Freedom Cities
March 12, 2025 8:43 AM Subscribe
Plans are underway to create "Freedom Cities" around the United States on large open tracts of protected federal lands, following in the footsteps of California Forever, Próspera, Yatai New City and other law and regulation free Special Economic Zone safe-havens for anarcho-capitalists, libertarians and criminals.
‘Startup Nation’ Groups Say They’re Meeting Trump Officials to Push for Deregulated ‘Freedom Cities’
The architects of projects like Próspera are drafting legislation to create US cities that would be free from federal regulations.
A pro-corporate libertarian movement is attempting to take over the U.S., with Trump's help.
Crypto Social Experiments: A Beginners Guide To Network States And Vitalik Buterin’s Initiative In Montenegro
The People of Solano County Versus the Next Tech-Billionaire Dystopia
If these Silicon Valley plutocrats have their way, a swath of Solano County will be transformed into their own nation-state.
A Libertarian Island Dream in Honduras Is Now an $11 Billion Nightmare
Prospera touts itself as the world’s most ambitious experiment in self-governance. Critics say its founders have lost their way
Some examples of other Special Economic Zones, and how they tend to degenerate into criminal safe-havens.
‘Startup Nation’ Groups Say They’re Meeting Trump Officials to Push for Deregulated ‘Freedom Cities’
The architects of projects like Próspera are drafting legislation to create US cities that would be free from federal regulations.
According to interviews and presentations viewed by WIRED, the goal of these cities would be to have places where anti-aging clinical trials, nuclear reactor startups, and building construction can proceed without having to get prior approval from agencies like the Food and Drug Administration, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and the Environmental Protection Agency.Tech Execs Are Pushing Trump to Build ‘Freedom Cities’ Run by Corporations
Trey Goff, the chief of staff of the startup nation known as Próspera, tells WIRED that he and other Próspera representatives working under an advocacy group called the Freedom Cities Coalition have been meeting with the Trump administration about the idea in recent weeks. He claims the administration has been very receptive. In 2023, Trump floated the idea of creating 10 freedom cities. Now, Goff says that Próspera’s vision is to create “not just 10, but as many as the market can handle.” They hope to have drafted legislation ready by the end of the year.
“The energy in DC is absolutely electric,” Goff says. “You can tell in meetings with the people involved that they have the mandate to do some of the more hyperbolic, verbose things Trump has mentioned.”
A pro-corporate libertarian movement is attempting to take over the U.S., with Trump's help.
Where will America’s new “Freedom Cities” be built? It seems quite possible that the Network Staters want to build them in our national parks. On its website, the Freedom City Coalition notes that 28 percent of U.S. land is “federally owned and ready for innovative development.” It doesn’t specify what kind of federal land is “ready” for this “innovation,” but most of the government land that isn’t used for farming and energy development is used for wildlife conservation.Previously known as Network States and Charter Cities
Crypto Social Experiments: A Beginners Guide To Network States And Vitalik Buterin’s Initiative In Montenegro
A “Network State” is defined by infamous tech investor Balaji Srinivasan as a closely-knit online community that can act together, raise money to buy land around the world, and eventually be recognized by existing countries. Digital assets, built with blockchain technology, can help individuals collaborate and exchange resources without relying on traditional institutions like banks.California Forever
...
While these digital communities might offer solutions to social challenges, such as human loneliness – which US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy highlights as a significant threat to human health – there are also potential risks to consider, such as:
- Turning human relationships into commodities: By focusing on financial rewards and digital tokens, people might start to value relationships based on money, rather than forming real connections. The pump and dump token projects within the crypto community exemplify this risk. For instance, a class-action lawsuit alleges that Yuga Labs, the creator of Bored Ape Yacht Club, along with celebrities like Paris Hilton and Jimmy Fallon, conspired to manipulate the price of Bored Ape NFTs for their benefit. The defendants portrayed themselves as part of an organically-formed, high-end community to attract potential NFT investors, while it appears that the celebrities may have been compensated for their involvement in the community.
- Strengthening echo chambers: network states risk making existing divisions worse and creating spaces where different opinions are ignored or pushed aside. Cults like Nxivm, led by Keith Raniere from the late 1990s until 2018, exemplify this. Originally a self-help organization, Nxivm devolved into a manipulative cult, isolating members from their families and society. Arrests of high-profile members in 2018 exposed its disturbing activities. This case demonstrates how echo chambers can thrive, marginalizing opposing views and perpetuating harmful ideologies.
- Neo-colonialism concerns: network states occupying land in inhabited areas poses ethical dilemmas, such as displacing locals and erasing culture. The 2011 Honduras "charter cities" project exemplifies these risks. It faced opposition from indigenous communities fearing land rights and cultural identity threats. Issues of transparency, democracy, and exploitation emerged. The Honduran Supreme Court halted the project in 2012, highlighting the risks of network states purchasing land in populated regions, potentially leading to displacement, cultural erasure, and increased marginalization.
The People of Solano County Versus the Next Tech-Billionaire Dystopia
If these Silicon Valley plutocrats have their way, a swath of Solano County will be transformed into their own nation-state.
It is easy to mock the absurdity of California Forever, the new city that a group of tech billionaires want to build amid cattle pastures 60 miles north of San Francisco. Its wealthy backers frame the project—envisioned as a mega suburb with dense housing and walkable streets set on 60,000 rural acres—as an innovative solution to California’s housing shortage. But their bumbling and villainous antics may ensure it never gets built.Próspera (previously)
The particulars of this caper veer into the ridiculous. Flannery Associates, the billionaires’ front group, sneaked around for five years on a stealth mission to snatch up $900 million worth of agricultural land in Solano County, where land use laws expressly forbid projects like the one the group proposes. The company lavished money on local landowners, overpaying for the land by millions and creating a frenzy. Then, after some local landowners resisted their offers, the billionaires filed a $510 million lawsuit against them. Ironically, the plutocrats turned plaintiffs accused this handful of holdouts of “endless greed.”
A Libertarian Island Dream in Honduras Is Now an $11 Billion Nightmare
Prospera touts itself as the world’s most ambitious experiment in self-governance. Critics say its founders have lost their way
The Honduran president who championed the so-called “special economic zones” legislation that allowed Prospera’s development sits in a US prison, convicted of drug trafficking. His successor has assailed the project as the shady creation of a “narco-regime.” The nation’s highest court has ruled the law underpinning it was unconstitutional.Special Economic Zones, Criminals, Libertarians and Bears
Former supporters have become skeptics. Paul Romer, a Nobel-winning economist and World Bank leader, once touted the city-state concept to spur development in impoverished nations. Prospera’s developers have lost their way, he said.
“It's like a gated community. They're just trying to isolate themselves and do what's best for them,” said Romer. “They’re also somehow living in this libertarian fantasy that took root early in this project, that this will be a place they can be free of the government. That's not gonna turn out well.”
Some examples of other Special Economic Zones, and how they tend to degenerate into criminal safe-havens.
- It Was Supposed to Be an Economic Hub. It Became a Criminal’s Paradise
- The Golden Triangle Special Economic Zone: Where Criminals Rule
- ‘A Global Monster’: Myanmar-Based Cyber Scams Widen the Net
- Yatai New City in Shwe Kokko
- Casinos, high-rises and fraud: The BBC visits a bizarre city built on scams
- Bonus Previously: the bears were getting bolder
if only getting their dicks serviced was enough for these guys. they gotta have everyone watching them get their dicks serviced or it isn't any good. ugh. really past time for an alien invasion. id even settle for a giant meteor.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:53 AM on March 12 [12 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:53 AM on March 12 [12 favorites]
You got Torment Nexus in my secession. You got secession in my Torment Nexus!
Two great tastes that taste great together!
posted by MengerSponge at 8:55 AM on March 12 [17 favorites]
Two great tastes that taste great together!
posted by MengerSponge at 8:55 AM on March 12 [17 favorites]
The A.T.F. [If it even exists by then] is sure gonna be busy monitoring / raiding all these Cult Compounds... "Freedom Cities" ?
posted by Faintdreams at 8:58 AM on March 12 [4 favorites]
posted by Faintdreams at 8:58 AM on March 12 [4 favorites]
I find it absolutely hilarious that the list of candidate cities these jokers are pushing includes Redmond, Oregon. You guys think that federal regulations are onerous? Wait until you meet the Oregon DEQ. Also: Oregon law prohibits new nuclear development in the state until voters give the OK. And Redmond, a rapidly growing destination for people priced out of Bend, now has a substantial registration advantage for Democrats. So I think we know how much thought has been put into this project by its proponents.
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 9:05 AM on March 12 [11 favorites]
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 9:05 AM on March 12 [11 favorites]
Nuclear reactor startups inside National Parks. Sigh. Leave no trace (radioactive elements) indeed.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:07 AM on March 12 [8 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:07 AM on March 12 [8 favorites]
On Usenet's sci.econ there was a commenter named Doug Bashford who had this in his .sig:
"Libertarianism is all the freedoms you can afford – and not one. drop. more."
Wrigley bought Santa Catalina in 1919, Ellison bought Lanai for ~$300M . . .
gotta watch them to see if they go for the Channel Islands, they're just sitting out there free for the taking
posted by torokunai2 at 9:09 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
"Libertarianism is all the freedoms you can afford – and not one. drop. more."
Wrigley bought Santa Catalina in 1919, Ellison bought Lanai for ~$300M . . .
gotta watch them to see if they go for the Channel Islands, they're just sitting out there free for the taking
posted by torokunai2 at 9:09 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
There are theoretically versions of this idea that I like; I think urban design in the US is lacking and there are opportunities to be found in building dense, walkable new cities without being beholden to an existing place's zoning rules.
But I think a project has to be borne of pragmatism and a respect for best practices, not techno-utopianism, y'know?
posted by LSK at 9:11 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
But I think a project has to be borne of pragmatism and a respect for best practices, not techno-utopianism, y'know?
posted by LSK at 9:11 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
Just call them 'Paedoville' and have done with.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 9:16 AM on March 12 [17 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 9:16 AM on March 12 [17 favorites]
Every day is like more James Bond villain news.
posted by 3.2.3 at 9:17 AM on March 12 [14 favorites]
posted by 3.2.3 at 9:17 AM on March 12 [14 favorites]
I find it absolutely hilarious that the list of candidate cities these jokers are pushing includes Redmond, Oregon.
They are probably just hoping the Greater Idaho yahoos succeed
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:22 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
They are probably just hoping the Greater Idaho yahoos succeed
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:22 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
You heard it here first, perhaps: these are revolutionary times. In the past everyone was wont to say, "socialism or barbarism" and so on and certainly that was true, but it wasn't true fully yet.
Wealth has so concentrated that it is almost impossible to fight through legal/state mechanisms. Elon Musk with $50 million would not be in his current position. None of these people are geniuses, it's just that the gravity of their money is such that capitalism's own self-stabilization mechanisms have failed.
It is going to get harder and harder to live a normal life where you just have a job and raise kids and get the occasional brunch and have savings and basically have an okay time. More and more people are going to throw in their lots with fascists, corporations or liberation movements, because there won't be anything else left.
The best fiction book on this topic is Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower a book that so scared me when I read it in the nineties that I have reread it only once since then. ("Beginning in 2024, when society in the United States has grown unstable due to climate change, growing wealth inequality, and corporate greed[...]")
My point being that when our government turns our national parks over to tech scammers and billionaires to do unlicensed medical experiments and run unregulated nuclear reactors, there really isn't any coming back from that.
I'm not sure what happens next in the shortish term, but in the long term it's instability, violence and which side are you on. I do not say this with any kind of left wing "hooray hooray" sentiment; I would much rather just have, like, worked a job and retired.
posted by Frowner at 9:27 AM on March 12 [53 favorites]
Wealth has so concentrated that it is almost impossible to fight through legal/state mechanisms. Elon Musk with $50 million would not be in his current position. None of these people are geniuses, it's just that the gravity of their money is such that capitalism's own self-stabilization mechanisms have failed.
It is going to get harder and harder to live a normal life where you just have a job and raise kids and get the occasional brunch and have savings and basically have an okay time. More and more people are going to throw in their lots with fascists, corporations or liberation movements, because there won't be anything else left.
The best fiction book on this topic is Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower a book that so scared me when I read it in the nineties that I have reread it only once since then. ("Beginning in 2024, when society in the United States has grown unstable due to climate change, growing wealth inequality, and corporate greed[...]")
My point being that when our government turns our national parks over to tech scammers and billionaires to do unlicensed medical experiments and run unregulated nuclear reactors, there really isn't any coming back from that.
I'm not sure what happens next in the shortish term, but in the long term it's instability, violence and which side are you on. I do not say this with any kind of left wing "hooray hooray" sentiment; I would much rather just have, like, worked a job and retired.
posted by Frowner at 9:27 AM on March 12 [53 favorites]
Greater Idaho explicitly carves out Bend and Redmond for being too liberal!
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 9:29 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 9:29 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
Also, how many people are going to get kidnapped into these cities and enslaved? How many prisoners will be "leased" from the feds and disappear into these cities? How many black sites will be run for profit in them?
A lot. Probably a lot. These are all people who have been jonesing for slavery.
I have to admit, I really, truly believed that as a species we'd gotten some of this stuff - vaccines, "actual formal slavery is bad even if it still exists in semi-secret and at least we don't think it's good", etc. But actually, no, humans don't learn, society doesn't improve, it's just different forms, sometimes you're lucky and it's less brutal and people are less terrible, but the terrible people are always fighting to get back to horror.
posted by Frowner at 9:31 AM on March 12 [41 favorites]
A lot. Probably a lot. These are all people who have been jonesing for slavery.
I have to admit, I really, truly believed that as a species we'd gotten some of this stuff - vaccines, "actual formal slavery is bad even if it still exists in semi-secret and at least we don't think it's good", etc. But actually, no, humans don't learn, society doesn't improve, it's just different forms, sometimes you're lucky and it's less brutal and people are less terrible, but the terrible people are always fighting to get back to horror.
posted by Frowner at 9:31 AM on March 12 [41 favorites]
Gee, what could possibly go wrong with this idea?
posted by freakazoid at 9:38 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by freakazoid at 9:38 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Network cities, because contract cities aren't bad enough.
The Lakewood Plan: Homeownership, Taxes, and Diversity in Postwar Suburbia
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:40 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
The Lakewood Plan: Homeownership, Taxes, and Diversity in Postwar Suburbia
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:40 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
You know....there's a part of me that isn't entirely opposed to this - WITH certain conditions in place:
1.The Federal lands in question cannot include any of the major national parks.
2. Said "Freedom City" can not be included in any public infrastructure project rolled out by the state in question, nor in any public infrastructure project rolled out by the federal government. In order to participate in any public infrastructure project (mail, roads, bridges, etc.) they must send an emissary to Washington DC to make those arrangements and negotiate a deal.
3. Said "Freedom City" must establish its own Board of Voters, city legislature, and mayor. They may not vote in mayoral elections for the nearby community. They can vote in state or federal elections.
4. Residents of said "Freedom City" who work outside that city must be taxed accordingly (i.e., if they live in Freedom City Muskarino, but they work in Toledo, the impact on their taxes must be similar to that of people who work in New York City but live in New Jersey, people who work in Philadelphia but live in Bucks County, etc.).
5. Residents of said "Freedom City" must negotiate their own grants for civic and infrastructural projects independent of the region in which they are located (i.e., Freedom City Muskarino can't piggyback on Toledo's grants for civic development, they gotta deal with the Ohio governor or the Feds on their own).
....A part of me thinks that a) this would teach some yutzes a hard lesson on exactly what function taxes serve, and b) this would get them all in one place where they can be more easily avoided. And it might also defang a lot of them because they'd be too busy coping with the shitstorm that comes about from them mismanaging things on their own, like that small town in New Hampshire where a bunch of libertarians tried to take over and ended up being so bad at it that the town got overrun by bears.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
1.The Federal lands in question cannot include any of the major national parks.
2. Said "Freedom City" can not be included in any public infrastructure project rolled out by the state in question, nor in any public infrastructure project rolled out by the federal government. In order to participate in any public infrastructure project (mail, roads, bridges, etc.) they must send an emissary to Washington DC to make those arrangements and negotiate a deal.
3. Said "Freedom City" must establish its own Board of Voters, city legislature, and mayor. They may not vote in mayoral elections for the nearby community. They can vote in state or federal elections.
4. Residents of said "Freedom City" who work outside that city must be taxed accordingly (i.e., if they live in Freedom City Muskarino, but they work in Toledo, the impact on their taxes must be similar to that of people who work in New York City but live in New Jersey, people who work in Philadelphia but live in Bucks County, etc.).
5. Residents of said "Freedom City" must negotiate their own grants for civic and infrastructural projects independent of the region in which they are located (i.e., Freedom City Muskarino can't piggyback on Toledo's grants for civic development, they gotta deal with the Ohio governor or the Feds on their own).
....A part of me thinks that a) this would teach some yutzes a hard lesson on exactly what function taxes serve, and b) this would get them all in one place where they can be more easily avoided. And it might also defang a lot of them because they'd be too busy coping with the shitstorm that comes about from them mismanaging things on their own, like that small town in New Hampshire where a bunch of libertarians tried to take over and ended up being so bad at it that the town got overrun by bears.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
Cyberpunk was a warning, not a manual 😤
posted by migurski at 9:44 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by migurski at 9:44 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Frowner, the recent history of "Pig Butchering" in these Special Economic Zones is rife with slavery, torture and murder and is touched on somewhat in some of the links at the bottom of the post. But here is a bit more on the types of things that happen there, these places are literally filled with skyscrapers filled with hundreds of thousands of victims who victimize millions of others...
‘Pig butchering’ fraud: the link between modern slavery, torture and online crime
posted by rambling wanderlust at 9:45 AM on March 12 [21 favorites]
‘Pig butchering’ fraud: the link between modern slavery, torture and online crime
What makes this type of fraud different is that the offenders are often themselves victims of recruitment fraud. Financially vulnerable people are promised work in casinos and sent to south-east Asia, typically Cambodia and Myanmar, from all over the world. They are then locked in large compounds and may be forced to defraud people for 17 hours a day.It's a whole criminal enterprise that could use its own separate post...
A 2023 report by the Humanity Research Consultancy, a social enterprise investigating modern slavery, offered a glimpse into the conditions in these places. To ensure compliance, the traffickers regularly torture their victims, with methods like electrocution, burying captives alive or smashing their fingers with hammers. Women are often forced into sex work in the compound’s brothels and to act as models during video chats with prospective victims.
There is emerging evidence suggesting that these compounds are also operating further afield. An August 2024 investigation by the BBC found a pig-butchering compound operating in Douglas on the Isle of Man, where a hotel and former bank offices were used as premises by nearly 100 Chinese nationals to defraud more than £4 million from victims in China.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 9:45 AM on March 12 [21 favorites]
There's a moment where, in the novel I'm currently writing, one of the characters is stopped at a checkpoint on the I-5 and sees printed on a large warehouse next to the freeway which says
YOU ARE NOW ENTERING FREE ORANGE COUNTY
I definitely need to finish that stupid thing before it gets overtaken by reality.
posted by tclark at 9:47 AM on March 12 [10 favorites]
YOU ARE NOW ENTERING FREE ORANGE COUNTY
I definitely need to finish that stupid thing before it gets overtaken by reality.
posted by tclark at 9:47 AM on March 12 [10 favorites]
Freedom Cities sound like a blueprint for a real horror show, but, like any horrific idea, there's a bit of it that's a good idea, or at least a reaction to a current bad situation.
Lots of parts of the US, particularly blue parts, are so overregulated that they can't build housing. Best intentions, NIMBY intentions, who cares -- the result is homelessness and the pricing out of wage workers.
If we these nightmare Freedom Cities do end up getting built, I don't think we'd have gotten there without the current housing crisis brought on in large part by overregulation.
posted by gurple at 9:53 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Lots of parts of the US, particularly blue parts, are so overregulated that they can't build housing. Best intentions, NIMBY intentions, who cares -- the result is homelessness and the pricing out of wage workers.
If we these nightmare Freedom Cities do end up getting built, I don't think we'd have gotten there without the current housing crisis brought on in large part by overregulation.
posted by gurple at 9:53 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Greater Idaho explicitly carves out Bend and Redmond for being too liberal!
are you pulling my leg? I cant tell any more
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:53 AM on March 12
are you pulling my leg? I cant tell any more
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:53 AM on March 12
Corporate ran cities like Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong in Snow Crash. Sounds like a lovely idea to give corporations more power.
posted by ShakeyJake at 9:56 AM on March 12 [9 favorites]
posted by ShakeyJake at 9:56 AM on March 12 [9 favorites]
Tacking onto EmpressCallipygos' list:
6. Residents must pay federal taxes to cover any federal services that they benefit from simply by being inside the US. Defense comes to mind.
posted by duoshao at 9:58 AM on March 12 [7 favorites]
6. Residents must pay federal taxes to cover any federal services that they benefit from simply by being inside the US. Defense comes to mind.
posted by duoshao at 9:58 AM on March 12 [7 favorites]
Lots of parts of the US, particularly blue parts, are so overregulated that they can't build housing.
A bunch of builders have claimed that here, whining that "they'll only make $60, 000, so it's not worth it. " I have yet to see anyone make a claim that regulatory burden is anything but an impediment to greed, at least in the portland metro.
The properties next to our office in Lake Oswego had be set for development. when the builder and the architect came by to talk about how construction would impact us, they crowed for like half an hour about how overjoyed they were to be doing this in LO since portland was such a pain in the ass for permitting etc. it's been 3 years and they've done FA to the now vacant and unmaintained building next door.
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:59 AM on March 12 [13 favorites]
A bunch of builders have claimed that here, whining that "they'll only make $60, 000, so it's not worth it. " I have yet to see anyone make a claim that regulatory burden is anything but an impediment to greed, at least in the portland metro.
The properties next to our office in Lake Oswego had be set for development. when the builder and the architect came by to talk about how construction would impact us, they crowed for like half an hour about how overjoyed they were to be doing this in LO since portland was such a pain in the ass for permitting etc. it's been 3 years and they've done FA to the now vacant and unmaintained building next door.
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:59 AM on March 12 [13 favorites]
Understanding Republicans, rule #8: Anything with the words "Freedom" or "Truth" in it is proposing exactly the opposite
posted by caution live frogs at 10:02 AM on March 12 [22 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 10:02 AM on March 12 [22 favorites]
When do the bears show up?
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:12 AM on March 12 [20 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:12 AM on March 12 [20 favorites]
Good. Some people only learn things the hard way.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:21 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:21 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
This is gonna suck for a bunch of people who are lured into these hellholes by the promise of a job, and wind up in some variation of debt peonage, indentured servitude, or slavery. Because these cities are gonna need service industry workers and lying to folks about what to expect is a lot cheaper than setting up a kidnapping operation.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:22 AM on March 12 [19 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:22 AM on March 12 [19 favorites]
I have only one thing to say which is these pieces of shit need to stop using the word anarchist.
posted by latkes at 10:26 AM on March 12 [11 favorites]
posted by latkes at 10:26 AM on March 12 [11 favorites]
This is gonna suck for a bunch of people who are lured into these hellholes by the promise of a job, and wind up in some variation of debt peonage, indentured servitude, or slavery. Because these cities are gonna need service industry workers and lying to folks about what to expect is a lot cheaper than setting up a kidnapping operation.
Bear in mind that kidnapping can be very cheap if you don't expect any legal pushback. There have been lots of "kidnap people into slavery" operations, even outside of American chattel slavery.
I keep having to remind myself that there's a hard core of people who are just devoid of empathy ("humanity's greatest weakness", folks!) and will do anything at all to increase their power and comfort, and there's another core of people who will just make up a twisted morality ("Jesus WANTS these people to be slaves") to quiet their consciences. These people are in the ascendant now, and we can't be fooled or give them quarter.
posted by Frowner at 10:30 AM on March 12 [25 favorites]
Can't we put them all into orbitals? Isn't that the sort of thing they like?
I think of the environmental catastrophe that these will be and I just want to throw myself to the ground screaming.
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:31 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
I think of the environmental catastrophe that these will be and I just want to throw myself to the ground screaming.
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:31 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Can't we put them all into orbitals? Isn't that the sort of thing they like?
given that musk is too chicken go on The Daily Show, let alone ride his own rocket, probably not?
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:36 AM on March 12 [5 favorites]
given that musk is too chicken go on The Daily Show, let alone ride his own rocket, probably not?
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:36 AM on March 12 [5 favorites]
anything I'd add to this discussion would be a footnote to Frowner's comments
right here and now, in our lifetime, we get to find out which side we're on. Let's face it, most of us have grown up watching shows that for the most part feature happy endings. The right side wins, justice prevails. We are living in a time where we should look to Gaza, the Warsaw Ghetto, the treatment of First Peoples when Europeans arrived in what we call North America.
the worst people appear to be in charge and they are changing our world as we speak
posted by ginger.beef at 10:36 AM on March 12 [16 favorites]
right here and now, in our lifetime, we get to find out which side we're on. Let's face it, most of us have grown up watching shows that for the most part feature happy endings. The right side wins, justice prevails. We are living in a time where we should look to Gaza, the Warsaw Ghetto, the treatment of First Peoples when Europeans arrived in what we call North America.
the worst people appear to be in charge and they are changing our world as we speak
posted by ginger.beef at 10:36 AM on March 12 [16 favorites]
Can't we put them all into orbitals? Isn't that the sort of thing they like?
if we could squeeze them all into an s, p or even a d orbital and then send them on vacation via the Schwarzschild travel company, that would be peachy.
posted by lalochezia at 10:37 AM on March 12 [13 favorites]
if we could squeeze them all into an s, p or even a d orbital and then send them on vacation via the Schwarzschild travel company, that would be peachy.
posted by lalochezia at 10:37 AM on March 12 [13 favorites]
So... Death traps.
Cool. Cool cool cool cool cool. Accelerationism is really, uh, accelerating a lot faster than expected, isn't it? Like these guys all jumped out of the plane for the freedom of the fall, but the ground, it's rapidly approaching, and now we're suddenly all chained to these guys and they set the plane on fire on their way out and there's very little we can do about any of it.
posted by foxtongue at 10:39 AM on March 12 [8 favorites]
Cool. Cool cool cool cool cool. Accelerationism is really, uh, accelerating a lot faster than expected, isn't it? Like these guys all jumped out of the plane for the freedom of the fall, but the ground, it's rapidly approaching, and now we're suddenly all chained to these guys and they set the plane on fire on their way out and there's very little we can do about any of it.
posted by foxtongue at 10:39 AM on March 12 [8 favorites]
This isn't going to happen. I mean, maybe someone will build something, but there are not going to be functioning libertarian cities with populations of thousands, let alone tens of thousands.
Men have proposed utopian cities for thousands of years. I can understand the desire to start with a clean slate -- I designed a pure eco-city during my second year of architecture school, and my teachers understandably hated the whole idea because they had personally witnessed the failure of modernist utopias. But the thing is that cities are organisms, they live and die organically and unpredictably, even when they are planned. If you try to control that process, you will fail. That doesn't mean you can't plan and build a new city, the US is full of new cities that have grown into great organisms. But you can't control them ideologically. I guess the closest there is to a city with a purpose in the US is Salt Lake City, and AFAIK, there are plenty of not-mormon activities out there.
posted by mumimor at 11:00 AM on March 12 [10 favorites]
Men have proposed utopian cities for thousands of years. I can understand the desire to start with a clean slate -- I designed a pure eco-city during my second year of architecture school, and my teachers understandably hated the whole idea because they had personally witnessed the failure of modernist utopias. But the thing is that cities are organisms, they live and die organically and unpredictably, even when they are planned. If you try to control that process, you will fail. That doesn't mean you can't plan and build a new city, the US is full of new cities that have grown into great organisms. But you can't control them ideologically. I guess the closest there is to a city with a purpose in the US is Salt Lake City, and AFAIK, there are plenty of not-mormon activities out there.
posted by mumimor at 11:00 AM on March 12 [10 favorites]
This is gonna suck for a bunch of people who are lured into these hellholes by the promise of a job, and wind up in some variation of debt peonage, indentured servitude, or slavery. Because these cities are gonna need service industry workers and lying to folks about what to expect is a lot cheaper than setting up a kidnapping operation.
Bear in mind that kidnapping can be very cheap if you don't expect any legal pushback. There have been lots of "kidnap people into slavery" operations, even outside of American chattel slavery
Special Freedom Zone Worker Visas. Work makes you a citizen. Would you like to know more?
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:02 AM on March 12 [6 favorites]
Bear in mind that kidnapping can be very cheap if you don't expect any legal pushback. There have been lots of "kidnap people into slavery" operations, even outside of American chattel slavery
Special Freedom Zone Worker Visas. Work makes you a citizen. Would you like to know more?
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:02 AM on March 12 [6 favorites]
Adding onto EmpressCallipygos and duoshao:
7. Previous to construction, a $5 billion dollar bond must be placed to fund any and all legal issues resulting from the effects of the Freedom Cities, including personal damage, pain and suffering, and environmental cleanup.
And that might be a little low for the bond, but I think we need to make sure they understand that there's no free lunch here, they will have to deal with the problems they cause. No situation of private profit and socialized cleanup.
posted by mephron at 11:19 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
7. Previous to construction, a $5 billion dollar bond must be placed to fund any and all legal issues resulting from the effects of the Freedom Cities, including personal damage, pain and suffering, and environmental cleanup.
And that might be a little low for the bond, but I think we need to make sure they understand that there's no free lunch here, they will have to deal with the problems they cause. No situation of private profit and socialized cleanup.
posted by mephron at 11:19 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
This isn't going to happen. I mean, maybe someone will build something, but there are not going to be functioning libertarian cities with populations of thousands, let alone tens of thousands.
I mean look, I don't entirely disagree with you. These people are terrible at building, in both the literal and figurative senses; they're only good at knocking down, again in the same senses. These idiots are high on their fascist little farts right now and just doing whatever they think of (and specifically, whatever might get gobs of ill-gotten cash thrown at them), and my initial instinct is that they will get both extremely bored and extremely distracted long before their technotopias come to pass in meaningful ways.
However, in just the past three weeks at least 5 things that I would have thought unfathomable -- impossible -- literally un-DO able -- have entirely happened. I no longer feel confident in my assessments of what will happen on any scale bigger than "I'll probably go to the grocery store tonight." (Because lord knows when I get there, what I can actually buy is 100% up for grabs now! Un. Fucking. Fathomable. But true, and fact.)
Moreover, the amount of damage they can do to literally irreplaceable landscapes and resources in their "fucking around" phase is unconscionable, whether or not they actually succeed in building enormous slave cities that they somehow manage to keep from being overrun by bears.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:20 AM on March 12 [20 favorites]
I mean look, I don't entirely disagree with you. These people are terrible at building, in both the literal and figurative senses; they're only good at knocking down, again in the same senses. These idiots are high on their fascist little farts right now and just doing whatever they think of (and specifically, whatever might get gobs of ill-gotten cash thrown at them), and my initial instinct is that they will get both extremely bored and extremely distracted long before their technotopias come to pass in meaningful ways.
However, in just the past three weeks at least 5 things that I would have thought unfathomable -- impossible -- literally un-DO able -- have entirely happened. I no longer feel confident in my assessments of what will happen on any scale bigger than "I'll probably go to the grocery store tonight." (Because lord knows when I get there, what I can actually buy is 100% up for grabs now! Un. Fucking. Fathomable. But true, and fact.)
Moreover, the amount of damage they can do to literally irreplaceable landscapes and resources in their "fucking around" phase is unconscionable, whether or not they actually succeed in building enormous slave cities that they somehow manage to keep from being overrun by bears.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:20 AM on March 12 [20 favorites]
Work makes you a citizen. Would you like to know more?
It probably sounded better in the original German.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:21 AM on March 12 [12 favorites]
It probably sounded better in the original German.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:21 AM on March 12 [12 favorites]
Adding onto EmpressCallipygos and duoshao:
7. Previous to construction, a $5 billion dollar bond must be placed to fund any and all legal issues resulting from the effects of the Freedom Cities, including personal damage, pain and suffering, and environmental cleanup.
And that might be a little low for the bond, but I think we need to make sure they understand that there's no free lunch here, they will have to deal with the problems they cause. No situation of private profit and socialized cleanup.
This is a negative take, but what are these sorts of comments intended to achieve? Are we lobbying people to ensure these safeguards? I'm thinking of one specific example but there are many: even given the environmental impact studies and so-called "costs of doing business" in the energy sector in Alberta, none of it is enough. The tailing ponds are an atrocious blight. Orphan wells? Certainly not the problem of many of the entities that derived profit from them when they were viable, then moved on.
So, yeah.
posted by ginger.beef at 11:38 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
7. Previous to construction, a $5 billion dollar bond must be placed to fund any and all legal issues resulting from the effects of the Freedom Cities, including personal damage, pain and suffering, and environmental cleanup.
And that might be a little low for the bond, but I think we need to make sure they understand that there's no free lunch here, they will have to deal with the problems they cause. No situation of private profit and socialized cleanup.
This is a negative take, but what are these sorts of comments intended to achieve? Are we lobbying people to ensure these safeguards? I'm thinking of one specific example but there are many: even given the environmental impact studies and so-called "costs of doing business" in the energy sector in Alberta, none of it is enough. The tailing ponds are an atrocious blight. Orphan wells? Certainly not the problem of many of the entities that derived profit from them when they were viable, then moved on.
So, yeah.
posted by ginger.beef at 11:38 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
There is no way these kinds of asshats can build this stuff. They just don’t have the org charts; hell, they don’t even have the phone numbers of people who could build this.
What this does look like is the same kind of ponzi scheme scams that bitcoin already is. Invest in freedom city! Timeshares now available!
posted by The River Ivel at 11:39 AM on March 12 [5 favorites]
What this does look like is the same kind of ponzi scheme scams that bitcoin already is. Invest in freedom city! Timeshares now available!
posted by The River Ivel at 11:39 AM on March 12 [5 favorites]
What a potential waste of public land, but that's par for the course for these assholes.
posted by fedward at 11:40 AM on March 12
posted by fedward at 11:40 AM on March 12
Apropos of my bear comment - these "utopian" communities* almost always fall apart because - a lack of funding, lack of jobs, lack of people to lead or conversely people not want to be led. Building a new community is hard with a lot of grunt work and these guys, if they're the same sort of tech weenie that I am, don't really want to get in that stuff. They all want their libertarian fantasy of being the king, not the serf.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:44 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:44 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
There's so much prior art to show how this never works, but I guess to the extent they know about all the previous failures they cling to the notion that they'll be the ones to get it right. Like conservatism, libertarianism can never fail, it can only be failed. But I guess they get libertarian bonus points for razing forests and polluting the air, water, and soil in the process of repeating everybody else's mistakes.
posted by fedward at 11:52 AM on March 12 [4 favorites]
posted by fedward at 11:52 AM on March 12 [4 favorites]
a friend posted about this on fb and I said "oh yeah I want to live in the Leopards Eating My Face neighborhood of Torment Nexus City!"
srsly tho, this stuff is kind of terrifying anyway, but with 47 in the chair it seems less like a billionaire pipe dream and more like the dystopian future I really wanted to remain fiction. ugh.
posted by supermedusa at 11:54 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
srsly tho, this stuff is kind of terrifying anyway, but with 47 in the chair it seems less like a billionaire pipe dream and more like the dystopian future I really wanted to remain fiction. ugh.
posted by supermedusa at 11:54 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
One big problem I see with all these libertarian cities/floating islands/spacetopias is that they need to be decent places to live for just plain average folk who want to raise a family with a couple of kids and work a boring job.
It's easy to come up with places that are great for the insanely rich, but who cleans the houses of the insanely rich? Who cooks their food? Who sells them the food and who works in the business that do all that? You've got doctors, but who works at the front desk? You need a whole bunch of not-tech people to keep a society functioning. Is this free city going to be a good place to live for the guy who drives the garbage truck?
I'm guessing that the idea (assuming it's well formed enough to count as an "idea") is to automate and AI yourself out of needing those jobs (the less charitable guess is that they want slaves). Personally, I'd do that first and then work on Freedom Cities, but that's just me.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:58 AM on March 12 [7 favorites]
It's easy to come up with places that are great for the insanely rich, but who cleans the houses of the insanely rich? Who cooks their food? Who sells them the food and who works in the business that do all that? You've got doctors, but who works at the front desk? You need a whole bunch of not-tech people to keep a society functioning. Is this free city going to be a good place to live for the guy who drives the garbage truck?
I'm guessing that the idea (assuming it's well formed enough to count as an "idea") is to automate and AI yourself out of needing those jobs (the less charitable guess is that they want slaves). Personally, I'd do that first and then work on Freedom Cities, but that's just me.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:58 AM on March 12 [7 favorites]
If you would enjoy a fictional glimpse into what this future could look like, Micaiah Johnson's The Space Between Worlds is set in such a world. It's really good but really really grim.
I can't imagine many women would want to live in such a place, for the obvious reasons. I guess they'll just kidnap all thewomen girls they need.
posted by supermedusa at 12:16 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
I can't imagine many women would want to live in such a place, for the obvious reasons. I guess they'll just kidnap all the
posted by supermedusa at 12:16 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
In case you were still wondering which sci-fi dystopia we've ended up in, it turns out it's Robocop. "Freedom Cities" is just "OCP buys Detroit" in a different font.
posted by mhum at 12:22 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
posted by mhum at 12:22 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
One big problem I see with all these libertarian cities/floating islands/spacetopias is that they need to be decent places to live for just plain average folk who want to raise a family with a couple of kids and work a boring job.
It's easy to come up with places that are great for the insanely rich, but who cleans the houses of the insanely rich? Who cooks their food? Who sells them the food and who works in the business that do all that? You've got doctors, but who works at the front desk? You need a whole bunch of not-tech people to keep a society functioning. Is this free city going to be a good place to live for the guy who drives the garbage truck?
Exactly! That's why they never work. And the thing is, even if you use slaves/prison labor, you will never get the whole layer of middle class people needed to make a city work. You could perhaps get slaves to do cleaning and cooking. But what about teachers, accountants, shop managers, city management, police, entertainers, coaches, nurses, firemen, and you know all of the rest of us who don't want to serve tech bros?
posted by mumimor at 12:33 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
It's easy to come up with places that are great for the insanely rich, but who cleans the houses of the insanely rich? Who cooks their food? Who sells them the food and who works in the business that do all that? You've got doctors, but who works at the front desk? You need a whole bunch of not-tech people to keep a society functioning. Is this free city going to be a good place to live for the guy who drives the garbage truck?
Exactly! That's why they never work. And the thing is, even if you use slaves/prison labor, you will never get the whole layer of middle class people needed to make a city work. You could perhaps get slaves to do cleaning and cooking. But what about teachers, accountants, shop managers, city management, police, entertainers, coaches, nurses, firemen, and you know all of the rest of us who don't want to serve tech bros?
posted by mumimor at 12:33 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
5. Residents of said "Freedom City" must negotiate their own grants for civic and infrastructural projects independent of the region in which they are located (i.e., Freedom City Muskarino can't piggyback on Toledo's grants for civic development, they gotta deal with the Ohio governor or the Feds on their own).
- posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:42 PM on March 12
Nah, they'll just live off grid by digging water wells for each house and set up solar farms, etc. It'll work great until the wells get contaminated with horrible chemicals like TCE (hey! my home town! and the factory that my mom worked at for decades!), and "antifa" elements sabotage the solar panels. Those elements will certainly not be residents of a nearby freedom city that they just so happen to be in a trade war with at the moment and the residents will happily volunteer to protect the solar farms until that time eats into their money-making time and they just not report for their next volunteering shift. It'll be great! No taxes needed!
posted by NoMich at 12:35 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
- posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:42 PM on March 12
Nah, they'll just live off grid by digging water wells for each house and set up solar farms, etc. It'll work great until the wells get contaminated with horrible chemicals like TCE (hey! my home town! and the factory that my mom worked at for decades!), and "antifa" elements sabotage the solar panels. Those elements will certainly not be residents of a nearby freedom city that they just so happen to be in a trade war with at the moment and the residents will happily volunteer to protect the solar farms until that time eats into their money-making time and they just not report for their next volunteering shift. It'll be great! No taxes needed!
posted by NoMich at 12:35 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Sure, it's all fun, freedom, casual sex, and games, until the Lifeclock in your palm starts blinking red on your Last Day and you need to report to Carousel for your renewal.
posted by the matching mole at 12:43 PM on March 12 [13 favorites]
posted by the matching mole at 12:43 PM on March 12 [13 favorites]
I have to admit, I really, truly believed that as a species we'd gotten some of this stuff - vaccines, "actual formal slavery is bad even if it still exists in semi-secret and at least we don't think it's good", etc. But actually, no, humans don't learn, society doesn't improve, it's just different forms, sometimes you're lucky and it's less brutal and people are less terrible, but the terrible people are always fighting to get back to horror.
And yet people are mad at anti-natalists!
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:49 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
And yet people are mad at anti-natalists!
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:49 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
I am more and more convinced that Vermin Supreme is the least clownish libertarian.
posted by Schmucko at 1:08 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
posted by Schmucko at 1:08 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
These Asshats read Atlas Shrugged and absorbed all the wrong lessons didn't they ?
posted by Faintdreams at 1:27 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by Faintdreams at 1:27 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
who cleans the houses of the insanely rich? Who cooks their food? Who sells them the food and who works in the business that do all that?
Slaves, that's who. Libertarians are the stupidest and cruelest people ever to exist, and their fantasy utopia would be incomplete were there not darker-skinned slaves to do their menial chores and middle-school girls to satisfy them sexually. You know how anyone who went to Harvard works it into the first five minutes of conversation they have with you? I have literally never met a libertarian (and I grew up posh, so I've met a lot of them) who won't go more or less directly to why age of consent laws oppress Freedumb.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:37 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]
Slaves, that's who. Libertarians are the stupidest and cruelest people ever to exist, and their fantasy utopia would be incomplete were there not darker-skinned slaves to do their menial chores and middle-school girls to satisfy them sexually. You know how anyone who went to Harvard works it into the first five minutes of conversation they have with you? I have literally never met a libertarian (and I grew up posh, so I've met a lot of them) who won't go more or less directly to why age of consent laws oppress Freedumb.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:37 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]
The crazy thing is that they are making some progress. It is true that California Forever is slowed down due to current regulations for the moment, but Próspera is a real place even with the current political implosion in Honduras.
The terrible Asian ones are significant cities, and already so much worse in so many ways. I'd love to know who actually lives in them intentionally. Clearly not everyone is involved in the call centers, drug business or other dark work. There must be normal people going about their lives, probably sucked in from the surrounding countries with the promise of making bank or at least being an improvement over their current lives.
When the extreme wealthy have trillions of dollars to burn and purchasing the most expensive money sink of a yacht becomes blasé, real life SimCity is a fun way to out conspicuously consume compared to your fellow billionaires, and a chance to pool resources to see just how far you can take it. Who cares how much is wasted when the fun is in the roller coaster of creation and wanton destruction?
I imagine that a lot of these billionaires hope to build something like Ashgabat in Turkmenistan. Seriously, check out the architecture, it is crazy, really crazy! Real people live there, even if it is a ghost town in many ways.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 1:39 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
The terrible Asian ones are significant cities, and already so much worse in so many ways. I'd love to know who actually lives in them intentionally. Clearly not everyone is involved in the call centers, drug business or other dark work. There must be normal people going about their lives, probably sucked in from the surrounding countries with the promise of making bank or at least being an improvement over their current lives.
When the extreme wealthy have trillions of dollars to burn and purchasing the most expensive money sink of a yacht becomes blasé, real life SimCity is a fun way to out conspicuously consume compared to your fellow billionaires, and a chance to pool resources to see just how far you can take it. Who cares how much is wasted when the fun is in the roller coaster of creation and wanton destruction?
I imagine that a lot of these billionaires hope to build something like Ashgabat in Turkmenistan. Seriously, check out the architecture, it is crazy, really crazy! Real people live there, even if it is a ghost town in many ways.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 1:39 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
Exactly! That's why they never work. And the thing is, even if you use slaves/prison labor, you will never get the whole layer of middle class people needed to make a city work. You could perhaps get slaves to do cleaning and cooking. But what about teachers, accountants, shop managers, city management, police, entertainers, coaches, nurses, firemen, and you know all of the rest of us who don't want to serve tech bros?
DOGE et al are eliminating an unprecedented swath of middle-class jobs at the moment. They are also crippling the systems that provide financial support to the jobless, the elderly, and the ill. If the only jobs to be had are the ones in TechBro Hellscapes, desperate folks will take them. And Musk et al are making certain there will be millions of very desperate Americans soon.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:39 PM on March 12 [16 favorites]
DOGE et al are eliminating an unprecedented swath of middle-class jobs at the moment. They are also crippling the systems that provide financial support to the jobless, the elderly, and the ill. If the only jobs to be had are the ones in TechBro Hellscapes, desperate folks will take them. And Musk et al are making certain there will be millions of very desperate Americans soon.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:39 PM on March 12 [16 favorites]
As someone very interested in issues of municipal finance and city growth, in the context of California cities, here, I had a "pretty sure the California Forever folks would push back on being lumped in with the others" moment.
The perverse incentives of Prop 13 combined with rich white NIMBYs who can't understand why their single-family detached car-oriented lifestyle (where the low-income service workers being forced to drive in from two counties over is a feature, because it keeps the poors out), means that it's darned hard to build non-greenfield. Couple that with a fear of gentrification, and it's doubly hard to build housing in urban California economies.
And their Head of Planning Gabe Metcalf made a case for this in the Commonwealth Club discussion.
I'm skeptical that they have the rest of what's necessary to grow a city culture and economy from scratch, but the pitch is a little more nuanced than "Libertarian utopia".
I'm involved in a group that does local forums on development issues, and we're trying to find someone California Forever adjacent to talk with us. I suspect we're too small and focused for anyone currently involved in the project to come talk to a potentially hostile audience, but I think it's unfair to dismiss them without acknowledging that a lot of people who self-identify as "liberal" or even "progressive" will do everything they can to shoot down any new housing in their cities, while celebrating adding more lanes to the local freeways.
posted by straw at 1:45 PM on March 12
The perverse incentives of Prop 13 combined with rich white NIMBYs who can't understand why their single-family detached car-oriented lifestyle (where the low-income service workers being forced to drive in from two counties over is a feature, because it keeps the poors out), means that it's darned hard to build non-greenfield. Couple that with a fear of gentrification, and it's doubly hard to build housing in urban California economies.
And their Head of Planning Gabe Metcalf made a case for this in the Commonwealth Club discussion.
I'm skeptical that they have the rest of what's necessary to grow a city culture and economy from scratch, but the pitch is a little more nuanced than "Libertarian utopia".
I'm involved in a group that does local forums on development issues, and we're trying to find someone California Forever adjacent to talk with us. I suspect we're too small and focused for anyone currently involved in the project to come talk to a potentially hostile audience, but I think it's unfair to dismiss them without acknowledging that a lot of people who self-identify as "liberal" or even "progressive" will do everything they can to shoot down any new housing in their cities, while celebrating adding more lanes to the local freeways.
posted by straw at 1:45 PM on March 12
Master Blaster runs Bartertown.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 1:49 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
posted by abraxasaxarba at 1:49 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
FREEDOM FOR WHAT, ELON?! FREEDOM FOR WHAT?!
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:57 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:57 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Also, again, while I do mostly fall on the side of "this will never happen because it's hard and boring and these dopes don't really fuck with hard or boring" ... I think it is really optimistic to assume that the folks behind these plans care about whether the place is "nice to live in."
These people have all the money in the world but they live in mostly-empty rooms and eat gray goo so they can live to 400. They do not care about pleasure in the slightest. They want power, and money, for the sake of the having.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:57 PM on March 12 [10 favorites]
These people have all the money in the world but they live in mostly-empty rooms and eat gray goo so they can live to 400. They do not care about pleasure in the slightest. They want power, and money, for the sake of the having.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:57 PM on March 12 [10 favorites]
Trump's weird new 'cities' and the Network State cult [another nerdreich piece]
Relatedly, Curtis Yarvin on Gaza. [a mirror link]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:22 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Relatedly, Curtis Yarvin on Gaza. [a mirror link]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:22 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
You could perhaps get slaves to do cleaning and cooking. But what about teachers, accountants, shop managers, city management, police, entertainers, coaches, nurses, firemen
All managed by slaves in at least two empires I can think of. Palace slaves, often.
posted by clew at 3:04 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
All managed by slaves in at least two empires I can think of. Palace slaves, often.
posted by clew at 3:04 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Trump’s FBI moves to criminally charge major climate groups, like Habitat for Humanity, for receiving grants from the EPV under Biden
posted by jeffburdges at 3:09 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 3:09 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
isn't Habitat for Humanity all about building homes? Like, former President Carter's lifelong volunteer commitment to Habitat for Humanity was well-documented, no?
I mean, I guess there's a connection somewhere but here again is our mistake, repeated many times today, yesterday, tomorrow: trying to reason out events that are unfolding where the only 'reason' is cruelty, fascist opportunism, etc. Type type type away while these fucking bastards tear everything down
posted by ginger.beef at 3:21 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
I mean, I guess there's a connection somewhere but here again is our mistake, repeated many times today, yesterday, tomorrow: trying to reason out events that are unfolding where the only 'reason' is cruelty, fascist opportunism, etc. Type type type away while these fucking bastards tear everything down
posted by ginger.beef at 3:21 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
“The FBI has told Citibank that recipients of EPA climate grants are being considered as potentially liable for fraud. That is, the Trump administration wants to criminalize work on climate science and impacts,” the @capitolhunters account wrote Wednesday on X. “An incoming administration not only cancels federal grants but declares recipients as criminals. All these grantees applied under government calls FOR ENVIRONMENTAL WORK, were reviewed and accepted. Trump wants to jail them.“
posted by ginger.beef at 3:32 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
posted by ginger.beef at 3:32 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I did a weird NIMBY take when I wrote my town about a new development that is going to, ah, FUCK UP my traffic situation. It was a long letter but boiled down to: if these will be places where my hairdresser and barista can live instead of commuting from out of town, yes, build it. If it’s going to be a bunch of high end condos to entice even more Yankee computer dudes to move here, then HELL NO.
I guess I’m echoing that these people have no desire or ability to build a functioning town with people of all incomes, jobs, backgrounds, and societal roles. It’s hard enough to keep things running in existing cities and it’s not all just about transportation and stuff. It’s that wealth inequality is bonkers and libertarian rich people all want to live together. We need to bring back disdain for the asshole in the BMW like we had in my day.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:43 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I guess I’m echoing that these people have no desire or ability to build a functioning town with people of all incomes, jobs, backgrounds, and societal roles. It’s hard enough to keep things running in existing cities and it’s not all just about transportation and stuff. It’s that wealth inequality is bonkers and libertarian rich people all want to live together. We need to bring back disdain for the asshole in the BMW like we had in my day.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:43 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
Lords with private armies, and serfs.
Looking forward tothe boot in the face, forever glorious new future!
posted by Marky at 3:56 PM on March 12
Looking forward to
posted by Marky at 3:56 PM on March 12
I'd expect Habitat for Humanity got money for heat pumps or solar panels or something. Afaik I've no idea who they'll really targeted, but the journalist describe the breadth of the EPA grants by noting Habitat for Humanity.
I strongly suggest the rest of the world disentangles itself from the US financial system and regulators ASAP, because all those US financial regulations could be turnned against Trump's opponents anywhere.
In particular, banks should be split up so that the US regulators have no sway over whatever holds accounts for locals, while seperate investment arms could still hold US accounts. If not seperated, then Justin Trudeau or whoever shall have their personal and/or campaign funding stolen whenever Trump pushes the annexation of Canada.
America has made itself the center of a global surveillance and fiscal control network. Non-Americans either disable that network or else the network gets used against them.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:11 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I strongly suggest the rest of the world disentangles itself from the US financial system and regulators ASAP, because all those US financial regulations could be turnned against Trump's opponents anywhere.
In particular, banks should be split up so that the US regulators have no sway over whatever holds accounts for locals, while seperate investment arms could still hold US accounts. If not seperated, then Justin Trudeau or whoever shall have their personal and/or campaign funding stolen whenever Trump pushes the annexation of Canada.
America has made itself the center of a global surveillance and fiscal control network. Non-Americans either disable that network or else the network gets used against them.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:11 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
This story has been on my radar for the past week because Trump first announced it by targeting Stacey Abrams in a completely unhinged attack claiming she personally was responsible for stealing the $2 billion of this grant. Abrams in an attorney for one of the non-profits who received the grant. The Georgia political trolls who consider Abrams to be the anti-Christ for being a Black woman who is smarter than them have been all over this story this week. Fact-checking Trump’s claim that a group ‘headed up’ by Stacey Abrams received $2 billion
posted by hydropsyche at 4:20 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:20 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
Hey everybody! Move to my town so I can cosplay GOD. Old Testament style.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 4:43 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 4:43 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
These people have all the money in the world but they live in mostly-empty rooms and eat gray goo so they can live to 400. They do not care about pleasure in the slightest. They want power, and money, for the sake of the having.
Or even Richard Morgan.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:43 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Or even Richard Morgan.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:43 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
If step one in your "libertarian" plan is "Let's get the government to give us a bunch of land for free," that's not a libertarian plan, that's a grift. But perhaps I repeat myself.
posted by Western Infidels at 8:12 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
posted by Western Infidels at 8:12 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
Relatedly, Curtis Yarvin on Gaza.
If I were given a choice between a quick death and clicking that link, I choose death with a smile on my face.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 8:41 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
If I were given a choice between a quick death and clicking that link, I choose death with a smile on my face.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 8:41 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Does no one read Niven & Pournelle anymore?
Niven & Pournelle contributed materially to *waves hands* all this, via pushing Reagan on stupid space military bullshit and pouring poisonous ideas into the heads of W's advisors via SIGMA.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:15 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Niven & Pournelle contributed materially to *waves hands* all this, via pushing Reagan on stupid space military bullshit and pouring poisonous ideas into the heads of W's advisors via SIGMA.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:15 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
If I were given a choice between a quick death and clicking that link, I choose death with a smile on my face.
I'll sum it up for you: "Wasn't it nice of the IDF to do the demolition for us; I'm also a fucking psychopath". That's it.
posted by jokeefe at 1:41 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
I'll sum it up for you: "Wasn't it nice of the IDF to do the demolition for us; I'm also a fucking psychopath". That's it.
posted by jokeefe at 1:41 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
I could almost accept a Norlonto if it came with the Felix Dzershinksy Worker's Defense Collective
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:04 PM on March 14
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:04 PM on March 14
If I were given a choice between a quick death and clicking that link, I choose death with a smile on my face.
I'll sum it up for you: "Wasn't it nice of the IDF to do the demolition for us; I'm also a fucking psychopath". That's it.
For the purpose of contextualizing what is now happening in Gaza, it recommends starving the entire population out on foot, because that's how 'siege warfare' to force population movements was done for thousands of years pre-industrialization, and so it is 'actually normal,' etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:43 AM on March 15
I'll sum it up for you: "Wasn't it nice of the IDF to do the demolition for us; I'm also a fucking psychopath". That's it.
For the purpose of contextualizing what is now happening in Gaza, it recommends starving the entire population out on foot, because that's how 'siege warfare' to force population movements was done for thousands of years pre-industrialization, and so it is 'actually normal,' etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:43 AM on March 15
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posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:50 AM on March 12 [59 favorites]