The world, filtered through the apps, is not the world we want
March 13, 2025 1:47 AM Subscribe
This sounds spectacularly self-centered: that you can only quit a thing, or modify your usage of it, when it fails to serve you. But if we think of our phones and social media as addictive products, which they certainly are, then the classic addiction model makes sense: you only consider quitting when the negative impacts (the dead feeling of the soft-brain scroll, the loss of attention span, the weight of comparison, the exposure to trolls, the lack of control over the algorithm) outweigh the positive benefits (the distraction, the serotonin hit, the semblance of connection, the loose ties, the business benefits). from The Social Media Sea Change by Anne Helen Petersen
The tipping point for me was the quick ruining by Musk of Twitter for the very specific purpose of amplifying his personality cult and electing Trump, and the serial reporting on Zuckerberg’s enthusiastic embrace of authoritarians.
As much pleasure and connection as I have gotten out of social media, it’s very obvious at this point it is politically toxic, and will probably prove to be a specific danger to individual users in the United States if things continue down their current trajectory.
posted by reedbird_hill at 4:28 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
As much pleasure and connection as I have gotten out of social media, it’s very obvious at this point it is politically toxic, and will probably prove to be a specific danger to individual users in the United States if things continue down their current trajectory.
posted by reedbird_hill at 4:28 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
I didn’t realise how cool it was to be somewhere and only you and the person you’re with know it. it was weird that I didn’t know this, or had forgotten this - like I was under a spell.
It reminds me of something Freya Moon wrote about the Gen-Z belief that posting is what makes something “real” — a boyfriend, a vacation, a meal. We have mistaken others’ recognition of a thing for actual experiencing the thing.
A play in two acts.
It's great to read about people disentangling themselves from the social media hate farms. I would certainly love to see an accelerating trend in that direction... But I'm skeptical it'll ever happen in large numbers.
Zuck and company have spent a lot of time and money on refining both the addictive properties and determining just how much psychological warfare you can wage on a person and keep them coming back. And they've proven how immensely profitable it can be.
If the recent TikTok / Red Note thing is any indication, people will simply pick another, different authoritarian-friendly, privacy-sundering, human-destroying hate farm rather than disconnecting entirely.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 4:32 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
It reminds me of something Freya Moon wrote about the Gen-Z belief that posting is what makes something “real” — a boyfriend, a vacation, a meal. We have mistaken others’ recognition of a thing for actual experiencing the thing.
A play in two acts.
It's great to read about people disentangling themselves from the social media hate farms. I would certainly love to see an accelerating trend in that direction... But I'm skeptical it'll ever happen in large numbers.
Zuck and company have spent a lot of time and money on refining both the addictive properties and determining just how much psychological warfare you can wage on a person and keep them coming back. And they've proven how immensely profitable it can be.
If the recent TikTok / Red Note thing is any indication, people will simply pick another, different authoritarian-friendly, privacy-sundering, human-destroying hate farm rather than disconnecting entirely.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 4:32 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Every year for the last 13 or 14 years I've been doing Dry January. I've also had most notifications and badges turned off on my phone for years. In 2017 I decided to add social media to Dry January. None on the phone, none on the computer. Gradually I started doing this into February. Then a few years ago I just didn't put Facebox back. Then I removed the reddit app. Last year I deleted my Twitter account and didn't replace it with Bluesky. This year I deleted my Meta accounts and replaced them with nothing.
I wouldn't say I've been as distractionless as Peterson in terms of scrolling because of Metafilter.
posted by Captaintripps at 4:35 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
I wouldn't say I've been as distractionless as Peterson in terms of scrolling because of Metafilter.
posted by Captaintripps at 4:35 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
Yeah, we don't usually like to call it that because it doesn't feel as slimy and shitty as the others, but MeFi and AskMe and all the sites here are quintessentially social media. I once got a lot of downvotes on Reddit for pointing out that site is also social media. People, (especially younger ones?) seem to think that some social media "counts" and some doesn't. But MeFi is definitely not intentionally addictive and awful. Something to do with lack of endless scroll, algorithmic content flow, filthy oligarch scum, etc.
For me the big change was upgrading/downgrading to tiny smartphone. I can waste time on my laptop or desktop for sure, but for me the phone was what was making it bad. I can check a few sites there, but it's too cramped and uncomfortable to linger for hours. So I get the technical ability to connect if I really need/want to, but not the pervasive urge to whip it out and be there. YMMV, but I highly recommend this as a middle ground for those who struggle a bit with social media usage but aren't ready to nuke everything yet.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:24 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]
For me the big change was upgrading/downgrading to tiny smartphone. I can waste time on my laptop or desktop for sure, but for me the phone was what was making it bad. I can check a few sites there, but it's too cramped and uncomfortable to linger for hours. So I get the technical ability to connect if I really need/want to, but not the pervasive urge to whip it out and be there. YMMV, but I highly recommend this as a middle ground for those who struggle a bit with social media usage but aren't ready to nuke everything yet.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:24 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]
Endless scroll is a big difference.
I don't have Tiktok, but a few Youtube creators that I subscribe to will post shorts. There's no way to watch them without being directed into the endless scrolling shorts feed. And because shorts are so, well, <>short, they're not really designed for individual viewing anyway. Before long, I found myself watching a single short, then another, then another...
The first few were enjoyable because they were from people I follow or closely related to my interests. But Youtube ran out of those fast, and I eventually realized that I'd spent an hour of my precious life mindlessly flicking through mostly garbage. And I could have kept going.
I thought about a video I saw a while ago, where a Youtube creator explained her approach to fighting this aspect of social media: stop every five minutes and evaluate whether you're getting something out of it, how it makes you feel. Well, I felt like I was wasting my time. If I needed easy, mindless entertainment to decompress, I'd rather reread a favorite book, watch some silly television show, or something like that. But I didn't even need to decompress at that time, I just had been hooked by the endless scroll.
I'm currently looking for extensions to see if I can block shorts from appearing for me on Youtube.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:03 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
I don't have Tiktok, but a few Youtube creators that I subscribe to will post shorts. There's no way to watch them without being directed into the endless scrolling shorts feed. And because shorts are so, well, <>short, they're not really designed for individual viewing anyway. Before long, I found myself watching a single short, then another, then another...
The first few were enjoyable because they were from people I follow or closely related to my interests. But Youtube ran out of those fast, and I eventually realized that I'd spent an hour of my precious life mindlessly flicking through mostly garbage. And I could have kept going.
I thought about a video I saw a while ago, where a Youtube creator explained her approach to fighting this aspect of social media: stop every five minutes and evaluate whether you're getting something out of it, how it makes you feel. Well, I felt like I was wasting my time. If I needed easy, mindless entertainment to decompress, I'd rather reread a favorite book, watch some silly television show, or something like that. But I didn't even need to decompress at that time, I just had been hooked by the endless scroll.
I'm currently looking for extensions to see if I can block shorts from appearing for me on Youtube.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:03 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
> you only consider quitting when the negative impacts … outweigh the positive benefits
Well, yeah? It doesn't make sense if you just up and quit using something because "Hey, this thing is f-----g awesome, but I'm gonna stop using because it's so [insert one: useful / fun / informative / covered in bees (if that's your thing, go for it)]".
Using something because the positive effects outweigh the negative effects doesn't really seem like addiction.
The positive benefits listed, however, leave a lot to be desired on the personal front (other than the serotonin hit and maybe the distraction). Everyone listed there is a positive for someone or something other than the user, so they seem like negatives when considering the person.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 6:07 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Well, yeah? It doesn't make sense if you just up and quit using something because "Hey, this thing is f-----g awesome, but I'm gonna stop using because it's so [insert one: useful / fun / informative / covered in bees (if that's your thing, go for it)]".
Using something because the positive effects outweigh the negative effects doesn't really seem like addiction.
The positive benefits listed, however, leave a lot to be desired on the personal front (other than the serotonin hit and maybe the distraction). Everyone listed there is a positive for someone or something other than the user, so they seem like negatives when considering the person.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 6:07 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
This article How To Stop Doomscrolling has a few tips, but is a bit skewed to the iPhone.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:19 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:19 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Almost to the month, I’ve been on a similar trajectory to Petersen, with similar results. My partner uses BlueSky heavily and gets a lot of genuine value and connection out of it, which is awesome, but there just isn’t any pull there for me.
To be fair, I have removed all social media apps from my phone. I also have a hard cutoff time when it comes to using MeFi/Blue Sky/IG; I participate online in between tasks at work, or maybe in between living my offline life on weekends, but once I leave the office or do stuff on the weekends, I am not interested. I don't snap pics for the 'Gram on my phone or write my stupid little comments on Blue Sky because I don't have access on the one object that allows me to do that away from my laptop. That is on purpose.
posted by Kitteh at 6:20 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
To be fair, I have removed all social media apps from my phone. I also have a hard cutoff time when it comes to using MeFi/Blue Sky/IG; I participate online in between tasks at work, or maybe in between living my offline life on weekends, but once I leave the office or do stuff on the weekends, I am not interested. I don't snap pics for the 'Gram on my phone or write my stupid little comments on Blue Sky because I don't have access on the one object that allows me to do that away from my laptop. That is on purpose.
posted by Kitteh at 6:20 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
It's weird to watch people ditch big social media sites and then immediately try to replicate the experience in other ways. When I talk to people about mastodon and how positive the experiences I have there are, they often get confused until I explain that I don't use the local/global feeds. Honestly, they shouldn't even be there. Once you turn them off, it's delightful. It's not "social" if you're primarily hearing from or being judged by strangers.
One of the primary joys of the internet is that you are free to establish connections of choice, not circumstance. You aren't stuck with the kids in your high school or the people in your workplace or local bar. If somebody is being a jerk, or a loudmouth, or just gloomy all the time, you don't need to listen to them. It's often helpful to them if you don't. A huge proportion of livejournal was people having low-key tragedy competitions, and I don't feel like that helped anyone. People will inevitably get stuck in bubbles, but we don't need to provide the additional feedback loop of "six thousand strangers enjoyed your unhealthy wallow". And we don't need to have one feed for all your communities! You can have a phpbb forum for sneaker collecting where people don't talk about politics. Wild! This is why subreddits and discords are so popular, people!
tl;dr: your experience of the internet will always come down to curation, and if you let a company or algorithm curate for you, you will, eventually, have a sad.
posted by phooky at 6:21 AM on March 13 [13 favorites]
One of the primary joys of the internet is that you are free to establish connections of choice, not circumstance. You aren't stuck with the kids in your high school or the people in your workplace or local bar. If somebody is being a jerk, or a loudmouth, or just gloomy all the time, you don't need to listen to them. It's often helpful to them if you don't. A huge proportion of livejournal was people having low-key tragedy competitions, and I don't feel like that helped anyone. People will inevitably get stuck in bubbles, but we don't need to provide the additional feedback loop of "six thousand strangers enjoyed your unhealthy wallow". And we don't need to have one feed for all your communities! You can have a phpbb forum for sneaker collecting where people don't talk about politics. Wild! This is why subreddits and discords are so popular, people!
tl;dr: your experience of the internet will always come down to curation, and if you let a company or algorithm curate for you, you will, eventually, have a sad.
posted by phooky at 6:21 AM on March 13 [13 favorites]
I'm currently looking for extensions to see if I can block shorts from appearing for me on Youtube.
I have two that do this: (I use Chrome):
Shorts Blocker
Blocktube (this blocks a broad-ish range of generally annoying shit)
In addition, I also have Adblock for Youtube, which does exactly what it says on the tin; Autoplay stopper, which does that for Facebook or other social media sites as well as Youtube; and SponsorBlock, which automatically detects the creator's "this content is sponsored by" segments or "if you like this video, please like and subscribe" segments and skips over them.
For Facebook I also have FB Purity - this is available for multiple browsers (Firefox, Chrome, Edge, Safari, and Opera), and the developer is VERY responsive to the many coding changes Facebook rolls out to get around blockers. FB Purity also has an EXHAUSTIVE number of ways you can customize your Facebook feed - you can block entire sections of the screen (block out the chat column or all reels, block out entire categories of posts), you can stop it from notifying you about certain types of activity, you can even filter posts that feature certain keywords. It also filters out ALL the ads. No seriously, ALL. ....From time to time Facebook tweaks its code to get around adblockers, and so the developer has a Facebook page so users can go tell him "hey, I'm seeing sponsored posts again" and then he goes to work figuring out the code and rolling out a new version of the extension that counters that.
I do still use Facebook; and it's largely because of FB Purity. The other major thing I do is that I never send OR accept a friend request unless it's someone I actually met in real life, or it's a group I've specifically chosen to join; this keeps me with a low friend list, but it's much better curated.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:24 AM on March 13 [16 favorites]
I have two that do this: (I use Chrome):
Shorts Blocker
Blocktube (this blocks a broad-ish range of generally annoying shit)
In addition, I also have Adblock for Youtube, which does exactly what it says on the tin; Autoplay stopper, which does that for Facebook or other social media sites as well as Youtube; and SponsorBlock, which automatically detects the creator's "this content is sponsored by" segments or "if you like this video, please like and subscribe" segments and skips over them.
For Facebook I also have FB Purity - this is available for multiple browsers (Firefox, Chrome, Edge, Safari, and Opera), and the developer is VERY responsive to the many coding changes Facebook rolls out to get around blockers. FB Purity also has an EXHAUSTIVE number of ways you can customize your Facebook feed - you can block entire sections of the screen (block out the chat column or all reels, block out entire categories of posts), you can stop it from notifying you about certain types of activity, you can even filter posts that feature certain keywords. It also filters out ALL the ads. No seriously, ALL. ....From time to time Facebook tweaks its code to get around adblockers, and so the developer has a Facebook page so users can go tell him "hey, I'm seeing sponsored posts again" and then he goes to work figuring out the code and rolling out a new version of the extension that counters that.
I do still use Facebook; and it's largely because of FB Purity. The other major thing I do is that I never send OR accept a friend request unless it's someone I actually met in real life, or it's a group I've specifically chosen to join; this keeps me with a low friend list, but it's much better curated.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:24 AM on March 13 [16 favorites]
Something to do with lack of endless scroll, algorithmic content flow, filthy oligarch scum, etc.
Exactly. My criteria are:
- can I curate what I'm seeing, or am I a slave to the algorithm?
- is it owned by Meta?
Under those self-imposed rules, I can use MetaFilter and even Reddit just fine. I generally don't read either on my phone, my laptop makes for a so much more comfortable experience. Doing these things on a phone feels to me like I'm watching a movie through the mail slot.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:25 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Exactly. My criteria are:
- can I curate what I'm seeing, or am I a slave to the algorithm?
- is it owned by Meta?
Under those self-imposed rules, I can use MetaFilter and even Reddit just fine. I generally don't read either on my phone, my laptop makes for a so much more comfortable experience. Doing these things on a phone feels to me like I'm watching a movie through the mail slot.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:25 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
If you’re on a small instance, Mastodon’s local feed is *great*. Here’s posts from people in the community you’ve joined. Once there’s more than a couple hundred active people in a place it’s useless though. And all Masto’s new development is influenced by the fact that the flagship instance is *way* too fucking huge for anything to be really healthy any more.
posted by egypturnash at 6:32 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 6:32 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Yeah, we don't usually like to call it that because it doesn't feel as slimy and shitty as the others, but MeFi and AskMe and all the sites here are quintessentially social media. I once got a lot of downvotes on Reddit for pointing out that site is also social media. People, (especially younger ones?) seem to think that some social media "counts" and some doesn't. But MeFi is definitely not intentionally addictive and awful. Something to do with lack of endless scroll, algorithmic content flow, filthy oligarch scum, etc.
Endless scroll is a relative term when talking about some of the particularly doomy topics/U.S. politics, or if, like me, you're a drama addict and read MeTa mostly for entertainment.
But yes, the lack of endless scroll is certainly a boon. I also still use YouTube heavily and find it entertaining and useful and simple to disengage from.
posted by Captaintripps at 6:40 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Endless scroll is a relative term when talking about some of the particularly doomy topics/U.S. politics, or if, like me, you're a drama addict and read MeTa mostly for entertainment.
But yes, the lack of endless scroll is certainly a boon. I also still use YouTube heavily and find it entertaining and useful and simple to disengage from.
posted by Captaintripps at 6:40 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Haven't had FB or Insta on my phone since after 2016. I was frankly shocked that more people didn't make the connection between the election and that horrific company, and take the step of deleting the apps. Over time, this became especially true as regards Instagram, which a lot of people seem to regard as magically separate from the classic "gestures broadly, all of this." Nowadays, of course my initial shock has just faded into the background of quiet dismay that I feel about, well, (gestures broadly) all of this.
I quit using reddit not long after when I noticed that I was getting a lot more push content. Also, I just felt the utility of the thing slipping away. I still have my account, and I flip over there once and awhile and... yeah, I'm not missing anything. I'm also pretty sure that most of what ends up frontpaging is highly manipulated, but hey, maybe that's just me.
All in all, this is a great article. I hope more people follow this trend. But I'm pretty positive that most won't.
And here's why. As JustSayNoDawg says "Using something because the positive effects outweigh the negative effects doesn't really seem like addiction."
But here's the thing: It never seems like addiction.
I'm not at all a professional, but as a lay person, I would say that the sort of ipso facto definition we have of what is addictive is that the negative effects are distorted and obscured by the cognitive habits formed around the combination of the payoff and side effects of the addictive behavior. Just like the gambler and the drinker are always in control, the social media user doesn't perceive the low grade depression or understand the way they are being politically and philosophically influenced. But that doesn't mean those things aren't happening.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 6:49 AM on March 13 [12 favorites]
I quit using reddit not long after when I noticed that I was getting a lot more push content. Also, I just felt the utility of the thing slipping away. I still have my account, and I flip over there once and awhile and... yeah, I'm not missing anything. I'm also pretty sure that most of what ends up frontpaging is highly manipulated, but hey, maybe that's just me.
All in all, this is a great article. I hope more people follow this trend. But I'm pretty positive that most won't.
And here's why. As JustSayNoDawg says "Using something because the positive effects outweigh the negative effects doesn't really seem like addiction."
But here's the thing: It never seems like addiction.
I'm not at all a professional, but as a lay person, I would say that the sort of ipso facto definition we have of what is addictive is that the negative effects are distorted and obscured by the cognitive habits formed around the combination of the payoff and side effects of the addictive behavior. Just like the gambler and the drinker are always in control, the social media user doesn't perceive the low grade depression or understand the way they are being politically and philosophically influenced. But that doesn't mean those things aren't happening.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 6:49 AM on March 13 [12 favorites]
I have never had the Facebook app on my phone—I just check it in the browser. It used to be a pretty comparable experience, but obviously they want you to install the app so they can steal more data, so they’ve gradually worsened the phone browser experience until it’s well nigh unusable, with occasional popups reminding you to download the app. Fine for quickly checking for an update on a friend’s surgery or lost puppy, but useless for longer use.
Same for the Facebook Messenger app—don’t want it, never had it. Text me or email me or leave me alone.
On my laptop, i use FB Purity, which makes all the difference.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:26 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Same for the Facebook Messenger app—don’t want it, never had it. Text me or email me or leave me alone.
On my laptop, i use FB Purity, which makes all the difference.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:26 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
I think it's interesting hearing how different people are handling social media.
I've been increasingly unhappy at Facebook for a long time, but it has allowed me to develop real friendships with some people I already knew from twice-yearly events we were usually at together. It let me know them better than you can know someone just from conferences and similar things.
But what has finally made me really shift my usage just lately isn't how evil Facebook is, or how much less useful it keeps getting: it's my friends. Since the election, they seem to have devoted themselves to posting nothing but unsourced hot takes on the news, terrible news they want to make sure we're not missing, and their own panicked reactions to things. I'm the most sympathetic to people expressing their feelings, because we're all definitely having feelings these days, but when people are just tossing up their unprocessed anxiety and despair, it gets to be a bit much. I have an anxiety disorder that has been really well controlled for years and years—decades, even—but one way I manage it is to avoid exposing myself to others' anxieties when they're in pure expression mode rather than talking about their anxieties.
I still use Facebook; I scroll through every couple of days, and I still post a bit. But I'm much, much less engaged—and so are some of my favorite people from Facebook, who are also stepping back for similar reasons.
I had an interesting moment when BlueSky suddenly got big. I set up an account—and then realized I'm not actually interested in having more of that kind of social media, that it's not an imperative, and that I could just choose not to be there. I have a couple of old friends who just never joined any social media, ever, and remembering them has let me remember that I don't have to have it, either, and I don't have to try to recreate what I liked about, say, Facebook in an earlier time.
I had my own mental health challenges during the month after the election, and found myself putting my phone on "do not disturb" during that time. I got used to it, and now, unless I'm expecting a specific call, my phone is almost always on "do not disturb." Nothing bad has happened!
I've been paying attention to my own thinking. Many years ago, I spent a month at a writing retreat in rural northern Minnesota. When I find myself thinking about that time, I am always glad I was there in the time before cell phones. I wrote letters, and every few days I hiked to a nearby resort to call home from a payphone, but mostly I was just there, at the retreat, actually retreating from life at home. I have a three-month residency coming up this summer, and am planning, not to do without social media at all, but to be, if anything, even more cautious about it than I am now.
All of that said, I depend very much on the ability to be online. I have a disability, and being able to attend events, and lead events, online is really important for me to be able to do my work. So I hope not to throw any babies out with any bathwater.
posted by Well I never at 8:39 AM on March 13 [12 favorites]
I've been increasingly unhappy at Facebook for a long time, but it has allowed me to develop real friendships with some people I already knew from twice-yearly events we were usually at together. It let me know them better than you can know someone just from conferences and similar things.
But what has finally made me really shift my usage just lately isn't how evil Facebook is, or how much less useful it keeps getting: it's my friends. Since the election, they seem to have devoted themselves to posting nothing but unsourced hot takes on the news, terrible news they want to make sure we're not missing, and their own panicked reactions to things. I'm the most sympathetic to people expressing their feelings, because we're all definitely having feelings these days, but when people are just tossing up their unprocessed anxiety and despair, it gets to be a bit much. I have an anxiety disorder that has been really well controlled for years and years—decades, even—but one way I manage it is to avoid exposing myself to others' anxieties when they're in pure expression mode rather than talking about their anxieties.
I still use Facebook; I scroll through every couple of days, and I still post a bit. But I'm much, much less engaged—and so are some of my favorite people from Facebook, who are also stepping back for similar reasons.
I had an interesting moment when BlueSky suddenly got big. I set up an account—and then realized I'm not actually interested in having more of that kind of social media, that it's not an imperative, and that I could just choose not to be there. I have a couple of old friends who just never joined any social media, ever, and remembering them has let me remember that I don't have to have it, either, and I don't have to try to recreate what I liked about, say, Facebook in an earlier time.
I had my own mental health challenges during the month after the election, and found myself putting my phone on "do not disturb" during that time. I got used to it, and now, unless I'm expecting a specific call, my phone is almost always on "do not disturb." Nothing bad has happened!
I've been paying attention to my own thinking. Many years ago, I spent a month at a writing retreat in rural northern Minnesota. When I find myself thinking about that time, I am always glad I was there in the time before cell phones. I wrote letters, and every few days I hiked to a nearby resort to call home from a payphone, but mostly I was just there, at the retreat, actually retreating from life at home. I have a three-month residency coming up this summer, and am planning, not to do without social media at all, but to be, if anything, even more cautious about it than I am now.
All of that said, I depend very much on the ability to be online. I have a disability, and being able to attend events, and lead events, online is really important for me to be able to do my work. So I hope not to throw any babies out with any bathwater.
posted by Well I never at 8:39 AM on March 13 [12 favorites]
one thing that’s helped me disconnect — as evidence, see my radically reduced activity on metafilter — is to always use a vpn and always pick a server somewhere in the free world. generally i use icelandic servers, since as far as i can tell that’s the country with laws best suited to safety, freedom, and human thriving. the slowdown involved in routing all my requests halfway across an ocean and back provides just enough friction to keep me from infinite scrolling through dumb words that make me feel bad. i’ve also made a point of avoiding anything that requires me to be logged in, both because it makes me less likely to post or comment and because those sites are likely to keep tabs on my activity. i certainly don’t want, to take one obvious example, reddit to track my engagement with content related to nintendo characters and cory doctorow short stories. my exception is (of course) metafilter, and now I’m wondering if it still has a warrant canary up.
the thing that got me started on this was a recent rewatch of v for vendetta, which was a fun flick aside from how in half the scenes i wanted to scream about how everyone but v was using terrible infosec practices. like, come on people, you’re living in a fascist dictatorship, please remember to act like it. afterward i was like “oh. wait. i’m living in a fascist dictatorship! and i’m not acting like it!”
anyway. infosec aside, i’ve started referring to the Internet as “the screaming,” with a capital t and a capital s, and let me tell you it feels nice to have radically less of the screaming in my life.
posted by Sperry Topsider at 8:47 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]
the thing that got me started on this was a recent rewatch of v for vendetta, which was a fun flick aside from how in half the scenes i wanted to scream about how everyone but v was using terrible infosec practices. like, come on people, you’re living in a fascist dictatorship, please remember to act like it. afterward i was like “oh. wait. i’m living in a fascist dictatorship! and i’m not acting like it!”
anyway. infosec aside, i’ve started referring to the Internet as “the screaming,” with a capital t and a capital s, and let me tell you it feels nice to have radically less of the screaming in my life.
posted by Sperry Topsider at 8:47 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]
I always feel like an alien in these discussions on MF.
I use Facebook because that's where my close and weak social people are at, period. There is no way I'm talking my neighbourhood free stuff group or my neighbourhood community group or my kid's parent group onto a Mastodon instance.
I believe these connections are important -- like crucially important as people seek to divide and conquer. And yeah, they can come with a lot of shit but...on my feed they kind of mostly don't.
I also enjoy FB marketplace and FB messenger to message the people on those groups and then we also have a lot of stealth businesses in my neighbourhood like the secret sourdough baker and the secret samosa maker and they even now have the backyard secret baker/maker market that moves around run through FB mostly with a side of Instagram.
It's where my local food bank info goes. It's where the dog rescue posts for fosters. A few weeks ago one of the members of my community group was hospitalized and we organized *40 meals* for her family.
I enjoy that because it's not church-based so I don't have to go sit through the religious part to be able to drop a meal to someone I really only know from the wild 1970s stuff she gives away on the free stuff group, but I did and she posted today that it helped and now people will keep doing it and...I dunno guys, for me there's just a lot of good in knowing some people behind the front doors.
Of course we chat up our neighbours on the street but this is like, 8 blocks down.
Even more, the reason so many people are on FB/Insta/WhatsApp is because they are not only participating in all those things but it's also where they follow their cousins in Cebu City or whatever. Bookmarking 40 forums and having 8 apps on the phone for all this stuff is a lot of work. Being able to talk people onto YOUR platform is a lot of work and also means there are a lot of people not there, maybe new people, people with young kids, fairly recent immigrants, etc.
Imagine if you had several phones in your house and had to use different ones depending on whose network you were calling.
FB is like the yellow pages + church bulletin in my sphere and yeah, it's also gross (although I actually seem to have curated my feed enough that Threads even gets my personal echo chamber kind of right). And it could vanish. And all kinds of things.
But all this "just don't use it" is just not relevant in my world if I want to connect with my community where they are at.
This actually is getting more important to me as Google gets worse.
And then there's like, the fun aspects. I like travel influencers because I can't afford to go all those places. I like comedy clips from Josh Johnson on IG. I like endless dog stuff and the guy who asks people what their rent is and then goes into their highly curated and decorated wild apartments in NYC and all those clips. I just like them, that's all. That's the addictive/time wasting part that I do limit so that I can write my book and hopefully finish setting up an environment for the moderation committee and all that, but I enjoy it almost as much as reading a book. This part of my life -- which I think for a lot of people is a main use of social media -- I agree with the Petersen post about. It's good to be conscious of it.
But I don't consider it not-understandable. It's the same curiosity that drives us to consume media in general.
Anyways...I guess I sort of? envy people who live ascetic lives where they don't feel the need to build connections with people where those people are. Or who have time to do it in person and not by commenting at 9:37 pm from the bathtub. But as caregiver/parent/worker but also friend/neighbour/volunteer, it's a tool I find helps me be more of a contributor.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:56 AM on March 13 [29 favorites]
I use Facebook because that's where my close and weak social people are at, period. There is no way I'm talking my neighbourhood free stuff group or my neighbourhood community group or my kid's parent group onto a Mastodon instance.
I believe these connections are important -- like crucially important as people seek to divide and conquer. And yeah, they can come with a lot of shit but...on my feed they kind of mostly don't.
I also enjoy FB marketplace and FB messenger to message the people on those groups and then we also have a lot of stealth businesses in my neighbourhood like the secret sourdough baker and the secret samosa maker and they even now have the backyard secret baker/maker market that moves around run through FB mostly with a side of Instagram.
It's where my local food bank info goes. It's where the dog rescue posts for fosters. A few weeks ago one of the members of my community group was hospitalized and we organized *40 meals* for her family.
I enjoy that because it's not church-based so I don't have to go sit through the religious part to be able to drop a meal to someone I really only know from the wild 1970s stuff she gives away on the free stuff group, but I did and she posted today that it helped and now people will keep doing it and...I dunno guys, for me there's just a lot of good in knowing some people behind the front doors.
Of course we chat up our neighbours on the street but this is like, 8 blocks down.
Even more, the reason so many people are on FB/Insta/WhatsApp is because they are not only participating in all those things but it's also where they follow their cousins in Cebu City or whatever. Bookmarking 40 forums and having 8 apps on the phone for all this stuff is a lot of work. Being able to talk people onto YOUR platform is a lot of work and also means there are a lot of people not there, maybe new people, people with young kids, fairly recent immigrants, etc.
Imagine if you had several phones in your house and had to use different ones depending on whose network you were calling.
FB is like the yellow pages + church bulletin in my sphere and yeah, it's also gross (although I actually seem to have curated my feed enough that Threads even gets my personal echo chamber kind of right). And it could vanish. And all kinds of things.
But all this "just don't use it" is just not relevant in my world if I want to connect with my community where they are at.
This actually is getting more important to me as Google gets worse.
And then there's like, the fun aspects. I like travel influencers because I can't afford to go all those places. I like comedy clips from Josh Johnson on IG. I like endless dog stuff and the guy who asks people what their rent is and then goes into their highly curated and decorated wild apartments in NYC and all those clips. I just like them, that's all. That's the addictive/time wasting part that I do limit so that I can write my book and hopefully finish setting up an environment for the moderation committee and all that, but I enjoy it almost as much as reading a book. This part of my life -- which I think for a lot of people is a main use of social media -- I agree with the Petersen post about. It's good to be conscious of it.
But I don't consider it not-understandable. It's the same curiosity that drives us to consume media in general.
Anyways...I guess I sort of? envy people who live ascetic lives where they don't feel the need to build connections with people where those people are. Or who have time to do it in person and not by commenting at 9:37 pm from the bathtub. But as caregiver/parent/worker but also friend/neighbour/volunteer, it's a tool I find helps me be more of a contributor.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:56 AM on March 13 [29 favorites]
If everyone's always meeting at the nazi bar because that's where everyone hangs out, then maybe it's a good place to decide as a group to find somewhere else to meet that isn't a nazi bar?
Also, I get that we're all more or less held captive by these sites and that there's no ethical consumption under late-stage capitalism, but that doesn't mean we have to defend our captivity when someone criticizes it. It just sounds so defeatist to argue about how absolutely impossible it is to consider any alternative. Facebook sucks. Surely in at least some abstract sense, whatever benefit it's providing cannot possibly outweigh the what it's doing to destroy our country?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:07 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
Also, I get that we're all more or less held captive by these sites and that there's no ethical consumption under late-stage capitalism, but that doesn't mean we have to defend our captivity when someone criticizes it. It just sounds so defeatist to argue about how absolutely impossible it is to consider any alternative. Facebook sucks. Surely in at least some abstract sense, whatever benefit it's providing cannot possibly outweigh the what it's doing to destroy our country?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:07 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
Alec from the Youtube channel Technology Connections recently discussed this . He frames it as going from an internet where you're getting content you actively looked for vs. sites feeding you the content they want you to see.
I don't know how as a society we'll get past the fact that self curation is always going to be less engaging to the majority of people.
posted by axlan at 9:36 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
I don't know how as a society we'll get past the fact that self curation is always going to be less engaging to the majority of people.
posted by axlan at 9:36 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
maybe it's a good place to decide as a group
That's the thing with weak social ties, it's not really a group, it's just people. It's hard enough to move a 10-person group chat from WhatsApp to Signal.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:43 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
That's the thing with weak social ties, it's not really a group, it's just people. It's hard enough to move a 10-person group chat from WhatsApp to Signal.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:43 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
Any tips on getting off of reddit or YouTube? I've been off "social media" for a few years now, but those two still take up a lot of my internet free time. MetaFilter fills me with joy due to it's slow pace and curated content, so I'd like it to be the only site I really check. Just wish I could keep my browser from giving me access to those other sites.
posted by donuy at 9:46 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by donuy at 9:46 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
It's a shame that so much of the world got caught up using FB trying to "build communities" but also were really shoveling money into the gaping insatiable maw of Zuck and his evil whims. It's not my fault so many people decided to throw in with shitty tech-bro-wannabe-despots, but I do increasingly feel dirty for my (now very minimal) FB use. And while they may have "built" in the sense of advertising for members and posting content, they certainly didn't build any of the stuff necessary to run the thing, so of course they feel a little unprepared to manage that side of things for themselves. But you know what? PTA and knitting circles and anarchist reading clubs and mutual aid groups worked just fine before FB. It's not, in fact, critically necessary.
Yes, I like to "meet people where they are" but when that place is gross and actively predatory, I will only show up rarely and with full protective gear. Even if you set up a cozy little tea shop, it's not a cool place to visit if it's surrounded by vomit on the street and pickpockets. People will do what they feel is easy and convenient, and for me right now that's saying to people I talk to on FB "hey can we please move this conversation to text, here's my number".
just wish I could keep my browser from giving me access to those other sites. There are tons of plugins/extensions for that. Leechblock is one I've used and liked. It's very customizable, e.g. I would limit to X min of Reddit during work hours, or ban certain sites completely. You can even make it really inconvenient and fiddly to turn off the restrictions if you want, and it's available for most browsers.
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:47 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Yes, I like to "meet people where they are" but when that place is gross and actively predatory, I will only show up rarely and with full protective gear. Even if you set up a cozy little tea shop, it's not a cool place to visit if it's surrounded by vomit on the street and pickpockets. People will do what they feel is easy and convenient, and for me right now that's saying to people I talk to on FB "hey can we please move this conversation to text, here's my number".
just wish I could keep my browser from giving me access to those other sites. There are tons of plugins/extensions for that. Leechblock is one I've used and liked. It's very customizable, e.g. I would limit to X min of Reddit during work hours, or ban certain sites completely. You can even make it really inconvenient and fiddly to turn off the restrictions if you want, and it's available for most browsers.
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:47 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
I'd probably subscribe to Nebula and Dropout if I wanted to switch away from YouTube, though of course that's mostly because half of my YouTube content is from creators that show up there.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:48 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:48 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
If everyone's always meeting at the nazi bar because that's where everyone hangs out, then maybe it's a good place to decide as a group to find somewhere else to meet that isn't a nazi bar?
My neighbourhood group is 1100 people, plus all the other groups, but thanks!
posted by warriorqueen at 9:50 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
My neighbourhood group is 1100 people, plus all the other groups, but thanks!
posted by warriorqueen at 9:50 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
But you know what? PTA and knitting circles and anarchist reading clubs and mutual aid groups worked just fine before FB. It's not, in fact, critically necessary.
This cracks me up. I was there man, I grew up in the 70s and 80s and we just did not have support and knew we were alone weirdos in the world. My social circle was church, plus school friends. The PTA was then (as now) a total clique, very unlike the parent group where all the parents can join even if they work night shift on PTA meeting night.
In all seriousness, I'd love to hear how your Mastodon is helping you walk the new neighbour through kindergarten registration or finding the right teacher for your kid with autism, or fundraising for a family whose house burned down that you don't know the names of. Or is it that you aren't involved in those things?
posted by warriorqueen at 9:56 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
This cracks me up. I was there man, I grew up in the 70s and 80s and we just did not have support and knew we were alone weirdos in the world. My social circle was church, plus school friends. The PTA was then (as now) a total clique, very unlike the parent group where all the parents can join even if they work night shift on PTA meeting night.
In all seriousness, I'd love to hear how your Mastodon is helping you walk the new neighbour through kindergarten registration or finding the right teacher for your kid with autism, or fundraising for a family whose house burned down that you don't know the names of. Or is it that you aren't involved in those things?
posted by warriorqueen at 9:56 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
warriorqueen: Anyways...I guess I sort of? envy people who live ascetic lives where they don't feel the need to build connections with people where those people are.
There is nothing ascetic about my life, I don't think. It's just that many of the people I want to build connections with are on Signal and other platforms that I can stomach.
It's not a given that everyone lives on FB. Honestly it's a little weird and vaguely unfriendly to assume that people who don't use FB don't want to build connections. I hope (and in fact assume) that's not what you meant to say.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:58 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
There is nothing ascetic about my life, I don't think. It's just that many of the people I want to build connections with are on Signal and other platforms that I can stomach.
It's not a given that everyone lives on FB. Honestly it's a little weird and vaguely unfriendly to assume that people who don't use FB don't want to build connections. I hope (and in fact assume) that's not what you meant to say.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:58 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
Or is it that you aren't involved in those things?
I have a neighborhood email list, and another adjacent one I'm about to join. There are several in my area, each covering some number of blocks or streets, plus people who used to live on those streets, and sometimes their new neighbors etc. I also walk around and chat with people. Some of them I text with. I have plenty of contact with my real local neighborhood outside FB.
Look, you came in here basically making an impassioned defense of FB, ignoring all the real harm it's doing, and then accuse anyone who's not on it or reducing involvement of being anti-social and unhelpful, while positioning yourself as some sort of community champion. You do you, idc if you're on FB. But when I say I don't need it and get skeeved out by what I'm supporting when I go there, maybe let that be? This post is about backing away from places like FB, maybe let people talk about that instead of going on repeatedly about how super awesome it is?
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:07 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
I have a neighborhood email list, and another adjacent one I'm about to join. There are several in my area, each covering some number of blocks or streets, plus people who used to live on those streets, and sometimes their new neighbors etc. I also walk around and chat with people. Some of them I text with. I have plenty of contact with my real local neighborhood outside FB.
Look, you came in here basically making an impassioned defense of FB, ignoring all the real harm it's doing, and then accuse anyone who's not on it or reducing involvement of being anti-social and unhelpful, while positioning yourself as some sort of community champion. You do you, idc if you're on FB. But when I say I don't need it and get skeeved out by what I'm supporting when I go there, maybe let that be? This post is about backing away from places like FB, maybe let people talk about that instead of going on repeatedly about how super awesome it is?
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:07 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
It's not a given that everyone lives on FB. Honestly it's a little weird and vaguely unfriendly to assume that people who don't use FB don't want to build connections. I hope (and in fact assume) that's not what you meant to say.
I think people who are attached to a platform, rather than a geographic group, are by definition prioritizing the platform over the people. I was deliberate about saying that, meaning geographically, although I will happily add NextDoor and Reddit to FB.
And I'll admit that I think in general people who are using Signal and Mastodon and bashing the incomprehensible nature of people who use more popular/user-friendly platforms are generally people who aren't engaged in the grunt work of getting caregiving done (kids, seniors, etc.) That's totally a bias but I'll own it.
In my particular geographic area there's an emphasis on Facebook in particular because of where Facebook rolled out phones...Weebo and TikTok are also prominent platforms. All of those platforms are problematic.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:09 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
I think people who are attached to a platform, rather than a geographic group, are by definition prioritizing the platform over the people. I was deliberate about saying that, meaning geographically, although I will happily add NextDoor and Reddit to FB.
And I'll admit that I think in general people who are using Signal and Mastodon and bashing the incomprehensible nature of people who use more popular/user-friendly platforms are generally people who aren't engaged in the grunt work of getting caregiving done (kids, seniors, etc.) That's totally a bias but I'll own it.
In my particular geographic area there's an emphasis on Facebook in particular because of where Facebook rolled out phones...Weebo and TikTok are also prominent platforms. All of those platforms are problematic.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:09 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
I have a neighborhood email list, and another adjacent one I'm about to join.
Well, in my neighbourhood it's FB. Like, I accept yours is email lists but it must be really different demographically from mine.
Look, it's fine, but these threads are always incredibly elitist about the poor masses that are on FB, when what I see on mine is people doing the work of making their communities really great. I was going to answer some of the questions Petersen asks as the bottom of her piece - but yeah, it's the usual chat in here.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:18 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Well, in my neighbourhood it's FB. Like, I accept yours is email lists but it must be really different demographically from mine.
Look, it's fine, but these threads are always incredibly elitist about the poor masses that are on FB, when what I see on mine is people doing the work of making their communities really great. I was going to answer some of the questions Petersen asks as the bottom of her piece - but yeah, it's the usual chat in here.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:18 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
My neighbourhood group is 1100 people, plus all the other groups, but thanks!
But you have a direct line to all 1100 of those people through Facebook, so why not use Facebook to have a discussion about moving away from Facebook?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:21 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
But you have a direct line to all 1100 of those people through Facebook, so why not use Facebook to have a discussion about moving away from Facebook?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:21 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
But you have a direct line to all 1100 of those people through Facebook, so why not use Facebook to have a discussion about moving away from Facebook?
I've done my best to explain it to you. Those people are also connecting with their family on Facebook, and all the other groups. They are possibly also on IG, TikTok (the younger ones), maybe Weibo for those with family in China. Where I live is Scarborough is sort of middle-middle class (if you bought your house before 2011) and includes some social housing, some high rise apartments. Retirees who've been here 30 years and recently-arrived immigrants. Nurses, ultrasound techs, small business owners, plus white collar workers.
Maybe that's the difference, but people are tired and busy and they are not going to go learn an esoteric platform. I was thinking about the email lists but unless it's a list that allows for easy subscribe/unsubscribe, which would open the group up to spam in a way that's easier to control for on FB, it's just not going to happen. Facebook is where they are chatting with their aunt in Nigeria or whatever.
That includes me. There's been so much churn just getting our small moderation committee on a platform that I'm almost ready to throw in the towel (not really. But we're going lower tech and it's stalled out while I set it up.) I really am envious of people who can organize their lives so fulsomely, but I'm also suspicious of the parameters.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:31 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
I've done my best to explain it to you. Those people are also connecting with their family on Facebook, and all the other groups. They are possibly also on IG, TikTok (the younger ones), maybe Weibo for those with family in China. Where I live is Scarborough is sort of middle-middle class (if you bought your house before 2011) and includes some social housing, some high rise apartments. Retirees who've been here 30 years and recently-arrived immigrants. Nurses, ultrasound techs, small business owners, plus white collar workers.
Maybe that's the difference, but people are tired and busy and they are not going to go learn an esoteric platform. I was thinking about the email lists but unless it's a list that allows for easy subscribe/unsubscribe, which would open the group up to spam in a way that's easier to control for on FB, it's just not going to happen. Facebook is where they are chatting with their aunt in Nigeria or whatever.
That includes me. There's been so much churn just getting our small moderation committee on a platform that I'm almost ready to throw in the towel (not really. But we're going lower tech and it's stalled out while I set it up.) I really am envious of people who can organize their lives so fulsomely, but I'm also suspicious of the parameters.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:31 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
I've moved in the opposite direction from the author of this article, and it's because of the news.
For instance, I had a child two years ago, and my husband and I decided we didn't want to be those parents who were always on their phones and not fully present for their children. So we both made a conscious effort to just not use phones, social media, etc around our toddler and I stuck to just checking a a few sites on my lunch break or after the baby went to bed. And it honestly wasn't that hard, because there was the baby to focus on instead!
Now I've just had a second kid, and she's probably too small to really know the difference just yet but I am on my phone constantly while breastfeeding....because of the news.
I know some people are dealing with US political news by pulling way back but I know I will be directly affected and being able to talk about what's going on in an informed way is important to me.
I don't get my news from social media, i'm subscribed to a half-dozen substacks and I get updates via email. Then I share a few of the really scary stories on discord or repost them to - yes - social media. I have a Tumblr which honestly these days is one of the least terrible social media choices. Am I making a difference by reposting news to Tumblr? Probably not much of one. But it does mean that when I want to find something I read a few days ago I can.
posted by subdee at 10:35 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
For instance, I had a child two years ago, and my husband and I decided we didn't want to be those parents who were always on their phones and not fully present for their children. So we both made a conscious effort to just not use phones, social media, etc around our toddler and I stuck to just checking a a few sites on my lunch break or after the baby went to bed. And it honestly wasn't that hard, because there was the baby to focus on instead!
Now I've just had a second kid, and she's probably too small to really know the difference just yet but I am on my phone constantly while breastfeeding....because of the news.
I know some people are dealing with US political news by pulling way back but I know I will be directly affected and being able to talk about what's going on in an informed way is important to me.
I don't get my news from social media, i'm subscribed to a half-dozen substacks and I get updates via email. Then I share a few of the really scary stories on discord or repost them to - yes - social media. I have a Tumblr which honestly these days is one of the least terrible social media choices. Am I making a difference by reposting news to Tumblr? Probably not much of one. But it does mean that when I want to find something I read a few days ago I can.
posted by subdee at 10:35 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
In my area, WhatsApp is the big thing. It is a whole lot more popular than Signal, but you can't really say it's more userfriendly. Not anymore.
I'm not sure what Nextdoor is. I don't think that's a thing here.
I help my elderly mother, who is ill (possibly chronically so) and in a lot of pain. When I'm not with her, we communicate through Signal. She finds it just as easy as WhatsApp.
Look, I'm not telling you that you need to do things differently. That's not my place; you know your circumstances best. But please don't make unkind assumptions about me just because I do things the way I do.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:37 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure what Nextdoor is. I don't think that's a thing here.
I help my elderly mother, who is ill (possibly chronically so) and in a lot of pain. When I'm not with her, we communicate through Signal. She finds it just as easy as WhatsApp.
Look, I'm not telling you that you need to do things differently. That's not my place; you know your circumstances best. But please don't make unkind assumptions about me just because I do things the way I do.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:37 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Alec from the Youtube channel Technology Connections recently discussed this. He frames it as going from an internet where you're getting content you actively looked for vs. sites feeding you the content they want you to see.
I thought Alec was discussing a concept that had been named and identified early on, in the Internet era: Lean Forward vs. Lean Back media. At least initially (this was before web-sites with video became common) Lean Forward meant reading: books, magazines, or web-sites; and Lean Back was all about the passive watching, of movies and TV (and listening to the radio, as well). Doom-scrolling and especially flipping through videos is now Lean Back, too. And whenever you're typing into a Social Media text window - well, that's obviously Lean Forward engagement.
posted by Rash at 10:48 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
I thought Alec was discussing a concept that had been named and identified early on, in the Internet era: Lean Forward vs. Lean Back media. At least initially (this was before web-sites with video became common) Lean Forward meant reading: books, magazines, or web-sites; and Lean Back was all about the passive watching, of movies and TV (and listening to the radio, as well). Doom-scrolling and especially flipping through videos is now Lean Back, too. And whenever you're typing into a Social Media text window - well, that's obviously Lean Forward engagement.
posted by Rash at 10:48 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
"I have a neighborhood email list, and another adjacent one I'm about to join. There are several in my area, each covering some number of blocks or streets, plus people who used to live on those streets, and sometimes their new neighbors etc. I also walk around and chat with people. Some of them I text with. I have plenty of contact with my real local neighborhood outside FB."
Different nuances in my neighbourhood, but a similar experience. There are definitely Facebook groups, but I have never participated in them. A lot of our mutual aid organizing happens on reddit. Same with political organizing. None of the parent groups or caregiving support that I participate in is on Meta platforms. I also live in a very walkable area, so in-person is probably much easier than in places where people who have to drive.
I have to say my disconnection from most social media has actually reconnected me locally and individually through text, email, and in person. I also find that, well, there's more to talk about in person because I don't know everything going on with my friends and neighbours at any given time.
posted by Captaintripps at 10:52 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Different nuances in my neighbourhood, but a similar experience. There are definitely Facebook groups, but I have never participated in them. A lot of our mutual aid organizing happens on reddit. Same with political organizing. None of the parent groups or caregiving support that I participate in is on Meta platforms. I also live in a very walkable area, so in-person is probably much easier than in places where people who have to drive.
I have to say my disconnection from most social media has actually reconnected me locally and individually through text, email, and in person. I also find that, well, there's more to talk about in person because I don't know everything going on with my friends and neighbours at any given time.
posted by Captaintripps at 10:52 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Not all social media is the same. I know Reddit counts as social media, but there is a difference.
Reddit (tends to be) far less personal and more anonymous. I know that's not entirely true. And I know my info is bought and sold. But I only join subreddits for hobby stuff, art, history, weird topics, science and other things that interest me generally.
Sure I get pushed some stuff from outside those zones, national news stories pop up, but reddit is not (as much as) a group of people fronting their online identities. I have a meaningless username. I'm sure you could comb through my reddit history and eventually figure out who I am (I belong to my city's subreddit, and some even more local ones too) but IME, reddit is more targeted towards specific interests versus other social media.
I used to use Facebook heavily. But I never leaned into the political side. I liked to share funny or interesting links with friends, share pics if I went somewhere, see pics from extended family, etc. I rarely check Facebook now... maybe once a month. The ads they push me tend to be for clothing (technical underwear and stuff like that) and I really don't see much politically charged content of any kind.
I never clicked with Twitter or Instagram. I kind of just grew away from social media. And lo and behold - two years ago I got a job overseeing social media for a nonprofit! We are not posting hot Gen Z memes or anything, so my elderly approach to social media is pretty much fine.
posted by SoberHighland at 11:02 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Reddit (tends to be) far less personal and more anonymous. I know that's not entirely true. And I know my info is bought and sold. But I only join subreddits for hobby stuff, art, history, weird topics, science and other things that interest me generally.
Sure I get pushed some stuff from outside those zones, national news stories pop up, but reddit is not (as much as) a group of people fronting their online identities. I have a meaningless username. I'm sure you could comb through my reddit history and eventually figure out who I am (I belong to my city's subreddit, and some even more local ones too) but IME, reddit is more targeted towards specific interests versus other social media.
I used to use Facebook heavily. But I never leaned into the political side. I liked to share funny or interesting links with friends, share pics if I went somewhere, see pics from extended family, etc. I rarely check Facebook now... maybe once a month. The ads they push me tend to be for clothing (technical underwear and stuff like that) and I really don't see much politically charged content of any kind.
I never clicked with Twitter or Instagram. I kind of just grew away from social media. And lo and behold - two years ago I got a job overseeing social media for a nonprofit! We are not posting hot Gen Z memes or anything, so my elderly approach to social media is pretty much fine.
posted by SoberHighland at 11:02 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Warriorqueen fwiw I am the primary caregiver for my small child, active in a few community support activities, and last year founded a new group dedicated to an aspect of community improvement. All of it is going forward without using FB for primary comms. And my community is at the heart of an old small city, we have pretty good diversity scores on socioeconomics and ethnicity. It's a weird bias to think that people who don't want to support the awful shit that FB does must not be caregivers or active in their community, you might want to work on that.
All it really says is that for me, the harm done by FB outweighs the benefits. Clearly you don't mind the harms or think they are outweighed by the convenience of the tool. I just cant stomach the destabilizing of democracy at home and abroad, the involvement with elections and misinformation, etc. I guess it's not a deal-breaker for you, and that's fine too. Lots of people disagree about that kind of thing, but let's please not bring in side accusations about "not wanting to build connections with people", or calling the other folks elitist. Honestly it feels really patronizing to me to act like less privileged people are just incapable of ever living without FB.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:52 AM on March 13 [13 favorites]
All it really says is that for me, the harm done by FB outweighs the benefits. Clearly you don't mind the harms or think they are outweighed by the convenience of the tool. I just cant stomach the destabilizing of democracy at home and abroad, the involvement with elections and misinformation, etc. I guess it's not a deal-breaker for you, and that's fine too. Lots of people disagree about that kind of thing, but let's please not bring in side accusations about "not wanting to build connections with people", or calling the other folks elitist. Honestly it feels really patronizing to me to act like less privileged people are just incapable of ever living without FB.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:52 AM on March 13 [13 favorites]
I like endless scroll. Saves me a button click to the 'next page' button.
What I don't like, and why I'm backing away from social media is that it supposedly farms all my interests - heck I fill them out - but it actually serves me almost the opposite of what I'm interested in, and it's gotten markedly worse (not that it was ever 'good'). I guess they are going for hate clicks now, but I'm not interested in that. It's like they are trying to drive me away.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:24 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
What I don't like, and why I'm backing away from social media is that it supposedly farms all my interests - heck I fill them out - but it actually serves me almost the opposite of what I'm interested in, and it's gotten markedly worse (not that it was ever 'good'). I guess they are going for hate clicks now, but I'm not interested in that. It's like they are trying to drive me away.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:24 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
I just want to chime in on the impact of the endless scroll. I'm a regular reddit user. My day almost always starts with a coffee on the couch and my laptop browser open to reddit. When reddit upgraded its UI years ago to switch from feeding you a page at a time to the endless scroll, I elected to stay with a page at a time. I cruise through the first 500 posts in my feed dipping in here and there. When I reach 500, I stop.
When I was on the bad place (twitter) the only option was the endless scroll and I would get so sucked in that I'd look up from my feed an hour later hardly realizing that that much time had gone by. I've had reddit in the browser default back to endless scroll a couple of times now and the way that it sucks you in is vicious. My content doesn't change but my engagement is significantly corrupted.
posted by kaymac at 12:31 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
When I was on the bad place (twitter) the only option was the endless scroll and I would get so sucked in that I'd look up from my feed an hour later hardly realizing that that much time had gone by. I've had reddit in the browser default back to endless scroll a couple of times now and the way that it sucks you in is vicious. My content doesn't change but my engagement is significantly corrupted.
posted by kaymac at 12:31 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
That's the thing with weak social ties, it's not really a group, it's just people.
This is exactly why Facebook wields such power.
If your group can't live without Facebook--if despite everyone being in the same proximate location your group lacks the cohesiveness and organization in real life to pull up stakes and move to a different virtual platform--then are you actually a community group?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:08 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
This is exactly why Facebook wields such power.
If your group can't live without Facebook--if despite everyone being in the same proximate location your group lacks the cohesiveness and organization in real life to pull up stakes and move to a different virtual platform--then are you actually a community group?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:08 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
I don't get my news from social media, i'm subscribed to a half-dozen substacks
Substack is also social media, and a Nazi bar, fwiw.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:27 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Substack is also social media, and a Nazi bar, fwiw.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:27 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
you can’t minimize the strength of the genuine for-reals hold that the facebook guy has on people using his platforms — the collective action problem with getting off of it is real and it is diabolical, and if it weren’t both real and diabolical people would have ditched those platforms a long time ago.
basically by sticking itself between you and your friends, temu octavian has held your connections with those friends hostage, and the only way to get out of the trap is if everyone jumps ship together. which is not a plausible demand. if it worked that way, everyone would have already gotten out. just because you know that you and your friends are mutually held hostage doesn’t mean that you can magically escape from the hostage situation.
not that the end of facebook won’t eventually come! the collapse of that sort of platform happens very very slowly and then suddenly all at once. the trick is, when the collapse happens everyone has to diligently avoid falling into a similar trap.
posted by Sperry Topsider at 1:30 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
basically by sticking itself between you and your friends, temu octavian has held your connections with those friends hostage, and the only way to get out of the trap is if everyone jumps ship together. which is not a plausible demand. if it worked that way, everyone would have already gotten out. just because you know that you and your friends are mutually held hostage doesn’t mean that you can magically escape from the hostage situation.
not that the end of facebook won’t eventually come! the collapse of that sort of platform happens very very slowly and then suddenly all at once. the trick is, when the collapse happens everyone has to diligently avoid falling into a similar trap.
posted by Sperry Topsider at 1:30 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Something that I appreciated about Johann Hari's book that touches on this topic, Stolen Focus, is that while he starts with a vignette about the time he went cold turkey, he then essentially spends the bulk of the book exploring how his initial experiment was overly simplistic. He makes the case that the problem isn't cell phones, but rather how certain platforms are designed to be addictive and bring out the worst in human behavior. He encourages people to ask, "What sort of activity or knowledge sharing or engagement does this platform encourage? And how does that match (or not) what I want to do and/or see in the world?"
For a lot of Apps, there isn't an easy answer - I'd say both FB and Reddit fit into this. For the latter, individual subs can have radically different vibes and norms. Some are small communities, some are large and unwieldy, some have strict moderation, others are very lax. r/politics, for example, is a mess. Whereas r/baking is a nice place to get help from more experienced bakers or see some inspiration photos of pastries I'll likely never master. My partner is into a lot of gardening and plant subs. There may be toxic parts of Reddit, but they are really easy to avoid. Likewise, I have no doubt that for some people FB groups are a productive way to communicate with various groups (local or not), and it's easy to just engage with those groups and avoid the bad parts. Things may change, but at this point I find it easy to spend about an average of 5min per day on FB and only see content from people I know - I'm concerned too with the harm FB/Meta funds, but I can't imagine they profit much from the very minimal attention I give it. I never click on any ads or even linger on them. Twitter and BlueSky are equally bad for me personally - the former may be more odious in terms of its societal impact, but they both reward "hot takes" and antagonism and poor listening - I don't find that sort of environment great for my mental health.
Another point that Hari makes that I agree with is that nothing will really change until more people demand their representatives start regulating tech. Endless scroll should be illegal, as should a lot of other addictive design choices. Or, we need to make it illegal for social media companies to monetize attention. None of these social media tech people deserve to be as rich as they are, not all "economic growth" is good - if all you've done is found a way to harvest human attention by addicting them to rage bait, you haven't contributed anything productive even if you're able to sell ads. It will be hard now given how much power (econ and political and social) these tech titians have now, but history is rife with examples where ordinary people succeeded in rejecting attention harvesting - Tim Wu's book "The Attention Merchants" covers this terrain - I strongly recommend.
posted by coffeecat at 1:48 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
For a lot of Apps, there isn't an easy answer - I'd say both FB and Reddit fit into this. For the latter, individual subs can have radically different vibes and norms. Some are small communities, some are large and unwieldy, some have strict moderation, others are very lax. r/politics, for example, is a mess. Whereas r/baking is a nice place to get help from more experienced bakers or see some inspiration photos of pastries I'll likely never master. My partner is into a lot of gardening and plant subs. There may be toxic parts of Reddit, but they are really easy to avoid. Likewise, I have no doubt that for some people FB groups are a productive way to communicate with various groups (local or not), and it's easy to just engage with those groups and avoid the bad parts. Things may change, but at this point I find it easy to spend about an average of 5min per day on FB and only see content from people I know - I'm concerned too with the harm FB/Meta funds, but I can't imagine they profit much from the very minimal attention I give it. I never click on any ads or even linger on them. Twitter and BlueSky are equally bad for me personally - the former may be more odious in terms of its societal impact, but they both reward "hot takes" and antagonism and poor listening - I don't find that sort of environment great for my mental health.
Another point that Hari makes that I agree with is that nothing will really change until more people demand their representatives start regulating tech. Endless scroll should be illegal, as should a lot of other addictive design choices. Or, we need to make it illegal for social media companies to monetize attention. None of these social media tech people deserve to be as rich as they are, not all "economic growth" is good - if all you've done is found a way to harvest human attention by addicting them to rage bait, you haven't contributed anything productive even if you're able to sell ads. It will be hard now given how much power (econ and political and social) these tech titians have now, but history is rife with examples where ordinary people succeeded in rejecting attention harvesting - Tim Wu's book "The Attention Merchants" covers this terrain - I strongly recommend.
posted by coffeecat at 1:48 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
if all you've done is found a way to harvest human attention by addicting them to rage bait, you haven't contributed anything productive even if you're able to sell ads
With all due respect to an otherwise excellent post, this is perhaps a bit naive. What they've done is to capture and direct social identity in a way that shapes political power. This is an eminently salable commodity. The question is not do they contribute anything of value, it is to whom is what they produce valuable.
Consider, forr whatever it's worth, that in terms of inflection points when everything really went to shit, Zuck going to Davos is not a bad pin on the map to start with.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 5:25 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
With all due respect to an otherwise excellent post, this is perhaps a bit naive. What they've done is to capture and direct social identity in a way that shapes political power. This is an eminently salable commodity. The question is not do they contribute anything of value, it is to whom is what they produce valuable.
Consider, forr whatever it's worth, that in terms of inflection points when everything really went to shit, Zuck going to Davos is not a bad pin on the map to start with.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 5:25 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
It's a weird bias to think that people who don't want to support the awful shit that FB does must not be caregivers or active in their community, you might want to work on that.
Fair, but on here this discussion is usually like "install your own mastodon" and historically has been very engineer-heavy. However, your point is well-taken.
then are you actually a community group
Yeah, we are. We're just one that's easily searchable, where you don't have to get a personal invitation and where the record of the group is also searchable. Where you can be looking for rehab for a parent from the hospital and not have to know who to call for advice, and so on. It is different than a personal contact list and that's what I value in it. When I had a 1.25 hr commute to work each way, I could still stay on top of school parent stuff without having to be at the playground or coordinate pink shirt day when I was on hospitalized bed rest with my youngest. People I barely knew really showed up for me, and now I pay it forward.
You can call those weak ties, but I've seen it over and over. I don't know how else we would have organized fridge donations for fresh foods coming from restaurants over the pandemic - there was a critical mass of people + small businesses all in the same place.
I dunno. I accept that people are using different tools, and certainly not everyone in my neighbourhood is on FB, but it's also nice that people don't have to be in the know to access it. I get really tired of people treating all social media the same and behaving as if it's a purity test, when I still believe a lot of the time it's because someone else in their life is doing a lot of the lifting.
But then Petersen removed her email from her phone too (didn't stop checking it all together), and that's not what I would call social media.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:48 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Fair, but on here this discussion is usually like "install your own mastodon" and historically has been very engineer-heavy. However, your point is well-taken.
then are you actually a community group
Yeah, we are. We're just one that's easily searchable, where you don't have to get a personal invitation and where the record of the group is also searchable. Where you can be looking for rehab for a parent from the hospital and not have to know who to call for advice, and so on. It is different than a personal contact list and that's what I value in it. When I had a 1.25 hr commute to work each way, I could still stay on top of school parent stuff without having to be at the playground or coordinate pink shirt day when I was on hospitalized bed rest with my youngest. People I barely knew really showed up for me, and now I pay it forward.
You can call those weak ties, but I've seen it over and over. I don't know how else we would have organized fridge donations for fresh foods coming from restaurants over the pandemic - there was a critical mass of people + small businesses all in the same place.
I dunno. I accept that people are using different tools, and certainly not everyone in my neighbourhood is on FB, but it's also nice that people don't have to be in the know to access it. I get really tired of people treating all social media the same and behaving as if it's a purity test, when I still believe a lot of the time it's because someone else in their life is doing a lot of the lifting.
But then Petersen removed her email from her phone too (didn't stop checking it all together), and that's not what I would call social media.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:48 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Yeah, we are.
If Facebook were to suffer some technical glitch and go offline for an extended period, would your group and all of the good it provides suddenly vanish? Would you be able to (pardon the pun) regroup without access to Facebook? If despite the fact that you all live in the same geographical community and all have the same collective interest in working for that community you can't organize without Facebook, then you're not actually a community group, you're an ad-hoc internet forum in a trenchcoat.
You can call those weak ties, but I've seen it over and over. I don't know how else we would have organized fridge donations for fresh foods coming from restaurants over the pandemic - there was a critical mass of people + small businesses all in the same place.
Weak ties can become strong ties. Facebook was great for getting people together in the first place, but if you're an established group that people are engaged in and value being a part of, you can collectively set your own destiny. If the group is important enough for people, they will follow it to whatever platform it lands on.
And please understand that when I say "platform", I'm not implying that everyone goes to Mastodon or some or some "engineer-heavy" solution--I'm just referring to something that isn't Facebook. Because if you're actually a group, you should be able to exist apart from Facebook whether it's on a Facebook-like platform or on flyers stapled to telephone poles or a community bulletin board because you all live in the same place!
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:21 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
If Facebook were to suffer some technical glitch and go offline for an extended period, would your group and all of the good it provides suddenly vanish? Would you be able to (pardon the pun) regroup without access to Facebook? If despite the fact that you all live in the same geographical community and all have the same collective interest in working for that community you can't organize without Facebook, then you're not actually a community group, you're an ad-hoc internet forum in a trenchcoat.
You can call those weak ties, but I've seen it over and over. I don't know how else we would have organized fridge donations for fresh foods coming from restaurants over the pandemic - there was a critical mass of people + small businesses all in the same place.
Weak ties can become strong ties. Facebook was great for getting people together in the first place, but if you're an established group that people are engaged in and value being a part of, you can collectively set your own destiny. If the group is important enough for people, they will follow it to whatever platform it lands on.
And please understand that when I say "platform", I'm not implying that everyone goes to Mastodon or some or some "engineer-heavy" solution--I'm just referring to something that isn't Facebook. Because if you're actually a group, you should be able to exist apart from Facebook whether it's on a Facebook-like platform or on flyers stapled to telephone poles or a community bulletin board because you all live in the same place!
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:21 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
Somewhere that isn't Facebook, that isn't engineer-heavy, that enables groups...
Where, exactly?
Slack starts putting up limits once you hit a certain number of people. Discord can be a little overwhelming with the constant chatter. Where, then?
Also, you wanna talk Nazi bar? This dang website can sometimes be a Nazi bar, if the eleventy billion Metatalk posts about how PoC or trans people are treated on here are to be believed.
posted by creatrixtiara at 1:54 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
Where, exactly?
Slack starts putting up limits once you hit a certain number of people. Discord can be a little overwhelming with the constant chatter. Where, then?
Also, you wanna talk Nazi bar? This dang website can sometimes be a Nazi bar, if the eleventy billion Metatalk posts about how PoC or trans people are treated on here are to be believed.
posted by creatrixtiara at 1:54 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
You don't believe that trans or POC people have ever been treated badly here? How strange. 🤔
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:07 AM on March 15
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:07 AM on March 15
I'm saying the posts are proof. I buttoned on my earlier account (divabat) because of it! I wrote those posts! I've gotten heinous racist messages on here that I haven't gotten anywhere else. I was the target of a weird attempt on Twitter by someone who used me as a cudgel of "the good PoC" against the mods here. I've lived the Mefi Nazi Bar!
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:42 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:42 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry my wording was imperfect but maybe try looking up my profile before trying to gotcha me
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:47 AM on March 15 [2 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:47 AM on March 15 [2 favorites]
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posted by Shepherd at 4:05 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]