Musk DOGE engineers identified
February 2, 2025 9:43 PM Subscribe
Elon Musk’s takeover of federal government infrastructure relies on the following six software engineers: Akash Bobba, Edward Coristine, Luke Farritor, Gautier Cole Killian, Gavin Kliger, and Ethan Shaotran.
“To the extent these individuals are exercising what would otherwise be relatively significant managerial control over two very large agencies that deal with very complex topics,” says Nick Bednar, a professor at University of Minnesota’s school of law, “it is very unlikely they have the expertise to understand either the law or the administrative needs that surround these agencies.”
“To the extent these individuals are exercising what would otherwise be relatively significant managerial control over two very large agencies that deal with very complex topics,” says Nick Bednar, a professor at University of Minnesota’s school of law, “it is very unlikely they have the expertise to understand either the law or the administrative needs that surround these agencies.”
"God help us, we're in the hands of engineers." --Dr. Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
posted by dephlogisticated at 10:07 PM on February 2 [48 favorites]
posted by dephlogisticated at 10:07 PM on February 2 [48 favorites]
One of them is Canadian apparently. I will never complain about the time it takes to do clearances for our IT systems again.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:20 PM on February 2 [11 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:20 PM on February 2 [11 favorites]
This is excellent but also Wired this is not the time for a paywall cmon.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:56 PM on February 2 [16 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:56 PM on February 2 [16 favorites]
Well, I finally got around to doing one of my special 'paughtraits' of Musk I usually do very grotesque versions of the grotesques I draw, but with Musk I decided not to do that and instead am drawing him in a sort of Marvel comics super villain way. It's a work in progress but you ge the idea.
Also, fuck Elon Miusk. This is literally insane what he has been allowed to do.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 10:59 PM on February 2 [23 favorites]
Also, fuck Elon Miusk. This is literally insane what he has been allowed to do.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 10:59 PM on February 2 [23 favorites]
„Our long national nightmare…“ …seems like it’s just beginning.
This is, truly a nightmare. Not only in the, worst moments, „oh my god they’re staging a coup“ but also in the more considered, „yo, this is not the way you do things.“
We could really do with some … something/someone stepping in and stopping all of this.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:45 PM on February 2 [6 favorites]
This is, truly a nightmare. Not only in the, worst moments, „oh my god they’re staging a coup“ but also in the more considered, „yo, this is not the way you do things.“
We could really do with some … something/someone stepping in and stopping all of this.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:45 PM on February 2 [6 favorites]
Mod note: I have deleted a comment apparently giving the home address of Mark Pittella (Deputy Director, U.S. Marshals Service, appointed July 2024). I don't even know why you are doing this, but don't do this.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:53 PM on February 2 [28 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:53 PM on February 2 [28 favorites]
This is so batshit crazy. I don’t know how we ended up in this insane timeline, but we need the Doctor to swoop in with the Tardis and set things right.
Instead we’re probably just gonna watch this country slowly disintegrate before our eyes.
We won’t be recovering our reputation on the world stage for years. Probably decades. And rightfully so.
posted by teece303 at 12:25 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
Instead we’re probably just gonna watch this country slowly disintegrate before our eyes.
We won’t be recovering our reputation on the world stage for years. Probably decades. And rightfully so.
posted by teece303 at 12:25 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
But what if we wanted to send him a letter?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:25 AM on February 3 [10 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:25 AM on February 3 [10 favorites]
METAFILTER: This is so batshit crazy. I don’t know how we ended up in this insane timeline, but
posted by philip-random at 12:28 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 12:28 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
They are young, but they aren't children, and giving the public nature of what they are doing, I think it appropriate that they not be anonymous.
It is illegal in a lot of states to publish the home addresses of cops, regardless of site policy, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of those laws were broad enough to cover the Deputy Director of the US Marshals. If you wanted to send him a letter, you would either have to do your own research, or send it care of the US Marshal's office .
posted by surlyben at 12:33 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
It is illegal in a lot of states to publish the home addresses of cops, regardless of site policy, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of those laws were broad enough to cover the Deputy Director of the US Marshals. If you wanted to send him a letter, you would either have to do your own research, or send it care of the US Marshal's office .
posted by surlyben at 12:33 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
I'm the one who posted the address and I want to give the context for it. He is a public official who has publicly posted his address in the phone directory and online. I encourage everyone here and especially any journalists to contact him. It is on his authority that Musk is dismissing the security staff of these organizations and gaining access to the buildings and the infrastructure. Musk is claiming to act with the direct authority of the US Federal Marshall's office. It is NOT 6 college students we should be talking about. It is the public official and authority who's address I posted that we should be contacting.
posted by weard_beard at 12:35 AM on February 3 [60 favorites]
posted by weard_beard at 12:35 AM on February 3 [60 favorites]
Nations are built on laws. We do that so they are not built on violence. As a huge fan of the overall American project (and a fierce critic of its flaws) this whole situation is so sad.
These young thugs are ripping apart a machine of deep, ineffable complexity built by smart people over decades. Their violence will harm millions of innocents.
Under what legal authority are they acting? I can't see even a plausible fig-leaf. Who is giving them the power to dismiss loyal servants of the state?
This will end fast with legal measures, or slowly with violence.
I can only think of the words of Sir Thomas More in "A Man for All Seasons:
“And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!”
posted by Combat Wombat at 12:42 AM on February 3 [38 favorites]
These young thugs are ripping apart a machine of deep, ineffable complexity built by smart people over decades. Their violence will harm millions of innocents.
Under what legal authority are they acting? I can't see even a plausible fig-leaf. Who is giving them the power to dismiss loyal servants of the state?
This will end fast with legal measures, or slowly with violence.
I can only think of the words of Sir Thomas More in "A Man for All Seasons:
“And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!”
posted by Combat Wombat at 12:42 AM on February 3 [38 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. Well, we are not doxxing people (with seeming suggestion of violent action) during my shift at any rate. Please make a Metatalk post if this seems unreasonable.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:42 AM on February 3 [31 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:42 AM on February 3 [31 favorites]
There was no suggestion whatsoever of violent action in my post, to be clear. I specifically mentioned I hoped reporters would reach out to him in order to avoid violence. I mentioned Mother Jones in my post who did a great job in their writeup of Bob Kroll during the George Floyd uprising. I will take any other notes to Metatalk if necessary. Just wanted to provide sufficient context here.
posted by weard_beard at 12:50 AM on February 3 [17 favorites]
posted by weard_beard at 12:50 AM on February 3 [17 favorites]
Under what legal authority are they acting? I can't see even a plausible fig-leaf. Who is giving them the power to dismiss loyal servants of the state
There isn’t one. Musk is following the tech-bro “move fast and break things” playbook. He’s learned through long experience that there are no meaningful consequences to violating norms or breaking laws that can’t be mitigated through the application of piles of money.
posted by CaffinatedOne at 2:00 AM on February 3 [45 favorites]
There isn’t one. Musk is following the tech-bro “move fast and break things” playbook. He’s learned through long experience that there are no meaningful consequences to violating norms or breaking laws that can’t be mitigated through the application of piles of money.
posted by CaffinatedOne at 2:00 AM on February 3 [45 favorites]
Department of Granny Executors
posted by funkaspuck at 4:00 AM on February 3 [6 favorites]
posted by funkaspuck at 4:00 AM on February 3 [6 favorites]
I do not understand how these bros haven’t been arrested yet.
And also, someone should point out to them that Musk has hired that particular team for the same reason men over 40 date women under 22, or cults target the late teens to early 20s demographic - because they don’t have the life experience to recognize when they are being exploited, mistreated, or asked to do blatantly illegal or unethical shit.
Make sure the young people in your life know that a workplace being starkly split between a few older managers and a majority of new hires generally means that some health and safety, labor, or other laws are being heavily violated. (Or that it’s a cult.)
posted by eviemath at 4:23 AM on February 3 [74 favorites]
And also, someone should point out to them that Musk has hired that particular team for the same reason men over 40 date women under 22, or cults target the late teens to early 20s demographic - because they don’t have the life experience to recognize when they are being exploited, mistreated, or asked to do blatantly illegal or unethical shit.
Make sure the young people in your life know that a workplace being starkly split between a few older managers and a majority of new hires generally means that some health and safety, labor, or other laws are being heavily violated. (Or that it’s a cult.)
posted by eviemath at 4:23 AM on February 3 [74 favorites]
I do not understand how these bros haven’t been arrested yet.
Every mechanism of power is in the hands of fascists and they are moving swiftly to eradicate any centers of institutional adherence to laws and norms.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:26 AM on February 3 [28 favorites]
Every mechanism of power is in the hands of fascists and they are moving swiftly to eradicate any centers of institutional adherence to laws and norms.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:26 AM on February 3 [28 favorites]
Since we're talking about violence, never doubt, there will be violence as a result of this illegal takeover of government. Have these idiots never heard the phrase "going postal"? Imagine that with millions of federal employees affected. Luigi was just slightly ahead of his time is my prediction. You may be a super cool techbro nerd with mad computer skillz but gun ownership in this country checks that.
posted by nofundy at 4:30 AM on February 3 [9 favorites]
posted by nofundy at 4:30 AM on February 3 [9 favorites]
If they're operating with a cadre of US Marshalls loyal to Musk/Trump as muscle, you want to be calling literally anyone BUT the lead guy of the US Marshalls office?
They found at least one office of people with guns who are loyal to Musk/Trump over the laws of the land. You want to find literally anyone else to act as an armed check at the next place Musk attacks.
posted by Slackermagee at 4:58 AM on February 3 [7 favorites]
They found at least one office of people with guns who are loyal to Musk/Trump over the laws of the land. You want to find literally anyone else to act as an armed check at the next place Musk attacks.
posted by Slackermagee at 4:58 AM on February 3 [7 favorites]
Maybe the real Deep State is everybody we fucked over along the way.
posted by flabdablet at 5:02 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 5:02 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
I am normally not in favor of doxxing and violence, but these shitgibbons are quite literally destroying our country and the time for decorum and "well, we shouldn't do that" tsk-tsking is over. Nobody is going to give a fuck that Metafilter behaved and didn't "go there" when we don't have elections anymore.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:18 AM on February 3 [18 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:18 AM on February 3 [18 favorites]
Team Barely Legal a Musk/Thiel production
posted by lescour at 5:25 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
posted by lescour at 5:25 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
My experience of Metafilter would not lead me to believe that its cadre of librarians, NPR enthusiasts and furries is likely to arrive unannounced at the doorstep of the Deputy Director of the US Marshalls anytime soon, at least not without a fresh-baked cherry pie and perhaps a bottle of sensibly priced but tasteful domestic wine. Please be serious.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:29 AM on February 3 [31 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:29 AM on February 3 [31 favorites]
If anyone here wants to dox on their own social or web spot, go be brave and let us know. We’re not Bluechan.
posted by drowsy at 5:46 AM on February 3 [9 favorites]
posted by drowsy at 5:46 AM on February 3 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile here's a great piece from Nathan Tankus that explores what the hell Musk thinks he's doing in the federal payments system (hint: that cobol joke i made yesterday was oddly prescient):
Even as someone who has spent an unusual amount of time thinking about the Treasury’s internal payments system for a person who has never been in government, I find grasping the full implications of Elon Musk and his apparatchiks reaching into and trying to exert full control over the Treasury’s payment system mind-boggling.
There is nothing more important on the entire planet than getting Elon Musk and DOGE out of the Bureau of the Fiscal Service and allowing career civil service employees to run the Treasury’s internal payments system without capricious and self-serving interference from billionaires and their allies. This effort must fail if we are to safeguard any semblance of due process and lawfulness in the executive branch. A vague anonymous promise that DOGE only has “read only” access is not enough. They need to be rooted out so that we can return to the slower moving, less dangerous, “five alarm fire” constitutional crisis we were having as of Friday morning.
posted by mittens at 5:49 AM on February 3 [44 favorites]
Even as someone who has spent an unusual amount of time thinking about the Treasury’s internal payments system for a person who has never been in government, I find grasping the full implications of Elon Musk and his apparatchiks reaching into and trying to exert full control over the Treasury’s payment system mind-boggling.
There is nothing more important on the entire planet than getting Elon Musk and DOGE out of the Bureau of the Fiscal Service and allowing career civil service employees to run the Treasury’s internal payments system without capricious and self-serving interference from billionaires and their allies. This effort must fail if we are to safeguard any semblance of due process and lawfulness in the executive branch. A vague anonymous promise that DOGE only has “read only” access is not enough. They need to be rooted out so that we can return to the slower moving, less dangerous, “five alarm fire” constitutional crisis we were having as of Friday morning.
posted by mittens at 5:49 AM on February 3 [44 favorites]
Dear US military
...against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
Etc.
posted by Pouteria at 6:06 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
...against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
Etc.
posted by Pouteria at 6:06 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
Luigi was just slightly ahead of his time is my prediction. You may be a super cool techbro nerd with mad computer skillz but gun ownership in this country checks that.
we've got more than enough guns for all Mario Party characters + Super Smash Bros characters across all games of both series
posted by numaner at 6:08 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
we've got more than enough guns for all Mario Party characters + Super Smash Bros characters across all games of both series
posted by numaner at 6:08 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
wait now I really want to see a gif of yoshi gobbling musk and then spitting him back out at drumpf
posted by numaner at 6:09 AM on February 3 [1 favorite]
posted by numaner at 6:09 AM on February 3 [1 favorite]
WTF, DNC? Metaphorically, why aren't you tearing up the tracks to derail their trains to the concentration camps?
posted by mikelieman at 6:13 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 6:13 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
Anyone else having an identity crisis while watching younger, shittier versions of ourselves systematically demolish the government while geeking out over fandom and technology? Because I sure am.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:14 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:14 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
Musk and his toadies are the embodiment of the phrase "why don't you just...".
posted by snwod at 6:19 AM on February 3 [7 favorites]
posted by snwod at 6:19 AM on February 3 [7 favorites]
I am getting SO sick of this whole mess. I’m a hair shy of 15 years as a federal employee. I hate the uncertainty, the confusion, the fear. But above all, I absolutely am furious that the people nominally in charge think they can simply ignore all the laws and regulations that we live by. DOGE engineer is Canadian? We can’t even accept a goddamn FREE VOLUNTEER from Canada without a huge amount of effort to prove there is no qualified American interested in that unpaid position. I spend my time nagging people to do the mandatory ethics training, which apparently isn’t required for anyone at the top. We repeatedly educate our staff on the fiscal rules - no one can authorize federal funds except the few with actual permission to do so - and the hiring rules, only your department!s HR can authorize employment actions - then an outside teenager in a different agency, using an illegal email server, tells all of us “low productivity” workers we can get an 8 month paid vacation?
Trump isn’t in charge. Musk is. Trump doesn’t know what Musk is doing and cannot control Musk, because Trump is weak and old. We need to repeat this, loudly and regularly, because Trump’s ego is our fastest solution here - the only way to get this Nazi imbecile out before he destroys our government is to cause a messy break-up between him and Trump.
Fucking “low productivity”. That message went over like a fart in church, let me tell you. We deal with SO MUCH SHIT on a daily basis. We do this for FAR less money than anyone pays outside of government. We do our jobs with handcuffs on, there are so, SO many things that would be simple in private industry but take ages and piles of documentation in federal work, for a reason (not always a good reason - but still). We are AMAZINGLY productive given the conditions. The amount of unpaid overtime our senior staff puts in? Jesus, if they actually paid ME for the time I spent post-tour making sure shit happened, we’d be in a different tax bracket, but the nature of the job isn’t self-centered, it’s service.
Some article I read pointed out the “plush life of the bureaucrat” and I about threw up in my mouth. I do OK but it is by no means plush. If I didn’t already live in my neighborhood, I’d be priced out of it because gentrification. I have no idea how I’ll put my kid through college. I get a paltry amount of vacation time annually - my wife’s leave is maxed out and can’t take a trip with me, because I’m always in the verge of running out, and I can’t carry even HALF the leave she gets, thanks to my “plush life” benefits.
These assholes do not understand why we work in government. They cannot and never will understand why service to others can be rewarding. They have treated us as if we are tech workers here for the paycheck, and that was a major fucking miscalculation on their part because EVERYONE I know is saying fuck them, if they want us gone they’ll have to fire us.
Tl;dr version: fuck these assholes, I hope Musk gets deported.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:21 AM on February 3 [147 favorites]
Trump isn’t in charge. Musk is. Trump doesn’t know what Musk is doing and cannot control Musk, because Trump is weak and old. We need to repeat this, loudly and regularly, because Trump’s ego is our fastest solution here - the only way to get this Nazi imbecile out before he destroys our government is to cause a messy break-up between him and Trump.
Fucking “low productivity”. That message went over like a fart in church, let me tell you. We deal with SO MUCH SHIT on a daily basis. We do this for FAR less money than anyone pays outside of government. We do our jobs with handcuffs on, there are so, SO many things that would be simple in private industry but take ages and piles of documentation in federal work, for a reason (not always a good reason - but still). We are AMAZINGLY productive given the conditions. The amount of unpaid overtime our senior staff puts in? Jesus, if they actually paid ME for the time I spent post-tour making sure shit happened, we’d be in a different tax bracket, but the nature of the job isn’t self-centered, it’s service.
Some article I read pointed out the “plush life of the bureaucrat” and I about threw up in my mouth. I do OK but it is by no means plush. If I didn’t already live in my neighborhood, I’d be priced out of it because gentrification. I have no idea how I’ll put my kid through college. I get a paltry amount of vacation time annually - my wife’s leave is maxed out and can’t take a trip with me, because I’m always in the verge of running out, and I can’t carry even HALF the leave she gets, thanks to my “plush life” benefits.
These assholes do not understand why we work in government. They cannot and never will understand why service to others can be rewarding. They have treated us as if we are tech workers here for the paycheck, and that was a major fucking miscalculation on their part because EVERYONE I know is saying fuck them, if they want us gone they’ll have to fire us.
Tl;dr version: fuck these assholes, I hope Musk gets deported.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:21 AM on February 3 [147 favorites]
yoshi gobbling musk
we don't do rule 34 here
posted by mittens at 6:21 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
we don't do rule 34 here
posted by mittens at 6:21 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: We’re not Bluechan
posted by otherchaz at 6:36 AM on February 3 [10 favorites]
posted by otherchaz at 6:36 AM on February 3 [10 favorites]
Trump isn’t in charge. Musk is. Trump doesn’t know what Musk is doing and cannot control Musk, because Trump is weak and old. We need to repeat this, loudly and regularly, because Trump’s ego is our fastest solution here - the only way to get this Nazi imbecile out before he destroys our government is to cause a messy break-up between him and Trump.
I think the arrangement of golfing while signing important documents and mugging for the cameras while someone else does the work is what Trump actually wants here?
posted by Slackermagee at 6:41 AM on February 3 [14 favorites]
I think the arrangement of golfing while signing important documents and mugging for the cameras while someone else does the work is what Trump actually wants here?
posted by Slackermagee at 6:41 AM on February 3 [14 favorites]
I caught up with one of my better friends last week and he told me he had built an automated doxxing machine for ICE agents, using completely public records. The output was automatically generated videos published to TikTok.
You know that line from F Scott Fitzgerald about genius being the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time?
Gentle Reader, I was proud as hell of him. And I still told him to go home, turn off the code and delete it.
posted by ifatfirstyoudontsucceed at 6:51 AM on February 3 [15 favorites]
You know that line from F Scott Fitzgerald about genius being the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time?
Gentle Reader, I was proud as hell of him. And I still told him to go home, turn off the code and delete it.
posted by ifatfirstyoudontsucceed at 6:51 AM on February 3 [15 favorites]
Talking about such action, especially with someone who is going to then repeat it on a public website, certainly indicates a lack of operational security that could endanger your friend, at least.
posted by eviemath at 7:05 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:05 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
At the very least he ought to be running that shit offshore.
posted by flabdablet at 7:06 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 7:06 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
DOGE Will Allow Elon Musk to Surveil the US Government From the Inside - "A former USDS employee called the repurposing of the Digital Service into DOGE an 'A+ bureaucratic jiu-jitsu move.' It will give Musk and his associates access to unclassified data in every government agency."
Elon Musk's Friends Have Infiltrated Another Government Agency - "Elon Musk's former employees are trying to use White House credentials to access General Services Administration tech, giving them the potential to remote into laptops, read emails, and more, sources say."
posted by kliuless at 7:14 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
Elon Musk's Friends Have Infiltrated Another Government Agency - "Elon Musk's former employees are trying to use White House credentials to access General Services Administration tech, giving them the potential to remote into laptops, read emails, and more, sources say."
posted by kliuless at 7:14 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
Excelllent Primer from Heather Cox Richardson to send to your friends and relatives who don't follow the news closely enough to know this is happening. No one had work has heard about this at all.
In a riveting piece today, in his Thinking about…, scholar of authoritarianism Timothy Snyder wrote that “[t]he people who now dominate the executive branch of the government…are acting, quite deliberately, to destroy the nation.” “Think of the federal government as a car,” he wrote. “You might have thought that the election was like getting the car serviced. Instead, when you come into the shop, the mechanics, who somehow don’t look like mechanics, tell you that they have taken the parts of your car that work and sold them and kept the money. And that this was the most efficient thing to do. And that you should thank them.”
This is theft - both outright theft via diverting money that should have gone to where Congress appropriated it into a tax cut for corporations and the ultra-wealthy, and secondary theft when Elon & co sell the data on every US American and the entire national security apparatus to the highest bidder. Though TBH that has probably happened already.
It is not even the usual theft of gradually eroding government services to eventually privatize them that we've been dealing with for decades, but a much worse form of blatantly illegal theft that will destroy the entire country within a handful a years.
WTF, DNC? Metaphorically, why aren't you tearing up the tracks to derail their trains to the concentration camps?
Rumor going around that Hakeem Jeffries is organizing House Dems to force votes on every issue - basically a stall tactic to keep Congress from functioning - until Republicans in Congress move to do something about Trump.
But, I can't find any confirmations in the news yet about this. So these are rumors, but this is exactly what house Dems should do while the mainstream media NEEDS to keep reporting on this with urgency until the average American understands how much of a crisis we are in. As I said, no one at work had heard about this at all.
posted by subdee at 7:20 AM on February 3 [24 favorites]
In a riveting piece today, in his Thinking about…, scholar of authoritarianism Timothy Snyder wrote that “[t]he people who now dominate the executive branch of the government…are acting, quite deliberately, to destroy the nation.” “Think of the federal government as a car,” he wrote. “You might have thought that the election was like getting the car serviced. Instead, when you come into the shop, the mechanics, who somehow don’t look like mechanics, tell you that they have taken the parts of your car that work and sold them and kept the money. And that this was the most efficient thing to do. And that you should thank them.”
This is theft - both outright theft via diverting money that should have gone to where Congress appropriated it into a tax cut for corporations and the ultra-wealthy, and secondary theft when Elon & co sell the data on every US American and the entire national security apparatus to the highest bidder. Though TBH that has probably happened already.
It is not even the usual theft of gradually eroding government services to eventually privatize them that we've been dealing with for decades, but a much worse form of blatantly illegal theft that will destroy the entire country within a handful a years.
WTF, DNC? Metaphorically, why aren't you tearing up the tracks to derail their trains to the concentration camps?
Rumor going around that Hakeem Jeffries is organizing House Dems to force votes on every issue - basically a stall tactic to keep Congress from functioning - until Republicans in Congress move to do something about Trump.
But, I can't find any confirmations in the news yet about this. So these are rumors, but this is exactly what house Dems should do while the mainstream media NEEDS to keep reporting on this with urgency until the average American understands how much of a crisis we are in. As I said, no one at work had heard about this at all.
posted by subdee at 7:20 AM on February 3 [24 favorites]
I'm very sorry. I know this is a very serious topic and this is a very dark time. Nonetheless, it must be said, and no one has said it yet:
Metafilter: A cadre of librarians, NPR enthusiasts and furries
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:35 AM on February 3 [46 favorites]
Metafilter: A cadre of librarians, NPR enthusiasts and furries
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:35 AM on February 3 [46 favorites]
What it’s been like inside USAID, an agency that Donald Trump and the world’s richest man decided to eliminate
USAID is the guinea pig. After us, there will be more. Many more. And then, eventually, there will be none. Elon Musk and the DOGE, a made-up meme of an organization with no congressional mandate to exist, has started to replace more than 2 million experienced experts who have dedicated their careers to helping everyday Americans with untrained, inefficient, and incompetent tech bros.
posted by lalochezia at 7:37 AM on February 3 [15 favorites]
I know the feds won't do anything for fear of Trump, but I'm curious if DC law enforcement has any jurisdiction.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:50 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:50 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
USAID was a surgical target.
While it does do charitable work it's also a cover for intelligence operations around the world. I'm fully convinced Musk and Trump knew absolutely nothing about this organization until an external influence, and I won't bother to guess who, told them it would be a good idea to shut it down.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:56 AM on February 3 [42 favorites]
While it does do charitable work it's also a cover for intelligence operations around the world. I'm fully convinced Musk and Trump knew absolutely nothing about this organization until an external influence, and I won't bother to guess who, told them it would be a good idea to shut it down.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:56 AM on February 3 [42 favorites]
Explanation of why Musk had illegally targeted USAid: It was active in dismantling aparthied.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:58 AM on February 3 [34 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:58 AM on February 3 [34 favorites]
I know the feds won't do anything for fear of Trump, but I'm curious if DC law enforcement has any jurisdiction.
The FBI has taken a very strong line against the Justice department in defending their own employees. I'm very curious if they're going to be able to find a way to expand that to other agencies as well.
While it does do charitable work it's also a cover for intelligence operations around the world.
There has been a notable lack of any mention of the CIA in all this. I can't imagine they're pleased. Specifically, I have to think they're pretty mad at Musk right now.
posted by anastasiav at 8:03 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
The FBI has taken a very strong line against the Justice department in defending their own employees. I'm very curious if they're going to be able to find a way to expand that to other agencies as well.
While it does do charitable work it's also a cover for intelligence operations around the world.
There has been a notable lack of any mention of the CIA in all this. I can't imagine they're pleased. Specifically, I have to think they're pretty mad at Musk right now.
posted by anastasiav at 8:03 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
What this last week has shown is that Elon actually understands the near-total level of impunity under which he's acting. Donald seems to not fully realize how free his hand is yet.
posted by tclark at 8:05 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
posted by tclark at 8:05 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
anastasiav, that's not the FBI. Those are lawyers representing FBI employees.
posted by prefpara at 8:06 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 8:06 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
They are, but see also James Dennehy, FBI NY Field Office. Obviously the FBI cannot take legal action against Justice, but it seems pretty clear that leadership is willing and able to to stand up and say "try us".
posted by anastasiav at 8:09 AM on February 3 [6 favorites]
posted by anastasiav at 8:09 AM on February 3 [6 favorites]
It is not even the usual theft of gradually eroding government services to eventually privatize them that we've been dealing with for decades, but a much worse form of blatantly illegal theft that will destroy the entire country within a handful a years.
Years? Pfft.
Six months, tops. And that is being generous.
Greatest and most blatant smash and grab raid in history. And thus far it is working a treat for them.
posted by Pouteria at 8:11 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
Years? Pfft.
Six months, tops. And that is being generous.
Greatest and most blatant smash and grab raid in history. And thus far it is working a treat for them.
posted by Pouteria at 8:11 AM on February 3 [13 favorites]
There is 100% going to be serious, catastrophic violence within the next month.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:11 AM on February 3 [15 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:11 AM on February 3 [15 favorites]
I know the feds won't do anything for fear of Trump, but I'm curious if DC law enforcement has any jurisdiction.
Fun fact there are over thirty law enforcement agencies in DC; MPD (Metropolitan Police Department) is probably what you mean here but because of stuff like Park Police and Treasury Police and Capitol Police and so on there is A Lot of law enforcement in this city.
posted by an octopus IRL at 8:16 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
Fun fact there are over thirty law enforcement agencies in DC; MPD (Metropolitan Police Department) is probably what you mean here but because of stuff like Park Police and Treasury Police and Capitol Police and so on there is A Lot of law enforcement in this city.
posted by an octopus IRL at 8:16 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
An FBI coup then? Interesting sequal to Musk's Junta Establishes Him as Head of Government
A Russian friend just told me that Russian alternative media pretty much shutdown.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:38 AM on February 3 [1 favorite]
A Russian friend just told me that Russian alternative media pretty much shutdown.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:38 AM on February 3 [1 favorite]
We could really do with some … something/someone stepping in and stopping all of this.
Who?!
Seriously, seems like we need some kind of anti-Trump figure with whopping money and charisma who fights dirty, and I don't know who that'd be in this world.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:44 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
Who?!
Seriously, seems like we need some kind of anti-Trump figure with whopping money and charisma who fights dirty, and I don't know who that'd be in this world.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:44 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
This might be the thing that brings back robust federalism. If you're a Kathy Hochul or Gavin Newsom, maybe this is the time to say, "hey, give us back a bunch of our federal taxes, and the keys to regulate and provide non-defense services as we see fit at our own expense." Republicans observe that means Texas, Tennessee and Florida would get to do the same and say "done deal."
posted by MattD at 8:50 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
posted by MattD at 8:50 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Republicans observe that means Texas, Tennessee and Florida would get to do the same and say "done deal."
The breakneck speed at which Republicans pivoted on abortion from "it's a matter for the states" to "mifepristone should be regulated at the federal level" leaves little doubt that such an arrangement will never happen.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:55 AM on February 3 [27 favorites]
The breakneck speed at which Republicans pivoted on abortion from "it's a matter for the states" to "mifepristone should be regulated at the federal level" leaves little doubt that such an arrangement will never happen.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:55 AM on February 3 [27 favorites]
WTF, DNC? Metaphorically, why aren't you tearing up the tracks to derail their trains to the concentration camps?
Grain of salt due to social media & all that, and also not saying that Schumer, Jeffries, et al have been demonstrating a clear understanding of how to seize the narrative, BUT there have been lots of rumblings that a lot of Dem reps & Senators have spent the past week trying to help constituents figure out what's going on & how to actually carry out their missions. Like, they're getting deluged with panicked calls from orgs going, "We've got a dozen seniors we need to transport to dialysis and we don't know if we are allowed to put gas in the truck & who's paying for it!!"
posted by soundguy99 at 9:04 AM on February 3 [1 favorite]
Grain of salt due to social media & all that, and also not saying that Schumer, Jeffries, et al have been demonstrating a clear understanding of how to seize the narrative, BUT there have been lots of rumblings that a lot of Dem reps & Senators have spent the past week trying to help constituents figure out what's going on & how to actually carry out their missions. Like, they're getting deluged with panicked calls from orgs going, "We've got a dozen seniors we need to transport to dialysis and we don't know if we are allowed to put gas in the truck & who's paying for it!!"
posted by soundguy99 at 9:04 AM on February 3 [1 favorite]
a lot of Dem reps & Senators have spent the past week trying to help constituents figure out what's going on & how to actually carry out their missions
a lot of words for 'reacting'
We are all reacting.
posted by ginger.beef at 9:10 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
a lot of words for 'reacting'
We are all reacting.
posted by ginger.beef at 9:10 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
Apparently there’s going to be an all-employee meeting for USAID soon, where a bunch of job cuts etc. are expected. Someone mentioned in another recent thread that US federal employees are prohibited or severely restricted from striking, but a sit-in is not a strike. And if employees happen to sit in in a manner that coincidentally makes it impossible for whatever Musk flunkies are making the announcement to leave the room until they reconsider their life choices… well, that would just be an unfortunate side effect, no?
Knowing some labor history is quite helpful for coming up with creative resistance ideas.
posted by eviemath at 9:11 AM on February 3 [8 favorites]
Knowing some labor history is quite helpful for coming up with creative resistance ideas.
posted by eviemath at 9:11 AM on February 3 [8 favorites]
One thing we can do: delay paying our federal income taxes. Wait til the dust settles before handing over any more money to Treasury for these civilians to monkey with.
posted by the_dusty at 9:16 AM on February 3 [7 favorites]
posted by the_dusty at 9:16 AM on February 3 [7 favorites]
no taxation without representation
posted by flabdablet at 9:18 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:18 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
There is a growing boycott of Tesla in Poland, France and Germany. I would think that when Uber customers request a non-Tesla it would make a quick dent in demand too.
posted by Brian B. at 9:18 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 9:18 AM on February 3 [3 favorites]
One thing we can do: delay paying our federal income taxes
My taxes are taken out every 2 weeks automatically.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:18 AM on February 3 [15 favorites]
My taxes are taken out every 2 weeks automatically.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:18 AM on February 3 [15 favorites]
Democrats lost so badly that they can't do anything meaningful, all they can do is blow up the media about it, and they know more is coming, so they are paralyzed by the idea of doing that and then watching something much worse happen, turning it into a boy who cried wolf situation and weakening them further.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:20 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:20 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Chuck Schumer can't stop posting about pizza prices. He is such a reprehensible, useless rube.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:29 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:29 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
One thing we can do: delay paying our federal income taxes
that's fine if you owe them money - if they owe you, you're just giving them an interest free loan
posted by pyramid termite at 9:38 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
that's fine if you owe them money - if they owe you, you're just giving them an interest free loan
posted by pyramid termite at 9:38 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Dem Sen Brian Schatz says he will stall Trump nominees until USAID is back.
posted by toastyk at 9:39 AM on February 3 [21 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 9:39 AM on February 3 [21 favorites]
Yeah, generally, tax time is when I get money back. So maybe this is exactly the time to do your taxes. I personally would recommend it, as all this bullshit could easily lead to a massive delay in issuing people their tax return.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:40 AM on February 3 [7 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:40 AM on February 3 [7 favorites]
And also, someone should point out to them that Musk has hired that particular team for the same reason men over 40 date women under 22, or cults target the late teens to early 20s demographic - because they don’t have the life experience to recognize when they are being exploited, mistreated, or asked to do blatantly illegal or unethical shit.
Anyone else having an identity crisis while watching younger, shittier versions of ourselves systematically demolish the government while geeking out over fandom and technology?
Yeah it’s a weird and self-centered reaction maybe but these guys are basically just my (15+ years ago) classmates, they have strong resumes for recent CS grads doing normal CS grad things and the only answer I can really come up with to what the hell they think they’re doing is they are probably somewhat in awe to be chosen by Elon.
posted by atoxyl at 9:42 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
Anyone else having an identity crisis while watching younger, shittier versions of ourselves systematically demolish the government while geeking out over fandom and technology?
Yeah it’s a weird and self-centered reaction maybe but these guys are basically just my (15+ years ago) classmates, they have strong resumes for recent CS grads doing normal CS grad things and the only answer I can really come up with to what the hell they think they’re doing is they are probably somewhat in awe to be chosen by Elon.
posted by atoxyl at 9:42 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
As a Canadian, I don't have my head wrapped all the way around the American system.
Am I correct to assume that Musk has no constitutional authority to do any of this?
But maybe also that no one has the constitutional authority to immediately stop him other than Trump?
posted by clawsoon at 9:47 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
Am I correct to assume that Musk has no constitutional authority to do any of this?
But maybe also that no one has the constitutional authority to immediately stop him other than Trump?
posted by clawsoon at 9:47 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
One thing we can do: delay paying our federal income taxes.
Delay paying my taxes? I haven't done them yet, but the government probably owes ME money. Will I ever get it?
posted by rhymedirective at 9:47 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Delay paying my taxes? I haven't done them yet, but the government probably owes ME money. Will I ever get it?
posted by rhymedirective at 9:47 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
I'm still stunned like a Dem in Congress that even with the Project 2025 playbook in their hands, they seem to be completely unprepared for what's happening. (i know the answer but...) Did they really not take the months between election day and inauguration day to come up with contingency plans for various scenarios? What did they think was going to happen here and why are they so bad at their jobs?
posted by kokaku at 9:52 AM on February 3 [29 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 9:52 AM on February 3 [29 favorites]
Once again, for the 9 millionth time: evil will always triumph because good is dumb. That's why.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:56 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:56 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
We allowed the republicans to create multi-billionaires with no controls, and they did. Every one of the money-grubbing power-hungry bastards thought they just *might* be able to be that guy one day if they knocked down enough protections and laws, but it turned out they were scooped by a fascist bastard from South Africa. Musk will buy and sell out this country.
And now we're surprised?
posted by BlueHorse at 10:06 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
And now we're surprised?
posted by BlueHorse at 10:06 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
I'm struggling to visualize a path where Trump stays in power for 4 years and yet we all come out of this ok. That's why I think I and a lot of others are privately talking about doing things we can't talk about on Metafilter. So far the plan seems to be:
* Use the courts to delay or complicate Trump's agenda. That's great, but MAGA controls a lot of the judicial branch and for the most part Trump is just doing things (like shutting down USAID) that may be impossible to undo. Not only that, who's going to enforce any anti-Trump rulings? No one, that's who.
* Help Dems win in 2026 so that they have the Senate and House. Which will prevent any more MAGA laws from being passed, and will stop any stupid "investigate-the-investigators" work. But again, Trump is just doing stuff.
* Maybe someone will organize some kind of strike or protest at scale. I haven't seen any evidence of this so far, but maybe it's coming.
* Try to get the presidency in 2028.
I don't think ANY of those things are going to unfuck climate action, WHO, well-functioning government agencies, suffering of the unprivileged, or any of that. I have not heard any talking heads or leaders that I respect give me a plausible scenario where we get back to normal that way, or where the US regains its standing and respect in the world.
The things I see working are:
* tens of millions of people all calling in sick the same day, on schedule, every week.
* tens of millions of people refusing to buy anything but food and medicine for weeks or months, or until Trump is gone.
* sabotage of the physical, social, and electronics networks the bad guys are using.
* asymmetric physical warfare and terrorism against the bad guys (not ideal).
Short version:
* I don't think America survives Trump staying in power until 2026, much less 2028.
* I don't see any paths to forcibly or legally remove him from power.
* I don't know how to influence enough people to neutralize him.
So ... now what?
posted by caviar2d2 at 10:15 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
* Use the courts to delay or complicate Trump's agenda. That's great, but MAGA controls a lot of the judicial branch and for the most part Trump is just doing things (like shutting down USAID) that may be impossible to undo. Not only that, who's going to enforce any anti-Trump rulings? No one, that's who.
* Help Dems win in 2026 so that they have the Senate and House. Which will prevent any more MAGA laws from being passed, and will stop any stupid "investigate-the-investigators" work. But again, Trump is just doing stuff.
* Maybe someone will organize some kind of strike or protest at scale. I haven't seen any evidence of this so far, but maybe it's coming.
* Try to get the presidency in 2028.
I don't think ANY of those things are going to unfuck climate action, WHO, well-functioning government agencies, suffering of the unprivileged, or any of that. I have not heard any talking heads or leaders that I respect give me a plausible scenario where we get back to normal that way, or where the US regains its standing and respect in the world.
The things I see working are:
* tens of millions of people all calling in sick the same day, on schedule, every week.
* tens of millions of people refusing to buy anything but food and medicine for weeks or months, or until Trump is gone.
* sabotage of the physical, social, and electronics networks the bad guys are using.
* asymmetric physical warfare and terrorism against the bad guys (not ideal).
Short version:
* I don't think America survives Trump staying in power until 2026, much less 2028.
* I don't see any paths to forcibly or legally remove him from power.
* I don't know how to influence enough people to neutralize him.
So ... now what?
posted by caviar2d2 at 10:15 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
USAID freeze spells uncertain future for international media
Alternative media elsewhere, especially Russia, disappearing with the USAID shut down really signals the scale of the US propaganda machine, which largely discredits all those journalists past work, as well as any future work if USAID returns one day. Absolutely brilliant maneuver!
posted by jeffburdges at 10:15 AM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Alternative media elsewhere, especially Russia, disappearing with the USAID shut down really signals the scale of the US propaganda machine, which largely discredits all those journalists past work, as well as any future work if USAID returns one day. Absolutely brilliant maneuver!
posted by jeffburdges at 10:15 AM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Almost like the guy doing it is a Russian asset.
posted by Mitheral at 10:30 AM on February 3 [18 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 10:30 AM on February 3 [18 favorites]
Am I correct to assume that Musk has no constitutional authority to do any of this?
Yup.
But maybe also that no one has the constitutional authority to immediately stop him other than Trump?
Immediately? Not really, although that is maybe more of a lack of any kind of enforcement mechanism or process. Which law enforcement org would be responsible for entering the federal buildings and arresting these assholes & removing their software and hard drives? The FBI? The Federal Protective Services (in charge of Federal building security)? The NSA? And who has the authority to give those orders? Nobody has figured that out yet because we're way the fuck off the map.
Congress has some authority to stop him (because he's fucking with departments, funding, and laws created by Congress and not just Executive Orders) but even if we had a Dem majority in Congress the process involves filing lawsuits and getting judges to issue restraining orders and then, again, if Musk decides to just ignore these orders who actually physically goes in & arrests people?
In theory this all would never happen because Congress would impeach & convict any President that let his buddy just run around unplugging shit but, well . . . *gesticulates sadly at everything. *
So no-one has a clear picture of the actual process to stop this.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:31 AM on February 3 [10 favorites]
Yup.
But maybe also that no one has the constitutional authority to immediately stop him other than Trump?
Immediately? Not really, although that is maybe more of a lack of any kind of enforcement mechanism or process. Which law enforcement org would be responsible for entering the federal buildings and arresting these assholes & removing their software and hard drives? The FBI? The Federal Protective Services (in charge of Federal building security)? The NSA? And who has the authority to give those orders? Nobody has figured that out yet because we're way the fuck off the map.
Congress has some authority to stop him (because he's fucking with departments, funding, and laws created by Congress and not just Executive Orders) but even if we had a Dem majority in Congress the process involves filing lawsuits and getting judges to issue restraining orders and then, again, if Musk decides to just ignore these orders who actually physically goes in & arrests people?
In theory this all would never happen because Congress would impeach & convict any President that let his buddy just run around unplugging shit but, well . . . *gesticulates sadly at everything. *
So no-one has a clear picture of the actual process to stop this.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:31 AM on February 3 [10 favorites]
Am I correct to assume that Musk has no constitutional authority to do any of this?
Correct. Not just "no constitutional authority" but no clearance. He is not an employee of the federal government so far as anyone can tell.
But maybe also that no one has the constitutional authority to immediately stop him other than Trump?
Also correct. The Department of Justice, the Federal Marshals, the FBI - all those agencies ultimately work for The President. People and organizations can (and have) request that the courts rule against him and get a court order to stop certain things (which they have), but the real core issue is that there is nobody who has the authority to go and physically remove him as he says he has The President's permission. In theory, its possible that the DC police or some other non-Federal LE agency could try, but there is a high chance it would end up in a guns-drawn stand off with Federal Marshals.
Congress and the Courts can make angry noises, but they have no physical power to stop him.
Honestly, even in a world where somehow Congress saw the light and impeached him on a fast track, it might still come down to that. We're really far off the map now.
I'm still stunned like a Dem in Congress that even with the Project 2025 playbook in their hands, they seem to be completely unprepared for what's happening.
Even in the deepest recesses of progressive online thought I can't find anywhere where anyone predicted "President authorizes private entity to go into agencies and just delete them wholesale." I imagine the Dems thought they'd be fighting this in committees and in floor votes.
posted by anastasiav at 10:32 AM on February 3 [17 favorites]
Correct. Not just "no constitutional authority" but no clearance. He is not an employee of the federal government so far as anyone can tell.
But maybe also that no one has the constitutional authority to immediately stop him other than Trump?
Also correct. The Department of Justice, the Federal Marshals, the FBI - all those agencies ultimately work for The President. People and organizations can (and have) request that the courts rule against him and get a court order to stop certain things (which they have), but the real core issue is that there is nobody who has the authority to go and physically remove him as he says he has The President's permission. In theory, its possible that the DC police or some other non-Federal LE agency could try, but there is a high chance it would end up in a guns-drawn stand off with Federal Marshals.
Congress and the Courts can make angry noises, but they have no physical power to stop him.
Honestly, even in a world where somehow Congress saw the light and impeached him on a fast track, it might still come down to that. We're really far off the map now.
I'm still stunned like a Dem in Congress that even with the Project 2025 playbook in their hands, they seem to be completely unprepared for what's happening.
Even in the deepest recesses of progressive online thought I can't find anywhere where anyone predicted "President authorizes private entity to go into agencies and just delete them wholesale." I imagine the Dems thought they'd be fighting this in committees and in floor votes.
posted by anastasiav at 10:32 AM on February 3 [17 favorites]
Re my previous comment & anastasiav's comment:
Which is IMO one of the reasons we're all so frustrated with lack of public screaming happening from Congressional Dems - we've all seen Trump back down in the face of loud and public objections to his actions. Make a loud enough and large enough fuss and he might be convinced he should tell Musk to back off.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:37 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
Which is IMO one of the reasons we're all so frustrated with lack of public screaming happening from Congressional Dems - we've all seen Trump back down in the face of loud and public objections to his actions. Make a loud enough and large enough fuss and he might be convinced he should tell Musk to back off.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:37 AM on February 3 [12 favorites]
Everyone’s thinking it, but no one wants to say it.
posted by aiq at 10:42 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
posted by aiq at 10:42 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
Well, I'm a little concerned. Trump and his people don't have the authority to do this (and while I am sure Trump thinks it's cool, Elon Musk should ask Rudy Giuliani who he thinks will be held responsible if Musk is widely seen as having gone too far; spoiler: it will never be Donald Trump), but without any clear concept of whose authority it is to stop them, either no one will stop them or someone will stop them. And if it's the second option, that will be someone who stops them because he, she or they have elected themselves the person with that authority; we may call this the "find out" stage, but we may all find out a whole lot we won't like to, at that point.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:53 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:53 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Which is IMO one of the reasons we're all so frustrated with lack of public screaming happening from Congressional Dems
I will say - today has been a little better. Here's the press event outside of USAID. Reps are also trying to get inside USAID. And Sen. Schatz from Hawaii is going to go the Tuberville route and just block things wholesale. But it should not have taken so much public outrage to get to this point.
posted by anastasiav at 10:59 AM on February 3 [17 favorites]
I will say - today has been a little better. Here's the press event outside of USAID. Reps are also trying to get inside USAID. And Sen. Schatz from Hawaii is going to go the Tuberville route and just block things wholesale. But it should not have taken so much public outrage to get to this point.
posted by anastasiav at 10:59 AM on February 3 [17 favorites]
I keep thinking about this classic paper from 1985, Democracy: Presidential or Parliamentary. Does It Make a Difference? [PDF], in which Juan J. Linz pointed out that every strong-president/divided-powers system has been short-lived, except for one.
...with the outstanding exception of the United States, most of the stable democracies of Europe and the Commonwealth have been parliamentary regimes and a few semi-presidential and semi-parliamentary, while most of the countries with presidential constitutions have been unstable democracies or authoritarian regimes and therefore not been included in those efforts of comparative study of democracy. Since there were many social, economic, cultural and political factors that appeared central in the analysis of the crisis and breakdown of democracy in those countries, we find practically no mention of the role of institutional factors in those crises. Only in the case of Chile has there been some reference to the conflict between President Allende and the Congress in the analysis of the breakdown of democracy. It might or might not be an accident that so many countries with presidential regimes have encountered such great difficulties in establishing stable democracies. Certainly the relationship between the two main types of democratic political institutions and the political process deserves more attention than it has received.posted by clawsoon at 11:12 AM on February 3 [11 favorites]
it's clear to me that we need to do away with the office of president - that's way too much power for one person to have
posted by pyramid termite at 11:17 AM on February 3 [10 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 11:17 AM on February 3 [10 favorites]
Marco Rubio is now announcing that he is head of USAID? What?
posted by prefpara at 11:20 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 11:20 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
I'm now waiting for Musk to say he's now Vice President.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:30 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:30 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
As I was saying above, what's the path forward? The entire Constitutional system is really just based on mutual agreement in the same way as, say, money. If all 3 branches say "eh, fuck the Constitution" and the executive branch controls law enforcement and the military, what am I going to do? What is a Democratic representative going to do?
posted by caviar2d2 at 11:35 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 11:35 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Wait can you do that? I'm going to hold a press conference and announce that I am the King of Spain. Take that, Jian Ghomeshi!
How does one hold a press conference? If I just call a lawn care company with a parking lot will they make all the arrangements?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:35 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
How does one hold a press conference? If I just call a lawn care company with a parking lot will they make all the arrangements?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:35 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Wait can you do that? I'm going to hold a press conference and announce that I am the King of Spain. Take that, Jian Ghomeshi!
It does seem that this is one of those windows in history for ambitious, unscrupulous people to attempt to launch themselves to the top of the political system, a Henry-VIII-breaks-with-Catholicism or Mao-launches-the-Cultural-Revolution sort of moment that suits people with a violent, selfish streak and poor impulse control.
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
It does seem that this is one of those windows in history for ambitious, unscrupulous people to attempt to launch themselves to the top of the political system, a Henry-VIII-breaks-with-Catholicism or Mao-launches-the-Cultural-Revolution sort of moment that suits people with a violent, selfish streak and poor impulse control.
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
it's clear to me that we need to do away with the office of president - that's way too much power for one person to have
Basic civics class: The Constitution of the United States divides the federal government into three branches: legislative, executive, and judicial. This ensures that no individual or group will have too much power.
The rot really set in with Nixon and Regan. Democracy in name only. Oligarchy. Game set and match.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:30 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Basic civics class: The Constitution of the United States divides the federal government into three branches: legislative, executive, and judicial. This ensures that no individual or group will have too much power.
The rot really set in with Nixon and Regan. Democracy in name only. Oligarchy. Game set and match.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:30 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
WATCH LIVE: House and Senate Democrats hold news briefing on Trump and Elon Musk shutting down USAID
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:32 PM on February 3 [7 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:32 PM on February 3 [7 favorites]
but the real core issue is that there is nobody who has the authority to go and physically remove him as he says he has The President's permission.
If this is the case, then he could produce some sort of signed document. If he would need to be confirmed by Congress or have a certain security clearance to have the powers he claims, that would also leave a paper trail. Lacking that documentation, he is trespassing on federal property and illegally accessing US government computer systems, which have historically been considered very serious crimes.
posted by eviemath at 12:33 PM on February 3 [11 favorites]
If this is the case, then he could produce some sort of signed document. If he would need to be confirmed by Congress or have a certain security clearance to have the powers he claims, that would also leave a paper trail. Lacking that documentation, he is trespassing on federal property and illegally accessing US government computer systems, which have historically been considered very serious crimes.
posted by eviemath at 12:33 PM on February 3 [11 favorites]
The illegality and the economic disruption aside this is a security disaster! All this data is going to show up on the dark web the second one of Musk's idiot minions wants some seed cash for his next half-assed crypto venture. That's assuming his team isn't already seeded with foreign agents, which is a big assumption to make. It's gotta be like Christmas morning in Beijing.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:35 PM on February 3 [10 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 12:35 PM on February 3 [10 favorites]
And by signed document, I mean something signed by Trump that clearly directs Musk and he team to do all of the specific (illegal) things they are doing.
Trump historically at least has been relatively careful about not directing people to do illegal things in ways that leave quite so clear a paper trail pointing back to him. Plus he is now in cognitive decline and I seriously doubt he has the attention span or interest to be involved at that level, so I would be quite surprise if Musk had such official authorization from Trump. He and his team of impressionable/not-bright kids/lackeys certainly don’t have Congressional authorization, nor security clearances.
posted by eviemath at 12:37 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Trump historically at least has been relatively careful about not directing people to do illegal things in ways that leave quite so clear a paper trail pointing back to him. Plus he is now in cognitive decline and I seriously doubt he has the attention span or interest to be involved at that level, so I would be quite surprise if Musk had such official authorization from Trump. He and his team of impressionable/not-bright kids/lackeys certainly don’t have Congressional authorization, nor security clearances.
posted by eviemath at 12:37 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Call or email your representatives and senators. DO NOT CONTACT OUTSIDE OF YOUR CONSTIUENCY. It doesn't do any good.
Script for Democratic Representatives/Senators:
I need you to hold the line, to sound the alarm to constituents of the authoritarian threat to our democracy & rule of law. Now is not the time for bipartisanship when the other party is in the process of an authoritarian power grab. I expect you to use every democratic means to slow and resist. Our nation is under attack from the inside out. We the people need you to keep Elon Musk's unauthorized personnel out of our nation's databases and fight their access to the Treasury. Our collective futures and lives are at stake. The information of the American people cannot be in the hands of unelected private citizens. Democrats MUST do the following to slow and stop the damage being done to our country. We cannot afford the Democratic party to be split.
1. Block Unanimous Consent: Object to every procedural shortcut, forcing Republicans to take the longest possible route for every step of the confirmation process.
2. Max Out Debate Time: Use all 30 hours of debate on Vought to expose Project 2025, Musk's Treasury takeover, and the funding freeze.
3. Delay and Disrupt: Force roll-call votes, quorum calls, and procedural delays to slow everything down.
4. Blanket Opposition: Democrats cannot continue to vote for Trump's other nominees, helping to install more MAGA loyalists into powerful positions in the federal government while this power grab continues.
5. No Business as Usual: This is a constitutional crisis. Democrats must abandon the old rules and fight with everything they have.
Script for Republican Representatives/Senators:
I need you to stand firm and defend the Constitution against the current attempts to undermine our democracy and the rule of law. This is not the time for compromise when our institutions are under threat. As a Republican, you have a sworn duty to protect the integrity of our government from unchecked influence and authoritarian overreach. Our nation is under attack from the inside. We the people need you to keep Elon Musk's unauthorized personnel out of our nation's databases and fight their access to the Treasury. Our collective futures and lives are at stake. The information of the American people cannot be in the hands of unelected private citizens. Now is the time for Republicans to act decisively and morally, using every lawful and democratic tool available to prevent this encroachment on our national security. Our collective future is on the line. Patriots must stand united in defense of our republic.
posted by cooker girl at 12:38 PM on February 3 [39 favorites]
Script for Democratic Representatives/Senators:
I need you to hold the line, to sound the alarm to constituents of the authoritarian threat to our democracy & rule of law. Now is not the time for bipartisanship when the other party is in the process of an authoritarian power grab. I expect you to use every democratic means to slow and resist. Our nation is under attack from the inside out. We the people need you to keep Elon Musk's unauthorized personnel out of our nation's databases and fight their access to the Treasury. Our collective futures and lives are at stake. The information of the American people cannot be in the hands of unelected private citizens. Democrats MUST do the following to slow and stop the damage being done to our country. We cannot afford the Democratic party to be split.
1. Block Unanimous Consent: Object to every procedural shortcut, forcing Republicans to take the longest possible route for every step of the confirmation process.
2. Max Out Debate Time: Use all 30 hours of debate on Vought to expose Project 2025, Musk's Treasury takeover, and the funding freeze.
3. Delay and Disrupt: Force roll-call votes, quorum calls, and procedural delays to slow everything down.
4. Blanket Opposition: Democrats cannot continue to vote for Trump's other nominees, helping to install more MAGA loyalists into powerful positions in the federal government while this power grab continues.
5. No Business as Usual: This is a constitutional crisis. Democrats must abandon the old rules and fight with everything they have.
Script for Republican Representatives/Senators:
I need you to stand firm and defend the Constitution against the current attempts to undermine our democracy and the rule of law. This is not the time for compromise when our institutions are under threat. As a Republican, you have a sworn duty to protect the integrity of our government from unchecked influence and authoritarian overreach. Our nation is under attack from the inside. We the people need you to keep Elon Musk's unauthorized personnel out of our nation's databases and fight their access to the Treasury. Our collective futures and lives are at stake. The information of the American people cannot be in the hands of unelected private citizens. Now is the time for Republicans to act decisively and morally, using every lawful and democratic tool available to prevent this encroachment on our national security. Our collective future is on the line. Patriots must stand united in defense of our republic.
posted by cooker girl at 12:38 PM on February 3 [39 favorites]
The rot really set in with Nixon and Regan. Democracy in name only.
As much as I would like to agree with that statement, there’s no way you can talk about the expansion of executive power without mentioning FDR. Whether the power should exist is one issue, what one does with it is another.
posted by atoxyl at 12:42 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
As much as I would like to agree with that statement, there’s no way you can talk about the expansion of executive power without mentioning FDR. Whether the power should exist is one issue, what one does with it is another.
posted by atoxyl at 12:42 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
As much as I would like to agree with that statement, there’s no way you can talk about the expansion of executive power without mentioning FDR.
Trump is trying to be Bizarro FDR. Completely transform the civil service, but make it worse instead of better.
posted by clawsoon at 12:44 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Trump is trying to be Bizarro FDR. Completely transform the civil service, but make it worse instead of better.
posted by clawsoon at 12:44 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
it's clear to me that we need to do away with the office of president - that's way too much power for one person to have
One option is to change the constitution to elect a member of Congress to serve as president. It would incentivize them to change it and populism and the electoral college would disappear. But other rules would need changing too, such as a new election every two years. It would also work to make voters take their representatives more seriously. As it stands, most low information voters treat the executive as a cult figure with imaginary power they never had, such as dictating prices.
posted by Brian B. at 1:10 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
One option is to change the constitution to elect a member of Congress to serve as president. It would incentivize them to change it and populism and the electoral college would disappear. But other rules would need changing too, such as a new election every two years. It would also work to make voters take their representatives more seriously. As it stands, most low information voters treat the executive as a cult figure with imaginary power they never had, such as dictating prices.
posted by Brian B. at 1:10 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
Living in a parliamentary democracy, unfortunately populism does not disappear.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:56 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 1:56 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
> warriorqueen: "Living in a parliamentary democracy, unfortunately populism does not disappear."
Indeed. In my experience, there appears to be a social norm (especially on the left but not entirely absent on the right) of not blaming voters for things but rather focusing ire on the politicians and/or the political system. However, in any kind of democratic system of governance that is designed to reflect/embody/enact/etc.. the populace's desires you can end up with a bunch of problems when the populace's desires just fucking suck. Of course, if you have a lot of anti-majoritarian structures in your government, the portion of the populace that sucks doesn't have to even be a majority to cause problems so govt structure is still relevant. But the deeper problem of having a populace that really wants (or at least passively tolerates) things that fucking suck is not likely to go away on its own.
posted by mhum at 2:16 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Indeed. In my experience, there appears to be a social norm (especially on the left but not entirely absent on the right) of not blaming voters for things but rather focusing ire on the politicians and/or the political system. However, in any kind of democratic system of governance that is designed to reflect/embody/enact/etc.. the populace's desires you can end up with a bunch of problems when the populace's desires just fucking suck. Of course, if you have a lot of anti-majoritarian structures in your government, the portion of the populace that sucks doesn't have to even be a majority to cause problems so govt structure is still relevant. But the deeper problem of having a populace that really wants (or at least passively tolerates) things that fucking suck is not likely to go away on its own.
posted by mhum at 2:16 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
My taxes are taken out every 2 weeks automatically.
I've toyed with the idea of filling out a new W-4 and changing my withholding to zero. Post-COVID you don't do exemptions anymore, just a number that you need to compute yourself. And you're free to set that to $0.00 if you want.
All it takes is some discipline to save the money in a safe place until it's filing time and, probably, expect to pay the underwithholding penalty if you earn too much.
Possible upside is if the IRS is completely abolished before October 15, 2026 then that money is in my hands and not theirs? I guess there will be larger things to worry about if that's the case...
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:18 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
I've toyed with the idea of filling out a new W-4 and changing my withholding to zero. Post-COVID you don't do exemptions anymore, just a number that you need to compute yourself. And you're free to set that to $0.00 if you want.
All it takes is some discipline to save the money in a safe place until it's filing time and, probably, expect to pay the underwithholding penalty if you earn too much.
Possible upside is if the IRS is completely abolished before October 15, 2026 then that money is in my hands and not theirs? I guess there will be larger things to worry about if that's the case...
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:18 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
WTF, DNC? Metaphorically, why aren't you tearing up the tracks to derail their trains to the concentration camps?
Deep down, I think you know the answer to that question.
posted by Lemkin at 2:20 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Deep down, I think you know the answer to that question.
posted by Lemkin at 2:20 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
I've toyed with the idea of filling out a new W-4 and changing my withholding to zero.
this sounds like an excellent idea for the average person to fight back ?
Like if people did it en masse
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:43 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
this sounds like an excellent idea for the average person to fight back ?
Like if people did it en masse
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:43 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Isn’t not paying taxes exactly what they (using they to mean all these fuckers) want? Disable the Government by any means necessary. “Well people stopped paying taxes so yeah they must support us stripping away services, we’ll just let companies run Social Security/Education/whatever now”
On the flip side with Musk and team in the payments network maybe if we pay our tax dollars it just goes to whoever he wants now?
People were surprised Afghanistan fell so quickly. Awful feeling US about to make a name for itself…..
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:00 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
On the flip side with Musk and team in the payments network maybe if we pay our tax dollars it just goes to whoever he wants now?
People were surprised Afghanistan fell so quickly. Awful feeling US about to make a name for itself…..
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:00 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Trump historically at least has been relatively careful about not directing people to do illegal things in ways that leave quite so clear a paper trail pointing back to him
Everything he does as President is legal.
posted by Lemkin at 3:01 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
Everything he does as President is legal.
posted by Lemkin at 3:01 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
something to keep in mind when venting spicily, 2020 election conspiracist and interim US attorney for DC Ed Martin wrote an open letter to Musk posturing about the “legal action” he’ll take “against anyone who … threatens your people”
(totally understand everyone's frustration ofc)
posted by Haere at 3:41 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
(totally understand everyone's frustration ofc)
posted by Haere at 3:41 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
If they fail to pay bond holders on time, it’s going to be chaos. I can see them accidentally screwing it up by breaking some process they don’t understand. “Full faith and credit” out the window
posted by Farce_First at 4:00 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
posted by Farce_First at 4:00 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
cooker girl, thank you for these scripts. I've been completely overwhelmed by all of this, and it's left me unable to find a way to express my desperate urgency. The words you supplied were so helpful (and inspired me to add some of my own).
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 4:06 PM on February 3 [7 favorites]
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 4:06 PM on February 3 [7 favorites]
(and inspired me to add some of my own).
stick your what in the what now??
posted by ginger.beef at 4:34 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
stick your what in the what now??
posted by ginger.beef at 4:34 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
Is it fair to say that Musk's investment in Trump's campaign is paying spectacular dividends?
posted by Lemkin at 4:40 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 4:40 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
An Open Letter to the Majority of Congressional Democrats
This famously mercurial and vindictive man has your banking information and your home address and the power to withhold your paycheck. Get. Him. Out.posted by Lemkin at 4:45 PM on February 3 [31 favorites]
Stop playing along with the pretense that DOGE is a real thing, or in any way official. If they want to be real and official, then Musk should have to glower and preen through confirmation hearings and must stop all activities until he does so. ...
Ask in every public format you can why a multibillionaire from a foreign nation has his hands on everyone’s banking information. Shout in front of every camera that you can get to that he has the power to stop people from getting their tax refunds, their social security, their Medicare. And then ask why Republicans want this.
As a Republican, you have a sworn duty to protect the integrity of our government from unchecked influence and authoritarian overreach.
Hahaha! Oh geez, tell me another one! That's a real kneeslapper.
posted by rikschell at 4:47 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Hahaha! Oh geez, tell me another one! That's a real kneeslapper.
posted by rikschell at 4:47 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
The idea that the taxes withheld from our paychecks are deposited into some government checking account which is used to send out payments to NGOs and contractors and senators salaries and other governmental things like that is a little bit naive.
posted by youthenrage at 5:29 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 5:29 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Everything he does as President is legal.
I'm just waiting for him to do even worse things that I would not be allowed to say here. Like a Hell Bingo card. I'm still in shock at that ruling.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:44 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
I'm just waiting for him to do even worse things that I would not be allowed to say here. Like a Hell Bingo card. I'm still in shock at that ruling.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:44 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
How US media would report on this if it were happening somewhere else.
"Over the last two weeks, loyalist presidential factions and Musk-backed teams have launched sweeping, illegal Stalin-esque purges of the national police forces and prosecutors, as well as offices known as inspectors-general, who are typically responsible for investigating government corruption.
The mentally declining and aging head of state, who has long embraced conspiracist thinking, spent much of the week railing in bizarre public remarks against the country’s oppressed racial and ethnic minorities."
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:57 PM on February 3 [16 favorites]
"Over the last two weeks, loyalist presidential factions and Musk-backed teams have launched sweeping, illegal Stalin-esque purges of the national police forces and prosecutors, as well as offices known as inspectors-general, who are typically responsible for investigating government corruption.
The mentally declining and aging head of state, who has long embraced conspiracist thinking, spent much of the week railing in bizarre public remarks against the country’s oppressed racial and ethnic minorities."
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:57 PM on February 3 [16 favorites]
I'm still in shock at that ruling
At the risk of being accused of doomerism, it really was kind of "game over" at that point.
posted by Lemkin at 6:05 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
At the risk of being accused of doomerism, it really was kind of "game over" at that point.
posted by Lemkin at 6:05 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Trump administration finalizing plans to shutter Education Department
An executive order — which President Donald Trump is expected to sign sometime this month — was expected to lay out a two-part strategy for shuttering the agency.
posted by lalochezia at 6:59 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Trump administration finalizing plans to shutter Education Department
That he’s installing Linda McMahon as the executioner is a chef’s kiss of trolling.
posted by Lemkin at 7:02 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
That he’s installing Linda McMahon as the executioner is a chef’s kiss of trolling.
posted by Lemkin at 7:02 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
While [USAID] does do charitable work it's also a cover for intelligence operations around the world. I'm fully convinced Musk and Trump knew absolutely nothing about this organization until an external influence, and I won't bother to guess who, told them it would be a good idea to shut it down.
Trump maybe, but Musk? Half of Musk's schtick is using money to buy influence to buy access to more money, and more of it is using money to buy image to buy influence.
USAID's open purpose is using money to shape geopolitics through humanitarian intervention and buying influence, and it does that, along with whatever happens underneath that image.
And the world's richest man who has used his wealth to buy his way into a position of public influence didn't understand that?
I mean, it's possible. Lots of stories are coming out suggesting a good deal of his domain competence is shallow, but this sounds a lot like his domain. I think chances are good he had a decent idea of why to focus here. Maybe even that what he'd like to do is simply end the US government's international influence as a competitor to his. And that his calumny avalanche on twitter is bald faced lying, one of his true skills.
posted by weston at 7:48 PM on February 3 [1 favorite]
Trump maybe, but Musk? Half of Musk's schtick is using money to buy influence to buy access to more money, and more of it is using money to buy image to buy influence.
USAID's open purpose is using money to shape geopolitics through humanitarian intervention and buying influence, and it does that, along with whatever happens underneath that image.
And the world's richest man who has used his wealth to buy his way into a position of public influence didn't understand that?
I mean, it's possible. Lots of stories are coming out suggesting a good deal of his domain competence is shallow, but this sounds a lot like his domain. I think chances are good he had a decent idea of why to focus here. Maybe even that what he'd like to do is simply end the US government's international influence as a competitor to his. And that his calumny avalanche on twitter is bald faced lying, one of his true skills.
posted by weston at 7:48 PM on February 3 [1 favorite]
From CNN’: El Salvador has agreed to receive deportees from the United States of any nationality, as well as violent criminals who are US citizens currently imprisoned,
MeFi meetup for this thread on the tarmac in San Salvador is going to be lit.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:51 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
MeFi meetup for this thread on the tarmac in San Salvador is going to be lit.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:51 PM on February 3 [6 favorites]
as well as violent criminals who are US citizens currently imprisoned
Wut. Wasn’t “transportation” deemed cruel and unusual punishment and prohibited quite a while ago now.
posted by eviemath at 7:56 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
Wut. Wasn’t “transportation” deemed cruel and unusual punishment and prohibited quite a while ago now.
posted by eviemath at 7:56 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
Elon Musk is a massive drug abuser who honestly seems very stupid. He's a stupid person's idea of a smart person. Like Trump, he benefitted from generational wealth and then blundered, Forrest Gump-like, into greater wealth and prominence. I do not think anything he is doing is anything other than what it looks like.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:02 PM on February 3 [14 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:02 PM on February 3 [14 favorites]
V2 formula:
1. Sow chaos.
2. Repay old promises, no matter how crazy.
3. Watch as economy tanks.
4. Buy assets at bargain prices.
5. Tra la la. Walk away, rich and scot free.
That's the only plausible explanation. The only fly in the ointment:
1. This affects a LOT of real people.
2. The world is much bigger than the U.S.
3. Instability makes people nervous.
4. Ultimately, those impacted may not like what is happening.
5. 🍿🍿🍿
posted by fubar at 8:06 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
1. Sow chaos.
2. Repay old promises, no matter how crazy.
3. Watch as economy tanks.
4. Buy assets at bargain prices.
5. Tra la la. Walk away, rich and scot free.
That's the only plausible explanation. The only fly in the ointment:
1. This affects a LOT of real people.
2. The world is much bigger than the U.S.
3. Instability makes people nervous.
4. Ultimately, those impacted may not like what is happening.
5. 🍿🍿🍿
posted by fubar at 8:06 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Thanks, cooker girl. I used shortened versions of your script to call all my members of Congress.
posted by NotLost at 8:13 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
posted by NotLost at 8:13 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
This famously mercurial and vindictive man has your banking information and your home address and the power to withhold your paycheck. Get. Him. Out.
If you have ever been a federal employee, or have applied for a federal job, you should open a secondary checking account now.
Because right at the moment, all of your personal information, including many identifiers that can be used to search by things Nazis hate, can be searched by AI from the commercial server it has been moved to, then cross referenced with your tax refunds to find your banking information.
Which means if they ever want to fuck you, they know exactly which bank to issue a freeze order to.
Don’t let them.
posted by corb at 10:36 PM on February 3 [12 favorites]
If you have ever been a federal employee, or have applied for a federal job, you should open a secondary checking account now.
Because right at the moment, all of your personal information, including many identifiers that can be used to search by things Nazis hate, can be searched by AI from the commercial server it has been moved to, then cross referenced with your tax refunds to find your banking information.
Which means if they ever want to fuck you, they know exactly which bank to issue a freeze order to.
Don’t let them.
posted by corb at 10:36 PM on February 3 [12 favorites]
the more I track this thread and a few others, the more I find myself thinking, yeah, China are going to win this one.
Decline of the West and all that.
publication date: 1918 (Vol.I);
posted by philip-random at 11:04 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Decline of the West and all that.
publication date: 1918 (Vol.I);
posted by philip-random at 11:04 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Which means if they ever want to fuck you, they know exactly which bank to issue a freeze order to.
This is the monster under the bed, the genuine moment of disaster, the redux to the Nat.Soc's stealing the money of anyone they wanted to steal from. The thing that lit my hair on fire.
It's good that Sen. Warren spoke out against Musk and all he's doing and I agree with every single word - but it seems what is really needed is direct, physical action to safeguard the Gov. And I would humble suggest ignoring the law for a moment, doing what needs to be done, (physically dislodging these saboteurs) and then letting it all be fought out in the courts.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:17 AM on February 4 [12 favorites]
This is the monster under the bed, the genuine moment of disaster, the redux to the Nat.Soc's stealing the money of anyone they wanted to steal from. The thing that lit my hair on fire.
It's good that Sen. Warren spoke out against Musk and all he's doing and I agree with every single word - but it seems what is really needed is direct, physical action to safeguard the Gov. And I would humble suggest ignoring the law for a moment, doing what needs to be done, (physically dislodging these saboteurs) and then letting it all be fought out in the courts.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:17 AM on February 4 [12 favorites]
Let me also say, if you have money in the banks, it is not as easy to pull out quickly as you think it is. Alll withdrawals of 10k in one day must be reported, but your bank may not have 9K on hand to give you if you don’t schedule it a few days in advance. If you have such savings, it’s not a bad idea to schedule such a withdrawal now: you will not be able to once things get worse.
posted by corb at 4:30 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by corb at 4:30 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
As a Canadian, I don't have my head wrapped all the way around the American system.
Am I correct to assume that Musk has no constitutional authority to do any of this?
But maybe also that no one has the constitutional authority to immediately stop him other than Trump?
Since FDR, the American presidency has accumulated more and more power both directly and through grey areas of executive discretion while simultaneously establishing:
1) Many executive orders governing how that power, in practice should be used
2) A lot of precedent about what the president actually should and should not do with that power
What that means, and see also what clawsoon posted above about other strong presidential systems, is that the restrictions on executive discretionary power are in some areas less legally ironclad than the actual behaviour of previous administrations have made us think.
Trump's people and a wing of the existing Republican party (see also Dick Cheney) are adherents to something called the Unitary Executive Theory. Under that legal theory, everyone in the executive branch is an employee of the president who, yes still has to faithfully execute the laws made by Congress, but otherwise has enormous latitude in how they do that. So if congress has legislated for certain money to be spent on certain programs, that still has to happen but if the president wants to fire all of USAID and have State do that activity instead, maybe that's legal? It's almost certainly not a good idea, but that is rather another matter.
They would still have to spend the money which Congress appropriated, not doing so is called impoundment and the fact that there is an anti-impoundment act should tell you Congress' historical position on that, but note that the Federalist Society has had the Impoundment Act on its hit list for quite a while now, so expect them to be on the lookout for a case to take that to the Supreme Court. This is also why they've just announced that they're "pausing" the spending, they're trying to create a legal grey area for themselves in which to operate without violating the anti-impoundment act.
The challenge here is that USAID was established based on Congress mandating the establishment of an agency to carry out this work, followed by an executive order that actually created the agency. So their argument is that the State department is now that agency and the Secretary of State is the one accountable for this activity. You'll note that for the Department of Education which is next in their target list, they cannot unilaterally disestablish it because it was directly created by an act of Congress. They can of course use their discretion over policy to massively reduce what it does, make it so unpleasant to work for that many of the staff leave, and essentially piranha strip it down to carry out the bare minimum of tasks which Congress requires it to do while simultaneously working with their allies in Congress to actually disestablish the department.
Musk and his people have been slotted into the OMB, though not of course following the heretofore normal appointment processes and their authority derives from "the president, our boss, told me to do this" which under the Unitary Executive theory does mean they have the power to do this.
I frankly have no idea what of this stuff is actually legal but I suspect that before it goes to the Supreme Court, the legality of at least some of it is actually ambiguous and the boundaries between legal and illegal are open to interpretation. Certainly if the legislative branch doesn't act to make it clear through its powers that it feels it is being usurped, that is going to make it more challenging. I think they're just trying to push as much through as they can and create a general sense of paralysis among their enemies so that by the time anybody does organise any attempt to stop them, they're already done and good luck winding it back at that point.
In British political theory, where there isn't a written constitution, there is an idea called the "Good Chaps Theory" which is that, yes, technically the grey areas in the law might give the prime minister enormous powers to subvert the constitutional "understanding" of what is and is not within their powers, but historically everyone has just agreed that Good Chaps wouldn't do that sort of thing.
Indeed, until Boris Johnson that has absolutely held. No previous government, however far they were to the right or left of previous established practice has done things which were clearly outside the unwritten constitutional tradition but in a statute-law grey area.
The criticism of this is pretty obvious - get the Wrong Chaps in, and there is almost no limit to their power. The counter to that challenge though has always been a pragmatic one - in all modern governments there is a small group of people at the top who have de jure powers that exceed their socially and traditionally accepted ones and who could, if they wanted to, push the limits (and through the limits) of what they are "legally" permitted to do. In other words, a written constitution doesn't help either. That's what we're now seeing in the US and really all systems have some form of vulnerability to putting in people who just don't respect the rules of the system. It's also why historically German political parties have been so paranoid about having anything to do with parties which do not consider themselves bound by the concepts of limited government, they are well aware that an executive who really wants to, especially if they have just won an election victory can do a lot more than they are allowed to do and that this is a threat to democracy.
Correct. Not just "no constitutional authority" but no clearance. He is not an employee of the federal government so far as anyone can tell.
In general, security clearances and classification of data in the US are cascaded down from the president. In other words, all the steps in getting a security clearance are procedural, because obviously the president can't just personally issue everyone an appropriate clearance and decide how certain information should be classified so there are a set of executive orders that set out how the system works. I think nuclear weapons classification is slightly different in that the secrecy of that material is set out in law by congress.
That does mean that Donald Trump can just decide that Elon Musk and his Merry Men do in fact have clearance, even if they would never ordinarily be able to get it.
posted by atrazine at 4:35 AM on February 4 [16 favorites]
Am I correct to assume that Musk has no constitutional authority to do any of this?
But maybe also that no one has the constitutional authority to immediately stop him other than Trump?
Since FDR, the American presidency has accumulated more and more power both directly and through grey areas of executive discretion while simultaneously establishing:
1) Many executive orders governing how that power, in practice should be used
2) A lot of precedent about what the president actually should and should not do with that power
What that means, and see also what clawsoon posted above about other strong presidential systems, is that the restrictions on executive discretionary power are in some areas less legally ironclad than the actual behaviour of previous administrations have made us think.
Trump's people and a wing of the existing Republican party (see also Dick Cheney) are adherents to something called the Unitary Executive Theory. Under that legal theory, everyone in the executive branch is an employee of the president who, yes still has to faithfully execute the laws made by Congress, but otherwise has enormous latitude in how they do that. So if congress has legislated for certain money to be spent on certain programs, that still has to happen but if the president wants to fire all of USAID and have State do that activity instead, maybe that's legal? It's almost certainly not a good idea, but that is rather another matter.
They would still have to spend the money which Congress appropriated, not doing so is called impoundment and the fact that there is an anti-impoundment act should tell you Congress' historical position on that, but note that the Federalist Society has had the Impoundment Act on its hit list for quite a while now, so expect them to be on the lookout for a case to take that to the Supreme Court. This is also why they've just announced that they're "pausing" the spending, they're trying to create a legal grey area for themselves in which to operate without violating the anti-impoundment act.
The challenge here is that USAID was established based on Congress mandating the establishment of an agency to carry out this work, followed by an executive order that actually created the agency. So their argument is that the State department is now that agency and the Secretary of State is the one accountable for this activity. You'll note that for the Department of Education which is next in their target list, they cannot unilaterally disestablish it because it was directly created by an act of Congress. They can of course use their discretion over policy to massively reduce what it does, make it so unpleasant to work for that many of the staff leave, and essentially piranha strip it down to carry out the bare minimum of tasks which Congress requires it to do while simultaneously working with their allies in Congress to actually disestablish the department.
Musk and his people have been slotted into the OMB, though not of course following the heretofore normal appointment processes and their authority derives from "the president, our boss, told me to do this" which under the Unitary Executive theory does mean they have the power to do this.
I frankly have no idea what of this stuff is actually legal but I suspect that before it goes to the Supreme Court, the legality of at least some of it is actually ambiguous and the boundaries between legal and illegal are open to interpretation. Certainly if the legislative branch doesn't act to make it clear through its powers that it feels it is being usurped, that is going to make it more challenging. I think they're just trying to push as much through as they can and create a general sense of paralysis among their enemies so that by the time anybody does organise any attempt to stop them, they're already done and good luck winding it back at that point.
In British political theory, where there isn't a written constitution, there is an idea called the "Good Chaps Theory" which is that, yes, technically the grey areas in the law might give the prime minister enormous powers to subvert the constitutional "understanding" of what is and is not within their powers, but historically everyone has just agreed that Good Chaps wouldn't do that sort of thing.
Indeed, until Boris Johnson that has absolutely held. No previous government, however far they were to the right or left of previous established practice has done things which were clearly outside the unwritten constitutional tradition but in a statute-law grey area.
The criticism of this is pretty obvious - get the Wrong Chaps in, and there is almost no limit to their power. The counter to that challenge though has always been a pragmatic one - in all modern governments there is a small group of people at the top who have de jure powers that exceed their socially and traditionally accepted ones and who could, if they wanted to, push the limits (and through the limits) of what they are "legally" permitted to do. In other words, a written constitution doesn't help either. That's what we're now seeing in the US and really all systems have some form of vulnerability to putting in people who just don't respect the rules of the system. It's also why historically German political parties have been so paranoid about having anything to do with parties which do not consider themselves bound by the concepts of limited government, they are well aware that an executive who really wants to, especially if they have just won an election victory can do a lot more than they are allowed to do and that this is a threat to democracy.
Correct. Not just "no constitutional authority" but no clearance. He is not an employee of the federal government so far as anyone can tell.
In general, security clearances and classification of data in the US are cascaded down from the president. In other words, all the steps in getting a security clearance are procedural, because obviously the president can't just personally issue everyone an appropriate clearance and decide how certain information should be classified so there are a set of executive orders that set out how the system works. I think nuclear weapons classification is slightly different in that the secrecy of that material is set out in law by congress.
That does mean that Donald Trump can just decide that Elon Musk and his Merry Men do in fact have clearance, even if they would never ordinarily be able to get it.
posted by atrazine at 4:35 AM on February 4 [16 favorites]
I'm fully convinced Musk and Trump knew absolutely nothing about this organization
I got bad news about Musk - USAID played a role in battling South African apartheid and largely did so at arm's length from the executive branch.
I've no doubt Elon holds USAID responsible for ending his glorious childhood white supremacist homeland.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:06 AM on February 4 [7 favorites]
I got bad news about Musk - USAID played a role in battling South African apartheid and largely did so at arm's length from the executive branch.
I've no doubt Elon holds USAID responsible for ending his glorious childhood white supremacist homeland.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:06 AM on February 4 [7 favorites]
That does mean that Donald Trump can just decide that Elon Musk and his Merry Men do in fact have clearance,
Does it, though? Because there is a clearance process that, even if elided, is still meant to capture whether the person who has sought a clearance can have one safely. Musk is a deeply compromised individual who any sane investigatory body would almost certainly conclude is a security risk. If he's not beholden to a hostile foreign power, he's sure acting like it. Or he may simply be acting like someone whose mind has been destroyed by chronic drug abuse, for which a strong case can also be made.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:07 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
Does it, though? Because there is a clearance process that, even if elided, is still meant to capture whether the person who has sought a clearance can have one safely. Musk is a deeply compromised individual who any sane investigatory body would almost certainly conclude is a security risk. If he's not beholden to a hostile foreign power, he's sure acting like it. Or he may simply be acting like someone whose mind has been destroyed by chronic drug abuse, for which a strong case can also be made.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:07 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
yes, it does. do you not remember Jared Kushner and his security clearance?
posted by nofundy at 5:11 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by nofundy at 5:11 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
Eh, fair enough. Man, this is all kind of a joke, isn't it?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:13 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:13 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Clusterfuck or omnishambles more like. To be a joke, it would need to be funny.
posted by flabdablet at 5:32 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 5:32 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
Musk and his people have been slotted into the OMB, though not of course following the heretofore normal appointment processes and their authority derives from "the president, our boss, told me to do this" which under the Unitary Executive theory does mean they have the power to do this.
yes, it does. do you not remember Jared Kushner and his security clearance?
There still needs to be a paper trail - actual documents that Musk’s wrecking crew can produce. And I haven’t heard that such documents exist. Until then, what they are doing is very clearly highly illegal. (What is less clear is who has the power to enforce the law, who is not hopelessly compromised.)
posted by eviemath at 5:35 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
yes, it does. do you not remember Jared Kushner and his security clearance?
There still needs to be a paper trail - actual documents that Musk’s wrecking crew can produce. And I haven’t heard that such documents exist. Until then, what they are doing is very clearly highly illegal. (What is less clear is who has the power to enforce the law, who is not hopelessly compromised.)
posted by eviemath at 5:35 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
I've no doubt Elon holds USAID responsible for ending his glorious childhood white supremacist homeland.
Canada?
More seriously though, almost the only nice thing I've ever thought about Elon Musk is how clearly his hatred for the nasty, bullying culture of Afrikaners (to which, as a weedy, indoorsy, Anglo in Apartheid era South Africa he was exposed at school) puts him on the right side of at least one thing in his life.
Not that he doesn't seem to have deeply weird ideas about race and politics himself, but I think assuming that a non-Afrikaner second generation immigrant to SA would have particularly fond memories of his "homeland" is to misunderstand what it would have been like to grow up in 1980s and 1990s South Africa. The things he says about contemporary South Africa are things that right wing racist guys in the US (which is what he is) say, and don't really seem to indicate any remaining link to actual right wing South African white supremacy which is anyway conducted in a language he barely ever spoke.
I think it's a bit weird for Americans to try to somehow displace responsibility for someone who lived his entire adult life there by his choice on the basis that he was born somewhere else. Like, he couldn't possibly be racist as an American?
If you look at the crazy things he says about USAID, it's the kind of things that ultra-conservative Americans say and it's pretty clear he's being fed these things through right wing American twitter. If you have exposure to this stuff the lineage is pretty clear because he'll pop up with language or issues that seem wildly obscure except that they have been fermenting wildly in some strange incestuous right wing circles and then "suddenly" Elon Musk cares about them.
posted by atrazine at 5:43 AM on February 4 [12 favorites]
Canada?
More seriously though, almost the only nice thing I've ever thought about Elon Musk is how clearly his hatred for the nasty, bullying culture of Afrikaners (to which, as a weedy, indoorsy, Anglo in Apartheid era South Africa he was exposed at school) puts him on the right side of at least one thing in his life.
Not that he doesn't seem to have deeply weird ideas about race and politics himself, but I think assuming that a non-Afrikaner second generation immigrant to SA would have particularly fond memories of his "homeland" is to misunderstand what it would have been like to grow up in 1980s and 1990s South Africa. The things he says about contemporary South Africa are things that right wing racist guys in the US (which is what he is) say, and don't really seem to indicate any remaining link to actual right wing South African white supremacy which is anyway conducted in a language he barely ever spoke.
I think it's a bit weird for Americans to try to somehow displace responsibility for someone who lived his entire adult life there by his choice on the basis that he was born somewhere else. Like, he couldn't possibly be racist as an American?
If you look at the crazy things he says about USAID, it's the kind of things that ultra-conservative Americans say and it's pretty clear he's being fed these things through right wing American twitter. If you have exposure to this stuff the lineage is pretty clear because he'll pop up with language or issues that seem wildly obscure except that they have been fermenting wildly in some strange incestuous right wing circles and then "suddenly" Elon Musk cares about them.
posted by atrazine at 5:43 AM on February 4 [12 favorites]
There still needs to be a paper trail - actual documents that Musk’s wrecking crew can produce.
There are two questions here:
1) Is what they are doing illegal? In the sense that they are breaking the law?
2) Have they got the authority to tell other government employees to help them, give them data? In other words, are those employees breaking the law or not fulfilling their job responsibilities by not doing what Musk et al have asked them to do?
Obviously all of this is insanely irregular but an executive order (all of the non-nuclear-weapons related American security clearance apparatus was established through executive orders) isn't a document that's defined in the constitution, it's just a paper documenting "the President definitely gave these instructions". I'm not sure legally that it has any more legal status than "The President asked me to do this verbally and gave me this clearance".
So if Trump has told them that they are cleared and asked them to do this, I don't see that it is illegal in the first sense.
In the second sense, it would make sense for another government employee, faced with a Very Strange group of men attempting to enter the building and have access to the data to want formal documentation and not just accept the word of what appears to be an E-sports team that the "the president told me to access the data on the servers". So in that sense without a written instruction, they're obviously right to refuse access. However the instruction itself is still a legal one, I think they are required to give the guy dressed like a Twitch streamer the secret database codes as soon as they are able to verify that yes, the Big Man did want that done.
Obviously this is an insane way to run a government and why we rightly expect that instructions from the executive are cascaded down through a set of approved channels, written down, and following a sensible set of procedures. The whole system just isn't designed for someone that doesn't care about procedural rules or established conventions at all because the statute law restrictions such as they are assume that the chief executive and their top team are all fully sane and bought in to the existing way of doing things.
I also think that these guys are taking on insane legal exposure and guess what, if it goes wrong Donny is going pin the whole shebang on them. They can get pardons but come on, this shitshow is going to be pinned on them professionally and unlike multi-billionaire Elon Musk that should matter to them. At least one of these people is someone who has an immensely impressive achievement already (heavily involved with deciphering Vesuvius scrolls) and when / if this goes completely wrong and someone "accidentally" leaves a hard drive full of highly classified data in the Russian Embassy lobby it's going to be pinned on of them and they can spend the rest of their lives as professional fuck-ups and history book footnotes.
posted by atrazine at 6:01 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
There are two questions here:
1) Is what they are doing illegal? In the sense that they are breaking the law?
2) Have they got the authority to tell other government employees to help them, give them data? In other words, are those employees breaking the law or not fulfilling their job responsibilities by not doing what Musk et al have asked them to do?
Obviously all of this is insanely irregular but an executive order (all of the non-nuclear-weapons related American security clearance apparatus was established through executive orders) isn't a document that's defined in the constitution, it's just a paper documenting "the President definitely gave these instructions". I'm not sure legally that it has any more legal status than "The President asked me to do this verbally and gave me this clearance".
So if Trump has told them that they are cleared and asked them to do this, I don't see that it is illegal in the first sense.
In the second sense, it would make sense for another government employee, faced with a Very Strange group of men attempting to enter the building and have access to the data to want formal documentation and not just accept the word of what appears to be an E-sports team that the "the president told me to access the data on the servers". So in that sense without a written instruction, they're obviously right to refuse access. However the instruction itself is still a legal one, I think they are required to give the guy dressed like a Twitch streamer the secret database codes as soon as they are able to verify that yes, the Big Man did want that done.
Obviously this is an insane way to run a government and why we rightly expect that instructions from the executive are cascaded down through a set of approved channels, written down, and following a sensible set of procedures. The whole system just isn't designed for someone that doesn't care about procedural rules or established conventions at all because the statute law restrictions such as they are assume that the chief executive and their top team are all fully sane and bought in to the existing way of doing things.
I also think that these guys are taking on insane legal exposure and guess what, if it goes wrong Donny is going pin the whole shebang on them. They can get pardons but come on, this shitshow is going to be pinned on them professionally and unlike multi-billionaire Elon Musk that should matter to them. At least one of these people is someone who has an immensely impressive achievement already (heavily involved with deciphering Vesuvius scrolls) and when / if this goes completely wrong and someone "accidentally" leaves a hard drive full of highly classified data in the Russian Embassy lobby it's going to be pinned on of them and they can spend the rest of their lives as professional fuck-ups and history book footnotes.
posted by atrazine at 6:01 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
The thing that really bothers me here is that even if Trump doesn't succeed in destroying democracy and we really do get to elect a Democratic President in 2028 the damage is going to be so vast it can't be undone in a mere four years.
Well. No. The thing that REALLY bothers me is that even if we do win in 2028 no one will ever be penalized for any of this. Just like Junior's torture regime, we'll "look forward, not back". The people who went on a rampage and demolished so much of our structure of state will walk away free and clear, Musk will still get to keep his billions, the other billionaires will still get to keep thier billions, Trump et al will walk free until the day they die of natural causes, and the forces of evil will remember that they got away with it and will do it again.
This looks like an exestential crisis, and the Democrats are just calmly playing along like it's normal. Hell, they approved Trump's climate change denier of an Agriculture Secretary out of committee unanamously without a single Democrat voting no either due to this or due to him being manifestly unqualified.
They confirmed Marco Rubio unanamously.
Schumer hasn't even withdrawn unanamous consent to bring the Senate to a halt until the destruction stops.
We're barely three weeks in, and Trump has done more damage than he managed in his entire 4 years of Presidency before now. What will we have left in four years?
Even if all the funding is restored in 2028 no one will trust that they can be career Federal workers anymore, so the quality of applicants and tone of the work will suffer at a time when what would be needed is frantic energy to rebuild.
And then? In 2032 we'll get another Republican to do it again because the Democrats won't take the steps needed to keep the President from being a king.
posted by sotonohito at 7:05 AM on February 4 [12 favorites]
Well. No. The thing that REALLY bothers me is that even if we do win in 2028 no one will ever be penalized for any of this. Just like Junior's torture regime, we'll "look forward, not back". The people who went on a rampage and demolished so much of our structure of state will walk away free and clear, Musk will still get to keep his billions, the other billionaires will still get to keep thier billions, Trump et al will walk free until the day they die of natural causes, and the forces of evil will remember that they got away with it and will do it again.
This looks like an exestential crisis, and the Democrats are just calmly playing along like it's normal. Hell, they approved Trump's climate change denier of an Agriculture Secretary out of committee unanamously without a single Democrat voting no either due to this or due to him being manifestly unqualified.
They confirmed Marco Rubio unanamously.
Schumer hasn't even withdrawn unanamous consent to bring the Senate to a halt until the destruction stops.
We're barely three weeks in, and Trump has done more damage than he managed in his entire 4 years of Presidency before now. What will we have left in four years?
Even if all the funding is restored in 2028 no one will trust that they can be career Federal workers anymore, so the quality of applicants and tone of the work will suffer at a time when what would be needed is frantic energy to rebuild.
And then? In 2032 we'll get another Republican to do it again because the Democrats won't take the steps needed to keep the President from being a king.
posted by sotonohito at 7:05 AM on February 4 [12 favorites]
You want Democrats in the Senate to shut down the federal government to save the federal government?
I don't know. I think griding things to a halt is kinda what Trump wants.
As for letting people go unpunished... Well, there's always been this tension between justice and peace. For most ordinary people, peace is better than justice, most of the time. That's why most people don't get involved in activism. They're choosing peace.
(Peaceful protest movements can help people believe it's possible to have both, but are, in themselves, a hard balancing act.)
I think Democrats in the Senate and in Congress need to focus on preserving what they can of our government, when they are on duty.
In their off hours they can and should join us at protests. But it's on us to plan and lead them. Resistance movements need to be popular movements, not actions by a political elite, if they are to be effective at all.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:35 AM on February 4 [3 favorites]
I don't know. I think griding things to a halt is kinda what Trump wants.
As for letting people go unpunished... Well, there's always been this tension between justice and peace. For most ordinary people, peace is better than justice, most of the time. That's why most people don't get involved in activism. They're choosing peace.
(Peaceful protest movements can help people believe it's possible to have both, but are, in themselves, a hard balancing act.)
I think Democrats in the Senate and in Congress need to focus on preserving what they can of our government, when they are on duty.
In their off hours they can and should join us at protests. But it's on us to plan and lead them. Resistance movements need to be popular movements, not actions by a political elite, if they are to be effective at all.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:35 AM on February 4 [3 favorites]
I think they are required to give the guy dressed like a Twitch streamer the secret database codes as soon as they are able to verify that yes, the Big Man did want that done.
Nope. That’s…not how clearance works, and that’s not how the law works.
The question is whether they are legally obligated to destroy the database once it becomes clear that people without correct access are probably going to gain unauthorized access or not.
I have worked at places where I would be authorized and expected to *smash it with a sledgehammer* even if I were one hundred percent certain that the President himself very much wanted these two untrustworthy guys to have access.
posted by corb at 8:31 AM on February 4 [10 favorites]
Nope. That’s…not how clearance works, and that’s not how the law works.
The question is whether they are legally obligated to destroy the database once it becomes clear that people without correct access are probably going to gain unauthorized access or not.
I have worked at places where I would be authorized and expected to *smash it with a sledgehammer* even if I were one hundred percent certain that the President himself very much wanted these two untrustworthy guys to have access.
posted by corb at 8:31 AM on February 4 [10 favorites]
Nope. That’s…not how clearance works, and that’s not how the law works.
Well I'm not an expert, this is my recollection of the last time this guy was in charge and he just gave people clearances because he felt like it and there was nothing that could be done administratively or legally because the whole system rests on the president's legal authority to grant clearances.
I remember being surprised by it at the time because in the country where I have held a security clearance that is not the case, if you don't pass the vetting process there is nobody who can over-ride.
Perhaps I'm mistaken and it isn't within his discretion.
posted by atrazine at 9:16 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
Well I'm not an expert, this is my recollection of the last time this guy was in charge and he just gave people clearances because he felt like it and there was nothing that could be done administratively or legally because the whole system rests on the president's legal authority to grant clearances.
I remember being surprised by it at the time because in the country where I have held a security clearance that is not the case, if you don't pass the vetting process there is nobody who can over-ride.
Perhaps I'm mistaken and it isn't within his discretion.
posted by atrazine at 9:16 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
Biden rejoins Hollywood agency that also represents Obamas
Thanks for nothing Biden.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:36 AM on February 4 [6 favorites]
Thanks for nothing Biden.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:36 AM on February 4 [6 favorites]
I didn't think I'd live through the Great Depression and World War II(I), but here we are, I guess.
Meanwhile Elon has gotten WhitePeopleTwitter on Reddit shut down for people making threats/doxing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:37 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile Elon has gotten WhitePeopleTwitter on Reddit shut down for people making threats/doxing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:37 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Top guy says whatever, geeze, what a way to run a country.
Meanwhile in Canada, even the Leader of the Opposition must go through the security clearance process. He is refusing to do so for super vague and questionable reasons.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:41 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile in Canada, even the Leader of the Opposition must go through the security clearance process. He is refusing to do so for super vague and questionable reasons.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:41 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
That's true, but note that in Canada the PM and other cabinet ministers also do not have to go through the security clearance process legally, although the security services may be asked to provide an opinion confidentially to the PM on potential cabinet picks, the PM himself is not security vetted in that way.
In The Netherlands, all cabinet ministers including the PM are required to be vetted and it has caused problems with some of our more quixotic politicians. Our cabinet ministers are also not necessarily selected from among elected politicians either so some of them have no public profile before being put forward for vetting. Indeed our current prime minister while this isn't a normal state of affairs for us has never held an elected office and was picked as a compromise to run the government because no coalition would support the leader of the largest party as PM.
posted by atrazine at 10:44 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
In The Netherlands, all cabinet ministers including the PM are required to be vetted and it has caused problems with some of our more quixotic politicians. Our cabinet ministers are also not necessarily selected from among elected politicians either so some of them have no public profile before being put forward for vetting. Indeed our current prime minister while this isn't a normal state of affairs for us has never held an elected office and was picked as a compromise to run the government because no coalition would support the leader of the largest party as PM.
posted by atrazine at 10:44 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
then an outside teenager in a different agency, using an illegal email server, tells all of us “low productivity” workers we can get an 8 month paid vacation?
Government workers don't make anyone any profit, so the vulture capitalists hate them.
posted by Gelatin at 10:53 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Government workers don't make anyone any profit, so the vulture capitalists hate them.
posted by Gelatin at 10:53 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
there was nothing that could be done administratively or legally because the whole system rests on the president's legal authority to grant clearances.
It's incredibly complicated. Here's a fun law review article!
Law on security clearances:
It's incredibly complicated. Here's a fun law review article!
There was a reasonable basis, Justice Blackmun said, to conclude that an agency head “must bear the responsibility for the protection of classified information committed to his custody” and that individual “should have the final say in deciding whether to repose his trust in an employee who has access to this information.” Justice Blackmun referred to the Court’s decision in Haig v. Agee (1981) that recognized “the generally accepted view that foreign policy was the province and responsibility of the Executive.” From United States v. Nixon (1974): “As to these areas of Art. II duties the courts have traditionally shown the utmost deference to Presidential responsibilities.” The words “generally accepted” and “utmost deference” fall short of endorsing plenary presidential power.And remember again, the president has the most power where Congress has invited him to act in accordance with what he's doing, middling power where Congress has been silent (zone of twilight) and the least power where Congress has acted against him. In this case, Congress has codified the process of security clearances by statute into law:
Law on security clearances:
ensure that security clearance investigations are conducted in accordance with uniform standards and requirements established under subsection (b), including uniform security questionnaires and financial disclosure requirements.posted by corb at 10:56 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
So basically, my read is that the President can initiate the process for security clearance for anyone, but the clearance officers are actually not only allowed but legally obligated to refuse if they believe the person involved is a threat to the United States. The interpretations everyone is leaning on were what to do when the President thought someone was a *threat* to the United States, not the President jumping someone up to immediate clearance, because it has never been done before in the history of the United States.
posted by corb at 10:58 AM on February 4 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:58 AM on February 4 [6 favorites]
Biden rejoins Hollywood agency that also represents Obamas
This guy… he’s not my kind of guy.
posted by Lemkin at 11:01 AM on February 4
This guy… he’s not my kind of guy.
posted by Lemkin at 11:01 AM on February 4
Could we please can the Biden derail? Thanks.
posted by sundrop at 11:02 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
posted by sundrop at 11:02 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
Mod note: Hi all, reminder to not derail this thread with Biden commentary. Let’s try to keep the thread focused.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 11:11 AM on February 4 [3 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 11:11 AM on February 4 [3 favorites]
At least historically, the US would share classified information with "captains of industry" who lacked a security clearance, but those cases would be like discussing classified plans that directly involve SpaceX or Starlink or Tesla with Musk. You cannot make someone sign anything when you're asking favors.
We're discussing the opposite situation: Musk has redeemed election favors to Trump, in order to voluntarily act as a department head. Musk should go through the process, unless Trump wants to personally micro-manage Musk.
As the system evolved over time, some more recent examples:
Eric Schmidt has a securitry clearance at Google, but Eric Schmidt is an employee of Google, not its founder & semi-dominant owner.
Jeff Bezos turnned down joining Obama's Defense Innovation Board, in part because they wanted security clearances, but maybe mostly because he had more important things to do. Interestingly, the Pentagon refused to answer if all members have security clearances, so maybe not all do, but maybe they do not tell everyone the same things either.
Around that, Bezos made Elaine Barker an executive at Amazon. At the NSA & NIST, she pushed the NSA's Dual EC DRBG backdoor, which afaik likely makes her responcible for the OPM hack where all the SF86s were exfiltrated by China (previously). lol
Also, nationally elected officials have earned some immunity to the security clearance system, but afaik elected officials still need-to-know. It'd depends somewhat of course.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:28 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
We're discussing the opposite situation: Musk has redeemed election favors to Trump, in order to voluntarily act as a department head. Musk should go through the process, unless Trump wants to personally micro-manage Musk.
As the system evolved over time, some more recent examples:
Eric Schmidt has a securitry clearance at Google, but Eric Schmidt is an employee of Google, not its founder & semi-dominant owner.
Jeff Bezos turnned down joining Obama's Defense Innovation Board, in part because they wanted security clearances, but maybe mostly because he had more important things to do. Interestingly, the Pentagon refused to answer if all members have security clearances, so maybe not all do, but maybe they do not tell everyone the same things either.
Around that, Bezos made Elaine Barker an executive at Amazon. At the NSA & NIST, she pushed the NSA's Dual EC DRBG backdoor, which afaik likely makes her responcible for the OPM hack where all the SF86s were exfiltrated by China (previously). lol
Also, nationally elected officials have earned some immunity to the security clearance system, but afaik elected officials still need-to-know. It'd depends somewhat of course.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:28 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
From Wired, 2025/02/04, "A 25-Year-Old With Elon Musk Ties Has Direct Access to the Federal Payment System" (archive.is link):
posted by mhum at 11:40 AM on February 4 [8 favorites]
A 25-year-old engineer named Marko Elez, who previously worked for two Elon Musk companies, has direct access to Treasury Department systems responsible for nearly all payments made by the US government, three sources tell WIRED.There's this current that runs through conservative anti-DEI sentiment that goes something like "now we can finally hire actually qualified candidates on their merits" or similar. But if you actually look at who conservatives put in charge of things, you realize how stupid their ideas of who is qualified or deserving are. RFK Jr.? Pete Hegseth? Marco Rubio? Bffr. And of course, these former Musk interns/loyalists. It is tempting to attribute this specifically to Trump or Trumpism, but I would like to remind everyone of the parade of flunkies and know-nothing dipshits that George W. sent to reconstruct Iraq (e.g.: "How a 24-year-old Got a Job Rebuilding Iraq's Stock Market" (WSJ) (archive.is link)). And lest you think this is a problem unique to American conservatism, I'd also like to point out that the Tories -- the party for people "who've had enough of experts" -- made David Davies the Brexit secretary (briefly), an absolute dimwit who believed that taking the UK out of the EU would let it negotiate trade deals directly with individual EU nations, not simply ludicrously false, but also an illogical, self-defeating argument if you think about it for even a second.
[...]
Despite reporting that suggests that Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) task force has access to these Treasury systems on a “read-only” level, sources say Elez, who has visited a Kansas City office housing BFS systems, has many administrator-level privileges. Typically, those admin privileges could give someone the power to log into servers through secure shell access, navigate the entire file system, change user permissions, and delete or modify critical files. That could allow someone to bypass the security measures of, and potentially cause irreversible changes to, the very systems they have access to.
posted by mhum at 11:40 AM on February 4 [8 favorites]
Is what they are doing illegal?
Well it wouldn't be if most people tried to do this.
I googled to see if Musk has a security clearance, and one hit said no, and another said he had a TS. Who knows?
Something I recall from my days in classified accounts is that it's not just the level of clearance, but there is also a 'need to know' aspect as well. Just because I had an SI/TK clearance didn't mean I could just walk into any SI/TK location. I needed to be authorized as well.
I have not heard anything about his DOGE 'employees'. (how does a non-existant department have employees?) Do they have clearances? Giving unfettered access to uncleared persons is a serious violation of our security laws.
In the military accounts I've been in, the MP's were clear about the distinction between rank and authority, and I would be surprised if they would allow someone without legal, written access in. Building security, on the other hand, is less likely to follow the rules.
posted by MtDewd at 11:43 AM on February 4 [8 favorites]
Well it wouldn't be if most people tried to do this.
I googled to see if Musk has a security clearance, and one hit said no, and another said he had a TS. Who knows?
Something I recall from my days in classified accounts is that it's not just the level of clearance, but there is also a 'need to know' aspect as well. Just because I had an SI/TK clearance didn't mean I could just walk into any SI/TK location. I needed to be authorized as well.
I have not heard anything about his DOGE 'employees'. (how does a non-existant department have employees?) Do they have clearances? Giving unfettered access to uncleared persons is a serious violation of our security laws.
In the military accounts I've been in, the MP's were clear about the distinction between rank and authority, and I would be surprised if they would allow someone without legal, written access in. Building security, on the other hand, is less likely to follow the rules.
posted by MtDewd at 11:43 AM on February 4 [8 favorites]
Josh Marshall is reporting that Musk's guy is making actual changes to the Treasury payment system, already deployed to production. My jaw dropped.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:49 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:49 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
Also like: it’s not like movies. Your clearance level, post compartmentalization, is tailored to the department you need to be in. A CIA guy can’t just wave his badge at the NSA, or vice versa. There’s no “all access” badge *by design*.
posted by corb at 11:56 AM on February 4 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:56 AM on February 4 [8 favorites]
Josh Marshall is reporting that Musk's guy is making actual changes to the Treasury payment system, already deployed to production.
and this is where elon and his employees are going to fuck around and find out - i don't know how likely a system crash could be, but if they somehow screw up meeting the debt payments ...
posted by pyramid termite at 12:03 PM on February 4
and this is where elon and his employees are going to fuck around and find out - i don't know how likely a system crash could be, but if they somehow screw up meeting the debt payments ...
posted by pyramid termite at 12:03 PM on February 4
It's true that access to classified information is granted at a need-to-know level, but if somebody asserts the lawfully elected President, from whom the vast majority of classification authority originates, has personally granted them need-to-know, how do you respond to that? You folks are describing how things normally operate while we are already in constitutional crisis territory. The officers who conduct the investigations, adjudicate the reviews, etc are all part of the executive branch and serve at the pleasure of the President. Maybe Congress could contest this, since they passed the legislation establishing the classification system, but with a GOP majority that seems entirely uninterested in restraining Trump...
posted by ndr at 12:16 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
posted by ndr at 12:16 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
[Minor note of levity in a dire situation: I have decided that the appropriate pronunciation of DOGE (or Doge), regardless of what stupid pre-existing memey crap might suggest, is "dodgy." Try saying it that way as you read the news coverage and I think you'll find it fits very nicely.]
posted by nickmark at 12:17 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by nickmark at 12:17 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
If Marshall's reporting is correct, then "access" is not nearly enough to describe the magnitude of what Musk is doing. This isn't just getting information that should be secret. This is changing the literal software govt runs on. Officials can do what they want, but they depend on software. And so this is a radical new way to defy congress and the courts. Computer says "no".
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:35 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:35 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
and this is where elon and his employees are going to fuck around and find out
No. They're not going to find out. The systems are too important for them to find out no matter how much they fuck with it. They can completely wipe everything and there will be a hundred selfless government employees working both thanklessly and under threat of maintaining secrecy to restore everything from backups because harm reduction.
That's been the common thread throughout this ordeal. These people fuck around with stuff knowing that if they screw up there's always someone responsible around who recognizes that it's better to bail them out than stand idly by while things burn. This whole coup is made up of thousands of trolley problems where everyone is being forced to take the less shitty option of compliance in the hopes of kicking the can down the road because not doing so would have immediate national consequences.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:35 PM on February 4 [8 favorites]
No. They're not going to find out. The systems are too important for them to find out no matter how much they fuck with it. They can completely wipe everything and there will be a hundred selfless government employees working both thanklessly and under threat of maintaining secrecy to restore everything from backups because harm reduction.
That's been the common thread throughout this ordeal. These people fuck around with stuff knowing that if they screw up there's always someone responsible around who recognizes that it's better to bail them out than stand idly by while things burn. This whole coup is made up of thousands of trolley problems where everyone is being forced to take the less shitty option of compliance in the hopes of kicking the can down the road because not doing so would have immediate national consequences.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:35 PM on February 4 [8 favorites]
Absolutely nothing is going to change for the better if there continue to be zero consequences. Will the change for the worse in the short term be horrific and deadly. Of course it will. But I cannot see a anyone figuring out in the next few weeks the 'level' of bad we'd be able to let it get to, to instigate a real change in voter turnout or preferences and spare the US the majority of the crash and burn. We might just have to watch it all crash and burn.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 12:42 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
posted by sharp pointy objects at 12:42 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
You folks are describing how things normally operate while we are already in constitutional crisis territory.
Getting out of the constitutional crisis requires re-asserting and re-establishing the laws and norms, however. And (as Trump has demonstrated) that requires the “asserting” part - superior force of will and messaging to the American people.
posted by eviemath at 12:45 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
Getting out of the constitutional crisis requires re-asserting and re-establishing the laws and norms, however. And (as Trump has demonstrated) that requires the “asserting” part - superior force of will and messaging to the American people.
posted by eviemath at 12:45 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
OnceUponATime If you're opposed to what Trump is doing, what purpose is served by giving him a Secretary of State?
Even if you were to make an argument that there is some valid purpose for an anti-Trump person in Marco Rubio being approved, it STILL doesn't justify a single Democrat voting for him because the Republicans have the majority in the Senate. They can approve anyone they want, the Democrats can stand united and say "nope, this is wrong".
Yet they don't.
Even ostensibly liberal and fighty Democrats like Senator Amy Klobuchar aren't actually fighting, she voted yes to move climate change denier and all around incompetent and unqualified nominee for Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rollins out of committee and on to a floor vote. Why? What possible benefit did anyone, especially the opposition to Trump, get out of that?
And yes, when Trump is putting Muskite Commissars in charge of basically everything and letting far right wing college kids access our most critical non-military computer systems [1], then it's EXACTLY the time to shut down the Senate and demand a stop to the madness.
Continuing to act like this is normal and eveyrthing is fine is how this gets normalized and nothing stops it.
Mitch McConnell could, in theory, simply rule that unanamous consent is no longer needed, same as he can in theory rule that the filibuster doesn't apply to whatever he personally wants to pass. But MAKE HIM DO IT. Don't just shurg and say "welp, can't do anything about it, those six kids just run everything now".
[1] And letting Musk hook up unknown servers to do unknown things, but likely copy all data for his own personal use.
posted by sotonohito at 12:51 PM on February 4 [11 favorites]
Even if you were to make an argument that there is some valid purpose for an anti-Trump person in Marco Rubio being approved, it STILL doesn't justify a single Democrat voting for him because the Republicans have the majority in the Senate. They can approve anyone they want, the Democrats can stand united and say "nope, this is wrong".
Yet they don't.
Even ostensibly liberal and fighty Democrats like Senator Amy Klobuchar aren't actually fighting, she voted yes to move climate change denier and all around incompetent and unqualified nominee for Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rollins out of committee and on to a floor vote. Why? What possible benefit did anyone, especially the opposition to Trump, get out of that?
And yes, when Trump is putting Muskite Commissars in charge of basically everything and letting far right wing college kids access our most critical non-military computer systems [1], then it's EXACTLY the time to shut down the Senate and demand a stop to the madness.
Continuing to act like this is normal and eveyrthing is fine is how this gets normalized and nothing stops it.
Mitch McConnell could, in theory, simply rule that unanamous consent is no longer needed, same as he can in theory rule that the filibuster doesn't apply to whatever he personally wants to pass. But MAKE HIM DO IT. Don't just shurg and say "welp, can't do anything about it, those six kids just run everything now".
[1] And letting Musk hook up unknown servers to do unknown things, but likely copy all data for his own personal use.
posted by sotonohito at 12:51 PM on February 4 [11 favorites]
You know, I thought we got ironic twisted out of avoiding a second Jan 6 insurrection and that sucked plenty but avoiding a second Trump term by Musk of all people getting subbed in at the last second is just really a dick move on the part of the universe.
Why do we even have a fucking monkey's paw anyway?
(Profanity used to avoid AI response.)
posted by stet at 1:06 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
Why do we even have a fucking monkey's paw anyway?
(Profanity used to avoid AI response.)
posted by stet at 1:06 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
On the classification issue, I'd argue it's a microcosm of the entire problem.
In the past it was decided that the President, as in one single individual, got to control what is kept secret and how. There were some processes implemented, but ultimately it's all derived from this single person.
And now we have Trump as that single person.
Suddenly we find that what we'd relied on as a secure and stable system of government was really just the President pinkie swearing not to do what Trump is doing.
Like so much else the lesson to learn here is not "we picked the wrong single individual to hold all this enormous power" but rather "no single individual should ever hold that much power".
The problem is not that Trump is a bad President.
The problem is that the President is too powerful.
The Green Lantern theory was right, at least in part, and Trump is displaying that even if he doesn't personally have the will and drive he can outsource that. All it takes is the President just bestowing a willful undering and they have that power too.
We do also have the problem that we've got a nakedly partisan Supreme Court who is eager to let a Republican administration do more or less anything. But that's actually a separate problem.
Imagine, for a moment, a different system: we elect one Quadvir every year and the Executive Branch is run by agreement among the Presidential Quadrumvirate. America voted like idiots and made Trump the newest Quadvir.
Would Musk have unchecked power to send Commissars into all govenrment agencies? Would the Department of Education be being shut down? Would we be debating whether or not Musk and his gang of college kids have top secret clearance?
No.
Because three other people, even if one or even two were Republicans, wouldn't let Trump run wild like he is.
America was founded, in part, on the realization that concentrating power in one person's hands is a bad idea. Kings, it turns out, aren't actually all that great.
Then they invented the President as a pseudo-king because the people in charge were aristocratic idiots in 1790 and while they knew intellectually kings were a bad idea they still thought that there needed to be someone in charge.
My point here, and I do have one, is simple:
Even if democracy survives and we get a Democrat in office in 2028, this will all happen again the next time a Republican who agrees with the Project 2025 people is elected.
There is only one way out: weaken the Presiency.
posted by sotonohito at 1:06 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
In the past it was decided that the President, as in one single individual, got to control what is kept secret and how. There were some processes implemented, but ultimately it's all derived from this single person.
And now we have Trump as that single person.
Suddenly we find that what we'd relied on as a secure and stable system of government was really just the President pinkie swearing not to do what Trump is doing.
Like so much else the lesson to learn here is not "we picked the wrong single individual to hold all this enormous power" but rather "no single individual should ever hold that much power".
The problem is not that Trump is a bad President.
The problem is that the President is too powerful.
The Green Lantern theory was right, at least in part, and Trump is displaying that even if he doesn't personally have the will and drive he can outsource that. All it takes is the President just bestowing a willful undering and they have that power too.
We do also have the problem that we've got a nakedly partisan Supreme Court who is eager to let a Republican administration do more or less anything. But that's actually a separate problem.
Imagine, for a moment, a different system: we elect one Quadvir every year and the Executive Branch is run by agreement among the Presidential Quadrumvirate. America voted like idiots and made Trump the newest Quadvir.
Would Musk have unchecked power to send Commissars into all govenrment agencies? Would the Department of Education be being shut down? Would we be debating whether or not Musk and his gang of college kids have top secret clearance?
No.
Because three other people, even if one or even two were Republicans, wouldn't let Trump run wild like he is.
America was founded, in part, on the realization that concentrating power in one person's hands is a bad idea. Kings, it turns out, aren't actually all that great.
Then they invented the President as a pseudo-king because the people in charge were aristocratic idiots in 1790 and while they knew intellectually kings were a bad idea they still thought that there needed to be someone in charge.
My point here, and I do have one, is simple:
Even if democracy survives and we get a Democrat in office in 2028, this will all happen again the next time a Republican who agrees with the Project 2025 people is elected.
There is only one way out: weaken the Presiency.
posted by sotonohito at 1:06 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Well, there still isn't a Green Lantern President. There's a Red Lantern president.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:53 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:53 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
No. They're not going to find out. The systems are too important for them to find out no matter how much they fuck with it.
if they fuck up the debt payments they will have dealt a major blow to this country's currency and financial reputation - our cost of borrowing will go up and that will cost us billions
these people are playing with fire
also, another vote for limiting the presidency
posted by pyramid termite at 2:37 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
if they fuck up the debt payments they will have dealt a major blow to this country's currency and financial reputation - our cost of borrowing will go up and that will cost us billions
these people are playing with fire
also, another vote for limiting the presidency
posted by pyramid termite at 2:37 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
if somebody asserts the lawfully elected President, from whom the vast majority of classification authority originates, has personally granted them need-to-know, how do you respond to that
Personally, based on the instructions I have been given on my personal responsibility to safeguard the information I have been given, whose disclosure can reasonably be expected to cause "exceptionally grave damage" to the national security of the United States, I tell them to come back with written orders, signed by the President, stamped with the Presidential seal so that I know it's valid. And then the instant they leave, I pick up the sledgehammer that I have been issued for just such situations, and I proceed to smash my computer and any computer where the information can be accessed from into tiny bits.
When they return with a signed document with a seal, I regretfully inform them that the information no longer is accessible, and stand ready for whatever consequences the nation that I serve deems I am due.
posted by corb at 2:54 PM on February 4 [18 favorites]
Personally, based on the instructions I have been given on my personal responsibility to safeguard the information I have been given, whose disclosure can reasonably be expected to cause "exceptionally grave damage" to the national security of the United States, I tell them to come back with written orders, signed by the President, stamped with the Presidential seal so that I know it's valid. And then the instant they leave, I pick up the sledgehammer that I have been issued for just such situations, and I proceed to smash my computer and any computer where the information can be accessed from into tiny bits.
When they return with a signed document with a seal, I regretfully inform them that the information no longer is accessible, and stand ready for whatever consequences the nation that I serve deems I am due.
posted by corb at 2:54 PM on February 4 [18 favorites]
Someone like Musk has so much money that even if he totally crashes the world economy and destroys his own fortune, he's not going to be destitute. Whether he has 500 million dollars or 50 million dollars left, it's still fuck-you money and he will still be immune from prosecution (or at least immune to actual consequences). This is why the Luigi option begins to look so appealing.
posted by rikschell at 3:01 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 3:01 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
But if you actually look at who conservatives put in charge of things, you realize how stupid their ideas of who is qualified or deserving are. RFK Jr.? Pete Hegseth? Marco Rubio? Bffr. And of course, these former Musk interns/loyalists. It is tempting to attribute this specifically to Trump or Trumpism
It might be worth distinguishing incompetence from malice (and Trumpism from Muskism) here. RFK and Hegseth are classic Trumpism, all about appearances and installing loyalists. DOGE is a different playbook, but not a new one in the business world - sending in a team of whiz kids to do some dirty work.
posted by atoxyl at 3:16 PM on February 4
It might be worth distinguishing incompetence from malice (and Trumpism from Muskism) here. RFK and Hegseth are classic Trumpism, all about appearances and installing loyalists. DOGE is a different playbook, but not a new one in the business world - sending in a team of whiz kids to do some dirty work.
posted by atoxyl at 3:16 PM on February 4
sending in a team of whiz kids to do some dirty work
this fairly describes the career of Robert Strange McNamara
posted by ginger.beef at 3:21 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
this fairly describes the career of Robert Strange McNamara
posted by ginger.beef at 3:21 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
FWIW, there was apparently some kind of protest/press conference in front of the Treasury building about Musk's takeover. Here's a 90 minute YT video from the event posted by Sen. Merkley. On TikTok, Jamelle Bouie speculates that such protests could (or, really, should) spread to Tesla dealerships.
posted by mhum at 3:29 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
posted by mhum at 3:29 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
sending in a team of whiz kids to do some dirty work.
They’re not whiz kids. They’re kids not because they are smart, but because they are dumb- or, at least, naive and easily controlled.
To quote myself,
They’re not whiz kids. They’re kids not because they are smart, but because they are dumb- or, at least, naive and easily controlled.
To quote myself,
Musk has hired that particular team for the same reason men over 40 date women under 22, or cults target the late teens to early 20s demographic - because they don’t have the life experience to recognize when they are being exploited, mistreated, or asked to do blatantly illegal or unethical shit.posted by eviemath at 3:46 PM on February 4 [12 favorites]
If the Hitler Youth's smart, it's just by accident...how the hell would Elon Musk know if anybody was smart? He's a glue-eating chimp. We're talking about malice and incompetence like they're mutually exclusive qualities; they aren't.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:05 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:05 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
FWIW, there was apparently some kind of protest/press conference in front of the Treasury building about Musk's takeover.
This is more than "some kind of" protest - this is 90 minutes of Dem Senators and Reps (at least 2 dozen of them) hopping mad and thousands of people in the street. Organized by Indivisible.org and MoveOn after a group of Congresspeople were denied entrance to the building (which they knew would happen.)
Everyone freaking out about "why don't the Dems DO SOMETHING !!!!" - well, this is them doing something, one of the somethings they can do when they're in the Congressional minority. Later than we wanted, sure, smaller than the Women's March, yes - but they're starting to wake up, and folks should watch this video.
And fucking share it.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:48 PM on February 4 [9 favorites]
This is more than "some kind of" protest - this is 90 minutes of Dem Senators and Reps (at least 2 dozen of them) hopping mad and thousands of people in the street. Organized by Indivisible.org and MoveOn after a group of Congresspeople were denied entrance to the building (which they knew would happen.)
Everyone freaking out about "why don't the Dems DO SOMETHING !!!!" - well, this is them doing something, one of the somethings they can do when they're in the Congressional minority. Later than we wanted, sure, smaller than the Women's March, yes - but they're starting to wake up, and folks should watch this video.
And fucking share it.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:48 PM on February 4 [9 favorites]
Personally, based on the instructions I have been given on my personal responsibility to safeguard the information I have been given...
While my own intersection with classified data had only to do with being able to be in certain rooms, I never really had access to confidential material, nor did I want that responsibility. Nevertheless, I always felt that I had that responsibility, and I got the feeling that everyone else involved had that same feeling.
My observations over the years make me think that military personnel are way more likely to follow the rules than most Americans. I wonder how the military will react to normally-illegal requests.
also- Proud that my rep was at Treasury today.
posted by MtDewd at 5:03 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
While my own intersection with classified data had only to do with being able to be in certain rooms, I never really had access to confidential material, nor did I want that responsibility. Nevertheless, I always felt that I had that responsibility, and I got the feeling that everyone else involved had that same feeling.
My observations over the years make me think that military personnel are way more likely to follow the rules than most Americans. I wonder how the military will react to normally-illegal requests.
also- Proud that my rep was at Treasury today.
posted by MtDewd at 5:03 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
We're talking about malice and incompetence like they're mutually exclusive qualities; they aren't.
posted by kittens for breakfast
This.
posted by Pouteria at 5:06 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast
This.
posted by Pouteria at 5:06 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
My observations over the years make me think that military personnel are way more likely to follow the rules than most Americans. I wonder how the military will react to normally-illegal requests.
I think that this ultimately depends on whether they are foolish enough to ask the military to do things that the military knows are wrong, rather than just using them in service of abstract aims that are wrong but not within the usual scope of wrong, and it also depends on whether or not they try to force out the older career soldiers who would normally be good influences who know it's wrong.
So like: if they try sending the military to round up citizens and pull them out of their homes: the military knows that's not their fucking job. If any military members forgot for a minute that wasn't their fucking job, I think if people started reminding them that wasn't their job, I think they would start balking.
But like: if Trump tells them to go to war with Mexico or Canada, like suuuuuuuure, it's unconstitutional for him to personally start a war, but like, that's something only a few Constitutional nerds in the Army are going to care about, so there's going to be some fierce arguments about it, and *some* guys won't deploy, but other guys will shrug and deploy because the orders to go to war always come from above them, they don't really get trained on 'how to determine whether the war you are ordered to deploy to is constitutionally enacted by law'.
Now if Trump wants them to commit a whole bunch of war crimes on populations, because Trump...seems to want to commit a whole bunch of war crimes on populations....that might cause some balking, because those are things that at least while I was in, we were regularly trained on the problems with.
God, we will fucking see how it goes, I guess.
posted by corb at 6:15 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
I think that this ultimately depends on whether they are foolish enough to ask the military to do things that the military knows are wrong, rather than just using them in service of abstract aims that are wrong but not within the usual scope of wrong, and it also depends on whether or not they try to force out the older career soldiers who would normally be good influences who know it's wrong.
So like: if they try sending the military to round up citizens and pull them out of their homes: the military knows that's not their fucking job. If any military members forgot for a minute that wasn't their fucking job, I think if people started reminding them that wasn't their job, I think they would start balking.
But like: if Trump tells them to go to war with Mexico or Canada, like suuuuuuuure, it's unconstitutional for him to personally start a war, but like, that's something only a few Constitutional nerds in the Army are going to care about, so there's going to be some fierce arguments about it, and *some* guys won't deploy, but other guys will shrug and deploy because the orders to go to war always come from above them, they don't really get trained on 'how to determine whether the war you are ordered to deploy to is constitutionally enacted by law'.
Now if Trump wants them to commit a whole bunch of war crimes on populations, because Trump...seems to want to commit a whole bunch of war crimes on populations....that might cause some balking, because those are things that at least while I was in, we were regularly trained on the problems with.
God, we will fucking see how it goes, I guess.
posted by corb at 6:15 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Getting out of the constitutional crisis requires re-asserting and re-establishing the laws and norms, however. And (as Trump has demonstrated) that requires the “asserting” part - superior force of will and messaging to the American people.Sure (or more likely, new laws and norms, seeing how the current ones are giving way and the Legislative and Judicial Branch can't muster a unified response). I think insisting current norms - the ones established by the Executive Branch - are correct, while they are under attack by the same Executive, will not garner sufficient support. At the very least you'll have to change rhetorical tack from "The President can't do this!" to something like "The President is allowing Elon Musk to loot the American people!" People need to be making the case for the material impact this will have (Elon Musk will steal your parent's Social Security checks, you'll be drinking leaded water, your kids won't receive an good education, turn Dogecoin into the legal tender of the US, etc). Harris already made the abstract governance case that Trump was a fascist who'd upend norms, and not enough people cared. Frankly, the Dems should've been vowing resistance the whole time to gum up the works and prepare people for what was coming, not welcome Trump normally.
Personally, based on the instructions I have been given on my personal responsibility to safeguard the information I have been given, whose disclosure can reasonably be expected to cause "exceptionally grave damage" to the national security of the United States, I tell them to come back with written orders, signed by the President, stamped with the Presidential seal so that I know it's valid. And then the instant they leave, I pick up the sledgehammer that I have been issued for just such situations, and I proceed to smash my computer and any computer where the information can be accessed from into tiny bits.I admire this course of action and god knows we'll need many acts of individual resistance to get through this. But I suspect many people would receive orders signed by the President, bite their tongue, think about how they're going to pay their mortgage, and accede. If we're talking about the Treasury payments system, blowing up the ability to do payments entirely might not be a better alternative than having it in the wrong hands.
posted by ndr at 6:24 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
They’re not whiz kids. They’re kids not because they are smart, but because they are dumb- or, at least, naive and easily controlled.
I think we’re talking past each other here - the allusion to McNamara and the management consulting mindset was fully intentional. “Whiz kids” are clever enough to do all kinds of “creative destruction” but not wise enough to know better.
posted by atoxyl at 6:50 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
I think we’re talking past each other here - the allusion to McNamara and the management consulting mindset was fully intentional. “Whiz kids” are clever enough to do all kinds of “creative destruction” but not wise enough to know better.
posted by atoxyl at 6:50 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
Deaths predicted amid the chaos of Elon Musk’s shutdown of USAid
The impact of the billionaire’s declaration has been swift and brutal, with food and crucial drugs abandoned in warehouses, vital programmes closed and workers laid off
posted by lalochezia at 7:30 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
The impact of the billionaire’s declaration has been swift and brutal, with food and crucial drugs abandoned in warehouses, vital programmes closed and workers laid off
posted by lalochezia at 7:30 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
I think that asserting that Musk - as not an actual governmental employee, unelected billionaire - and his team of sycophantic youth are doing highly illegal things is a bit different than saying Trump is doing them. Lots of Maga folks don’t like Musk either, to start with. So you’re appealing to their innate rule-following while not also working (much) against the Trump daddy worship.
posted by eviemath at 7:51 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:51 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
And it being such a clear Musk operation kind of has the feel that it’s going on without much direction from Trump, with some details maybe behind his back (especially whatever details are most likely to negatively impact whichever Maga-tie you’re talking to who wouldn’t want to believe that their daddy Trump would hurt them like that). It makes Trump look weak and senile, really, how Musk is clearly just running rampant.
posted by eviemath at 7:53 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:53 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
Eg. I’m thinking the script for talking to your right wing but not tech-bro uncle or whatever could go something like, “Aren’t you worried about the worst data breach in our country’s history? That prissy, drugged up billionaire Musk and some team of baby faced college kids he’s groomed who think they’re smarter than everyone else have stolen all of our social security info, tax records, banking info. And they have no security clearances, they’re not even all US citizens! Who knows when or where they’re going to sell your data and someone will start impersonating you and wreck your credit or reputation. Aren’t you a Trump supporter? How can he allow something like this to go on under his nose? Musk is running things like it’s his own personal kingdom and he can do anything he wants. Is Trump too old or senile or powerless to protect us from this or something?”
It’s certainly not going to solve all the problems, and tonight’s deluge of horrible new announcements is probably a scared response to people actually starting to push back and do something about some of their illegal abuses, but will still create more work and more pain and problems. But prying a crowbar into the cracks in the fragile coalition of different factions of Trump supporters will be useful and helpful.
posted by eviemath at 8:12 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
It’s certainly not going to solve all the problems, and tonight’s deluge of horrible new announcements is probably a scared response to people actually starting to push back and do something about some of their illegal abuses, but will still create more work and more pain and problems. But prying a crowbar into the cracks in the fragile coalition of different factions of Trump supporters will be useful and helpful.
posted by eviemath at 8:12 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
It is true, though, that Trump is a stale old fart now. If you watch the press conference with Netanyahu, he seems confused and rambling, making noises that sound like buzz words stitched together and assembled into the cadence of political rhetoric, but unfocused, meaningless, and frankly extremely low energy. I certainly am not a person who would ever wish for the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu, but Netanyahu sounded, in comparison, cogent, forthright and statesmanlike. Trump seemed like, "What if Chris Farley had lived to become an old drunken uncle." Whatever mojo Trump had, it's gone now -- Musk ran away with it. I feel like it won't be long before they give Trump the Biden treatment and just quietly move him off stage.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:53 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:53 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
If you watch the press conference with Netanyahu, he seems confused and rambling, making noises that sound like buzz words stitched together and assembled into the cadence of political rhetoric, but unfocused, meaningless, and frankly extremely low energy.
posted by kittens for breakfast
Weekend at Don's is happening in real time before our eyes.
posted by Pouteria at 10:30 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast
Weekend at Don's is happening in real time before our eyes.
posted by Pouteria at 10:30 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Getting out of the constitutional crisis requires re-asserting and re-establishing the laws and norms,
in large measure it's the "norms" that got us into this mess... actually it started with Newt in the 90's.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:54 AM on February 5 [1 favorite]
in large measure it's the "norms" that got us into this mess... actually it started with Newt in the 90's.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:54 AM on February 5 [1 favorite]
Related: Business plot revealed by Smedley Butler
posted by jeffburdges at 1:10 AM on February 5 [5 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 1:10 AM on February 5 [5 favorites]
I feel this is going to set the tone for the rest of the administration. If we don’t have massive public protest organized soon, things will only accelerate.
posted by Room 101 at 7:19 AM on February 5 [3 favorites]
posted by Room 101 at 7:19 AM on February 5 [3 favorites]
Agree strongly, Room 101. It may not have been intended to be the test case, but that's what this is: if Trump can get away with this he'll just keep right on going. If he's stopped it'll set the precedent that he can and will be stopped.
posted by sotonohito at 8:05 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 8:05 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
I recommend just starting with something like a mass FUCK YOU. Designate a number of locations nationwide, easily accessed by most in the given region. Coordinate a time. Say 3pm Eastern. Saturday afternoon. Everybody is encouraged to dress normal, behave in a civil manner. Keep it family friendly. At the designated time, a countdown begins.
5 - 4 - 3- 2- 1 -- FUCK YOU
heard from cities and towns all over the nation, across the whole world because everybody's getting sucked into this barbaric foolishness.
Keep doing it at least once a week until Jesus returns or whatever.
posted by philip-random at 9:50 AM on February 5 [6 favorites]
5 - 4 - 3- 2- 1 -- FUCK YOU
heard from cities and towns all over the nation, across the whole world because everybody's getting sucked into this barbaric foolishness.
Keep doing it at least once a week until Jesus returns or whatever.
posted by philip-random at 9:50 AM on February 5 [6 favorites]
1 DOGE staffer resigns over racist posts. gated, but the employee's name is Marko Elez.
posted by toastyk at 12:55 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 12:55 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]
Security researcher Brian Krebs lays out the horrifying background of some of Musks's DOGE kids via a link to a Wired story which he quotes and some of his own knowledge.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:23 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:23 PM on February 6 [4 favorites]
That WSJ article from toastyk has not hit archive.is yet, so I haven't read it yet. But, I'm really confused.
Elez works/worked for DOGE, right? And he was also employed by the Treasury Department? How?
If he worked for DOGE first, how did he get hired by the Treasury so quickly? If he worked for the Treasury first, wouldn't the Treasury have to approve any of his outside work? Certainly, this wouldn't be approved for conflict of interests reasons.
Or, am I misreading the articles and they are just saying he works for DOGE and is stationed at Treasury? But, if that's the case, why in the injunction does the judge says he is a "Special Government Employee"? I thought the DOGE people were not government employees? Is that just the judge saying that employment status is something to be determined at a later date?
I'm so confused, y'all.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 1:31 PM on February 6
Elez works/worked for DOGE, right? And he was also employed by the Treasury Department? How?
If he worked for DOGE first, how did he get hired by the Treasury so quickly? If he worked for the Treasury first, wouldn't the Treasury have to approve any of his outside work? Certainly, this wouldn't be approved for conflict of interests reasons.
Or, am I misreading the articles and they are just saying he works for DOGE and is stationed at Treasury? But, if that's the case, why in the injunction does the judge says he is a "Special Government Employee"? I thought the DOGE people were not government employees? Is that just the judge saying that employment status is something to be determined at a later date?
I'm so confused, y'all.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 1:31 PM on February 6
Elon Musk is a ‘special government employee.’ What does that mean?
A special government employee is “anyone who works, or is expected to work, for the government for 130 days or less in a 365-day period,” with or without compensation,
It also means he is exempt from some of the rules — including around financial disclosures and conflicts of interest — that apply to full-time government employees.
posted by yyz at 2:13 PM on February 6 [2 favorites]
A special government employee is “anyone who works, or is expected to work, for the government for 130 days or less in a 365-day period,” with or without compensation,
It also means he is exempt from some of the rules — including around financial disclosures and conflicts of interest — that apply to full-time government employees.
posted by yyz at 2:13 PM on February 6 [2 favorites]
Musk (and presumably his DOGE employees) were declared Special Government Employees by Trump.
posted by Roommate at 2:13 PM on February 6 [1 favorite]
posted by Roommate at 2:13 PM on February 6 [1 favorite]
Vance tells Musk that DOGE staffer who resigned after posting racist tweets should be rehired
posted by jeffburdges at 11:12 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 11:12 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]
If he's "a kid," what is he doing with that much responsibility?
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:26 AM on February 7 [3 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:26 AM on February 7 [3 favorites]
Abusing it. Takes a while to mature out of that.
posted by flabdablet at 11:40 AM on February 7 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:40 AM on February 7 [2 favorites]
The CyberTruck is 17 times more likely to have a fire fatality than a Ford Pinto
Ya know, the FAA could go approve Starship for extremely high speed passenger flights, like right away. If you're rich enough and absolutely must get there fast.. or not at all.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:54 AM on February 9 [3 favorites]
Ya know, the FAA could go approve Starship for extremely high speed passenger flights, like right away. If you're rich enough and absolutely must get there fast.. or not at all.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:54 AM on February 9 [3 favorites]
The cybertruck is a fascist trash can but I'm curious if elevated death by fire rates are true for EVs in general?
posted by latkes at 7:50 PM on February 9
posted by latkes at 7:50 PM on February 9
Not even close.
The figures given there are for fires rather than fire deaths, but given that the factor favouring EVs is 80 there would need to be some really strong reason why a battery fire is more likely to kill somebody than a fuel fire to outweigh that, and there just isn't one. In fact it's the other way around: the single most notable feature of a battery fire is how hard it is to extinguish, while the single most notable feature of a fuel fire is how insanely quickly it escalates.
Cybertrucks catch fire not because EVs are pieces of shit, but because Elon Musk is.
posted by flabdablet at 10:19 PM on February 9 [5 favorites]
The figures given there are for fires rather than fire deaths, but given that the factor favouring EVs is 80 there would need to be some really strong reason why a battery fire is more likely to kill somebody than a fuel fire to outweigh that, and there just isn't one. In fact it's the other way around: the single most notable feature of a battery fire is how hard it is to extinguish, while the single most notable feature of a fuel fire is how insanely quickly it escalates.
Cybertrucks catch fire not because EVs are pieces of shit, but because Elon Musk is.
posted by flabdablet at 10:19 PM on February 9 [5 favorites]
Also, there is only one ratio computed in the article I cited, not any analysis of why the deaths occured, so cybertrucks poor score maybe minor design factors or even cybertruck drivers fault. It could be the sheer quantity of batteries too, or their quality, which could bode poorly for battery powered boats.
1 in 15,000 ebike batteries experences a fire, but even there not sure they're controlling for the cause of the fire, like sometimes a rack of rental bikes goes up together, when only one of them caused the problem.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:04 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]
1 in 15,000 ebike batteries experences a fire, but even there not sure they're controlling for the cause of the fire, like sometimes a rack of rental bikes goes up together, when only one of them caused the problem.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:04 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]
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posted by latkes at 9:51 PM on February 2 [31 favorites]