The coin
December 2, 2024 4:44 AM Subscribe
President Biden pardons his son Hunter Biden
Posting as relief valve so the miscellaneous link post doesn't become Yet Another US Political Post.
Posting as relief valve so the miscellaneous link post doesn't become Yet Another US Political Post.
Might as well. I don't necessarily love it out of context, but given all the insane pardons to come in about 7 weeks... might as well.
posted by obfuscation at 5:05 AM on December 2, 2024 [28 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 5:05 AM on December 2, 2024 [28 favorites]
I asked myself if I had mixed feelings about this and nope, the rules are changed and Biden should act accordingly.
There’s a Seal Team Six joke here somewhere.
posted by Farce_First at 5:07 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
There’s a Seal Team Six joke here somewhere.
posted by Farce_First at 5:07 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
Lol why fucking not
posted by saturday_morning at 5:10 AM on December 2, 2024 [24 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 5:10 AM on December 2, 2024 [24 favorites]
It's good to be king.
posted by jabah at 5:14 AM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by jabah at 5:14 AM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
I have mixed feelings on this, but any additional sketchy pardons could be used to draw attention from Trump’s ongoing pre-inauguration media circus for the next month, instead of trying to slip them in at the very end of his term.
posted by cardboard at 5:15 AM on December 2, 2024
posted by cardboard at 5:15 AM on December 2, 2024
He'd be an idiot not to, but it does constitute a final admission from the dems that this "rule of law" and "consequences" shit has only ever been for the poors.
posted by jy4m at 5:15 AM on December 2, 2024 [97 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 5:15 AM on December 2, 2024 [97 favorites]
donaldglover-good.gif
The whole thing was just a sham in an attempt to bring down Joe Biden anyway. Remember that in these times, all Republican accusations are actually confessions.
posted by NoMich at 5:16 AM on December 2, 2024 [53 favorites]
The whole thing was just a sham in an attempt to bring down Joe Biden anyway. Remember that in these times, all Republican accusations are actually confessions.
posted by NoMich at 5:16 AM on December 2, 2024 [53 favorites]
Wish he had figured out, "no one is ever going to successfully complete the impeachment process I should just go for it" last year but sure. Good for Hunter I guess. Assuming this doesn't fall 6-3 into a "that's not an official act, a democrat did it" SCOTUS ruling, which would at least be good for continuing to highlight how contradictory and bullshit the legal system has gotten.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:16 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 5:16 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
This means Trump won't have the ability to send an executive order and move Hunter Biden from a minimum security prison over to Florence Supermax.
I don't like this, but given how the Bureau of Prisons is as much a target for removing civil service norms as all the others, I think a lot of small time crooks who would otherwise be targeted by Trump for shows of cruelty should be pardoned too.
posted by ocschwar at 5:17 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
I don't like this, but given how the Bureau of Prisons is as much a target for removing civil service norms as all the others, I think a lot of small time crooks who would otherwise be targeted by Trump for shows of cruelty should be pardoned too.
posted by ocschwar at 5:17 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
A lot of people who voted like this will be going, yup made the right decision there.
posted by Lanark at 5:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 5:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
He'd be an idiot not to, but it does constitute a final admission from the dems that this "rule of law" and "consequences" shit has only ever been for the poors.
Dems aren't the ones who wiped out the rule of law. They're just taking one person out of the line of fire.
posted by ocschwar at 5:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [29 favorites]
Dems aren't the ones who wiped out the rule of law. They're just taking one person out of the line of fire.
posted by ocschwar at 5:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [29 favorites]
The republicans will have a ball with this, but they're having a ball anyway. They were likely to continue making Hunter Biden's life a living hell just out of spite against Joe Biden, and who knows how much worse it would have gotten once Trump and his cronies take office again. It would be nice to see Biden take on a similar "fuck this and fuck you" approach, in his final weeks, to the possibility of issuing executive orders that help Americans who aren't his son, mind you, but somehow I don't think he's any more worried about us than he ever was. Anyway, good for him, I'm glad he did it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:19 AM on December 2, 2024 [15 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:19 AM on December 2, 2024 [15 favorites]
After reading the details of Hunter Biden's crimes, his actions were very immoral. As one small example, he texted a Chinese company threatening that he and Joe Biden would take vengeance unless the Chinese company wired Hunter millions that night. (Newsweek) The company did end up wiring Hunter millions.
The many years of tax evasion were awful as well. These crimes started years before Beau died, and he just used grief as a cover-up excuse.
MeFi is full of people saying "eat the rich" and being angry at "millionaires who don't pay their share of taxes". The selfish behavior displayed by Hunter is not okay even if it is "our" people doing it.
posted by vienna at 5:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [75 favorites]
The many years of tax evasion were awful as well. These crimes started years before Beau died, and he just used grief as a cover-up excuse.
MeFi is full of people saying "eat the rich" and being angry at "millionaires who don't pay their share of taxes". The selfish behavior displayed by Hunter is not okay even if it is "our" people doing it.
posted by vienna at 5:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [75 favorites]
OK, in all of this I’m still missing something. He paid back the taxes already (with money from a benefactor). It seems extremely unlikely he was going to get actual prison time, just probation and maybe a few more fines and some community service or whatever other bullshit white collar criminals get.
So why even bother taking the political hit, which the entire party has to pay for, for the pardon?
Joe Biden just doesn’t give a fuck who gets harmed by his actions does he?
posted by Room 101 at 5:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [19 favorites]
So why even bother taking the political hit, which the entire party has to pay for, for the pardon?
Joe Biden just doesn’t give a fuck who gets harmed by his actions does he?
posted by Room 101 at 5:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [19 favorites]
If you think politics ought to be a team sport where anything 'our' team does is admissible and anything 'their' team does is against the rules, then I guess this is good news? Otherwise it's just sort of sad. All these "Biden has the chance to do the funniest thing ever to uphold democracy" blogs and instead this is what he's using his time and waning energy on.
What a miserable use of a presidency this has been.
posted by mittens at 5:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [77 favorites]
What a miserable use of a presidency this has been.
posted by mittens at 5:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [77 favorites]
FYI Newsweek is a republican shill magazine now; it's Fox News for people who can read. Don't get your news from Newsweek. It's trash.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:22 AM on December 2, 2024 [37 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:22 AM on December 2, 2024 [37 favorites]
If you really want it, it could be a political move: letting Republicans belt out a bunch of quotable lines that can be thrown back at them when Trump is doing the same but worse, while knowing that the Democrats are unlikely to fall into the same trap as they don't have to defer to Biden in the same way.
It probably isn't that, though. It's probably just an old guy at the sad end of his career trying to do something for his family. The President probably shouldn't have the power to issue arbitrary pardons.
posted by aosher at 5:28 AM on December 2, 2024 [7 favorites]
It probably isn't that, though. It's probably just an old guy at the sad end of his career trying to do something for his family. The President probably shouldn't have the power to issue arbitrary pardons.
posted by aosher at 5:28 AM on December 2, 2024 [7 favorites]
Feel free to ignore the Newsweek link and read Hunter's actual texts.
Hunter: "I am sitting here with my father and we would like to understand why the commitment made has not been fulfilled.
"Tell the director that I would like to resolve this now before it gets out of hand. And now means tonight.
"I will make certain that between the man sitting next to me and every person he knows and my ability to forever hold a grudge that you will regret not following my direction. I am sitting here waiting for the call with my father.”
The Chinese company wired Hunter the money. They paid him just under $5M.
Then Hunter evaded taxes on that money.
I think this counts as an instance of millionaires evading taxes on their ill-gotten gains.
posted by vienna at 5:31 AM on December 2, 2024 [36 favorites]
Hunter: "I am sitting here with my father and we would like to understand why the commitment made has not been fulfilled.
"Tell the director that I would like to resolve this now before it gets out of hand. And now means tonight.
"I will make certain that between the man sitting next to me and every person he knows and my ability to forever hold a grudge that you will regret not following my direction. I am sitting here waiting for the call with my father.”
The Chinese company wired Hunter the money. They paid him just under $5M.
Then Hunter evaded taxes on that money.
I think this counts as an instance of millionaires evading taxes on their ill-gotten gains.
posted by vienna at 5:31 AM on December 2, 2024 [36 favorites]
Dems aren't the ones who wiped out the rule of law. They're just taking one person out of the line of fire.
They're the ones who are still sending weapons to Israel in violation of both US and international law. I think that counts as a major contribution to destroying the rule of law.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:32 AM on December 2, 2024 [43 favorites]
They're the ones who are still sending weapons to Israel in violation of both US and international law. I think that counts as a major contribution to destroying the rule of law.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:32 AM on December 2, 2024 [43 favorites]
If you really want it, it could be a political move: letting Republicans belt out a bunch of quotable lines that can be thrown back at them when Trump is doing the same but worse
If this worked on Republicans the Daily Show and Colbert Report would have elected John Kerry.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
If this worked on Republicans the Daily Show and Colbert Report would have elected John Kerry.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
posted by tommasz at 5:38 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 5:38 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Otherwise it's just sort of sad
It's probably just an old guy at the sad end of his career trying to do something for his family
Yeah. Even ignoring everything else, if you give a father the power to pardon his son a lot of fathers are going to do it. I don't like it, but hell, a lot of parents fight more equitable distribution of school resources because they think it will hurt their kids; people cannot be trusted to place justice and equality above their kids and so we shouldn't give them the power to.
But I also wonder how much of this is due to fear, which makes my feelings about it a lot more complicated. Trump and his cronies have been campaigning on vengeance, fully announcing that they're going to use the legal system to persecute their political enemies. And meanwhile Hunter Biden has been a favorite target for their conspiracy and grift machine. Given that context, I think there's a reasonable fear that the "justice" Hunter Biden faced wouldn't be justice at all.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:40 AM on December 2, 2024 [50 favorites]
It's probably just an old guy at the sad end of his career trying to do something for his family
Yeah. Even ignoring everything else, if you give a father the power to pardon his son a lot of fathers are going to do it. I don't like it, but hell, a lot of parents fight more equitable distribution of school resources because they think it will hurt their kids; people cannot be trusted to place justice and equality above their kids and so we shouldn't give them the power to.
But I also wonder how much of this is due to fear, which makes my feelings about it a lot more complicated. Trump and his cronies have been campaigning on vengeance, fully announcing that they're going to use the legal system to persecute their political enemies. And meanwhile Hunter Biden has been a favorite target for their conspiracy and grift machine. Given that context, I think there's a reasonable fear that the "justice" Hunter Biden faced wouldn't be justice at all.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:40 AM on December 2, 2024 [50 favorites]
I think this counts as an instance of millionaires evading taxes on their ill-gotten gains.
Given that we as a people just reelected a rapist who tried to stage a coup when he lost office, I feel like we're really picking and choosing which outrages we're upset about. I don't especially care about this one. Why would anyone pick this one to worry about? What don't they want you to worry about?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:42 AM on December 2, 2024 [43 favorites]
Given that we as a people just reelected a rapist who tried to stage a coup when he lost office, I feel like we're really picking and choosing which outrages we're upset about. I don't especially care about this one. Why would anyone pick this one to worry about? What don't they want you to worry about?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:42 AM on December 2, 2024 [43 favorites]
Given that context, I think there's a reasonable fear that the "justice" Hunter Biden faced wouldn't be justice at all.
Exactly right, and to remove accusations of favoritism or corruption related to Hunter, Joe Biden should blanket pardon all civil servants and every appointee within the DOJ and intelligence agencies. He should put out a press release in parallel explaining his decision and pointing out that there is no credible evidence of actual wrongdoing but that he fears the misuse of executive power to punish political opponents.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 5:45 AM on December 2, 2024 [45 favorites]
Exactly right, and to remove accusations of favoritism or corruption related to Hunter, Joe Biden should blanket pardon all civil servants and every appointee within the DOJ and intelligence agencies. He should put out a press release in parallel explaining his decision and pointing out that there is no credible evidence of actual wrongdoing but that he fears the misuse of executive power to punish political opponents.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 5:45 AM on December 2, 2024 [45 favorites]
I think this counts as an instance of millionaires evading taxes on their ill-gotten gains.
OK. Then why do you suppose, in the six years that literally the entire GOP political apparatus has beenfucking that chicken studiously investigating these alleged crimes, they haven't been able to find a single goddamn thing that can withstand the slightest evidentiary scrutiny? God knows they've tried--we'd be ten years closer to switching entirely to renewables if we could have figured out a way to harness the endless public bloviating about that goddamn laptop.
Hunter is absolutely not the finest young man to ever take the national stage. Probably that's why he's not running for office. But the shitstorm he's been subjected to is completely out of proportion to anything he's alleged to have ever done, and it's painfully obvious to anyone paying the slightest attention that he's just a pawn in the GOP's neverending campaign to destroy our national system of governance. It's not a great look to pardon him, especially when I am 103% sure he never committed any of the so-called crimes he's accused of, but I'd do the same if it were my kid being targeted by a bunch of amoral sociopaths for goddamn YEARS.
n.b.: a handful of uncorroborated texts from a Newsweek hitpiece is not the Ace Attorney coup-de-grace you think it is.
posted by Mayor West at 5:45 AM on December 2, 2024 [61 favorites]
OK. Then why do you suppose, in the six years that literally the entire GOP political apparatus has been
Hunter is absolutely not the finest young man to ever take the national stage. Probably that's why he's not running for office. But the shitstorm he's been subjected to is completely out of proportion to anything he's alleged to have ever done, and it's painfully obvious to anyone paying the slightest attention that he's just a pawn in the GOP's neverending campaign to destroy our national system of governance. It's not a great look to pardon him, especially when I am 103% sure he never committed any of the so-called crimes he's accused of, but I'd do the same if it were my kid being targeted by a bunch of amoral sociopaths for goddamn YEARS.
n.b.: a handful of uncorroborated texts from a Newsweek hitpiece is not the Ace Attorney coup-de-grace you think it is.
posted by Mayor West at 5:45 AM on December 2, 2024 [61 favorites]
Once again proving the adage that, while Republican leaders are always looking to be the party in power, the Democratic leaders are always looking to be the power in the party. Unfortunately it looks like they both got their wish for the next several decades.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:46 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:46 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Good; now commute the sentences of everyone on Federal death row.
posted by TedW at 5:47 AM on December 2, 2024 [46 favorites]
posted by TedW at 5:47 AM on December 2, 2024 [46 favorites]
They're the ones who are still sending weapons to Israel in violation of both US and international law. I think that counts as a major contribution to destroying the rule of law.
Yes yes, absolutely. The Dem's refusal to prioritize exactly the foreign policy decisions you wish them to, makes them morally identical to the other guys. Both sides are exactly the same. All opinions are equally valid. All statements are equally true. The universe is not right and wrong. We float in undifferentiated aether; "matter" and "energy" are fictions foisted upon you by scientists and the government.
posted by Mayor West at 5:48 AM on December 2, 2024 [31 favorites]
Yes yes, absolutely. The Dem's refusal to prioritize exactly the foreign policy decisions you wish them to, makes them morally identical to the other guys. Both sides are exactly the same. All opinions are equally valid. All statements are equally true. The universe is not right and wrong. We float in undifferentiated aether; "matter" and "energy" are fictions foisted upon you by scientists and the government.
posted by Mayor West at 5:48 AM on December 2, 2024 [31 favorites]
I realize there's no way to prove this until later, but I just don't see that Hunter Biden would matter at all in a few months, other than a fading Republican talking point. Trump's admin isn't going to put him in jail, because he's rich and one of the club. Did people not notice that for all the Lock Her Up chants, Hilary didn't actually wind up behind bars? The 'vengeance' will be at a lower level. Celebrities and the wealthy will be fine. We'll see Hunter partying with the Trump brothers over NYE.
posted by mittens at 5:49 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:49 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
The Dem's refusal to prioritize exactly the foreign policy decisions you wish them to, makes them morally identical to the other guys.
Given the particular foreign policy decision...yeah?
posted by mittens at 5:50 AM on December 2, 2024 [24 favorites]
Given the particular foreign policy decision...yeah?
posted by mittens at 5:50 AM on December 2, 2024 [24 favorites]
For me it's the gun charges. We have laws preventing some people from buying guns. He shouldn't have had a gun but he lied and bought a gun. I'm curious to see what Hunter's next act is. Maybe Dancing with the Stars!
This is why I wanted a president with no messy adult children to distract them. Can't always get what you want, though. Every president I voted for has disappointed me in the end, this one's no different.
posted by kimberussell at 5:51 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
This is why I wanted a president with no messy adult children to distract them. Can't always get what you want, though. Every president I voted for has disappointed me in the end, this one's no different.
posted by kimberussell at 5:51 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
Actually it makes the Dems worse, because they will promise not to do it, lie to you when they do, attack you when you criticize them for both the lying and the genocide, and if the last couple years are any indication, they will enthusiastically work towards "bipartisan" fascist nonsense that is making it insanely easy for the Republicans to send you to prison for it.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:52 AM on December 2, 2024 [30 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:52 AM on December 2, 2024 [30 favorites]
I should look it up regarding this question it may be addressed in the verbiage above and below this query
A presidential pardon does not exonerate one from all past sentences nor does it exonerate one from future litigation or does it and to what degree?
Hopefully at some time I can fill in the blanks/details regarding the scope of a presidential pardon
posted by robbyrobs at 5:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
A presidential pardon does not exonerate one from all past sentences nor does it exonerate one from future litigation or does it and to what degree?
Hopefully at some time I can fill in the blanks/details regarding the scope of a presidential pardon
posted by robbyrobs at 5:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
I understand why he did it. I might have done the same in his position. He still shouldn't have done it.
It's pretty far down the list of things in political news to get upset about, but that says more about how bad things have gotten than about how venal this act is.
posted by biogeo at 5:54 AM on December 2, 2024 [24 favorites]
It's pretty far down the list of things in political news to get upset about, but that says more about how bad things have gotten than about how venal this act is.
posted by biogeo at 5:54 AM on December 2, 2024 [24 favorites]
to republicans: mote beam eye etc
posted by lalochezia at 5:54 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 5:54 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Yes yes, absolutely. The Dem's refusal to prioritize exactly the foreign policy decisions you wish them to, makes them morally identical to the other guys. Both sides are exactly the same. All opinions are equally valid. All statements are equally true. The universe is not right and wrong. We float in undifferentiated aether; "matter" and "energy" are fictions foisted upon you by scientists and the government.
Never again should mean never again for anyone.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 6:00 AM on December 2, 2024 [23 favorites]
Never again should mean never again for anyone.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 6:00 AM on December 2, 2024 [23 favorites]
This is blatant naked corruption. That it is understandable doesn't mitigate that.
posted by Mitheral at 6:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [30 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 6:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [30 favorites]
Sigh. I am crestfallen that so many people are happy about this. It is not good to use executive power to pardon one's own family, regardless of the circumstances.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 6:06 AM on December 2, 2024 [31 favorites]
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 6:06 AM on December 2, 2024 [31 favorites]
NYT Pitchbot: President Biden is chickenshit for not locking up everyone involved with or who'd benefit from Project 2025.
posted by k3ninho at 6:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by k3ninho at 6:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
My feeling here is that nothing matters, so why not?
No one would give Biden any credit for not pardoning Hunter, and the Trump administration would get to use him as a political football whenever they need to distract from someone worse. It's not as if there's any Republican politician who would say "well, I was going to do this reprehensible thing, but Biden was a moral guy who chose not to pardon his own son, so I guess I won't do the reprehensible thing."
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [37 favorites]
No one would give Biden any credit for not pardoning Hunter, and the Trump administration would get to use him as a political football whenever they need to distract from someone worse. It's not as if there's any Republican politician who would say "well, I was going to do this reprehensible thing, but Biden was a moral guy who chose not to pardon his own son, so I guess I won't do the reprehensible thing."
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [37 favorites]
True as far as it goes, but it doesn't paint Biden in a good light that this is apparently the one thing he wants to buck the norms for. Not exactly a big, legacy-defining (positive) swing.
posted by sagc at 6:22 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:22 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Did people not notice that for all the Lock Her Up chants, Hilary didn't actually wind up behind bars?
Hilary Clinton was never charged with anything, let alone convicted. Hunter Biden's sentencing hearings were scheduled for later this month.
We'll see Hunter partying with the Trump brothers over NYE.
Both-sides-do-it-ist slashfic holds little interest, I'm afraid.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:26 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Hilary Clinton was never charged with anything, let alone convicted. Hunter Biden's sentencing hearings were scheduled for later this month.
We'll see Hunter partying with the Trump brothers over NYE.
Both-sides-do-it-ist slashfic holds little interest, I'm afraid.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:26 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
I mean, the only people it serves is the Biden family. It fucks over everyone else, including his own political party, for absolutely no good reason, while leaving hundreds of thousands of more deserving people to the whims of the Trump administration.
What's worse is that I imagine this is neither the last nor the worst of the indignities the Democrats will help usher in before Jan 20, and that's even taking into account writing the bipartisan bill that essentially destroys progressive non-profits for the foreseeable future.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:29 AM on December 2, 2024 [27 favorites]
What's worse is that I imagine this is neither the last nor the worst of the indignities the Democrats will help usher in before Jan 20, and that's even taking into account writing the bipartisan bill that essentially destroys progressive non-profits for the foreseeable future.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:29 AM on December 2, 2024 [27 favorites]
Biden's legacy is that he's the chucklefuck who got pushed out of the presidency in favor of a nothingburger candidate who faceplanted anyway. He has no legacy. American politics wiped its butt with him. He just doesn't want it to also wipe its butt with his son, whose greatest sin was the accident of birth.
The idea that republicans are outraged that the white son of a millionaire would escape justice due to his social status is the most ridiculous load of horseshit I have ever heard in my entire life. I thank you for the deep guffaw this elicited. I needed it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:31 AM on December 2, 2024 [23 favorites]
The idea that republicans are outraged that the white son of a millionaire would escape justice due to his social status is the most ridiculous load of horseshit I have ever heard in my entire life. I thank you for the deep guffaw this elicited. I needed it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:31 AM on December 2, 2024 [23 favorites]
"For me it's the gun charges. We have laws preventing some people from buying guns. He shouldn't have had a gun but he lied and bought a gun. I'm curious to see what Hunter's next act is. Maybe Dancing with the Stars!"
Yeah, I get it, but it's clearly targeted. You can see that it's not normal to go at someone (rich especially) like this-- even if it's technically correct. If you got a gun in any of the states where weed is legal, it's still federally illegal-- so every one who checked that same box on the form should also get federally charged-- right?
Didn't the gun store owners screw up too? I remember reading an article.. here-- from emptywheel that they doctored the forms (filled in missing data) and were even asked to only send a copy of the form in (so it was black and white and would hide the multiple pen colors) and perhaps, perhaps those doctoring's happened only because they were given immunity by the prosecutors.
So both lied on the same form, but the gun store gets to stay in business, and Hunter Biden faces prison for owning a gun for 11 days over five years ago. Screw 'em both-- but all things being equal, I'd rather the immunity have been given to Hunter to use the form to shut the store down (they gave him a gun without having sufficient ID), then it being used the other way around.
posted by Static Vagabond at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I get it, but it's clearly targeted. You can see that it's not normal to go at someone (rich especially) like this-- even if it's technically correct. If you got a gun in any of the states where weed is legal, it's still federally illegal-- so every one who checked that same box on the form should also get federally charged-- right?
Didn't the gun store owners screw up too? I remember reading an article.. here-- from emptywheel that they doctored the forms (filled in missing data) and were even asked to only send a copy of the form in (so it was black and white and would hide the multiple pen colors) and perhaps, perhaps those doctoring's happened only because they were given immunity by the prosecutors.
So both lied on the same form, but the gun store gets to stay in business, and Hunter Biden faces prison for owning a gun for 11 days over five years ago. Screw 'em both-- but all things being equal, I'd rather the immunity have been given to Hunter to use the form to shut the store down (they gave him a gun without having sufficient ID), then it being used the other way around.
posted by Static Vagabond at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
I would do the same thing. I think every parent would, faced with the prospects of their kid going to jail. Especially given the loss that Biden has suffered in his personal life. Its one person so I don't really care that much, but Hunter did the crimes but since his dad is president he won't be doing the time.
What's more concerning for me, is that there are a bunch of liberals who just do not have principles. They support this because its their team doing it. It pisses off the 'orange cheeto' so of course its a good thing. Just a horrible type of politics. IOKIYAD.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
What's more concerning for me, is that there are a bunch of liberals who just do not have principles. They support this because its their team doing it. It pisses off the 'orange cheeto' so of course its a good thing. Just a horrible type of politics. IOKIYAD.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
pathetic
posted by joeyh at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by joeyh at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
If you got a gun in any of the states where weed is legal, it's still federally illegal-- so every one who checked that same box on the form should also get federally charged-- right?
Is massive tax evasion a minor crime in your book?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:34 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Is massive tax evasion a minor crime in your book?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:34 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Has Leonard Peltier been pardoned yet?
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:37 AM on December 2, 2024 [38 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:37 AM on December 2, 2024 [38 favorites]
Huh? I didn't say anything about tax evasion.
posted by Static Vagabond at 6:44 AM on December 2, 2024
posted by Static Vagabond at 6:44 AM on December 2, 2024
Whether the incumbent is Democrat or Republican, this presidential pardon thing seems as crazy to this outsider as the electoral college system and the apparently legal gerrymandering that happens when districts are redrawn. Hardly inspiring in a country that's apparently the world's greatest democracy.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 6:44 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 6:44 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
First:
1. I don't think Presidents should be able to pardon family members, or at least if they feel that there is a case for a pardon, it should require some kind of secondary vetting.
2. Presidential pardons of high-profile people are often pretty sketchy, this is not unique to Trump or Biden.
3. The Democrats trade on being better than the Republicans. If that were my routine and I wanted to pardon my child, I personally would at least pardon, eg, the aging and ill Leonard Peltier and federal death row cases when I was after all in the very last weeks of my presidency - what are they going to do, primary you?
4. This is just one more sign of the absolute hollowing out of the Democrats in the last forty years. Now there's nothing left but a crumbling mask over a complete void of principles or even ideology.
posted by Frowner at 6:44 AM on December 2, 2024 [39 favorites]
1. I don't think Presidents should be able to pardon family members, or at least if they feel that there is a case for a pardon, it should require some kind of secondary vetting.
2. Presidential pardons of high-profile people are often pretty sketchy, this is not unique to Trump or Biden.
3. The Democrats trade on being better than the Republicans. If that were my routine and I wanted to pardon my child, I personally would at least pardon, eg, the aging and ill Leonard Peltier and federal death row cases when I was after all in the very last weeks of my presidency - what are they going to do, primary you?
4. This is just one more sign of the absolute hollowing out of the Democrats in the last forty years. Now there's nothing left but a crumbling mask over a complete void of principles or even ideology.
posted by Frowner at 6:44 AM on December 2, 2024 [39 favorites]
When they go low, we go high oh, fuck it, they did it first.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:47 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:47 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Republicans will defy norms for any reason, or even just for the sake of doing so. Democrats uphold norms, even if it means millions of people won't have healthcare or whatever, because these are the principles they have been elected to uphold, and democracy depends not just upon the letter of the law, but also the integrity of those who have been elected to represent the people. (But also, for friends and family, norms shmorms.)
posted by snofoam at 6:49 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 6:49 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
They were right about the Marxism!
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx.
posted by lalochezia at 6:52 AM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx.
posted by lalochezia at 6:52 AM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
He'd be an idiot not to, but it does constitute a final admission from the dems that this "rule of law" and "consequences" shit has only ever been for the poors.
After campaigning on the wave of BLM protests and then spending 4 years deep-throating cop boots and giving them enough funding to give 100,000 more republicans with anger issues and power fantasies guns and fancy cars and a shiny badge, it's a very nice little endcap on the whole message.
How Kamala the cop got even as many votes as she did after all this is beyond me
posted by wafehling at 7:04 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
I looked at the thread on r/conservativism last night, and they were mostly OK with this. They fell into a couple of overlapping groups.
1) I'd pardon my own kid, so I understand why he'd do this.
2) The charges were trumped up. He'd already repaid the taxes, and the gun charges are almost never used.
3) Best to get him out of the line of fire once Trump gets into power, with the things Trump's saying.
So, it makes sense that the people here would hate this.
posted by Spike Glee at 7:06 AM on December 2, 2024 [19 favorites]
1) I'd pardon my own kid, so I understand why he'd do this.
2) The charges were trumped up. He'd already repaid the taxes, and the gun charges are almost never used.
3) Best to get him out of the line of fire once Trump gets into power, with the things Trump's saying.
So, it makes sense that the people here would hate this.
posted by Spike Glee at 7:06 AM on December 2, 2024 [19 favorites]
Hilary Clinton was never charged with anything, let alone convicted.
Neither was Nixon.
1. I don't think Presidents should be able to pardon family members, or at least if they feel that there is a case for a pardon, it should require some kind of secondary vetting.
The art of the deal would have been, Biden pardons Trump and Trump pardons Biden.
posted by BWA at 7:09 AM on December 2, 2024
Neither was Nixon.
1. I don't think Presidents should be able to pardon family members, or at least if they feel that there is a case for a pardon, it should require some kind of secondary vetting.
The art of the deal would have been, Biden pardons Trump and Trump pardons Biden.
posted by BWA at 7:09 AM on December 2, 2024
Can’t Trump just find something else Hunter did and arrest him for that? Honestly I would not be surprised at all if Trump goes after Joe himself.
posted by eirias at 7:14 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by eirias at 7:14 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
3) Best to get him out of the line of fire once Trump gets into power, with the things Trump's saying.
If I were an r/conservative and my takeaway was "clearly the president I have elected is going to take personal vengeance on Biden by attacking his family, so it's wise of Biden to act now", that might cause me to have a little think about my conservatism. But I suppose "hurrah for the gangster state, as long as they're my gangsters" is where we're at now.
I connect all this to far right masculinity discourse - naturally, you protect your family, but no need to do anything to prevent the decline of society into mere warlordism, after all that gives you lots of opportunities to be even manlier.
posted by Frowner at 7:15 AM on December 2, 2024 [20 favorites]
If I were an r/conservative and my takeaway was "clearly the president I have elected is going to take personal vengeance on Biden by attacking his family, so it's wise of Biden to act now", that might cause me to have a little think about my conservatism. But I suppose "hurrah for the gangster state, as long as they're my gangsters" is where we're at now.
I connect all this to far right masculinity discourse - naturally, you protect your family, but no need to do anything to prevent the decline of society into mere warlordism, after all that gives you lots of opportunities to be even manlier.
posted by Frowner at 7:15 AM on December 2, 2024 [20 favorites]
It's a nothingburger. Presidents usually pardon rich people who have given them lots of money on the way out the door, so doing it for a family member is only a slight change. It's still using the Presidential pardon for selfish means, but it's still the same as before. This isn't a new precedent and it's not going to change anything about what Trump will or will not due. It will give Fox News another talking point when working to justify whatever fuckery he does, but that's all.
I was going to argue that the pardon that broke the system was Ford's of Nixon, but honestly, I bet if you go farther back you can find other equally crappy pardons. (I imagine this is what Trump is aiming for Vance to do for him after he leaves office.) Hell, Carter posthumously pardoned arch-traitor Jefferson Davis.
posted by Hactar at 7:29 AM on December 2, 2024 [7 favorites]
I was going to argue that the pardon that broke the system was Ford's of Nixon, but honestly, I bet if you go farther back you can find other equally crappy pardons. (I imagine this is what Trump is aiming for Vance to do for him after he leaves office.) Hell, Carter posthumously pardoned arch-traitor Jefferson Davis.
posted by Hactar at 7:29 AM on December 2, 2024 [7 favorites]
Joe's a doddering fool who won't be able to protect his kid from his own stupidity for much longer. This is about the last thing Joe can do before he dies to keep his dumb fucking son out of trouble. Hunter will probably fuck up yet again, because he's a piece of shit, but whatever. Everything's fucked anyway. Do we get a news cycle about old man Biden doing one last hail Mary for his garbage son, instead of more doom about how fucked everything will be on January 7th? Ok.
Look, ice cream is up to $8 a two-litre tub, this doesn't even twitch my rage needle.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:31 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Look, ice cream is up to $8 a two-litre tub, this doesn't even twitch my rage needle.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:31 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Came here to see if the leftiest of the left would be angry, was not disappointed.
I'm glad he did this. Hunter Biden has faced years of harassment simply because of who his father is. If you hate this, well, I'm gonna just come out and say that maybe you need to have your empathy checked, because it might very well be broken.
As always, a certain percentage of very loud people on the left - Dems, Progressives, Leftists, whatever you want to call yourselves - enjoy hating on people who are at least somewhat on their side more than they want to criticize the people doing (or preparing to do) actual harm to this country.
Pro tip for building coalitions: screaming at people and telling them how much they suck isn't really a great strategy for making people want to agree with you on ... well, on anything.
"Don't let the best be the enemy of the good" is something a lot of you need to take to heart.
The most surprising thing to me, honestly, is that he did it as a stand alone action, and not as one of a bundle of end-of-term pardons. I'm betting he's heard something, or fears something, that made him change his mind and do it now, and in this public way. Joe Biden loves his family, more than just about anything else. So he, like millions of other families right now, made it a priority to make sure his kid was as protected as he could be.
Anyway, if you're mad about this, I'd encourage you to take the time to refocus your ire on something that really matters, something you can change. Because being mad about this is just a waste of your energy and is doing what the MAGA majority wants you to do -- hate your own allies and fight them, instead of fighting the actual threat.
posted by anastasiav at 7:38 AM on December 2, 2024 [50 favorites]
I'm glad he did this. Hunter Biden has faced years of harassment simply because of who his father is. If you hate this, well, I'm gonna just come out and say that maybe you need to have your empathy checked, because it might very well be broken.
As always, a certain percentage of very loud people on the left - Dems, Progressives, Leftists, whatever you want to call yourselves - enjoy hating on people who are at least somewhat on their side more than they want to criticize the people doing (or preparing to do) actual harm to this country.
Pro tip for building coalitions: screaming at people and telling them how much they suck isn't really a great strategy for making people want to agree with you on ... well, on anything.
"Don't let the best be the enemy of the good" is something a lot of you need to take to heart.
The most surprising thing to me, honestly, is that he did it as a stand alone action, and not as one of a bundle of end-of-term pardons. I'm betting he's heard something, or fears something, that made him change his mind and do it now, and in this public way. Joe Biden loves his family, more than just about anything else. So he, like millions of other families right now, made it a priority to make sure his kid was as protected as he could be.
Anyway, if you're mad about this, I'd encourage you to take the time to refocus your ire on something that really matters, something you can change. Because being mad about this is just a waste of your energy and is doing what the MAGA majority wants you to do -- hate your own allies and fight them, instead of fighting the actual threat.
posted by anastasiav at 7:38 AM on December 2, 2024 [50 favorites]
screaming at people and telling them how much they suck
Nobody's screaming at anyone.
posted by mittens at 7:42 AM on December 2, 2024 [27 favorites]
Nobody's screaming at anyone.
posted by mittens at 7:42 AM on December 2, 2024 [27 favorites]
Ok, now erase student loan debt
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:44 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:44 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
Because being mad about this is just a waste of your energy and is doing what the MAGA majority wants you to do -- hate your own allies and fight them, instead of fighting the actual threat.
Well, sure glad no one here spent several paragraphs being mad and hating on their own allies while writing something like this.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:46 AM on December 2, 2024 [23 favorites]
Well, sure glad no one here spent several paragraphs being mad and hating on their own allies while writing something like this.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:46 AM on December 2, 2024 [23 favorites]
I don't like that this is the world we're living in right now, nor that this is the country that voted (or had too much moral purity to soil their hands to prevent) a man who attempted a coup back into office. The left (and by which I mean anyone left of the GOP) had better start playing hardball before the republic is looted for scrap.
Obama played the decorum and institutionalism game and got outplayed like a chump by the likes of McConnell. Biden didn't play the hand quite so hard but he was still playing the old game and let Manchin and Sinema derail his work.
Maybe this is a sign that he realizes the game needs to be played differently now. Maybe Biden should use that magical sweeping executive immunity because you damn well know Donald will.
posted by tclark at 7:46 AM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
Obama played the decorum and institutionalism game and got outplayed like a chump by the likes of McConnell. Biden didn't play the hand quite so hard but he was still playing the old game and let Manchin and Sinema derail his work.
Maybe this is a sign that he realizes the game needs to be played differently now. Maybe Biden should use that magical sweeping executive immunity because you damn well know Donald will.
posted by tclark at 7:46 AM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
As always, a certain percentage of very loud people on the left - Dems, Progressives, Leftists, whatever you want to call yourselves - enjoy hating on people who are at least somewhat on their side more than they want to criticize the people doing (or preparing to do) actual harm to this country.
Do you honestly think this is helping?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:49 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
Do you honestly think this is helping?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:49 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
The most surprising thing to me, honestly, is that he did it as a stand alone action, and not as one of a bundle of end-of-term pardons. I'm betting he's heard something, or fears something, that made him change his mind and do it now, and in this public way. Joe Biden loves his family, more than just about anything else. So he, like millions of other families right now, made it a priority to make sure his kid was as protected as he could be.
I can not take any idea seriously that posits that Hunter Biden of all people is so critical to the future of democracy and/or humanity that pardoning him and only him is some kind of genius masterstroke and not Biden slamming his dick in the car door. Does anyone here actually believe he's heard or fears something so wild that he chose to loudly proclaim this pardon and no others?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:50 AM on December 2, 2024 [14 favorites]
I can not take any idea seriously that posits that Hunter Biden of all people is so critical to the future of democracy and/or humanity that pardoning him and only him is some kind of genius masterstroke and not Biden slamming his dick in the car door. Does anyone here actually believe he's heard or fears something so wild that he chose to loudly proclaim this pardon and no others?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:50 AM on December 2, 2024 [14 favorites]
++1 sad nothingburger.
In a year it will seem quaint to have noticed or debated at all.
posted by Dashy at 7:52 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
In a year it will seem quaint to have noticed or debated at all.
posted by Dashy at 7:52 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Text of pardon is here:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/12/01/statement-from-president-joe-biden-11/
Note that includes "offenses against the United States which he has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 1, 2014 through December 1, 2024"
2014. Interesting year.
posted by BWA at 7:56 AM on December 2, 2024 [6 favorites]
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/12/01/statement-from-president-joe-biden-11/
Note that includes "offenses against the United States which he has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 1, 2014 through December 1, 2024"
2014. Interesting year.
posted by BWA at 7:56 AM on December 2, 2024 [6 favorites]
Nobody's screaming at anyone.
Please join me out in the wild worlds of social media. There are quite a few people I used to respect actively on the "Fuck Joe Biden" train about this.
Does anyone here actually believe he's heard or fears something so wild that he chose to loudly proclaim this pardon and no others?
I am 100% certain there are other pardons coming. There always are. Its an end of term thing that happens. Which is why I pointed out that I'm surprised that he did this single one as a stand alone action and not as a bundle of others.
posted by anastasiav at 7:56 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Please join me out in the wild worlds of social media. There are quite a few people I used to respect actively on the "Fuck Joe Biden" train about this.
Does anyone here actually believe he's heard or fears something so wild that he chose to loudly proclaim this pardon and no others?
I am 100% certain there are other pardons coming. There always are. Its an end of term thing that happens. Which is why I pointed out that I'm surprised that he did this single one as a stand alone action and not as a bundle of others.
posted by anastasiav at 7:56 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
sure glad no one here spent several paragraphs being mad and hating on their own allies while writing something like this.
In what way are you an ally when you and yours helped swing the undecideds towards Trump, or away from voting in general?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
In what way are you an ally when you and yours helped swing the undecideds towards Trump, or away from voting in general?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
It's fun how the center refuses to reevaluate their failure and chooses to blame the left for their abject failures, as always.
No it's not. Do some more introspection please.
posted by constraint at 8:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
No it's not. Do some more introspection please.
posted by constraint at 8:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
> In what way are you an ally when you and yours helped swing the undecideds towards Trump, or away from voting in general?
Absolutely not what happened.
posted by constraint at 8:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
Absolutely not what happened.
posted by constraint at 8:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
I don't see any point in leaving his son tied to a post on principle, when the country is gearing up to abandon all principles forever.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:04 AM on December 2, 2024 [33 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:04 AM on December 2, 2024 [33 favorites]
Keep telling yourself that until you believe it. Sure as heck won't convince anyone else.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:05 AM on December 2, 2024
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:05 AM on December 2, 2024
Please join me out in the wild worlds of social media.
If I may get a bit meta here, conversations on controversial topics here really don't work well when people get angry in a thread based on text they've consumed elsewhere on the web. And no, I have no interest in joining anyone into the wilds of social media algorithms that are designed to show you content that will enrage you. That's a distorted image of reality. So is this:
Hunter Biden has faced years of harassment simply because of who his father is.
As other users have already pointed out above, Hunter did some genuinely corrupt and gross acts that are very deserving of punishment. Yes, this acts would have gone unpunished if he wasn't his father's son - but he also wouldn't have been able to do them if he was just some schmuck like the rest of us, far from any political power. At a human level, I understand why a father would do everything in his power to protect his son, but that doesn't mean this isn't also an example of rich and powerful people getting off the hook for their misdeeds because they're rich and powerful.
posted by coffeecat at 8:05 AM on December 2, 2024 [44 favorites]
If I may get a bit meta here, conversations on controversial topics here really don't work well when people get angry in a thread based on text they've consumed elsewhere on the web. And no, I have no interest in joining anyone into the wilds of social media algorithms that are designed to show you content that will enrage you. That's a distorted image of reality. So is this:
Hunter Biden has faced years of harassment simply because of who his father is.
As other users have already pointed out above, Hunter did some genuinely corrupt and gross acts that are very deserving of punishment. Yes, this acts would have gone unpunished if he wasn't his father's son - but he also wouldn't have been able to do them if he was just some schmuck like the rest of us, far from any political power. At a human level, I understand why a father would do everything in his power to protect his son, but that doesn't mean this isn't also an example of rich and powerful people getting off the hook for their misdeeds because they're rich and powerful.
posted by coffeecat at 8:05 AM on December 2, 2024 [44 favorites]
There's going to be some overlap between the people who will have a field day with this news and the people who think Trump should pardon Meal Team 6. That's the thing about pardons, though. Didn't do anything wrong? No reason to seek a pardon. Seeking a pardon = Everyone who says I'm guilty is correct. Granting a pardon = I agree with you.
posted by emelenjr at 8:05 AM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by emelenjr at 8:05 AM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
Love to see Biden going out there and taking risks, would simply adore it if he started doing it on behalf of people who are not immediate family members
posted by theodolite at 8:08 AM on December 2, 2024 [32 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 8:08 AM on December 2, 2024 [32 favorites]
I can't be arsed to care about Hunter Biden, but at this point (a) the Democrats have basically lost for eternity so I don't know why the hell this would make it any worse, (b) Joe's so lame duck he might as well do what he wants, (c) Hunter going into jail as Trump is in power will be Very Bad for him. Like "dude, you better flee the country this month" level of bad.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:09 AM on December 2, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:09 AM on December 2, 2024 [6 favorites]
As always, a certain percentage of very loud people on the left - Dems, Progressives, Leftists, whatever you want to call yourselves - enjoy hating on people who are at least somewhat on their side more than they want to criticize the people doing (or preparing to do) actual harm to this country.
It's the Punch Who You Can Reach thread!
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:14 AM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
It's the Punch Who You Can Reach thread!
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:14 AM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
My personal belief is that this happened after he pardoned that turkey last week and was like, wait, shit
posted by theodolite at 8:15 AM on December 2, 2024 [30 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 8:15 AM on December 2, 2024 [30 favorites]
In what way are you an ally when you and yours helped swing the undecideds towards Trump, or away from voting in general?
Have you ever considered that people may have voted for Trump or stayed home because of the rank hypocrisy of Democrats?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:16 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Have you ever considered that people may have voted for Trump or stayed home because of the rank hypocrisy of Democrats?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:16 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Absolutely not what happened.
But the consultant class that totally didn't get us into this mess in the first place insists that it's the migrants, Palestinians, and trans people that are to blame!
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:17 AM on December 2, 2024 [15 favorites]
But the consultant class that totally didn't get us into this mess in the first place insists that it's the migrants, Palestinians, and trans people that are to blame!
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:17 AM on December 2, 2024 [15 favorites]
Mod note: Hi folks, just a nudge to take it easy on the back-and-forth between a few users, especially if you've commented several times already in the thread already. Let's try and be mindful of how and what we are commenting (personal attacks, getting fighty).
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:17 AM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:17 AM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
Even in Orban's Hungary (!) there were consequences for such a corrupt pardon: Katalin Novák presidential pardon scandal.
posted by kmt at 8:19 AM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by kmt at 8:19 AM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
Have you ever considered that people may have voted for Trump or stayed home because of the rank hypocrisy of Democrats?
Have you considered that the progressive causes may never, ever again have a victory on a Federal level until the far left learns to coalition with the center left?
Have you looked at the numbers and realized that if that had happened this year, we'd be celebrating a Harris win?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:24 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
Have you considered that the progressive causes may never, ever again have a victory on a Federal level until the far left learns to coalition with the center left?
Have you looked at the numbers and realized that if that had happened this year, we'd be celebrating a Harris win?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:24 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
Dems aren't the ones who wiped out the rule of law. They're just taking one person out of the line of fire
But they could have taken hundreds or thousands of people out of the line of fire. Cool, you want to pardon your son? Now pardon everyone convicted of gun charges for owning a gun on a nonviolent felony. A lot of those people need a pardon far more than Hunter Biden.
Also pardoning for uncharged crimes? I’m in transit, so I can’t look up if that has been done before - does anyone know?
posted by corb at 8:26 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
But they could have taken hundreds or thousands of people out of the line of fire. Cool, you want to pardon your son? Now pardon everyone convicted of gun charges for owning a gun on a nonviolent felony. A lot of those people need a pardon far more than Hunter Biden.
Also pardoning for uncharged crimes? I’m in transit, so I can’t look up if that has been done before - does anyone know?
posted by corb at 8:26 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Uh, this is a thread about Biden' pardoning his son Hunter. What coalition are you talking about. Is there a split over the principle that pardoning your family members is bad or is there a split over whether pardoning your family members is bad but its ok because its our team.
Have you looked at the numbers and realized that if that had happened this year, we'd be celebrating a Harris win?
Nearly every county saw R gains over D, man online leftists are powerful.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:27 AM on December 2, 2024 [15 favorites]
Have you looked at the numbers and realized that if that had happened this year, we'd be celebrating a Harris win?
Nearly every county saw R gains over D, man online leftists are powerful.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:27 AM on December 2, 2024 [15 favorites]
Have you considered that the progressive causes may never, ever again have a victory on a Federal level until the far left learns to coalition with the center left?
You'll forgive me for saying so, but I believe the responsibility and indeed the power to create a coalition is held exclusively by the faction that actually runs your party, which, in case you are not clear on this, is not the far left.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [27 favorites]
You'll forgive me for saying so, but I believe the responsibility and indeed the power to create a coalition is held exclusively by the faction that actually runs your party, which, in case you are not clear on this, is not the far left.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [27 favorites]
After swearing up and down that he would not pardon his son...
it evokes the fatality of the moment: with Trump in the wings, and all the riff-raff and ideological chaos and misery that he brings with him, Biden pardoning his son is small beer at best. (c.f. Ivanka and Jared. Especially Jared (who was also pardoned provisionally)). No, none of this impresses or surprises me: America has been caught with its trousers around its ankles. Laws should have been passed (more laws) measures should have been taken, for the love of christ, the President-elect literally tried a coup last time around. *throws up hands*
Which puts me in the camp that thinks he should do some truly wild, necessary shit. Which is desperation, like thinking you'll bet it all on the ponies to pay off the loan-sharks 'cause you got a sure thing lined up a tip from the guy at the car-wash.
It's fucking sad.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:39 AM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
it evokes the fatality of the moment: with Trump in the wings, and all the riff-raff and ideological chaos and misery that he brings with him, Biden pardoning his son is small beer at best. (c.f. Ivanka and Jared. Especially Jared (who was also pardoned provisionally)). No, none of this impresses or surprises me: America has been caught with its trousers around its ankles. Laws should have been passed (more laws) measures should have been taken, for the love of christ, the President-elect literally tried a coup last time around. *throws up hands*
Which puts me in the camp that thinks he should do some truly wild, necessary shit. Which is desperation, like thinking you'll bet it all on the ponies to pay off the loan-sharks 'cause you got a sure thing lined up a tip from the guy at the car-wash.
It's fucking sad.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:39 AM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
Hunter is far from off the hook. The pardon means he no longer has any Fifth Amendment rights not to testify. They will hit him with subpoenas in February, and he will be indicted for contempt if he doesn't testify or perjury if he testifies (in the DOJ's view) falsely.
posted by MattD at 8:40 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by MattD at 8:40 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
The pardon means he no longer has any Fifth Amendment rights not to testify.
Is this due to something specific in this case/pardon or is this applicable to pardons in general?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:41 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Is this due to something specific in this case/pardon or is this applicable to pardons in general?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:41 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
When you get an unconditional pardon for anything that you might have done between 2014 and 2024, you cannot incriminate yourself by testifying about anything. Those kind of unconditional blanket pardons are very rare, but the consequences of them are not controversial.
posted by MattD at 8:45 AM on December 2, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by MattD at 8:45 AM on December 2, 2024 [7 favorites]
Lots of supposed allies divided here. Misinformation/disinformation/propaganda is a powerful tool, when the goal is to divide people. As usual, the allies of the Democratic Party (and not-Democrats who land on the left of the imaginary center line) are especially nasty about it. Makes me want to watch Life of Brian again.
posted by Chuffy at 8:46 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 8:46 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Mod note: None deleted but just a reminder to please keep comments focused on the topic of Hunter Biden's pardon and refrain from derailing any further.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:47 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:47 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments derailing thread and making personal attacks deleted.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Good, because the other side was prepared to crucify him to draw attention away from The President Being A Rapist. Biden would have been bearing the weight of every crime they could hang on him, justified or no, while the Rapist-In-Chief gets away with more Raping and whatever else near-total immunity lets him get away with.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
A good friend and I had a conversation about this today. We broke it down in terms of the three fundamental frameworks of moral philosophy, which I think was an illuminating way to view this.
Deontology: There's no explicit rule about NOT pardoning him. Add to that the SCOTUS decision that basically allows anything a sitting POTUS does to be considered legal. [Outcome: Pardoning Hunter Biden is OK]
Values/Virtue ethics: Trickier since we don't really know Biden's true value system. But from what he has said previously, the pardon wouldn't be a virtuous choice. In conflict with that is his value system as a protective father, which I'm guessing led him to believe this was acceptable. [Outcome: No good solution]
Consequentialism: Pardoning Hunter Biden will have little consequence to anyone apart from the Bidens themselves. Considering Hunter Biden's very public exploits and shame in the past, it is hard to imagine he'll have enough power or social capital to do anything that has any bearing on the country or the world. Also, the writing is on the wall that 45/47 plans vengeance, and you'd be silly not to think Hunter Biden wouldn't have been in the crosshairs. [Outcome: Pardoning Hunter Biden is OK]
posted by yellowcandy at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Deontology: There's no explicit rule about NOT pardoning him. Add to that the SCOTUS decision that basically allows anything a sitting POTUS does to be considered legal. [Outcome: Pardoning Hunter Biden is OK]
Values/Virtue ethics: Trickier since we don't really know Biden's true value system. But from what he has said previously, the pardon wouldn't be a virtuous choice. In conflict with that is his value system as a protective father, which I'm guessing led him to believe this was acceptable. [Outcome: No good solution]
Consequentialism: Pardoning Hunter Biden will have little consequence to anyone apart from the Bidens themselves. Considering Hunter Biden's very public exploits and shame in the past, it is hard to imagine he'll have enough power or social capital to do anything that has any bearing on the country or the world. Also, the writing is on the wall that 45/47 plans vengeance, and you'd be silly not to think Hunter Biden wouldn't have been in the crosshairs. [Outcome: Pardoning Hunter Biden is OK]
posted by yellowcandy at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
I'll try to step back after this, but I'm not seeing the huge outrage from the left on this some are describing, at least not here in this thread. And I don't know that the people here who are unhappy about it are necessarily leftists. I'm not sure if everyone remembers, it has been a long year, but many of Biden's most passionate critics, and certainly those who pressured him to leave the race for president, are centrists.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
"Its political".
Yes, yes it was as like when George Soros 'invested' in a George W. Bush business and later stated 'He is the son of the Vice President' who was giving Hunter money because of his demonstrated technical skills?
Hunter's situation arose out of the political position of family. So yes, it was political.
As a reminder from the past:
"Written laws are like spiders' webs; they will catch, it is true, the weak and poor, but would be torn in pieces by the rich and powerful." - Anacharsis Scythian prince of the 6th century bc
The pardon shows what parents will do for their kids but doesn't support the idea of equality under the law.
posted by rough ashlar at 9:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
Yes, yes it was as like when George Soros 'invested' in a George W. Bush business and later stated 'He is the son of the Vice President' who was giving Hunter money because of his demonstrated technical skills?
Hunter's situation arose out of the political position of family. So yes, it was political.
As a reminder from the past:
"Written laws are like spiders' webs; they will catch, it is true, the weak and poor, but would be torn in pieces by the rich and powerful." - Anacharsis Scythian prince of the 6th century bc
The pardon shows what parents will do for their kids but doesn't support the idea of equality under the law.
posted by rough ashlar at 9:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
JFC. can this not degrade into Palestine & The Election AGAIN. There is a topic to this thread. Set up another on that if you want to have it.
posted by lalochezia at 9:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [14 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 9:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [14 favorites]
The house is scheduled to be demolished on January 21st and some of y'all are wringing your hands on whether Joe was a poor tenant for not patching holes where he hung pictures.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:05 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:05 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Sorry, this is not the thread for I/P discussion. Please drop the derail.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:06 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:06 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Two deleted, poster's request.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:13 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:13 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
I think it would be interesting to see what the limits of president Hindenberg's executive actions and pardoning power are. The SCROTUS will play calvin ball of course, but why not. The marriage is over anyway, time to hock the silver. The republic ended in 2016 even if they kept the SPQR on all the sewer grates afterwards. Blanket pardon all the about-to-be-Schedule-F-ed over govt workers. Pardon the folks getting 20years for protesting fossil fuel infrastructure. Pardon the black panthers etc. Pardon everyone who provided and provide healthcare to women. Pardon the librarians for hosting books. Pardon the schools for teaching the imperfections of our founding god-kings. Pardon the people who ruthlessly hurt statues or knelt at sports-ball games.
Live a little Brandon, before they arrest you, have some fun.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 9:19 AM on December 2, 2024 [25 favorites]
Live a little Brandon, before they arrest you, have some fun.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 9:19 AM on December 2, 2024 [25 favorites]
I'm fine with this. Politicians pardoning their relatives is not a sign of a stable, healthy country, but nothing Biden does now is going to bring stability. Maybe there's still some value to avoiding the appearance of corruption? Or would that be just a vain attempt to pretend things are normal and stable until mid-January?
I do hope Biden clears death row while he's on the topic.
posted by mersen at 9:21 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
I do hope Biden clears death row while he's on the topic.
posted by mersen at 9:21 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
This is one of those inflection points where I honestly cannot imagine what the people getting worked up about it are thinking. Like, what planet are you on?
posted by rhymedirective at 9:24 AM on December 2, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 9:24 AM on December 2, 2024 [6 favorites]
But this opens the door for TFG to pardon someone like Joe Arpaio or Dinesh D'Souza or Conrad Black or Mike Flynn or George Papadopoulos or Charles Kushner or Roger Stone or Paul Manafort or Stephen Bannon or…
Wait a minute.
posted by mazola at 9:26 AM on December 2, 2024 [23 favorites]
Wait a minute.
posted by mazola at 9:26 AM on December 2, 2024 [23 favorites]
Not for nothing, but as a father I have absolutely no problem with Joe's choice. Hunter did some bad things but he certainly doesn't deserve to be hung out to dry while feckless sadists move into positions of power. I would never let my child be left vulnerable to these ghouls if I can help it, decorum be damned.
posted by hairless ape at 9:37 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by hairless ape at 9:37 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
Is this due to something specific in this case/pardon or is this applicable to pardons in general?
Your right not to testify is due to the right not to self-incriminate, as we live in a land with a variety of laws you could be violating at any moment through something you thought was innocuous. However, when they pardon you for all crimes you have ever committed, spoken or unspoken, that doesn't really apply. You have no right not to incriminate others - that's why so many leftists get sentenced for refusing to speak to grand juries after they are immunized.
posted by corb at 9:44 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Your right not to testify is due to the right not to self-incriminate, as we live in a land with a variety of laws you could be violating at any moment through something you thought was innocuous. However, when they pardon you for all crimes you have ever committed, spoken or unspoken, that doesn't really apply. You have no right not to incriminate others - that's why so many leftists get sentenced for refusing to speak to grand juries after they are immunized.
posted by corb at 9:44 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure if I was clear enough; I'm not mad about Biden's decision at all. Why should I be? "Dog Pees On Tree, Nation Shocked"? I support any decision the administration makes that helps people break their emotional attachment to the party. Some people here of a certain generation and class aren't ready to figure it out yet, but the time will come when the "coalition" is entirely people whose only political desire is to discipline and punish the left.
posted by jy4m at 9:49 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 9:49 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
American voters just proved en mass that they don't care at all about integrity so why let your son suffer for it's sake.
posted by being_quiet at 10:07 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
posted by being_quiet at 10:07 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
FYI Newsweek is a republican shill magazine now; it's Fox News for people who can read. Don't get your news from Newsweek. It's trash.
Just as a correction to this, Newsweek is non-partisan engagement-bait political trash news, and they produce just as much rage-bait for left audiences as right ones (eg). I'm not saying it isn't trash, though.
Personally I find Hunter Biden thing deeply upsetting, though I'm not inclined to go scream at anyone about it on social media. It sets a bad precedent for Trump's inevitable pardon of his own associates and family members down the line, and while you could argue that Trump will do what he wants anyways, political pressure was able to stop him from performing at least some of the pardons being floated at the end of his last term. The Democrats don't really gain anything from ceding the moral high ground here.
posted by whir at 10:15 AM on December 2, 2024
Just as a correction to this, Newsweek is non-partisan engagement-bait political trash news, and they produce just as much rage-bait for left audiences as right ones (eg). I'm not saying it isn't trash, though.
Personally I find Hunter Biden thing deeply upsetting, though I'm not inclined to go scream at anyone about it on social media. It sets a bad precedent for Trump's inevitable pardon of his own associates and family members down the line, and while you could argue that Trump will do what he wants anyways, political pressure was able to stop him from performing at least some of the pardons being floated at the end of his last term. The Democrats don't really gain anything from ceding the moral high ground here.
posted by whir at 10:15 AM on December 2, 2024
Maybe there's still time for Joe to nominate Hunter to be US ambassador to France.
posted by mazola at 10:16 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by mazola at 10:16 AM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Let's try to stay on topic and avoid derailing this thread with comments centering the conversation around the past Harris/Trump electoral run, or the Palestinian genocide. While all of these are important issues, this is not the thread for them.
posted by loup (staff) at 10:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 10:18 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
The Democrats should have known that you simply can't win on "vote for us while we do things you hate because the other guy is a monster" forever, no matter how much of a monster the other guy is.i want to emphasize this. it especially doesn't help that once the republicans are elected, the democrats suddenly start talking about bipartisanship and looking forward to working with them--if optics are everything, saying that someone is a extinction-level event for american democracy in summer and then being all friendly in winter tells people who aren't paying attention you're just saying shit.
First, the more you use that line, the more used to it people get - it's mobilizing for a while and for some people, but at least a sizeable minority tune it out.
and it tells people who are paying attention that you might not believe the shit you're saying.
also:
Second, you're relying on voters in an extremely low-information society to think, "I hate the situation under Biden, but I have researched the matter and feel that things will definitely be worse under Trump, so I'm going to vote for Biden". Most people are not interested in or not capable of thinking at that level - this is a nation where most people don't understand how tariffs work, most people don't understand how vaccines are developed, most people don't understand that basic medical care for broke people now costs less than emergency medical care later, etc.while i detest the atlantic, something germane to this:
Once voters had reached that conclusion, many of them simply did not want to hear negative information about Trump that would cause cognitive dissonance about their choice. As Jackie Payne, the founder and executive director of Galvanize Action, which studies the political attitudes of moderate white women, told me shortly before the election, many female voters who believed that Trump would improve their economic situation simply dismissed any rhetoric and proposals from him that they might find troubling. “They were choosing to believe a vision of him that was aligned with what they wanted to get out of him—a strong economy—and they were absolutely discounting anything that felt extreme as disinformation or hyperbole, even if he said he would do it,” she said.posted by i used to be someone else at 10:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
It's amazing to see who and what they can go out on a limb for and who or what they just simply can't - "our hands are tied, there's just no way..." Where there's a will there's a way and the Democrats simply have no will.
posted by flamk at 10:21 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
posted by flamk at 10:21 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
I think Joe Biden is a disgusting person and I'm sure I wouldn't love to meet Hunter out in the world, but the narrow question of the pardon itself is not something I feel all that concerned with. If I had a son in Hunter's situation, I would do it, right or wrong. Hunter Biden seems to have committed actual crimes and the type of crimes that aren't worth anyone's sympathies. Still, while there is an idea that a pardon is "earned," it's also true that one of the great things any of us can do in life is extend mercy to someone whether they have earned it or not.
The politics of the pardon I also don't much care about at this point.
The thing I find shocking is that Joe Biden has only pardoned about 25 people, and this is his first since the election. To me, this is unconscionable. I think the pardon is the only aspect of the office I would personally carry out with uncomplicated joy. There is no better thing than to get someone out of prison.
It's true that the worst of our incarceration addiction is in the state prisons outside of Biden's pardon power. But I think there are about 200,000 people in Federal prison and many of them are there for drug offenses, non-violent offenses, and literal parole violations. There are pregnant women in Federal prison and some of them are actually innocent, or have done things far less bad than some of us out here free in the world. There are plenty of places to start with pardoning people in the dozens or the hundreds or the thousands, which is would be the best use of the remaining days of his presidency. I'm sad that the disgusting old man doesn't see it the way I see, as with so many things.
posted by kensington314 at 10:22 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
The politics of the pardon I also don't much care about at this point.
The thing I find shocking is that Joe Biden has only pardoned about 25 people, and this is his first since the election. To me, this is unconscionable. I think the pardon is the only aspect of the office I would personally carry out with uncomplicated joy. There is no better thing than to get someone out of prison.
It's true that the worst of our incarceration addiction is in the state prisons outside of Biden's pardon power. But I think there are about 200,000 people in Federal prison and many of them are there for drug offenses, non-violent offenses, and literal parole violations. There are pregnant women in Federal prison and some of them are actually innocent, or have done things far less bad than some of us out here free in the world. There are plenty of places to start with pardoning people in the dozens or the hundreds or the thousands, which is would be the best use of the remaining days of his presidency. I'm sad that the disgusting old man doesn't see it the way I see, as with so many things.
posted by kensington314 at 10:22 AM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
as far as biden's pardon of biden
i think my give a shit is broken. do i think it's unseemly? sure. do i think it's understandable? sure. do i care either way? no. i have other fish to fry, like ensuring i have a stockpile of medication for when the republicans repeal the aca and figuring out which states i can safely travel to for work/pleasure and hope that doesn't have career impacts
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:29 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
i think my give a shit is broken. do i think it's unseemly? sure. do i think it's understandable? sure. do i care either way? no. i have other fish to fry, like ensuring i have a stockpile of medication for when the republicans repeal the aca and figuring out which states i can safely travel to for work/pleasure and hope that doesn't have career impacts
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:29 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
oh no / anyway
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:32 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:32 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Not going to be manipulated into feeling outrage over this, for reasons already mentioned. There will be real, actual atrocities coming, and I feel like I need to save my energy for those. Best of luck to all.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:45 AM on December 2, 2024 [21 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:45 AM on December 2, 2024 [21 favorites]
There will be real, actual atrocities coming
plus ça change
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:54 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
plus ça change
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:54 AM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
They were likely to continue making Hunter Biden's life
Now that he is pardoned he is subpoenable. About basically his entire life.
posted by ocschwar at 10:57 AM on December 2, 2024
Now that he is pardoned he is subpoenable. About basically his entire life.
posted by ocschwar at 10:57 AM on December 2, 2024
"Hunter Biden received a "full and unconditional pardon" for any possible crime he committed, retroactive to seven years before Joe Biden even took office. He didn't merely commute the sentences of the crimes he was convicted of; Joe gave him a blanket pardon for any and all crimes he may have committed for nearly eleven years."
It is one thing to pardon your son for crimes he was convictied of and crimes he pled guilty to, but to give him a blanket pardon for any crime over an 11 year period he MAY have committed? That is a bridge too far for me.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:58 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
It is one thing to pardon your son for crimes he was convictied of and crimes he pled guilty to, but to give him a blanket pardon for any crime over an 11 year period he MAY have committed? That is a bridge too far for me.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:58 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
3. I would at least pardon, eg, the aging and ill Leonard Peltier and federal death row cases when I was after all in the very last weeks of my presidency - what are they going to do, primary you?
posted by Frowner at 6:44 on December 2
Free Leonard Peltier
posted by otherchaz at 10:59 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:44 on December 2
Free Leonard Peltier
posted by otherchaz at 10:59 AM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
...Joe Biden should blanket pardon all civil servants and every appointee within the DOJ and intelligence agencies.
Thanks for this suggestion, Inspector.Gadget. I sent a comment to Biden through whitehouse.gov asking him to do this, and additionally to blanket pardon (of any crimes related to immigration) all DACA recipients and Dreamers.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:10 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Thanks for this suggestion, Inspector.Gadget. I sent a comment to Biden through whitehouse.gov asking him to do this, and additionally to blanket pardon (of any crimes related to immigration) all DACA recipients and Dreamers.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:10 AM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
I will not be surprised when Trump pardons every J6er and other MAGA personality who has any influence whatsoever, not because Biden pardoned his son, but because Trump was always going to. This just affords him the ability to yell "Foul" louder and, yes, it kind of looks like that, even though it doesn't really matter.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:11 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:11 AM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
I have mixed feelings about the Hunter pardon. On the one hand, it's another example of a rich and powerful person (or someone connected to a rich and powerful person) getting a hand-out that isn't available to 99% of people and continuing on through their merry and charmed life. Also grinding my gears is a mental image that juxtaposes the phrases "Hunter Biden" and "all things Palestine" and pulls from that some kind of vague reason for irritation.
On the other hand, Biden sucked in so many other and much worse ways (e.g. Palestine) that I find it difficult to devote much headspace to this kind of thing. After eating so much of this shit sandwich, it's not like I expected the last few bites to magically become scrumptious. And to be real, I would probably pardon my fuck-up kid if they found themselves in similar straits.
So my tentative verdict is: I'll see if Biden pardons anyone else (if he only pardons Hunter this will be WAY more vexing to me; if he commutes the sentences a bunch of death-row prisoners, I will not be nearly as bothered).
posted by miltthetank at 11:15 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, Biden sucked in so many other and much worse ways (e.g. Palestine) that I find it difficult to devote much headspace to this kind of thing. After eating so much of this shit sandwich, it's not like I expected the last few bites to magically become scrumptious. And to be real, I would probably pardon my fuck-up kid if they found themselves in similar straits.
So my tentative verdict is: I'll see if Biden pardons anyone else (if he only pardons Hunter this will be WAY more vexing to me; if he commutes the sentences a bunch of death-row prisoners, I will not be nearly as bothered).
posted by miltthetank at 11:15 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Now that he is pardoned he is subpoenable. About basically his entire life.
Well, 11 years of it, anyway.
posted by corb at 11:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
Well, 11 years of it, anyway.
posted by corb at 11:20 AM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
Have you ever considered that people may have voted for Trump or stayed home because of the rank hypocrisy of Democrats?
Yes, and I can tolerate it because I didn’t stand blindly by while you helped elect a racist rapist to be POTUS while basically being immune to prosecution for any reason. I didn’t stand by while a parade of clown-shoes billionaires stuffs their noses up his backside and gets laws canceled and rights destroyed because they inconveniently interrupt profit-taking.
If you voted for Trump or, at a minimum, didn’t vote against him, you shouldn’t be allowed to complain about anything he does for the next four years (if we’re lucky, it will be only four years). Even if he is unable to serve, the person standing by to replace him is just as evil, and arguably, sane, so he won’t have the cognitive issues.
By comparison, pardoning Hunter means nothing. Congress is going to pillory him, anyway.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:23 AM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
Yes, and I can tolerate it because I didn’t stand blindly by while you helped elect a racist rapist to be POTUS while basically being immune to prosecution for any reason. I didn’t stand by while a parade of clown-shoes billionaires stuffs their noses up his backside and gets laws canceled and rights destroyed because they inconveniently interrupt profit-taking.
If you voted for Trump or, at a minimum, didn’t vote against him, you shouldn’t be allowed to complain about anything he does for the next four years (if we’re lucky, it will be only four years). Even if he is unable to serve, the person standing by to replace him is just as evil, and arguably, sane, so he won’t have the cognitive issues.
By comparison, pardoning Hunter means nothing. Congress is going to pillory him, anyway.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:23 AM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
I understand the feelings floated by many of you that Joe Biden as a father decided to do what he could to protect his son. If it was my son, I would stop at nothing to protect him.
But if Joe Biden actually cared about his son, his corrupt, drug-addicted, influence-peddling, deadbeat-dad, philandering, out-of-control son, then Joe Biden shouldn't have run for president in 2020. What could possibly be worse for the stability, sobriety, and mental health of your son than placing him back in the white-hot spotlight of national attention? Was Joe Biden so essential to the future of America that it justified the sacrifice of his son? (spoiler alert: no.)
posted by fuzzy.little.sock at 11:29 AM on December 2, 2024 [17 favorites]
But if Joe Biden actually cared about his son, his corrupt, drug-addicted, influence-peddling, deadbeat-dad, philandering, out-of-control son, then Joe Biden shouldn't have run for president in 2020. What could possibly be worse for the stability, sobriety, and mental health of your son than placing him back in the white-hot spotlight of national attention? Was Joe Biden so essential to the future of America that it justified the sacrifice of his son? (spoiler alert: no.)
posted by fuzzy.little.sock at 11:29 AM on December 2, 2024 [17 favorites]
That's what voting's really about, right? Getting people who are a little too critical of power to shut their whiny mouths. Boy do I love this democracy we've got, I'd do just about anything to protect it.
posted by jy4m at 11:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 11:33 AM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
Yes, and I can tolerate it because I didn’t stand blindly by while you helped elect a racist rapist to be POTUS while basically being immune to prosecution for any reason.
The sum total of my political activities consisted of posting on this website about Palestine, donating to pro-Palestine causes, writing my representatives to stop sending arms to Israel, putting a Harris Walz sign in my front yard, donating to Harris, publishing a few pieces of political scholarship that only nerds read, and voting for Harris despite me being in a solidly blue state. Which one of these helped elect Trump?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:34 AM on December 2, 2024 [17 favorites]
The sum total of my political activities consisted of posting on this website about Palestine, donating to pro-Palestine causes, writing my representatives to stop sending arms to Israel, putting a Harris Walz sign in my front yard, donating to Harris, publishing a few pieces of political scholarship that only nerds read, and voting for Harris despite me being in a solidly blue state. Which one of these helped elect Trump?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:34 AM on December 2, 2024 [17 favorites]
Was Joe Biden so essential to the future of America that it justified the sacrifice of his son?
I would actually have to say yes; Biden was a shitty president but he took Trump out of power, and there's no way to know how many lives that saved, or at least made less miserable, if only for four years. I am comfortable saying that my personal happiness is more important than that of Hunter Biden, who seems like a spoiled little turd and chronic fuck up. I think your personal happiness is more important, too.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:42 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
I would actually have to say yes; Biden was a shitty president but he took Trump out of power, and there's no way to know how many lives that saved, or at least made less miserable, if only for four years. I am comfortable saying that my personal happiness is more important than that of Hunter Biden, who seems like a spoiled little turd and chronic fuck up. I think your personal happiness is more important, too.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:42 AM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
After sleeping on the news I think I'm most bothered by the situation that got us here: either Biden lets the Rs (continue to) break the norm of "don't try to put your political opponents in jail" or Biden breaks the norm of "don't pardon your family members". Given that shitty choice, I don't blame him for his decision. It's not my biggest beef about his choices as president by any means.
That said, I'm all for him pardoning a shitload of other people and not just his son. If the pardon dam has broken, let's pardon all the people who are unjustly in federal jail and commute all federal death sentences and generally go hog wild on being kind to people who aren't your son, Joe. Rs are shitty to everybody, so extend that grace beyond your own.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:57 AM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
That said, I'm all for him pardoning a shitload of other people and not just his son. If the pardon dam has broken, let's pardon all the people who are unjustly in federal jail and commute all federal death sentences and generally go hog wild on being kind to people who aren't your son, Joe. Rs are shitty to everybody, so extend that grace beyond your own.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:57 AM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
This will make it so much easier to sell the general public on the Big Lie and justify mass arrests and executions.
Four years from now, the idea that the Democrats stole an election from poor kind Donald will be historical fact, backed up by an at that point entirely Republican owned mediascape.
posted by CynicalKnight at 11:57 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Four years from now, the idea that the Democrats stole an election from poor kind Donald will be historical fact, backed up by an at that point entirely Republican owned mediascape.
posted by CynicalKnight at 11:57 AM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
It seems to me both that Biden made the correct call, and that elected democrats should criticize him for it.
posted by kickingtheground at 12:04 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 12:04 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
This will make it so much easier to sell the general public on the Big Lie and justify mass arrests and executions.
They already bought it. This is going to make absolutely no meaningful difference in what the next administration is going to do. The only difference is what shade of fig leaf they'll have in their talking points.
It also won't make any difference what America thinks of it, either. We know what America thinks of it. They're OK with it.
posted by tclark at 12:05 PM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
They already bought it. This is going to make absolutely no meaningful difference in what the next administration is going to do. The only difference is what shade of fig leaf they'll have in their talking points.
It also won't make any difference what America thinks of it, either. We know what America thinks of it. They're OK with it.
posted by tclark at 12:05 PM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
This will make it so much easier to sell the general public on the Big Lie and justify mass arrests and executions.
People are so entrenched in their own bubbles at this point that I don't see how this will move the needle.
posted by joannemerriam at 12:07 PM on December 2, 2024
People are so entrenched in their own bubbles at this point that I don't see how this will move the needle.
posted by joannemerriam at 12:07 PM on December 2, 2024
Who are you supposed to be worried about here, if you are Joe Biden? The American people? The democratic party? Both groups spent half a year telling him to go fuck himself. He's probably going to steal all the pens out of the supply cabinet, too.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
They should stop naming names and issue presidential pardons to "The Carrier of this Document" instead. Not only is it more discreet, it can also set up some great plot twists for later.
posted by Ashenmote at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
posted by Ashenmote at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
I'm thinking of writing my (Republican) congresspeople to demand legislation clarifying whether Presidents can pardon their family members, themselves, or individuals who have bribed that President. The legislation should state explicitly whether such corruption is impeachable.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 12:13 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 12:13 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
He has until January 20th to pardon his brother, James Biden and himself.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:28 PM on December 2, 2024
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:28 PM on December 2, 2024
Well, I'm with anastasiav and Jasmine Crockett on this one -- the latter of whom was quite succinct:
Well I won't pretend to speak for the entire caucus but I will say ‘Way to go, Joe.'posted by y2karl at 12:38 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Let me be first to congratulate the president.
For anyone who wants to clutch their pearls because he was going to pardon his son, I would say take a look in the mirror because we also know that when it comes to this cabinet, this cabinet has more people accused of sexual assault than any incoming cabinet, probably ever than in the history of America.
I simply can’t agree with that take. “It’s totally cool to issue a corrupt pardon to family members for abusing their proximity to power because the other guy has sex offenders and nazis in the cabinet” is a completely irresponsible stance.
If this were Biden stretching or even breaking the law in order to help the less fortunate, the working class, or to right a historic wrong, then sure, I’d be happy to subscribe to the opinion that “gloves off” is the way to go.
But that’s not the equation here. Hunter Biden isn’t some poor, downtrodden, persecuted class of people. He’s the fucking sitting President’s failson who did Real-Ass crimes and barely got a slap on the wrist for them.
I’m fine with an opinion of “whatever, it doesn’t matter,” because in the grand scheme, I agree this doesn’t have some kind of enormous impact. But I absolutely HATE it when people try to act like this isn’t another display of corruption and is somehow either balancing out the nazis or (worse?) that Hunter is some kind of good guy.
posted by Room 101 at 1:06 PM on December 2, 2024 [35 favorites]
If this were Biden stretching or even breaking the law in order to help the less fortunate, the working class, or to right a historic wrong, then sure, I’d be happy to subscribe to the opinion that “gloves off” is the way to go.
But that’s not the equation here. Hunter Biden isn’t some poor, downtrodden, persecuted class of people. He’s the fucking sitting President’s failson who did Real-Ass crimes and barely got a slap on the wrist for them.
I’m fine with an opinion of “whatever, it doesn’t matter,” because in the grand scheme, I agree this doesn’t have some kind of enormous impact. But I absolutely HATE it when people try to act like this isn’t another display of corruption and is somehow either balancing out the nazis or (worse?) that Hunter is some kind of good guy.
posted by Room 101 at 1:06 PM on December 2, 2024 [35 favorites]
The best thing you can say about it is the appearance of partisan hypocrisy hardly matters - it’s not as if the Right would have given anybody any credit over Biden making a show of principle here.
But don’t try to tell me it’s a good thing. Come on.
posted by atoxyl at 1:34 PM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
But don’t try to tell me it’s a good thing. Come on.
posted by atoxyl at 1:34 PM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
If seeing Trump ritually destroy an essentially harmless person purely out of spite while the Dems do jackshit about it for the sake of "decorum"/"integrity" is your kink, don't you worry, the next four years are gonna be sexy as hell for you.
American democracy as we know it is ending, folks. We aren't gonna high road/pink hat/#resist our way out of this shit this time.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:57 PM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
American democracy as we know it is ending, folks. We aren't gonna high road/pink hat/#resist our way out of this shit this time.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:57 PM on December 2, 2024 [18 favorites]
I'm thinking of writing my (Republican) congresspeople to demand legislation clarifying whether Presidents can pardon their family members, themselves, or individuals who have bribed that President.
they would have to pass a constitutional amendment to change that
posted by pyramid termite at 2:19 PM on December 2, 2024
they would have to pass a constitutional amendment to change that
posted by pyramid termite at 2:19 PM on December 2, 2024
Harmless? Wasn’t Hunter doing crack and buying a gun?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:34 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:34 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Wasn’t Hunter doing crack and buying a gun?
Six years ago, yes. The laws he was prosecuted under in federal court are intended to reign in addicts who present a current risk to the public. There's a reason people are rarely, if ever, prosecuted with these years later, long after they've sobered up.
He's just an ordinary recovered addict these days. We don't generally lock those folks up and throw away the key over unactualized risks that they represented years before.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:42 PM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Six years ago, yes. The laws he was prosecuted under in federal court are intended to reign in addicts who present a current risk to the public. There's a reason people are rarely, if ever, prosecuted with these years later, long after they've sobered up.
He's just an ordinary recovered addict these days. We don't generally lock those folks up and throw away the key over unactualized risks that they represented years before.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:42 PM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Dunno I think if you violate federal gun laws you should be held accountable. I guess there’s differing opinions on that.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:45 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:45 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Every time a Democrat tells progressives they can't do something for whatever political reason, they are lying.
And they know they are lying.
posted by AlSweigart at 2:48 PM on December 2, 2024 [14 favorites]
And they know they are lying.
posted by AlSweigart at 2:48 PM on December 2, 2024 [14 favorites]
One is reminded, yet again, that the word "privilege" literally means "private law". That's what the rich and powerful have, as usual.
Now let's see if the architect of the original Crime Bill pardons anyone who is actually suffering. I'm guessing "no".
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:51 PM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
Now let's see if the architect of the original Crime Bill pardons anyone who is actually suffering. I'm guessing "no".
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:51 PM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
Harmless? Wasn’t Hunter doing crack and buying a gun?
Yes he was but it's harder for people to feel smug about this if you bring up the silly little issue of an illegally purchased firearm so shhh.
posted by kimberussell at 2:52 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Yes he was but it's harder for people to feel smug about this if you bring up the silly little issue of an illegally purchased firearm so shhh.
posted by kimberussell at 2:52 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
He skipped out on $1.4 million in taxes. That’s more than most people make in their lives. What the fuck are we even talking about here?
posted by Room 101 at 2:52 PM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by Room 101 at 2:52 PM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
I guess there’s differing opinions on that.
I'd say so. Not even the Trumpers who pushed for this prosecution are actually arguing this is something that should be regularly prosecuted. Just for Hunter. It's extraordinarily rare.
The law he was prosecuted under was intended to--and in virtually every other case it has ever been applied has been used to--recognize the risk an addict with a gun presents in the moment.
I never said the guy didn't break the law. But it is 100% clear that he was only ever being prosecuted for political reasons. You know this. I am not telling you something new.
He is harmless in the sense that the risk he once represented and that the law he was prosecuted under are meant to reign in, is long gone. This is why very nearly no one else ever gets prosecuted for this.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:56 PM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
I'd say so. Not even the Trumpers who pushed for this prosecution are actually arguing this is something that should be regularly prosecuted. Just for Hunter. It's extraordinarily rare.
The law he was prosecuted under was intended to--and in virtually every other case it has ever been applied has been used to--recognize the risk an addict with a gun presents in the moment.
I never said the guy didn't break the law. But it is 100% clear that he was only ever being prosecuted for political reasons. You know this. I am not telling you something new.
He is harmless in the sense that the risk he once represented and that the law he was prosecuted under are meant to reign in, is long gone. This is why very nearly no one else ever gets prosecuted for this.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:56 PM on December 2, 2024 [11 favorites]
This reminds me of the guy who gets tried for murder for pushing his rich uncle off of a cliff, and then tells the court that he should be found not guilty because now that he’s inherited all this money, he would never kill again.
posted by miltthetank at 3:00 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by miltthetank at 3:00 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
I never expected to see Let's Lock Up Ex-Addicts as a cool new take here, but y'all go off, I guess.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:02 PM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:02 PM on December 2, 2024 [13 favorites]
I don't think anyone's arguing Hunter shouldn't be held accountable, just that it shouldn't be a political prosecution (the original plea deal seemed more normal if you ask me).
posted by mazola at 3:04 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by mazola at 3:04 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
The rhetoric from every level of Team Orange Fascist is all about retribution and payback. Hunter Biden would have gotten some horrible long, vindictive sentence. What decent father would not pardon his son in such times?
posted by theora55 at 3:12 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 3:12 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Amplifying Republican talking points that got the judge and Congress to conspire to overturn a plea deal is retconning, at best, and it is noise that should be deleted from the thread.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:15 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:15 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Honestly who cares. This changes nothing about anything. The fascists are coming to harm staggering amounts of people. The oligarchs are coming to destroy the power of the federal government to do anything good (not that it does much but clean air clean water are nice) and steal everything. The Democratic leadership will bend the knee as sycophantic cowards (AOC, the squad, Bernie and a few others excepted). And Biden will do nothing for the many and many thousands of non violet people in federal prison.
Nothing changes. Who gives a shit about this pardon. It’s nothing - well it’ll be everything to the shining defenders of democracy such as the NYT, but to the rest of us, who cares.
The bad guys won. The opposition won’t do anything. Many will suffer. The end.
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:19 PM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
Nothing changes. Who gives a shit about this pardon. It’s nothing - well it’ll be everything to the shining defenders of democracy such as the NYT, but to the rest of us, who cares.
The bad guys won. The opposition won’t do anything. Many will suffer. The end.
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:19 PM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
I never expected to see Let's Lock Up Ex-Addicts as a cool new take here, but y'all go off, I guess.
I mean there's an argument for "abolition for everyone but aristocrats" but I'll just have another comment deleted so I'm not touching it.
posted by mittens at 3:24 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
I mean there's an argument for "abolition for everyone but aristocrats" but I'll just have another comment deleted so I'm not touching it.
posted by mittens at 3:24 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
Just so we are clear...
When an addict buys a gun, no puppies are drowned. No great works of literature poof out of existence. No trees are set ablaze. The act of an addict buying a gun in and of itself does nothing at all.
The reason why that law exists, why that is illegal, is because an addict with a firearm represents a far higher risk of violence than a typical armed citizen. The law offers a mechanism for law enforcement to reign in that risk within the moment.
The law was not intended as a gotcha to throw ex-addicts into prison. The confluence of risk that addict + gun represents ceases to exist when the person is long since no longer an addict. Even if the GOP had known in advance that Hunter Biden was guilty of this, it would have been a bonkers, vindictive thing to pursue him for that has little if any precedent. That the GOP did not know this though, is even worse. They literally launched an investigation hoping to catch him with anything at all.
If you think it's cool that millions of taxpayer money were spent to apply a law contrary to its purpose to harass an ex-addict after he sobered up over theoretical risks that never came to be and are long disappeared, that is pretty fucked up to my eyes. If you think it's some kind of victory against rich people getting away with things that other rich guys spent millions of public dollars to accomplish this, then I don't know what to tell you about that, either.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:24 PM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
When an addict buys a gun, no puppies are drowned. No great works of literature poof out of existence. No trees are set ablaze. The act of an addict buying a gun in and of itself does nothing at all.
The reason why that law exists, why that is illegal, is because an addict with a firearm represents a far higher risk of violence than a typical armed citizen. The law offers a mechanism for law enforcement to reign in that risk within the moment.
The law was not intended as a gotcha to throw ex-addicts into prison. The confluence of risk that addict + gun represents ceases to exist when the person is long since no longer an addict. Even if the GOP had known in advance that Hunter Biden was guilty of this, it would have been a bonkers, vindictive thing to pursue him for that has little if any precedent. That the GOP did not know this though, is even worse. They literally launched an investigation hoping to catch him with anything at all.
If you think it's cool that millions of taxpayer money were spent to apply a law contrary to its purpose to harass an ex-addict after he sobered up over theoretical risks that never came to be and are long disappeared, that is pretty fucked up to my eyes. If you think it's some kind of victory against rich people getting away with things that other rich guys spent millions of public dollars to accomplish this, then I don't know what to tell you about that, either.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:24 PM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
The law was not intended as a gotcha to throw ex-addicts into prison.
I agree with you that the law *shouldn't* be used to put ex-addicts in prison, but I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how often prosecutors love to do this to black and brown men all over this nation.
posted by corb at 3:31 PM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
I agree with you that the law *shouldn't* be used to put ex-addicts in prison, but I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how often prosecutors love to do this to black and brown men all over this nation.
posted by corb at 3:31 PM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
Literally, the exact specific intent of punishing Hunter Biden was to punish people who thought the rich should not be above the law. The message was, "Punish us for our actual crimes and we will shake every tree and dig and dig until we find a way to lock up someone you care about."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:33 PM on December 2, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:33 PM on December 2, 2024 [7 favorites]
Lots of persecutions are driven by career ambitions by DAs, not any noble pursuit of justice. There’s no noble ideal of a prosecution that Hunter’s has fallen from.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:37 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:37 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
I agree with you that the law *shouldn't* be used to put ex-addicts in prison, but I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how often prosecutors love to do this to black and brown men all over this nation.
Respectfully, I must point out that I do not in any way believe that the republican party's ongoing persecution of the sitting president's son is motivated by a desire to achieve racial equity in outcomes of the US justice system.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:41 PM on December 2, 2024 [14 favorites]
Respectfully, I must point out that I do not in any way believe that the republican party's ongoing persecution of the sitting president's son is motivated by a desire to achieve racial equity in outcomes of the US justice system.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:41 PM on December 2, 2024 [14 favorites]
So why even bother taking the political hit, which the entire party has to pay for, for the pardon?
Aww, shit. Maybe they'll lose the election!
posted by kirkaracha at 3:44 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Aww, shit. Maybe they'll lose the election!
posted by kirkaracha at 3:44 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Hunter Biden made money off his name, and was involved in some very shady stuff in addition to these crimes. But just as clearly this prosecution is political. Do judges normally go around rejecting plea deals? I think the entire right-wing noise machine howling about it had a lot to do with the current prosecution. I think it is still unethical to pardon family members, even if there's a political element to the prosecution.
Nearly every single Trump pardon bothers me more, and he made over 200. Only a couple of dozen were recommended by the standard clemency process. The majority were corrupt and/or irresponsible. Some are deeply disturbing, like pardoning war criminals and later campaigning with them, because apparently his supporters like war crimes.
Of course Trump's pardons have nothing directly to do with this current pardon, and it doesn't make what Biden did any more ethical. But I don't have the capacity for infinite outrage, and given all the outrages on the way, I'm going to ignore this one. In fact, I'm just going to forget any Biden ever existed, because they really don't matter now.
posted by netowl at 3:44 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
Nearly every single Trump pardon bothers me more, and he made over 200. Only a couple of dozen were recommended by the standard clemency process. The majority were corrupt and/or irresponsible. Some are deeply disturbing, like pardoning war criminals and later campaigning with them, because apparently his supporters like war crimes.
Of course Trump's pardons have nothing directly to do with this current pardon, and it doesn't make what Biden did any more ethical. But I don't have the capacity for infinite outrage, and given all the outrages on the way, I'm going to ignore this one. In fact, I'm just going to forget any Biden ever existed, because they really don't matter now.
posted by netowl at 3:44 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how often prosecutors love to do this to black and brown men all over this nation.
The notion that Republicans going after Biden is about racial justice is risable and offensive. Even if that may not be your intent, it is still offensive. And wrong.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:59 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
The notion that Republicans going after Biden is about racial justice is risable and offensive. Even if that may not be your intent, it is still offensive. And wrong.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:59 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Trump pardoned Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, Michael Flynn and Paul Manafort, as well as his son-in-law’s father, Charles Kushner — who he just appointed US ambassador to France.
posted by theora55 at 4:04 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 4:04 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
My god that is so far from corb’s point, what the fuck.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:07 PM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:07 PM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
I'm pretty much with you netowl. That transcript above was pretty damning. The gun charge, okay. Who else is being charged for that? Until after they shoot someone with their illegally purchased weapon. Like, no one. It was totally political by the MAGAs. But, lots of shadey behavior there.
Given what I see in our near future, yeah, that'd be a pardon I make. Lots of others too, but not for terrible people, that did really terrible things, as theora55 just mentioned. But yeah, it's Biden. Not thinking there will be really good pardons nor executive orders coming soon.
posted by Windopaene at 4:23 PM on December 2, 2024
Given what I see in our near future, yeah, that'd be a pardon I make. Lots of others too, but not for terrible people, that did really terrible things, as theora55 just mentioned. But yeah, it's Biden. Not thinking there will be really good pardons nor executive orders coming soon.
posted by Windopaene at 4:23 PM on December 2, 2024
OTOH, and I separated this from my above post, for potential deletion reasons...
What if Joe puts on his sunglasses, says, "Let's do this chums! LEEEEROY JENKINS!!!", and does a bunch of stuff. Seal Team Six scenarios and pardons all over the place and Executive orders that try to shut down all the shit we're going to deal with now ahead of time...
Probably not though...
(Save Democracy in our country bro... You are our only hope...)
Surely you don't expect me to save Democracy...?
Yes we do, and don't call me Shirley
posted by Windopaene at 4:29 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
What if Joe puts on his sunglasses, says, "Let's do this chums! LEEEEROY JENKINS!!!", and does a bunch of stuff. Seal Team Six scenarios and pardons all over the place and Executive orders that try to shut down all the shit we're going to deal with now ahead of time...
Probably not though...
(Save Democracy in our country bro... You are our only hope...)
Surely you don't expect me to save Democracy...?
Yes we do, and don't call me Shirley
posted by Windopaene at 4:29 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
Respectfully, I must point out that I do not in any way believe that the republican party's ongoing persecution of the sitting president's son is motivated by a desire to achieve racial equity in outcomes of the US justice system.
I mean, I completely agree with you - I am more reacting to the idea of the noble prosecutor who prosecutes only those who truly embody the intent of the law, rather than the prosecutor as I generally see them, people who use their prosecutorial discretion according to their whims on the regular. Like, the notion that the DA isn’t a political position who acts according to their priorities in the world is just fucking wild.
posted by corb at 4:38 PM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
I mean, I completely agree with you - I am more reacting to the idea of the noble prosecutor who prosecutes only those who truly embody the intent of the law, rather than the prosecutor as I generally see them, people who use their prosecutorial discretion according to their whims on the regular. Like, the notion that the DA isn’t a political position who acts according to their priorities in the world is just fucking wild.
posted by corb at 4:38 PM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
Having closely studied the careers of numerous DAs, including a former US senator, while watching Law & Order, I agree completely.
posted by box at 4:54 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by box at 4:54 PM on December 2, 2024 [1 favorite]
Look on the bright side, folks: this pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of the Biden 2028 campaign.
posted by pwnguin at 4:57 PM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by pwnguin at 4:57 PM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
The Joe Biden 2028 campaign, you mean.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:09 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:09 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
A different Biden being propped up by the ruling party as a fake opposition leader sounds more probable than "Democrats do something radical about the monied interests arrayed against their every action from SCOTUS to social media".
posted by Slackermagee at 5:14 PM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 5:14 PM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
From a bit earlier:
I never said the guy didn't break the law. But it is 100% clear that he was only ever being prosecuted for political reasons. You know this. I am not telling you something new.
Absolutely he is being prosecuted for political reasons. And you know what? He also earned millions of dollars for political reasons. I mean honestly, who hires a drug addict to serve on a board of an American investment company or a European energy company unless that drug addict is the son of a senator or vice president? Hunter Biden is the child of privilege and wealth and power who then wormed his way into even more money so that he could spend it all on drugs.
Here's what really pisses me off about this: how many non-rich young men are sitting in prison right now on trumped-up drug or gun charges due to selective prosecution or overzealous DA's or some kind of political posturing? How many parents are sitting at home right now, wondering if they will ever get to hug their child? And what is Biden doing for them?
Remember Kamala Harris' line in the campaign, about TFG? "He doesn't care about you: he only cares about himself." Seems like it now applies equally well to Biden.
Joe Biden has a lot to answer for, and this will be pretty high on the list.
posted by fuzzy.little.sock at 5:18 PM on December 2, 2024 [19 favorites]
I never said the guy didn't break the law. But it is 100% clear that he was only ever being prosecuted for political reasons. You know this. I am not telling you something new.
Absolutely he is being prosecuted for political reasons. And you know what? He also earned millions of dollars for political reasons. I mean honestly, who hires a drug addict to serve on a board of an American investment company or a European energy company unless that drug addict is the son of a senator or vice president? Hunter Biden is the child of privilege and wealth and power who then wormed his way into even more money so that he could spend it all on drugs.
Here's what really pisses me off about this: how many non-rich young men are sitting in prison right now on trumped-up drug or gun charges due to selective prosecution or overzealous DA's or some kind of political posturing? How many parents are sitting at home right now, wondering if they will ever get to hug their child? And what is Biden doing for them?
Remember Kamala Harris' line in the campaign, about TFG? "He doesn't care about you: he only cares about himself." Seems like it now applies equally well to Biden.
Joe Biden has a lot to answer for, and this will be pretty high on the list.
posted by fuzzy.little.sock at 5:18 PM on December 2, 2024 [19 favorites]
the notion that the DA isn’t a political position who acts according to their priorities in the world is just fucking wild.
It's actually possible to talk about the intent of the law and whether it's being honored, and not simply throw up our hands and say if a few jackals eat some, jackals should eat all.
We don't have to have a legal system based around the shittiest things that ever happened being standardized.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:12 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
It's actually possible to talk about the intent of the law and whether it's being honored, and not simply throw up our hands and say if a few jackals eat some, jackals should eat all.
We don't have to have a legal system based around the shittiest things that ever happened being standardized.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:12 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
I'll donate $10 to anyone who tracks the "Biden's pardon for his son is a travesty" columnists and later cross-references them with the "Trump's self-pardon is fine, actually" takes we are going to get later.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:33 PM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:33 PM on December 2, 2024 [8 favorites]
Here's what really pisses me off about this: how many non-rich young men are sitting in prison right now on trumped-up drug or gun charges due to selective prosecution or overzealous DA's or some kind of political posturing? How many parents are sitting at home right now, wondering if they will ever get to hug their child? And what is Biden doing for them?
Nothing, like normal. The answer is nothing. I believe in my heart of hearts that if Hunter Biden had gone to prison, Biden's political opponents would have taken great personal glee in literally torturing him; I think that anyone who does not believe this is naive. It's obvious who these people are.
So I would, in all seriousness, have done what Biden did. Not because my son does not deserve to face the consequences of his actions, but because the consequences of his actions do not include being held political prisoner for sadistic jollies.
That said, there are many people currently in prison who should not be there. Biden has the power to help them. I do not believe he will do so; he generally has not helped people who needed help.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:48 PM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
Nothing, like normal. The answer is nothing. I believe in my heart of hearts that if Hunter Biden had gone to prison, Biden's political opponents would have taken great personal glee in literally torturing him; I think that anyone who does not believe this is naive. It's obvious who these people are.
So I would, in all seriousness, have done what Biden did. Not because my son does not deserve to face the consequences of his actions, but because the consequences of his actions do not include being held political prisoner for sadistic jollies.
That said, there are many people currently in prison who should not be there. Biden has the power to help them. I do not believe he will do so; he generally has not helped people who needed help.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:48 PM on December 2, 2024 [16 favorites]
Absolutely he is being prosecuted for political reasons. And you know what? He also earned millions of dollars for political reasons
This gets to the heart of how I* feel about it. Of course he was singled out for prosecution because of his dad. He also previously benefitted from being in a position of public prominence that he never should have been in, and assuredly got away with things many people wouldn’t, because of his dad. I don’t much care about his crimes (though talking like six years ago is ancient history for a 54-year-old man is slightly underwhelming) but I’m not massively troubled by the injustice of his prosecution in the grand scheme of things, either. If there were political capital to lose over a pardon, I would think it a bit selfish of Joe to lose it. But I’m not sure there is and on a personal level I understand why he would want to move to protect Hunter with a Trump administration coming in.
* some ex-addict credentials!
posted by atoxyl at 6:58 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
This gets to the heart of how I* feel about it. Of course he was singled out for prosecution because of his dad. He also previously benefitted from being in a position of public prominence that he never should have been in, and assuredly got away with things many people wouldn’t, because of his dad. I don’t much care about his crimes (though talking like six years ago is ancient history for a 54-year-old man is slightly underwhelming) but I’m not massively troubled by the injustice of his prosecution in the grand scheme of things, either. If there were political capital to lose over a pardon, I would think it a bit selfish of Joe to lose it. But I’m not sure there is and on a personal level I understand why he would want to move to protect Hunter with a Trump administration coming in.
* some ex-addict credentials!
posted by atoxyl at 6:58 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Joe Biden doesn’t keep his promises. This is another one. I didn’t even care about this one. He didn’t keep Trump out of power. His administration actually helped create a situation where Trump got a second term and is more dangerous than if Biden had lost to him in 2020.
Joe Biden was almost a great president, but his large character flaws have brought our country very low.
posted by creiszhanson at 7:18 PM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
Joe Biden was almost a great president, but his large character flaws have brought our country very low.
posted by creiszhanson at 7:18 PM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
Kash Patel spent the last four years obsessing over Hunter and certainly was going to drag him through the dirt all over again on day one, if he's confirmed as FBI director. The pardon happened pretty quickly after the nomination, taking the wind out of Patel's sail isn't a bad move even though it looks shitty on the surface.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:38 PM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:38 PM on December 2, 2024 [12 favorites]
I liked this piece by Monica Hesse arguing that whether the pardon was wise or ethical or not, it is in keeping with Biden’s deepest values.
posted by eirias at 7:54 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by eirias at 7:54 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Joe Biden was almost a great president, but his large character flaws have brought our country very low.
Are there not 74 million Americans who chose a felon? Joe Biden is not God.
posted by ichomp at 8:23 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Are there not 74 million Americans who chose a felon? Joe Biden is not God.
posted by ichomp at 8:23 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
The total lack of empathy and vitriol of some of the comments here show that the majority of this country is soulless.
posted by ichomp at 8:25 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by ichomp at 8:25 PM on December 2, 2024 [4 favorites]
Having closely studied the careers of numerous DAs, including a former US senator, while watching Law & Order, I agree completely.
Lordy, box, but you brought to Jimmy Jones's Handyman to my mind there. And today I also learned they had to literally drag Jones away from his hot dog cart in Times Square to go on tour. All in all, it's been a very informative afternoon and evening.
posted by y2karl at 8:35 PM on December 2, 2024
Lordy, box, but you brought to Jimmy Jones's Handyman to my mind there. And today I also learned they had to literally drag Jones away from his hot dog cart in Times Square to go on tour. All in all, it's been a very informative afternoon and evening.
posted by y2karl at 8:35 PM on December 2, 2024
Empathy for whom?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:42 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:42 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Empathy for whom?
I'll take the bait. Empathy for ourselves and for everyone -- not reserved for people worse off than us or excluding people better off than us.
posted by ichomp at 9:20 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'll take the bait. Empathy for ourselves and for everyone -- not reserved for people worse off than us or excluding people better off than us.
posted by ichomp at 9:20 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
I would be on Team DirtyOldTown on this issue were it not for the fact that those leather straps that riders use to remind horses of the prevailing power relations are reins, not reigns. Misuse of the latter in place of the former represents a normalization of deviance up with which I shall not put. If Hunter Biden's defenders cannot be bothered displaying appropriate respect for the norms and standards of grammatical decency then he clearly deserves to rot in a supermax for the rest of his natural life. It's only fair.
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
Joe Biden was almost a great president, but his large character flaws have brought our country very low.
Blaming victims is expected in traditional and religious viewpoints, but not in liberal politics.
posted by Brian B. at 9:33 PM on December 2, 2024
Blaming victims is expected in traditional and religious viewpoints, but not in liberal politics.
posted by Brian B. at 9:33 PM on December 2, 2024
I liked this piece by Monica Hesse arguing that whether the pardon was wise or ethical or not, it is in keeping with Biden’s deepest values
Is that phrasing intentionally a little backhanded? Even if it’s understandable, looking out for family members is not high on the list of particular virtues for politicians.
posted by atoxyl at 9:37 PM on December 2, 2024
Is that phrasing intentionally a little backhanded? Even if it’s understandable, looking out for family members is not high on the list of particular virtues for politicians.
posted by atoxyl at 9:37 PM on December 2, 2024
I understand why he did it. I might have done the same in his position. He still shouldn't have done it.
Well, I first thought pretty much exactly that. As President and as a public servant, he should not have used his power where there is such a clear conflict of interest. As a Father, though, I would have done exactly the same thing and said to hell with anyone who disagreed.
It's clear to anyone with any part of a functioning brain that Hunter was singled out for attention because of who his Father is. No 'average' person would have attracted so much hate and so much public expenditure to torment a person that should have got a plea deal, paid his dues and moved on with life. It's likely that tormenting wouldn't stop just because his Father got fired from his job and I'm certain that played on Biden's mind (he suggests as much in his statement). If I was Biden, I would have done the same in a heartbeat and fuck whatever anyone else thought.
The tragedy is that he didn't take the opportunity to point out that there are many thousands of other people who have been subject to unfair penalties for the crime of being poor or black or queer or trans or whatever. If you're going to be remembered for the rest of your life as the guy who pardoned your own son after saying you wouldn't, why not shoot for the moon and pardon everyone you can find who has been treated harshly because of who they are rather than what their crime was? Fuck it, pardon everyone convicted of non-violent crimes and let Trump sort that shitfight out. I'm not disappointed he pardoned his son. I'm disappointed he pardoned only his son.
posted by dg at 10:37 PM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
Well, I first thought pretty much exactly that. As President and as a public servant, he should not have used his power where there is such a clear conflict of interest. As a Father, though, I would have done exactly the same thing and said to hell with anyone who disagreed.
It's clear to anyone with any part of a functioning brain that Hunter was singled out for attention because of who his Father is. No 'average' person would have attracted so much hate and so much public expenditure to torment a person that should have got a plea deal, paid his dues and moved on with life. It's likely that tormenting wouldn't stop just because his Father got fired from his job and I'm certain that played on Biden's mind (he suggests as much in his statement). If I was Biden, I would have done the same in a heartbeat and fuck whatever anyone else thought.
The tragedy is that he didn't take the opportunity to point out that there are many thousands of other people who have been subject to unfair penalties for the crime of being poor or black or queer or trans or whatever. If you're going to be remembered for the rest of your life as the guy who pardoned your own son after saying you wouldn't, why not shoot for the moon and pardon everyone you can find who has been treated harshly because of who they are rather than what their crime was? Fuck it, pardon everyone convicted of non-violent crimes and let Trump sort that shitfight out. I'm not disappointed he pardoned his son. I'm disappointed he pardoned only his son.
posted by dg at 10:37 PM on December 2, 2024 [9 favorites]
Blaming victims is expected in traditional and religious viewpoints, but not in liberal politics.
For another month and change, Joseph Robinette Biden is the most powerful person in the entire fucking world. He is not, in any relevant sense in this situation, a victim.
I don't give a shit about the pardon--Hunter Biden is absolutely no worse than any other rich failson--except insofar as his dad is a coward and a monster for (among other things) not pardoning every single one of the other 158,000+ inmates in federal custody. But Biden père has just made it abundantly clear, if it wasn't before,where the limits of his much-vaunted "empathy" are.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:03 PM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
For another month and change, Joseph Robinette Biden is the most powerful person in the entire fucking world. He is not, in any relevant sense in this situation, a victim.
I don't give a shit about the pardon--Hunter Biden is absolutely no worse than any other rich failson--except insofar as his dad is a coward and a monster for (among other things) not pardoning every single one of the other 158,000+ inmates in federal custody. But Biden père has just made it abundantly clear, if it wasn't before,where the limits of his much-vaunted "empathy" are.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:03 PM on December 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
his dad is a coward and a monster for (among other things) not pardoning every single one of the other 158,000+ inmates in federal custody.
I also would like him to pardon other inmates. However, he has already taken bold action like ending the war in Afghanistan (like the anti-war left wanted) and forgiven student loans (like the progressives wanted). The result was the people who asked for it and whom it helped didn't reward him; they punished him, in fact.
Really hard to make a case for why he should do things people want, to be honest.
posted by ichomp at 11:19 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
I also would like him to pardon other inmates. However, he has already taken bold action like ending the war in Afghanistan (like the anti-war left wanted) and forgiven student loans (like the progressives wanted). The result was the people who asked for it and whom it helped didn't reward him; they punished him, in fact.
Really hard to make a case for why he should do things people want, to be honest.
posted by ichomp at 11:19 PM on December 2, 2024 [2 favorites]
For another month and change, Joseph Robinette Biden is the most powerful person in the entire fucking world. He is not, in any relevant sense in this situation, a victim.
That's the myth of the presidency with public and congressional support, but without it he is helpless to stop the complete reversal of his efforts.
posted by Brian B. at 11:22 PM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
That's the myth of the presidency with public and congressional support, but without it he is helpless to stop the complete reversal of his efforts.
posted by Brian B. at 11:22 PM on December 2, 2024 [5 favorites]
That's the myth of the presidency with public and congressional support, but without it he is helpless to stop the complete reversal of his efforts.
Exactly, Brian B. It's really weird that people have a wishlist for Biden to complete while opposing him in every practical way.
posted by ichomp at 11:32 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
Exactly, Brian B. It's really weird that people have a wishlist for Biden to complete while opposing him in every practical way.
posted by ichomp at 11:32 PM on December 2, 2024 [3 favorites]
1. Presidents should not have pardon powers.
2. I would have done the same in the same circumstances.
3. It will make not a jot of difference to how Trump and his goons will behave. They will do what they will anyway.
4. Biden should be drawing up blanket mass pardons for a whole lot of shit, including for federal employees from the top to the bottom of the government (for anything related to doing their legit jobs).
5. In the context of what has happened more broadly and what is very clearly coming from 20 Jan 2025 on, I could not give even the slightest shit about it. It is such small potatoes it is not even on the list of things to be worrying about at any point in our remaining lives. There are going to be vastly more important and pressing fights to have, and lots of them. Save your outrage and energy and resources for the stuff that actually matters.
This is not one of them. Not even close.
posted by Pouteria at 1:36 AM on December 3, 2024 [11 favorites]
2. I would have done the same in the same circumstances.
3. It will make not a jot of difference to how Trump and his goons will behave. They will do what they will anyway.
4. Biden should be drawing up blanket mass pardons for a whole lot of shit, including for federal employees from the top to the bottom of the government (for anything related to doing their legit jobs).
5. In the context of what has happened more broadly and what is very clearly coming from 20 Jan 2025 on, I could not give even the slightest shit about it. It is such small potatoes it is not even on the list of things to be worrying about at any point in our remaining lives. There are going to be vastly more important and pressing fights to have, and lots of them. Save your outrage and energy and resources for the stuff that actually matters.
This is not one of them. Not even close.
posted by Pouteria at 1:36 AM on December 3, 2024 [11 favorites]
I would not have pardoned my son if he was a cheating, tax-evading drug addicted intimidator who blackmails people using my name and stature. But even if I did decide to pardon him, then I would make sure not to brag about not pardoning him first. Principles and precedent last. People don't.
posted by dmh at 1:57 AM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by dmh at 1:57 AM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
Hell, if I were Biden, I would admit to some crime and pardon myself, then let all the hypocrites bray like jackasses.
posted by oldnumberseven at 2:08 AM on December 3, 2024
posted by oldnumberseven at 2:08 AM on December 3, 2024
the people who asked for it and whom it helped didn't reward him; they punished him, in fact.
Didn't happen. The people who asked for it are politically engaged, pretty much by definition, and the overwhelming bulk of those people obviously voted Democratic. In no way does that count as punishment and I am fed up to the back teeth with centrists taking pot shots at leftists on the spurious basis that it does.
Biden was punished at the last election not due to the ill will of the politically engaged (which it's impossible to be a leftist without being) but by indifference among the much larger population of those less so. The Democratic turnout in 2024 was very similar to that achieved in 2016; the Republican turnout, though, maintained the anomalously high level achieved in 2020.
One of TFG's standard talking points is the unprecedentedly large number of Americans he persuaded to vote for him in 2020 and despite the rank and steaming horseshit he routinely shovels out on crowd sizes, that particular claim is perfectly true. The only reason the Democrats won in 2020 was that four years of TFG had been awful enough in so many ways as to make an even bigger crowd of the normally politically disengaged get off their arses to kick the prick out.
The strategy of never even slowing down the election campaigning after taking office clearly pays off in high turnouts. It might well behoove the Democrats to build their own regular mass rally movement starting right now.
posted by flabdablet at 3:42 AM on December 3, 2024 [10 favorites]
Didn't happen. The people who asked for it are politically engaged, pretty much by definition, and the overwhelming bulk of those people obviously voted Democratic. In no way does that count as punishment and I am fed up to the back teeth with centrists taking pot shots at leftists on the spurious basis that it does.
Biden was punished at the last election not due to the ill will of the politically engaged (which it's impossible to be a leftist without being) but by indifference among the much larger population of those less so. The Democratic turnout in 2024 was very similar to that achieved in 2016; the Republican turnout, though, maintained the anomalously high level achieved in 2020.
One of TFG's standard talking points is the unprecedentedly large number of Americans he persuaded to vote for him in 2020 and despite the rank and steaming horseshit he routinely shovels out on crowd sizes, that particular claim is perfectly true. The only reason the Democrats won in 2020 was that four years of TFG had been awful enough in so many ways as to make an even bigger crowd of the normally politically disengaged get off their arses to kick the prick out.
The strategy of never even slowing down the election campaigning after taking office clearly pays off in high turnouts. It might well behoove the Democrats to build their own regular mass rally movement starting right now.
posted by flabdablet at 3:42 AM on December 3, 2024 [10 favorites]
Is that phrasing intentionally a little backhanded? Even if it’s understandable, looking out for family members is not high on the list of particular virtues for politicians.
posted by atoxyl at 9:37 PM on December 2
Maybe? I’m not a big fan of the pardon, so I liked this essay that put it in context of who Biden is. He’s not my favorite president and I wouldn’t call him an especially virtuous one, no. As far as I know we’ve only had one virtuous man in that office in my lifetime and he was widely panned as a bad president.
This has the potential to be the most interesting lame duck period in history. I hope that now that this understandable act of corruption is out of the way we will see more actions that feel more like shoring up the edifice the rest of us are left behind in. I was a little surprised to see a headline this morning about the giant pile of arms he’s sending to Ukraine. Normally I’m not one of these “stop sending aid overseas when stuff’s broken here” people, but: really? Maybe the impulse is to focus on things that can’t be undone seven weeks later. Also, I’m sure he knows a lot I don’t about what could be coming down the pike for Europe once the US inevitably hands the keys to Putin.
posted by eirias at 3:49 AM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 9:37 PM on December 2
Maybe? I’m not a big fan of the pardon, so I liked this essay that put it in context of who Biden is. He’s not my favorite president and I wouldn’t call him an especially virtuous one, no. As far as I know we’ve only had one virtuous man in that office in my lifetime and he was widely panned as a bad president.
This has the potential to be the most interesting lame duck period in history. I hope that now that this understandable act of corruption is out of the way we will see more actions that feel more like shoring up the edifice the rest of us are left behind in. I was a little surprised to see a headline this morning about the giant pile of arms he’s sending to Ukraine. Normally I’m not one of these “stop sending aid overseas when stuff’s broken here” people, but: really? Maybe the impulse is to focus on things that can’t be undone seven weeks later. Also, I’m sure he knows a lot I don’t about what could be coming down the pike for Europe once the US inevitably hands the keys to Putin.
posted by eirias at 3:49 AM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
“Biden.mp4” [1:59:45]—Elliot Sang, 29 November 2024
Biden Time: Unpacking the Life, Reputation and Politics of Joe Bidenposted by ob1quixote at 4:05 AM on December 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
The whole reason for the first Trump impeachment was his illegal withholding of already Congressionally authorized aid to Ukraine in an attempt to force Zelenskyy into making up false allegations against Hunter Biden. In a world where that already happened, and absolutely nothing was done about it, I just can't be mad about this.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:20 AM on December 3, 2024 [12 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:20 AM on December 3, 2024 [12 favorites]
The problem for the defenders of the democratic leadership is that their classic excuse of “we REALLY wanted to do something good but unfortunately because of xyz reason (but really our donors) can’t be used in this case.
Remember that the decision many are defending is to pardon Hunter and no one else (so far). This would be a much more defensive and even great thing if he pardoned, say, a couple dozen people who really deserved to be pardoned. But he chose not to. Not for political reasons, not because he can’t, not for norms (we’re done with those) but because he simply does not want to. Defend that.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:25 AM on December 3, 2024 [9 favorites]
Remember that the decision many are defending is to pardon Hunter and no one else (so far). This would be a much more defensive and even great thing if he pardoned, say, a couple dozen people who really deserved to be pardoned. But he chose not to. Not for political reasons, not because he can’t, not for norms (we’re done with those) but because he simply does not want to. Defend that.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:25 AM on December 3, 2024 [9 favorites]
Did Biden announce that he's done with pardons? There are seven weeks left to go until he's out of office. I fully expect that there will be preemptive pardons for large Trump targets like Fauci and Liz Cheney, but the Kash Patel nomination gave him some great timing on Hunter. I also like the idea of a blanket pardon for any federal employee that served during his administration for duties on the job.
posted by JoeZydeco at 4:41 AM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 4:41 AM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
Another classic excuse I’m tired of: we don’t want to do it now (for whatever reason) but maybe we will in the future! Regardless not bundling it with Hunters pardon is bad politics.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:45 AM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:45 AM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
I totally hear you. Biden continually brings a potato peeler to a knife fight and this probably will be another disappointment in a long line of them.
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:04 AM on December 3, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:04 AM on December 3, 2024 [8 favorites]
The result was the people who asked for it and whom it helped didn't reward him; they punished him, in fact.
Punished him by...what? He wasn't on the ballot. There was no mechanism for supporters of, as you mention, student loan forgiveness, to later punish Biden for his truly heinous acts as president.
posted by mittens at 5:12 AM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
Punished him by...what? He wasn't on the ballot. There was no mechanism for supporters of, as you mention, student loan forgiveness, to later punish Biden for his truly heinous acts as president.
posted by mittens at 5:12 AM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
Here's hoping Biden does issue more pardons, or at least does something.
At this moment in time my issue with the Hunter Biden pardon is that it's anti-solidarity. It's like Joe and Mika visiting Mar-a-lago. These are very prominent, well-connected people who have the resources to fight whatever crap might come their way, and they're choosing to take the easy way out because privilege. Fuck all of them.
I do think it's rich to defend the pardoning of Hunter as "necessary" because otherwise the Republicans might do him some harm. How long has it been since many of us looked the other way on genocide in Gaza on the promise that voting for Harris was for the greater good?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:30 AM on December 3, 2024 [9 favorites]
At this moment in time my issue with the Hunter Biden pardon is that it's anti-solidarity. It's like Joe and Mika visiting Mar-a-lago. These are very prominent, well-connected people who have the resources to fight whatever crap might come their way, and they're choosing to take the easy way out because privilege. Fuck all of them.
I do think it's rich to defend the pardoning of Hunter as "necessary" because otherwise the Republicans might do him some harm. How long has it been since many of us looked the other way on genocide in Gaza on the promise that voting for Harris was for the greater good?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:30 AM on December 3, 2024 [9 favorites]
Not for political reasons, not because he can’t, not for norms (we’re done with those) but because he simply does not want to. Defend that.
Sure, I'll take a crack at it!
You're absolutely right that he should have pardoned Hunter as part of a group of pardons for similar kinds of convictions in some way or another (I'm not picky). So then the thing he did wrong was failing to pardon more people and not really that he did pardon his kid.
posted by VTX at 5:36 AM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
Sure, I'll take a crack at it!
You're absolutely right that he should have pardoned Hunter as part of a group of pardons for similar kinds of convictions in some way or another (I'm not picky). So then the thing he did wrong was failing to pardon more people and not really that he did pardon his kid.
posted by VTX at 5:36 AM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
Yeah. I think that about sums it up VTX.
He also could've fucking punched Trump in the fucking face when they met at the White House post election.
I think what frustrates me and other people is that we're looking to our true leaders for direction in these dark times and all they appear to be doing is pardoning their fucking failboat children.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:51 AM on December 3, 2024 [13 favorites]
He also could've fucking punched Trump in the fucking face when they met at the White House post election.
I think what frustrates me and other people is that we're looking to our true leaders for direction in these dark times and all they appear to be doing is pardoning their fucking failboat children.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:51 AM on December 3, 2024 [13 favorites]
Maybe Biden's quietly putting all his ducks in a row to do something big that will really frustrate Trump.
....just like Merrick Garland and the DOJ spent all that time quietly assembling the indictments against Trump so they'd be extra-solid and appeal-proof.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:00 AM on December 3, 2024 [13 favorites]
....just like Merrick Garland and the DOJ spent all that time quietly assembling the indictments against Trump so they'd be extra-solid and appeal-proof.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:00 AM on December 3, 2024 [13 favorites]
I want to add I don't know that I wouldn't have done the same thing as Biden, if I was Biden. His familial arc is deeply tragic and the political circumstances are deranged. I don't begrudge them another couple of holidays together.
In any case, the cynical decay started a long time before Biden pardoned his son (after saying he wouldn't, after running again, after saying he wouldn't, until he backed out, after saying he wouldn't). The cynical decay is when politics devolves to a grim, joyless struggle for dominance and survival, in which you also can't not play. Biden is a survivor.
posted by dmh at 6:05 AM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
In any case, the cynical decay started a long time before Biden pardoned his son (after saying he wouldn't, after running again, after saying he wouldn't, until he backed out, after saying he wouldn't). The cynical decay is when politics devolves to a grim, joyless struggle for dominance and survival, in which you also can't not play. Biden is a survivor.
posted by dmh at 6:05 AM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
Maybe I'll mellow on Biden with time. I was very harsh on Faucci during the pandemic for not taking much more of a stand against Trump. There wasn't much Faucci could do and remaining in Trump's good graces allowed him to stay in his position and quietly eke out a net positive. But it also became much easier to forgive Faucci for his Faustian decision because Biden had won in 2020 and we could all breath a sigh of relief....
I guess what I'm saying is: there can be no defense or rehabilitation of Biden's legacy until Trumpism is defeated. Full stop.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:17 AM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
I guess what I'm saying is: there can be no defense or rehabilitation of Biden's legacy until Trumpism is defeated. Full stop.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:17 AM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
Interesting point MattD, about what do they want Hunter Biden to testify? Are they after someone else from that testimony? Or merely trying to get him on something?
posted by jeffburdges at 6:30 AM on December 3, 2024
posted by jeffburdges at 6:30 AM on December 3, 2024
Remember James Whitey Bulger? The Bureau of prisons shuffled him from one prison to another in a transparent attempt to get him murdered by another prisoner.
An 80 year old man in a wheelchair. Not that he didn't earn this treatment. But it was gross. And this was before Trump.
Taking Hunter Biden off the game board is more than justified. Hunter Biden deserves prison for what he did. But not a Trump prison.
posted by ocschwar at 6:35 AM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
An 80 year old man in a wheelchair. Not that he didn't earn this treatment. But it was gross. And this was before Trump.
Taking Hunter Biden off the game board is more than justified. Hunter Biden deserves prison for what he did. But not a Trump prison.
posted by ocschwar at 6:35 AM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
With or without Kash Patel at the helm, rest assured that the Republicans will hold a breathless presser in 2025 announcing fresh investigations into the many, many crimes of the Biden Crime Family. They will have more reasons than H&R Block why Joe Biden committed crimes as Veep, as POTUS and as a private citizen, why Hunter's pre-2014 activities and what he had for lunch this week are both light treason, and why three or four other Bidens need to be held accountable as well.
Whether or not they lead to indictments is irrelevant. To reinforce to the base that there's fire there, producing thick clouds of noxious smoke is sufficient.
posted by delfin at 6:35 AM on December 3, 2024 [8 favorites]
Whether or not they lead to indictments is irrelevant. To reinforce to the base that there's fire there, producing thick clouds of noxious smoke is sufficient.
posted by delfin at 6:35 AM on December 3, 2024 [8 favorites]
So what?
Remember those extremely damning January 6th hearings? Remember all the actual treason Trump and various members of his administration engaged in? Remember how none of that ended up mattering at all?
Honestly, I have no sympathy for Hunter. Any harassment he receives from Trump's DoJ is just a painful reminder of how Biden's DoJ completely dropped the ball and failed to hold Trump accountable. That's why this pardon is so painful.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:52 AM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
Remember those extremely damning January 6th hearings? Remember all the actual treason Trump and various members of his administration engaged in? Remember how none of that ended up mattering at all?
Honestly, I have no sympathy for Hunter. Any harassment he receives from Trump's DoJ is just a painful reminder of how Biden's DoJ completely dropped the ball and failed to hold Trump accountable. That's why this pardon is so painful.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:52 AM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
That's the part that makes me pull my hair out. Does the Democratic leadership really think that not prosecuting obvious and notorious crimes committed by Trump and dozens and dozens of his appointees and accomplices mean the fascists won't just make up anything and fraudulently prosecute said leadership? Hell, something like a third of people believe Q-Anon is real!
posted by ob1quixote at 6:57 AM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 6:57 AM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
Remember that the decision many are defending is to pardon Hunter and no one else (so far).
Yeah, this is to me the big thing. It's not pardoning Hunter itself that's an issue (I don't particularly have a positive desire for Hunter to be in prison; I mostly don't have a positive desire for anyone who doesn't present an ongoing danger to be in prison). It's that this is the only thing he's sticking his neck out to do, as far as anyone can tell. There is a lot of bad shit coming down the pike for a lot of people and the only person he bestirs himself to protect is a family member? That's terrible ethics and also terrible political optics.
That's the myth of the presidency with public and congressional support, but without it he is helpless to stop the complete reversal of his efforts.
There are absolutely things he can't do (legislation is out of his hands), and things he can do which wouldn't have long-term effectiveness (any executive action mandating a policy change could be flipped right back after he's gone), but that is far from being short of effective things to do. There are lots of executive actions he could take which would be completely irreversible or which would at the very least make the Trump administration work to reverse them. He could issue strong sweeping pardons, which are irreversible. He could order the release of any sealed or classified information which is in the public interest to know, and once that genie's out of the bottle it can't be put back in. He could order wider sharing of administrative-state data with the public, which I know is a matter of interest to people working to archive the (particularly scientific) products of US agencies whose fate is uncertain --- that won't help with the future of those agencies, because those data-sharing policies won't last, but it will help with an immediate, important project to preserve government work product. He could order the FDA to make mifepristone available OTC, which could be reversed but would force the Trump administration to be publicly unpopular on the issue.
These are just off the top of my head. A room full of Democratic policy wonks given a few hours could probably come up with a much longer list of executive orders achieving important, durable, and irreversible goals. And in this environment, the only newsworthy thing he's choosing to do is to protect his own family. That's some serious bullshit. Maybe he's planning to do all those other things too and is gonna trickle them out, but that's terrible politics, starting out with the most obviously self-serving action.
posted by jackbishop at 7:06 AM on December 3, 2024 [31 favorites]
Yeah, this is to me the big thing. It's not pardoning Hunter itself that's an issue (I don't particularly have a positive desire for Hunter to be in prison; I mostly don't have a positive desire for anyone who doesn't present an ongoing danger to be in prison). It's that this is the only thing he's sticking his neck out to do, as far as anyone can tell. There is a lot of bad shit coming down the pike for a lot of people and the only person he bestirs himself to protect is a family member? That's terrible ethics and also terrible political optics.
That's the myth of the presidency with public and congressional support, but without it he is helpless to stop the complete reversal of his efforts.
There are absolutely things he can't do (legislation is out of his hands), and things he can do which wouldn't have long-term effectiveness (any executive action mandating a policy change could be flipped right back after he's gone), but that is far from being short of effective things to do. There are lots of executive actions he could take which would be completely irreversible or which would at the very least make the Trump administration work to reverse them. He could issue strong sweeping pardons, which are irreversible. He could order the release of any sealed or classified information which is in the public interest to know, and once that genie's out of the bottle it can't be put back in. He could order wider sharing of administrative-state data with the public, which I know is a matter of interest to people working to archive the (particularly scientific) products of US agencies whose fate is uncertain --- that won't help with the future of those agencies, because those data-sharing policies won't last, but it will help with an immediate, important project to preserve government work product. He could order the FDA to make mifepristone available OTC, which could be reversed but would force the Trump administration to be publicly unpopular on the issue.
These are just off the top of my head. A room full of Democratic policy wonks given a few hours could probably come up with a much longer list of executive orders achieving important, durable, and irreversible goals. And in this environment, the only newsworthy thing he's choosing to do is to protect his own family. That's some serious bullshit. Maybe he's planning to do all those other things too and is gonna trickle them out, but that's terrible politics, starting out with the most obviously self-serving action.
posted by jackbishop at 7:06 AM on December 3, 2024 [31 favorites]
People are arguing over the ethics or legality of this one action while I'm envisioning a scenario in which, from the inauguration podium, Trump will declare martial law and have all the Democrats on the stand arrested.***
The few posters on the right track (IMHO) are those looking at the dark future and asking the only question that's important - What else can/should every non Trumper do before January 20. Pearl clutching over Hunter Biden now feels like stoned college kids having an esoteric debate while the dorm building burns around them.
(* I'm exaggerating, pay me no mind. I'm the fool who, in January 2017, predicted here that when that term ended, Trump would not leave office peacefully.)
posted by NorthernLite at 9:03 AM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
The few posters on the right track (IMHO) are those looking at the dark future and asking the only question that's important - What else can/should every non Trumper do before January 20. Pearl clutching over Hunter Biden now feels like stoned college kids having an esoteric debate while the dorm building burns around them.
(* I'm exaggerating, pay me no mind. I'm the fool who, in January 2017, predicted here that when that term ended, Trump would not leave office peacefully.)
posted by NorthernLite at 9:03 AM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
This is a post about Joe Biden's pardoning of Hunter Biden. What's the point of coming here and telling us we should be talking about it?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:24 AM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:24 AM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter: like stoned college kids having an esoteric debate while the dorm building burns around them.
posted by mazola at 9:30 AM on December 3, 2024
posted by mazola at 9:30 AM on December 3, 2024
The few posters on the right track (IMHO) are those looking at the dark future and asking the only question that's important - What else can/should every non Trumper do before January 20.
You know who should also be asking themselves that? Joe Biden. I hear he's still the president until January 20th.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:36 AM on December 3, 2024 [8 favorites]
You know who should also be asking themselves that? Joe Biden. I hear he's still the president until January 20th.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:36 AM on December 3, 2024 [8 favorites]
It's fascinating to see some of the responses in this thread. I sometimes wonder how MAGA can see so much evidence provided to them and yet choose to ignore it. It's interesting to see some Democrats doing the same thing when it comes to excusing Hunter's actions.
I read Hunter Biden's own memoir. I also read his ex-wife's memoir. It's very clear that Hunter Biden peddled his influence to get millions and intentionally evaded taxes, and that it was not just due to addiction.
When we express anger at millionaires for reducing their taxes, most of them are doing it in a legal way. They pay capital gains rate of 15-24% instead of income tax of 35%. Hunter went much further and actually did not file tax returns and paid nothing. MeFi talks about guillotines and eating the rich about millionaires who are legally using lower tax rates, but somehow it's okay for Hunter to completely evade taxes?
It's challenging to discuss with users who have already decided not to listen. If I provide a link, they say the news outlet isn't good enough. If I provide the actual texts from IRS documents, they'll say the texts are uncorroborated.
If I bring up the decade of lying and corruption described in Hunter's ex-wife's memoir, are you going to say it doesn't count because she's just the crazy ex? What if I bring up the confessions from Hunter's own memoir about evading taxes for years while traveling the world collecting millions? Do you have a good one-liner for why Hunter's own confessions should be ignored?
posted by vienna at 10:20 AM on December 3, 2024 [10 favorites]
I read Hunter Biden's own memoir. I also read his ex-wife's memoir. It's very clear that Hunter Biden peddled his influence to get millions and intentionally evaded taxes, and that it was not just due to addiction.
When we express anger at millionaires for reducing their taxes, most of them are doing it in a legal way. They pay capital gains rate of 15-24% instead of income tax of 35%. Hunter went much further and actually did not file tax returns and paid nothing. MeFi talks about guillotines and eating the rich about millionaires who are legally using lower tax rates, but somehow it's okay for Hunter to completely evade taxes?
It's challenging to discuss with users who have already decided not to listen. If I provide a link, they say the news outlet isn't good enough. If I provide the actual texts from IRS documents, they'll say the texts are uncorroborated.
If I bring up the decade of lying and corruption described in Hunter's ex-wife's memoir, are you going to say it doesn't count because she's just the crazy ex? What if I bring up the confessions from Hunter's own memoir about evading taxes for years while traveling the world collecting millions? Do you have a good one-liner for why Hunter's own confessions should be ignored?
posted by vienna at 10:20 AM on December 3, 2024 [10 favorites]
Sorry all, Biden wont do shit. He's checked out. There are SO many things he can do to help a little bit against the coming Tsunami of Trumpian nightmares (eg protect all dreamers via EO, who cares if the Trumpers move against it, just do it; hell, EO all undocumented people in the US without felony records get to stay as citizens; EO fucking everything possible, he's got immunity to do anything related to his office, thanks Roberts).
I bet you dollars to donuts he does nothing to help the J6 committee members like Cheney and brave testifiers like Hutchinson. Cause he's a terrible person.
Oh so sorry pols that you might have to work over the holidays like 90% of us plebs do, fuck you dem leadership.
Or resign and let Harris do all that. California would be much more likely to elect her as governor if she does something cause Joe aint doing jack all. At least she's got some semblance of a spine.
posted by WatTylerJr at 10:29 AM on December 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
I bet you dollars to donuts he does nothing to help the J6 committee members like Cheney and brave testifiers like Hutchinson. Cause he's a terrible person.
Oh so sorry pols that you might have to work over the holidays like 90% of us plebs do, fuck you dem leadership.
Or resign and let Harris do all that. California would be much more likely to elect her as governor if she does something cause Joe aint doing jack all. At least she's got some semblance of a spine.
posted by WatTylerJr at 10:29 AM on December 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
Note that Biden pardoning his son, who has been threatened by the potential head of the FBI (along with the Obama's, Clinton's, Jack Smith and so on) has hijacked all the media (four articles on this on the front page of the fucking NYT) the media has been sidetracked by the horrific allegations against the guy tapped to be the fucking Defense Secretary. Welcome to Trump 2.0 where the media has learned nothing.
I am 100% in favor of Biden's decision. IMHO the Democrats are still playing by rules that are no longer valid, so go Joe and fuck the media pearl clutching.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:30 AM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
I am 100% in favor of Biden's decision. IMHO the Democrats are still playing by rules that are no longer valid, so go Joe and fuck the media pearl clutching.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:30 AM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
Welcome to Trump 2.0 where the media has learned nothing.
The NYTimes has a front-page article about why this pardon is bad, with an article right next to it about Kushner's pardoned dad getting an ambassadorship in France. Can't be bothered to be manipulated into feeling outrage about this! Sorry Metafilter!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:34 AM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
The NYTimes has a front-page article about why this pardon is bad, with an article right next to it about Kushner's pardoned dad getting an ambassadorship in France. Can't be bothered to be manipulated into feeling outrage about this! Sorry Metafilter!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:34 AM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
the media has been sidetracked by the horrific allegations against the guy tapped to be the fucking Defense Secretary.
Biden has complete control over when he issues the pardons. If this pardon is distracting the media from horrific allegations against Trump's would-be defense secretary, isn't it kind of on Biden for distracting the media?
He of all people should know doing this would attract a lot of attention. Why the fuck did he do it now?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:54 AM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
Biden has complete control over when he issues the pardons. If this pardon is distracting the media from horrific allegations against Trump's would-be defense secretary, isn't it kind of on Biden for distracting the media?
He of all people should know doing this would attract a lot of attention. Why the fuck did he do it now?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:54 AM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
Blaming the refs is really gonna help us win 2028
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:06 AM on December 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:06 AM on December 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
I am impressed with the optimism of thinking there will be any chance whatsoever for us to win back the presidency in 2028.
I would like to be there with you on that, but I am not. Not at all.
It's yet another reason why I don't think this pardon matters.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:25 AM on December 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
I would like to be there with you on that, but I am not. Not at all.
It's yet another reason why I don't think this pardon matters.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:25 AM on December 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
I mean, if the Democratic politicians and their white liberal base keep on blaming everybody but themselves (and especially PoC) for the reults, it wouldn't be close even if there were free and fair elections.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:34 AM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:34 AM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
It's yet another reason why I don't think this pardon matters.
In that case does it really matter in either direction?
posted by atoxyl at 12:06 PM on December 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
In that case does it really matter in either direction?
posted by atoxyl at 12:06 PM on December 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
In that case does it really matter in either direction?
If you're asking "Does pardoning Hunter Biden or not pardoning Hunter Biden affect the Dems' chance of electing a new president in 2028?" the answer, to my eyes, is "Neither affects it at all."
So if that would be the only reason you'd see clear to pardon him, and if you're cool with that guy possibly being locked up in a supermax over a GOP grudge, then yes, you could leave him twisting in the wind.
If you were/are that kind of person, yep, you could do that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:17 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
If you're asking "Does pardoning Hunter Biden or not pardoning Hunter Biden affect the Dems' chance of electing a new president in 2028?" the answer, to my eyes, is "Neither affects it at all."
So if that would be the only reason you'd see clear to pardon him, and if you're cool with that guy possibly being locked up in a supermax over a GOP grudge, then yes, you could leave him twisting in the wind.
If you were/are that kind of person, yep, you could do that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:17 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
Pardoning Hunter without pardoning other people will absolutely piss people off and will undoubtedly hurt the dems politically. Not much because its just one thing on one day, but it ain't helping.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:22 PM on December 3, 2024 [11 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:22 PM on December 3, 2024 [11 favorites]
But the question is, what's the least number of people he can pardon without everyone getting pissed off? Clinton? Obama? Pelosi? Jack Smith? Congressional staffers? The entire federal workforce?
Pardoning Hunter to spare him the wrath of Republicans just opens up a can of worms about who's worthy/privileged enough to earn a seat on the lifeboat and who gets to be thrown to the wolves. That's why I think it's a solidarity issue. We should be all in this together, but as Biden just demonstrated, we're clearly not.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:06 PM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
Pardoning Hunter to spare him the wrath of Republicans just opens up a can of worms about who's worthy/privileged enough to earn a seat on the lifeboat and who gets to be thrown to the wolves. That's why I think it's a solidarity issue. We should be all in this together, but as Biden just demonstrated, we're clearly not.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:06 PM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
Again, there are upwards of 158,000 inmates in federal prisons. He could, if he wanted, pardon all of them. And he should! Or, if you want to quibble, he should at least pardon the 72% (nearly 114,000) who are incarcerated for nonviolent offenses.
He could do that more easily than basically any other president in history, because he's fucking 82 years old and never going to hold another job or run for office again. He's on the downslope to death and there are literally no consequences he has to care about.
But he fucking won't. He'll pardon, at most, a handful of prisoners to make himself look all noble and high-minded.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:46 PM on December 3, 2024 [14 favorites]
He could do that more easily than basically any other president in history, because he's fucking 82 years old and never going to hold another job or run for office again. He's on the downslope to death and there are literally no consequences he has to care about.
But he fucking won't. He'll pardon, at most, a handful of prisoners to make himself look all noble and high-minded.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:46 PM on December 3, 2024 [14 favorites]
If you're asking "Does pardoning Hunter Biden or not pardoning Hunter Biden affect the Dems' chance of electing a new president in 2028?" the answer, to my eyes, is "Neither affects it at all."
No, I was taking your implication to be that Dems won’t have the chance to elect a new president in 2028 due to Trump seizing authoritarian control and “abandoning all principles,” given your other comments predicting that directly, in which case I was asking how much does Biden’s pardon actually protect Hunter if they want to go after him?
posted by atoxyl at 3:19 PM on December 3, 2024
No, I was taking your implication to be that Dems won’t have the chance to elect a new president in 2028 due to Trump seizing authoritarian control and “abandoning all principles,” given your other comments predicting that directly, in which case I was asking how much does Biden’s pardon actually protect Hunter if they want to go after him?
posted by atoxyl at 3:19 PM on December 3, 2024
if you're cool with that guy possibly being locked up in a supermax over a GOP grudge, then yes, you could leave him twisting in the wind.
There's no way he'd end up in a supermax. Even in our insane political climate, the one constant is that rich white people don't go to supermax for tax crimes. And I for one, am entirely cool with locking up white collar criminals who historically almost never pay for their crimes, regardless of whether it happens over a GOP grudge.
This is precisely the type of accountability we're always looking for and so often denied. I don't really have heartburn over the fact that, were it not because of the politics, he might have instead skated.
It's not like this is some poor guy on the street that the cops randomly pinned a charge on. He willfully and intentionally didn't pay a large amount of taxes and lied to the government about it. It's not the worst thing someone's ever done, but it's a crime nonetheless.
(I do think that the gun law is bullshit and I think I'm fine with that pardon)
posted by Room 101 at 3:24 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
There's no way he'd end up in a supermax. Even in our insane political climate, the one constant is that rich white people don't go to supermax for tax crimes. And I for one, am entirely cool with locking up white collar criminals who historically almost never pay for their crimes, regardless of whether it happens over a GOP grudge.
This is precisely the type of accountability we're always looking for and so often denied. I don't really have heartburn over the fact that, were it not because of the politics, he might have instead skated.
It's not like this is some poor guy on the street that the cops randomly pinned a charge on. He willfully and intentionally didn't pay a large amount of taxes and lied to the government about it. It's not the worst thing someone's ever done, but it's a crime nonetheless.
(I do think that the gun law is bullshit and I think I'm fine with that pardon)
posted by Room 101 at 3:24 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
There's no way he'd end up in a supermax
there's no way trump would get reinstalled but here we are
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:15 PM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
there's no way trump would get reinstalled but here we are
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:15 PM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
Reinstalled?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:17 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:17 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
Once again, I really think that people who believe Hunter Biden would not literally be tortured in prison do not get it. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump personally did it. I really don't think people get what happened a month ago.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:30 PM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:30 PM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
I really don't think people get what happened a month ago.
Yes, it just isn't sinking in, is it. The level of delusion and denial is fucking terrifying.
Look, I get it. Who the fuck wants to face up to this stuff and deal with it? I sure as hell don't. But it is no more a choice than the world of September 1939 having to face the truth about Hitler and the Nazis. It simply cannot be ignored or wished away. It will be right in our faces soon whether you want it or not. The Trumpists are much better prepared this time, and will not be wasting any time or civility in imposing their agenda. It is going to be shock tactics, writ large. Formalities like awaiting Senate approval for nominees are not going to stop them or even slow them down much.
As I said on another thread, on 20 Jan 2025 all humanity enters a fundamentally different and much more unstable and dangerous world, and it may well stay that way for the rest of our lives, and there is no benefit in pretending otherwise.
Anybody who is not preparing for that as best they can in the interim has either not understood and accepted the reality of what is coming, or is already pre-emptively submitting to it.
posted by Pouteria at 5:10 PM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
Yes, it just isn't sinking in, is it. The level of delusion and denial is fucking terrifying.
Look, I get it. Who the fuck wants to face up to this stuff and deal with it? I sure as hell don't. But it is no more a choice than the world of September 1939 having to face the truth about Hitler and the Nazis. It simply cannot be ignored or wished away. It will be right in our faces soon whether you want it or not. The Trumpists are much better prepared this time, and will not be wasting any time or civility in imposing their agenda. It is going to be shock tactics, writ large. Formalities like awaiting Senate approval for nominees are not going to stop them or even slow them down much.
As I said on another thread, on 20 Jan 2025 all humanity enters a fundamentally different and much more unstable and dangerous world, and it may well stay that way for the rest of our lives, and there is no benefit in pretending otherwise.
Anybody who is not preparing for that as best they can in the interim has either not understood and accepted the reality of what is coming, or is already pre-emptively submitting to it.
posted by Pouteria at 5:10 PM on December 3, 2024 [5 favorites]
Reinstalled?
Like malware on my mom's laptop; no matter how many times I remove it, it keeps coming back.
posted by mittens at 5:34 PM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
Like malware on my mom's laptop; no matter how many times I remove it, it keeps coming back.
posted by mittens at 5:34 PM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
Trump pardoned Ivanka’s father in law for among other things hiring a prostitute to wreck his (Charles Kushner) sister’s marriage in retaliation for said brother in law testifying against him. George Bush pardoned his son Neil for his part in the S&L scandal in the 1990s; interestingly enough, Neil’s misbehavior involved strange women showing up at his hotels in Asia wanting to have sex with him. And Gerald Ford famously said during his confirmation hearings for vice-president that if he pardoned Nixon, “the American people wouldn’t stand for it”. Of course, later, he said that he never said he wouldn’t pardon Nixon, just that the American people wouldn’t stand for it. And they didn’t. I wouldn’t have thought the 1970s were the high point of ethics in American politics (including the electorate), but there you are.
posted by TedW at 6:10 PM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by TedW at 6:10 PM on December 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
Delusion? Denial? Hunter Biden wasn’t going to get tortured in a death camp, because the fascists don’t actually give a fuck about Hunter Biden. Their primary goal will be jailing as many migrants as they can build capacity for and making money off of it.
There’s no good reason to worry over Hunter Biden’s hypothetical treatment in the justice system. He has absolutely nothing to do with the fascist project other than being a shibboleth.
This would be entirely different if his crimes were made up or if he was being jailed as a dissident. He isn’t. He’s just another goddamned nepotistic, selfish prick.
posted by Room 101 at 6:13 PM on December 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
There’s no good reason to worry over Hunter Biden’s hypothetical treatment in the justice system. He has absolutely nothing to do with the fascist project other than being a shibboleth.
This would be entirely different if his crimes were made up or if he was being jailed as a dissident. He isn’t. He’s just another goddamned nepotistic, selfish prick.
posted by Room 101 at 6:13 PM on December 3, 2024 [7 favorites]
I wouldn't be surprised if Trump personally did it
It’s threads like these that make me start to understand the appeal of prediction markets.
posted by atoxyl at 6:30 PM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
It’s threads like these that make me start to understand the appeal of prediction markets.
posted by atoxyl at 6:30 PM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
I wouldn’t have thought the 1970s were the high point of ethics in American politics (including the electorate), but there you are.
But they were.
The Camp David Accords, signed by President Jimmy Carter, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in September 1978, established a framework for a historic peace treaty concluded between Israel and Egypt in March 1979.
posted by y2karl at 6:35 PM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
But they were.
The Camp David Accords, signed by President Jimmy Carter, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in September 1978, established a framework for a historic peace treaty concluded between Israel and Egypt in March 1979.
posted by y2karl at 6:35 PM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
Until
posted by y2karl at 6:38 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
On August 3, 1980, presidential candidate Ronald Reagan addressed a large crowd at the Neshoba County Fair as he campaigned in his bid for the presidency.Not that any message was implied by the choice of location.
The fairgrounds are mere miles away from the site where three civil rights workers — one a student participating in Mississippi Freedom Summer and the other two CORE members — were murdered and buried in shallow graves by members of the Ku Klux Klan in 1964.
posted by y2karl at 6:38 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
If Trump is going to personally torture Hunter, why would any of us believe this pardon would prevent that? It's a very fine-grained utter tyranny that will begin in January, apparently.
posted by sagc at 6:58 PM on December 3, 2024 [9 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:58 PM on December 3, 2024 [9 favorites]
Delusion? Denial? Hunter Biden wasn’t going to get tortured in a death camp, because the fascists don’t actually give a fuck about Hunter Biden. Their primary goal will be jailing as many migrants as they can build capacity for and making money off of it.
It's comforting to imagine that what these people want is money; money is a motivation we understand. But they already have all the money. Do you really think someone like Elon Musk cares about his money? They want power. Look, liberals have been wrong about everything so far, but I'm trying to tell you that these people are way more fucked up than you imagine. Like they say, the cruelty is the point. They are just not like you and me. Revisit this in a year and see what you think by then.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:28 PM on December 3, 2024 [8 favorites]
It's comforting to imagine that what these people want is money; money is a motivation we understand. But they already have all the money. Do you really think someone like Elon Musk cares about his money? They want power. Look, liberals have been wrong about everything so far, but I'm trying to tell you that these people are way more fucked up than you imagine. Like they say, the cruelty is the point. They are just not like you and me. Revisit this in a year and see what you think by then.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:28 PM on December 3, 2024 [8 favorites]
Maybe Biden's quietly putting all his ducks in a row to do something big that will really frustrate Trump.
Maybe! But every other time I've thought any dem was into some 12-dimentional chess shit I come away disappointed.
Biden was the 2nd worst choice back in 2020 just like Harris was the 2nd worst choice this November.
"Not exactly wrong but definitely far short of the most right" is about the best we can hope for. If we're really lucky we might get something like "the right thing" every once in a while. Anything better than that requires major changes to the system before it'll produce different results.
-=bangs rank-choice voting drum=-
posted by VTX at 8:02 PM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
Maybe! But every other time I've thought any dem was into some 12-dimentional chess shit I come away disappointed.
Biden was the 2nd worst choice back in 2020 just like Harris was the 2nd worst choice this November.
"Not exactly wrong but definitely far short of the most right" is about the best we can hope for. If we're really lucky we might get something like "the right thing" every once in a while. Anything better than that requires major changes to the system before it'll produce different results.
-=bangs rank-choice voting drum=-
posted by VTX at 8:02 PM on December 3, 2024 [4 favorites]
a can of worms about who's worthy/privileged enough to earn a seat on the lifeboat and who gets to be thrown to the wolves
Sharks, surely.
And is that lifeboat electric? So I have a choice of electrocution or a shark. You know what I’m going to take? Electrocution. I will take electrocution every single time. Do we agree? Yeah, I will take electrocution.
But these people are crazy. They also want to go with energy-efficient jet fuel so that we don’t have any problems.
posted by flabdablet at 8:31 PM on December 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
Sharks, surely.
And is that lifeboat electric? So I have a choice of electrocution or a shark. You know what I’m going to take? Electrocution. I will take electrocution every single time. Do we agree? Yeah, I will take electrocution.
But these people are crazy. They also want to go with energy-efficient jet fuel so that we don’t have any problems.
posted by flabdablet at 8:31 PM on December 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
If Trump is going to personally torture Hunter, why would any of us believe this pardon would prevent that?
The pardon lets him leave the country. Without it he would face the hardest core of the Trump party, which is a white prison gang led by nazis.
posted by Brian B. at 8:34 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
The pardon lets him leave the country. Without it he would face the hardest core of the Trump party, which is a white prison gang led by nazis.
posted by Brian B. at 8:34 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
All those sons that suffered under Biden's laws. Why is his son too good for prison? Biden owes a son.
posted by yonega at 9:05 PM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by yonega at 9:05 PM on December 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
The reaction to this is scary. The fact that some of you will leave your own son to die... like I don't want to know you IRL if you are like that.
posted by ichomp at 9:53 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by ichomp at 9:53 PM on December 3, 2024 [2 favorites]
I think when you’re the leader of a group, you’re supposed to be willing to put aside selfish ends for the good of the group. Here, if we want a chance of restoring our democracy after Trump grabs it by the nethers, we need someone who’s committed to principles like the rule of law trumping (har) the rule of man. This is a sign, a small sign but a sign at a difficult hour, that the Democrats are not going to provide that someone. Biden was never going to be that someone. Biden loves his family too much — a private virtue and a public vice.
I’m not sure that strong proclamations that we know what’s coming are the best way to spend our energy. I’ve already been certain about two things in the past month and was wrong about both. I was certain we wouldn’t have a resolved election by the time I woke up on Wednesday, and we did. Then I was certain that Trump’s nominees would get no serious and effective opposition from anybody, but there went Gaetz, poof. Yes, treating Project 2025 like their punch list makes sense, and I’m not trying to minimize the import of having elected someone who basically wants to rape the country. That’s not the same thing as assuming it will all happen the way they envision. For my part I wonder what happens if we get hit with another pandemic. I don’t know how easy it would be for the current H5N1 outbreak in cows to sprout a gene that makes it more virulent in humans or more transmissible between people, but it’s an obvious risk we’re not mitigating enough, it’s not something I see Trump addressing either proactively or effectively in the moment, and it could make a mess of stuff. Is that good for him solidifying a dictator role? Maybe? So much of what happened under him the last time was chaotic and that’s part of the trauma memory of those years. I think in the face of chaos we like to assert certainty of even a bad outcome so that we feel some control. I do this all the time. But we need humility too.
posted by eirias at 3:52 AM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
I’m not sure that strong proclamations that we know what’s coming are the best way to spend our energy. I’ve already been certain about two things in the past month and was wrong about both. I was certain we wouldn’t have a resolved election by the time I woke up on Wednesday, and we did. Then I was certain that Trump’s nominees would get no serious and effective opposition from anybody, but there went Gaetz, poof. Yes, treating Project 2025 like their punch list makes sense, and I’m not trying to minimize the import of having elected someone who basically wants to rape the country. That’s not the same thing as assuming it will all happen the way they envision. For my part I wonder what happens if we get hit with another pandemic. I don’t know how easy it would be for the current H5N1 outbreak in cows to sprout a gene that makes it more virulent in humans or more transmissible between people, but it’s an obvious risk we’re not mitigating enough, it’s not something I see Trump addressing either proactively or effectively in the moment, and it could make a mess of stuff. Is that good for him solidifying a dictator role? Maybe? So much of what happened under him the last time was chaotic and that’s part of the trauma memory of those years. I think in the face of chaos we like to assert certainty of even a bad outcome so that we feel some control. I do this all the time. But we need humility too.
posted by eirias at 3:52 AM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
The reaction to this is scary. The fact that some of you will leave your own son to die... like I don't want to know you IRL if you are like that.
lol what, who is saying that.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:59 AM on December 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
lol what, who is saying that.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:59 AM on December 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
People aren't saying that. They're saying that issuing a morally questionable pardon will cause the Dems to lose votes in 2028 to [checks notes] a party that routinely gives stacks and stacks of morally reprehensible pardons including (to pick one) a Navy SEAL in prison for war crimes whose squadmates disabled his gun because he was killing civilians for laughs.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:11 AM on December 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:11 AM on December 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
Oh do we have to walk through the multiple conflicting and overlapping reasons that people 1) chose to vote and 2) chose who they vote for?
The dems biggest problem is that they have a perception of at least ostensibly saying the right things but then almost never doing them, and coming up with excuses as to why they really want to do the right thing but can't. Hypocrisy is a huge problem for dems because they pretend to be better. Its a fact of life that people care about that. Wishing it away won't help.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:16 AM on December 4, 2024 [7 favorites]
The dems biggest problem is that they have a perception of at least ostensibly saying the right things but then almost never doing them, and coming up with excuses as to why they really want to do the right thing but can't. Hypocrisy is a huge problem for dems because they pretend to be better. Its a fact of life that people care about that. Wishing it away won't help.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:16 AM on December 4, 2024 [7 favorites]
Sarcasm aside, I think if a preponderance of people were going to vote for moral reasons, we'd have had an entirely different election.
And beyond that, after years of telling people that democracy was on the ballot, the saying that if we allowed murky campaign finance fuckery like Citizen United we would be lost, if we didn't protect the balance of the Supreme Court we would be lost, if we didn't protect our elections from outside interference we would be lost, if we didn't enforce ethical norms of presidents in power we would be lost, if we didn't eliminate the filibuster we would be lost, if we didn't punish chief executives who broke the law we would be lost, if we let the right elect a fascist we would be lost, if we didn't enforce consequences on people who attempted a coup we would be lost and if we re-elected the fascist after he had developed a more comprehensive plan for permanently entrenching his fuckery we would be lost...
Well, after failing to do any of that, many of us are of the opinion that we are lost now. And that Biden shouldn't leave his son twisting in the wind because some of us aren't through the denial stage yet.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:29 AM on December 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
And beyond that, after years of telling people that democracy was on the ballot, the saying that if we allowed murky campaign finance fuckery like Citizen United we would be lost, if we didn't protect the balance of the Supreme Court we would be lost, if we didn't protect our elections from outside interference we would be lost, if we didn't enforce ethical norms of presidents in power we would be lost, if we didn't eliminate the filibuster we would be lost, if we didn't punish chief executives who broke the law we would be lost, if we let the right elect a fascist we would be lost, if we didn't enforce consequences on people who attempted a coup we would be lost and if we re-elected the fascist after he had developed a more comprehensive plan for permanently entrenching his fuckery we would be lost...
Well, after failing to do any of that, many of us are of the opinion that we are lost now. And that Biden shouldn't leave his son twisting in the wind because some of us aren't through the denial stage yet.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:29 AM on December 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
I think if a preponderance of people were going to vote for moral reasons, we'd have had an entirely different election.
Which again is entirely irrelevant?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:32 AM on December 4, 2024
Which again is entirely irrelevant?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:32 AM on December 4, 2024
I'll probably dip on out of here now, because I honestly think the folks I am arguing with are good people coming from a good place.
But I believe to my very bones that it--and by "it" I mean "functional Democracy in the United states of America"--is ending now. We fucked up too many times, they have too organized a plan this time, and we're not going to #resist and pink hat our way out of this shit this time.
We're at a fundamental impasse here where you think you're still fighting the fire and I think it's time to grab the photo albums and the dog before the place collapses. I don't think we're gonna agree.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:34 AM on December 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
But I believe to my very bones that it--and by "it" I mean "functional Democracy in the United states of America"--is ending now. We fucked up too many times, they have too organized a plan this time, and we're not going to #resist and pink hat our way out of this shit this time.
We're at a fundamental impasse here where you think you're still fighting the fire and I think it's time to grab the photo albums and the dog before the place collapses. I don't think we're gonna agree.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:34 AM on December 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
I think that the entire thing is ending so why bother doing everything possible to gain political power to oppose the cause of the thing ending is a inherently contradictory position.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:36 AM on December 4, 2024
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:36 AM on December 4, 2024
I am out of words, out of metaphors here.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:38 AM on December 4, 2024
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:38 AM on December 4, 2024
It takes a Rorschach-like level of commitment to one's principles in the face of all evidence that they are both unshared and meaningless to let your son suffer in order to prove an abstract political point. I don't doubt that some people here are capable of this, but I strongly suspect that fewer of us are capable of it than we seem to believe.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:53 AM on December 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:53 AM on December 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
The reaction to this is scary. The fact that some of you will leave your own son to die... like I don't want to know you IRL if you are like that.
No need to leave your son to die to be ethical. Commutations of all sentences to prison for all!
posted by corb at 7:02 AM on December 4, 2024 [7 favorites]
No need to leave your son to die to be ethical. Commutations of all sentences to prison for all!
posted by corb at 7:02 AM on December 4, 2024 [7 favorites]
Of course, said commutations will be means-tested to something like "anyone who may have committed a crime in Westview, New Jersey in October and November 2023."
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:11 AM on December 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:11 AM on December 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
You guys forgive your leaders a lot.
posted by cendawanita at 7:16 AM on December 4, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:16 AM on December 4, 2024 [10 favorites]
I'd never heard about Eddie Gallagher before DirtyOldTown, assuming that's who you meant, thanks. lol
I've no idea what'll happen, but.. If the US contianues elections then they ecoomy should steadily worsen fromfactors like ecology, enviroment, and resources, especially if the shale tech cannot be pushed further. You'd expect this causes more power changes, unteil te populations chooses some real strongman figure who does shut down elections, not necessarily Trump.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:22 AM on December 4, 2024
I've no idea what'll happen, but.. If the US contianues elections then they ecoomy should steadily worsen fromfactors like ecology, enviroment, and resources, especially if the shale tech cannot be pushed further. You'd expect this causes more power changes, unteil te populations chooses some real strongman figure who does shut down elections, not necessarily Trump.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:22 AM on December 4, 2024
But it is no more a choice than the world of September 1939 having to face the truth about Hitler and the Nazis.
If it makes anyone feel better it seems in many ways things are more like 1933 right now. Many people were also having a hard time grappling with it too (read Haffner's Defying Hitler, written in 1939—and unpublished till 2000—about events leading up to and including 1933). Now whether anything could have been done to prevent 1933 from turning into 1939 I leave to academics.
posted by mazola at 8:53 AM on December 4, 2024 [8 favorites]
If it makes anyone feel better it seems in many ways things are more like 1933 right now. Many people were also having a hard time grappling with it too (read Haffner's Defying Hitler, written in 1939—and unpublished till 2000—about events leading up to and including 1933). Now whether anything could have been done to prevent 1933 from turning into 1939 I leave to academics.
posted by mazola at 8:53 AM on December 4, 2024 [8 favorites]
You guys forgive your leaders a lot.
Seems to me like most people here/"you guys" care a lot less about forgiveness and more about putting this into perspective, given what truly terrible things are coming around the corner.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:58 AM on December 4, 2024 [5 favorites]
Seems to me like most people here/"you guys" care a lot less about forgiveness and more about putting this into perspective, given what truly terrible things are coming around the corner.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:58 AM on December 4, 2024 [5 favorites]
Many of which will happen to the hundreds of thousands of incarcerated people who have done far less awful things but are not the President's deadbeat asshole of a son!
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:02 AM on December 4, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:02 AM on December 4, 2024 [7 favorites]
I swear, it feels like liberals are gonna hope this is his only pardon for no other reason that it will "own the left".
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:05 AM on December 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:05 AM on December 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
I swear, it feels like liberals are gonna hope this is his only pardon for no other reason that it will "own the left".
What the hell are you basing that on?
posted by grubi at 11:07 AM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
What the hell are you basing that on?
posted by grubi at 11:07 AM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
The many angry comments aimed at people who are rightfully upset that this is the first and only pardon we know of, and yell about dumb shit like emotional manipulation every time it's pointed out.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:12 AM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:12 AM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
I swear, it feels like liberals are gonna hope this is his only pardon for no other reason that it will "own the left".
James Clyburn just said that Biden should pardon Trump before leaving office, so maybe there will only be two!
Clyburn is such an incredible dickweasel and sorry excuse for a Democrat. I still remember his awful, awful blasé response to Dobbs being leaked.
posted by Gadarene at 11:29 AM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
James Clyburn just said that Biden should pardon Trump before leaving office, so maybe there will only be two!
Clyburn is such an incredible dickweasel and sorry excuse for a Democrat. I still remember his awful, awful blasé response to Dobbs being leaked.
posted by Gadarene at 11:29 AM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
Congressman Uncle Ruckus caring more about one rich and powerful white friend than hundreds of thousands of Black men in jail for far less is. . .well, let's just say it's 100% on brand.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:50 AM on December 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:50 AM on December 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
The many angry comments aimed at people who are rightfully upset that this is the first and only pardon we know of, and yell about dumb shit like emotional manipulation every time it's pointed out.
I can't find any such comments. I've been reading the entire thread and I see nothing where someone said anything about emotional manipulation... aside from your comment.
posted by grubi at 12:37 PM on December 4, 2024
I can't find any such comments. I've been reading the entire thread and I see nothing where someone said anything about emotional manipulation... aside from your comment.
posted by grubi at 12:37 PM on December 4, 2024
Not going to be manipulated into feeling outrage over this, for reasons already mentioned. There will be real, actual atrocities coming, and I feel like I need to save my energy for those. Best of luck to all.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:45 PM on December 2 [21 favorites +] [⚑]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:39 PM on December 4, 2024
So the "many angry comments" is actually just one. And one that isn't particularly angry. Forgive me if I roll my eyes.
posted by grubi at 12:43 PM on December 4, 2024
posted by grubi at 12:43 PM on December 4, 2024
There were multiple comments along the lines that the type of people who think this is bad helped elect Trump.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:49 PM on December 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:49 PM on December 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
sure glad no one here spent several paragraphs being mad and hating on their own allies while writing something like this.
In what way are you an ally when you and yours helped swing the undecideds towards Trump, or away from voting in general?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:03 AM on December 2 [5 favorites +] [⚑]
Yes, and I can tolerate it because I didn’t stand blindly by while you helped elect a racist rapist to be POTUS while basically being immune to prosecution for any reason. I didn’t stand by while a parade of clown-shoes billionaires stuffs their noses up his backside and gets laws canceled and rights destroyed because they inconveniently interrupt profit-taking.
If you voted for Trump or, at a minimum, didn’t vote against him, you shouldn’t be allowed to complain about anything he does for the next four years (if we’re lucky, it will be only four years). Even if he is unable to serve, the person standing by to replace him is just as evil, and arguably, sane, so he won’t have the cognitive issues.
By comparison, pardoning Hunter means nothing. Congress is going to pillory him, anyway.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:23 PM on December 2 [11 favorites +] [⚑]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:09 PM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
Well, that's two.
posted by grubi at 1:57 PM on December 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by grubi at 1:57 PM on December 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
Welp I found two after just opening my eyes for a second, what was the magic number you were thinking of, 3?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:17 PM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:17 PM on December 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
It's a bummer that manipulation has become bullying. Not going to allow myself to be bullied, though. Others can do as they please.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:40 PM on December 4, 2024
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:40 PM on December 4, 2024
Is this the circular firing squad I've heard so much about?
posted by Lyme Drop at 7:51 PM on December 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyme Drop at 7:51 PM on December 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
Biden White House Is Discussing Preemptive Pardons for Those in Trump’s Crosshairs
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:06 AM on December 5, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:06 AM on December 5, 2024 [1 favorite]
(insert the Donald Glover "Good" gif here)
I'm feeling Legal Eagle at the end of that video that one side has to be perfect, the other side can do whatever it wants and never get punished and "all we can do is say that it's wrong" (not that that does any good).
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:26 PM on December 5, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm feeling Legal Eagle at the end of that video that one side has to be perfect, the other side can do whatever it wants and never get punished and "all we can do is say that it's wrong" (not that that does any good).
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:26 PM on December 5, 2024 [2 favorites]
Is this the circular firing squad I've heard so much about?
I'm not fired. You're fired.
posted by flabdablet at 5:43 PM on December 5, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm not fired. You're fired.
posted by flabdablet at 5:43 PM on December 5, 2024 [2 favorites]
On the subject of "well let's see who else gets a pardon":
Biden commutes sentence for Kids-for-Cash judge
I have no further context except the Philadelphians I got this from aren't too impressed, to put it lightly.
Has there been a spate of pardons that's not been covered? Surely can't just be these two.
posted by cendawanita at 12:57 AM on December 13, 2024 [2 favorites]
Biden commutes sentence for Kids-for-Cash judge
I have no further context except the Philadelphians I got this from aren't too impressed, to put it lightly.
Has there been a spate of pardons that's not been covered? Surely can't just be these two.
posted by cendawanita at 12:57 AM on December 13, 2024 [2 favorites]
The full list is up here (up to Dec 12): Justice.gov > Office of the Pardon Attorney > Pardons Granted By President Joseph Biden (2021-Present).
posted by kmt at 2:54 AM on December 13, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by kmt at 2:54 AM on December 13, 2024 [3 favorites]
But also, just yesterday President Biden on Thursday announced he is commuting the prison sentences for nearly 1,500 people and pardoning 39 others in what the White House said was the largest act of clemency in a single day in modern presidential history.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:02 AM on December 13, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:02 AM on December 13, 2024 [3 favorites]
And this was really big news at the time that people seem to have completely forgotten about: President Joe Biden pardoned thousands of people who were convicted of use and simple possession of marijuana on federal lands and in the District of Columbia
posted by hydropsyche at 3:04 AM on December 13, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:04 AM on December 13, 2024 [4 favorites]
Commutation is such a gross copout though. Those folks are going to get out of prison but they're still going to be at a serious disadvantage. Landlords won't rent to them, jobs won't hire them, and in at least 13 states they are either temporarily or permanently unable to vote. All the myriad everyday abuses that the machinery of the US perpetrates on anyone with a felony conviction are still going to be visited on them, because ol' Crime Bill Biden can't bring himself to actually pardon the absolutely most nonviolent of the nonviolent offenders (they are all people who were considered safe enough to put on fucking house arrest during COVID); those people still have to wear the scarlet F forever, so Biden doesn't look soft. Meanwhile, if you're a judge who took bribes to throw kids in cages, you get a clean slate, because fundamentally Biden agrees with you on the subject of throwing people in cages.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:54 AM on December 13, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:54 AM on December 13, 2024 [2 favorites]
Just incredibly unserious to be picky about who a lame duck president is pardoning or not pardoning at this point.
Be well, people.
posted by ichomp at 2:33 PM on December 15, 2024
Be well, people.
posted by ichomp at 2:33 PM on December 15, 2024
Just incredibly unserious to be picky about who a lame duck president is pardoning or not pardoning at this point.I disagree. The pardon power is one of those powers that a lame duck president can use unilaterally and nearly without restriction. But it's also one that should be used judiciously.
Somehow President Biden has managed to piss me off not only in to whom he is granting clemency but also in to whom he is not granting clemency. Granted - he is not going to lose one minute of sleep over my disappointment with his failure to properly plan for and execute his actions in this, as in so many other things he had the power to do, but I think it's totally fair to call out a president whose expressed rationale for exercising that power on behalf of his own child was "the justice system cannot be relied upon to produce a fair outcome" and ask how many other cases he has considered and how they were selected.
A presidency that was taking this part of the job seriously would, I hope, not have granted a commutation to a judge who personally benefited by sending children to a for-profit prison facility, even if that person was already released to home confinement.
I expect the next president's pardons to be entirely corrupt and self-serving but it doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see something better than half-assed performance from this one. But then I'm pretty steamed in general by what I consider to have been a truly inexcusable failure of contingency planning for the loss of an election which was never much outside the margin of error.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:11 PM on December 15 [2 favorites]
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posted by Thorzdad at 5:03 AM on December 2, 2024 [51 favorites]