Where to go? Not at Starbucks, unless you buy something
January 14, 2025 8:22 AM   Subscribe

CNN Business: Starbucks ends its 'open-door' policies. A new Coffeehouse Code of Conduct was announced and allegedly posted on their doors yesterday, reversing the 2018 decision to let anybody hang out there.

WaPo (gift link): The change will apply to all company-owned stores in North America and will take effect on January 27.
posted by Rash (88 comments total) 8 users marked this as a favorite
 
And in other recent news, Starbucks has begun allowing customers nationwide to use their own cups and mugs for drive-thru and mobile orders, causing their workers no end of grief.
posted by Rash at 8:25 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]


The Starbucks that is centrally located in our downtown (there is another closer to Queen's campus that has seen no change until this, I guess) removed all its seating sometime last year. Corporate probably said it was because there were more mobile orders, but I suspect it has to do with the massive increase in unhoused folks in our city. (COVID has been kind to no one but especially the most vulnerable.)

I will note that of the many other coffee shops downtown have not done this. There is plenty of seating for customers. Of course, you will have to compete with the students and their laptops!
posted by Kitteh at 8:32 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]


I've noticed the removal of furniture trend in some areas in Toronto and Scarborough too Kitteh. My local Starbucks, which is not in an area where there are a lot of unhoused people just due to its very pedestrian-unfriendly location, removed anything comfortable and kept a couple of desultory tables. I feel like there's a move away from encouraging people to stay.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:43 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]


I have to wonder who Corporate expects to enforce these new policies -- my money's on their already understaffed/undersupported barristas.

Also, it's widely acknowledged in my city that the only "safety" concerns driving the closure of several downtown stores here was the safety of stockholders from the threat of a unionized workforce.
posted by Pedantzilla at 8:44 AM on January 14 [27 favorites]


I have to wonder who Corporate expects to enforce these new policies -- my money's on their already understaffed/undersupported barristas.

Yuuuuuup. I'm out of the game nearly twenty years now but man oh man, being yelled at by strangers because they had to ask for the bathroom key was never fun. Like, my man, I did not make that policy. I do not like enforcing that policy but I have to because if I don't, I get a nice talk with management about it.
posted by Kitteh at 8:57 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]


In Seattle I've seen more of them open or reopen as pickup-only or drive-thru locations. If I had to guess, they can reduce their rent costs with smaller footprints.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:06 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]


At the risk of sounding sanctimonious, I stopped frequenting Starbucks (and McDonald's) when they openly supported genocide. Apparently a lot of people did, to the point where it affected their bottom line. If you didn't already, this may be another good reason to just stop giving them your money.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:09 AM on January 14 [20 favorites]


There are two Starbucks locations where I live, and neither of them has any seating.
posted by briank at 9:12 AM on January 14


It's not clear to me that Starbucks has actually "openly supported genocide." I'm not saying they're not bad actors, but that's a pretty specific claim and I haven't seen it.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:16 AM on January 14 [10 favorites]


The claim that a lot of people stopped frequenting Starbucks because of it, and that this caused subsequent effects on their bottom line, rather than inflation, overly-long menus, competition from smaller rivals, the safety/customer experience issues that seem to have prompted these new rules, etc., etc., is also... pretty specific.
posted by box at 9:23 AM on January 14 [12 favorites]


the only two sharkbutts i see with any regularity don't have seating, and they're also ones where drivers with no fucking taste or appreciation for good coffee will jump their vehicles on the curb in a no parking zone during rush-hour to pick up their swill. no love, me
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:32 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]


When you rely on the free market to address your society's problems, you end up with shit and piss on the sidewalk.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:34 AM on January 14 [24 favorites]


Sure, but the second claim (inflation, menus, competition, etc.) is a bit more believable because it's so common in the US. The other one, genocide, needs a bit more justification and explanation.

Is it:

1. Go to it, people.

2. We see nothing, we hear nothing (Sgt. Schultz)

3. Yeah, it's complicated and we're not happy with it, but we don't have much choice right now.

4. You … might be, erm, how to put this … misinformed?

5. Other
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 9:34 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]


There seems to be pretty decent and easily findable press coverage of Starbucks losing money specifically because of the Gaza-related boycott:

Starbucks continues to feel weight of global boycott over Gaza war

Starbucks Stock Plunge Cheered Amid Pro-Palestinian Boycott

How anti-Israel protests are costing companies billions of dollars
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:37 AM on January 14 [16 favorites]


Once Costco got those tasty frozen Kirkland breakfast sandwiches I lost the main impetus to darken their doorway
posted by torokunai2 at 9:39 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]


As far as I can tell, Starbucks is roughly as pro-genocide as any other American multinational, which is not great but also not obviously worth boycotting more than others. It's not on the BDS list. Whether people are significantly boycotting the company I have no idea.

(Howard Schultz is personally pro-Israel but I'm not sure what Starbucks corporate is supposed to do about that, he's not CEO anymore)
posted by BungaDunga at 9:39 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]


Who the heck wants to hang out in a coffee shop all day? Surely there are other more constructive things you can be doing. I'm a drive thru Tim Horton kind of guy.
posted by Czjewel at 9:40 AM on January 14


In Seattle I've seen more of them open or reopen as pickup-only or drive-thru locations.

One of the oldest Shipley's Donuts in Houston is at 3410 Ella Blvd. It's a small building by modern standards and its parking lot only has about five spaces. It now has a drive-thru, and there is a near-permanent line of cars overflowing out into the street all the way to the W 34th St intersection, making the four-lane street effectively into a three-lane street.

For donuts.

There are over 300 Shipley's Donuts locations in Texas.

I think about this whenever someone says corporations don't have an obligation to provide services to the public for free.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:41 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]


Who the heck wants to hang out in a coffee shop all day? Surely there are other more constructive things you can be doing

A great many people who move from location to location to see customers, but occasionally just need a place to sit down and write something up or check email or whatever.

people who work remotely but have problems with or no desire to be working in their home.

me, when I have to be somewhere but got to the other side of town and got there faster than I realized and have time to sit and work for a few

etc
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:54 AM on January 14 [34 favorites]


Howard Schultz is personally pro-Israel but I'm not sure what Starbucks corporate is supposed to do about that, he's not CEO anymore

Obviously something, unless they're cool with their brand being forever associated with his outspokenness. Sucks to be Starbucks, I guess. Perhaps this should be a lesson for former CEOs like Schultz not to be so outspoken?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:55 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]


Who the heck wants to hang out in a coffee shop all day? Surely there are other more constructive things you can be doing

I used to have 1.5 hours between dropping my kid off at school and the start of my work day (which could not end earlier than 6:30 pm for operational reasons.) my house was 25 minutes from my work; my kid’s school was 5 min past work. So I gave myself a coffee budget and wrote in a Starbucks (inside a Chapters; both closed now) that was in between (the local library didn’t open early enough.) I got most of a book drafted that way.

Tim’s was too busy and noisy with all the seniors chatting it up.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:06 AM on January 14 [16 favorites]


Who the heck wants to hang out in a coffee shop all day? Surely there are other more constructive things you can be doing

I work from home and when the walls seem like they're closing in on me I'll go work in a coffee shop so that I can be among other people. It's a lovely break, it's just noisy enough that I can take the occasional call and not disturb anyone, and I'm being constructive. Coworking spaces are too expensive for the amount of time I'd use them, and my library doesn't open until an hour and a half after I begin work.
posted by kimberussell at 10:19 AM on January 14 [22 favorites]


I was not aware that Starbucks ever tolerated loitering if they noticed it.
posted by Lemkin at 10:22 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]


At the risk of sounding sanctimonious, I stopped frequenting Starbucks (and McDonald's) when they openly supported genocide. Apparently a lot of people did, to the point where it affected their bottom line. If you didn't already, this may be another good reason to just stop giving them your money.

It took that to get you there? I stopped supporting McDonald's and all other corporate fast food chains 35 years ago when I got wise enough to realize they were poisonous to people and the planet. (not to sound sanctimonious!)
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:28 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]


Honestly I think we could all do well to assume that people do things and go places for reasons that make sense to them, even if we think it's technically unnecessary bullshit, unlike the technically unnecessary bullshit WE do, which is obviously better.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:30 AM on January 14 [69 favorites]


I'm not a huge Starbucks fan, and haven't been inside one in years, but the drive-through experience at the one closest to me is so pleasant that I'd pick up a short latte to go more often if I weren't able to make a better tasting one myself. I think it's a combination of the static-free audio fidelity on the speaker, the microphone quality on the headset worn by the barista, and generally pleasant people working there. The first time I encountered it, after an early morning appointment that threw off my usual coffee routine, it was kind of jaw-dropping. I still think about it years later, so good on them, whatever they're doing. I'll stop evangelizing.

As for removing seats, or being sticklers about people hanging out but not spending money, it's pretty shitty. The coffeehouses where I've posted up for half a day on occasion haven't kicked me out unless it was right at closing time.
posted by emelenjr at 10:30 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]


My experiences of European starbucks in the early 2000s (comfy, big chairs) and the euro Starbucks I’ve been through recently (horrid coffee and busted chairs) are worlds apart. I think part of this is the massive expansion they announced (article not great but gives some details). Realistically the market for extremely mid coffee is flooded, and Starbucks seems to understand that because they offer a huge amount of non-coffee drinks as well as self-aggrandising merch like reusable cups.

“Lines Goes Up” is obviously behind this, as obviously those at the top of Starbucks don’t want to accept they have a moribund brand. Maybe they can liaise with Lyon’s tea houses and work out what they best thing to do in their situation is.
posted by The River Ivel at 10:42 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]


I stopped going to Starbucks very shortly after I started going to Starbucks, because while their coffee may be acceptable in America or the UK, in New Zealand it is just Bad Coffee and there's absolutely no reason to pay that much for Bad Coffee when I can get objectively better coffee at any petrol station or greasy bakery that isn't beholden to Seattle ideas of what coffee should be like.

Anyway Starbucks shooting themselves in the foot is a win in my book.
posted by ngaiotonga at 10:48 AM on January 14 [7 favorites]


I was just listening to an NPR piece, and one thing that changed is that people in general understood they should buy something now and then as rent for their table, and there are getting to be more people who just sit down with a Big Gulp and take up a table.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:51 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]


as well as self-aggrandising merch

I have a colleague whose husband collects the local Starbucks mugs (they have like 'Toronto' and a design on them, insert your locale here) and has an entire wall unit just to house them along a basement wall. So yeah, definitely a thing.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:55 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]


(My local Starbucks is on strike and so obviously I do not go to there. Also I do not have a need to generally travel for my coffee or be at not-my-house, so I don't really have a dog in the fight per se. However: This news is disappointing, like all news about Starbucks of late, because it USED to be a company you could kind of get behind. For those who may not remember, they offered health insurance for part timers when almost nobody else did. They offered tuition reimbursement, as well. In places where there was not an existing coffee shop culture they served really valuable 3rd space purposes. Most of my friends worked at a Starbucks at some point to keep the lights on when our "real" jobs barely paid us enough to live and most of them have something good to say about it, unlike any of those "real" jobs. It sucks to see the company turning so very shitty.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:56 AM on January 14 [19 favorites]


"...that people in general understood they should"

More of that going away all the time. Hopefully the tide will turn while I'm still here.
posted by aleph at 11:07 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]


I don't get to Chicago super often, but it seemed that the one at the corner of Clark and Belmont took out their seats for a while, but now they're back. Don't know about the bathroom situation.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:07 AM on January 14


Who the heck wants to hang out in a coffee shop all day? Surely there are other more constructive things you can be doing.

A ton of people use Starbucks (and coffee shops in general) as their offices and/or meeting room.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:22 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]


More of that going away all the time. Hopefully the tide will turn while I'm still here.

People just don't have disposable income.
posted by Mitheral at 11:23 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]


it USED to be a company you could kind of get behind. [...] It sucks to see the company turning so very shitty

Yes, I remember that too, the decent benefits. And they were "third place" evangelists. Tbf, there are Larger Social Forces making it harder to run a third place, but the odd thing: Starbucks is acting like they can be a platform trap, right? "enshittifying" in the Doctorow sense where they think their customers can't leave? But I bet they don't own most of their real estate, and sweet coffee is not something they alone can provide.

ZIRP drove many mad.
posted by clew at 11:32 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]


Oh, gosh, from The River Ivel's mention of the Lyon tea chain:
Lyons' Corner Houses, which first appeared in 1909 and remained until 1977, were noted for their art deco style. Situated on or near the corners of Coventry Street, Strand and Tottenham Court Road, they and the Maisons Lyons at Marble Arch and in Shaftesbury Avenue were large buildings on four or five floors, the ground floor of which was a food hall with counters for delicatessen, sweets and chocolates, cakes, fruit, flowers and other products. In addition, they possessed hairdressing salons, telephone booths, theatre booking agencies and at one period a twice-a-day food delivery service. On the other floors were several restaurants, each with a different theme and all with their own musicians. For a time the Corner Houses were open 24 hours a day, and at their peak each branch employed around 400 staff.
So much employment for live musicians.
posted by clew at 11:36 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]


If you take a step back, you realize that 100% of trolley problems out there are basically "the personal is political" playing out at the epistemological level.

The phrase has been - I think deliberately, methodically - diluted to mean "one’s personal decisions have some marginal political impact", but in its original context it meant something much more important: that the problems that we experience personally are not actually "personal" problems, but instead have deep roots in politics and public policy.

Defining them as personal failings puts policy and decision-makers - conveniently - beyond the reach of accountability or change. So in trolley terms, by the time "do you pull the lever or not" is even a question, an army of road-design standards, testing, scenario training and engineered redundant failsafes have all failed, probably - because it's always this - because of cost cuts, deferred maintenance, greed, deliberate neglect or some combination of them.

The answer to "should that coffee shop be able to insist that the tables or bathrooms be only for paying customers" and "should the private sector be the main purveyor of society's third-places" is "society has failed by not building out and supporting the community centers, public libraries, shared spaces and other public facilities that make that problem irrelevant, we have failed by prioritizing low taxes and privatized spaces over the dignity of the common man and the maintenance of the common good, and we need to stop pretending we're incapable of solving problems at that level."

Sorry, I get excitable about this stuff.
posted by mhoye at 11:40 AM on January 14 [47 favorites]


large buildings on four or five floors, the ground floor of which was a food hall with counters for delicatessen, sweets and chocolates, cakes, fruit, flowers and other products. In addition, they possessed hairdressing salons, telephone booths, theatre booking agencies and at one period a twice-a-day food delivery service.


Sounds a bit like Sanborns in Mexico City (and elsewhere in Mexico). The larger ones have a department store with pharmacy and bank attached to the restaurants.
posted by msbrauer at 11:41 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]


I don't get to brag that I boycott Starbucks for any reason. I just don't shop there because I don't like their coffee. It tastes burnt and is brewed so hot it will take the skin off your tongue if you try to drink it right after ordering. Yuck. It's coffee of last resort for me.

If I have the chance to support an independent coffee shop or smaller local coffee chain, I will take it. I just can't claim moral high ground for my choice.

Anyway, morality aside, the US as a society needs free public restrooms. You can't get mad at anyone pissing in public if you don't give them any other place to take a pee.
posted by caution live frogs at 11:44 AM on January 14 [10 favorites]


A local coffee shop had a problem with people sitting in all day doing their work. They did 2 things to combat this. Made a sign that you have to buy something every 2 hours (I don't know how they enforce this though). More importantly, removed all the electrical outlets so you couldn't charge your devices. Seems to be working for them. Maybe Starbucks could do something like this.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:56 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]


As someone who went from barista up to store manager well over a decade ago, it *used* to be a great place to work (even with the prudery over visible tattoos and piercings and such).

Now they take credit card tip screens away from baristas at unionized stores. Starbucks corporate can go fuck itself.
posted by hototogisu at 12:27 PM on January 14 [11 favorites]


There's a Dunkin' Donuts in downtown Providence, RI, in one of the rougher neighborhoods that I visited recently for the first time: my daughter was running in a track meet, and this store is a block from the only indoor track for high schoolers in the whole state.

This Dunkie's has tables but no chairs; has signs telling you to stay no more than thirty minutes; and has a "bathroom is permanently out of order" sign that's belied by seeing an employee use a remote opener to let an actual customer into the men's room.

In other words, screw Dunkin', too.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:32 PM on January 14 [4 favorites]


do my Edmonton homies still go to Remedy Cafe?

"i was there when" (single location, south of High Level Bridge)
posted by ginger.beef at 12:35 PM on January 14


When in Chicago we will go to the mothership Roastery location on Michigan Ave just because it's kinda cool and a good place to get a snack and centrally strategize the day's activity. Other than that, it's local coffee shops all the time (luckily there are many good ones in my location).
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 12:44 PM on January 14


Fuck starbucks for a variety of reason, but all the people I know in the restaurant business are having a harder and harder time keeping afloat with costs. Even some local cafes are starting to enforce "you need to buy something to take a table" because it was eating into margins for dine in traffic. They're not locking the bathrooms or anything, but things that they used to be able to afford, like losing tables to people coming in to have a space to work, are becoming pain points.
posted by Ferreous at 12:47 PM on January 14 [7 favorites]


OK that mothership roastery is actually pretty great. You can legitimately get new/different things there and the baked goods are excellent.

Now they take credit card tip screens away from baristas at unionized stores. Starbucks corporate can go fuck itself.

I'll tell you, this is true and also the union Starbucks shops I've been to have been so delighted and so delightful (and their coffee: head and shoulders better than average, because they can actually give a shit) that I would guess people do tip exuberantly in cash anyway. Lord knows I did. I really hope my local wins its fight.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:48 PM on January 14 [5 favorites]


When in Chicago we will go to the mothership Roastery

You could be going to Dark Matter!
posted by crazy_yeti at 1:00 PM on January 14 [3 favorites]


I feel like there's a move away from encouraging people to stay.

There absolutely is. In the 1990s, Starbucks was all about creating a place to hang out as a (privatized) third place. But I think they realized that they may a lot more money on drive through and pick-up orders. Since then, I've seen so many stores with little or no seating.

The only reason to go to a Starbucks was for the seating and/or the accessible, relatively clean washrooms - okay, and sometimes for a peppermint mocha (but with only 2 pumps of mocha and one of peppermint).
posted by jb at 1:18 PM on January 14 [1 favorite]


Back to the bathroom issue: we should not be relying on private businesses to provide toilets. We must have public, free and accessible toilets everywhere. i have been caught out so many times and once had to beg a bank to let me pee in their staff washroom, but I'm a middle aged, white, housed person who can do that. (Having a toddler in a stroller doesn't hurt either - pumps the respectability and desperation way up).

If we don't want people urinating and defecating on the streets, we have to provide washroom access.

I know it's hard to provide clean public toilets - though I've seen some terrific ones that were self-cleaning capsules in Paris (and also one in Vancouver?). If those could be designed to be big enough for a wheelchair or stroller, that would be cool.
posted by jb at 1:24 PM on January 14 [15 favorites]


My local Starbucks moved to a stand-alone store from an attached one, supposedly because the landlord refused to fully fix the plumbing, but they also added a drive thru, which sucks.
It still has chairs and places to sit, but nothing like an older one had. The one close to the university still has tables and tons of college kids that study there.

IMO it's not that people don't have money, it's that people literally don't care and literally post how to break any and all social contracts, not that different from Trump.

From people who don't just sneak into free hotel breakfasts or use their $60 Six Flags meal pass daily, or order nothing and sit all day - they now post the exact steps online about it so a private hack becomes extremely public, and at the public volume it becomes unsustainable. The younger generation can't keep their phones shut every once in a while.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:44 PM on January 14 [1 favorite]


But I think they realized that they may a lot more money on drive through and pick-up orders.

They realized they made more money being a bank that isn't subject to banking regulations:

The Power of Starbucks: A Coffee Giant and Unregulated Bank

Starbucks' loyalty program now holds more money than some banks

How Starbucks Secretly Operates Like a Bank
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:45 PM on January 14 [3 favorites]


You could be going to Dark Matter!

I could not, though, because they do not in fact have a sit-down place in Downtown Chicago -- their Jackson location is just a pickup counter (or at least was, as of...I guess last summer? Maybe it's expanded since).
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:50 PM on January 14


It was a good thing for Starbucks to start their open-door policy after the backlash of them kicking out patrons that just happened to be Black males but I don't think it's a wise idea to let businesses decide whether to do this or not. Cities should either build out public washrooms so that people don't need to pop into a Starbucks or McDonald's in order to use their facilities or make it a part of their local bylaws that all establishments that sell food or drink, or are over a certain size, must have washrooms that are available to everyone, even if they are not purchasing anything. I'd prefer having the cities do it because then the washrooms are an obvious public good paid for by everyone instead of just having these washrooms be a kind of stealth tax on businesses.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:51 PM on January 14 [5 favorites]


Who the heck wants to hang out in a coffee shop all day? Surely there are other more constructive things you can be doing. I'm a drive thru Tim Horton kind of guy.
posted by Czjewel at 12:40 PM on January 14 [+] [⚑]


Well, me for one. Not all day, but I really enjoy meeting up with a friend at a good coffee shop with comfortable seats.

I don't drink much alcohol and I abhor noisy bars - and I love coffee, so coffee shops are my go-to third places if I wish to chat and drink something nice. My partner hates coffee, but loves tea, and also meets up with people in cafes/coffee shops all the time. It's a good place to have a meeting if you work only from home, or visit with a friend who might be just a little too far to walk to (but there is a coffee shop 1/2 way between you).

For a while, my best friend and I had a standing date for a while most Saturday mornings at a coffee shop that was 10 minutes walk from each of our houses (though we were more like 20 minutes from each other). We'd meet up for 1-2 hours to drink coffee, knit, and connect. Before we had a kid, my partner and I would hang out at a large cafe on Saturday afternoons with friends from synagogue - we had already had lunch at Shul, but the building closed right after and this place was close by. Going there meant we didn't have to schlep to anyone's house if we wanted to keep hanging out and chatting, and it took the pressure off anyone needing to host 6-8 people. I know someone else who would meet his PhD student at a local coffee shop - a Starbucks, even! - because the campus was much farther for both of them to travel, but he also didn't want her to feel uncomfortable by meeting at his house. He figured that it was a nice reason to walk up the street and get a treat he only had there (chai tea latte), and they had a public place to meet and discuss her research.

One huge factor may be what I am not saying about my lifestyle: I never use a drive through because I don't (actually can't) drive, most of my friends don't drive, and we would meet outside of our homes because it was easier to meet up some place in-between - and we live in a dense, urban area where there is possible and pleasant. If I drove and lived in somewhere that was car-centric, I don't think I would like to meet up in a coffee shop. It would be easier just to go to the other person's house.
posted by jb at 1:51 PM on January 14 [7 favorites]


I'd very much rather have customer-only seating than no seating at all.
posted by kickingtheground at 1:53 PM on January 14 [2 favorites]


(I mean yes one can go to Dark Matter in general, if one lives here and, critically, enjoys giving oneself serious heart palps. I'm talking about the situation described in the thread, where you're downtown and need a place to rest/plan your day. I don't think your average day tripper is trekking to Humboldt Park for a cup of coffee.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:56 PM on January 14


I stopped going to Starbucks very shortly after I started going to Starbucks, because while their coffee may be acceptable in America or the UK, in New Zealand it is just Bad Coffee and there's absolutely no reason to pay that much for Bad Coffee

Starbucks is pretty-mid in Toronto these days, but when it first arrived, it was better than average and really pushed the other competitors (Second Cup, Timothy's) to improve. Tim Horton's has just decided to keep serving light-roasted swill that's ... not actually that cheap, compared to McDonald's or 711, but is often extremely convenient because they are everywhere.
posted by jb at 1:57 PM on January 14


This is kind of a tangent, but I recently stopped at a new-build Starbucks in Rhode Island that in addition to having standard restrooms, there was an additional sink with soap and an electric blower *outside* the restroom entrances. This is the second time I've encountered such a setup. There's also a recently renovated Wendy's on U.S. 1 in Saugus which also has the same thing. Does anyone know if this is some new pandemic-related trend in restroom construction? Because I think it's kind of neat.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:59 PM on January 14 [4 favorites]


This news is disappointing, like all news about Starbucks of late, because it USED to be a company you could kind of get behind.

Yes, they were. I worked at Starbucks from 2013-2015. I had benefits when I was over 20 hours a week, my managers were really good about respecting my availability - and I really appreciated that the official policy was to let anyone use our washroom. One time, just about Christmas, there was a recently unhoused older man who was sleeping in one of our chairs. My manager let him know that he wasn't allowed to sleep, but that he could stay inside as long as he liked. (We eventually called social services to help him because we realized that he had dementia and had been discharged from the hospital but couldn't remember where he had lived.)

People who worked there in the 1990s and 2000s talked about how there were regular pay rises and they trained and promoted from within, though by the 2010s this practice was falling by the wayside. It didn't just hurt the employees - I think it made it a less good business.
posted by jb at 2:04 PM on January 14 [13 favorites]


The no seating is a tax dodge. Many municipalities in the US have a "Places for Eating" tax, which is often 1 or 2% tax on Gross for anywhere that serves food OR beverages and provides seating. Property taxes are also much higher on a dining room than on a drive through for the same square footage, so that conversion is also a big tax saver.
posted by zenon at 2:33 PM on January 14 [3 favorites]


It's an Ontario chain, sure, but I have to admit I love Balzac's. They do have tables and seating. Not the most comfy, mind, but it exists and I quite like their coffee. You can find one in most large-ish Ontario cities. The only coffee shop I can think of that has comfy seating is The Elm Cafe, a two minute walk from my house. It's owned by a young couple with a baby, is likely the only coffee place in central Kingston that still has couches, has rotating local art on the walls, and seems to staff the usual slew of amazing queer and arty weirdos.

I miss coffee houses having more of a Third Space vibe, but then that shows how I am!
posted by Kitteh at 2:52 PM on January 14


If you're in the South Jersey area, I enjoy Jersey Java & Tea in Haddonfield.
posted by kimberussell at 3:00 PM on January 14


uh, I meant "how old I am"
posted by Kitteh at 3:03 PM on January 14 [1 favorite]


The thing about Starbucks is that for all they're a soulless chain with over-roasted coffee, they always have three non-dairy milk choices. That makes it easy for those of us with dietary restrictions. And I think I read that they recently stopped charging more for alternative milks, which is personally convenient and feels like the right thing to do (although I admit that if cow milk prices were higher, I would not find it unfair because of the externalities of cows).

But I am pretty pissed that my local *$ removed its bathroom, because when I am out with the kid, it's nice to have a convenient bathroom.

And I hate that they sometimes seem to serve app orders before me, a human standing in line.
posted by novalis_dt at 3:46 PM on January 14 [6 favorites]


while their coffee may be acceptable in America or the UK

It isn't, at least here in the UK, and it's actually pretty rare to see anyone ordering coffee there - it's usually milk drinks (that may contain some coffee). Even Whetherspoons will do you a better Americano.
posted by Dysk at 4:38 PM on January 14


Reporting from Sydney, Starbucks coffee is real bad. As in both regular and espresso. Frankly, you need the bowel loosening milk drinks to make the coffee palatable. I speak as a former drinker of Peet's and Starbucks in the US. I also collect those location specific mugs too, so I am part of that life cruft cult.
posted by jadepearl at 5:41 PM on January 14 [2 favorites]


I stopped going to Starbucks when I realized it costs 4 times more than it should and it tastes terrible.
So, right about when it opened.
posted by signal at 6:41 PM on January 14


The Starbucks prices are much more tolerable if you’re effectively renting a spot in a perfectly decent cafe.

Starbucks is now the most inconsistent fast food chain I can think of, which defeats a lot of the purpose of fast food. You used to be able to assume that if you saw a Starbucks across the road or on the map, you were guaranteed a place to get coffee, sit, use the bathroom, and use the internet. You could confidently invite someone to meet you at a Starbucks neither of you had been to and just assume it would work out ok.

Now, urban locations may or may not have a bathroom or seating, and suburban locations may not even let you in the building at all. If there is seating, it could be one of a dozen different configurations that may or may not suit your needs, subject to change overnight. There will likely be some food, but you can’t expect the availability of any menu item or even class of menu item. And anything you haven’t tried before has an unfortunately high probability of being unpalatably dry, rubbery, or stuck to its packaging.
posted by smelendez at 7:19 PM on January 14 [4 favorites]


People in Seattle almost universally do not think Starbucks has good coffee nor think they should dictate any sort of worldwide coffee trends. I would say we’re even more horrified by their burnt-ass coffee than other places known for their coffee because we know it reflects poorly on Seattle! (Which to be fair is overrated.)

Hatred for their coffee and union-busting and all sorts of other issues aside, my wife and I end up patronizing them while traveling by car because they’re the only consistently safe place to use the restroom as a visibly queer couple. I can get by most places on my own but my wife reads masculine enough to get surprised comments at best for going into gendered restrooms, a problem that noticeably got so much worse after Trump was elected the first time that we don’t take any chances now. Starbucks is single occupancy and has never led to any bathroom policing. A tangent to the issue at hand except to say that I heartily agree that restroom access should be a publicly provided service, as should more third places. Even a lot of libraries don’t really serve as a good third place because we lack social services and expect libraries to pick up the slack.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 11:01 PM on January 14 [3 favorites]


Starbuck's coffee languishes on the shelves at the Amazon Fresh I go to in North Seattle. They're constantly having to discount it as the 'use by' dates approach. And it’s never that fresh in the first place because they use a water spray system to cool the freshly roasted coffee rather than brushing it around dry on a perforated stainless steel deck, and that degrades the flavor.
posted by jamjam at 11:04 PM on January 14


"I would say we’re even more horrified by their burnt-ass coffee than other places known for their coffee"

I ask without snark: isn't ALL coffee "burnt ass?" It being liquid ashes is why I hate coffee in the first place.

Though I do like Starbucks green coffee drinks a lot, because no burning. Also as a coffee hater, they provide for the likes of me.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:47 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]


I went (and occasionally still go) to Starbucks because for a very long time, it was one of the few coffee shops that actually had a decent selection of teas. Some of the local chains have gotten a lot better, but the closest one to my house is frequented by a couple of retired guys whose general demeanor make Beavis and Butthead look well behaved. So yeah, if I really want something and I am working from home, I am more likely to hit the Starbucks drive through. If I want to hang out for a while, then I’m driving to a different neighborhood.

I spent a lot of time in a coffee shop in graduate school for the reasons listed above - tired of studying and writing alone in my apartment. Having a third space with people and busy-ness in the background was really helpful. Cup O’ Joe is long gone from Tate Street, miss that place.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 4:37 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]


I ask without snark: isn't ALL coffee "burnt ass?" It being liquid ashes is why I hate coffee in the first place.

Absolutely not!

Coffee beans, while being roasted, can burn. Then they can additionally be abused when making the coffee.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:38 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]


it was one of the few coffee shops that actually had a decent selection of teas

I'd much rather go to Starbucks for iced tea than just about other chain around me in New Jersey. I might actually start going to Starbucks, well at least one particular Starbucks, more frequently. The first Starbucks that appeared near me has unionized, and a second one is being built a mile and quarter up the road in what looks like an attempt to bust the union at the first one or drive it out of business. I just might have to start going to the union shop more frequently than I currently do, which admittedly wouldn't be hard.
posted by mollweide at 6:16 AM on January 15


This is kind of a tangent, but I recently stopped at a new-build Starbucks in Rhode Island that in addition to having standard restrooms, there was an additional sink with soap and an electric blower *outside* the restroom entrances.

I saw this pre-covid in a Burger21, and it blew my mind. I love the idea of being able to just wash my hands before and/or especially after eating.
posted by mikelieman at 7:00 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]


...a new-build Starbucks in Rhode Island that in addition to having standard restrooms, there was an additional sink with soap and an electric blower *outside* the restroom entrances.

Can you share the location of this place? On the off chance that it's near me, I want to use my remaining gift card balance there to show them that this is a Good Thing.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:54 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]


It was the one on Route 117 in Warwick in front of the Dave's Fresh Marketplace. The location is so new the building doesn't appear on Google Streetview, but it's near the entrance to the strip mall where the blue "Out Parcel Build To Suit" sign is. I stopped there while making a pilgrimage to Rocky Point State Park because I needed a bathroom break.

The Wendy's is the one on Route 1 SB in Saugus in a building that's obviously a former Friendly's location. One of the exterior doors opens right onto the hallway with the additional sink like it was intended to be for washing hands as you entered, which is why I was wondering if it was some new post-pandemic design for franchise establishments.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:13 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]


I ask without snark: isn't ALL coffee "burnt ass?" It being liquid ashes is why I hate coffee in the first place.

As well as it being possible to objectively burn coffee beans, roasting is a spectrum. You can have lighter roasts and darker roasts, which have pretty different flavour profiles even with the same raw coffee.

You might as well argue that all toast is burnt, so why would anyone complain about being given a black slice of char that's been through the toaster twenty times? After all, the whole point of toast is that it's burned bread, right?
posted by Dysk at 8:15 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]


I guess a lot of people can't really tell - so many times I've been served "toast" that was actually just warmed-up bread, no Maillard reaction at all. Yet this is what's desired, to some, who interpret my golden brown as "burned." Same with coffee, IMO - the dark roast at Starbucks (or any espresso bar) isn't 'burned' (although if roasted just a little longer, it world be) but if your formative coffee experiences were only with lightly-roasted American canned coffee, that's what it tastes like.
posted by Rash at 9:54 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]


The change will apply to all company-owned stores in North America and will take effect on January 27.

We travel from Texas to Ohio fairly regularly and the different ways Starbucks sites handle bathroom codes, off-site workers, unhoused, and those ordering more than 3 drinks seems more based on location and manager than anything. Some baristas shout out the bathroom code the minute my husband enters with desperation on his face while others look at us like we're nuts when we ask if the bathroom has a code.

I did appreciate the manager who told the guy who showed up at 8am with 25 complex orders for his volleyball team that he got one drink, the drive-thru gets one car through, and one other customer gets their order rather than making everyone else wait the ridiculous time it would have taken for him alone.
posted by beaning at 10:18 AM on January 15


> make it a part of their local bylaws that all establishments that sell food or drink, or are over a certain size, must have washrooms that are available to everyone, even if they are not purchasing anything.

hey guess what we have in Washington State

(exceptions apply but not as many as you might think)
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:30 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]


while their coffee may be acceptable in America or the UK

Nah, America and the UK has their share of sanctimonious coffee dickholes, just like everywhere else where you assume everyone has perfect taste.

Anyway, both the huge Starbucks I frequent were remodeled in the last 6-12 months, and both have extreme amounts of both indoor and outdoor seating. However, neither has a large contingent of bring-in-multiple-egg-crates-worth-of-equipment-with-a-handtruck guys, nor do-drugs-and-then-passout-against-the-bathroom-door guys. One has only a single bathroom for customers that've yet to use because it's always occupied (hmm, maybe there are more do-drugs-and-then-passout-against-the-bathroom-door guys in the rich part of OC than I thought), but the other has 6-8 fully enclosed genderless stalls with a central handwashing station.

As an aside, I doubt either of those stores is aware someone is boycotting them, based on how absolutely apeshit busy they both are like 18 hours a day.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 6:59 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]


I don't think your average day tripper is trekking to Humboldt Park for a cup of coffee
Fair point, Hardcheese. It's been ages since I worked downtown and these days I spend most of my time in West Town so my perspective is skewed. Still, there have to be better options downtown. I used to love the Intelligentsia in the Monadnock Building (the tallest load-bearing brick building ever constructed!) but I believe that's closed now, too bad. It does seem like all of the good coffeeshops (Dark Matter, Ipsento, Gaslight, Wormhole) are far from downtown. I see that there's a Fairgrounds in the Chicago Athletic Association building (12 S Michigan), but I haven't tried it. Other Fairgrounds locations I've been to are pretty good.
posted by crazy_yeti at 8:16 AM on January 16


Starting today, there are more reasons to stay awhile (Starbucks Blue)
posted by box at 10:37 AM on January 27


I can't believe I'm defending Starbucks, but their code of conduct seems reasonable to me. Obviously we need more public bathrooms in the US but I don't think it's Starbucks' responsibility to provide them; it would be great if they did but I understand why they don't want to. And they've made some really stupid and dangerous choices about when to call the police, but I've had to call the police to have people removed from where I was working because what's the alternative? Again, it would be great if there was some other system but at the moment there isn't.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:45 PM on January 27 [1 favorite]


I used to love the Intelligentsia in the Monadnock Building (the tallest load-bearing brick building ever constructed!) but I believe that's closed now, too bad.

This is the latest reply/update ever but it is still there, and does have some seating. Intelligentsia overall never entirely recovered as a business from their brewing guru being crushed to death by his own coffee machine, and it's a real shame!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:27 PM on January 29


I hear they're removing 30% of the menu and I hope that part isn't the non-regular coffee drinks. I drink the green coffee ones, specifically.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:38 PM on January 29


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