Driver of SUV murders man on bicycle in Paris
October 21, 2024 6:33 AM Subscribe
A driver who ran over a cyclist following an altercation in central Paris has been charged with murder in a case that has shocked France.
On Friday afternoon, a 52-year-old driver was charged with murder in relation to the shocking incident, which according to witnesses and the local police saw the motorist deliberately drive over 27-year-old cyclist Paul Varry, crushing him to death, after the cyclist had banged on his Mercedes SUV when the driver had veered into an unprotected cycle lane, driving over the rider’s foot. –road.cc
I think using terms like "dispute" or "altercation" to describe what's detailed here is sanewashing. The driver assaulted the cyclist, then killed the cyclist when the cyclist had the temerity to complain about the assault.
"Lizzie Borden implicated in ax-focused dispute with parents."
posted by Western Infidels at 6:46 AM on October 21, 2024 [72 favorites]
"Lizzie Borden implicated in ax-focused dispute with parents."
posted by Western Infidels at 6:46 AM on October 21, 2024 [72 favorites]
Notably, "Ariel M." ran over Paul Varry after illegally entering the bike lane to bypass other cars, after striking Paul Varry once initially, and with his own teenage daughter in the car.
His claim that he has never been a "thug" does not pass the smell test. These are the behaviors of a maximally entitled person accustomed to using whatever situational power he has to trample on others.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:48 AM on October 21, 2024 [28 favorites]
His claim that he has never been a "thug" does not pass the smell test. These are the behaviors of a maximally entitled person accustomed to using whatever situational power he has to trample on others.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:48 AM on October 21, 2024 [28 favorites]
“Paris mayor Anne Hidalgo said that "it is unacceptable to die in this day and age while cycling in Paris, at 27 years old". “
Fuck that, Anne. It is unacceptable to kill cyclists, it is unacceptable for drivers to hit cyclists. This is not a thing that just happens, the man did not just die. He was killed. Not by an SUV. By a driver. The driver killed him. Say the fucking words, don't try and obfuscate this.
posted by Dysk at 6:51 AM on October 21, 2024 [44 favorites]
Fuck that, Anne. It is unacceptable to kill cyclists, it is unacceptable for drivers to hit cyclists. This is not a thing that just happens, the man did not just die. He was killed. Not by an SUV. By a driver. The driver killed him. Say the fucking words, don't try and obfuscate this.
posted by Dysk at 6:51 AM on October 21, 2024 [44 favorites]
These are the behaviors of a maximally entitled person accustomed to using whatever situational power he has to trample on others.
I've come to think there's something about the very experience of driving that systematically makes everyone who engages in it dumber and more brutal. I include myself in this.
posted by reedbird_hill at 6:52 AM on October 21, 2024 [60 favorites]
I've come to think there's something about the very experience of driving that systematically makes everyone who engages in it dumber and more brutal. I include myself in this.
posted by reedbird_hill at 6:52 AM on October 21, 2024 [60 favorites]
Ariel M., a sales manager in the tech sector and father of four, had since been "thinking much more about the young man, who is the same age as his son, than about himself", Cohen said.
Yes, well, the best time to do that would have been before murdering him, as a prelude to not murdering him. Thinking about him is a little pointless now that he has in fact been murdered, by the thinker.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:56 AM on October 21, 2024 [34 favorites]
Yes, well, the best time to do that would have been before murdering him, as a prelude to not murdering him. Thinking about him is a little pointless now that he has in fact been murdered, by the thinker.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:56 AM on October 21, 2024 [34 favorites]
My sample wasn't very rigorous, but I saw fewer SUVs there than I see in America -- so maybe there's also a self-selected Jerk Factor at play here when it's an SUV and nat, say, a little Fiat?
(A Parisienne friend of mine was badly injured while riding her bike last year, but it was an incautious taxi passenger and not a driver who hurt her.)
posted by wenestvedt at 7:09 AM on October 21, 2024
(A Parisienne friend of mine was badly injured while riding her bike last year, but it was an incautious taxi passenger and not a driver who hurt her.)
posted by wenestvedt at 7:09 AM on October 21, 2024
Honestly, Dysk, it hadn't occurred to me to expect better of Hidalgo's comments. I know she's on the side of people on bikes and I was busy imagining what Kai Wegner would say if this happened in Berlin (or Doug Ford in Toronto, or Eric Adams in NYC). At best they'd say nothing. More likely they'd invent some driver-excusing fake story about the cyclist and arrest people at the moment of silence.
I also like the deputy mayor's comments at the end of the road.cc article: “What happened last night is horrifying … This young man is a new victim of road violence. Cars can drive you mad. Cars kill. Cyclists and pedestrians are their first victims.”
posted by daveliepmann at 7:14 AM on October 21, 2024 [11 favorites]
I also like the deputy mayor's comments at the end of the road.cc article: “What happened last night is horrifying … This young man is a new victim of road violence. Cars can drive you mad. Cars kill. Cyclists and pedestrians are their first victims.”
posted by daveliepmann at 7:14 AM on October 21, 2024 [11 favorites]
Last year, 226 cyclists died on French roads.
JFC
posted by chavenet at 7:14 AM on October 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
JFC
posted by chavenet at 7:14 AM on October 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
This is why bollards, Jersey barriers or other protective mechanisms which are not easily if at all traversable by vehicles should be required along all bike and pedestrian pathways. Paint, tiny curbs and plastic bollards are not enough. Cars need to be damaged and/or destroyed when they attempt to do shit like this.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:17 AM on October 21, 2024 [43 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:17 AM on October 21, 2024 [43 favorites]
Cyclists are the only mode of transport that has shown no decline in fatalities over the past
decade. The number of cyclist fatalities over the past decade fluctuated between 1900 and 2100.
Given that the number of cyclist fatalities has remained stable, while the total number of road fatalities in the same period decreased by 23%, the proportion of cyclist fatalities within the total number
of fatalities has increased, from 7% in 2010 to 9% in 2019. Hence, almost one in ten registered of
all road fatalities in the EU are now cyclists.
from European Road Safety Observatory Facts and Figures – Cyclists - 2021 [PDF]
posted by chavenet at 7:18 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
decade. The number of cyclist fatalities over the past decade fluctuated between 1900 and 2100.
Given that the number of cyclist fatalities has remained stable, while the total number of road fatalities in the same period decreased by 23%, the proportion of cyclist fatalities within the total number
of fatalities has increased, from 7% in 2010 to 9% in 2019. Hence, almost one in ten registered of
all road fatalities in the EU are now cyclists.
from European Road Safety Observatory Facts and Figures – Cyclists - 2021 [PDF]
posted by chavenet at 7:18 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
I hope that murderer's daughter disowns him.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:20 AM on October 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:20 AM on October 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
I don't think Hidalgo has anything to apologize for. She's done more to advance cycling in her city than just about anyone. Bikes are now used for trips more than twice as often as cars in Paris. It's been a dramatic change.
As someone living in Texas, the shocking thing to me is not that a cyclist was murdered. What's shocking is that the driver was charged with murder.
posted by adamrice at 7:20 AM on October 21, 2024 [55 favorites]
As someone living in Texas, the shocking thing to me is not that a cyclist was murdered. What's shocking is that the driver was charged with murder.
posted by adamrice at 7:20 AM on October 21, 2024 [55 favorites]
As someone living in Texas, the shocking thing to me is not that a cyclist was murdered. What's shocking is that the driver was charged with murder.
We need to adopt this energy in the US.
posted by Atreides at 7:23 AM on October 21, 2024 [16 favorites]
We need to adopt this energy in the US.
posted by Atreides at 7:23 AM on October 21, 2024 [16 favorites]
I guess I've been UK/US-pilled, because I clicked the link expecting the vibe of the article to be "How could they *think* about charging this man with murder, surely it was self-defense/an accident/vehicular manslaughter- he banged on his bonnet!"
Horrible incident but heartening to see solidarity for the cyclist. Hopefully it will swing the scales ever more towards the micro-mobility side of the way we think about society.
.
posted by Static Vagabond at 7:23 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Horrible incident but heartening to see solidarity for the cyclist. Hopefully it will swing the scales ever more towards the micro-mobility side of the way we think about society.
.
posted by Static Vagabond at 7:23 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
>What's shocking is that the driver was charged with murder.
Meanwhile in Boston, a driver killed a cyclist *ON THE SIDEWALK* and police just let them go. When questioned about it, police admonished reporters for characterizing the driver as dangerous.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:29 AM on October 21, 2024 [35 favorites]
Meanwhile in Boston, a driver killed a cyclist *ON THE SIDEWALK* and police just let them go. When questioned about it, police admonished reporters for characterizing the driver as dangerous.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:29 AM on October 21, 2024 [35 favorites]
This past weekend was homecoming at Howard University, and traffic near the campus was very bad. As I was riding in an unprotected bike lane nearby (11th St NW, for people who know DC) a car ahead of me swerved into the bike lane to get around stopped traffic ahead of it. But then the car got stuck at the next traffic light after only gaining three or four car lengths, and then it was further stuck when the light changed because crossing traffic blocked the box. So I took the whole road ahead of the offending car and made sure to swerve from side to side so they couldn’t pass me on that block, only getting out of the way when I caught up to the traffic stopped at the next intersection. It wasn’t like they were going to get anywhere any faster if I hadn’t done that, but I felt like I needed to make the point.
I didn’t see this news from Paris until after I’d done that. It certainly seems more ill advised in retrospect than it did at the time.
posted by fedward at 7:29 AM on October 21, 2024 [8 favorites]
I didn’t see this news from Paris until after I’d done that. It certainly seems more ill advised in retrospect than it did at the time.
posted by fedward at 7:29 AM on October 21, 2024 [8 favorites]
Cars can drive you mad. Cars kill. Cyclists and pedestrians are their first victims.
Fuck that, again. Cars don't kill people. Drivers kill people. With their cars. Pedestrians and cyclists are victims of car drivers, not of cars themselves.
Hold the guy who did a murder responsible for his actions. We don't say "a baseball bat broke a man's arm" or "a knife stabbed a girl", so don't fucking say that cars hit people, that SUVs kill people. It's the fucking drivers.
posted by Dysk at 7:42 AM on October 21, 2024 [13 favorites]
Fuck that, again. Cars don't kill people. Drivers kill people. With their cars. Pedestrians and cyclists are victims of car drivers, not of cars themselves.
Hold the guy who did a murder responsible for his actions. We don't say "a baseball bat broke a man's arm" or "a knife stabbed a girl", so don't fucking say that cars hit people, that SUVs kill people. It's the fucking drivers.
posted by Dysk at 7:42 AM on October 21, 2024 [13 favorites]
I mean he is in jail right now. I don't think there's really a danger that the car will be found guilty rather than the driver.
posted by jy4m at 7:47 AM on October 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 7:47 AM on October 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
Cars don't kill people. Drivers kill people.
I hear your point. I, too, rally against passive-voice headlines wherein people on bikes get right-hooked by apparently no one.
At the same time, while this case is about a murderer using a ready-to-hand weapon, most traffic violence is about infrastructure, not personal guilt. How we design streets is usually far more important than assigning blame. To bring it back to this case: a different street design could have made it impossible for this conflict to have happened at all. I'm curious if anyone familiar with this particular street can weigh in on the design trade-offs which lead to such a low curb.
posted by daveliepmann at 7:54 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
I hear your point. I, too, rally against passive-voice headlines wherein people on bikes get right-hooked by apparently no one.
At the same time, while this case is about a murderer using a ready-to-hand weapon, most traffic violence is about infrastructure, not personal guilt. How we design streets is usually far more important than assigning blame. To bring it back to this case: a different street design could have made it impossible for this conflict to have happened at all. I'm curious if anyone familiar with this particular street can weigh in on the design trade-offs which lead to such a low curb.
posted by daveliepmann at 7:54 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
Fuck that, Anne. It is unacceptable to kill cyclists,
She's the mayor. It is not appropriate for her to comment much on the criminal case that's about to play out.
It is, however, very much in her bailiwick to use this crime as a prompt to deploy lots more passive infrastructure that makes this kind of crime infeasible. Bollards ahoy!
posted by ocschwar at 7:54 AM on October 21, 2024 [16 favorites]
Fuck that, again. Cars don't kill people. Drivers kill people. With their cars. Pedestrians and cyclists are victims of car drivers, not of cars themselves.
Vehicular infrastructure incentivizes car usage and a lack of protections puts everyone not in a car at risk of being killed. Cars amplify aggression both through their physical size and weight and through the psychological effect of basically being at the helm of an indestructible robot. So while, no, cars do not of their own volition kill people (yet), their existence and effects absolutely do. Pedestrians and cyclists are victims of car culture and automotive infrastructural precedence. Those things do kill people, and you can't solve that problem by just jailing the drivers.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:03 AM on October 21, 2024 [13 favorites]
Vehicular infrastructure incentivizes car usage and a lack of protections puts everyone not in a car at risk of being killed. Cars amplify aggression both through their physical size and weight and through the psychological effect of basically being at the helm of an indestructible robot. So while, no, cars do not of their own volition kill people (yet), their existence and effects absolutely do. Pedestrians and cyclists are victims of car culture and automotive infrastructural precedence. Those things do kill people, and you can't solve that problem by just jailing the drivers.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:03 AM on October 21, 2024 [13 favorites]
you can't solve that problem by just jailing the drivers.
Jail enough of them you can.
Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive. We can focus on the structural issues while finding murderers responsible for murder, not their tools. A man did a murder. We also should have properly separated bike lanes, but that doesn't change the fact that the cyclist was killed by a driver, not passively hit by a car.
posted by Dysk at 8:14 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
Jail enough of them you can.
Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive. We can focus on the structural issues while finding murderers responsible for murder, not their tools. A man did a murder. We also should have properly separated bike lanes, but that doesn't change the fact that the cyclist was killed by a driver, not passively hit by a car.
posted by Dysk at 8:14 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
I imagine it would be laughably easy to find all the other car users whose bodily feelings have extended to their vehicle to such an unhealthy extent that they react to a hand on their car like they would to a punch to their face. It might be difficult to count them all and help them return to their own bodies though.
Not that the problems here started with the hand-on-car moment, but still.
posted by Ashenmote at 8:17 AM on October 21, 2024
Not that the problems here started with the hand-on-car moment, but still.
posted by Ashenmote at 8:17 AM on October 21, 2024
If you're a pedestrian or cyclist on or even near where cars are traveling, you're at risk. Punishing drivers for intentionally injuring or killing is a good first step, but it won't reduce that risk significantly. Short of banning cars entirely, separation is the only solution but that requires a lot of work and expense that isn't likely going to happen in car-centric places.
posted by tommasz at 8:19 AM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 8:19 AM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
“Paris mayor Anne Hidalgo said that "it is unacceptable to die in this day and age while cycling in Paris, at 27 years old". “
Fuck that, Anne. It is unacceptable to kill cyclists [...] Say the fucking words, don't try and obfuscate this.
I get the passion but also this is one random quote that a journalist decided to include. She probably said some other things too, you know? And it's important to condemn the murderer but it's also important to raise empathy for the actual victim, who has died, and encourage people to think from that perspective ("I don't want to live in a country where this can happen to me").
(Sorry if I seem nitpicky, we're living in a time where it feels like all immediate passion and fury and too little fact checking or moderation of intensity, and I think that's a real problem in itself and simultaneously find myself doing it too)
posted by trig at 8:20 AM on October 21, 2024 [12 favorites]
Fuck that, Anne. It is unacceptable to kill cyclists [...] Say the fucking words, don't try and obfuscate this.
I get the passion but also this is one random quote that a journalist decided to include. She probably said some other things too, you know? And it's important to condemn the murderer but it's also important to raise empathy for the actual victim, who has died, and encourage people to think from that perspective ("I don't want to live in a country where this can happen to me").
(Sorry if I seem nitpicky, we're living in a time where it feels like all immediate passion and fury and too little fact checking or moderation of intensity, and I think that's a real problem in itself and simultaneously find myself doing it too)
posted by trig at 8:20 AM on October 21, 2024 [12 favorites]
I didn’t see this news from Paris until after I’d done that. It certainly seems more ill advised in retrospect than it did at the time.
Yes, I'm feeling a bit of this myself. Last week after I dropped my son off at school I was cycling a block from home and a woman angrily honked at me because I was riding outside of the door zone. I flipped her off. The guy driving behind her decided to intentionally hit me with the side mirror of his truck and I slapped hard on the side of his vehicle. He didn't recognize me, but when I walked my dog about ten minutes later he was parked in the crosswalk at the end of my block, seemingly waiting for me.
posted by Captaintripps at 8:22 AM on October 21, 2024 [9 favorites]
Yes, I'm feeling a bit of this myself. Last week after I dropped my son off at school I was cycling a block from home and a woman angrily honked at me because I was riding outside of the door zone. I flipped her off. The guy driving behind her decided to intentionally hit me with the side mirror of his truck and I slapped hard on the side of his vehicle. He didn't recognize me, but when I walked my dog about ten minutes later he was parked in the crosswalk at the end of my block, seemingly waiting for me.
posted by Captaintripps at 8:22 AM on October 21, 2024 [9 favorites]
Marshal McLuhan's book Understanding Media had the full title "Understanding media: the extensions of man."
And he had a chapter about the automobile.
If you've ever had the chilling experience of a skid, the terrifying adrenaline surge during that second where it is clear the car is no longer under your control, you know the dude was onto something. The car is an extension of our bodies. An extra body part.
No law is going to change how when you're driving, the car feels like an extension of your body. It's too wired into the brain for that. But bollards and narrow lanes mean you'll be held accountable at the repair shop rather than the court house, and that is much more effective.
posted by ocschwar at 8:37 AM on October 21, 2024 [10 favorites]
And he had a chapter about the automobile.
If you've ever had the chilling experience of a skid, the terrifying adrenaline surge during that second where it is clear the car is no longer under your control, you know the dude was onto something. The car is an extension of our bodies. An extra body part.
No law is going to change how when you're driving, the car feels like an extension of your body. It's too wired into the brain for that. But bollards and narrow lanes mean you'll be held accountable at the repair shop rather than the court house, and that is much more effective.
posted by ocschwar at 8:37 AM on October 21, 2024 [10 favorites]
But bollards and narrow lanes mean you'll be held accountable at the repair shop rather than the court house, and that is much more effective.
We can do both. We should do both. Bollards aren't free to repair, that burden should be on the driver that hits them. The repair shop is not a substitute for the courts.
posted by Dysk at 8:43 AM on October 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
We can do both. We should do both. Bollards aren't free to repair, that burden should be on the driver that hits them. The repair shop is not a substitute for the courts.
posted by Dysk at 8:43 AM on October 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
you can't solve that problem by just jailing the drivers.
Jail enough of them you can.
I seriously doubt it. Beyond that it is a wildly inefficient approach to solving a systemic infrastructural problem.
Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive.
On that we agree. Put everyone who harms (or even threatens to harm) someone with their vehicle in jail or at least dire financial straits.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:44 AM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
Jail enough of them you can.
I seriously doubt it. Beyond that it is a wildly inefficient approach to solving a systemic infrastructural problem.
Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive.
On that we agree. Put everyone who harms (or even threatens to harm) someone with their vehicle in jail or at least dire financial straits.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:44 AM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
Mass motoring ... gives and supports in everyone the illusion that each individual can seek his or her own benefit at the expense of everyone else. Take the cruel and aggressive selfishness of the driver who at any moment is figuratively killing the “others,” who appear merely as physical obstacles to his or her own speed.
from "The Social Ideology of the Motorcar"
posted by entropone at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
from "The Social Ideology of the Motorcar"
posted by entropone at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
His claim that he has never been a "thug" does not pass the smell test.
I suspect "I have never been a thug." = "It's all right because I'm white."
posted by jonp72 at 9:00 AM on October 21, 2024 [9 favorites]
I suspect "I have never been a thug." = "It's all right because I'm white."
posted by jonp72 at 9:00 AM on October 21, 2024 [9 favorites]
The repair shop is not a substitute for the courts.
Are you kidding me? A bollard doesn't racially profile. A bollard doesn't stop working because of mean tweets. A bollard's effect is not blunted by which status markers you wear when you go to court to contest its decision.
At the repair shop, they might smile and nod while you tell them the accident was't your fault, but so long as they have no frequent customer discount, they'll do a better and fairer job to adjust your driving.
posted by ocschwar at 9:07 AM on October 21, 2024 [18 favorites]
Are you kidding me? A bollard doesn't racially profile. A bollard doesn't stop working because of mean tweets. A bollard's effect is not blunted by which status markers you wear when you go to court to contest its decision.
At the repair shop, they might smile and nod while you tell them the accident was't your fault, but so long as they have no frequent customer discount, they'll do a better and fairer job to adjust your driving.
posted by ocschwar at 9:07 AM on October 21, 2024 [18 favorites]
I've come to think there's something about the very experience of driving that systematically makes everyone who engages in it dumber and more brutal. I include myself in this.I very strongly believe this, and that it’s due to the way people treat their cars as extensions of their bodies which leads to a weird situation where anything which impedes or risks damage to the vehicle is treated as a personal attack but without the normal social cues which would moderate in-person interactions. Very few people would yell at a parent pushing a stroller because they had to walk slightly slower while they crossed but many drivers will get apoplectic about having to wait an extra couple seconds at a crosswalk instead of the next red light.
It’s also not a surprise that this was an SUV driver: people pay a large premium to own vehicles which are more dangerous to everyone else, and intimidation is one of the strongest appeals and they’re heavily marketed to that demographic. Not everyone who buys one is an aggressive driver but most aggressive drivers are drawn to the increasingly overt subtext that your vehicle can be a weapon.
posted by adamsc at 9:22 AM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
RE: "thug" and "acceptable to die" quotes: Were any of the quotes that being dissected here uttered in English? I assumed we are reading translations. I like to complain about the passive voice headlines as much as the next armchair activist, but I don't speak French so can't really know what the mayor said.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 9:32 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 9:32 AM on October 21, 2024 [7 favorites]
It’s also not a surprise that this was an SUV driver: people pay a large premium to own vehicles which are more dangerous to everyone else, and intimidation is one of the strongest appeals and they’re heavily marketed to that demographic.
The long-running popularity of SUVs makes me believe that we have completely unlearned the lesson of Ralph Nader's Unsafe at Any Speed. Nader's book was about how all the tail fins & jagged oversized hood ornaments of 1950s and early 60s cars made fatal accidents more likely. The intellectual influence of Nader's book is that he shifted the focus from blaming irresponsibility by drivers and pedestrians in favor of the unnecessary death and suffering created by unsafe design.
I think we're back where we were in the days of tail fins on every Edsel. Everybody knows that the tail fins and hood ornaments of that era are totally ridiculous and nonfunctional now, but the tinted windows, gigantic tires, are the overly high-off-the-ground "trucks" of our era are just as stupid and nonfunctional. Is SUV design is any less focused on nonfunctional features that flatter the ego of the auto buyer than those cockamamie tail fins from 1955?
posted by jonp72 at 9:35 AM on October 21, 2024 [10 favorites]
The long-running popularity of SUVs makes me believe that we have completely unlearned the lesson of Ralph Nader's Unsafe at Any Speed. Nader's book was about how all the tail fins & jagged oversized hood ornaments of 1950s and early 60s cars made fatal accidents more likely. The intellectual influence of Nader's book is that he shifted the focus from blaming irresponsibility by drivers and pedestrians in favor of the unnecessary death and suffering created by unsafe design.
I think we're back where we were in the days of tail fins on every Edsel. Everybody knows that the tail fins and hood ornaments of that era are totally ridiculous and nonfunctional now, but the tinted windows, gigantic tires, are the overly high-off-the-ground "trucks" of our era are just as stupid and nonfunctional. Is SUV design is any less focused on nonfunctional features that flatter the ego of the auto buyer than those cockamamie tail fins from 1955?
posted by jonp72 at 9:35 AM on October 21, 2024 [10 favorites]
As someone living in Texas, the shocking thing to me is not that a cyclist was murdered. What's shocking is that the driver was charged with murder.
Los Angeles out here with the "for me it was Tuesday" meme.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 9:35 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Los Angeles out here with the "for me it was Tuesday" meme.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 9:35 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Are you kidding me? A bollard doesn't racially profile. A bollard doesn't stop working because of mean tweets. A bollard's effect is not blunted by which status markers you wear when you go to court to contest its decision.
Did you miss the bit where I said I wanted both, and my objection was about the rest of us having to bear part of the cost? Yes, make them do the repair shop thing. But also make them do the courts, to pay for the bollard repair. Those of us who don't drive are already paying far too much to subsidise car infrastructure as is. It's not a substitute, it's an addition.
posted by Dysk at 9:40 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Did you miss the bit where I said I wanted both, and my objection was about the rest of us having to bear part of the cost? Yes, make them do the repair shop thing. But also make them do the courts, to pay for the bollard repair. Those of us who don't drive are already paying far too much to subsidise car infrastructure as is. It's not a substitute, it's an addition.
posted by Dysk at 9:40 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
No law is going to change how when you're driving, the car feels like an extension of your body. It's too wired into the brain for that. But bollards and narrow lanes mean you'll be held accountable at the repair shop rather than the court house, and that is much more effective.
I think I get what you're trying to say here, but jesus, dude, that is a deeply bleak and fucked-up way of looking at urban infrastructure.
Drivers are gonna do insane, homicidal things, no matter how many laws you pass prohibiting vehicular homicide, so we might as well give up trying to stop it via the justice system, and let the fear of denting the bumpers of their 5000-pound-bludgeoning-weapons be the deterrent instead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That is not a world I want to inhabit, as a pedestrian or biker or driver.
posted by Mayor West at 9:51 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
I think I get what you're trying to say here, but jesus, dude, that is a deeply bleak and fucked-up way of looking at urban infrastructure.
Drivers are gonna do insane, homicidal things, no matter how many laws you pass prohibiting vehicular homicide, so we might as well give up trying to stop it via the justice system, and let the fear of denting the bumpers of their 5000-pound-bludgeoning-weapons be the deterrent instead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That is not a world I want to inhabit, as a pedestrian or biker or driver.
posted by Mayor West at 9:51 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
I very strongly believe this, and that it’s due to the way people treat their cars as extensions of their bodies which leads to a weird situation where anything which impedes or risks damage to the vehicle is treated as a personal attack but without the normal social cues which would moderate in-person interactions. Very few people would yell at a parent pushing a stroller because they had to walk slightly slower while they crossed but many drivers will get apoplectic about having to wait an extra couple seconds at a crosswalk instead of the next red light.
I can definitely relate to where you’re coming from, as I used to strongly believe in this perspective as well. However, after experiencing daily bicycle and pedestrian commutes in both Los Angeles and Amsterdam, my views have evolved.
In Amsterdam, the entitlement of many bicycle riders rivals what I experienced with car drivers in LA. While the stakes are different—cars being far deadlier than bicycles—the pattern of behavior often feels similar. I’ve noticed that, just as SUVs can be intimidating to other road users, the electric fat bikes in Amsterdam seem to fill that same role here. (And generally, bicyclists to the rest of people moving from A to B.) They dominate shared spaces, and their speed and size can feel quite threatening to pedestrians or other cyclists.
What this highlights for me is that the real issue is less about individual behavior and more about the systemic design of our transportation systems. Cars, especially SUVs, are inherently more lethal, and road designs often prioritize vehicle speed and convenience over the safety of more vulnerable users. The lethality of vehicles, not just their size or the aggression of drivers, should remain a key part of the conversation, along with how we design our roads to either encourage or discourage these behaviors.
I believe that it's a people problem that turns up in any aggregate where there is a clear pecking order and some kind of contention over a shared resource.
That said, I hope that this murderer serves as an example to drivers to make them Amsterdam-style anxious about bicyclists (and pedestrians) saving some lives.
posted by minedev at 9:56 AM on October 21, 2024 [8 favorites]
I can definitely relate to where you’re coming from, as I used to strongly believe in this perspective as well. However, after experiencing daily bicycle and pedestrian commutes in both Los Angeles and Amsterdam, my views have evolved.
In Amsterdam, the entitlement of many bicycle riders rivals what I experienced with car drivers in LA. While the stakes are different—cars being far deadlier than bicycles—the pattern of behavior often feels similar. I’ve noticed that, just as SUVs can be intimidating to other road users, the electric fat bikes in Amsterdam seem to fill that same role here. (And generally, bicyclists to the rest of people moving from A to B.) They dominate shared spaces, and their speed and size can feel quite threatening to pedestrians or other cyclists.
What this highlights for me is that the real issue is less about individual behavior and more about the systemic design of our transportation systems. Cars, especially SUVs, are inherently more lethal, and road designs often prioritize vehicle speed and convenience over the safety of more vulnerable users. The lethality of vehicles, not just their size or the aggression of drivers, should remain a key part of the conversation, along with how we design our roads to either encourage or discourage these behaviors.
I believe that it's a people problem that turns up in any aggregate where there is a clear pecking order and some kind of contention over a shared resource.
That said, I hope that this murderer serves as an example to drivers to make them Amsterdam-style anxious about bicyclists (and pedestrians) saving some lives.
posted by minedev at 9:56 AM on October 21, 2024 [8 favorites]
All depends on what kind of urban infrastructure you have.
posted by ocschwar at 10:00 AM on October 21, 2024
posted by ocschwar at 10:00 AM on October 21, 2024
I've come to think there's something about the very experience of driving that systematically makes everyone who engages in it dumber and more brutal.
Adorno: "which auto-driver has not felt the temptation, in the power of the motor, to run over the vermin of the street – passersby, children, bicyclists?"
Repo Man: "The more you drive, the less intelligent you are."
posted by doctornemo at 10:30 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Adorno: "which auto-driver has not felt the temptation, in the power of the motor, to run over the vermin of the street – passersby, children, bicyclists?"
Repo Man: "The more you drive, the less intelligent you are."
posted by doctornemo at 10:30 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Holy hell, Captaintripps. That's awful.
I try to bike 3-4 days/week, here in northeastern Virginia. Some areas are nice to drive in, with substantial bike lanes or really wide sidewalks. Others mean we bikers have to share the road, and that's usually terrifying.
posted by doctornemo at 10:34 AM on October 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
I try to bike 3-4 days/week, here in northeastern Virginia. Some areas are nice to drive in, with substantial bike lanes or really wide sidewalks. Others mean we bikers have to share the road, and that's usually terrifying.
posted by doctornemo at 10:34 AM on October 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
SUVs and high off the road vehicles are non-functional and even anti-functional — when the roads are even close to being in good condition.
But when roads are allowed to decay into potholes, broken pavement, and accumulated debris they become highly functional, and they accelerate the process of decay because they exert so much more impulsive and destructive counterforce on the roadways when they hit any kind of bump or obstacle.
They are actively pushing the rest of us toward the Road Warrior dystopia their drivers are already mentally inhabiting just by being on the road.
posted by jamjam at 10:35 AM on October 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
But when roads are allowed to decay into potholes, broken pavement, and accumulated debris they become highly functional, and they accelerate the process of decay because they exert so much more impulsive and destructive counterforce on the roadways when they hit any kind of bump or obstacle.
They are actively pushing the rest of us toward the Road Warrior dystopia their drivers are already mentally inhabiting just by being on the road.
posted by jamjam at 10:35 AM on October 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
Here's the full Adorno passage:
19
Do not knock. – Technification is making gestures in the meantime precise and rough – and thereby human beings. They drive all hesitation out of gestures, all consideration, all propriety [Gesittung]. They are subjected to the irreconcilable – ahistorical, as it were – requirements of things. Thus one no longer learns to close a door softly, discreetly and yet firmly. Those of autos and frigidaires have to be slammed, others have the tendency to snap back by themselves and thus imposing on those who enter the incivility of not looking behind them, of not protecting the interior of the house which receives them. One cannot account for the newest human types without an understanding of the things in the environs which they continually encounter, all the way into their most secret innervations. What does it mean for the subject, that there are no window shutters anymore, which can be opened, but only frames to be brusquely shoved, no gentle latches but only handles to be turned, no front lawn, no barrier against the street, no wall around the garden? And which auto-driver has not felt the temptation, in the power of the motor, to run over the vermin of the street – passersby, children, bicyclists? In the movements which machines demand from their operators, lies already that which is violent, crashing, propulsively unceasing in Fascist mistreatment. Not the least fault for the dying out of experience is due to the fact that things assume a form under the law of their purposiveness which restrict their interaction to mere application, without the surplus – were it that of freedom of behavior, were it that of the autonomy of the thing – which might survive as the kernel of experience, because it is not consumed by the moment of action.
posted by doctornemo at 10:35 AM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
19
Do not knock. – Technification is making gestures in the meantime precise and rough – and thereby human beings. They drive all hesitation out of gestures, all consideration, all propriety [Gesittung]. They are subjected to the irreconcilable – ahistorical, as it were – requirements of things. Thus one no longer learns to close a door softly, discreetly and yet firmly. Those of autos and frigidaires have to be slammed, others have the tendency to snap back by themselves and thus imposing on those who enter the incivility of not looking behind them, of not protecting the interior of the house which receives them. One cannot account for the newest human types without an understanding of the things in the environs which they continually encounter, all the way into their most secret innervations. What does it mean for the subject, that there are no window shutters anymore, which can be opened, but only frames to be brusquely shoved, no gentle latches but only handles to be turned, no front lawn, no barrier against the street, no wall around the garden? And which auto-driver has not felt the temptation, in the power of the motor, to run over the vermin of the street – passersby, children, bicyclists? In the movements which machines demand from their operators, lies already that which is violent, crashing, propulsively unceasing in Fascist mistreatment. Not the least fault for the dying out of experience is due to the fact that things assume a form under the law of their purposiveness which restrict their interaction to mere application, without the surplus – were it that of freedom of behavior, were it that of the autonomy of the thing – which might survive as the kernel of experience, because it is not consumed by the moment of action.
posted by doctornemo at 10:35 AM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
"Is SUV design is any less focused on nonfunctional features that flatter the ego of the auto buyer than those cockamamie tail fins from 1955?"
Those were "decoration/styling". The SUV (especially Mercedes) are "if we get in a collision I'll *crush* you" subtext. In Paris. IMHO
In rural areas, different opinion.
posted by aleph at 10:41 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Those were "decoration/styling". The SUV (especially Mercedes) are "if we get in a collision I'll *crush* you" subtext. In Paris. IMHO
In rural areas, different opinion.
posted by aleph at 10:41 AM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Marshal McLuhan's book Understanding Media had the full title "Understanding media: the extensions of man."
Yep.
I've been car free my whole life. Yeah, I have to ask friends to help me move, and sometimes I need help going to the store to stock up, but I get into a car as a passenger maybe once a month or less.
I've talked a little about my history on bikes and transit and how I grew up in LA, arguably the car-culture capital of the whole planet.
I can't remember exactly when I decided I wanted a car free life but it was really young, possibly before I was even a teenager and eligible for a learner's permit.
I do know that a huge part of my decision was living in a huge haze of smog where even in the 80s it was so bad even in the coastal suburban city where I grew up that you could barely see down the block or across one of the huge 4+1 lane intersections.
Another huge part of it was noticing how everyone was pissed off all the time and observing how it often had everything to do with their commutes, being stuck in traffic and more. I'd go to work by bike and get there relaxed and refreshed, albeit a little sweaty, while my co-workers were grumpy and overstimulated from driving to work.
When you're outside the "car brain" bubble for that long it all starts to look a little ridiculous and insane that people drive around in multi-ton vehicles that are very often status symbols of success and wealth, an extension of their personalities and even shiny trinkets like jewelry or fashion.
I've talked about many of these things before.
But one of the things I haven't talked about as much about why I don't want a car is:
I actually like driving. But I turn into a total fucking hoonigan as soon as I'm behind the wheel of a motorized vehicle and I don't like who I am when that happens.
Yeah, I can drive. Sure, I can parallel park. I can apex a turn like I've I grew up on an F1 track or World Rally Cup Route. I am a total monster on a go cart track. I'm absolutely ruthless in racing video games of all sorts ranging from Mario Kart to Dirt to TrackMania to Forza Motorsports. You can put me on a racing game and tracks I've never seen or played before and I'm probably going to win. I get full on racer's brain tunnel vision and I will nerf you right off the track without even noticing I did it just because you were in my way on a clean line.
When I was really into TrackMania Nations I was regularly placing in the top 50 on busy tracks and I was doing that with a keyboard, not a joystick or wheel.
I have a natural and really acute sense of physics and spatial awareness when it comes to piloting vehicles in general. In an alternate universe I'm probably a rally racer or something.
I will drive if it's an actual ER-worthy emergency, and that doesn't include taking over for someone too drunk to drive. I absolutely would drive if, say, i was evacuating an area due to a wildfire and stuff like that. I'll even drive on private property if someone just needs their car moved or whatever.
The last time I actually drove I was helping someone load up their rented U-haul box truck but they got it stuck in the mud, and it was sliding towards the house they were moving out of and couldn't get it out up the steep dirt/mud trail.
So I took over and Ken Block'ed that big, dumb, squishy underpowered box truck all the way back to the paved road spraying rooster tails of mud the whole way and reveling in the feel of knowing where the tires and traction were and keeping them on rails on the grippier and less muddy gravel edges of that muddy road.
And then I immediately parked it, turned off the engine, de-assed the vehicle and did like ten laps around the truck hooting and hollaring and waving my fists in the air because I was high as fuck on adrenaline.
Yeah, I know, I know, this sounds like a bunch of internet tough guy bragging from someone who technically doesn't drive, but pretty much every time I've done racing sim games with a group someone gets mad as fuck at me and are like "How the fuck are you even doing that?" because no one is expecting the gentle car free bike nerd to turn into an absolutely frothing, raging and ruthless monster on the (virtual) track.
I was like this on plain old human powered bicycles, too. My personal speed record on a bicycle is 65 MPH bombing a really steep and road which is absolutely not safe or sane on a 30 pound vehicle with contact patches the size of a quarter and rim brakes. And I will never, ever do that again because: What In The Actual Fuck.
And when I first built my ebike - which is technically the only powered vehicle I've personally owned - for the first month or two I was a total shitbird.
I mean I was very polite and safe about it when passing cyclists or pedestrians and had no issues slowing down to actual walking speeds - and in fact, I slow way more than I would on an unpowered bike - but that was actually an easy selfish and non-altruistic choice because it just meant I got to hammer my throttle and go "WEEEEEEEE" and zooming off again once the coast was clear.
And for that first month or three of that ebike I went totally racer brain and was often riding home from work after dark - sometimes even in the rain - on the totally empty late night trails trying to find the fastest line home.
I've had that ebike up to about 45 MPH on a long, flat paved road, and I still regularly get it up to 30 on gravel and dirt - which is nothing in a car or on a motorcycle, I know - but it is absolutely spicy and inadvisable on a no-suspension steel touring bike with skinny 35c wide tires.
At this point I actually have de-tuned my ebike drive to make it way more mellow and slower and got back to my roots of keeping it mellow and just riding it like a normal bike. It's just way more pleasant and chill.
I also do racer/driver brained things that are more mellow/slow like knowing and using every bump, line, slope an cant of the road or trail in front of me for maximum efficiency and "clean" riding. Even the simple act of coasting down a long, slow grade turns into a very active and engaging game for me where I'm pumping off of small features like I'm surfing the road to add energy to my momentum without using pedals or battery.
It's like I'm in the damn matrix and I can *feel* the code and physics and I can't turn it off.
Anyway. I'm going somewhere with all of this "I should have been a race car driver" bragging and nonsense. I'm really trying to convey how much I change when I get behind the wheel.
This is one of the real, main reasons why I don't want a car. As soon as I get behind the wheel I turn into a totally different person and some kind of Jekyll and Hyde monster.
And, frankly? I don't know how all of you drivers do it. People *do* change when they get behind the wheel of a motorized vehicle.
posted by loquacious at 10:46 AM on October 21, 2024 [9 favorites]
Yep.
I've been car free my whole life. Yeah, I have to ask friends to help me move, and sometimes I need help going to the store to stock up, but I get into a car as a passenger maybe once a month or less.
I've talked a little about my history on bikes and transit and how I grew up in LA, arguably the car-culture capital of the whole planet.
I can't remember exactly when I decided I wanted a car free life but it was really young, possibly before I was even a teenager and eligible for a learner's permit.
I do know that a huge part of my decision was living in a huge haze of smog where even in the 80s it was so bad even in the coastal suburban city where I grew up that you could barely see down the block or across one of the huge 4+1 lane intersections.
Another huge part of it was noticing how everyone was pissed off all the time and observing how it often had everything to do with their commutes, being stuck in traffic and more. I'd go to work by bike and get there relaxed and refreshed, albeit a little sweaty, while my co-workers were grumpy and overstimulated from driving to work.
When you're outside the "car brain" bubble for that long it all starts to look a little ridiculous and insane that people drive around in multi-ton vehicles that are very often status symbols of success and wealth, an extension of their personalities and even shiny trinkets like jewelry or fashion.
I've talked about many of these things before.
But one of the things I haven't talked about as much about why I don't want a car is:
I actually like driving. But I turn into a total fucking hoonigan as soon as I'm behind the wheel of a motorized vehicle and I don't like who I am when that happens.
Yeah, I can drive. Sure, I can parallel park. I can apex a turn like I've I grew up on an F1 track or World Rally Cup Route. I am a total monster on a go cart track. I'm absolutely ruthless in racing video games of all sorts ranging from Mario Kart to Dirt to TrackMania to Forza Motorsports. You can put me on a racing game and tracks I've never seen or played before and I'm probably going to win. I get full on racer's brain tunnel vision and I will nerf you right off the track without even noticing I did it just because you were in my way on a clean line.
When I was really into TrackMania Nations I was regularly placing in the top 50 on busy tracks and I was doing that with a keyboard, not a joystick or wheel.
I have a natural and really acute sense of physics and spatial awareness when it comes to piloting vehicles in general. In an alternate universe I'm probably a rally racer or something.
I will drive if it's an actual ER-worthy emergency, and that doesn't include taking over for someone too drunk to drive. I absolutely would drive if, say, i was evacuating an area due to a wildfire and stuff like that. I'll even drive on private property if someone just needs their car moved or whatever.
The last time I actually drove I was helping someone load up their rented U-haul box truck but they got it stuck in the mud, and it was sliding towards the house they were moving out of and couldn't get it out up the steep dirt/mud trail.
So I took over and Ken Block'ed that big, dumb, squishy underpowered box truck all the way back to the paved road spraying rooster tails of mud the whole way and reveling in the feel of knowing where the tires and traction were and keeping them on rails on the grippier and less muddy gravel edges of that muddy road.
And then I immediately parked it, turned off the engine, de-assed the vehicle and did like ten laps around the truck hooting and hollaring and waving my fists in the air because I was high as fuck on adrenaline.
Yeah, I know, I know, this sounds like a bunch of internet tough guy bragging from someone who technically doesn't drive, but pretty much every time I've done racing sim games with a group someone gets mad as fuck at me and are like "How the fuck are you even doing that?" because no one is expecting the gentle car free bike nerd to turn into an absolutely frothing, raging and ruthless monster on the (virtual) track.
I was like this on plain old human powered bicycles, too. My personal speed record on a bicycle is 65 MPH bombing a really steep and road which is absolutely not safe or sane on a 30 pound vehicle with contact patches the size of a quarter and rim brakes. And I will never, ever do that again because: What In The Actual Fuck.
And when I first built my ebike - which is technically the only powered vehicle I've personally owned - for the first month or two I was a total shitbird.
I mean I was very polite and safe about it when passing cyclists or pedestrians and had no issues slowing down to actual walking speeds - and in fact, I slow way more than I would on an unpowered bike - but that was actually an easy selfish and non-altruistic choice because it just meant I got to hammer my throttle and go "WEEEEEEEE" and zooming off again once the coast was clear.
And for that first month or three of that ebike I went totally racer brain and was often riding home from work after dark - sometimes even in the rain - on the totally empty late night trails trying to find the fastest line home.
I've had that ebike up to about 45 MPH on a long, flat paved road, and I still regularly get it up to 30 on gravel and dirt - which is nothing in a car or on a motorcycle, I know - but it is absolutely spicy and inadvisable on a no-suspension steel touring bike with skinny 35c wide tires.
At this point I actually have de-tuned my ebike drive to make it way more mellow and slower and got back to my roots of keeping it mellow and just riding it like a normal bike. It's just way more pleasant and chill.
I also do racer/driver brained things that are more mellow/slow like knowing and using every bump, line, slope an cant of the road or trail in front of me for maximum efficiency and "clean" riding. Even the simple act of coasting down a long, slow grade turns into a very active and engaging game for me where I'm pumping off of small features like I'm surfing the road to add energy to my momentum without using pedals or battery.
It's like I'm in the damn matrix and I can *feel* the code and physics and I can't turn it off.
Anyway. I'm going somewhere with all of this "I should have been a race car driver" bragging and nonsense. I'm really trying to convey how much I change when I get behind the wheel.
This is one of the real, main reasons why I don't want a car. As soon as I get behind the wheel I turn into a totally different person and some kind of Jekyll and Hyde monster.
And, frankly? I don't know how all of you drivers do it. People *do* change when they get behind the wheel of a motorized vehicle.
posted by loquacious at 10:46 AM on October 21, 2024 [9 favorites]
Repo Man: "The more you drive, the less intelligent you are."
I absolutely do some of my best thinking on the bus.
posted by reedbird_hill at 10:53 AM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
I absolutely do some of my best thinking on the bus.
posted by reedbird_hill at 10:53 AM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
"As soon as I get behind the wheel I turn into a totally different person and some kind of Jekyll and Hyde monster... I don't know how all of you drivers do it."
I'm old, I'm used to the transitions.
posted by aleph at 10:55 AM on October 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
I'm old, I'm used to the transitions.
posted by aleph at 10:55 AM on October 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
The quote in the article from Mayor Hidalgo (discussed above) was just one sentence from a longer statement. She also said, “These acts must be severely condemned.”
posted by mbrubeck at 11:07 AM on October 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 11:07 AM on October 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
Last year, 226 cyclists died on French roads.
JFC
posted by chavenet at 7:14 AM on October 21 [4 favorites +] [⚑]
That looks to be about one death per 1.17 billion automobile miles driven annually in France.
For comparison, the U.S. bicyclist death rate is about one per 3 billion automobiles driven annually.
posted by Kibbutz at 11:47 AM on October 21, 2024
JFC
posted by chavenet at 7:14 AM on October 21 [4 favorites +] [⚑]
That looks to be about one death per 1.17 billion automobile miles driven annually in France.
For comparison, the U.S. bicyclist death rate is about one per 3 billion automobiles driven annually.
posted by Kibbutz at 11:47 AM on October 21, 2024
Those numbers are meaningless without also including at least the number of cyclists too. There were 270 cyclist fatalities in the smaller country of the Netherlands but there are also a lot more cyclists!
posted by vacapinta at 11:59 AM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 11:59 AM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
I feel like if people started wearing robotic exoskeletons that made them super strong and fast, they'd turn into the pedestrian version of the Dutch ebike people. It is the power that makes people awful.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:34 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:34 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
I've come to think there's something about the very experience of driving that systematically makes everyone who engages in it dumber and more brutal. I include myself in this.
This has been known for so long. I keep thinking of the cartoon about Mr Walker and Mr Wheeler, in which Goofy transforms from mild mannered to reckless and predatory after getting into the driver's seat of a car. It came out in 1950; it's just about 75 years old now.
Why we can't seem to do anything about this is the true mystery.
posted by jb at 12:40 PM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
This has been known for so long. I keep thinking of the cartoon about Mr Walker and Mr Wheeler, in which Goofy transforms from mild mannered to reckless and predatory after getting into the driver's seat of a car. It came out in 1950; it's just about 75 years old now.
Why we can't seem to do anything about this is the true mystery.
posted by jb at 12:40 PM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
I believe that it's a people problem that turns up in any aggregate where there is a clear pecking order and some kind of contention over a shared resource.
I feel like if people started wearing robotic exoskeletons that made them super strong and fast, they'd turn into the pedestrian version of the Dutch ebike people. It is the power that makes people awful.
My experience of being repeatedly buzzed/hit/harassed by people on bikes, e-bikes, and motorized scooters here on the sidewalks and park trails of Chicago suggests the same. Don't get me wrong, the car drivers ALSO try to murder me every day, it's just so does literally every not-on-foot person I ever fucking meet. The minute people go even a little fast, the rage seems to follow.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:50 PM on October 21, 2024
I feel like if people started wearing robotic exoskeletons that made them super strong and fast, they'd turn into the pedestrian version of the Dutch ebike people. It is the power that makes people awful.
My experience of being repeatedly buzzed/hit/harassed by people on bikes, e-bikes, and motorized scooters here on the sidewalks and park trails of Chicago suggests the same. Don't get me wrong, the car drivers ALSO try to murder me every day, it's just so does literally every not-on-foot person I ever fucking meet. The minute people go even a little fast, the rage seems to follow.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:50 PM on October 21, 2024
And it doesn't help that the police have apparently stopped enforcing any rules about operating motorized vehicles on the sidewalk...
Maybe things really were better in the old days - in this case, 1966.
posted by sneebler at 1:04 PM on October 21, 2024
Maybe things really were better in the old days - in this case, 1966.
posted by sneebler at 1:04 PM on October 21, 2024
I don't know how all of you drivers do it. People *do* change when they get behind the wheel of a motorized vehicle.
It's true, and I am ashamed of how much of an asshole driver I often was when I was a younger man. Somehow, I dialled it back in middle age, and as I made it to 60 and hadn't killed or injured anyone, or had a serious collision, or been charged with anything in decades... I was grateful, and I'm channelling that gratitude into being a better driver.
For the record I detest most urban driving; it's a frustrating chore and unnecessary aggravation. I aim to do the least amount possible, and Mrs C has been great about doing most of it when necessary. We take transit to go right downtown. Now - a nice two-lane secondary highway through rolling hills - that's driving. I like that stuff.
I'm also a cyclist, with some urban experience, and I think that it's slowly getting better for bikes, but with growing pains as infrastructure and attitudes are slow to change.
On our first trip to Paris (2008) we did a half-day bike tour on cruiser-style bikes. Some of the riding in traffic was, um, exhilarating, but enjoyable otherwise. We were there again last fall. We didn't get the chance to rent bikes, but I did notice quite a few cyclists around, and the expanded cycling infrastructure. I hope to visit Paris again with enough time to do some biking there.
Anyway, I hope that SUV driver's name lives in infamy as the French poster-villain for criminally irresponsible driving.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:07 PM on October 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
It's true, and I am ashamed of how much of an asshole driver I often was when I was a younger man. Somehow, I dialled it back in middle age, and as I made it to 60 and hadn't killed or injured anyone, or had a serious collision, or been charged with anything in decades... I was grateful, and I'm channelling that gratitude into being a better driver.
For the record I detest most urban driving; it's a frustrating chore and unnecessary aggravation. I aim to do the least amount possible, and Mrs C has been great about doing most of it when necessary. We take transit to go right downtown. Now - a nice two-lane secondary highway through rolling hills - that's driving. I like that stuff.
I'm also a cyclist, with some urban experience, and I think that it's slowly getting better for bikes, but with growing pains as infrastructure and attitudes are slow to change.
On our first trip to Paris (2008) we did a half-day bike tour on cruiser-style bikes. Some of the riding in traffic was, um, exhilarating, but enjoyable otherwise. We were there again last fall. We didn't get the chance to rent bikes, but I did notice quite a few cyclists around, and the expanded cycling infrastructure. I hope to visit Paris again with enough time to do some biking there.
Anyway, I hope that SUV driver's name lives in infamy as the French poster-villain for criminally irresponsible driving.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:07 PM on October 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
Oh hey, we’ve gone from a cyclist being murdered to complaints about cyclists on sidewalks in 30 comments!
posted by Captaintripps at 1:08 PM on October 21, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by Captaintripps at 1:08 PM on October 21, 2024 [13 favorites]
I feel like if people started wearing robotic exoskeletons that made them super strong and fast,
This already exists, but pedestrians generally don't have weapons to fight. The walk vs stand escalator people, and NY businessy guy vs midwestern amble walking speed?
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:30 PM on October 21, 2024
This already exists, but pedestrians generally don't have weapons to fight. The walk vs stand escalator people, and NY businessy guy vs midwestern amble walking speed?
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:30 PM on October 21, 2024
Here's an interesting video about how people judge moral actions differently if you substitute "car" or "driving" for any other word. It's based on the study Motornomativity: How Social Norms Hide a Major Public Health Hazard.
Examples of "car" substitutions that completely change the average moral judgement:
"If someone leaves their belongings in the street and they get stolen, it's their own fault for leaving them there and the police shouldn't be expected to act" vs. "If someone leaves their car in the street and it gets stolen..."
"Risk is a natural part of working, and anybody working has to accept they could be seriously injured" vs. "Risk is a natural part of driving..."
"There is no point expecting people to drink alcohol less, so society just needs to accept any negative consequences it causes" vs. "There is no point expecting people to drive less..."
posted by clawsoon at 1:52 PM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
Examples of "car" substitutions that completely change the average moral judgement:
"If someone leaves their belongings in the street and they get stolen, it's their own fault for leaving them there and the police shouldn't be expected to act" vs. "If someone leaves their car in the street and it gets stolen..."
"Risk is a natural part of working, and anybody working has to accept they could be seriously injured" vs. "Risk is a natural part of driving..."
"There is no point expecting people to drink alcohol less, so society just needs to accept any negative consequences it causes" vs. "There is no point expecting people to drive less..."
posted by clawsoon at 1:52 PM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
I believe many, maybe most people, treat their cars as an extension of their physical selves when they are driving and this explains why they don't behave like pilots of dangerous machinery but instead respond to someone slapping their roof as if they had been punched in the face.
There is no solution to that which doesn't involve serious public education, regulatory change and forbidding some current drivers from ever driving again. Or just banning cars, I'll take that too.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:10 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
There is no solution to that which doesn't involve serious public education, regulatory change and forbidding some current drivers from ever driving again. Or just banning cars, I'll take that too.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:10 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
I've slapped a lot of cars, when their drivers were doing things that put me in danger as a cyclist. The only one that ever tried to run me off the road afterward was a cab driver on Paris.
posted by ropeladder at 2:32 PM on October 21, 2024
posted by ropeladder at 2:32 PM on October 21, 2024
So many of the comments here come clost to something I read meany years back – when we use tools, our proprioception is kind of "extended" to the tool (or like a martial artist is taught that their weapon is an extension of their own body). I think it was in the book, "The Body Has a Mind of Its Own", not 100% sure. For the same reason that it is really rude to touch a person's wheelchair without their permission. What I am trying to say is, the car becomes an extension of the body.
There is also a deeper sense of "ownership". Notice how people take pictures of their cars when they are leaning on the hood or have their hand on the roof?
Make of that what you will. But, in short, PLEASE DO NOT SLAP CARS, for your own sakes. People consider it an assault on themselves and react accordingly. Not just because they are arrogant asses. It is just the way the brain works, proprioception and all.
I also wanted to address the "car" substitutions that completely change the average moral judgement comment above. I think that is completely wrong in purely functional terms: You lock your car on the street and it is not an easy thing to move; you don't need alcohol to get to your job. Blindly substituting car for $thing does not make sense, sorry.
posted by techSupp0rt at 2:35 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
There is also a deeper sense of "ownership". Notice how people take pictures of their cars when they are leaning on the hood or have their hand on the roof?
Make of that what you will. But, in short, PLEASE DO NOT SLAP CARS, for your own sakes. People consider it an assault on themselves and react accordingly. Not just because they are arrogant asses. It is just the way the brain works, proprioception and all.
I also wanted to address the "car" substitutions that completely change the average moral judgement comment above. I think that is completely wrong in purely functional terms: You lock your car on the street and it is not an easy thing to move; you don't need alcohol to get to your job. Blindly substituting car for $thing does not make sense, sorry.
posted by techSupp0rt at 2:35 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Counterargument: Don't bodily endanger cyclists with your car if by any chance you do not wish your car to get slapped. They can't help slapping your car in an emergency, it's just the way the brain works.
posted by Ashenmote at 3:08 PM on October 21, 2024 [9 favorites]
posted by Ashenmote at 3:08 PM on October 21, 2024 [9 favorites]
I can definitely relate to where you’re coming from, as I used to strongly believe in this perspective as well. However, after experiencing daily bicycle and pedestrian commutes in both Los Angeles and Amsterdam, my views have evolved.
In Amsterdam, the entitlement of many bicycle riders rivals what I experienced with car drivers in LA. While the stakes are different—cars being far deadlier than bicycles—the pattern of behavior often feels similar.
I don’t disagree – I actually thought about mentioning that other mobility devices like bikes have the same extension of self behavior (there’s actually a lot of neuroscience research on this) but was trying to avoid derailing the thread further. I think the reason it’s worse for automobiles comes down to the isolation: a person on an e-bike is nowhere near as isolated from a crash or social cues as a driver so even the worst teenagers here are better than the median driver because they’re not surrounded by a protective cage, they’ll see and hear you, and their top speeds are considerably lower for the same reason so they pose much less of a threat.
posted by adamsc at 3:13 PM on October 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
I heard a discussion the other day of a rare female serial killer here in Canada. The expert they were interviewing said that killing of strangers usually happens in domains of entitlement. Women in our society are raised to believe that their domain of entitlement is limited, so they rarely kill strangers.
Drivers - people, when they get into a car - feel entitled to the road. I'm guessing that explains more of what's going on than the idea that the car as an extension of the body.
posted by clawsoon at 3:14 PM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
Drivers - people, when they get into a car - feel entitled to the road. I'm guessing that explains more of what's going on than the idea that the car as an extension of the body.
posted by clawsoon at 3:14 PM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
I may have expressed myself rather poorly – I am in total agreement that people driving cars should not endanger other road users, cyclists or otherwise. The slapping of cars does not bother me in the least. However, the car drivers have a disproportionately violent reaction to the car being slapped even though it was their fault to begin with, and it turns a bad situation worse. When the violent person is sitting in a 2-ton killing machine, car slappers ought to engage in self-preservation is my point...
The citation I wanted to add in the comment above was from a study published in "Current Biology", and reviewed in Medical Express with a BBC News article with quotes from one of the authors.
posted by techSupp0rt at 3:18 PM on October 21, 2024
The citation I wanted to add in the comment above was from a study published in "Current Biology", and reviewed in Medical Express with a BBC News article with quotes from one of the authors.
posted by techSupp0rt at 3:18 PM on October 21, 2024
As I understand it, drunk driving reform shows that jail helps, grumpybear69, if used often enough, and in conjunction with weaker but more frequent penalties, like driving bans. We should've driving bans that last months when drivers cause even minor injuries.
How to make streets safer with just a brick should be inspirational too, like maybe bollard shape could improve complaince, by causing more car body damage, but without being much worse for cyclist how hit the bollard.
I suspect laws against passing cyclists too close maybe too lax in France. Internet thinks "close pass" means only 1m in French law but 1.5m in UK law. At least in the UK, a close pass could supposedly be 3-9 points plust 50-150% of weakly income.
Anne Hidalgo could improve this situation if she could push for stricter close pass laws: You'll make cyclists more visible when drivers know about drivers who lost their license for passing to close.
It's clear CyclingMikey and others improve road safety too, so police should really finance wider efforts, or else maybe people could recieve a reward when film they supply leads to traffic convinction.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:26 PM on October 21, 2024
How to make streets safer with just a brick should be inspirational too, like maybe bollard shape could improve complaince, by causing more car body damage, but without being much worse for cyclist how hit the bollard.
I suspect laws against passing cyclists too close maybe too lax in France. Internet thinks "close pass" means only 1m in French law but 1.5m in UK law. At least in the UK, a close pass could supposedly be 3-9 points plust 50-150% of weakly income.
Anne Hidalgo could improve this situation if she could push for stricter close pass laws: You'll make cyclists more visible when drivers know about drivers who lost their license for passing to close.
It's clear CyclingMikey and others improve road safety too, so police should really finance wider efforts, or else maybe people could recieve a reward when film they supply leads to traffic convinction.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:26 PM on October 21, 2024
My explanations of "car as an extension of the body" are limited to the reaction of the car drivers when the cars are slapped, not to the initial reckless driving. @claswoon: Completely unrelated, I also read that entitlement is the root cause of corruption.
posted by techSupp0rt at 3:29 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by techSupp0rt at 3:29 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
After commenting on this thread I biked to a medical appointment and back. The return trip took place during rush hour (which wasn't my plan; the clinic was way behind schedule). At several points I had to bike in the road, because there wasn't anywhere else to go. I rode in the right (slower) lane. I started counting the number of cars who passed me - not in the left lane, but straddling the left and right, coming within a meter of my handlebars.
After a while I stopped counting.
posted by doctornemo at 4:24 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
After a while I stopped counting.
posted by doctornemo at 4:24 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Slapping a car is really bringing a knife to a gun fight.
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:57 PM on October 21, 2024
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:57 PM on October 21, 2024
"Slapping a car is really bringing a knife to a gun fight."
They just forgot they were in a death fight.
posted by aleph at 5:30 PM on October 21, 2024
They just forgot they were in a death fight.
posted by aleph at 5:30 PM on October 21, 2024
I think we all get the point about "be careful about escalation" but it's the same advice about "don't be aggressive to police if you are a person of color" or "don't have a fight with your abusive husband when they're drunk". We know you're trying to be helpful but in the end you're basically telling a bunch of folks who have less power to not aggravate the dangerous thing with more power, even if we're upset. Which, you know, most of us know already.
posted by bl1nk at 5:44 PM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by bl1nk at 5:44 PM on October 21, 2024 [5 favorites]
Also to the point of how bad behavior is not just a matter of SUV owners -- as with most cities, we've seen an uptick in moped drivers working for various delivery services, and with the pressure to hustle and compete for different jobs, I have seen these folks engage in all kinds of questionable behavior. Going the wrong way down a one way street. Abusive a bike lane even if that isn't meant for mopeds. Blowing through pedestrian only areas.
I think there's a general "I AM IN A HURRY" energy that causes all kinds of folks to believe that their urgency trumps the need to obey rules, so they will exploit whatever affordances their vehicle gives them to exploit that. SUVs get away with it because their size and power allows them to muscle through other vehicles. Mopeds operate in the other end of the spectrum being small enough to slip through traffic jams and powerful enough to bully bicycles in the bike lane. Ped scooters plow through sidewalks without pause. Basically; if you get to be the top of the food chain in any thruway, you have an urgency incentive to be a jerk.
posted by bl1nk at 5:53 PM on October 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
I think there's a general "I AM IN A HURRY" energy that causes all kinds of folks to believe that their urgency trumps the need to obey rules, so they will exploit whatever affordances their vehicle gives them to exploit that. SUVs get away with it because their size and power allows them to muscle through other vehicles. Mopeds operate in the other end of the spectrum being small enough to slip through traffic jams and powerful enough to bully bicycles in the bike lane. Ped scooters plow through sidewalks without pause. Basically; if you get to be the top of the food chain in any thruway, you have an urgency incentive to be a jerk.
posted by bl1nk at 5:53 PM on October 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
However, the car drivers have a disproportionately violent reaction to the car being slapped even though it was their fault to begin with, and it turns a bad situation worse. When the violent person is sitting in a 2-ton killing machine, car slappers ought to engage in self-preservation is my point...
Sure, and if women would just stop dressing like that when they're out...
It's straight up victim blaming. Like the adrenaline reaction to having your car hood slapped is unavoidable and morally neutral, but the cyclist slapping the car to make the driver aware that they nearly just killed them, that's an avoidable choice, and not at all an instinctive adrenaline reaction to nearly being injured or killed.
A driver won't hear the bell on your handlebars. If they're not aware of you and it is a matter of safety or even life and death that they need to know you're there now, you slap the fucking car. It's often all you can do, short of just fold yourself under the wheels with a shrug.
posted by Dysk at 6:58 PM on October 21, 2024 [11 favorites]
Sure, and if women would just stop dressing like that when they're out...
It's straight up victim blaming. Like the adrenaline reaction to having your car hood slapped is unavoidable and morally neutral, but the cyclist slapping the car to make the driver aware that they nearly just killed them, that's an avoidable choice, and not at all an instinctive adrenaline reaction to nearly being injured or killed.
A driver won't hear the bell on your handlebars. If they're not aware of you and it is a matter of safety or even life and death that they need to know you're there now, you slap the fucking car. It's often all you can do, short of just fold yourself under the wheels with a shrug.
posted by Dysk at 6:58 PM on October 21, 2024 [11 favorites]
also, re: the notion of people treating their cars as an extension of themselves -- I own a bike and I own a car (a small SUV even). I've owned the bike for more than twice as long as I've owned the car, and when I am on it, I absolutely think of it as an extension of myself -- moreso because when I am tired, the bike is slow and tired. When I am feeling buzzy and joyful, the bike is effortless.
I have been in one car-on-bike accident with that bike, and I while my own injuries were fortunately minor, I was pretty upset with how the car destroyed a wheel and my bike's front fork. And you can be sure as hell that I went after that driver with my insurance as fiercely as if they had caused me some kind of permanent physical injury. Because that's what they did.
Which is to say, I think it's quite natural for all of us to form attachments to things that are part of our lives, especially vehicles. They are what gets us to a job, or to a friend's house. They help us bring groceries home and are the scenes of conversations, encounters and life.
But also, as always, I encourage people to actually read the linked article before going further on this "if you strike my vehicle, you strike me" derail.
From what I can tell, the incident is not actually about the striking of the SUV but the driver did back off the cyclist's foot after the cyclist slapped their car. The cyclist then got in front of the SUV and blocked its passage so that they can continue to have it out with the driver. And that's when the driver, in their entitled sense of hurry, decided to murder the cyclist. Maybe they thought that they could bluff the cyclist out of their way by playing chicken, and they miscalculated, but even that is a pretty unhinged thing to do.
posted by bl1nk at 7:47 PM on October 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
I have been in one car-on-bike accident with that bike, and I while my own injuries were fortunately minor, I was pretty upset with how the car destroyed a wheel and my bike's front fork. And you can be sure as hell that I went after that driver with my insurance as fiercely as if they had caused me some kind of permanent physical injury. Because that's what they did.
Which is to say, I think it's quite natural for all of us to form attachments to things that are part of our lives, especially vehicles. They are what gets us to a job, or to a friend's house. They help us bring groceries home and are the scenes of conversations, encounters and life.
But also, as always, I encourage people to actually read the linked article before going further on this "if you strike my vehicle, you strike me" derail.
From what I can tell, the incident is not actually about the striking of the SUV but the driver did back off the cyclist's foot after the cyclist slapped their car. The cyclist then got in front of the SUV and blocked its passage so that they can continue to have it out with the driver. And that's when the driver, in their entitled sense of hurry, decided to murder the cyclist. Maybe they thought that they could bluff the cyclist out of their way by playing chicken, and they miscalculated, but even that is a pretty unhinged thing to do.
posted by bl1nk at 7:47 PM on October 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
My home town has a gold standard, fully integrated, comprehensive bicycle/pedestrian path network, completely separated from motor vehicle traffic, sometimes by at least ten metres, and is as safe and pleasant and easy to use as such things could be (for a tropical climate).
There were certain circumstances that made that possible, not very common I grant, but it was done, and properly from the start more than four decades ago. Most amazing part of it? It was done by a conservative government. Back in the days when conservatives still could sometimes do genuinely community minded long-term planning.
Still one of the best features of the place. Everybody loves it.
Was a shock to go from that to riding a bike in inner Sydney when I lived there in my 20s.
posted by Pouteria at 9:54 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
There were certain circumstances that made that possible, not very common I grant, but it was done, and properly from the start more than four decades ago. Most amazing part of it? It was done by a conservative government. Back in the days when conservatives still could sometimes do genuinely community minded long-term planning.
Still one of the best features of the place. Everybody loves it.
Was a shock to go from that to riding a bike in inner Sydney when I lived there in my 20s.
posted by Pouteria at 9:54 PM on October 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
grumpybear69: Slapping a car is really bringing a knife to a gun fight.
One of the bike couriers I used to do dispatch for (hi, Mike!) used his Kryptonite U-lock to break a car's side window when the driver tried to kill him on a downtown street (Congress Street, maybe?). I never doubted his account for a second, because Boston drivers were always trying to run down the couriers back then (mid-90s).
The big courier bag manufacturer at the time, CourierWare, was a few miles away in Cambridge. There was a deep pocket in the middle of their bags where a U-lock fit perfectly...and could be grabbed out with one hand in no time!
posted by wenestvedt at 6:51 AM on October 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
One of the bike couriers I used to do dispatch for (hi, Mike!) used his Kryptonite U-lock to break a car's side window when the driver tried to kill him on a downtown street (Congress Street, maybe?). I never doubted his account for a second, because Boston drivers were always trying to run down the couriers back then (mid-90s).
The big courier bag manufacturer at the time, CourierWare, was a few miles away in Cambridge. There was a deep pocket in the middle of their bags where a U-lock fit perfectly...and could be grabbed out with one hand in no time!
posted by wenestvedt at 6:51 AM on October 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
Over two and a half decades of active urban cycling, during which I did almost all my shopping and obligatory travel by bicycle, and riding my bicycle was a primary recreation and pastime as well, I must have had several dozen antagonistic encounters with drivers.
And in all of those, when I could distinguish gender, and I don’t remember ever being uncertain, the driver was invariably male — not a woman, not even once.
I believe that relegates explanations such as being in a hurry, or seeing one’s car as an extension of self, or simply loving speed, to secondary status.
And that the bedrock cause of bad driver behavior toward cyclists is that the male driver is asserting dominance over the cyclist, whether the cyclist is male or female.
My response in especially bad encounters was pounding my fists on windshields and driver side windows, and then kicking a dent into the door when I could, which happened half a dozen times or so. My primary fear wasn’t of what the driver would do, though one of those drivers did run me over down the road a ways and got deported back to Jamaica, but that I would end up in jail.
posted by jamjam at 11:24 AM on October 22, 2024 [3 favorites]
And in all of those, when I could distinguish gender, and I don’t remember ever being uncertain, the driver was invariably male — not a woman, not even once.
I believe that relegates explanations such as being in a hurry, or seeing one’s car as an extension of self, or simply loving speed, to secondary status.
And that the bedrock cause of bad driver behavior toward cyclists is that the male driver is asserting dominance over the cyclist, whether the cyclist is male or female.
My response in especially bad encounters was pounding my fists on windshields and driver side windows, and then kicking a dent into the door when I could, which happened half a dozen times or so. My primary fear wasn’t of what the driver would do, though one of those drivers did run me over down the road a ways and got deported back to Jamaica, but that I would end up in jail.
posted by jamjam at 11:24 AM on October 22, 2024 [3 favorites]
We cannot ban male drivers per se, but we could impose driver aggression screening of some form, especially because that benfits others drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:58 PM on October 22, 2024
posted by jeffburdges at 12:58 PM on October 22, 2024
doctornemo: I started counting the number of cars who passed me - not in the left lane, but straddling the left and right, coming within a meter of my handlebars.
Within a meter of the handlebars - that's not cool. But if you on your bike are reasonably close to the right edge of the road, and someone passes about 1.5m away from your bars, that would be ok, right? Or do you think that vehicles passing your bike must move completely into the left lane?
Infrastructure is still catching up, so I find that there are many less than ideal situations where bikes & cars are sharing a non-ideal space. Speaking just for myself - if a car is slowly passing me and there's a meter between the passing car and my bars (and no chance of getting doored from a parked car)... I'm usually ok with that. It works the other way too; if a car is stopped but I can get by on the right with half a meter to spare, I'll take it.
Also it's speed-dependent; you expect that the faster the auto traffic, the more buffer there should be between it and bikes. Full bike/car separation is of course the grail.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:04 PM on October 22, 2024
Within a meter of the handlebars - that's not cool. But if you on your bike are reasonably close to the right edge of the road, and someone passes about 1.5m away from your bars, that would be ok, right? Or do you think that vehicles passing your bike must move completely into the left lane?
Infrastructure is still catching up, so I find that there are many less than ideal situations where bikes & cars are sharing a non-ideal space. Speaking just for myself - if a car is slowly passing me and there's a meter between the passing car and my bars (and no chance of getting doored from a parked car)... I'm usually ok with that. It works the other way too; if a car is stopped but I can get by on the right with half a meter to spare, I'll take it.
Also it's speed-dependent; you expect that the faster the auto traffic, the more buffer there should be between it and bikes. Full bike/car separation is of course the grail.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:04 PM on October 22, 2024
And on the issue of slapping or kicking cars?
I've definitely done it and I have zero regrets about it. If I didn't they would have run me off the road right into the curbs or other immobile objects that could have killed me, or they would have run me over, etc.
I can also neither confirm nor deny that I may have busted any windows with a U-lock while riding in certain west coast cities, nor can I confirm or deny that I may have kicked any side mirrors off.
While it is a traumatic and gross analogy, saying "don't slap cars!" is, for me, definitely in the realm of saying "don't fight back if you're being raped or physically attacked" because, god damn it, someone is threatening my life with their stupid car either out of lack of attention, ignorance or active malice.
Whether or not it's because they don't know how to share the road and don't understand that I can take the lane, that I am legally traffic, and that if I'm taking the lane *at all* it's because it's not safe to ride the shoulder due to obstructions like trash and debris, wheel-swallowing grates or simply not enough room to be on the shoulder and having cars passing me.
The fact that the rider in question slapped the car before they were run over on purpose is still murder and absolutely not asking for it.
Granted I have a lot of privilege here with like 30-40+ years of riding experience at this point, much of it in urban high density traffic. I'm not an attractive target for a fist fight because I'm large and chunky. I've never had a driver get out of their car and try to fight me or anything because you'd have to be a total idiot to want to fight the 250+ pound sweaty Wookiee-shaped person on a bike wearing a hard shell helmet and armored or padded gloves.
And, well, I haven't even come close to having to slap or kick a car or even thinking about it in something like 10-15 years because I'm a very defensive rider and I don't trust anything with more than two wheels farther than I can throw it.
Today the few places where I have to take a lane or use "sharrows" roads have 20 MPH speed limits and people are mostly mellow about bikes and low traffic speeds because we just don't have that much traffic, and most of the places I need to go have totally separated bike trails and infrastructure, which is really nice.
For all other cyclists out there, I highly recommend practicing rather extreme and acute defensive riding/driving and just going with the assumption that you're invisible AND every car out there is actively trying to kill you even if it's parked, and never, ever assume that they know or will even follow the rules and laws of traffic.
Yeah, it's stressful to keep that level of awareness all the time but it keeps you out of danger way more than hoping and praying that there are sane, rational and aware drivers behind every wheel.
I see way too many casual or novice riders riding like they're driving a car and assuming that everyone else is going to follow the rules and laws - and in an ideal, rational world this would be real nice - but I find that this is presuming way too much. A lot of normally rational and chill drivers often don't even see you no matter how many lights you have or how much high vis you're wearing.
If you ride defensively enough so you're never in front of a car that you don't know which direction it is heading based on movement and wheel angle, you exit blind spots and religiously avoid being next to passing cars by braking hard and exiting that danger zone, winnow/salmon past stopped cars up to the stop or light with extreme caution, pass parked cars by taking the lane to avoid getting doored, etc - you keep a much larger buffer and more exit opportunities all the time and it always pays off.
Basically never voluntarily ride into any situation where you don't have an exit strategy and at least two exits at any given time and keep that buffer around you, because that defensive space is always going to be your best offense.
posted by loquacious at 1:36 PM on October 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
I've definitely done it and I have zero regrets about it. If I didn't they would have run me off the road right into the curbs or other immobile objects that could have killed me, or they would have run me over, etc.
I can also neither confirm nor deny that I may have busted any windows with a U-lock while riding in certain west coast cities, nor can I confirm or deny that I may have kicked any side mirrors off.
While it is a traumatic and gross analogy, saying "don't slap cars!" is, for me, definitely in the realm of saying "don't fight back if you're being raped or physically attacked" because, god damn it, someone is threatening my life with their stupid car either out of lack of attention, ignorance or active malice.
Whether or not it's because they don't know how to share the road and don't understand that I can take the lane, that I am legally traffic, and that if I'm taking the lane *at all* it's because it's not safe to ride the shoulder due to obstructions like trash and debris, wheel-swallowing grates or simply not enough room to be on the shoulder and having cars passing me.
The fact that the rider in question slapped the car before they were run over on purpose is still murder and absolutely not asking for it.
Granted I have a lot of privilege here with like 30-40+ years of riding experience at this point, much of it in urban high density traffic. I'm not an attractive target for a fist fight because I'm large and chunky. I've never had a driver get out of their car and try to fight me or anything because you'd have to be a total idiot to want to fight the 250+ pound sweaty Wookiee-shaped person on a bike wearing a hard shell helmet and armored or padded gloves.
And, well, I haven't even come close to having to slap or kick a car or even thinking about it in something like 10-15 years because I'm a very defensive rider and I don't trust anything with more than two wheels farther than I can throw it.
Today the few places where I have to take a lane or use "sharrows" roads have 20 MPH speed limits and people are mostly mellow about bikes and low traffic speeds because we just don't have that much traffic, and most of the places I need to go have totally separated bike trails and infrastructure, which is really nice.
For all other cyclists out there, I highly recommend practicing rather extreme and acute defensive riding/driving and just going with the assumption that you're invisible AND every car out there is actively trying to kill you even if it's parked, and never, ever assume that they know or will even follow the rules and laws of traffic.
Yeah, it's stressful to keep that level of awareness all the time but it keeps you out of danger way more than hoping and praying that there are sane, rational and aware drivers behind every wheel.
I see way too many casual or novice riders riding like they're driving a car and assuming that everyone else is going to follow the rules and laws - and in an ideal, rational world this would be real nice - but I find that this is presuming way too much. A lot of normally rational and chill drivers often don't even see you no matter how many lights you have or how much high vis you're wearing.
If you ride defensively enough so you're never in front of a car that you don't know which direction it is heading based on movement and wheel angle, you exit blind spots and religiously avoid being next to passing cars by braking hard and exiting that danger zone, winnow/salmon past stopped cars up to the stop or light with extreme caution, pass parked cars by taking the lane to avoid getting doored, etc - you keep a much larger buffer and more exit opportunities all the time and it always pays off.
Basically never voluntarily ride into any situation where you don't have an exit strategy and at least two exits at any given time and keep that buffer around you, because that defensive space is always going to be your best offense.
posted by loquacious at 1:36 PM on October 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
It appears my comment on car slapping has taken on a life of its own, from being equated to "victim blaming" and "not fighting rapists" among other things. My sincere apologies, for I intended nothing of the sort. I found the study of proprioception and tool use interesting and brought it up in context. Of course, you should slap the car if they are invading your space; or use whatever means to get attention or vent. I'll stop blathering now and making things worse, and respectfully bow out of the conversation.
May your rides be safe and your days pleasant.
posted by techSupp0rt at 2:22 PM on October 22, 2024
May your rides be safe and your days pleasant.
posted by techSupp0rt at 2:22 PM on October 22, 2024
Techsupp0rt - your initial statement in this thread was about chastising cyclists with "PLEASE DO NOT SLAP CARS for your own sakes."
I get that you find this research interesting: but I think it is quite reasonable for people in this thread to equate that to "PLEASE DO NOT DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST DANGEROUS HUMANS EVEN IF THEY ARE THREATENING YOU for your own sakes."
Make of that what you will. Maybe rather than thinking that people are taking you out of context consider the full context of this discussion.
posted by bl1nk at 4:09 PM on October 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
I get that you find this research interesting: but I think it is quite reasonable for people in this thread to equate that to "PLEASE DO NOT DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST DANGEROUS HUMANS EVEN IF THEY ARE THREATENING YOU for your own sakes."
Make of that what you will. Maybe rather than thinking that people are taking you out of context consider the full context of this discussion.
posted by bl1nk at 4:09 PM on October 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
@bl1nk: It was not my intention to chastise, or come across as chastising. I have considered the full context, and see how poorly chosen my words were. For that, I sincerely apologise my fellow mefites. I shall try to do better in the future.
posted by techSupp0rt at 10:31 PM on October 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by techSupp0rt at 10:31 PM on October 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
I think it was the idea itself as much as it was the words used to communicate it.
posted by Dysk at 2:25 AM on October 23, 2024
posted by Dysk at 2:25 AM on October 23, 2024
As much as I dislike drivers, this "victim blaming" thread seems mostly useless. A more useful framing is:
Drivers commit offenses traffic against pedestrians, cyclists, and smaller vehicle because they expect to get away with it.
We reduce this through penalties being more frequently applied, harsher, and well advertised, like how we reduced drunk driving.
Imho, we should've short driving bans for basically all moving violations, certianly any that endanger specific victims, like close passes of cyclists. I'd suggest some simple rule like a 7 day driving ban per point added, but progressive scheme makes sense too. If a close pass under 1.5m also costs drivers 3-9 points, and if the cases get publicity, then drivers will become far more compliant.
Also..
Scotland and Norway have 0.5 % of the world's oil together. Although friendly they're not even EU. All EU nations combined have like 0.1 % of the world's oil, so every drop of oil wassted on some wankpanzer here impacts our overall balance of trade, makes our food more expensive, etc.
We should penalize unecessarily heavy vehicles every chance we get, so like extra points form your vehicle's weight if you're judged at-fault, and lower point threshold for driving heavier vehicles. We should increase fuels taxes and decrease fuel subsidies too, but I think diverse weight penalties send the message more clearly.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:16 AM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]
Drivers commit offenses traffic against pedestrians, cyclists, and smaller vehicle because they expect to get away with it.
We reduce this through penalties being more frequently applied, harsher, and well advertised, like how we reduced drunk driving.
Imho, we should've short driving bans for basically all moving violations, certianly any that endanger specific victims, like close passes of cyclists. I'd suggest some simple rule like a 7 day driving ban per point added, but progressive scheme makes sense too. If a close pass under 1.5m also costs drivers 3-9 points, and if the cases get publicity, then drivers will become far more compliant.
Also..
Scotland and Norway have 0.5 % of the world's oil together. Although friendly they're not even EU. All EU nations combined have like 0.1 % of the world's oil, so every drop of oil wassted on some wankpanzer here impacts our overall balance of trade, makes our food more expensive, etc.
We should penalize unecessarily heavy vehicles every chance we get, so like extra points form your vehicle's weight if you're judged at-fault, and lower point threshold for driving heavier vehicles. We should increase fuels taxes and decrease fuel subsidies too, but I think diverse weight penalties send the message more clearly.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:16 AM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]
« Older "I wonder if the whole thing is AI now. Books... | Bed, Bath, and Beyond investment cult Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
The city felt different with regard to the number of cars that were there compared to the scale of the roads. There was plenty of space for the cars, and less congestion than the last time I visited (1993). We road public transit the entire week (RER, Metro, and bus -- no taxis) except for one day trip in a minivan, and the streets of central Paris felt less crowded than other big cities like Boston or New York.
. 🚲
posted by wenestvedt at 6:42 AM on October 21, 2024 [4 favorites]