The proof is not in the pudding
March 20, 2025 8:46 AM Subscribe
Trump Admin Unveils New Legal Standard: ‘We Have No Proof, Which Actually Proves Our Case’
Many deportees lacked any evidence of criminality, but the government argues that really makes them MORE criminals.
Joe Patrice:
Esteemed members of the jury, we have no motive or opportunity or physical evidence tying the defendant to the crime. But — in a sense — doesn’t it prove how good he was at covering it up?
We already know that several of these deported individuals had no apparent gang ties beyond “having tattoos,” which should concern everyone but especially America’s goth girls.
It should go without saying that the government shouldn’t imprison people — here or abroad — without any evidence of criminality. If the government thinks a non-criminal migrant presents a threat then they can kick them out of the country but they cannot unilaterally decide that their untested suspicions justify prison time in another country.
Many deportees lacked any evidence of criminality, but the government argues that really makes them MORE criminals.
Joe Patrice:
While it is true that many of the TdA members removed under the AEA do not have criminal records in the United States, that is because they have only been in the United States for a short period of time. The lack of a criminal record does not indicate they pose a limited threat. In fact, based upon their association with TdA, the lack of specific information about each individual actually highlights the risk they pose. It demonstrates that they are terrorists with regard to whom we lack a complete profile.That’s from the declaration of ICE Field Officer Robert Cerna claiming that their complete lack of any evidence is actually a PLUS because “the lack of specific information about each individual actually highlights the risk they pose.”
Esteemed members of the jury, we have no motive or opportunity or physical evidence tying the defendant to the crime. But — in a sense — doesn’t it prove how good he was at covering it up?
We already know that several of these deported individuals had no apparent gang ties beyond “having tattoos,” which should concern everyone but especially America’s goth girls.
It should go without saying that the government shouldn’t imprison people — here or abroad — without any evidence of criminality. If the government thinks a non-criminal migrant presents a threat then they can kick them out of the country but they cannot unilaterally decide that their untested suspicions justify prison time in another country.
Speaking as one of America's goth girls, I am actually more worried about America's goth guys on this one, heh. It seems like they're the ones currently getting the brunt of this. But it's not good for anyone.
posted by limeonaire at 8:59 AM on March 20
posted by limeonaire at 8:59 AM on March 20
This speedrun from "innocent until proven guilty" to "off with his head" is amazing in all the worst ways.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:01 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:01 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
Classic conspiracy thinking: the fact that I can find no evidence of your crimes just shows how clever you've been at covering them up.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:12 AM on March 20 [26 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 9:12 AM on March 20 [26 favorites]
I've made the mistake recently of getting into it with the friend-of-a-friend on social media; he tried parroting the argument above. But I think I may have found a good clapback: "Even Trump's team admits they don't have criminal records here in the US. Why are you so convinced they do - is it because they're not white?"
I haven't had an answer back yet. Which may be a victory in itself....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:18 AM on March 20 [32 favorites]
I haven't had an answer back yet. Which may be a victory in itself....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:18 AM on March 20 [32 favorites]
It should go without saying that the government shouldn’t imprison people — here or abroad — without any evidence of criminality
When Obama executed US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki with no evidence (none that was ever put before a court of justice) for being a Bad Hombre, Democrats told me they weren’t bothered because we could trust the president’s judgment.
I told them that when a Republican successor started doing the same thing, I hoped people would be honest enough to call it the Obama Doctrine.
posted by Lemkin at 9:19 AM on March 20 [53 favorites]
When Obama executed US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki with no evidence (none that was ever put before a court of justice) for being a Bad Hombre, Democrats told me they weren’t bothered because we could trust the president’s judgment.
I told them that when a Republican successor started doing the same thing, I hoped people would be honest enough to call it the Obama Doctrine.
posted by Lemkin at 9:19 AM on March 20 [53 favorites]
I cannot imagine what their families and especially these innocent fellow human beings are feeling.
I hate everything in this moment, from our growing callousness toward the suffering of others, to the rock solid lust for this among so many Americans, to the misery the Regime is gleefully infecting into our society, to the cowardice of the leaders of the 'opposition' - and lets pour one out for the the Admin of Columbia here, to the feeling of helplessness to help the vulnerable victims, to the future misery which will make today seem like a walk in the park.
Why does humanity seem to come back over and over and over to making as many members as miserable as possible. I understand the nuts and bolts of how Power does it, but in my bones I just don't understand being motivated and living your life to see others suffer.
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:28 AM on March 20 [19 favorites]
I hate everything in this moment, from our growing callousness toward the suffering of others, to the rock solid lust for this among so many Americans, to the misery the Regime is gleefully infecting into our society, to the cowardice of the leaders of the 'opposition' - and lets pour one out for the the Admin of Columbia here, to the feeling of helplessness to help the vulnerable victims, to the future misery which will make today seem like a walk in the park.
Why does humanity seem to come back over and over and over to making as many members as miserable as possible. I understand the nuts and bolts of how Power does it, but in my bones I just don't understand being motivated and living your life to see others suffer.
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:28 AM on March 20 [19 favorites]
If only there was a document that encapsulated all the rules and norms of our nation and guaranteed such rights as “innocent until proven guilty” to all people, not just citizens. Oh well.
posted by rikschell at 9:29 AM on March 20 [14 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 9:29 AM on March 20 [14 favorites]
The preceeding article linked in the OP article also has some choice points.
regarding the bullshit about the plane already being in international waters and thus not subject to the court order:
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:30 AM on March 20 [20 favorites]
regarding the bullshit about the plane already being in international waters and thus not subject to the court order:
Whenever maritime law comes up, you’re probably venturing into crackpot territory. This is a hallmark of the sovereign citizen movement who claim the United States can’t legally make laws because the flags in courtrooms have gold fringe. And, frankly, that might be the next argument advanced by the DOJ — the term is still young!and
As you might imagine, no, this is not how the law works. While a private individual might be able to take a boat into the middle of the ocean to sell trafficked panda meat or something, there is no legal basis for the United States government violating a United States court order simply because the plane — still fully within the command of the United States government — has ventured into the Gulf of Mexico. The Court order applies to the government and the government is still very much here.
They didn’t actually set out to defy a court order.How much this existing body of law, such as innocent until proven guilty, survives contact with the current Supreme “Thank you again. Won’t forget it” Court is yet to be determined of course.
“We wanted them on the ground first, before a judge could get the case, but this is how it worked out,” said the official.
Yeah, see, that still violates the court order.
The government would still have to return the prisoners to run through the existing justice process here even if they’d been assigned bunks in El Salvador’s slave camp. Because, contrary to administration claims that this is about foreign affairs, this is an immigration issue and until these people are actually CONVICTED of something, the government can only detain them for immigration processing and deport them. They cannot, for example, sell defendants to a foreign prison system!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:30 AM on March 20 [20 favorites]
is it because they're not white?
No. It's because they weigh the same as a duck, so they must be made of wood.
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
No. It's because they weigh the same as a duck, so they must be made of wood.
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
Stalin and the Secret Police would be so, so proud.
posted by pthomas745 at 9:44 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
posted by pthomas745 at 9:44 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
"Give me the facts and I will twist them to fit my argument"
Winston Churchill
posted by robbyrobs at 9:57 AM on March 20
Winston Churchill
posted by robbyrobs at 9:57 AM on March 20
With arguments this thin I wonder why they even bother.
Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
I guess centrists' willingness to expend energy engaging with this bullshit as if it's simply in good faith but misguided is part of it.
So much for the reality-based community.
posted by Reyturner at 10:14 AM on March 20 [9 favorites]
Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
I guess centrists' willingness to expend energy engaging with this bullshit as if it's simply in good faith but misguided is part of it.
So much for the reality-based community.
posted by Reyturner at 10:14 AM on March 20 [9 favorites]
Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
Was that not the point of the ASMR video on the Whitehouse twitter account?
posted by ryanrs at 10:19 AM on March 20 [11 favorites]
Was that not the point of the ASMR video on the Whitehouse twitter account?
posted by ryanrs at 10:19 AM on March 20 [11 favorites]
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague. He needs to start being afraid of EU connecting flights.
posted by ocschwar at 10:20 AM on March 20 [31 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 10:20 AM on March 20 [31 favorites]
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague.
The Pompatus of Hate.
posted by Grangousier at 10:25 AM on March 20 [49 favorites]
The Pompatus of Hate.
posted by Grangousier at 10:25 AM on March 20 [49 favorites]
Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
Bullies aren't content with merely getting their way, they have to also wreck the systems and relationships they force their way in to. Their goal is to center everyone's attention on the contrast between their will and our helplessness. Perverting, rather than being content to merely ignore, "the rules of the game," is part of that.
posted by Western Infidels at 11:14 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
Bullies aren't content with merely getting their way, they have to also wreck the systems and relationships they force their way in to. Their goal is to center everyone's attention on the contrast between their will and our helplessness. Perverting, rather than being content to merely ignore, "the rules of the game," is part of that.
posted by Western Infidels at 11:14 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
Not for the first time and not for the last, I remember having discussions with otherwise intelligent people in 2016 wherein they opined, with perfect conviction, "The whole system is rotten! Just burn it down and start over!" And rejected any further conversation about exactly what that would entail, or the impossibility of a Tabula Rasa state of governance, or any other attempt at maintaining a connection to reality.
Alas, the brains of many of our fellow citizens seem to have been cooked in their skulls.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 11:35 AM on March 20 [9 favorites]
Alas, the brains of many of our fellow citizens seem to have been cooked in their skulls.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 11:35 AM on March 20 [9 favorites]
Yeah, the only thing worse than what we've got is what we'd get if we had to start over in the current timeline. Can you imagine the jockeying of ghouls into position to hijack every shred of civil rights and democratic governance?
posted by Rykey at 11:51 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 11:51 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
We already know that several of these deported individuals had no apparent gang ties beyond “having tattoos,” which should concern everyone but especially America’s goth girls.
*cough* Hegseth *cough*
posted by nickmark at 11:54 AM on March 20 [8 favorites]
*cough* Hegseth *cough*
posted by nickmark at 11:54 AM on March 20 [8 favorites]
*Tattoos applied to white skin not subject to question or scrutiny*
posted by Rykey at 12:02 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 12:02 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
I told them that when a Republican successor started doing the same thing, I hoped people would be honest enough to call it the Obama Doctrine
It's absolutely true that this was wrong when Obama did it to Anwar al-Awlaki.
It's equally true that Donald Trump administration would not have given even .01 of a fuck if Obama had refrained. I mean, just imagine how much Tom Homan and/or Pete Hegseth would laugh if they were told, "But you can't do this! Obama didn't!"
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:06 PM on March 20 [21 favorites]
It's absolutely true that this was wrong when Obama did it to Anwar al-Awlaki.
It's equally true that Donald Trump administration would not have given even .01 of a fuck if Obama had refrained. I mean, just imagine how much Tom Homan and/or Pete Hegseth would laugh if they were told, "But you can't do this! Obama didn't!"
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:06 PM on March 20 [21 favorites]
I mean, I hate Real Madrid as much as any other FC Barcelona fan, but I wouldn't send someone to El Salvador for having a tattoo that looks like Madrid's logo: Man deported to El Salvador under Alien Enemies Act because of soccer logo tattoo:
"Linette Tobin is representing Jerce Reyes Barrios, a professional soccer player from Venezuela who protested the Maduro regime in February and March 2024 and was detained and tortured after one of the demonstrations."
posted by ceejaytee at 12:34 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
"Linette Tobin is representing Jerce Reyes Barrios, a professional soccer player from Venezuela who protested the Maduro regime in February and March 2024 and was detained and tortured after one of the demonstrations."
posted by ceejaytee at 12:34 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
It should go without saying that the government shouldn’t imprison people — here or abroad — without any evidence of criminality
if they ever decide to imprison people who are in actual fact convicted felons, well they know where to start
couchfuckers too, IMHO
posted by chavenet at 1:02 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
if they ever decide to imprison people who are in actual fact convicted felons, well they know where to start
couchfuckers too, IMHO
posted by chavenet at 1:02 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
I mean, just imagine how much Tom Homan and/or Pete Hegseth would laugh if they were told, "But you can't do this! Obama didn't!"
But perhaps we wouldn’t have slid the slippery slope to fascism without the many many greasings of former leaders. And maybe that’s important information to prevent from being memory holed if we ever get out of this mess?
posted by flamk at 1:04 PM on March 20 [14 favorites]
But perhaps we wouldn’t have slid the slippery slope to fascism without the many many greasings of former leaders. And maybe that’s important information to prevent from being memory holed if we ever get out of this mess?
posted by flamk at 1:04 PM on March 20 [14 favorites]
Well, this explains why they think Trump is trustworthy. If no evidence means you're a criminal, then a mountain of evidence must mean the inverse.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:20 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:20 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague
No, he and Holman need to be put into the very same circumstances that they've put these poor souls in.
Raging here.....
posted by WatTylerJr at 1:21 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
No, he and Holman need to be put into the very same circumstances that they've put these poor souls in.
Raging here.....
posted by WatTylerJr at 1:21 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:52 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:52 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Administration Officials Believe Order Lets Immigration Agents Enter Homes Without Warrants
It remains unclear whether the Trump administration will apply the law in this way. But such an interpretation, experts say, would infringe on basic civil liberties.
It remains unclear whether the Trump administration will apply the law in this way. But such an interpretation, experts say, would infringe on basic civil liberties.
Trump administration lawyers have determined that an 18th-century wartime law the president has invoked to deport suspected members of a Venezuelan gang allows federal agents to enter homes without a warrant, according to people familiar with internal discussions.posted by rambling wanderlust at 4:06 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
The disclosure reflects the Trump administration’s aggressive view of presidential power, including setting aside a key provision of the Fourth Amendment that requires a court order to search someone’s home.
It remains unclear whether the administration will apply the law in this way, but experts say such an interpretation would infringe on basic civil liberties and raise the potential for misuse. Warrantless entries have some precedent in America’s wartime history, but invoking the law in peacetime to pursue undocumented immigrants in such a way would be an entirely new application, they added.
“It undermines fundamental protections that are recognized in the Fourth Amendment, and in the due process clause,” said Christopher Slobogin, a law professor at Vanderbilt University.
I have a motion up tomorrow and I may argue that since that cop hasn't been arrested before, he's clearly a criminal liar. Can't wait to see what the judge says.
posted by Thrakburzug at 4:19 PM on March 20 [7 favorites]
posted by Thrakburzug at 4:19 PM on March 20 [7 favorites]
It's almost as if they're purposefully trying to see how far they have to push things over the cliff before people actually, truly begin to wake up and fight back.
I suppose that's what they actually want, though, so they can justify outright declaring martial law.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:21 PM on March 20 [1 favorite]
I suppose that's what they actually want, though, so they can justify outright declaring martial law.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:21 PM on March 20 [1 favorite]
Why bother waiting for a pretext to declare martial law at all?
I keep seeing people say this about the Trump administration trying to make people angry enough to protest so that they can declare martial law and I don't get why. Was it in Project 2025 or something?
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 4:51 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
I keep seeing people say this about the Trump administration trying to make people angry enough to protest so that they can declare martial law and I don't get why. Was it in Project 2025 or something?
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 4:51 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague
No, he and Holman need to be put into the very same circumstances that they've put these poor souls in.
First one and then the other my friends.
posted by VTX at 5:06 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
No, he and Holman need to be put into the very same circumstances that they've put these poor souls in.
First one and then the other my friends.
posted by VTX at 5:06 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
>Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
Bullies aren't content with merely getting their way, they have to also wreck the systems and relationships they force their way in to. Their goal is to center everyone's attention on the contrast between their will and our helplessness. Perverting, rather than being content to merely ignore, "the rules of the game," is part of that.
posted by Western Infidels
My previous comment on this mentality.
–––––––
It's almost as if they're purposefully trying to see how far they have to push things over the cliff before people actually, truly begin to wake up and fight back.
I suppose that's what they actually want, though, so they can justify outright declaring martial law.
posted by Thorzdad
That is exactly what they want. They are pushing the limits everywhere to find out where the weak points are, and where the resistance will come from, so as to better target their resources.
posted by Pouteria at 5:50 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Bullies aren't content with merely getting their way, they have to also wreck the systems and relationships they force their way in to. Their goal is to center everyone's attention on the contrast between their will and our helplessness. Perverting, rather than being content to merely ignore, "the rules of the game," is part of that.
posted by Western Infidels
My previous comment on this mentality.
–––––––
It's almost as if they're purposefully trying to see how far they have to push things over the cliff before people actually, truly begin to wake up and fight back.
I suppose that's what they actually want, though, so they can justify outright declaring martial law.
posted by Thorzdad
That is exactly what they want. They are pushing the limits everywhere to find out where the weak points are, and where the resistance will come from, so as to better target their resources.
posted by Pouteria at 5:50 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
When Obama executed US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki with no evidence
Face it, the U.S. has been doing this sort of thing since forever. The fact that this one time it happened to be a U.S. citizen is neither here nor there.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 7:30 PM on March 20
Face it, the U.S. has been doing this sort of thing since forever. The fact that this one time it happened to be a U.S. citizen is neither here nor there.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 7:30 PM on March 20
If they get enough resistance of the right kind they cave and reinstate the one thing, as long as it's a small thing, like a page on the governement website, and not something central to their mission, like delivering Ukraine or Russia or privatizing Social Security or eliminating governement oversight of Musk's businesses while awarding him huge defense contracts.
The attitude is to try everything and if it turns out they went too far, they'll just pretend to back off for a little while, and try again later.
posted by subdee at 8:54 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
The attitude is to try everything and if it turns out they went too far, they'll just pretend to back off for a little while, and try again later.
posted by subdee at 8:54 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
First, they came for the soccer players, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a soccer player.
Although with our current experience, I am reminded that first they came for Republicans who don't agree with them, similarily to the nazis. Adam Kinzinger and Mick Romney have repeatedly told how they regularly recieve threats from MAHAs. We would not be here if some more Republicans had shown integrity and courage.
As a last note: over on AskMe, I recommended Defying Hitler by Sebastian Haffner, a memoir of the years 1914-1933, and last night I took it out from it's shelf to reread it. You can read the Prologue and a few more pages on google books, and it is bone chilling. I can see from the price tag that I bought it almost 20 years ago, and had no idea that something similar would happen in my lifetime. I was angry at Bush, Blair and our own populist far right government. How quaint (though obviously they paved the way...)
posted by mumimor at 2:21 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
Because I was not a soccer player.
Although with our current experience, I am reminded that first they came for Republicans who don't agree with them, similarily to the nazis. Adam Kinzinger and Mick Romney have repeatedly told how they regularly recieve threats from MAHAs. We would not be here if some more Republicans had shown integrity and courage.
As a last note: over on AskMe, I recommended Defying Hitler by Sebastian Haffner, a memoir of the years 1914-1933, and last night I took it out from it's shelf to reread it. You can read the Prologue and a few more pages on google books, and it is bone chilling. I can see from the price tag that I bought it almost 20 years ago, and had no idea that something similar would happen in my lifetime. I was angry at Bush, Blair and our own populist far right government. How quaint (though obviously they paved the way...)
posted by mumimor at 2:21 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
setting aside a key provision of the Fourth Amendment
Setting aside is a heck of a euphemism.
posted by Literaryhero at 4:13 AM on March 21
Setting aside is a heck of a euphemism.
posted by Literaryhero at 4:13 AM on March 21
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague
As a resident of Den Haag, I would please appreciate the mess staying off of my streets. De Oranjehotel is open, however.
posted by Seeba at 6:18 AM on March 21
As a resident of Den Haag, I would please appreciate the mess staying off of my streets. De Oranjehotel is open, however.
posted by Seeba at 6:18 AM on March 21
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague
Hang on a second.
Could someone from the Hague actually surprise-meet Trump at the airport the next time he goes somewhere in Europe and arrest him there for Crimes Against Humanity?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:20 AM on March 21 [3 favorites]
Hang on a second.
Could someone from the Hague actually surprise-meet Trump at the airport the next time he goes somewhere in Europe and arrest him there for Crimes Against Humanity?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:20 AM on March 21 [3 favorites]
The attitude is to try everything and if it turns out they went too far, they'll just pretend to back off for a little while, and try again later.
Like a burglar jiggling doorknobs, to see which ones have been left open.
posted by gimonca at 6:25 AM on March 21 [6 favorites]
Like a burglar jiggling doorknobs, to see which ones have been left open.
posted by gimonca at 6:25 AM on March 21 [6 favorites]
The phrase some people are stretching for is The Overton Window
posted by Faintdreams at 7:08 AM on March 21
posted by Faintdreams at 7:08 AM on March 21
Could someone from the Hague actually surprise-meet Trump at the airport the next time he goes somewhere in Europe and arrest him there for Crimes Against Humanity?
Depends how many nuclear weapons they bring, I suppose. Zero? No way.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:21 AM on March 21
Depends how many nuclear weapons they bring, I suppose. Zero? No way.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:21 AM on March 21
This Is Just to Say
I have shredded
the laws
that upheld
your republic
and which
you probably
thought
were unbreakable
Forgive me
I was above them
so lawless
so free
posted by berkshiredogs at 8:40 AM on March 21 [14 favorites]
I have shredded
the laws
that upheld
your republic
and which
you probably
thought
were unbreakable
Forgive me
I was above them
so lawless
so free
posted by berkshiredogs at 8:40 AM on March 21 [14 favorites]
berkshiredogs, your poem makes me weep...
posted by a humble nudibranch at 10:09 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 10:09 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
mumimor, the link to the Haffner book rapidly disappears once you land on the page...... replaced by a box saying "no preview available"
Cause thats not worrisome......
posted by WatTylerJr at 11:58 AM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Cause thats not worrisome......
posted by WatTylerJr at 11:58 AM on March 21 [1 favorite]
WatTylerJr, I thought that would happen soon, but not this soon...
posted by mumimor at 12:31 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 12:31 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
As a resident of Den Haag, I would please appreciate the mess staying off of my streets. De Oranjehotel is open, however.
Do you not have a single working pillory you can dust off and install somewhere?
posted by ocschwar at 12:51 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Do you not have a single working pillory you can dust off and install somewhere?
posted by ocschwar at 12:51 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
FWIW, that Haffner excerpt is visible in the UK.
posted by epo at 12:58 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
posted by epo at 12:58 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
I have repeatedly wondered if Trump could be charged with treason. According to this definition, it certainly looks like a theoretical possibility.
Definition: In Article III, Section 3 of the United States Constitution, treason is specifically limited to levying war against the U.S., or adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.posted by Violet Blue at 1:42 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Penalty: Under U.S. Code Title 18, the penalty is death, or not less than five years' imprisonment (with a minimum fine of $10,000, if not sentenced to death). Any person convicted of treason against the United States also forfeits the right to hold public office in the United States.
The terms used in the definition derive from English legal tradition, specifically the Treason Act 1351. Levying war means the assembly of armed people to overthrow the government or to resist its laws. Enemies are subjects of a foreign government that is in open hostility with the United States. Treason does not distinguish between participants and accessories; all persons who rebel or intentionally give aid to hostilities are subject to the same charge.
Death sentences for treason under the Constitution have been carried out in only two instances: the executions of Taos Revolt insurgents in 1847, and that of William Bruce Mumford during the Civil War. A handful of other people convicted of the offense at the federal level – such as two militants from the Whiskey Rebellion (John Mitchell and Philip Weigel, who were both pardoned by President George Washington) and several people after World War II – have mostly been pardoned or released. The last federal treason conviction to be fully upheld was that of Nazi sympathizer Herbert John Burgman in 1949.
At this point its pretty obvious that Trump et al are playing chicken with mass civil unrest if not actual civil war. I'm doubtful they actually want civil war, wars are chancy things after all and in a place like the modern US there's no geographic divide, not like back in the 1860's. It'd be more like Rwanda with roving gangs on each side murdering suspected members of the other side.
We do have one really strange advantage here that we've never had before in any other major upset in US politics: something local to protest.
One major problem with protest in the US is that the nation is too big for most people who want to protest to find a way to get to DC and actually register their displeasure by joining a big protest. So protest movements tended to be brief, have not nearly as many people as actually oppose the thing, and can be easily ignored because they're a flash and then they sputter out. Not that this keeps them from sending the pigs in to assault protesters, but they're doing that because they like to, not because they need to.
Except now? Elon Musk is the public face of all this, to an extent even more than Trump himself, and Musk has a Tesla showroom within driving distance of a huge number of protest minded Americans.
Which means the protests can be bigger, widespread, show larger numbers, and be ongoing.
It's a unique advantage, and I hope the Tesla protests continue. I'm not endorsing the vandalism and property destruction, but the ongoing massive disruptive protests should keep on going. Likewise people giving Cybertruck owners the bird and otherwise harassing them should keep going. Not because any of that has an actual direct impact on any policy, but because it shows that the level of civil unrest is high, and growing, and they should veer off instead of going on.
In a game of chicken the first one to pull away loses, unless of course everyone loses because no one will give in and so there's a crash. Or civil war in our metaphoric game of chicken.
And in the meantime things will keep getting worse, and people will keep getting hurt or killed or sent off to be slave labor for the dictator of El Salvador.
The only good news is that we might, possibly, be able to protest Tesla enough that they decide they've hit the sticking point (this time) and to back off (for a little bit). And maybe we survive with a government that's vaguely functional until 2026 and 2028.
In that good timeline we face the monumental challenge of etching change into stone with hardcore enforcement that they cannot ignore before we lose the next election. And I'm not sure the Democrats are up to it. Maybe the forced exercise during these times will stiffen their spines.
We don't need me to belabor what happens in the bad timeline. I'd urge everyone to give serious thought to what you'll actually do, not internet bravado do, but ACTUALLY do in that bad timeline and prepare accordingly.
More generally, I've been thinking, and there's a real reason why this budget stuff is hitting everyone so viscerally. It's probably something most other people realized a long time ago, or always knew. But just in case I'm not the only one who hadn't put it together:
Money is how a government does things, so the budget is of critical importance. As a result our budget is a godawful kludge of a mess that no one likes. It has stuff the Republicans hate, it has stuff the Democrats hate, it has not nearly as much money for the stuff the Republicans like and not nearly as much for the stuff the Democrats like. It's a messy compromise that leaves everyone unhappy and dissatisfied.
But it was.... tolerable.
Only the most insignificant minority saw that budget and said that the government had abandoned them and the America they had agreed to be part of was no longer there and so the nation lurched onward with a balance of displeasure.
We had a deal, America could keep existing as long as the budget was tolerable.
But here's Trump with the one weird trick that liberals hate to undo that, to toss out the entire budget and rewrite the rules so they read: "I get everything, you get nothing".
That's why DOGE feels so viscerally threatening. It's because it is. That's how Trump and the Republicans are breaking the deal. It's how they're throwing out the ugly compromise of a budget that you really really hated but could tolerate, and what they're putting in place is going to be intolerable.
This budget crap isn't abstract, it's power. And this is the Republicans taking all the power.
posted by sotonohito at 1:48 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
We do have one really strange advantage here that we've never had before in any other major upset in US politics: something local to protest.
One major problem with protest in the US is that the nation is too big for most people who want to protest to find a way to get to DC and actually register their displeasure by joining a big protest. So protest movements tended to be brief, have not nearly as many people as actually oppose the thing, and can be easily ignored because they're a flash and then they sputter out. Not that this keeps them from sending the pigs in to assault protesters, but they're doing that because they like to, not because they need to.
Except now? Elon Musk is the public face of all this, to an extent even more than Trump himself, and Musk has a Tesla showroom within driving distance of a huge number of protest minded Americans.
Which means the protests can be bigger, widespread, show larger numbers, and be ongoing.
It's a unique advantage, and I hope the Tesla protests continue. I'm not endorsing the vandalism and property destruction, but the ongoing massive disruptive protests should keep on going. Likewise people giving Cybertruck owners the bird and otherwise harassing them should keep going. Not because any of that has an actual direct impact on any policy, but because it shows that the level of civil unrest is high, and growing, and they should veer off instead of going on.
In a game of chicken the first one to pull away loses, unless of course everyone loses because no one will give in and so there's a crash. Or civil war in our metaphoric game of chicken.
And in the meantime things will keep getting worse, and people will keep getting hurt or killed or sent off to be slave labor for the dictator of El Salvador.
The only good news is that we might, possibly, be able to protest Tesla enough that they decide they've hit the sticking point (this time) and to back off (for a little bit). And maybe we survive with a government that's vaguely functional until 2026 and 2028.
In that good timeline we face the monumental challenge of etching change into stone with hardcore enforcement that they cannot ignore before we lose the next election. And I'm not sure the Democrats are up to it. Maybe the forced exercise during these times will stiffen their spines.
We don't need me to belabor what happens in the bad timeline. I'd urge everyone to give serious thought to what you'll actually do, not internet bravado do, but ACTUALLY do in that bad timeline and prepare accordingly.
More generally, I've been thinking, and there's a real reason why this budget stuff is hitting everyone so viscerally. It's probably something most other people realized a long time ago, or always knew. But just in case I'm not the only one who hadn't put it together:
Money is how a government does things, so the budget is of critical importance. As a result our budget is a godawful kludge of a mess that no one likes. It has stuff the Republicans hate, it has stuff the Democrats hate, it has not nearly as much money for the stuff the Republicans like and not nearly as much for the stuff the Democrats like. It's a messy compromise that leaves everyone unhappy and dissatisfied.
But it was.... tolerable.
Only the most insignificant minority saw that budget and said that the government had abandoned them and the America they had agreed to be part of was no longer there and so the nation lurched onward with a balance of displeasure.
We had a deal, America could keep existing as long as the budget was tolerable.
But here's Trump with the one weird trick that liberals hate to undo that, to toss out the entire budget and rewrite the rules so they read: "I get everything, you get nothing".
That's why DOGE feels so viscerally threatening. It's because it is. That's how Trump and the Republicans are breaking the deal. It's how they're throwing out the ugly compromise of a budget that you really really hated but could tolerate, and what they're putting in place is going to be intolerable.
This budget crap isn't abstract, it's power. And this is the Republicans taking all the power.
posted by sotonohito at 1:48 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
And on the side to whom the law does not apply, Elon Musk is openly offering bribes to voters as he did earlier. And just like with his first time he won't face any penalties, or even an investigation, for this one.
posted by sotonohito at 2:15 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 2:15 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
We had a deal, America could keep existing as long ass the budget was tolerable.
Do we have a deal? Has the budget and spending been explained and understood so the deal was from a place of being informed?
The nation has 30+ trillion is debt that 10 trillion needs refinancing in 2025.
If rates are lowered by the fed with other changes then that should spike prices to citizens with no expansion of wages that match that inflation. Lo T both ran on outrage over rising prices.
If rates aren't lowered has there been a discussion over how THAT breaks things?
A destruction of the economy in this way lets other things get blamed VS having a hard set of conversations about actual spending and the debt we are stuck with. Inflation sucks but so does a depression collapsing prices/rates.
Destruction you can blame on others VS having to explain why/how the destruction isn't the fault of the well monied/elected officials.
And both Lo T and Prez E understand low interest rates.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:29 PM on March 21
Do we have a deal? Has the budget and spending been explained and understood so the deal was from a place of being informed?
The nation has 30+ trillion is debt that 10 trillion needs refinancing in 2025.
If rates are lowered by the fed with other changes then that should spike prices to citizens with no expansion of wages that match that inflation. Lo T both ran on outrage over rising prices.
If rates aren't lowered has there been a discussion over how THAT breaks things?
A destruction of the economy in this way lets other things get blamed VS having a hard set of conversations about actual spending and the debt we are stuck with. Inflation sucks but so does a depression collapsing prices/rates.
Destruction you can blame on others VS having to explain why/how the destruction isn't the fault of the well monied/elected officials.
And both Lo T and Prez E understand low interest rates.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:29 PM on March 21
Destruction you can blame on others
TFG is already well down the path of seeking to blame as much destruction as he needs to on the "radical lunatic left judges" that keep getting in his way. I've been keeping an eye on as much right-wing media as I can bear to, and I already have the distinct impression that his cult is primed and ready to eat that shit up by the bucketload.
The only thing I've actually been enjoying about the way things are presently shaping is watching Musk look increasingly nervous. I'm starting to sense that distinct whiff of Wile E Coyote on the point of suspecting that what's underneath his feet might now be air.
Given the fury currently being expressed at such town-hall meetings as Republicans remain willing to risk running, I can't see the rolling-coal brotherhood taking too long to revert to its traditional position on electric cars. I think it's beginning to dawn on Musk that hitching his wagon to a stable genius notorious for throwing associates under the bus might not have been one of his better ideas.
I am sure that he, like me, clearly remembers Camacho's promise to kick Not Sure's smart balls all the way up to the roof of his smart mouth and then throw his brainy ass back in jail if he didn't fix everything in one week. Which puts him, as the actual owner of the Brawndo Corporation, in a difficult position.
posted by flabdablet at 8:27 PM on March 21
TFG is already well down the path of seeking to blame as much destruction as he needs to on the "radical lunatic left judges" that keep getting in his way. I've been keeping an eye on as much right-wing media as I can bear to, and I already have the distinct impression that his cult is primed and ready to eat that shit up by the bucketload.
The only thing I've actually been enjoying about the way things are presently shaping is watching Musk look increasingly nervous. I'm starting to sense that distinct whiff of Wile E Coyote on the point of suspecting that what's underneath his feet might now be air.
Given the fury currently being expressed at such town-hall meetings as Republicans remain willing to risk running, I can't see the rolling-coal brotherhood taking too long to revert to its traditional position on electric cars. I think it's beginning to dawn on Musk that hitching his wagon to a stable genius notorious for throwing associates under the bus might not have been one of his better ideas.
I am sure that he, like me, clearly remembers Camacho's promise to kick Not Sure's smart balls all the way up to the roof of his smart mouth and then throw his brainy ass back in jail if he didn't fix everything in one week. Which puts him, as the actual owner of the Brawndo Corporation, in a difficult position.
posted by flabdablet at 8:27 PM on March 21
The only thing I've actually been enjoying about the way things are presently shaping is watching Musk look increasingly nervous.
As well he should be.
The fellow members of the judiciary may not be able to extract a pound of flesh from Trump but they sure can from Elon.
To date the judiciary has been ignored by the public. Trial galleries are empty of members of the public. Lawyers who file BS paperwork like 'we've got no evidence and that shows how good a criminal he is' don't get bar grieved and then disbarred. There is no evidence people are then filing grievances VS the rest of the firm that makes such BS arguments under 'failure to supervise'.
In an ideal world the judiciary would have people acting as court watchers with a willingness to file early and often grievances/conduct complaints. We'll see if the Elon protesters show up in the pending court cases and what the reaction is gonna be.
The citizens have the levers of filing grievances/complaints when it comes to the judicial process and should be using them.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:01 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
As well he should be.
The fellow members of the judiciary may not be able to extract a pound of flesh from Trump but they sure can from Elon.
To date the judiciary has been ignored by the public. Trial galleries are empty of members of the public. Lawyers who file BS paperwork like 'we've got no evidence and that shows how good a criminal he is' don't get bar grieved and then disbarred. There is no evidence people are then filing grievances VS the rest of the firm that makes such BS arguments under 'failure to supervise'.
In an ideal world the judiciary would have people acting as court watchers with a willingness to file early and often grievances/conduct complaints. We'll see if the Elon protesters show up in the pending court cases and what the reaction is gonna be.
The citizens have the levers of filing grievances/complaints when it comes to the judicial process and should be using them.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:01 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
To date the judiciary has been ignored by the public. Trial galleries are empty of members of the public. Lawyers who file BS paperwork like 'we've got no evidence and that shows how good a criminal he is' don't get bar grieved and then disbarred. There is no evidence people are then filing grievances VS the rest of the firm that makes such BS arguments under 'failure to supervise'.
In an ideal world the judiciary would have people acting as court watchers with a willingness to file early and often grievances/conduct complaints. We'll see if the Elon protesters show up in the pending court cases and what the reaction is gonna be.
The citizens have the levers of filing grievances/complaints when it comes to the judicial process and should be using them.
Speaking as a person who thought he had at least a basic understanding of the government, civics, and the legal system: this is a thing that a person can do without being a lawyer and/or involved in a case? How?
posted by Reverend John at 6:13 AM on March 22
In an ideal world the judiciary would have people acting as court watchers with a willingness to file early and often grievances/conduct complaints. We'll see if the Elon protesters show up in the pending court cases and what the reaction is gonna be.
The citizens have the levers of filing grievances/complaints when it comes to the judicial process and should be using them.
Speaking as a person who thought he had at least a basic understanding of the government, civics, and the legal system: this is a thing that a person can do without being a lawyer and/or involved in a case? How?
posted by Reverend John at 6:13 AM on March 22
his is a thing that a person can do without being a lawyer and/or involved in a case? How?
You can file a bar grievance for whatever reason you want. Hair is parted wrong. BUT one should make 'em actually be valid.
Each State has its own rules but they generally follow the ABA sample. By searching on your search engine of choice one can find the reporting forms for judicial misconduct and filing a bar grievance.
For the 'we have no evidence but that just shows how criminal they are by successfully hiding the evidence' the violations for the person presenting that would be a violation of how a lawyer is to only put forth arguments that are supported by law or statute UNLESS the lawyer is arguing for a change in law. In a law firm the senior partners are to supervise the juniors so one can file a complaint for all senior people that they failed to supervise the lawyer who made the argument. Nothing says love in the workplace like you getting a complaint about what the law dog did over there and you have nothing to do with it at all.
Understand a valid complaint by a citizen will eventually get a letter saying 'we found no violation'. The insurance firms know this and that's why they treat the filing of one as having a level of validity. 1st year in practice and you get a grievance and you are uninsurable. A firm gets 3 in a year - same effect. To help the insurance firms evaluate the risk make sure to blind copy all of them licensed in the state as how can you know which one is covering them.
Each bar complaint needs the lawyer to respond. That can be as low as 10 hours of their now non billable time and can get well over 120 hours which is why the complaint should be based on the rules violation VS hair parting or 'they are defending a nazi', A past bar card holder made a video about the complaints he got and cited only because it is rare for lawyers to talk about it or show them. Complaints like those he cited won't go as far as conduct in cases and the kinds of conduct that will get a lawyer nailed hard is trust fund management. I know personally of law firms that dissolved over complaints and lawyers who keep their bar card but don't practice due to lack of being insurable.
Judges are a bit different. The conduct complaint just makes it harder for them to get promoted and something for an opponent to run against. For promotional purposes people with no complaints are more likely to get the promotion. The only outside force is the bond company backing the county so sending a complaint copy there might have an effect.
A final 'as a citizen' note: Go read your States Code of Criminal Procedure. Most States have a way for a citizen to bypass the cops for filing a criminal complaint. California and New York used to have online manuals for the Grand Juries informing the members about how citizens can make presentments and admonished the Grand Jury members to treat them the same as one from the DA. Other States allow the criminal complaint to be placed in font of a Judge or DA. Nothing is stopping citizens from making criminal charges VS the companies of Lo T and Prez E AND the elected officials would have plausible deniability with "a citizen went to the Grand Jury and the citizens of the Grand Jury said there was a crime here so I'm just doing my job as DA prosecuting this case." After WWII the Federal Grand Juries got a French inspired reform from punishment to rehabilitation. In that reform the ability of citizens to go to a Federal Grand Jury was removed by policy. What else happened back then was black soldiers on liberty boats heard about the laws which protected them as noted in one now dead black Congressman's book about his life as that is how he became interested him eventually ending up in Congress. While there is not produced for the public documentation showing the reform of direct citizen presentment was done explicitly, in part, to prevent blacks from going to Federal Grand Juries given Jim Crow there is a high probability the reform was done to prevent such. I know my State law has changed after I've used the statutes/rules noted above.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:55 AM on March 22
You can file a bar grievance for whatever reason you want. Hair is parted wrong. BUT one should make 'em actually be valid.
Each State has its own rules but they generally follow the ABA sample. By searching on your search engine of choice one can find the reporting forms for judicial misconduct and filing a bar grievance.
For the 'we have no evidence but that just shows how criminal they are by successfully hiding the evidence' the violations for the person presenting that would be a violation of how a lawyer is to only put forth arguments that are supported by law or statute UNLESS the lawyer is arguing for a change in law. In a law firm the senior partners are to supervise the juniors so one can file a complaint for all senior people that they failed to supervise the lawyer who made the argument. Nothing says love in the workplace like you getting a complaint about what the law dog did over there and you have nothing to do with it at all.
Understand a valid complaint by a citizen will eventually get a letter saying 'we found no violation'. The insurance firms know this and that's why they treat the filing of one as having a level of validity. 1st year in practice and you get a grievance and you are uninsurable. A firm gets 3 in a year - same effect. To help the insurance firms evaluate the risk make sure to blind copy all of them licensed in the state as how can you know which one is covering them.
Each bar complaint needs the lawyer to respond. That can be as low as 10 hours of their now non billable time and can get well over 120 hours which is why the complaint should be based on the rules violation VS hair parting or 'they are defending a nazi', A past bar card holder made a video about the complaints he got and cited only because it is rare for lawyers to talk about it or show them. Complaints like those he cited won't go as far as conduct in cases and the kinds of conduct that will get a lawyer nailed hard is trust fund management. I know personally of law firms that dissolved over complaints and lawyers who keep their bar card but don't practice due to lack of being insurable.
Judges are a bit different. The conduct complaint just makes it harder for them to get promoted and something for an opponent to run against. For promotional purposes people with no complaints are more likely to get the promotion. The only outside force is the bond company backing the county so sending a complaint copy there might have an effect.
A final 'as a citizen' note: Go read your States Code of Criminal Procedure. Most States have a way for a citizen to bypass the cops for filing a criminal complaint. California and New York used to have online manuals for the Grand Juries informing the members about how citizens can make presentments and admonished the Grand Jury members to treat them the same as one from the DA. Other States allow the criminal complaint to be placed in font of a Judge or DA. Nothing is stopping citizens from making criminal charges VS the companies of Lo T and Prez E AND the elected officials would have plausible deniability with "a citizen went to the Grand Jury and the citizens of the Grand Jury said there was a crime here so I'm just doing my job as DA prosecuting this case." After WWII the Federal Grand Juries got a French inspired reform from punishment to rehabilitation. In that reform the ability of citizens to go to a Federal Grand Jury was removed by policy. What else happened back then was black soldiers on liberty boats heard about the laws which protected them as noted in one now dead black Congressman's book about his life as that is how he became interested him eventually ending up in Congress. While there is not produced for the public documentation showing the reform of direct citizen presentment was done explicitly, in part, to prevent blacks from going to Federal Grand Juries given Jim Crow there is a high probability the reform was done to prevent such. I know my State law has changed after I've used the statutes/rules noted above.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:55 AM on March 22
On the topic of law, and Trump's contempt for it, I think we should note that Trump continues to run the White House like a combo revenge factory and Mafia protection racket.
He just shook down Paul Weiss for $40 million on the grounds that Paul Weiss once employed one of lawyers prosecuting him criminally. And I think that sort of encapsulates the whole thing: by going after a law firm that no longer even employs the man he's mad at, what it tells everyone is don't do anything against Trump or else you may become unemployable.
Oh, and of course Paul Weiss had to do the humiliation ritual of swearing that they will never do DEI ever again because it's bad and wicked.
But $40 million, not as a fine for any wrongdoing but just as a bit of protection money paid to Don Trump since he has the power of the White House and will definitely use it to hurt you if you don't pay up.
posted by sotonohito at 12:12 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
He just shook down Paul Weiss for $40 million on the grounds that Paul Weiss once employed one of lawyers prosecuting him criminally. And I think that sort of encapsulates the whole thing: by going after a law firm that no longer even employs the man he's mad at, what it tells everyone is don't do anything against Trump or else you may become unemployable.
Oh, and of course Paul Weiss had to do the humiliation ritual of swearing that they will never do DEI ever again because it's bad and wicked.
But $40 million, not as a fine for any wrongdoing but just as a bit of protection money paid to Don Trump since he has the power of the White House and will definitely use it to hurt you if you don't pay up.
posted by sotonohito at 12:12 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
« Older Thousands of breeding flying foxes stopping planes... | Your taste in music sucks Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by senor biggles at 8:58 AM on March 20 [17 favorites]