Vietnam fines reckless drivers half the average annual salary
January 15, 2025 1:26 AM Subscribe
Vietnam fines reckless drivers half the average annual salary. Vietnam, where 11,500 people die in traffic accidents every year, has introduced severe new penalties for those who break road rules as well as bounties for those who dob them in.
I've backpacked in several different countries, and the traffic in Vietnam is one of a kind. Most people use 150cc scooters, and the traffic rules are vague at best. It’s actually difficult to see anyone following any traffic rules at all, frankly. It seems more like a free for all. I distinctly remember an “intersection” in Hanoi in which pedestrians were crossing a busy street with no crosswalk, no traffic light, just blind faith that people coming down the road–mostly on scooters–would notice them walking and just…not hit them. It was a real-life version of Frogger. I crossed that “intersection” many times, half-laughing and half-scared, but drivers always seemed to sense people crossing. That said, I also witnessed first hand at least two accidents involving scooters. So to hear of the high accident and death rate doesn't surprise me.
posted by zardoz at 4:37 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 4:37 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
A view of rush hour commute in Hanoi City from a few years ago.
posted by SteveInMaine at 4:41 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
posted by SteveInMaine at 4:41 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
I note that Vietnam’s 11.5k annual deaths caused by motorists in a country of 99M people isn’t very different than the U.S. rate of ~41k per 340M, which mostly gets used as an argument for buying bigger vehicles.
posted by adamsc at 4:55 AM on January 15 [24 favorites]
posted by adamsc at 4:55 AM on January 15 [24 favorites]
Double it.
posted by Captaintripps at 5:32 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
posted by Captaintripps at 5:32 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
Except a smaller proportion of Vietnam's population is car drivers, and presumably they are higher income, apparently higher lethality, and now higher accountability.
(Vietnam's a tuktuk/minibike/scooter society mostly, no?)
posted by ocschwar at 5:33 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
(Vietnam's a tuktuk/minibike/scooter society mostly, no?)
posted by ocschwar at 5:33 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
I'm in favor of eye-watering fines. I'm more in favor of increasing the likelihood of getting caught, since there's strong evidence that it's a stronger knob than the severity of punishment (once severity is above some minimum). Road design is a great tool too, though I don't know Vietnam well enough to say how that would apply.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:49 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]
posted by daveliepmann at 5:49 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]
Yesterday I saw someone behave in traffic in such a way that I thought "we need to invent all new penalties just for him."
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:00 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:00 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed. Please note that the article is about Vietnam, so let's keep the focus there and avoid shifting it to America.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:24 AM on January 15
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:24 AM on January 15
Meh.
> I'm in favor of eye-watering fines.
You are not in harmony with the Tao of Evidence-Based Approaches.
The criminology is clear on this one. The size of the penalty matters way, way less than how likely it is that the penalty will be inflicted.
Whether Vietnam can put enough traffic cops on the beat to do anything is the interesting question.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 6:57 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
> I'm in favor of eye-watering fines.
You are not in harmony with the Tao of Evidence-Based Approaches.
The criminology is clear on this one. The size of the penalty matters way, way less than how likely it is that the penalty will be inflicted.
Whether Vietnam can put enough traffic cops on the beat to do anything is the interesting question.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 6:57 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
I spent a couple weeks in Hanoi a decade ago. The vast majority of the vehicle traffic is mopeds, with a rare car (or even rarer motorcycle) mixed in. The honking is incessant (as a "I am here" notice sound, rather than a rude one) and the quiet of downtown San Francisco was noticeable when I got back. The videos of crossing a busy street are real; you basically just have to walk straight into it at a steady pace and trust that people are going to move around you. Don't try to dodge traffic, just be predictable and steady.
Traffic lanes and signals are suggestions. New York City has something similar with the ebike delivery drivers who run lights and ride on sidewalks. The smaller footprint of a two-wheel vehicle means lanes aren't quite the same. Some of the traffic lights downtown have a countdown system to tell you how soon the red is going to change, and people will run it if there is no/little cross traffic.
There are helmet laws, but most people buy these cheap plastic hats that don't protect anything but will keep you from getting a ticket.
I assume that most the deaths are from car-moped, car-pedestrian, or moped-pedestrian collisions. You can only go so fast in crowded traffic like that. Though computer scientist Seymour Papert (of Mindstorms and Logo turtle fame) died from complications of a moped collision in Hanoi eight years prior.
I'm not sure if eye-watering fines will fix it, rather than consistent enforcement. My friends in Hanoi don't really trust the police, saying they mostly just show up to crime scenes and look around to see who's going to offer up a bribe to them.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:22 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]
Traffic lanes and signals are suggestions. New York City has something similar with the ebike delivery drivers who run lights and ride on sidewalks. The smaller footprint of a two-wheel vehicle means lanes aren't quite the same. Some of the traffic lights downtown have a countdown system to tell you how soon the red is going to change, and people will run it if there is no/little cross traffic.
There are helmet laws, but most people buy these cheap plastic hats that don't protect anything but will keep you from getting a ticket.
I assume that most the deaths are from car-moped, car-pedestrian, or moped-pedestrian collisions. You can only go so fast in crowded traffic like that. Though computer scientist Seymour Papert (of Mindstorms and Logo turtle fame) died from complications of a moped collision in Hanoi eight years prior.
I'm not sure if eye-watering fines will fix it, rather than consistent enforcement. My friends in Hanoi don't really trust the police, saying they mostly just show up to crime scenes and look around to see who's going to offer up a bribe to them.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:22 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]
The criminology is clear on this one. The size of the penalty matters way, way less than how likely it is that the penalty will be inflicted.
It's funny because I agree with you, and originally had language in my comment saying so, which I removed for concision's sake.
posted by daveliepmann at 7:24 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
It's funny because I agree with you, and originally had language in my comment saying so, which I removed for concision's sake.
posted by daveliepmann at 7:24 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
The size of the penalty matters way, way less than how likely it is that the penalty will be inflicted.
It's true that enforcement matters more than the price of a fine. But it's also true that unless the fines are scaled to income, there's no reason at all for the rich to care about avoiding them. What's important here is the scaling, more than the size.
Also I don't think any of that research you're alluding to studies fines at this level. I'd be happy to be shown otherwise, but absent that I think it's reasonable to suspect there's some nonlinearity of deterrent effect as you grow into truly life-altering amounts.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:24 AM on January 15 [7 favorites]
It's true that enforcement matters more than the price of a fine. But it's also true that unless the fines are scaled to income, there's no reason at all for the rich to care about avoiding them. What's important here is the scaling, more than the size.
Also I don't think any of that research you're alluding to studies fines at this level. I'd be happy to be shown otherwise, but absent that I think it's reasonable to suspect there's some nonlinearity of deterrent effect as you grow into truly life-altering amounts.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:24 AM on January 15 [7 favorites]
And also not to come across as a pedant, I suppose
posted by daveliepmann at 7:25 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by daveliepmann at 7:25 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
I think the headline is misleading, however: the fines could be as high as half of the average annual salary, but they do not scale with income. So, poor people who incur these fines could face a much higher relative penalty than rich people. Also, though I am not against the strict enforcement, we are all aware that enforcement is highly unlikely to be applied equally to all people, right? Of course no one should be street racing, but these fines would basically completely ruin them.
I have mixed feelings...
posted by dellsolace at 7:33 AM on January 15 [11 favorites]
I have mixed feelings...
posted by dellsolace at 7:33 AM on January 15 [11 favorites]
Whether Vietnam can put enough traffic cops on the beat to do anything is the interesting question.
Another interesting question is how many of those cops will spend all day running absolutely roughshod over the very traffic laws they're paid to enforce.
posted by flabdablet at 7:56 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
Another interesting question is how many of those cops will spend all day running absolutely roughshod over the very traffic laws they're paid to enforce.
posted by flabdablet at 7:56 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
I had the same experience as zardoz when I was in Vietnam in 2008. Crossing streets as a pedestrian is absolutely a leap of faith. You get the hang of it after a while - just start walking, keep a steady pace, don't hesitate. The drivers are used to it and will just avoid you. Mostly. But it is so hard to turn off the brain stem "YOU WILL BE SMOOSHED" instinct. At one point - and apologies if I have relayed this anecdote previously - I was on one side of the street with grumpybearbride, looking and waiting for a break in the traffic, standing there for at least 5 minutes, when suddenly a little old lady grabs our arms and just sort of leads us across the street, through the traffic. It was terrifying and magical, and that woman was the best.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:57 AM on January 15 [7 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:57 AM on January 15 [7 favorites]
THird-ing zadoz and grumpybear. When I visited Saigon in 2014, from the top of our hotel the traffic pattern looked like schools of fish or a complex flocking algorithm. The only accidents I saw involved cars trying to cut in front of slow-moving scooters.
We also had someone help us figure out how to safely cross the street. As GrumpyBear wrote, keeping a steady pace was the most important. Be predictable.
And WOW, the amount of people/stuff the locals could carry on a scooter!
posted by JohnFromGR at 8:10 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
We also had someone help us figure out how to safely cross the street. As GrumpyBear wrote, keeping a steady pace was the most important. Be predictable.
And WOW, the amount of people/stuff the locals could carry on a scooter!
posted by JohnFromGR at 8:10 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
you basically just have to walk straight into it at a steady pace and trust that people are going to move around you. Don't try to dodge traffic, just be predictable and steady.
...one extra detail I've been told was: under no circumstances should you ever make eye contact with an oncoming driver -- if you do, they'll think you've acknowledged their intended path, and they will then stop trying to avoid you. It becomes your responsibility. As a consequence, I was specifically told to either look straight ahead, or else slightly head-down, and avoid turning to see anyone, just look out of the corners of my eyes.
Key exception: 2+ ton trucks.
Fines should always, always, always, be given as a percentage of income.
posted by aramaic at 8:36 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
...one extra detail I've been told was: under no circumstances should you ever make eye contact with an oncoming driver -- if you do, they'll think you've acknowledged their intended path, and they will then stop trying to avoid you. It becomes your responsibility. As a consequence, I was specifically told to either look straight ahead, or else slightly head-down, and avoid turning to see anyone, just look out of the corners of my eyes.
Key exception: 2+ ton trucks.
Fines should always, always, always, be given as a percentage of income.
posted by aramaic at 8:36 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
The scooter crashes I saw in Vietnam were all tourists braking in a place a Vietnamese person wouldn't have and then disrupting the flow.
posted by knapah at 8:39 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by knapah at 8:39 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
I suspect that part of enforcement is the funding to run the enforcement, which hopefully these fines will be pushed back into. Also interested in how they're going to implement the rewards for turning in unsafe drivers:
posted by straw at 8:53 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
And those who report other drivers for breaking the law could be paid up to 5 million dong — a major bounty in a country where the average monthly income is about 8 million dong, or around $500.But it also demonstrates how automobiles create a social need for a police state.
posted by straw at 8:53 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
Thank you, dellsolace for pointing out the misleading headline/ my failure to rtfa closely enough. Obviously my previous comment is now moot. It would be really nice if more places could start to scale fines by actual income, like most of the Scandinavian countries do. Here's a nice overview of the benefits of such as system (and some potential obstacles/downsides) from U Chicago law school if anyone is interested in the idea.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:04 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:04 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
I visited central and south Vietnam with my family in 2023. I'd never seen anything like traffic there in my life, especially during rush hour in Saigon. I'm not sure how anything could ever be enforced.
posted by slogger at 11:13 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by slogger at 11:13 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
I notice (wrt the traffic in Hanoi city video) that what makes mixed traffic safer than separate traffic is the chaos and the constant need for drivers to pay attention everywhere, which makes them drive more slowly and more attentively. It doesn’t really matter how stupid you drive, as long as you do it slow and in the flow.
posted by toodleydoodley at 11:31 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 11:31 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
My Vietnamese correspondent sent me a video of a guy crouching in the center of a boulevard. He had camouflaged himself with branches so that drivers couldn't see him, and he could catch them and turn them in.
posted by texorama at 11:55 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by texorama at 11:55 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
This reminds me of the traffic in the roundabout surrounding Paris's Arc de Triomphe [SLYT]: it's accepted that all drivers have to be minimally polite, for fear of an accident that screws EVERYONE.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:33 PM on January 15
posted by wenestvedt at 12:33 PM on January 15
The traffic - and the way to cross the street - was the same in Mumbai. Walk out into the traffic, often holding a hand up, walk steadily and let the traffic flow round you. It took me about two weeks to learn this, following old ladies and school children until I got the hang of it.
But it could get scary because there were a lot of buses and trucks, and they often went past only a few inches away.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 1:02 PM on January 15
But it could get scary because there were a lot of buses and trucks, and they often went past only a few inches away.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 1:02 PM on January 15
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posted by rory at 1:55 AM on January 15 [15 favorites]