The Manipulative Bastards corner is especially interesting
March 11, 2025 1:22 PM Subscribe
You may be wondering: What makes a villain “best”? That, friends, is really up to you. You can vote for the most iconic villains, the most memorable villains, or the most villainous villains. You can vote for the villain you enjoyed reading about the most, or the one that kept you up at night. You can vote for the cutest villain, if that’s your thing. The point is, there are no rules. Villains are rule-breakers, and so are we. from The Best Villains in Literature Bracket: The Not-So-Sweet 16 [LitHub]
If Humbert Humbert doesn't sweep I'm officially becoming a misandrist.
posted by phunniemee at 1:32 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 1:32 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
I wish I had known about the earlier brackets. Will follow until the voting closes.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:33 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 1:33 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Sauron in the Monsters/Bogeymen rather than Manipulative Bastards category is unhinged.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 1:38 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 1:38 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
Lady MacBeth vs Iago! The Shakespearean Dramaverse matchup 400 years in the making.
posted by borborygmi at 1:53 PM on March 11 [8 favorites]
posted by borborygmi at 1:53 PM on March 11 [8 favorites]
And Lecter is more of a bogeyman than a manipulative bastard.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:54 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:54 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
My personal pick for best villain is charming immortal dad-jokester John Gaius, Necrolord Prime, the Kindly Prince of Peace! from the Locked Tomb series (Gideon the Ninth, et al).
posted by Sebmojo at 1:57 PM on March 11 [17 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 1:57 PM on March 11 [17 favorites]
Judge Holden lost to Pennywise and now Pennywise and Kurtz are going head-to-head??? Any ranking that doesn't have Holden and Kurtz duking it out is not to be taken seriously. Harrumph!
posted by treepour at 1:58 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
posted by treepour at 1:58 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
Tyler Perry is going up against Gollum?
Oh, wait...
posted by slkinsey at 2:04 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Oh, wait...
posted by slkinsey at 2:04 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Hal from 2001 should have been on the list.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:06 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:06 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
Sebmojo, good call on John Gaius, he’s a fucking fucker if there ever was one. A death match between Satan and Gaius would be super riveting!
posted by ashbury at 2:10 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
posted by ashbury at 2:10 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
Carrie ??
posted by Faintdreams at 2:13 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
posted by Faintdreams at 2:13 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
Sorry to see General Woundwort knocked out in the first round.
posted by supermedusa at 2:14 PM on March 11 [9 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 2:14 PM on March 11 [9 favorites]
Nurse Ratched and it’s not close.
posted by Lemkin at 2:21 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 2:21 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
strange, my one-eyed cat is not in the runnings
he is a manipulative bastard of a monster who is incredibly authoritative when it comes to his pie hole at meal time
posted by ginger.beef at 2:33 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
he is a manipulative bastard of a monster who is incredibly authoritative when it comes to his pie hole at meal time
posted by ginger.beef at 2:33 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
How does Satan not win it all? I mean…it’s friggin’ Satan.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:33 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 2:33 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
How does Satan not win it all? I mean…it’s friggin’ Satan.
Satan couldn't even win a fiddle playing contest he was the judge of.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:01 PM on March 11 [44 favorites]
Satan couldn't even win a fiddle playing contest he was the judge of.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:01 PM on March 11 [44 favorites]
strange, my one-eyed cat is not in the runnings
he is a manipulative bastard of a monster ...
One-eyed cats are very, very interesting.
Anecdotes I've read about their behavior — including and significantly Eyebrows McGee's stories of her cat Jack — have convinced me they are able to reprogram the parts of their brains which would have been or were dedicated to the functions of the missing eye, and make them a vehicle for abstract thought.
I don't believe this is an ability which is necessarily common among mammals, especially to the degree they can do it, and I think cats come by it in a very unique way which we might be able to emulate — with their 'assistance', so to speak.
And come to think of it as I write this, such an ability probably developed because big, prominent eyes, lots of cat on cat violence, and really sharp claws at the ends of extremely fast and dextrous front paws must have given rise to an abundance of one-eyed cats over evolutionary time.
posted by jamjam at 3:13 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
he is a manipulative bastard of a monster ...
One-eyed cats are very, very interesting.
Anecdotes I've read about their behavior — including and significantly Eyebrows McGee's stories of her cat Jack — have convinced me they are able to reprogram the parts of their brains which would have been or were dedicated to the functions of the missing eye, and make them a vehicle for abstract thought.
I don't believe this is an ability which is necessarily common among mammals, especially to the degree they can do it, and I think cats come by it in a very unique way which we might be able to emulate — with their 'assistance', so to speak.
And come to think of it as I write this, such an ability probably developed because big, prominent eyes, lots of cat on cat violence, and really sharp claws at the ends of extremely fast and dextrous front paws must have given rise to an abundance of one-eyed cats over evolutionary time.
posted by jamjam at 3:13 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
Jeez, I feel like The Judge is way worse than Pennywise. Pennywise is just a giant space spider who eats a bunch of kids once every thirty years and goes back to bed. The Judge got elected president, twice.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:17 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:17 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
I see there's no love for King Claudius.
posted by clavdivs at 4:20 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 4:20 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
O’Brien in a walk.
I feel like I can relate to all(?) the other villains. Not O’Brien. Never him.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 4:43 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
I feel like I can relate to all(?) the other villains. Not O’Brien. Never him.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 4:43 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
Pennywise FTW! Close second to Humbert Humbert though. Great list.
posted by Threeve at 4:53 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
posted by Threeve at 4:53 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
Glaring omission: The greatest mass murderer ever written, Marco Inaros. The numbers don't lie.
posted by whuppy at 4:53 PM on March 11 [7 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 4:53 PM on March 11 [7 favorites]
I find Lector to be perfectly rational. He simply has far fewer inhibitions than most of us...
posted by jim in austin at 5:07 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 5:07 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Glaring omission: The greatest mass murderer ever written, Marco Inaros. The numbers don't lie.
John Gaius kills the entire extant population of Earth and mounts a ten thousand year everwar to find and murder the ones that got away, I'd give him the edge. Plus, he dunks his vanilla wines until they go floppy and tells terrible dad-jokes. No hell too deep enough.
posted by Sebmojo at 6:36 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
John Gaius kills the entire extant population of Earth and mounts a ten thousand year everwar to find and murder the ones that got away, I'd give him the edge. Plus, he dunks his vanilla wines until they go floppy and tells terrible dad-jokes. No hell too deep enough.
posted by Sebmojo at 6:36 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
I am a bit speechless. How do you read Moby Dick and come to the view that the whale is a villain?
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:55 PM on March 11 [9 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:55 PM on March 11 [9 favorites]
Fiasco de Gama the whale (the whole bracket) is anti-villain. My question is Moby Dick loses to Captain Hook how? Just fuck all the way off. (This bracket, not FdG obvs)
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:01 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:01 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
Glaring omission: The greatest mass murderer ever written, Marco Inaros. The numbers don't lie.
John Gaius kills the entire extant population of Earth and mounts a ten thousand year everwar to find and murder the ones that got away, I'd give him the edge
*Paul Atreides has entered the chat*
posted by slimepuppy at 1:26 AM on March 12 [10 favorites]
John Gaius kills the entire extant population of Earth and mounts a ten thousand year everwar to find and murder the ones that got away, I'd give him the edge
*Paul Atreides has entered the chat*
posted by slimepuppy at 1:26 AM on March 12 [10 favorites]
I mean, John Gaius did his murderin' through improper understanding of his powers while trying to kill off Jeff Bezos- and Elon Musk- and Mark Zuckerberg-alikes who are running away from the problems they caused. Now, that being said, he also created eight Planetary Murder Ghosts, so that's kind of a big minus against him, too.
But yeah, once you get into the Atreides-level stuff or the Palpatine-level stuff, John's kind of a piker.
posted by mephron at 5:55 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
But yeah, once you get into the Atreides-level stuff or the Palpatine-level stuff, John's kind of a piker.
posted by mephron at 5:55 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Fiasco de Gama the whale (the whole bracket) is anti-villain.
Yeah, but "anti-villain" doesn't mean "hero," much the same way "anti-hero" doesn't mean "villain." Ahab might be an anti-hero, but that doesn't make the whale the villain or anti-villain or whatever the hell they're on about here. Sometimes a whale is just a whale. Or a palette-swapped pantheistic Sisyphean conceit sandwiched between a hundred pages about the day-to-day operations on fishing boats.
My question is Moby Dick loses to Captain Hook how? Just fuck all the way off. (This bracket, not FdG obvs)
Agreed, the whale should have mopped the floor with him. Doesn't matter much in the long run, I guess, since Humbert Humbert is going to calmly eviscerate them all and then pontificate grandiloquently about it until we all find ourselves uncomfortably agreeing with him that yeah, that was probably the right move.
posted by Mayor West at 5:55 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but "anti-villain" doesn't mean "hero," much the same way "anti-hero" doesn't mean "villain." Ahab might be an anti-hero, but that doesn't make the whale the villain or anti-villain or whatever the hell they're on about here. Sometimes a whale is just a whale. Or a palette-swapped pantheistic Sisyphean conceit sandwiched between a hundred pages about the day-to-day operations on fishing boats.
My question is Moby Dick loses to Captain Hook how? Just fuck all the way off. (This bracket, not FdG obvs)
Agreed, the whale should have mopped the floor with him. Doesn't matter much in the long run, I guess, since Humbert Humbert is going to calmly eviscerate them all and then pontificate grandiloquently about it until we all find ourselves uncomfortably agreeing with him that yeah, that was probably the right move.
posted by Mayor West at 5:55 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
O’Brien in a walk.
I feel like I can relate to all(?) the other villains. Not O’Brien. Never him.
The transporter guy? He seemed nice!
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:11 AM on March 12 [5 favorites]
I feel like I can relate to all(?) the other villains. Not O’Brien. Never him.
The transporter guy? He seemed nice!
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:11 AM on March 12 [5 favorites]
This desperately needs a scenery-chewing bracket. Or maybe a bracket for villains who are completely pants but keep trying anyways because villainy, damnit.
Not a fan of comparing villains by the orders of magnitude of their body counts. Doesn't anyone just try to steal Christmas anymore?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:32 AM on March 12 [5 favorites]
Not a fan of comparing villains by the orders of magnitude of their body counts. Doesn't anyone just try to steal Christmas anymore?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:32 AM on March 12 [5 favorites]
I am a bit speechless. How do you read Moby Dick and come to the view that the whale is a villain?
Indeed! He was the singular hero for at least Nantucket Tom's Cabinetry and Fine Wooden Limbs
posted by ginger.beef at 7:44 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
Indeed! He was the singular hero for at least Nantucket Tom's Cabinetry and Fine Wooden Limbs
posted by ginger.beef at 7:44 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
It is pretty satisfying to imagine Hannibal chomping down on Patrick Bateman. (Somebody probably already wrote that fic lol.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:24 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:24 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Sometimes a whale is just a whale.
"Metaphors? I hate metaphors! That's why my favorite book is Moby Dick: no frou-frou symbolism, just a good simple tale about a man who hates an animal." - Ron Swanson
posted by slimepuppy at 9:54 AM on March 12 [6 favorites]
"Metaphors? I hate metaphors! That's why my favorite book is Moby Dick: no frou-frou symbolism, just a good simple tale about a man who hates an animal." - Ron Swanson
posted by slimepuppy at 9:54 AM on March 12 [6 favorites]
Hugh Grant has been playing some delicious villains lately.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:11 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:11 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
I've known or been able to figure out most of these but who is O'Brien/what work?
posted by supermedusa at 10:15 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 10:15 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
nevermind I googled it. it's been a realllllly long time since I read 1984.
posted by supermedusa at 10:18 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 10:18 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Some of these matches strike me as coming down to "which book has been more widely read". A shame.
posted by Pitachu at 12:41 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
posted by Pitachu at 12:41 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
The transporter guy? He seemed nice!
Not if you stop to think about how transporters work! He’s a mass murderer who’s killed some of his victims dozens of times!
posted by jedicus at 1:20 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Not if you stop to think about how transporters work! He’s a mass murderer who’s killed some of his victims dozens of times!
posted by jedicus at 1:20 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
If it was which book was more widely read, then Lord Voldemort would be there. I think Satan is getting a break because he is not just Milton's villain.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:53 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:53 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Question, does Sauron get to wear any jewelry while in this competition? Because that would stack the deck against just about anyone other than Satan. Even without the ring, Sauron would twist Obrien into knots with just his voice.
posted by Ber at 11:06 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]
posted by Ber at 11:06 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]
Looks like they're down to the final two:
O'Brien (1984) vs. Satan (Paradise Lost)
Tough choice. Satan would seem like the obvious choice, for many reasons, but Don.Kinsayder's comment above rings very true.
posted by cheshyre at 12:30 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
O'Brien (1984) vs. Satan (Paradise Lost)
Tough choice. Satan would seem like the obvious choice, for many reasons, but Don.Kinsayder's comment above rings very true.
posted by cheshyre at 12:30 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
I laugh at Satan because he originates as a pure figment of mens' misogynistic terror of female agency.
Of course Eve picked the apple and took a bite out of it because some other male tempted her — either that or we men would have to confront the possibility that some woman, purely of her own volition committed the sins of eating the forbidden Apple and cozening that bumbling lickspittle Adam, causing the Fall, and we could never bring ourselves to admit a woman could have power like that, even in our worst collective nightmare.
posted by jamjam at 4:51 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Of course Eve picked the apple and took a bite out of it because some other male tempted her — either that or we men would have to confront the possibility that some woman, purely of her own volition committed the sins of eating the forbidden Apple and cozening that bumbling lickspittle Adam, causing the Fall, and we could never bring ourselves to admit a woman could have power like that, even in our worst collective nightmare.
posted by jamjam at 4:51 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
Hugh Grant has been playing some delicious villains lately.
Best work of his entire career in Paddington 2.
posted by phunniemee at 7:54 AM on March 17 [2 favorites]
Best work of his entire career in Paddington 2.
posted by phunniemee at 7:54 AM on March 17 [2 favorites]
Angelica di Rienzi of Elizabeth Hand's Waking the Moon has a pretty good resumé, but I especially like what one of the other characters said about her:
Oh, come on — Charles Manson ? "posted by jamjam at 9:52 PM on March 17
Angelica di Rienzi could eat Charles Manson for breakfast. Probably she already has," Annie added darkly.
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posted by the sobsister at 1:32 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]