Latest Zero Day: CVE-2025-HEGSETH
March 1, 2025 5:51 AM Subscribe
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth last week ordered U.S. Cyber Command to stand down from all planning against Russia, including offensive digital actions, according to three people familiar with the matter.
Exclusive: Hegseth orders Cyber Command to stand down on Russia planning
Exclusive: Hegseth orders Cyber Command to stand down on Russia planning
Hegseth gave the instruction to Cyber Command chief Gen. Timothy Haugh, who then informed the organization's outgoing director of operations, Marine Corps Maj. Gen. Ryan Heritage, of the new guidance, according to these people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the matter’s sensitivity.Trump administration retreats in fight against Russian cyber threats
The order does not apply to the National Security Agency, which Haugh also leads, or its signals intelligence work targeting Russia, the sources said.
The Trump administration has publicly and privately signaled that it does not believe Russia represents a cyber threat against US national security or critical infrastructure, marking a radical departure from longstanding intelligence assessments.What are some of the digital threats from Russia?
The shift in policy could make the US vulnerable to hacking attacks by Russia, experts warned, and appeared to reflect the warming of relations between Donald Trump and Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin.
...
The US policy change has also been established behind closed doors.
A recent memo at the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (Cisa) set out new priorities for the agency, which is part of the Department of Homeland Security and monitors cyber threats against US critical infrastructure. The new directive set out priorities that included China and protecting local systems. It did not mention Russia.
A person familiar with the matter who spoke to the Guardian on the condition of anonymity said analysts at the agency were verbally informed that they were not to follow or report on Russian threats, even though this had previously been a main focus for the agency.
The person said work that was being done on something “Russia-related” was in effect “nixed”.
- Russian Interference: Coming Soon to an Election Near You
- Ransomware, including the notorious LockBit
- Russian intelligence associated hacker groups like Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear that have hacked US Government Agencies, GOP, DNC, the Pentagon, historical American Allies, Microsoft, and on and on...
- Hacking critical American infrastructure like nuclear power plants, the electric grid, the stock exchanges, Dams and water systems, etc.
- Hacking American companies to steal secrets and perform sabotage
This site has an unusually strong concentration of GenX-ers, I'd wager, so I'm curious - guys, is it me or is the US cozying up to Russia just unbelievably bizarre on an emotional level?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:10 AM on March 1 [182 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:10 AM on March 1 [182 favorites]
it's not only enough to make you wonder who won the cold war, it's enough to make you wonder about ww2 and the civil war, too
posted by pyramid termite at 6:16 AM on March 1 [41 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 6:16 AM on March 1 [41 favorites]
The outcome of all three of those has just been reversed. WWIII ended four months ago and the free world lost.
Emotionally, I am calm because I have been predicting it would happen for eight years. The inner turmoil burned itself out by 2018 or so.
posted by CynicalKnight at 6:19 AM on March 1 [24 favorites]
Emotionally, I am calm because I have been predicting it would happen for eight years. The inner turmoil burned itself out by 2018 or so.
posted by CynicalKnight at 6:19 AM on March 1 [24 favorites]
it's my belief that ww3 is ongoing and the u s may have opted out of it - or is trying to
posted by pyramid termite at 6:24 AM on March 1 [3 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 6:24 AM on March 1 [3 favorites]
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:28 AM on March 1 [33 favorites]
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:28 AM on March 1 [33 favorites]
it's not only enough to make you wonder who won the cold war, it's enough to make you wonder about ww2 and the civil war, too
Zhou Enlai was asked if, on the whole, the French Revolution had been a positive historical development. He answered, “Surely it is too soon to tell.”
posted by Lemkin at 6:33 AM on March 1 [22 favorites]
Zhou Enlai was asked if, on the whole, the French Revolution had been a positive historical development. He answered, “Surely it is too soon to tell.”
posted by Lemkin at 6:33 AM on March 1 [22 favorites]
it's my belief that ww3 is ongoing
Au contraire, WWIII is already over. The US lost.
posted by tommasz at 6:37 AM on March 1 [8 favorites]
Au contraire, WWIII is already over. The US lost.
posted by tommasz at 6:37 AM on March 1 [8 favorites]
guys, is it me or is the US cozying up to Russia just unbelievably bizarre on an emotional level?
My instinctual take as a teen at the height of the Reagan / Thatcher / USSR / end of the Cold War era was that the adult world is insane, and I'd be lucky to survive it.
Here in my 50s, my take remains largely the same, with a brief 1990s detour into "mature, reasonable thinking". Mainstream American society is not a rational enterprise.
posted by reedbird_hill at 6:44 AM on March 1 [34 favorites]
My instinctual take as a teen at the height of the Reagan / Thatcher / USSR / end of the Cold War era was that the adult world is insane, and I'd be lucky to survive it.
Here in my 50s, my take remains largely the same, with a brief 1990s detour into "mature, reasonable thinking". Mainstream American society is not a rational enterprise.
posted by reedbird_hill at 6:44 AM on March 1 [34 favorites]
Two key objectives of propaganda are to sap the will to resist and to give up on deciding what's true. Consider before amplifying either of those messages. The US hasn't lost yet, probably most people don't even know what is going on.
posted by anthill at 6:50 AM on March 1 [56 favorites]
posted by anthill at 6:50 AM on March 1 [56 favorites]
> an unusually strong concentration of GenX-ers
wolverines!
posted by kliuless at 7:21 AM on March 1 [26 favorites]
wolverines!
posted by kliuless at 7:21 AM on March 1 [26 favorites]
It's clear this is simply soft surrender. We are a client state of Russia now.
I studied Russian in high school and got to visit the USSR in 1988. It was important at the time to distinguish between the government, which was authoritarian and human rights abusing, and the people, who were a mix of decent, ground-down, duped, or enablers of the regime. That's us now, but it was also us all along. Everyone lost the Cold War, because hypercapitalism is just as toxic as communism was. Our government has sometimes been better at hiding its human rights abuses, but the hegemonic US has always been a net negative. Remember that Obama let Putin have Crimea. Even our best leaders have been bought and paid for basically our whole lives.
posted by rikschell at 7:28 AM on March 1 [41 favorites]
I studied Russian in high school and got to visit the USSR in 1988. It was important at the time to distinguish between the government, which was authoritarian and human rights abusing, and the people, who were a mix of decent, ground-down, duped, or enablers of the regime. That's us now, but it was also us all along. Everyone lost the Cold War, because hypercapitalism is just as toxic as communism was. Our government has sometimes been better at hiding its human rights abuses, but the hegemonic US has always been a net negative. Remember that Obama let Putin have Crimea. Even our best leaders have been bought and paid for basically our whole lives.
posted by rikschell at 7:28 AM on March 1 [41 favorites]
And to think I got pushback on this very site barely a month ago when I mused our president looks suspiciously like a Russian puppet. For the record, I do not like feeling vindicated in this manner.
As a fellow Gen-Xer, yes it does feel unbelievably bizarre. Really knocks the wind out of your sails to know Moscow is calling the shots in Washington DC. The World Turned Upside Down indeed.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 7:30 AM on March 1 [18 favorites]
As a fellow Gen-Xer, yes it does feel unbelievably bizarre. Really knocks the wind out of your sails to know Moscow is calling the shots in Washington DC. The World Turned Upside Down indeed.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 7:30 AM on March 1 [18 favorites]
is the US cozying up to Russia just unbelievably bizarre on an emotional level?
Yes. The inability of the US to rid their government of obvious foreign agents is wild. Not just not rid but actively appoint.
Ya got to think there are some Russian intelligence agents who are at times pondering retiring because the game has got so easy it's not fun anymore.
That or they start competing to see how over the top they can go.
BORIS: Well, the president is a Russian asset. What is left to do?
NATASHA: The Chairman of of the Joint Chiefs is appointed by the President, maybe there is something we can do there?
SERGEY: Maybe we can get a Russian appointed?
DARYA: A female Russian.
ALEKSANDR: Who only speaks Russian and French.
YEKATERINA: And never served in the military.
DMITRIY: Plays bandy.
SVETLANA: Is Russian Orthodox.
BORIS: OK, I think we have our bingo card defined. Let's get to it.
posted by Mitheral at 7:33 AM on March 1 [11 favorites]
Yes. The inability of the US to rid their government of obvious foreign agents is wild. Not just not rid but actively appoint.
Ya got to think there are some Russian intelligence agents who are at times pondering retiring because the game has got so easy it's not fun anymore.
That or they start competing to see how over the top they can go.
BORIS: Well, the president is a Russian asset. What is left to do?
NATASHA: The Chairman of of the Joint Chiefs is appointed by the President, maybe there is something we can do there?
SERGEY: Maybe we can get a Russian appointed?
DARYA: A female Russian.
ALEKSANDR: Who only speaks Russian and French.
YEKATERINA: And never served in the military.
DMITRIY: Plays bandy.
SVETLANA: Is Russian Orthodox.
BORIS: OK, I think we have our bingo card defined. Let's get to it.
posted by Mitheral at 7:33 AM on March 1 [11 favorites]
What kills me as a Gen-Xer is seeing the Reagan Republicans throw all in with Putin and Russia because what they wanted all along was not liberty but authority. They never wanted freedom, they wanted a Big Daddy to tell them what to do. It's why evangelicals love the most irreligious, anti-Christian leader the US has ever had.
Communism was always a red herring.
posted by rikschell at 7:37 AM on March 1 [111 favorites]
Communism was always a red herring.
posted by rikschell at 7:37 AM on March 1 [111 favorites]
oh god all my 'anti-imperialist' acquaintances are going to have opinions about this aren't they
posted by mittens at 8:09 AM on March 1 [10 favorites]
posted by mittens at 8:09 AM on March 1 [10 favorites]
As a Boomer, I remember how very emphatically "Better Dead than Red" was a bumper-sticker talking point of conservatives and Republicans. While I realize that the Cold War generation is dying out, I cannot believe that certain people—older Boomers and younger WWIIers— still in positions of authority and influence but currently outside the federal government don't feel this is an utter betrayal of the last 70 years of effort.
Besides which, I think this question, at some point, transcends the "capitalism vs. communism" battle of economic systems and political philosophies to be more "who's the Big Dog on the block?" In the last month, the U.S. has rolled over and shown its belly to the Big Dog.
posted by the sobsister at 8:21 AM on March 1 [13 favorites]
Besides which, I think this question, at some point, transcends the "capitalism vs. communism" battle of economic systems and political philosophies to be more "who's the Big Dog on the block?" In the last month, the U.S. has rolled over and shown its belly to the Big Dog.
posted by the sobsister at 8:21 AM on March 1 [13 favorites]
Mildly unrelated, but Horace Rumpole thank you for that quote and introducing me to John Harington, contributor/inventor of early flush toilets and called the "saucy godson" of Queen Elizabeth I. In particular I enjoy his other quote:
"Books give not wisdom where was none before,
But where some is, there reading makes it more."
posted by burntbook at 8:55 AM on March 1 [10 favorites]
"Books give not wisdom where was none before,
But where some is, there reading makes it more."
posted by burntbook at 8:55 AM on March 1 [10 favorites]
Heartily co-sign EmpressCallipygos here.
An additional note, one that is uncomfortable to point out, because it highlights a crass fact about our historical alliances. Isn't it... strange that a revanchist, white supremacist American president should explicitly aim at toppling our relationship with Europe?
posted by eirias at 9:08 AM on March 1 [11 favorites]
An additional note, one that is uncomfortable to point out, because it highlights a crass fact about our historical alliances. Isn't it... strange that a revanchist, white supremacist American president should explicitly aim at toppling our relationship with Europe?
posted by eirias at 9:08 AM on March 1 [11 favorites]
What scares me most is the idea that "free and fair elections" aren't enough to keep a democratic country reasonably sane anymore. And I think the reason for that is because propaganda has leveled up on the internet. Honestly I think the internet (or perhaps more specifically "the world wide web as delivered by cell phones") is the root cause of this shift, and 200 years from now every history book about this era is going to start with "The introduction of the internet to mass society in the early 2000s was an unparalleled destabilizing sociopolitical force that lead to decades of disruption and chaos worldwide."
posted by grog at 9:12 AM on March 1 [68 favorites]
posted by grog at 9:12 AM on March 1 [68 favorites]
grog: I’ve been thinking similarly. The loss of shared social context, accountability, and even visibility seems to be transformative – we’ve always had propaganda but the ability to individually target it and evade oversight is unparalleled.
posted by adamsc at 9:15 AM on March 1 [11 favorites]
posted by adamsc at 9:15 AM on March 1 [11 favorites]
Used to be the village idiots were shouted at and sent to stew in their sheds, now they all get to congregate on BeingAnIdiotActuallyMakesMeSuperSmart.com
posted by lucidium at 9:26 AM on March 1 [10 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 9:26 AM on March 1 [10 favorites]
Now, more than ever, would be a good time for American individuals to directly donate to Ukraine. Even a small donation carries a signal of solidarity.
UNITED24, the official fundraiser for Ukraine: https://u24.gov.ua
About (wikipedia)
Other donation options, previously
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:40 AM on March 1 [12 favorites]
UNITED24, the official fundraiser for Ukraine: https://u24.gov.ua
About (wikipedia)
Other donation options, previously
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:40 AM on March 1 [12 favorites]
the internet ... is the root cause
Not so much the cause, but the tool they have always needed but never had, until the Reagan administration opened it up... right around the same time they killed the Fairness Doctrine. I don't think that's a coincidence.
posted by CynicalKnight at 9:41 AM on March 1 [10 favorites]
Not so much the cause, but the tool they have always needed but never had, until the Reagan administration opened it up... right around the same time they killed the Fairness Doctrine. I don't think that's a coincidence.
posted by CynicalKnight at 9:41 AM on March 1 [10 favorites]
guys, is it me or is the US cozying up to Russia just unbelievably bizarre on an emotional level?
Yes. Even more so on an intellectual level.
posted by gimonca at 9:43 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
Yes. Even more so on an intellectual level.
posted by gimonca at 9:43 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
It's not just that the EU, Canada, Ukraine, Japan, Australia/NZ, need to think very quickly about how they'll manage their own security and defense needs--these countries, and any others with historic ties to the U.S., need to consider that any intelligence shared with the U.S. will end up at the Kremlin...
So, after typing that, I go to look for supporting links, and right away:
Foreign Policy: U.S. Allies Unsure What Secret Intelligence They Can Share with Trump
National Post: Canada's Importance in Five Eyes Raised in Meeting with Trump Border Czar
The Atlantic: The Five Eyes Have Noticed
posted by gimonca at 9:53 AM on March 1 [17 favorites]
So, after typing that, I go to look for supporting links, and right away:
Foreign Policy: U.S. Allies Unsure What Secret Intelligence They Can Share with Trump
National Post: Canada's Importance in Five Eyes Raised in Meeting with Trump Border Czar
The Atlantic: The Five Eyes Have Noticed
posted by gimonca at 9:53 AM on March 1 [17 favorites]
I had some Russian coffeeshop friends in the 90's. I remember very clearly one specific conversation where they laughed at me regarding my question about what it was like growing up in a propaganda state. "The United States is also a propaganda state, of course! But the propaganda is much better here!" It was a real epiphany moment for me, and has helped me understand a lot of what has happened since.
It is also why I come back time and time again to the tone of coverage, especially in the New York Times. We know what happens when the American establishment wants something: We get coverage like what happened in the run up to the invasion of Iraq in 2002-3. And we know what it looks like when they don't want something: Coverage looks like it did during the Obamacare legislative process or when they were drumming Biden out of the race. Either way, it's wall to wall. Pretensions of objectivity are barely maintained, if at all. Editorial framing abounds in straight news stories. But the key thing is that the coverage is absolutely wall to wall. As somebodyput it once, the "mighty Wurlitzer" gets cranked up. There is nothing subtle about it at all.
Interestingly, we also know what it looks like when the establishment wants the focus and attention of the people distracted from something. The example here is Chandra Levy after Bush/Gore 2000.
The takeaway here is that until one of these things happens, pro, con (or mass distraction), the attitude of the establishment should be regarded as effectively unconcerned. It's not so much that things are going according to plan -- I think conspiracy thinking is a crutch for people who cannot handle the uncertainty Internet in reality -- it's more that whatever is happening works well enough. That collectively the establishment does not feel their interests are threatened by these developments.
All of that said, yes, EmpressCallipygos, I do find it strange and disturbing. Ronnie Ray-Gun is surely convulsing in his putrefacted grave. Wolverines, indeed.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 9:55 AM on March 1 [29 favorites]
It is also why I come back time and time again to the tone of coverage, especially in the New York Times. We know what happens when the American establishment wants something: We get coverage like what happened in the run up to the invasion of Iraq in 2002-3. And we know what it looks like when they don't want something: Coverage looks like it did during the Obamacare legislative process or when they were drumming Biden out of the race. Either way, it's wall to wall. Pretensions of objectivity are barely maintained, if at all. Editorial framing abounds in straight news stories. But the key thing is that the coverage is absolutely wall to wall. As somebodyput it once, the "mighty Wurlitzer" gets cranked up. There is nothing subtle about it at all.
Interestingly, we also know what it looks like when the establishment wants the focus and attention of the people distracted from something. The example here is Chandra Levy after Bush/Gore 2000.
The takeaway here is that until one of these things happens, pro, con (or mass distraction), the attitude of the establishment should be regarded as effectively unconcerned. It's not so much that things are going according to plan -- I think conspiracy thinking is a crutch for people who cannot handle the uncertainty Internet in reality -- it's more that whatever is happening works well enough. That collectively the establishment does not feel their interests are threatened by these developments.
All of that said, yes, EmpressCallipygos, I do find it strange and disturbing. Ronnie Ray-Gun is surely convulsing in his putrefacted grave. Wolverines, indeed.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 9:55 AM on March 1 [29 favorites]
The day Trump got elected for the second time was, I think, one of the most beautiful in Vladimir Poutine's life.
posted by nicolin at 10:09 AM on March 1 [3 favorites]
posted by nicolin at 10:09 AM on March 1 [3 favorites]
You know this site is full of gen Xers because we're looking at the outcome of both the US and Russia moving to the hard right as a direct result of the US winning the cold war, destroying Soviet civil society, and securing sole global hegemony, and concluding that the problem was that we just weren't xenophobic enough.
posted by jy4m at 10:11 AM on March 1 [9 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 10:11 AM on March 1 [9 favorites]
yes all of this is xenophobia! Nothing to do with a violent unprovoked territory grabbing invasion of a european state by an expansionist power! nothing bad has ever come from such an action in the last 700 years
posted by lalochezia at 10:16 AM on March 1 [25 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 10:16 AM on March 1 [25 favorites]
My Gen X/Cold War credentials are impeccable. But nothing about this feels discordant to me. Trump and Putin are cut from the same cloth. It makes sense that they would make common cause.
American history is now divided into the pre-Trump and post-Trump eras. And in twenty years, there will be college graduates who have no memory of the former.
posted by Lemkin at 10:22 AM on March 1 [14 favorites]
American history is now divided into the pre-Trump and post-Trump eras. And in twenty years, there will be college graduates who have no memory of the former.
posted by Lemkin at 10:22 AM on March 1 [14 favorites]
"There are at the present time two great nations in the world, which started from different points, but seem to tend towards the same end. I allude to the Russians and the Anglo-Americans. Both of them have grown up unnoticed; and while the attention of mankind was directed elsewhere, they have suddenly placed themselves in the front rank among the nations, and the world learned their existence and their greatness at almost the same time.
All other nations seem to have nearly reached the limits which nature has assigned to their growth, but these are still in the act of development. All others have stopped, or continue to advance with difficulty; these are proceeding with ease and celerity along a path to which no limit can yet be perceived.
The Anglo-American relies upon personal interest to accomplish his ends and gives free scope to the unguided strength and common sense of the people; the Russian centers all the authority of society in a single arm. The principal instrument of the former is freedom; of the latter, servitude. Their points of departure are different, and their courses are not the same; yet each of them seems to be marked out by the will of Heaven to sway the destinies of half the globe."
Alexis de Tocqueville, "Democracy in America" (1840)
posted by Omon Ra at 10:33 AM on March 1 [7 favorites]
All other nations seem to have nearly reached the limits which nature has assigned to their growth, but these are still in the act of development. All others have stopped, or continue to advance with difficulty; these are proceeding with ease and celerity along a path to which no limit can yet be perceived.
The Anglo-American relies upon personal interest to accomplish his ends and gives free scope to the unguided strength and common sense of the people; the Russian centers all the authority of society in a single arm. The principal instrument of the former is freedom; of the latter, servitude. Their points of departure are different, and their courses are not the same; yet each of them seems to be marked out by the will of Heaven to sway the destinies of half the globe."
Alexis de Tocqueville, "Democracy in America" (1840)
posted by Omon Ra at 10:33 AM on March 1 [7 favorites]
I am GenX, but I am also an Indian immigrant and so did not grow up steeped in Reaganite ideology.
If I support Ukraine today, it is not because of your appeal to Cold War nostalgia or any such foolishness.
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:39 AM on March 1 [17 favorites]
If I support Ukraine today, it is not because of your appeal to Cold War nostalgia or any such foolishness.
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:39 AM on March 1 [17 favorites]
See, that's exactly what I mean. Tocqueville was writing of societies premised on -- and I'm being literal here -- slavery and serfdom, respectively. To present his analysis of the national character of the two countries as if it were accurate then and still bears out nearly two centuries later is pure nationalist self-soothing. Abandon your enlightened crusade against the barbarian horde of the east or shrivel up in the 20th century. There are actual problems to solve.
posted by jy4m at 10:50 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 10:50 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
If I support Ukraine today, it is not because of your appeal to Cold War nostalgia or any such foolishness.
If you got the impression that I was making an appeal to "Cold War Nostalgia," then I SEVERELY mis-spoke, and I apologize for the confusion. My statement was more a comment on how so many of the same leaders who are supporting Putin today were trash-talking men just like Putin just 20-30 years ago, and marveling that they themselves either can't see that this is what they're doing, or that they're so brazenly hypocritical.
I think you'll find that the majority of people here who support Ukraine are doing so for the same reason you likely are doing so - because it's the right thing to do, for pity's sake.
While I realize that the Cold War generation is dying out, I cannot believe that certain people—older Boomers and younger WWIIers— still in positions of authority and influence but currently outside the federal government don't feel this is an utter betrayal of the last 70 years of effort.
My father, thank goodness, is a Boomer who stayed a lefty his whole life; my hunch has always been that it's because he was a designer of nuclear subs during the 60s and 70s, and thus learned some nuclear state secrets before anyone else did and it scared him to death. He and my mother are both strikingly more progressive than any of my aunts or uncles.
One of the saddest things I've ever heard my father say is something he said in passing about midway through Trump's first administration: "I grew up thinking that America was the greatest country in the world....but I don't think that any more."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:35 AM on March 1 [32 favorites]
If you got the impression that I was making an appeal to "Cold War Nostalgia," then I SEVERELY mis-spoke, and I apologize for the confusion. My statement was more a comment on how so many of the same leaders who are supporting Putin today were trash-talking men just like Putin just 20-30 years ago, and marveling that they themselves either can't see that this is what they're doing, or that they're so brazenly hypocritical.
I think you'll find that the majority of people here who support Ukraine are doing so for the same reason you likely are doing so - because it's the right thing to do, for pity's sake.
While I realize that the Cold War generation is dying out, I cannot believe that certain people—older Boomers and younger WWIIers— still in positions of authority and influence but currently outside the federal government don't feel this is an utter betrayal of the last 70 years of effort.
My father, thank goodness, is a Boomer who stayed a lefty his whole life; my hunch has always been that it's because he was a designer of nuclear subs during the 60s and 70s, and thus learned some nuclear state secrets before anyone else did and it scared him to death. He and my mother are both strikingly more progressive than any of my aunts or uncles.
One of the saddest things I've ever heard my father say is something he said in passing about midway through Trump's first administration: "I grew up thinking that America was the greatest country in the world....but I don't think that any more."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:35 AM on March 1 [32 favorites]
is it me or is the US cozying up to Russia just unbelievably bizarre on an emotional level?
EC... absolutely... my cognitive dissonance is loud having grown up on Cold War and nuclear holocaust movies
There are actual problems to solve
jy4m... yes, like an oppressive/aggressive foreign state interfering in American politics via one or more Russian assets and a wide-ranging propaganda campaign... this is definitely chickens coming home to roost levels of karma but I'm still surprised how quickly the switch has flipped and how easily the pills are being swallowed by the media
posted by kokaku at 11:38 AM on March 1 [7 favorites]
EC... absolutely... my cognitive dissonance is loud having grown up on Cold War and nuclear holocaust movies
There are actual problems to solve
jy4m... yes, like an oppressive/aggressive foreign state interfering in American politics via one or more Russian assets and a wide-ranging propaganda campaign... this is definitely chickens coming home to roost levels of karma but I'm still surprised how quickly the switch has flipped and how easily the pills are being swallowed by the media
posted by kokaku at 11:38 AM on March 1 [7 favorites]
"What scares me most is the idea that "free and fair elections" aren't enough to keep a democratic country reasonably sane anymore."
We have never had free and fair elections. Not really. And since Citizens United was decided, the idea of fair elections is utterly laughable.
posted by JohnFromGR at 11:58 AM on March 1 [17 favorites]
We have never had free and fair elections. Not really. And since Citizens United was decided, the idea of fair elections is utterly laughable.
posted by JohnFromGR at 11:58 AM on March 1 [17 favorites]
I'm really notooking forward to all of US social media being awash in Russian psyops campaigns again.
I was talking about this with my mom, after Trump was elected again. It was like everyone forgot how OPENLY divided the country was under Trump, how MAGAs were yelling at doctors and spitting on essential workers in the pandemic, and all the other crazy stuff that was happening.
"I think people just got tired of it," she said.
And I said no, what happened was that the Biden admin prioritized fighting back against Russian cyber warfare. They went after crypto, the main way that cyber warfare was paid for. They seized Russian assets after Russia invaded Ukraine. They arrested people for being foreign agents. They worked with the social media companies until "only X/Twitter" could be used in the same way that all of the socials had been used from 2013 to 2021.
And it didn't get people out of the MAGA cult - domestic right-wing news worked hard to keep them there - but it did dial back the uncontained craziness, the daily encounters with people taking their online conditioning straight to the "enemy" aka their fellow citizens.
Are we going back to that level of noise? I'm afraid we are. I'm afraid that the consensus to resist among the left that's been - all things considered - fairly uniform and focused on what we all agree (that this is a coup by a fascist authoritarian billionaire oligarch class) will be erroded by a fresh onslaught funded by once again by totally unregulated crypto.
posted by subdee at 12:00 PM on March 1 [24 favorites]
I was talking about this with my mom, after Trump was elected again. It was like everyone forgot how OPENLY divided the country was under Trump, how MAGAs were yelling at doctors and spitting on essential workers in the pandemic, and all the other crazy stuff that was happening.
"I think people just got tired of it," she said.
And I said no, what happened was that the Biden admin prioritized fighting back against Russian cyber warfare. They went after crypto, the main way that cyber warfare was paid for. They seized Russian assets after Russia invaded Ukraine. They arrested people for being foreign agents. They worked with the social media companies until "only X/Twitter" could be used in the same way that all of the socials had been used from 2013 to 2021.
And it didn't get people out of the MAGA cult - domestic right-wing news worked hard to keep them there - but it did dial back the uncontained craziness, the daily encounters with people taking their online conditioning straight to the "enemy" aka their fellow citizens.
Are we going back to that level of noise? I'm afraid we are. I'm afraid that the consensus to resist among the left that's been - all things considered - fairly uniform and focused on what we all agree (that this is a coup by a fascist authoritarian billionaire oligarch class) will be erroded by a fresh onslaught funded by once again by totally unregulated crypto.
posted by subdee at 12:00 PM on March 1 [24 favorites]
And of course they gave those commands to stop blocking Russian cyber attacks verbally. Of course they did. They don't want what they are doing anywhere in writing because they know how much it makes them look like they are working for Russia, which they are.
posted by subdee at 12:04 PM on March 1 [11 favorites]
posted by subdee at 12:04 PM on March 1 [11 favorites]
This conversation has been intriguing so far, but as someone involved in fending off cyberattacks (thankfully more small scale than nation state so far), I don’t think people really get the scope of how screwed we are here. This is the security version of the wildfires around Los Angeles a month or so ago. The cyber security people I keep track of are basically freaking out 10 ways to Sunday right this moment, especially with the dismantling of the federal agencies that cover technology and computer security, and the placement of terribly incompetent leaders with questionable allegiances.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 12:12 PM on March 1 [29 favorites]
posted by rambling wanderlust at 12:12 PM on March 1 [29 favorites]
It took the better part of a century for the effects of the printing press to engulf Europe in blood. It won't take the internet quite that long, and it won't be contained. Buckle up.
posted by rikschell at 12:29 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 12:29 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
It doesn't matter why Donald Krasnov is aligned with Putin. He is, after all, just one man. We have a horde of billionaires (not all of them, but a pretty large number) lined up with him.
"Democracy is not compatible with my freedom" - Peter Thiel. Old friend of Mark and Elon.
3 government structures fought in the 20th century, all based on how do you motivate an entire country to fight a war. Communism, Democracy and Fascism.
If you couldn't motivate your population to fight and die for the country, you got overrun.
The cold war was then a proxy economic battle between the two standing options. Communism lost.
China basically turned Fascist. It economically exploded, as it had a huge popularion, stable enough politics, and lots of people willing to prop it up. The billionaires then looked over at China and realized "I can be a billionaire without democracy".
So now billionaires are dismantling democracy.
The kleptocrats of Moscow and Peter Theil are playing the same game. Moscow is just a few years ahead.
posted by NotAYakk at 1:05 PM on March 1 [10 favorites]
"Democracy is not compatible with my freedom" - Peter Thiel. Old friend of Mark and Elon.
3 government structures fought in the 20th century, all based on how do you motivate an entire country to fight a war. Communism, Democracy and Fascism.
If you couldn't motivate your population to fight and die for the country, you got overrun.
The cold war was then a proxy economic battle between the two standing options. Communism lost.
China basically turned Fascist. It economically exploded, as it had a huge popularion, stable enough politics, and lots of people willing to prop it up. The billionaires then looked over at China and realized "I can be a billionaire without democracy".
So now billionaires are dismantling democracy.
The kleptocrats of Moscow and Peter Theil are playing the same game. Moscow is just a few years ahead.
posted by NotAYakk at 1:05 PM on March 1 [10 favorites]
As the children of immigrants escaping the Islamic Revolution in Iran, the idea that either side of the Cold War was morally committed to any particular ideology is laughable. The power hungry will claim anything that works for them, whether it’s democracy, communism, capitalism, or religion. It’s all propaganda in the end.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 1:07 PM on March 1 [19 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 1:07 PM on March 1 [19 favorites]
The order does not apply to the National Security Agency, which Haugh also leads, or its signals intelligence work targeting Russia, the sources said.
THANK THE GODS. I'm assuredly reassured that we still have the capability to spy the living s*** out of them.
No mention of the NRO.
he could be lying.
it could be seen as a symbolic gesture to rain in the horns between the United States and Russia. (bah-ha)
Someone should create a flyer and send it to all our veterans who fought in Vietnam that the president is now cozy enough to a country that once sought their demise.
posted by clavdivs at 1:46 PM on March 1 [2 favorites]
THANK THE GODS. I'm assuredly reassured that we still have the capability to spy the living s*** out of them.
No mention of the NRO.
he could be lying.
it could be seen as a symbolic gesture to rain in the horns between the United States and Russia. (bah-ha)
Someone should create a flyer and send it to all our veterans who fought in Vietnam that the president is now cozy enough to a country that once sought their demise.
posted by clavdivs at 1:46 PM on March 1 [2 favorites]
How the heck was it not obvious that the US became a client state of Russia the moment Trump won? For months or years the right wing media machine has been sowing uncertainty about Ukraine/Zelensky and glorifying Russia -- for example, does anyone remember Hannity going there and declaring it heaven on earth? And the fact that Trump is severely compromised by Russian interests and has probably been groomed to be an un-self aware agent for decades was talked about even during the first Trump term. None of this new. None of it. And it was "hidden" in plain daylight all along.
I fear this is just one phase of planned -- and vocally, fairly transparently so -- rollout
posted by treepour at 1:58 PM on March 1 [13 favorites]
I fear this is just one phase of planned -- and vocally, fairly transparently so -- rollout
posted by treepour at 1:58 PM on March 1 [13 favorites]
is it me or is the US cozying up to Russia just unbelievably bizarre on an emotional level?
The Republicans in Reagan's time sought power through statecraft and bureaucracy, and the cold war with Russia was a state war with a handy dichotomy to frame it: communist vs capitalist. Communism in Russia fell to be replaced with capitalism on steroids: oligarchy and plutocracy. Republicans look at state-supported oligarchy and think "oh wow that's great, we can use the state to just take all the money and power!".
But it wasn't until someone came along with the complete lack of shame to make that happen, one Donald Trump. Trump's wins, both times, were close but luck has been on his side. And that's where we are now, because if you don't put the brakes on capitalism, it will drag a nation down to oligarchy and plutocracy. I think we will be able to put the brakes on Trump and his evil administration, but he's going to cause a lot of damage in the meantime. And America needs to ask itself if it is a state responsive to the people or an oligarchy that kowtows to the One God Above All: Wall Street corporations and shareholders.
posted by zardoz at 2:04 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
The Republicans in Reagan's time sought power through statecraft and bureaucracy, and the cold war with Russia was a state war with a handy dichotomy to frame it: communist vs capitalist. Communism in Russia fell to be replaced with capitalism on steroids: oligarchy and plutocracy. Republicans look at state-supported oligarchy and think "oh wow that's great, we can use the state to just take all the money and power!".
But it wasn't until someone came along with the complete lack of shame to make that happen, one Donald Trump. Trump's wins, both times, were close but luck has been on his side. And that's where we are now, because if you don't put the brakes on capitalism, it will drag a nation down to oligarchy and plutocracy. I think we will be able to put the brakes on Trump and his evil administration, but he's going to cause a lot of damage in the meantime. And America needs to ask itself if it is a state responsive to the people or an oligarchy that kowtows to the One God Above All: Wall Street corporations and shareholders.
posted by zardoz at 2:04 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
THANK THE GODS. I'm assuredly reassured that we still have the capability to spy the living s*** out of them.
No mention of the NRO.
I’m not sure if there’s any sarcasm here but I will be obtuse and say our own intel is probably only a piece of the puzzle and if we are knowingly letting their various Bears get all up in our networks I have a feeling the quality of intel we’ll see through our Five Eyes partners may be about to take a nose dive because of loss of trust. I have no expertise here at all, this is pure knee jerk reaction.
posted by eirias at 2:17 PM on March 1 [2 favorites]
No mention of the NRO.
I’m not sure if there’s any sarcasm here but I will be obtuse and say our own intel is probably only a piece of the puzzle and if we are knowingly letting their various Bears get all up in our networks I have a feeling the quality of intel we’ll see through our Five Eyes partners may be about to take a nose dive because of loss of trust. I have no expertise here at all, this is pure knee jerk reaction.
posted by eirias at 2:17 PM on March 1 [2 favorites]
The power hungry will claim anything that works for them, whether it’s democracy, communism, capitalism, or religion. It’s all propaganda in the end.
Precisely. And that's why I have no cognitive dissonance over these developments.
Oceania has always been... etc.
posted by Lemkin at 3:22 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
Precisely. And that's why I have no cognitive dissonance over these developments.
Oceania has always been... etc.
posted by Lemkin at 3:22 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
Smedly, could you perhaps just write out the comments I'd like to send in as you have hit my exact thoughts and express them so much better than I possibly could ; )
This is freaking terrifying. Basically saying Putin and little green men, you may now do anything you want with US Society. Thanks for coming!
I'm baffled at the idea that there is NO-ONE in the NatSec world who will not push back hard against this capitulation. All these America 'love it or leave it' types are all ok with this?
I guess it's Trump is Infallible for his worshippers, including those formerly engaged to protect the nation.
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:22 PM on March 1 [8 favorites]
This is freaking terrifying. Basically saying Putin and little green men, you may now do anything you want with US Society. Thanks for coming!
I'm baffled at the idea that there is NO-ONE in the NatSec world who will not push back hard against this capitulation. All these America 'love it or leave it' types are all ok with this?
I guess it's Trump is Infallible for his worshippers, including those formerly engaged to protect the nation.
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:22 PM on March 1 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I have some infosec leanings and this is Peter Venkman levels of baaaaaad.
posted by wenestvedt at 3:55 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
posted by wenestvedt at 3:55 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
Is it me or is the US cozying up to Russia just unbelievably bizarre on an emotional level?
No. While obviously there’s some continuity (Putin having been of if I recall correctly a mid level KGB functionary, and the current Russian plutocrats had to have already had some power to capitalize on when the Soviet Union fell), politically and economically current-day Russia is very much not communist Soviet Union. Russia was re-made in the image of the IMF during its worst, most rapacious and colonialist period, which enabled those who currently run Russia to gain more power through entirely Western capitalist mechanisms. There’s been a bit of Stalinist-era tactics in Putin’s own consolidation of power, but it’s quite in line with eg. the whole robber baron era of the US (that we’ve been slowly returning to since the 1980s).
Short summary: conflating the old Soviet Union with current Russia is very much a category error.
posted by eviemath at 4:07 PM on March 1 [9 favorites]
No. While obviously there’s some continuity (Putin having been of if I recall correctly a mid level KGB functionary, and the current Russian plutocrats had to have already had some power to capitalize on when the Soviet Union fell), politically and economically current-day Russia is very much not communist Soviet Union. Russia was re-made in the image of the IMF during its worst, most rapacious and colonialist period, which enabled those who currently run Russia to gain more power through entirely Western capitalist mechanisms. There’s been a bit of Stalinist-era tactics in Putin’s own consolidation of power, but it’s quite in line with eg. the whole robber baron era of the US (that we’ve been slowly returning to since the 1980s).
Short summary: conflating the old Soviet Union with current Russia is very much a category error.
posted by eviemath at 4:07 PM on March 1 [9 favorites]
Kind of like if someone in the middle of the last century was like, “hey, all of our European monarchies used to be so tight with Tzar Nicholas, intermarrying and putting down peasant revolts in between gentlemanly wars. Why are our governments so opposed to the Soviet Union now?”
posted by eviemath at 4:11 PM on March 1 [5 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:11 PM on March 1 [5 favorites]
oh god all my 'anti-imperialist' acquaintances are going to have opinions about this aren't they
I mean, speaking as an anti-imperialist, my opinion continues to be that American imperialism and Russian imperialism are both bad! And that one set of monsters turning off all their protections against another set of monsters is both extremely dangerous and hilariously funny!
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:12 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
I mean, speaking as an anti-imperialist, my opinion continues to be that American imperialism and Russian imperialism are both bad! And that one set of monsters turning off all their protections against another set of monsters is both extremely dangerous and hilariously funny!
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:12 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
On the whole I agree with you eviemath, but in the USSR days we very often still talked about 'the Russians' because it was Russian dominated and kind of still the old Empire. So I'm prepared to allow this on similar grounds, if we're just talking about the illogical world of feelings.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:12 PM on March 1
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:12 PM on March 1
Oceania has always been... etc.
Is it alarming or just plain weird to anyone else that the exact geopolitical divisions of 1984 are the ones intentionally being erected? Sure, it was a reasonable extrapolation for Orwell but it was so on the nose.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 4:42 PM on March 1 [4 favorites]
Is it alarming or just plain weird to anyone else that the exact geopolitical divisions of 1984 are the ones intentionally being erected? Sure, it was a reasonable extrapolation for Orwell but it was so on the nose.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 4:42 PM on March 1 [4 favorites]
I mean, speaking as an anti-imperialist, my opinion continues to be that American imperialism and Russian imperialism are both bad! And that one set of monsters turning off all their protections against another set of monsters is both extremely dangerous and hilariously funny!
"You won't like what comes after
America"
Leonard Cohen
posted by lalochezia at 5:02 PM on March 1 [13 favorites]
"You won't like what comes after
America"
Leonard Cohen
posted by lalochezia at 5:02 PM on March 1 [13 favorites]
"say our own intel is probably only a piece of the puzzle and if we are knowingly letting their various Bears get all up in our networks I have a feeling the quality of intel we’ll see through our Five Eyes partners"
if the 5th eye fails
there is another.
there are certain secrets that the United States keeps that is even beyond the purview of the president of the United States. there is a Wikipedia page about it.
question is, woild a flag officer or such divulge secrets if the president requested them when he has no business really seeing them.
after the second world war, the intelligence networks of the United States branched out at one point, United States had and has so many various agencies in the state, federal local level that someone genius decided to create a department Homeland security which just removed some of the insular nature of the various departments and it effect suborned it to the military. the various fights between the FBI and CIA in the 50s 60s and into the seventies- 80s and the '90s also going to 2000 are notorious.
historically, trying to radicalize United States military in a relative time of Peace has always been a bad move. just ask smedley.
historically, in modern times, the closest thing America has ever come to, well, a Caesar would have been Douglas MacArthur. the man could have had anything he wanted with all the money and love of the American people. I do believe we live in a time what I call outside of History which means that various entities can pick and choose historical facts and or thesis to support an argument as long as it's within 60 characters with little or no resistance if refuted or even discussed.
posted by clavdivs at 5:03 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
if the 5th eye fails
there is another.
there are certain secrets that the United States keeps that is even beyond the purview of the president of the United States. there is a Wikipedia page about it.
question is, woild a flag officer or such divulge secrets if the president requested them when he has no business really seeing them.
after the second world war, the intelligence networks of the United States branched out at one point, United States had and has so many various agencies in the state, federal local level that someone genius decided to create a department Homeland security which just removed some of the insular nature of the various departments and it effect suborned it to the military. the various fights between the FBI and CIA in the 50s 60s and into the seventies- 80s and the '90s also going to 2000 are notorious.
historically, trying to radicalize United States military in a relative time of Peace has always been a bad move. just ask smedley.
historically, in modern times, the closest thing America has ever come to, well, a Caesar would have been Douglas MacArthur. the man could have had anything he wanted with all the money and love of the American people. I do believe we live in a time what I call outside of History which means that various entities can pick and choose historical facts and or thesis to support an argument as long as it's within 60 characters with little or no resistance if refuted or even discussed.
posted by clavdivs at 5:03 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
Clavdivs, whats the wikipedia page? I’m interested.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:04 PM on March 1 [4 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:04 PM on March 1 [4 favorites]
Someone should create a flyer and send it to all our veterans who fought in Vietnam that the president is now cozy enough to a country that once sought their demise.
1939-1945: the Allies airlifted kilotons of TNT and napalm onto Berlin.
1948: the Allies airlifted kilotons of food and basic humanitarian supplies into Berlin.
History takes weird turns.
posted by Sauce Trough at 8:58 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
1939-1945: the Allies airlifted kilotons of TNT and napalm onto Berlin.
1948: the Allies airlifted kilotons of food and basic humanitarian supplies into Berlin.
History takes weird turns.
posted by Sauce Trough at 8:58 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
The Trump-Russia thing reminds me of how Charles II spent the 1660s and 1670s fighting the Dutch and being an ally of Bourbon France. Everyone was like "This is crazy! Your natural interest is to ally with your fellow Protestants as a counterweight to the massive expansive Catholic monarchy right next door. Weird." Well, funny thing, it turned out he was secretly getting a massive pension from France. When his brother James II decided to say the quiet part loud and tried to actually turn England Catholic they chucked him out in the Glorious Revolution and immediately went back to fighting France for another 150 years (King William's wars, War of Spanish Succession, Seven Years War, Napoleonic Wars) until Germany became the bigger enemy, and then they fought Germany (WWI and WWII) until Russia became the bigger enemy (Cold War), and that brings us up to today.
The lesson I'm tempted to draw is: for whatever psychological or financial reasons Trump is pro-Russia. But it's hard to kick against the geopolitical pricks, and great power rivalry between the US and Russia will probably survive him. Favoring Russia has probably cost Trump politically at the margins, though not enough to make a big difference, and may cost him further.
But of course I also believe that history is noisy and bouncy and the patterns legible in retrospect can't be predicted in advance. Also none of those English and Dutch and French and Prussian and so on dudes had nukes.
posted by sy at 6:06 AM on March 2 [7 favorites]
The lesson I'm tempted to draw is: for whatever psychological or financial reasons Trump is pro-Russia. But it's hard to kick against the geopolitical pricks, and great power rivalry between the US and Russia will probably survive him. Favoring Russia has probably cost Trump politically at the margins, though not enough to make a big difference, and may cost him further.
But of course I also believe that history is noisy and bouncy and the patterns legible in retrospect can't be predicted in advance. Also none of those English and Dutch and French and Prussian and so on dudes had nukes.
posted by sy at 6:06 AM on March 2 [7 favorites]
Also none of those English and Dutch and French and Prussian and so on dudes had nukes.
No. Just huge armies. And blood on the battlefield.
posted by valkane at 7:04 AM on March 2 [1 favorite]
No. Just huge armies. And blood on the battlefield.
posted by valkane at 7:04 AM on March 2 [1 favorite]
As lalochezia quoted, check out Leonard Cohen : "... what comes after America" from 9 years ago, not sure where the origina interview is, or what context this version rempoves in all those quotes.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:01 AM on March 2
posted by jeffburdges at 11:01 AM on March 2
What Is Coming 2.16.03 in The Flame (2018) by Leonard Cohen
posted by jeffburdges at 11:18 AM on March 2 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 11:18 AM on March 2 [1 favorite]
This is less changing sides and more throwing open the city gates for an attacker.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:20 PM on March 2 [4 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:20 PM on March 2 [4 favorites]
U.S. Defense Secretary Warns Mexico of U.S Military Action Over Cartel Collusion
Trump wants denuclearization talks with Russia and China, hopes for defense spending cuts
Making Sense of Trump’s Talk of ‘Denuclearization’
US government tries to rehire nuclear staff it fired days ago
French nuclear shield could extend across Europe (not sure nucelar armed jets do much in that scenario)
posted by jeffburdges at 8:13 AM on March 3 [4 favorites]
Trump wants denuclearization talks with Russia and China, hopes for defense spending cuts
Making Sense of Trump’s Talk of ‘Denuclearization’
US government tries to rehire nuclear staff it fired days ago
French nuclear shield could extend across Europe (not sure nucelar armed jets do much in that scenario)
posted by jeffburdges at 8:13 AM on March 3 [4 favorites]
Trump wants denuclearization talks with Russia and China
This is the equivalent of surrendering soldiers tossing their rifles into a pile, except half the prisoners are cheering because they were told they won.
posted by CynicalKnight at 1:59 PM on March 3 [1 favorite]
This is the equivalent of surrendering soldiers tossing their rifles into a pile, except half the prisoners are cheering because they were told they won.
posted by CynicalKnight at 1:59 PM on March 3 [1 favorite]
Trump hasn't deorbited the spy satellites yet. lol
posted by jeffburdges at 2:03 PM on March 3
posted by jeffburdges at 2:03 PM on March 3
I'm baffled at the idea that there is NO-ONE in the NatSec world who will not push back hard against this capitulation.This has baffled me from the start. I imagined that the intelligence community, federal law enforcement, the State Department, etc. would do something to defend their own prerogatives, but it looks like it's been almost complete capitulation. It's like the so-called deep state as a self-perpetuating entity decided to abolish itself more or less overnight. Totally surreal.
posted by heteronym at 2:34 PM on March 3 [5 favorites]
Clavdivs, whats the wikipedia page? I’m interested.
"It's ambiguous but here is a good read.
"What remains out of the sitting president’s purview is the ability to declassify nuclear information, which is determined by law written by Congress, according to Rudesill, who has previously worked in government for the U.S. intelligence community and held a high-level security clearance."
Donald Trump's disclosures of classified information.
and the wiki page on classified information.
posted by clavdivs at 2:44 PM on March 3 [1 favorite]
"It's ambiguous but here is a good read.
"What remains out of the sitting president’s purview is the ability to declassify nuclear information, which is determined by law written by Congress, according to Rudesill, who has previously worked in government for the U.S. intelligence community and held a high-level security clearance."
Donald Trump's disclosures of classified information.
and the wiki page on classified information.
posted by clavdivs at 2:44 PM on March 3 [1 favorite]
Anyone think TFG's Presidential immunity wouldn't extend to sharing classified documents? Or that he'd see even one day in jail before he dies if they did charge and convict him?
posted by Mitheral at 3:01 PM on March 3 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 3:01 PM on March 3 [1 favorite]
Zero chance the "deep state" abolishes itself. They'll serve this administration's interests, likely more internal repression than external intelligence. I suppose they give Peter Theil ever bigger contracts, while doing some layoffs and throwing under the bus some less influential contractors.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:31 PM on March 3 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 3:31 PM on March 3 [1 favorite]
Zero chance the "deep state" abolishes itself. They'll serve this administration's interests, likely more internal repression than external intelligence.
Wow this is insulting. Did you ever consider the fact that the "deep state" maybe doesn't actually exist? I know people who work in adjacent fields (FBI, State, etc), they are good normal people who most definitely did not vote for this shit. They are as horrified as anyone else, and now get to look forward to a lifetime of homelessness and unemployment thanks to DOGE too.
The civil servants aren't your enemies, they have enough on their plate right now and are suffering hard. Save your anger for the traitor in the WH.
posted by photo guy at 10:07 PM on March 3 [6 favorites]
Wow this is insulting. Did you ever consider the fact that the "deep state" maybe doesn't actually exist? I know people who work in adjacent fields (FBI, State, etc), they are good normal people who most definitely did not vote for this shit. They are as horrified as anyone else, and now get to look forward to a lifetime of homelessness and unemployment thanks to DOGE too.
The civil servants aren't your enemies, they have enough on their plate right now and are suffering hard. Save your anger for the traitor in the WH.
posted by photo guy at 10:07 PM on March 3 [6 favorites]
The civil servants aren't our enemies, but the cops and intelligence personnel definitely are.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:20 PM on March 3 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:20 PM on March 3 [3 favorites]
Yes because ACAB was clearly such a winning strategy that so many Americans support. Glad to see there are so many people out there who have learned absolutely nothing from the past few years.
Do you actually know any federal law enforcement agents? I know and have worked with quite a few. They run the gamut and include people who work on cases involving cybercrime, sex trafficking, CSAM, drug trafficking, etc. I'm not really sure how people fighting sex crimes are your enemy but you do you I guess. Many of them have been directly targeted by Trump for doing their job, and are being targeted by DOGE on top of that.
Stay classy MeFi. Guess I should've followed through and deleted my account after all.
posted by photo guy at 8:06 AM on March 4 [5 favorites]
Do you actually know any federal law enforcement agents? I know and have worked with quite a few. They run the gamut and include people who work on cases involving cybercrime, sex trafficking, CSAM, drug trafficking, etc. I'm not really sure how people fighting sex crimes are your enemy but you do you I guess. Many of them have been directly targeted by Trump for doing their job, and are being targeted by DOGE on top of that.
Stay classy MeFi. Guess I should've followed through and deleted my account after all.
posted by photo guy at 8:06 AM on March 4 [5 favorites]
Wow this is insulting. Did you ever consider the fact that the "deep state" maybe doesn't actually exist? I know people who work in adjacent fields (FBI, State, etc),
the deep state is an ambiguous term. they are not the rotary club, they don't meet at the local restaurant on Tuesdays for lunch.
first of all we're going to separate employees from the state department, FBI DOT workers etc. from the entities or corporations that provide services to Federal, state, local level municipalities. building projects, pharmaceutical, energy production, agriculture, A power structure is a nation's ability to build and rebuild in a private capacity while operating with government oversight however efficient that may be. a very crude example of this would be ancient Egypt's separation between those who built the pyramids and the Pharoahnic power structure, while absolute, it was intersected between religious entities and civil entities.
intelligence agencies and police agencies are civil servants but I understand the differentiation.
Jeff and I will never see eye to eye on the need for a police or an intelligence agency perhaps we have come to an agreement of what those agencies should do in a more.... different world.
took me about 25 seconds to find two links to support his thesis. I'm not going to publish it cuz it's common knowledge whether we label something a deep state or whatever is really just a matter of definition. so jeff, I'm going to send the links to you cuz I figured you get a kick out of it.
between 1990 and 2020 the United States and broil itself and one of the largest schemes to make itself energy independent and assertive military power around the world under the moral agency of promoting democracy and freedom.
30 years War was a collection of furniture, blurred border lines, and dead aristocratic who ha in comparison.
posted by clavdivs at 3:23 PM on March 4 [1 favorite]
the deep state is an ambiguous term. they are not the rotary club, they don't meet at the local restaurant on Tuesdays for lunch.
first of all we're going to separate employees from the state department, FBI DOT workers etc. from the entities or corporations that provide services to Federal, state, local level municipalities. building projects, pharmaceutical, energy production, agriculture, A power structure is a nation's ability to build and rebuild in a private capacity while operating with government oversight however efficient that may be. a very crude example of this would be ancient Egypt's separation between those who built the pyramids and the Pharoahnic power structure, while absolute, it was intersected between religious entities and civil entities.
intelligence agencies and police agencies are civil servants but I understand the differentiation.
Jeff and I will never see eye to eye on the need for a police or an intelligence agency perhaps we have come to an agreement of what those agencies should do in a more.... different world.
took me about 25 seconds to find two links to support his thesis. I'm not going to publish it cuz it's common knowledge whether we label something a deep state or whatever is really just a matter of definition. so jeff, I'm going to send the links to you cuz I figured you get a kick out of it.
between 1990 and 2020 the United States and broil itself and one of the largest schemes to make itself energy independent and assertive military power around the world under the moral agency of promoting democracy and freedom.
30 years War was a collection of furniture, blurred border lines, and dead aristocratic who ha in comparison.
posted by clavdivs at 3:23 PM on March 4 [1 favorite]
As I understand it, "deep state" comes from the politics of Türkiye where a coalition of senior people across the military and elsewhere kept civilian politicians in check. Not the army, not the judiciary, not the intelligence services as a whole, but select people with a shared ideology and patronage networks.
Then the MAGA/Trump/extreme right repurposed this term (as they often do, see critical race theory and DEI) to denote institutional opposition to their aims. And in doing so, they broadened scope to include every federal worker.
For better or worse, if there is a US deep state in the Turkish sense, it has lost power since the first Trump term or at least hasn't manifested yet.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:55 PM on March 4
Then the MAGA/Trump/extreme right repurposed this term (as they often do, see critical race theory and DEI) to denote institutional opposition to their aims. And in doing so, they broadened scope to include every federal worker.
For better or worse, if there is a US deep state in the Turkish sense, it has lost power since the first Trump term or at least hasn't manifested yet.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:55 PM on March 4
Yes because ACAB was clearly such a winning strategy that so many Americans support.
I'm not interested in sacrificing my principles in order to be popular, sorry!
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:04 PM on March 4 [1 favorite]
I'm not interested in sacrificing my principles in order to be popular, sorry!
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:04 PM on March 4 [1 favorite]
adrienneleigh: that’s both committing to losing and sacrificing your principles, not upholding them. Even in the most affected communities, poll after poll for decades show that large majorities want police: people want them to be professional and accountable but nobody wants to call 911 and not get a response, or go outside and learn that their car is gone. Every time people say ACAB and pat themselves on the back, a Republican strategist smiles in the knowledge that those people are helping his candidates. Sticking to such an unpopular position is the same as saying that you don’t care enough about the people being hurt to make any effort to reduce harm to them, or any of the other groups who’ll be harmed by the same politicians shielding dirty cops.
posted by adamsc at 6:32 PM on March 4
posted by adamsc at 6:32 PM on March 4
people want them to be professional and accountable but nobody wants to call 911 and not get a response, or go outside and learn that their car is gone.
Neither of those things requires "police", as currently constituted. Certainly neither of them requires the empowerment of violent, heavily-armed rage monsters, fully half of whom are domestic abusers, and who hold civilian governments in contempt and consider every non-wealthy citizen a lawful target for whatever abuse they feel like meting out.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:38 PM on March 4 [3 favorites]
Neither of those things requires "police", as currently constituted. Certainly neither of them requires the empowerment of violent, heavily-armed rage monsters, fully half of whom are domestic abusers, and who hold civilian governments in contempt and consider every non-wealthy citizen a lawful target for whatever abuse they feel like meting out.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:38 PM on March 4 [3 favorites]
Again, my point is simply that if you’re calling for something which 70+% of people don’t want, you’re ceding the chance to do something which could actually succeed. There is much less support for domestic abuse, or hyper-violence, or near-complete immunity to consequences for breaking the law, so starting there can actually help the people being hurt by those things. Coalitions have to try moving towards better rather than swinging for the fences and hoping you get lucky.
posted by adamsc at 7:26 PM on March 4
posted by adamsc at 7:26 PM on March 4
It's fine if the term "deep state" gets reclaimed by roughly the original Turkish meaning: "A presumed secret network of military officers and their civilian allies trying to preserve the secular order based on the ideas of [the republic]" (Ataturk in Turkey's case). That's fair.
I've spent time in Istanbul and have Turkish leftists friends & coauthors, including one of Aziz Nesin's sons. I think most consider the "deep state" coups in Turkey as problematic but probably necessary, but unsure how their views shifted when Erdogan cooped the secular "deep state" in Turkey.
I suppose US right-winers do employ the term "deep state" more correctly in the historical sense, while left or centrists who adopted the term like Cory Doctorow really mean "surveillance industrial complex."
Anyways..
Agencies like the FBI and CIA are currently negotiating for their budgets, and for personnel retention, which places them into conflict with the administration. Yet overall, these organizations have always worked towards centralizing power behind American oligarchs, including myriad actions against progressives both in the US and abroad. They'll happily fall into line behind Trump, including whenever he expands surveillance & sabotage from progressives to Democrats.
As for cops, police were never allowed into the "surveillance industrial complex" or "deep state", so all this feels like a derail, but..
Anarchists assert that police are a modern invention, which seems pretty true. Yet, imho this doesn't say police should disapear. We'd like more effective constraints upon their many excesses, but afaik those constraints have typically come from extra structure, so anarchist alternatives feel lacking there.
Anyways, Trump's approval rating still remains above 50%, likely because a recession has not yet hit, but still all those poeple hail from somewhere. Police were less pro-Trump than in 2016, meaning fewer police unions endorced him. Yet overall police unions endorsed Trump. Also they decried pardons by both Biden and Trump together, so rest assured they're still disproportionately represented in the 50% who approve of Trump.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:50 AM on March 5 [2 favorites]
I've spent time in Istanbul and have Turkish leftists friends & coauthors, including one of Aziz Nesin's sons. I think most consider the "deep state" coups in Turkey as problematic but probably necessary, but unsure how their views shifted when Erdogan cooped the secular "deep state" in Turkey.
I suppose US right-winers do employ the term "deep state" more correctly in the historical sense, while left or centrists who adopted the term like Cory Doctorow really mean "surveillance industrial complex."
Anyways..
Agencies like the FBI and CIA are currently negotiating for their budgets, and for personnel retention, which places them into conflict with the administration. Yet overall, these organizations have always worked towards centralizing power behind American oligarchs, including myriad actions against progressives both in the US and abroad. They'll happily fall into line behind Trump, including whenever he expands surveillance & sabotage from progressives to Democrats.
As for cops, police were never allowed into the "surveillance industrial complex" or "deep state", so all this feels like a derail, but..
Anarchists assert that police are a modern invention, which seems pretty true. Yet, imho this doesn't say police should disapear. We'd like more effective constraints upon their many excesses, but afaik those constraints have typically come from extra structure, so anarchist alternatives feel lacking there.
Anyways, Trump's approval rating still remains above 50%, likely because a recession has not yet hit, but still all those poeple hail from somewhere. Police were less pro-Trump than in 2016, meaning fewer police unions endorced him. Yet overall police unions endorsed Trump. Also they decried pardons by both Biden and Trump together, so rest assured they're still disproportionately represented in the 50% who approve of Trump.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:50 AM on March 5 [2 favorites]
"HIMARS GMLRS targeting in Ukraine has been disabled by the Trump administration"
posted by jeffburdges at 1:27 PM on March 5
posted by jeffburdges at 1:27 PM on March 5
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posted by Lemkin at 6:08 AM on March 1 [35 favorites]