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March 24, 2025 10:39 AM Subscribe
The world found out shortly before 2 p.m. eastern time on March 15 that the United States was bombing Houthi targets across Yemen. I, however, knew two hours before the first bombs exploded that the attack might be coming. The reason I knew this is that Pete Hegseth, the secretary of defense, had texted me the war plan at 11:44 a.m. The plan included precise information about weapons packages, targets, and timing. This is going to require some explaining.The Trump Administration Accidentally Texted Me Its War Plans: U.S. national-security leaders included me in a group chat about upcoming military strikes in Yemen. I didn’t think it could be real. Then the bombs started falling. [Jeffrey Goldberg, The Atlantic]
What what what?!?! I can't keep up with the insanity these days
posted by bitteschoen at 10:42 AM on March 24 [10 favorites]
posted by bitteschoen at 10:42 AM on March 24 [10 favorites]
Was Hegseth drunk texting? Also, WTF!?
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 10:44 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 10:44 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
Just a little taste of what it’s like to be Vladimir Putin (or whoever he has monitoring the chat for him.)
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:50 AM on March 24 [19 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:50 AM on March 24 [19 favorites]
Clown country texts.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:51 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:51 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Following past practice, I expect there will be a full investigation into this fiasco, perhaps including the establishment of a special select committee.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:55 AM on March 24 [19 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:55 AM on March 24 [19 favorites]
The clarity and professionalism of Goldberg’s write-up is refreshing. RTFA. The official confirmation at the end of all the assumptions is all the more damning. It’s obvious laws were broken and crimes admitted to.
posted by radagast at 10:56 AM on March 24 [44 favorites]
posted by radagast at 10:56 AM on March 24 [44 favorites]
if the same rules/logic that gets used against Democrats ever applied to Republicans, this would be a verrrrrry different country
but
IOIYAR
posted by kokaku at 10:56 AM on March 24 [10 favorites]
but
IOIYAR
posted by kokaku at 10:56 AM on March 24 [10 favorites]
That's just absolutely staggering.
I mean, obviously they're doing it to keep it out of public records, which naturally leads one to assume that all the other groups where they didn't accidentally add the editor of the Atlantic are full of god knows what. Probably open bigotry and slurs and corruption, of course.
Also it's very dumb of course, but one is used to that by this point.
posted by Frowner at 11:00 AM on March 24 [24 favorites]
I mean, obviously they're doing it to keep it out of public records, which naturally leads one to assume that all the other groups where they didn't accidentally add the editor of the Atlantic are full of god knows what. Probably open bigotry and slurs and corruption, of course.
Also it's very dumb of course, but one is used to that by this point.
posted by Frowner at 11:00 AM on March 24 [24 favorites]
They should use only contemporary teenage slang and GIFs if they want to be truly inscrutable.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:02 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:02 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
A good lesson in the inevitable consequences of not providing your employees with modern IT tools.
posted by Klipspringer at 11:05 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
posted by Klipspringer at 11:05 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
Beyond satire.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:05 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:05 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
This is horrible. Key context:
posted by Nelson at 11:06 AM on March 24 [32 favorites]
a U.S. official should not establish a Signal thread in the first place. Information about an active operation would presumably fit the law’s definition of “national defense” information. The Signal app is not approved by the government for sharing classified information.My understanding is military folks routinely use Signal and probably in contexts where they shouldn't. It's one thing if it's a quartermaster griping to his buddy how hard it is to get supplies to their carrier. It's a bit different when it's the Vice President and the Secretary of Defense stroking each others' dicks about bombing Yemen.
posted by Nelson at 11:06 AM on March 24 [32 favorites]
article ends with:
"Hegseth wrote to the group—which, at the time, included me [ an investigative journalist ]—“We are currently clean on OPSEC.”
opsec == operational security. he's saying that there are no leaks. to an investigative journalist. directly.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:09 AM on March 24 [96 favorites]
"Hegseth wrote to the group—which, at the time, included me [ an investigative journalist ]—“We are currently clean on OPSEC.”
opsec == operational security. he's saying that there are no leaks. to an investigative journalist. directly.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:09 AM on March 24 [96 favorites]
"Only we can do this". This seemingly being the reckless killing of civilians to target supposed terror targets, a strategy so effective it lead to us evacuating personnel from the rooftops of Kabul by helo.
Which, no, anyone can do that. And further, why the fuck would Europe want to?
posted by Slackermagee at 11:13 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
Which, no, anyone can do that. And further, why the fuck would Europe want to?
posted by Slackermagee at 11:13 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
I’m so curious who they thought Jeffrey Goldberg was, assuming they were adding him from a phone’s contacts list, rather than if theybadded he number manually and goldberg’s happened to be one digit off from someone in the administration.
And if that’s the case, what a lucky typo! And how many random dipshits have been added to government text threads in this manner?
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:14 AM on March 24 [15 favorites]
And if that’s the case, what a lucky typo! And how many random dipshits have been added to government text threads in this manner?
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:14 AM on March 24 [15 favorites]
These guys have worse opsec than a moderately successful EVE Online squad.
But really, these guys are running government like they think they're playing a videogame. Given that, why not YOLO invading Greenland? These people do genuinely seem to believe that other people are literally NPCs. I'd call it sociopathy if it wasn't nigh on solipsism.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:14 AM on March 24 [45 favorites]
But really, these guys are running government like they think they're playing a videogame. Given that, why not YOLO invading Greenland? These people do genuinely seem to believe that other people are literally NPCs. I'd call it sociopathy if it wasn't nigh on solipsism.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:14 AM on March 24 [45 favorites]
as a former investigative journo, I am soooooo jealous. :)
my only gripe is that I wish the main headline was "Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth texted me the Trump team's war plans," because it was literally Hegseth, because it's always more effective to attach news to a person than to a team or an amorphous group, because that dude should get called out by name every time, and because it would publicly position him as a traitor to Trump.
Put Hegseth in the headline, make popcorn, sit back and enjoy.
posted by martin q blank at 11:16 AM on March 24 [50 favorites]
my only gripe is that I wish the main headline was "Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth texted me the Trump team's war plans," because it was literally Hegseth, because it's always more effective to attach news to a person than to a team or an amorphous group, because that dude should get called out by name every time, and because it would publicly position him as a traitor to Trump.
Put Hegseth in the headline, make popcorn, sit back and enjoy.
posted by martin q blank at 11:16 AM on March 24 [50 favorites]
They probably mistook Jeff Goldberg for Jeff Goldblum and figured they were emailing the character with the chaos theory in the Jurassic Park movies.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:20 AM on March 24 [19 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:20 AM on March 24 [19 favorites]
I'm starting to think that these guys don't know what they're doing.
(Was: Surely, this.)
posted by Melismata at 11:21 AM on March 24 [17 favorites]
(Was: Surely, this.)
posted by Melismata at 11:21 AM on March 24 [17 favorites]
So, hurray that it’s a piece on the landing page for the widely read Atlantic. Anybody want to place bets that it’ll be a mere blip on regular news sources?
posted by ashbury at 11:21 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
posted by ashbury at 11:21 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Unknown number on yer phone....Scam Likely or Secretary of the Defense of the USA???
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:25 AM on March 24 [16 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:25 AM on March 24 [16 favorites]
Anybody want to place bets that it’ll be a mere blip on regular news sources?
regular news sources have only failed us for the past decade or so, maybe always. Get the word out. Work our networks. Don't forget to breathe.
posted by philip-random at 11:27 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
regular news sources have only failed us for the past decade or so, maybe always. Get the word out. Work our networks. Don't forget to breathe.
posted by philip-random at 11:27 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Oopsie.
posted by adamrice at 11:28 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 11:28 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Mais ses courriels au beurre!
But more seriously, I have a colleague with a very similar name as me and we've been getting each other's stuff continuously for more than 20 years through outlook autocomplete and Americans not distinguishing easily between similar French Canadian names. I 100% believe some other guy with a similar name was meant to be in that thread.
Should reporters find name doppelgangers to important adjacent people in the administration and try to get them in their address books?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:29 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
But more seriously, I have a colleague with a very similar name as me and we've been getting each other's stuff continuously for more than 20 years through outlook autocomplete and Americans not distinguishing easily between similar French Canadian names. I 100% believe some other guy with a similar name was meant to be in that thread.
Should reporters find name doppelgangers to important adjacent people in the administration and try to get them in their address books?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:29 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
I am not publishing that name, because that person is an active intelligence officer.Coward
posted by jy4m at 11:39 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
But her emails...
posted by essexjan at 11:39 AM on March 24 [10 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 11:39 AM on March 24 [10 favorites]
Trump's just claimed (live TV interview) to know nothing about it and said that the Atlantic is a magazine that's going out of business.
posted by essexjan at 11:43 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 11:43 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Coward
No - professional and smart by Goldberg. It takes nothing away from the staggering incompetence and illegality; and cuts off the obvious White House PR counter derail.
posted by radagast at 11:48 AM on March 24 [55 favorites]
No - professional and smart by Goldberg. It takes nothing away from the staggering incompetence and illegality; and cuts off the obvious White House PR counter derail.
posted by radagast at 11:48 AM on March 24 [55 favorites]
Trump's just claimed (live TV interview) to know nothing about it
He's probably not lying about that.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:48 AM on March 24 [32 favorites]
Jeffrey Goldberg arrested for espionage in 3...2...1...
('cause that's how this administration's "logic" rolls)
posted by Thorzdad at 11:49 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
('cause that's how this administration's "logic" rolls)
posted by Thorzdad at 11:49 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
A clown emoji projected on the moon would not capture the incompetence depicted here
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 11:51 AM on March 24 [18 favorites]
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 11:51 AM on March 24 [18 favorites]
Absolutely fucking insane.
The one thing I can say for this golden age we are living through is the concept of Very Serious Men who have Authority We Must Respect that we all grew up with has finally been punctured, stomped on, and set aflame.
posted by latkes at 12:03 PM on March 24 [41 favorites]
The one thing I can say for this golden age we are living through is the concept of Very Serious Men who have Authority We Must Respect that we all grew up with has finally been punctured, stomped on, and set aflame.
posted by latkes at 12:03 PM on March 24 [41 favorites]
A good lesson in the inevitable consequences of not providing your employees with modern IT tools.
There's no system foolproof enough to defeat a sufficiently great fool.
posted by BReed at 12:07 PM on March 24 [16 favorites]
There's no system foolproof enough to defeat a sufficiently great fool.
posted by BReed at 12:07 PM on March 24 [16 favorites]
I read this article earlier to day after following a link on Bluesky. Truly mindbogglingly incompetent and dangerous and simultaneously hilarious in the levels of ineptitude that it shows.
Of course nothing will be done, but a few days of Hegseth being a laughingstock is an okay prize I guess in a time of few prizes.
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:08 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
Of course nothing will be done, but a few days of Hegseth being a laughingstock is an okay prize I guess in a time of few prizes.
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:08 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
This was a plot point in A Bridge Too Far. The Nazis stumbled onto a full set of the Allies' top secret battle plans, but thought it must be a trap, that no-one could be so stupid as to leave battle plans just lying around.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:10 PM on March 24 [17 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:10 PM on March 24 [17 favorites]
But her emails...
Has to merit a Surely This as well. It's a twofer!
A good lesson in the inevitable consequences of not providing your employees with modern IT tools.
Exactly so. The existing SCIFs are clearly not a good fit for group chat and desperately need an upgrade.
posted by flabdablet at 12:11 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
Has to merit a Surely This as well. It's a twofer!
A good lesson in the inevitable consequences of not providing your employees with modern IT tools.
Exactly so. The existing SCIFs are clearly not a good fit for group chat and desperately need an upgrade.
posted by flabdablet at 12:11 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
At this point, the previously silent “S M” joined the conversation. “As I heard it, the president was clear: green light, but we soon make clear to Egypt and Europe what we expect in return. We also need to figure out how to enforce such a requirement. EG, if Europe doesn’t remunerate, then what? If the US successfully restores freedom of navigation at great cost there needs to be some further economic gain extracted in return.”
Mafia behaviour. "But what have you done for me LATELY?"
posted by subdee at 12:13 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Mafia behaviour. "But what have you done for me LATELY?"
posted by subdee at 12:13 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
There is always a trade off between security and ease-of-use. For example, the use of a physically secure SCIF room to share critical national intelligence, where your possibly-rooted-by-China/Russia personal phone is not allowed.
Or you could just text war plans from your iphone while on the toilet to whatever random contacts you like, cos you're lazy, and nobody cares when you're R, and after all, the Russians just get it direct from Gabbard and the mango moron first anyway. Weeeee.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:17 PM on March 24 [21 favorites]
Or you could just text war plans from your iphone while on the toilet to whatever random contacts you like, cos you're lazy, and nobody cares when you're R, and after all, the Russians just get it direct from Gabbard and the mango moron first anyway. Weeeee.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:17 PM on March 24 [21 favorites]
And how many random dipshits have been added to government text threads in this manner?
From first-hand personal experience, happens all the time. That is why text and email is not for classified information. (Email can be, but only on separated systems where you have to have a clearance to get an account)
posted by ctmf at 12:18 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
From first-hand personal experience, happens all the time. That is why text and email is not for classified information. (Email can be, but only on separated systems where you have to have a clearance to get an account)
posted by ctmf at 12:18 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Was Hegseth drunk texting?
Look, he has a hard job, needs a way to relax, and has the right to get a little tipsy. You can't expect him to be sober at [checks notes] 11:44am.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 12:21 PM on March 24 [39 favorites]
Look, he has a hard job, needs a way to relax, and has the right to get a little tipsy. You can't expect him to be sober at [checks notes] 11:44am.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 12:21 PM on March 24 [39 favorites]
Well SOMEONE is going to have to re-do their mandatory annual Cyber-Awareness Training.
posted by ctmf at 12:22 PM on March 24 [45 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 12:22 PM on March 24 [45 favorites]
Well SOMEONE is going to have to re-do their mandatory annual Cyber-Awareness Training.
LOL what makes you think they bothered to take that training to begin with? Rules are for OTHER people!
posted by Pedantzilla at 12:25 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
LOL what makes you think they bothered to take that training to begin with? Rules are for OTHER people!
posted by Pedantzilla at 12:25 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Deus Vuln
posted by flabdablet at 12:25 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:25 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
I’m so curious who they thought Jeffrey Goldberg was, assuming they were adding him from a phone’s contacts list, rather than if they added he number manually and goldberg’s happened to be one digit off from someone in the administration.
My guess is that Mike Waltz thought he was someone else within the inner circle. Do we know of anyone who maybe should have been involved in that convo who has the initials JG?
posted by dlugoczaj at 12:25 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
My guess is that Mike Waltz thought he was someone else within the inner circle. Do we know of anyone who maybe should have been involved in that convo who has the initials JG?
posted by dlugoczaj at 12:25 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
A good lesson in the inevitable consequences of not providing your employees with modern IT tools.
No, the article notes there certainly are existing secure methods of communication they could have used, they just didn't.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:26 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
No, the article notes there certainly are existing secure methods of communication they could have used, they just didn't.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:26 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Here's a thread of involved parties talking about the need for secure communications (when Dems are involved):
posted by 1970s Antihero at 12:27 PM on March 24 [9 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 12:27 PM on March 24 [9 favorites]
The MAGA cope I'm seeing is that this was all brilliant 15d chess to either expose a leaker or trick the Atlantic into publishing Trump's message on Europe and his use of military force. This is obviously bullshit, but even if we accept it as true, then the "genius move" was to use classified live war plans as bait?
Unfortunately, as the Republicans control Congress nothing will come of this, and Trump will only punish those involved if he feels it personally makes him look bad. While never admitting there ever was any mistake, of course.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:29 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately, as the Republicans control Congress nothing will come of this, and Trump will only punish those involved if he feels it personally makes him look bad. While never admitting there ever was any mistake, of course.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:29 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Also, please God, it is 2025. It is satisfying and funny to harp on Republican hypocrisy but that ceased mattering so long ago it's almost self-harm to keep pointing it out. Not only does it not do anything, they just laugh harder at the libs being mad.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:30 PM on March 24 [15 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:30 PM on March 24 [15 favorites]
So what happens if the leaker exposed is the sec of defense… *crickets*?
posted by Selena777 at 12:31 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 12:31 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
a U.S. official should not establish a Signal thread in the first place. Information about an active operation would presumably fit the law’s definition of “national defense” information. The Signal app is not approved by the government for sharing classified information.
There’s a very interesting story here about the triumph of Signal as a branding success. Whatsapp is out there, Wickr... exists, and was acquired by Amazon, but Signal seems to be the secure (“secure”) app we have come to trust by default.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:40 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
There’s a very interesting story here about the triumph of Signal as a branding success. Whatsapp is out there, Wickr... exists, and was acquired by Amazon, but Signal seems to be the secure (“secure”) app we have come to trust by default.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:40 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
What I don't understand is...they are talking about making demands of Europe after "solving" this "problem." But did the Europeans actually ask them to do it? Or is this like when someone random shovels your driveway, destroying all of your ornamental plantings in the process, and then demands you pay them $200?
posted by rednikki at 12:44 PM on March 24 [21 favorites]
posted by rednikki at 12:44 PM on March 24 [21 favorites]
I’m so curious who they thought Jeffrey Goldberg was
I'm curious about how many of them are leaking to Goldberg all the time about all kinds of stuff, enough so that they didn't even notice his name/number was on there, they're used to seeing it all the time.
(This doesn't seem to have occurred to any of these clowns . . . yet.)
posted by soundguy99 at 12:46 PM on March 24 [10 favorites]
I'm curious about how many of them are leaking to Goldberg all the time about all kinds of stuff, enough so that they didn't even notice his name/number was on there, they're used to seeing it all the time.
(This doesn't seem to have occurred to any of these clowns . . . yet.)
posted by soundguy99 at 12:46 PM on March 24 [10 favorites]
I'm only partway through, but all these bits:
(Because if they did ask - which the conversation sure seems to show to not be the case - then the time you extract concessions is before you agree to act...)
on preview, jinx, rednikki
posted by trig at 12:46 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
"Per the president’s request we are working with DOD and State to determine how to compile the cost associated and levy them on the Europeans.".... what the hell? Are you going to do something nobody's asked for and then force them to compensate you for this mighty sacrifice they didn't ask you to perform?
"if you think we should do it let’s go. I just hate bailing Europe out again."
"VP: I fully share your loathing of European free-loading. It’s PATHETIC."
"green light, but we soon make clear to Egypt and Europe what we expect in return. We also need to figure out how to enforce such a requirement. EG, if Europe doesn’t remunerate, then what? If the US successfully restores freedom of navigation at great cost there needs to be some further economic gain extracted in return."
(Because if they did ask - which the conversation sure seems to show to not be the case - then the time you extract concessions is before you agree to act...)
on preview, jinx, rednikki
posted by trig at 12:46 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
USA is the windshield squeegee nation of the world. Squeegee without asking with a bucket of filthy water and demand payment afterwards.
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:47 PM on March 24 [35 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:47 PM on March 24 [35 favorites]
Man, of all the fucking journalists for the admin to fuck up and add to this chat, i wish it had been basically anyone other than the former IDF concentration camp guard who loves bombing Arabs.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:49 PM on March 24 [21 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:49 PM on March 24 [21 favorites]
FYI It's now a banner "breaking news" item atop the WaPo website, linking to this story. (gift link)
Includes this quote from Sen. Jack Reed, a notorious hardass on military stuff and with as close to unassailable military cred as anyone on the Hill:
It's pretty much standard practice in newsrooms, on a story this big, to verify it yourself and have some sort of new angle before running with it. Hence the delays, but this is going to have legs.
posted by martin q blank at 12:50 PM on March 24 [19 favorites]
Includes this quote from Sen. Jack Reed, a notorious hardass on military stuff and with as close to unassailable military cred as anyone on the Hill:
“If true, this story represents one of the most egregious failures of operational security and common sense I have ever seen. Military operations need to be handled with utmost discretion, using approved, secure lines of communication, because American lives are on the line. The carelessness shown by President Trump’s cabinet is stunning and dangerous. I will be seeking answers from the Administration immediately.”Also moved on the AP wire.
It's pretty much standard practice in newsrooms, on a story this big, to verify it yourself and have some sort of new angle before running with it. Hence the delays, but this is going to have legs.
posted by martin q blank at 12:50 PM on March 24 [19 favorites]
That said, it's interesting that they seem to actually buy their own narrative about how everybody's freeloading off the US, instead of it being a purely cynical PR take.
posted by trig at 12:50 PM on March 24 [11 favorites]
posted by trig at 12:50 PM on March 24 [11 favorites]
...or they're just parroting the boss' gripes because they know where their bread is buttered.
Trump himself has never been unclear about what he wants. The fact that it comes off as cynical gamesmanship is because of all the political and media sanewashing.
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:53 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Trump himself has never been unclear about what he wants. The fact that it comes off as cynical gamesmanship is because of all the political and media sanewashing.
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:53 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
If Jeff Goldberg was a reporter with any skin in the game at all, he would have shut up and just kept reading texts for a long, long time. Particularly in a moment when it looks possible (more and more likely?) that the administration is trying to provoke a situation where they could declare martial law.
posted by newdaddy at 12:56 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
posted by newdaddy at 12:56 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
the triumph of Signal as a branding success.
Also a technical success. Signal is about as close to a verifiably secure usable app that we've ever had. Signal very securely delivered the secret war plans to the journalist just as it was asked to do.
One of my thoughts on reading this article was " well at least it wasn't Telegram"
posted by Nelson at 12:58 PM on March 24 [17 favorites]
Also a technical success. Signal is about as close to a verifiably secure usable app that we've ever had. Signal very securely delivered the secret war plans to the journalist just as it was asked to do.
One of my thoughts on reading this article was " well at least it wasn't Telegram"
posted by Nelson at 12:58 PM on March 24 [17 favorites]
> trig: ".... what the hell? Are you going to do something nobody's asked for and then force them to compensate you for this mighty sacrifice they didn't ask you to perform?"
I think what we're seeing from these internal discussions is that conservatives like this really do believe the things they say. It's not an act they put on for the rubes, they're not hiding some deep intellectual sophistication, they're not rabbling-rousing in service of some other, hidden goal. They genuinely believe in their world view. In this particular instance, we see these conservatives revealing their insane understanding of geopolitical negotiation. In some ways, it's of a piece with the earlier conservative stance towards negotiating with Iran regarding its nuke program (i.e.: Iran must first give up its nuke program before negotiations can even begin).
posted by mhum at 12:58 PM on March 24 [26 favorites]
I think what we're seeing from these internal discussions is that conservatives like this really do believe the things they say. It's not an act they put on for the rubes, they're not hiding some deep intellectual sophistication, they're not rabbling-rousing in service of some other, hidden goal. They genuinely believe in their world view. In this particular instance, we see these conservatives revealing their insane understanding of geopolitical negotiation. In some ways, it's of a piece with the earlier conservative stance towards negotiating with Iran regarding its nuke program (i.e.: Iran must first give up its nuke program before negotiations can even begin).
posted by mhum at 12:58 PM on March 24 [26 favorites]
If Jeff Goldberg was a reporter with any skin in the game at all, he would have shut up and just kept reading texts for a long, long time
No thanks. We're in this mess because lots of reporters sat on stories so they could release books years down the road. I'm glad this is coming out now.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:01 PM on March 24 [83 favorites]
No thanks. We're in this mess because lots of reporters sat on stories so they could release books years down the road. I'm glad this is coming out now.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:01 PM on March 24 [83 favorites]
Not even a peep about this on Fox News Website I can see. Lead story on CNN.
I can imagine this being wall to wall coverage for days on Fox News it had been under a democratic administration. Yet a solid chunk of the country will never hear anything about it. Everything is just so broken. I know we all know that. But this story somehow makes that even clearer.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:03 PM on March 24 [14 favorites]
I can imagine this being wall to wall coverage for days on Fox News it had been under a democratic administration. Yet a solid chunk of the country will never hear anything about it. Everything is just so broken. I know we all know that. But this story somehow makes that even clearer.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:03 PM on March 24 [14 favorites]
he would have shut up and just kept reading texts for a long, long time
I'm gonna have to go with a "no thanks" here too for national security reasons. Who else is on that signal group that really REALLY shouldn't have been? As much as I'd love the tell-all, I think I'd rather they get this figured out now.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 1:04 PM on March 24 [11 favorites]
I'm gonna have to go with a "no thanks" here too for national security reasons. Who else is on that signal group that really REALLY shouldn't have been? As much as I'd love the tell-all, I think I'd rather they get this figured out now.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 1:04 PM on March 24 [11 favorites]
There could also be legal concerns involved. He must have consulted with lawyers before publishing this. At first he believed this was fake, but after the bombings convinced him it was real, are there consequences for knowingly listening in on classified communications?
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:13 PM on March 24 [12 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:13 PM on March 24 [12 favorites]
I assume Goldberg does not want to risk being prosecuted for serious crimes and that's why he bailed when he did, carefully claiming multiple times that he thought it was a set up until the actual bombing happened.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:14 PM on March 24 [33 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:14 PM on March 24 [33 favorites]
he would have shut up and just kept reading texts for a long, long time
Agree that while he could have gotten more dirt, the next situation might put more lives at stake. This is not to devalue the lives lost in the attacks, simply to agree that exposing this stupidity now might, and I mean might, save lives in the future.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:16 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
Agree that while he could have gotten more dirt, the next situation might put more lives at stake. This is not to devalue the lives lost in the attacks, simply to agree that exposing this stupidity now might, and I mean might, save lives in the future.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:16 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
There was also no guarantee that the users would continue to use that specific Signal thread. The article states it was created and titled specifically for the Houthi attacks. If these idiots were dumb enough to have some ongoing DISCUSS ALL MILITARY PLANS HERE thread then I agree JG should have waited on this, however that specific message chain probably was not going to be used again in general. I was disappointed that he exited it immediately after the attacks, but I'm guessing that was also on the advice of some legal counsel.
posted by andruwjones26 at 1:27 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
posted by andruwjones26 at 1:27 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Note that it was also designated the "Houthi small group." The pre-attack text from Hegseth and the round of congratulations might have been the end of the line.
There's a chance they might have added "JG" to the next ad hoc group, but I'm guessing not.
(oops. what andruwjones26 said.)
posted by martin q blank at 1:28 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
There's a chance they might have added "JG" to the next ad hoc group, but I'm guessing not.
(oops. what andruwjones26 said.)
posted by martin q blank at 1:28 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
This was a plot point in A Bridge Too Far. The Nazis stumbled onto a full set of the Allies' top secret battle plans, but thought it must be a trap, that no-one could be so stupid as to leave battle plans just lying around.
It's true that the German army recovered the plans for Market Garden from a downed glider. Oops! But it's also true that the Allies planted false plans; see Operation Mincemeat.
Of course, that was from a time when America enjoyed allies and wasn't evil.
posted by SPrintF at 1:28 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
It's true that the German army recovered the plans for Market Garden from a downed glider. Oops! But it's also true that the Allies planted false plans; see Operation Mincemeat.
Of course, that was from a time when America enjoyed allies and wasn't evil.
posted by SPrintF at 1:28 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Zero reporting about it on the FoxEntertainmentNews site.
posted by tarantula at 1:31 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by tarantula at 1:31 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
Finally being mentioned in the NYTimes. Not worthy of top-level placement, apparently, but still higher than stories on how to charter a yacht.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:42 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:42 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
Ir wouldn't matter how good the official tools are. Part of the point is to avoid having official records created.
posted by Mitheral at 1:45 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 1:45 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
Or you could just text war plans from your iphone while on the toilet to whatever random contacts you like, cos you're lazy, and nobody cares when you're R, and after all, the Russians just get it direct from Gabbard and the mango moron first anyway.
I'm betting it's because these guys literally can never stop tweeting.
posted by FutureExpatCorb at 1:48 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
I'm betting it's because these guys literally can never stop tweeting.
posted by FutureExpatCorb at 1:48 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
Thanks for the chuckle, They sucked his brains out!. SO SO true.
In the meantime, I shouldn't be surprised that the formerly reliable WaPo still insists on sanewashing. Sure, blame the application! Current headline is "White House acknowledges ‘inadvertent’ leak involving top Trump officials. Key national security figures discussed highly sensitive military plans using an unclassified chat application."
posted by Melismata at 1:52 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
In the meantime, I shouldn't be surprised that the formerly reliable WaPo still insists on sanewashing. Sure, blame the application! Current headline is "White House acknowledges ‘inadvertent’ leak involving top Trump officials. Key national security figures discussed highly sensitive military plans using an unclassified chat application."
posted by Melismata at 1:52 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
philip-random, it's out on the regular news sources-- CNN, Politico, Yahoo, USA Today, MSNBC, WashPost. I don't know how early it broke on all of them.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:54 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:54 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Only the best people.
posted by socialjusticeworrier at 1:55 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by socialjusticeworrier at 1:55 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
"This was a plot point in A Bridge Too Far. The Nazis stumbled onto a full set of the Allies' top secret battle plans, but thought it must be a trap, that no-one could be so stupid as to leave battle plans just lying around."
In the American Civil War, three days of Confederate battle plans fell into the hands of General McClellan, but he didn't move fast enough to take advantage of the knowledge.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:57 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
In the American Civil War, three days of Confederate battle plans fell into the hands of General McClellan, but he didn't move fast enough to take advantage of the knowledge.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:57 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
Will Cain on Fox News
The bigger takeaway for me is it's a transparent insight -- into the thought process and dialogue of our national leaders... I think you will come away proud that these are the leaders making these decisions."posted by Nelson at 2:03 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
WHUT
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:04 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:04 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
It's the emojis that I keep coming back to.
posted by latkes at 2:10 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
posted by latkes at 2:10 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry for all the writers and creators of futuristic dystopian worlds because every passing day is robbing them of material.. no point writing your stories anymore, we are living the Department of Truth and entities like Fox News will just tell people what to think
Yeah, this is not getting fixed in the courts
posted by ginger.beef at 2:10 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Yeah, this is not getting fixed in the courts
posted by ginger.beef at 2:10 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Sounds like the agreed PR strategy is "Yeah, so what? This just shows how awesome we are!"
posted by TwoWordReview at 2:13 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by TwoWordReview at 2:13 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
... few days of Hegseth being a laughingstock is an okay prize I guess in a time of few prizes.
Can we nickname him Secretary SignalOops?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:14 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Can we nickname him Secretary SignalOops?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:14 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Finally being mentioned in the NYTimes. Not worthy of top-level placement, apparently, but still higher than stories on how to charter a yacht.
For those keeping score at home, this is currently the very top story in both NYT and WaPo. You do need to give them enough time to actually write the story.
posted by mcstayinskool at 2:27 PM on March 24 [27 favorites]
For those keeping score at home, this is currently the very top story in both NYT and WaPo. You do need to give them enough time to actually write the story.
posted by mcstayinskool at 2:27 PM on March 24 [27 favorites]
Second article on the Fox news home page, and the article is, to my surprise, rather balanced, basically just summarizing the Atlantic article.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:37 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:37 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
One of the details here I find extra horrific is the introduction of Christian Nationalism to the equation. They're busy ordering the deaths of people, and praying.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:41 PM on March 24 [15 favorites]
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:41 PM on March 24 [15 favorites]
One of the secondary effects of this kind of stuff being so brazen, and them being so proud of it, is that it steers events towards another great powers war much more quickly than almost anything they are doing other than their beloved project of dismantling the preventative post-war alliances. It's jarring that we have gone from such a thing being unthinkable to now seeming to be a matter of time and whether or not it represents full blown apocalypse or merely some new industrial hellscape battlefields.
Although it seems innocuous at first, I think other acts such as the announcement that destroyers are being re-tasked to the southern border combine with these attitudes to paint a picture of a real intent to somehow thread the needle and start a large conventional war without inviting nuclear catastrophe, or at least the latent belief that this is possible making them feel fearless. I'm hard pressed to think of a historical analog that ends well from this point but we have a first row seat to whatever this is
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:41 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Although it seems innocuous at first, I think other acts such as the announcement that destroyers are being re-tasked to the southern border combine with these attitudes to paint a picture of a real intent to somehow thread the needle and start a large conventional war without inviting nuclear catastrophe, or at least the latent belief that this is possible making them feel fearless. I'm hard pressed to think of a historical analog that ends well from this point but we have a first row seat to whatever this is
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:41 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
It can't be this obvious, but given the pattern of initials being used on the thread, it's possible he thought he was looping in Jamieson Greer, the US Trade Representative and member of the cabinet
But it can't be that obvious
posted by rossmeissl at 2:44 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
But it can't be that obvious
posted by rossmeissl at 2:44 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Of note, the administration felt the need to walk back Vance's extremely mild disagreement with Trump in the chat.
posted by girlmightlive at 3:01 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
posted by girlmightlive at 3:01 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
This is not embarrassing to them; It's a flex. It says "we don't even have to be competent to be in charge." It says "loyalty matters, not the ability to do the job." It says, "only our personal goals matter, we don't care if America fails, in fact we will cause it to fail so we can empty its pockets." Also: "and there's nothing you can do about it "
posted by rikschell at 3:02 PM on March 24 [22 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 3:02 PM on March 24 [22 favorites]
I'm hard-pressed to think of a more on the nose example of "the banality of evil" than an emoji-filled middle-manager's literal-actual-war group-chat
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:06 PM on March 24 [49 favorites]
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:06 PM on March 24 [49 favorites]
Yep, rikschell. And the media continues to insist that the administration fit their narrative, instead of the other way around. Throw in a bit of "if it bleeds it leads," and it will be the mainstream media that causes Civil War II.
posted by Melismata at 3:09 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 3:09 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
One of the details here I find extra horrific is the introduction of Christian Nationalism to the equation. They're busy ordering the deaths of people, and praying.
These people are not Christians, they're filled with hate, jealousy, callousness, they're the biggest fucking hypocrites. They follow the ostentatious bullshit put out by the clergy or whatever church leadership they adhere to, they say the words, but it's all theater.... where's the love each other part? where's the forgiveness? It's nowhere to be found because they're using their so called faith as a shield to justify their horrible actions.
I'm an staunch atheist but I was raised Catholic, I know an hypocrite when I see one (aka most of the catholic church)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:21 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
These people are not Christians, they're filled with hate, jealousy, callousness, they're the biggest fucking hypocrites. They follow the ostentatious bullshit put out by the clergy or whatever church leadership they adhere to, they say the words, but it's all theater.... where's the love each other part? where's the forgiveness? It's nowhere to be found because they're using their so called faith as a shield to justify their horrible actions.
I'm an staunch atheist but I was raised Catholic, I know an hypocrite when I see one (aka most of the catholic church)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:21 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
On the question of whether Christians can be hypocrites filled with hate, jealousy, and callousness I point to, well, the entire history of the past 2000 years.
posted by Justinian at 3:31 PM on March 24 [24 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:31 PM on March 24 [24 favorites]
...but this is going to have legs.
Oh, you sweet summer child.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:36 PM on March 24 [9 favorites]
Oh, you sweet summer child.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:36 PM on March 24 [9 favorites]
Justinian, I agree. Instead of saying "They're not Christians" I should have written "These Christians are incapable of following the message of Christ", which you'd think is what defines a Christian, but history clearly shows us it's not the case.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:47 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:47 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
I'm going to take a minute to appreciate the dilemma Jeffrey Goldberg found himself facing. Do you write an article as soon as this happens because it's a once-in-a-lifetime event for an investigative reporter? Or do you silently sit there in the group chat and see how many top secret war cabinet meetings you can attend before they notice you?
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 3:56 PM on March 24 [13 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 3:56 PM on March 24 [13 favorites]
If I were Jeffrey Goldberg, my main thought would be "what are the chances I'm going to be disappeared to an El Salvador torture facility?"
posted by Nelson at 4:09 PM on March 24 [25 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 4:09 PM on March 24 [25 favorites]
But her emails!
posted by brookeb at 4:41 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
posted by brookeb at 4:41 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
lol Amy Klobuchar shared a meme mocking Hegseth and this incident, and then VOTED to confirm one of Trumps nominees! wtf! Primary these idiots!!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:04 PM on March 24 [19 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:04 PM on March 24 [19 favorites]
That's DOGE at work. Texting it proactively saves the time and effort necessary to find a mole and get them to leak it separately, and saves the time and effort necessary to find the leak later. Chalk one up for efficiency!
posted by Snowflake at 5:08 PM on March 24
posted by Snowflake at 5:08 PM on March 24
I am curious about today's news potentially leading to:
- potential users finding out about and downloading Signal; a social media post today by Signal indicated it's at the top of a Google Play download chart in the category of free communication apps, and I imagine the publicity from this article is one reason why
- right-wingers deciding to switch to something else
- the administration suing or otherwise attacking Signal*
- Signal users double-checking the participant lists in our group chats and removing some lurkers or turning on auto-disappear timers
- Signal users increasingly verifying our correspondents' safety numbers (I have done this in the past, to get more certainty that I'm chatting with the person I think I'm chatting with)
I expect the Trump administration to go after [Signal]. It would be very hard to make it illegal here given the first amendment (though not, perhaps the TikTok ban proves, impossible) but it might turn out to be very easy, given how conciliatory the tech giants are being towards the Trump administration, for Trump to get it pulled from the app stores.posted by brainwane at 5:21 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
Collection of 2016 videos-- Republicans explaining what a serous breach Hilary's emails were. Sarcasm, insults, overacting.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:13 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:13 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
if there was anyone left in the world who thought they could trust the u s government as an ally, they've just woken up
this was a pitiful display of amateurism - these people don't know and it's real obvious
posted by pyramid termite at 6:17 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
this was a pitiful display of amateurism - these people don't know and it's real obvious
posted by pyramid termite at 6:17 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
I'm going to take a minute to appreciate the dilemma Jeffrey Goldberg found himself facing. Do you write an article as soon as this happens because it's a once-in-a-lifetime event for an investigative reporter? Or do you silently sit there in the group chat and see how many top secret war cabinet meetings you can attend before they notice you?
How Jeffrey Goldberg managed to refrain from dropping a "new phone, who dis?" somewhere along the way is a tribute to his professionalism.
posted by mazola at 6:28 PM on March 24 [24 favorites]
How Jeffrey Goldberg managed to refrain from dropping a "new phone, who dis?" somewhere along the way is a tribute to his professionalism.
posted by mazola at 6:28 PM on March 24 [24 favorites]
Just sending the message "Hi! This is editor in chief of The Atlantic Jeffrey Goldberg. If anyone would like to make a statement on the messages exchanged in the channel over the last few days I can be reached at Editor@TheAtlantic.com etc." *Mike Drop* Someone would probably have an unplanned, uncontrolled, fecal expulsion.
posted by Mitheral at 6:38 PM on March 24 [11 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 6:38 PM on March 24 [11 favorites]
In the American Civil War, three days of Confederate battle plans fell into the hands of General McClellan, but he didn't move fast enough to take advantage of the knowledge.
And that was after he got punked in the Peninsula campaign. McClellan had 120,000 men against ~11,000 men led by John B. Magruder, but was fooled by logs painted black to look like cannons and the Confederates marching through a clearing they knew the Union was watching, then marching around some woods and through the clearing again. McClellan delayed attacking while he asked for reinforcements, which allowed the Confederates to send reinforcements.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:41 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
And that was after he got punked in the Peninsula campaign. McClellan had 120,000 men against ~11,000 men led by John B. Magruder, but was fooled by logs painted black to look like cannons and the Confederates marching through a clearing they knew the Union was watching, then marching around some woods and through the clearing again. McClellan delayed attacking while he asked for reinforcements, which allowed the Confederates to send reinforcements.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:41 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
What struck me, reading the Signal conversation, was that most of their strategies concerned domestic politics, not geopolitics. JD Vance's comment about the Suez Canal, for example. He didn't want this to appear as something that would help out Europe, our enemy du jour.
posted by kozad at 7:57 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
posted by kozad at 7:57 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
It's possible they thought it was WCW Goldberg.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 8:36 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by The Hamms Bear at 8:36 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
THESE are the people who WON??
THESE
MORONS
WON!!!!!
i feel like i’m going insane
posted by dis_integration at 8:36 PM on March 24 [12 favorites]
THESE
MORONS
WON!!!!!
i feel like i’m going insane
posted by dis_integration at 8:36 PM on March 24 [12 favorites]
People tend to vote for folks with whom they align themselves. These guys won not despite being morons but because they are morons.
posted by Justinian at 8:38 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:38 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
It's the emojis that I keep coming back to.
💥🍄💪🏻🍆🍆🍆🍆🍆🍆
posted by flabdablet at 8:40 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
💥🍄💪🏻🍆🍆🍆🍆🍆🍆
posted by flabdablet at 8:40 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️⚰️🤣
posted by flabdablet at 8:43 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:43 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
Signal users increasingly verifying our correspondents' safety numbers (I have done this in the past, to get more certainty that I'm chatting with the person I think I'm chatting with)
Verifying the identity of the party on the other end of an encrypted connection is almost always treated as an optional extra in practice, even though it is in fact fundamental to the whole enterprise.
posted by flabdablet at 9:03 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Verifying the identity of the party on the other end of an encrypted connection is almost always treated as an optional extra in practice, even though it is in fact fundamental to the whole enterprise.
posted by flabdablet at 9:03 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
I thought oh no it can’t be - and it was. The thought of using a commercial texting program for secret-level government discussions makes me physically ill from the number of official secret acts and data reminders I’ve had to sign, it’s - I get trump’s idiots ignoring that but the rest of the actual government staff not shutting that down to go into secure channels is insanely flagrant. It’s the equivalent of discussing this on a crowded train.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:49 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:49 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
a crowded train would be more secure than this. this is like having this conversation in the lobby of every foreign intelligence service in the world. they're using their *personal* phones! and they clearly do this all the time because not a single person was like "hey maybe we shouldn't do this on signal?". if they're doing the war planning on signal they're doing absolutely everything else in group chats and probably most of it on X, The Everything App, using their store-bought personal iphones. Chinese intelligence probably knows what the Americans are about to do before most of the cabinet does.
We are currently clean on OPSEC. As in we have no opsec. Perfectly clean. We're polishing the glass so you can see what we're doing better. The most transparent administration in history.
posted by dis_integration at 10:06 PM on March 24 [22 favorites]
We are currently clean on OPSEC. As in we have no opsec. Perfectly clean. We're polishing the glass so you can see what we're doing better. The most transparent administration in history.
posted by dis_integration at 10:06 PM on March 24 [22 favorites]
Can we nickname him Secretary SignalOops?
posted by ZenMaster
Can we not? I and the whole Oops family resent any association with this clown car cabinet.
posted by St. Oops at 10:31 PM on March 24 [36 favorites]
posted by ZenMaster
Can we not? I and the whole Oops family resent any association with this clown car cabinet.
posted by St. Oops at 10:31 PM on March 24 [36 favorites]
the rest of the actual government staff not shutting that down to go into secure channels
is exactly why these clowns are using e2ee to begin with. Can't shut down what you can't see, and the promise of e2ee is that only invitees can see.
Most people, if they think about encryption at all, have a mental model that represents an encrypted connection as a communication channel with heavy armour around it. Which is a fine model as far as it goes, but that isn't far enough. Without robust identity verification, the wide-open ends of that armoured channel could be literally anywhere, and without robust endpoint protection there's no telling what happens to data on its way in and out of those ends.
Armouring the channel has been a solved problem for decades, and apps like Signal implement armour that's at least the equal of anything that governments employ for sensitive work. Unlike earlier nerd-centric encrypted facilities like PGP and S/MIME, they even do that in a way that's easy enough for anybody to use, which is why even a total fuckwit like Hegseth can get his head around them. But they are nowhere near as good at identity verification or endpoint protection as the government stuff is.
Signal can do nothing to guarantee that the device it's running on hasn't been compromised, and its "safety numbers" approach to the problem of identity guarantees is the weakest of weak sauce.
Security is first and foremost about understanding the threat, and Hegseth and the rest of the fuckwits-in-charge just don't. The folks who wrote the rules around SCIFs certainly do, but they work for the government so as far as this clown car is concerned that makes them waste to be sacked, not experts to pay attention to.
TFG and his cabinet of toddlers seek merely to protect themselves against Mommy telling them off for being naughty whenever they break rules they can't be arsed to follow, and Signal is as good an app for that as any. That they looped Mommy in by accident is frankly hilarious. I'm not really worried that Weird Uncle Vladimir might be the next accidental invitee because I don't believe he'd need looping in; that guy has yet to see a parental controls app he doesn't like.
posted by flabdablet at 10:44 PM on March 24 [19 favorites]
is exactly why these clowns are using e2ee to begin with. Can't shut down what you can't see, and the promise of e2ee is that only invitees can see.
Most people, if they think about encryption at all, have a mental model that represents an encrypted connection as a communication channel with heavy armour around it. Which is a fine model as far as it goes, but that isn't far enough. Without robust identity verification, the wide-open ends of that armoured channel could be literally anywhere, and without robust endpoint protection there's no telling what happens to data on its way in and out of those ends.
Armouring the channel has been a solved problem for decades, and apps like Signal implement armour that's at least the equal of anything that governments employ for sensitive work. Unlike earlier nerd-centric encrypted facilities like PGP and S/MIME, they even do that in a way that's easy enough for anybody to use, which is why even a total fuckwit like Hegseth can get his head around them. But they are nowhere near as good at identity verification or endpoint protection as the government stuff is.
Signal can do nothing to guarantee that the device it's running on hasn't been compromised, and its "safety numbers" approach to the problem of identity guarantees is the weakest of weak sauce.
Security is first and foremost about understanding the threat, and Hegseth and the rest of the fuckwits-in-charge just don't. The folks who wrote the rules around SCIFs certainly do, but they work for the government so as far as this clown car is concerned that makes them waste to be sacked, not experts to pay attention to.
TFG and his cabinet of toddlers seek merely to protect themselves against Mommy telling them off for being naughty whenever they break rules they can't be arsed to follow, and Signal is as good an app for that as any. That they looped Mommy in by accident is frankly hilarious. I'm not really worried that Weird Uncle Vladimir might be the next accidental invitee because I don't believe he'd need looping in; that guy has yet to see a parental controls app he doesn't like.
posted by flabdablet at 10:44 PM on March 24 [19 favorites]
DUI Hire Peter's personal phone has got to be an absolute party bus of foreign intelligence agencies by this point.
Just to spell things out: end-to-end transmission security means jack shit if you hack one of the ends. And every nation-state is sitting on a stash of zero-day exploits which they will spend like water towards a target one thousandth as juicy as a Secretary of Defense texting military planning details on his consumer phone.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:12 AM on March 25 [9 favorites]
Just to spell things out: end-to-end transmission security means jack shit if you hack one of the ends. And every nation-state is sitting on a stash of zero-day exploits which they will spend like water towards a target one thousandth as juicy as a Secretary of Defense texting military planning details on his consumer phone.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:12 AM on March 25 [9 favorites]
In terms of messaging, everybody with a chance ought to keep asking: is the President happy you made that decision for him to let this blindside him?
posted by away for regrooving at 12:16 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
posted by away for regrooving at 12:16 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
We are currently clean on OPSEC. As in we have no opsec.
Alternatively, a typo: OOPSEC. Which they seem to be real good at.
posted by pwnguin at 12:30 AM on March 25 [9 favorites]
Alternatively, a typo: OOPSEC. Which they seem to be real good at.
posted by pwnguin at 12:30 AM on March 25 [9 favorites]
Mr. Trump, speaking to reporters at the White House, said that he had no knowledge of the article in The Atlantic. “I don’t know anything about it,” he said, adding, “You’re telling me about it for the first time.”...
The group chat also included a dissent from Mr. Vance, who called the timing of the Yemen operation a “mistake.” He and Mr. Hegseth both argued in the chat that European countries benefited from the U.S. Navy’s efforts to protect shipping lanes from Houthi attacks.
“I am not sure the president is aware how inconsistent this is with his message on Europe right now,” Mr. Vance wrote before the operation. He said he was “willing to support the consensus of the team and keep these concerns to myself.”
But he added that “I just hate bailing Europe out again.”
Mr. Hegseth replied: “I fully share your loathing of European free-loading. It’s PATHETIC.” But, he said, “I think we should go.”
Beyond the bullshit defense of a media ("for those playing at home" etc.) that won't ask the obvious questions, this immediately suggests a Constitutional crisis, in that the sitting President is either not aware of his staff using the military to wage acts of war — and that is even looking beyond the need for Congress to give authorization for that war, even if the order was to come from the President — or he is lying about not knowing.
Where is the fucking press and when will it do its job and ask those questions?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:32 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
The group chat also included a dissent from Mr. Vance, who called the timing of the Yemen operation a “mistake.” He and Mr. Hegseth both argued in the chat that European countries benefited from the U.S. Navy’s efforts to protect shipping lanes from Houthi attacks.
“I am not sure the president is aware how inconsistent this is with his message on Europe right now,” Mr. Vance wrote before the operation. He said he was “willing to support the consensus of the team and keep these concerns to myself.”
But he added that “I just hate bailing Europe out again.”
Mr. Hegseth replied: “I fully share your loathing of European free-loading. It’s PATHETIC.” But, he said, “I think we should go.”
Beyond the bullshit defense of a media ("for those playing at home" etc.) that won't ask the obvious questions, this immediately suggests a Constitutional crisis, in that the sitting President is either not aware of his staff using the military to wage acts of war — and that is even looking beyond the need for Congress to give authorization for that war, even if the order was to come from the President — or he is lying about not knowing.
Where is the fucking press and when will it do its job and ask those questions?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:32 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
I didn't know that I needed this, but
posted by fragmede at 1:06 AM on March 25 [6 favorites]
👀 You have got to be kidding me. http://www.theatlantic.com/politic...@hillaryclinton on threads.net
posted by fragmede at 1:06 AM on March 25 [6 favorites]
I think Trump was denying knowledge of the Atlantic article and the story about the leak, not the bombing of the Houthis itself. Last I checked the joint chiefs still need direct signoff from the President, not the VP. But given well, Trump (and a similar dereliction of Presidental authority on Jan 6th) certainly someone in the media should be fucking confirming that.
For context, the Houthi's started using missiles and drones to attack commercial shipping around the Bab el-Mandeb strait, which is a relatively narrow bottleneck between the Indian Ocean and Red Sea by Yemen - container ships have to go through there to reach the Suez canal and hence the Mediterranean (oil tankers can offload to the SUMED pipeline through Egypt, so don't have to transit Suez itself). The alternative route for Asian/Europe shipping is going the long way around the horn of Africa. The Houthis started attacking ships due to the invasion of Gaza, but ceased with the ceasefire. Insurance costs for ships going via the Red Sea + Suez rose substantially due to the attacks, so many companies switched to the longer route, delaying and raising the costs of freight, and carbon emissions, significantly, which has been part of inflation for the last two years. Various navies have been active in the region, including the US, to try and protect the remaining shipping with escorts. Biden also used airstrikes on Houthi launch sites to protect US navy ships which have come under attack.
The best way to protect shipping was the ceasefire in Gaza - the Houthis have been more focused on the Yemeni government since the end of last year and pledged to stop attacking ships bar Israeli flagged ones (the last attack was in Dec), though have now threatened to resume attacks since Israel's latest breach of the ceasefire. Shipping through the Red Sea has not increased yet though. The Yemeni war has significantly involved countries like Saudi Arabia, though the West only really pays attention when it impacts on global commerce. I don't know that Europe is exactly begging for the US to bomb the Houthis and kill civilians over this; the real solution is ending the Israeli attacks in Gaza. And there's plenty of US-flagged or owned civilian ships involved. But of course Trump's minions would see it as bailing out Europe and want to present a bill.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:23 AM on March 25 [6 favorites]
For context, the Houthi's started using missiles and drones to attack commercial shipping around the Bab el-Mandeb strait, which is a relatively narrow bottleneck between the Indian Ocean and Red Sea by Yemen - container ships have to go through there to reach the Suez canal and hence the Mediterranean (oil tankers can offload to the SUMED pipeline through Egypt, so don't have to transit Suez itself). The alternative route for Asian/Europe shipping is going the long way around the horn of Africa. The Houthis started attacking ships due to the invasion of Gaza, but ceased with the ceasefire. Insurance costs for ships going via the Red Sea + Suez rose substantially due to the attacks, so many companies switched to the longer route, delaying and raising the costs of freight, and carbon emissions, significantly, which has been part of inflation for the last two years. Various navies have been active in the region, including the US, to try and protect the remaining shipping with escorts. Biden also used airstrikes on Houthi launch sites to protect US navy ships which have come under attack.
The best way to protect shipping was the ceasefire in Gaza - the Houthis have been more focused on the Yemeni government since the end of last year and pledged to stop attacking ships bar Israeli flagged ones (the last attack was in Dec), though have now threatened to resume attacks since Israel's latest breach of the ceasefire. Shipping through the Red Sea has not increased yet though. The Yemeni war has significantly involved countries like Saudi Arabia, though the West only really pays attention when it impacts on global commerce. I don't know that Europe is exactly begging for the US to bomb the Houthis and kill civilians over this; the real solution is ending the Israeli attacks in Gaza. And there's plenty of US-flagged or owned civilian ships involved. But of course Trump's minions would see it as bailing out Europe and want to present a bill.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:23 AM on March 25 [6 favorites]
Talking Points Memo:
"Using a Signal app like this is hiding what’s happening from the government itself. And that is almost certainly not an unintended byproduct but the very reason for the use..."
posted by brainwane at 2:10 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
"Using a Signal app like this is hiding what’s happening from the government itself. And that is almost certainly not an unintended byproduct but the very reason for the use..."
posted by brainwane at 2:10 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
Well, yeah. It's completely consistent with the belief this shower of fuckwits has expressed in a "Deep State" that exists solely to frustrate the "policy" aims of "conservatives" like them.
posted by flabdablet at 3:07 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 3:07 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
It's all so puerile. More and more, I think they invited Goldberg deliberately. They were playing at being Obama in the SCIF during the assassination of bin Laden, but the adults wouldn't let them into the SCIF, because why would those people be there in the first place? I mean what is Bessent doing there?
And to be fair, with the knowledge we have out here, Vance's questions are pretty sane (not the Europe-hating part of course, but the why are we even doing this?- part). My best guess is that the Saudis or Israelis asked for it, which would be why Wittkof was there?
They were betting that Goldberg would write a smarmy ass-licking article about how smart they all are, and then it blew up in their shit-faces. Boo.
Well that's my theory anyway. OK, it's a stupid theory, but not stupider than these guys.
posted by mumimor at 3:45 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
And to be fair, with the knowledge we have out here, Vance's questions are pretty sane (not the Europe-hating part of course, but the why are we even doing this?- part). My best guess is that the Saudis or Israelis asked for it, which would be why Wittkof was there?
They were betting that Goldberg would write a smarmy ass-licking article about how smart they all are, and then it blew up in their shit-faces. Boo.
Well that's my theory anyway. OK, it's a stupid theory, but not stupider than these guys.
posted by mumimor at 3:45 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I’m fascinated by two elements of this.
The first is that somebody thinks they’re not just taking cell phones into SCIFs.
The second is that that these people for the most part do not break character even when they think they’re securely talking among themselves. It’s still all the Let’s Go Brandon MAGA bullshit even when they don’t have an audience. I assume it’s because the grifters don’t know who else is a grifter and who’s a true believer. I hope they find it exhausting.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 4:29 AM on March 25 [17 favorites]
The first is that somebody thinks they’re not just taking cell phones into SCIFs.
The second is that that these people for the most part do not break character even when they think they’re securely talking among themselves. It’s still all the Let’s Go Brandon MAGA bullshit even when they don’t have an audience. I assume it’s because the grifters don’t know who else is a grifter and who’s a true believer. I hope they find it exhausting.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 4:29 AM on March 25 [17 favorites]
Having read Jeffrey Goldberg’s Wikipedia article (rather than just my recollection of him as the guy whose articles convinced my family to support the Iraq invasion because it was “good for Israel”), and having put on my shiniest tinfoil hat, I concede there’s a slim chance that Goldberg was included on purpose because he’s one of Netanyahu’s PR guys and the strikes helped allow the Israelis to break the ceasefire.
posted by Jon_Evil at 5:14 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 5:14 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
It can't be this obvious, but given the pattern of initials being used on the thread, it's possible he thought he was looping in Jamieson Greer, the US Trade Representative and member of the cabinetNot only do I think it could be entirely this obvious, but that's the crucial piece of information that makes the whole thing fall into place for me. It seems likely enough to be presumptively true. Which is a shame, really, because I was sort of hoping this was an "accident" resulting from an acute attack of conscience over the absolutely inexcusable way the administration is conducting official business. It could still be true, but I'd be way too far out on a limb to infer that Goldberg was selected for the leak specifically because he shared initials with someone who would be authorized to be on the thread. I don't know much about Waltz, but it seems to be his fuckup, and either way I won't be surprised if he needs to "spend more time with his family" soon.
I'm far less alarmed by the leak itself than by the revelation that the administration is willing to violate the Espionage Act and compromise national security in order to dodge their requirements under the Public Records Act. The lede isn't incompetence. It's the absolute implication that the participants are planning ahead to enable coverup of potentially criminal activity. There is no reason not to use the appropriate and secured officially established channels (which, among other things, guarantee against this sort of mistake) except to be in the habit of avoiding leaving a paper trail.
posted by gelfin at 5:34 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
It's the absolute implication that the participants are planning ahead to enable coverup of potentially criminal activity.
We did know that already, though.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:58 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
We did know that already, though.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:58 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
Telegram has channels which are more public/open than simple group chats in Signal, but it has been booted from the App Store before. One of its founders was indicted and is under judicial supervision in France.
They could switch to WhatsApp which also has end to end encryption & is run by a friend of orange. If they wanted their own server or a gold check for .gov accounts, all they have to do is ask.
Or elno could finally add e2e encryption to X DMs. Unintended consequences don't have to be negative as brainwane pointed out.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 6:50 AM on March 25
They could switch to WhatsApp which also has end to end encryption & is run by a friend of orange. If they wanted their own server or a gold check for .gov accounts, all they have to do is ask.
Or elno could finally add e2e encryption to X DMs. Unintended consequences don't have to be negative as brainwane pointed out.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 6:50 AM on March 25
Has it been mentioned here that it looks like Witkoff was in Moscow during the chat? I heard it on CNN while I was doing something else, and can't find a reliable source -- yet.
posted by mumimor at 7:20 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 7:20 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
My theory is that Waltz used voice input (microphone icon, lower right corner of Signal contacts screen) to search for “JD” [Vance] and it heard “JG”. And then he accidentally added Goldberg when the unexpected entry appeared on the screen.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:30 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:30 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
the revelation that the administration is willing to violate the Espionage Act and compromise national security in order to dodge their requirements under the Public Records Act.
I'd be $5 that it's more just that these guys live on their phones and are extremely lazy
posted by BungaDunga at 7:44 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I'd be $5 that it's more just that these guys live on their phones and are extremely lazy
posted by BungaDunga at 7:44 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
Trump brushes it off as a "glitch" and says Waltz "has learned a lesson".
No accountability, and no consequences.
posted by essexjan at 7:54 AM on March 25 [16 favorites]
No accountability, and no consequences.
posted by essexjan at 7:54 AM on March 25 [16 favorites]
Most people, if they think about encryption at all, have a mental model that represents an encrypted connection as a communication channel with heavy armour around it. Which is a fine model as far as it goes, but that isn't far enough. Without robust identity verification, the wide-open ends of that armoured channel could be literally anywhere, and without robust endpoint protection there's no telling what happens to data on its way in and out of those ends.
So you're saying it's secure against a man-in-the-middle attack? Hey, that's good enough for BitCoin, right?
posted by nickmark at 8:10 AM on March 25
So you're saying it's secure against a man-in-the-middle attack? Hey, that's good enough for BitCoin, right?
posted by nickmark at 8:10 AM on March 25
“This is what happens when you replace DEI with DUI.”
Comment on another thread about this.
posted by bz at 8:21 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
Comment on another thread about this.
posted by bz at 8:21 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
Fucken DUI hires...
posted by fragmede at 8:23 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
posted by fragmede at 8:23 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
No accountability, and no consequences.
if this begins and ends with memes and snark, then the no consequences part is kind of on us? really ask yourself: what will it take
posted by ginger.beef at 8:30 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
if this begins and ends with memes and snark, then the no consequences part is kind of on us? really ask yourself: what will it take
posted by ginger.beef at 8:30 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
I am reminded of the aphorism that when a situation could be explained by malice or incompetence, always choose the latter. But with these guys, ¿por qué no los dos? Hegseth is obviously cosplaying SecDef, has no clue what he's doing, and no interest in learning. Rubio I'd expect would have picked up some good habits through osmosis, but who knows?
I am also reminded that during GWB's administration (a model of probity by comparison), someone here on Metafilter coined the word "malcompetence" for exactly this kind of situation.
posted by adamrice at 8:32 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
I am also reminded that during GWB's administration (a model of probity by comparison), someone here on Metafilter coined the word "malcompetence" for exactly this kind of situation.
posted by adamrice at 8:32 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
Some context about Jeffrey Goldberg. In 2020 he reported Trump: Americans Who Died in War Are ‘Losers’ and ‘Suckers’ (archive link), original reporting about a 2018 event that was embarrassing to Trump vis-a-vis his relationship with the military.
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
Most of these guys have spoken publicly and at length about security and not using private platforms for government work, you know, back in 2016. They all sounded like they understood the concepts back then. So they are using signal deliberately, well knowing that it is wrong and also illegal. Why? Well, given that they were all chosen as cabinet members for their corruptibility, I'm guessing that there is a bit more than laziness and ignorance going on there.
posted by mumimor at 8:44 AM on March 25 [10 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 8:44 AM on March 25 [10 favorites]
on this topic, from Josh Marshall @ TalkingPointsMemo:
Using a Signal app like this is hiding what’s happening from the government itself. And that is almost certainly not an unintended byproduct but the very reason for the use. These are disappearing communications. They won’t be in the national archives. Future administrations won’t know what happened. There also won’t be any records to determine whether crimes were committed.
Full article
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:49 AM on March 25 [18 favorites]
Using a Signal app like this is hiding what’s happening from the government itself. And that is almost certainly not an unintended byproduct but the very reason for the use. These are disappearing communications. They won’t be in the national archives. Future administrations won’t know what happened. There also won’t be any records to determine whether crimes were committed.
Full article
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:49 AM on March 25 [18 favorites]
So you're saying it's secure against a man-in-the-middle attack?
No. If you don't know where the other end of your armoured pipe is, you specifically can't be sure it isn't in some MITM box.
James O'Brien expresses dissatisfaction with the performance of press lapdogs
posted by flabdablet at 9:03 AM on March 25
No. If you don't know where the other end of your armoured pipe is, you specifically can't be sure it isn't in some MITM box.
James O'Brien expresses dissatisfaction with the performance of press lapdogs
posted by flabdablet at 9:03 AM on March 25
"I am quite perturbed that I have been a part of EVE Online corporations with vastly better OPSEC and SIGINT than apparently my nation's own real world federal government"
and
"Tip: in case you lose your phone and so all your Signal chat histories, add a reporter or hostile nation state to your group chats for free backup and recovery."
posted by brainwane at 9:03 AM on March 25 [16 favorites]
and
"Tip: in case you lose your phone and so all your Signal chat histories, add a reporter or hostile nation state to your group chats for free backup and recovery."
posted by brainwane at 9:03 AM on March 25 [16 favorites]
They all sounded like they understood the concepts back then
As I recall, they all sounded like they'd memorized their assigned talking points. I don't remember thinking of any of the complaints about Her Emails as informed by anything more detailed than simple recognition of the available smear potential.
posted by flabdablet at 9:06 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
As I recall, they all sounded like they'd memorized their assigned talking points. I don't remember thinking of any of the complaints about Her Emails as informed by anything more detailed than simple recognition of the available smear potential.
posted by flabdablet at 9:06 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
Future administrations won’t know what happened.
the Free State of Vermont will have more pressing issues in the future
posted by ginger.beef at 9:34 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
the Free State of Vermont will have more pressing issues in the future
posted by ginger.beef at 9:34 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
The other factor is elite decadence, that they’re doing it BECAUSE it’s what they slammed Hillary for and they’re flaunting how special they are, that their “mission” is so important that the rules are waived for them
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:51 AM on March 25 [13 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:51 AM on March 25 [13 favorites]
The other factor is elite decadence, that they’re doing it BECAUSE it’s what they slammed Hillary for and they’re flaunting how special they are, that their “mission” is so important that the rules are waived for them
Don't see any reason to think it was done on purpose. It just looks utterly incompetent. They're embarrassed, despite trying to spin it and say it doesn't matter. It's a massive self- own and everyone knows it, including the president, the propaganda outlets, and everyone who works in govt and the military.
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:58 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
I'm a little surprised by Tulsi Gabbard's response in the senate hearing. She flat out said there was no classified information shared in the group chat. She obviously couldn't say something to the effect of "I personally didn't share any classified information" since she declined to acknowledge she was even a participant. Ratcliffe more or less did say that (he said something to the effect of "My usage was permissable and legal") and I'm wondering if she dug herself a hole here.
posted by TwoWordReview at 11:48 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
posted by TwoWordReview at 11:48 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
There are two things here: using Signal for national security conversations and inviting the journalist. The first was definitely on purpose. The second was most probably not (despite my theory above). It is really important for the Democrats and whatever is left of a free press to explore why they are on Signal instead of using well-established government channels. And also to determine why this particular group of people were invited to participate in the discussion.
Wittkoff was literally in Moscow when this happened, as confirmed in the Senate hearing. Either in public space or in a hotel room that was certainly bugged, because all hotel rooms used by US officials in Moscow are bugged. So now the Russians know details of US military actions.
I doubt any of these people will face any personal consequences. But the transatlantic alliance is over now*, so the US as a nation will face the consequences and someone needs to explain this in plain words with a huge megaphone.
This will have a huge impact on the US economy, and thus the bread and butter issues everyone cares about. Already before this happened, several countries all over the world were looking to pull out of US arms deals. Now it would be irresponsible to go ahead with anything one could get out of. I wonder how Lockheed Martin and their employees feel about that. But civilian industries will be impacted as well. So many things are tied up with national security in all countries, things like medicine and food, and transportation.
Also, specifically related to the issue at hand, Europe and China will have completely different solutions to the situation in Yemen, solutions that will not at all be popular in the US, and they do want to solve the problems. Which is what Trump and Vance don't understand at the basic level: the US isn't bailing Europe out, the US is maintaining its influence in Europe and the Middle East.
*I mean, it's been sort of over for the last month or so, but especially the UK has been clinging to a hope that there would be some sort of sense within the Trump administration, like Rubio or something. Or at least some sense that democracy would solve this and everything go back to normal in 2028.
posted by mumimor at 12:12 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
Wittkoff was literally in Moscow when this happened, as confirmed in the Senate hearing. Either in public space or in a hotel room that was certainly bugged, because all hotel rooms used by US officials in Moscow are bugged. So now the Russians know details of US military actions.
I doubt any of these people will face any personal consequences. But the transatlantic alliance is over now*, so the US as a nation will face the consequences and someone needs to explain this in plain words with a huge megaphone.
This will have a huge impact on the US economy, and thus the bread and butter issues everyone cares about. Already before this happened, several countries all over the world were looking to pull out of US arms deals. Now it would be irresponsible to go ahead with anything one could get out of. I wonder how Lockheed Martin and their employees feel about that. But civilian industries will be impacted as well. So many things are tied up with national security in all countries, things like medicine and food, and transportation.
Also, specifically related to the issue at hand, Europe and China will have completely different solutions to the situation in Yemen, solutions that will not at all be popular in the US, and they do want to solve the problems. Which is what Trump and Vance don't understand at the basic level: the US isn't bailing Europe out, the US is maintaining its influence in Europe and the Middle East.
*I mean, it's been sort of over for the last month or so, but especially the UK has been clinging to a hope that there would be some sort of sense within the Trump administration, like Rubio or something. Or at least some sense that democracy would solve this and everything go back to normal in 2028.
posted by mumimor at 12:12 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
Oh well it seems like they’re throwing Hegseth under the bus
“ But when pressed on whether the sensitive operational details for the forthcoming strikes against Iran-backed militants that Hegseth reportedly sent to the thread were classified, both top intelligence officials deferred to the defense secretary.
“With respect to the assertions and the allegations that there was strike packages or targeting information or things that relate to DOD, as I pointed out, the Secretary of Defense is the original classification authority for determining whether something is classified or not, and as I’ve understood from media reports, the Secretary of Defense has said the information was not classified,” Ratcliffe told lawmakers.”
posted by TwoWordReview at 12:54 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
“ But when pressed on whether the sensitive operational details for the forthcoming strikes against Iran-backed militants that Hegseth reportedly sent to the thread were classified, both top intelligence officials deferred to the defense secretary.
“With respect to the assertions and the allegations that there was strike packages or targeting information or things that relate to DOD, as I pointed out, the Secretary of Defense is the original classification authority for determining whether something is classified or not, and as I’ve understood from media reports, the Secretary of Defense has said the information was not classified,” Ratcliffe told lawmakers.”
posted by TwoWordReview at 12:54 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Will Cain on Fox News
The bigger takeaway for me is it's a transparent insight -- into the thought process and dialogue of our national leaders... I think you will come away proud that these are the leaders making these decisions."
This statement is "believe me, not your lying eyes" signaling to Fox News viewers.
posted by Gelatin at 12:59 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
The bigger takeaway for me is it's a transparent insight -- into the thought process and dialogue of our national leaders... I think you will come away proud that these are the leaders making these decisions."
This statement is "believe me, not your lying eyes" signaling to Fox News viewers.
posted by Gelatin at 12:59 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
Trump officials testify in Senate hearing after war plans revealed to journalist in chat (PBS NewsHour, YouTube, 2h8m)
posted by flabdablet at 1:16 PM on March 25 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:16 PM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Trump officials testify in Senate hearing after war plans revealed to journalist in chat
Wow, the Republicans are so - I don't know what the words are - so full of shit, it's almost unbelievable, except we live in this world.
posted by mumimor at 1:46 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
Wow, the Republicans are so - I don't know what the words are - so full of shit, it's almost unbelievable, except we live in this world.
posted by mumimor at 1:46 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
Questioning about the group chat fiasco starts 45 minutes in.
posted by flabdablet at 2:08 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 2:08 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
On a humorous note... Americans aren't good at keeping group chats secret I think.
(see 4 Nations cup)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:14 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
(see 4 Nations cup)
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:14 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Michael Bennet ripping Ratcliffe a new one at 1h28m
posted by flabdablet at 3:04 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 3:04 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Gabbard and Ratcliffe get their "I don't recall" on when questioned by Mark Kelly at 1h39m
posted by flabdablet at 3:24 PM on March 25
posted by flabdablet at 3:24 PM on March 25
Oh god, it's painful to watch.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:32 PM on March 25
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:32 PM on March 25
Susan Rice going through the situation.
"BTW, it's bizarre that the acting chairman of the joint chiefs was not on that Signal group"
She obviously doesn't mean a General should be on Signal, but that that type of meeting makes no sense without the military brass.
posted by mumimor at 4:07 PM on March 25 [9 favorites]
"BTW, it's bizarre that the acting chairman of the joint chiefs was not on that Signal group"
She obviously doesn't mean a General should be on Signal, but that that type of meeting makes no sense without the military brass.
posted by mumimor at 4:07 PM on March 25 [9 favorites]
NYTimes has some interesting and telling political analysis. The biggest one which is no surprise but useful to have documented: Leak of Signal Chat Poses Early Test for F.B.I. and Justice Dept.
The weirdest thing in today's news is they're all now trying to claim none of the info on the group chat was classified. Given they said that, one wonders if Goldberg feels he can release all the parts of the chat he didn't share because it was so sensitive it might get people killed.
posted by Nelson at 4:25 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
In years past ... would have represented a serious breach that would have likely prompted investigations by the F.B.I. and the Justice Department’s national security division.There's also Republicans in Congress React to Signal Chat Leak With Collective Shrug and After Signal Leak, Vance Focuses on Proving His Loyalty to Trump.
Yet so far, neither the attorney general, Pam Bondi, nor the F.B.I. director, Kash Patel, appear to be planning to investigate ...
The bureau and the department have undertaken these kind of investigations to figure out the extent of damage to the country’s national security, uncover other instances of recklessness and examine whether laws have been broken.
The weirdest thing in today's news is they're all now trying to claim none of the info on the group chat was classified. Given they said that, one wonders if Goldberg feels he can release all the parts of the chat he didn't share because it was so sensitive it might get people killed.
posted by Nelson at 4:25 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
Vance is going to Sisimut in Greenland to spend time with Usha and Mike Waltz, and btw Chris Wright. This wasn't the original plan, but I guess he needs to be beyond screaming distance for a while.
Greenland is not happy.
posted by mumimor at 4:43 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
Greenland is not happy.
posted by mumimor at 4:43 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
Hey, if it's a private visit just turn him away at customs.
posted by Mitheral at 4:51 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 4:51 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
Not to derail , but why doesn't Greenland just deny entry? would it be more of an international incident than Don Jr showing up and bloviating over the US taking over?
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:56 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:56 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
Given they said that, one wonders if Goldberg feels he can release all the parts of the chat he didn't share because it was so sensitive it might get people killed.
Goldberg should absolutely state his intention to publish the entire chat in, say, 1 week's time, unless there is a public, official statement that the chat contents were, in fact, classified. Without that pressure, the Trump administration will certainly get away with it. With that pressure, they will only probably get away with it.
posted by jedicus at 4:58 PM on March 25 [12 favorites]
Goldberg should absolutely state his intention to publish the entire chat in, say, 1 week's time, unless there is a public, official statement that the chat contents were, in fact, classified. Without that pressure, the Trump administration will certainly get away with it. With that pressure, they will only probably get away with it.
posted by jedicus at 4:58 PM on March 25 [12 favorites]
Update: while I was walking the dog, it was announced that now Mr. and Mrs. Vance will go to Greenland without the other officials, and that they will only go to the Pituffik Space Base.
posted by mumimor at 5:08 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 5:08 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
oh,
"To assist with port operations, Pituffik is home to the only tugboat in the Department of the Air Force"
there's a hilariously ironic gif in this.
posted by clavdivs at 6:03 PM on March 25 [5 favorites]
"To assist with port operations, Pituffik is home to the only tugboat in the Department of the Air Force"
there's a hilariously ironic gif in this.
posted by clavdivs at 6:03 PM on March 25 [5 favorites]
Goldberg should absolutely state his intention to publish the entire chat in, say, 1 week's time, unless there is a public, official statement that the chat contents were, in fact, classified.
If he announced his plans beforehand, Republicans would immediately put a hit out on him, knowing any functional equivalent of a sheriff has already been bought off with a can of bacon grease, and that they can pretty much get away with murder, and that the military and media will help them do so.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:13 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
If he announced his plans beforehand, Republicans would immediately put a hit out on him, knowing any functional equivalent of a sheriff has already been bought off with a can of bacon grease, and that they can pretty much get away with murder, and that the military and media will help them do so.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:13 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
Waltz had been pitching the idea that the reporter "infiltrated" the Signal chat. While obviously a lie, that would be worse, right? Like much worse.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:44 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:44 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
The other factor is elite decadence, that they’re doing it BECAUSE it’s what they slammed Hillary for and they’re flaunting how special they are, that their “mission” is so important that the rules are waived for them
The entire conservative mindset is based around a fundamental rejection of egalitarianism. They invariably believe in, at minimum, a two-tiered society where they the conservative is on the top and everyone else on the bottom. This is why it is pointless trying to own them by pointing out their innumerable hypocrisies; a double standard is foundational to their worldview. [Bold mine]posted by non canadian guy at 1:02 AM on March 26 [13 favorites]
Now that The Atlantic has gone ahead and published the chat, does anyone have a nonpaywalled link?
posted by Wretch729 at 6:07 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
posted by Wretch729 at 6:07 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
one wonders if Goldberg feels he can release all the parts of the chat he didn't share
That would have been my question in that hearing: Very well, Director Ratcliffe, there's nothing to see in this matter. Could you please get out your phone, then, and read to us all the chat in question, so there's absolutely no question about what was discussed?
posted by Rykey at 6:14 AM on March 26
That would have been my question in that hearing: Very well, Director Ratcliffe, there's nothing to see in this matter. Could you please get out your phone, then, and read to us all the chat in question, so there's absolutely no question about what was discussed?
posted by Rykey at 6:14 AM on March 26
TRIP has a good discussion of this chaotic bordello, with Rory Stewart describing quite accurately how this type of meetings normally happen, a bit like Susan Rice yesterday. (It's only the first half of the show).
posted by mumimor at 6:32 AM on March 26
posted by mumimor at 6:32 AM on March 26
here you go! https://archive.md/T4RTF
As an army brat, I find this very hard to read. My dad and both granddads most be rotating so hard in their graves, you could power a whole city from the anger if you could hook them up to the grid.
I'm also f-ing scared.
posted by mumimor at 6:42 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
As an army brat, I find this very hard to read. My dad and both granddads most be rotating so hard in their graves, you could power a whole city from the anger if you could hook them up to the grid.
I'm also f-ing scared.
posted by mumimor at 6:42 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
So how long until Select Committees get dissolved or attendance before them becomes non-mandatory?
posted by epo at 7:00 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
posted by epo at 7:00 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Since the administration said there was nothing classified, the Atlantic published the whole thing (except the identify of a CIA employee).
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:03 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:03 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
There was absolutely no reason in the world that Hegseth should share that information before the attack. None, nada, niente.
We know now that Wittkoff was probably reading this and making emojis in the Kremlin.
They should all be kicked out of government and brought to justice, but if someone is sacrificed here, I guess it'll be Hegseth and Waltz who were the most blatant offenders. Trump doesn't care about anyone, but he may care about public opinion and on the other hand, he may find it difficult to find sufficiently corrupt people for those positions. It's a dilemma /s
posted by mumimor at 7:18 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
We know now that Wittkoff was probably reading this and making emojis in the Kremlin.
They should all be kicked out of government and brought to justice, but if someone is sacrificed here, I guess it'll be Hegseth and Waltz who were the most blatant offenders. Trump doesn't care about anyone, but he may care about public opinion and on the other hand, he may find it difficult to find sufficiently corrupt people for those positions. It's a dilemma /s
posted by mumimor at 7:18 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
That transcript is... wow. "Mike Waltz set disappearing message time to 4 weeks".
Nothing classified my ass, it has the exact times the f-18s were going to be launched. When the drones will be on target. When the tomahawks would be launched. Putting that in an unsecured chat literally endangered the lives of the pilots.
"We are currently clean on OPSEC".
posted by mrgoat at 7:39 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
Nothing classified my ass, it has the exact times the f-18s were going to be launched. When the drones will be on target. When the tomahawks would be launched. Putting that in an unsecured chat literally endangered the lives of the pilots.
"We are currently clean on OPSEC".
posted by mrgoat at 7:39 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
Yeah, and the Russians who obviously read in on this could have given the information to the Iranians or Houthis if it had suited their plans.
posted by mumimor at 7:43 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 7:43 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
Trump national security officials are currently testifying to the House live.
Rep. Jim Himes (paraphrasing): "DNI Gabbard, the use of emojis in this chat suggests a serious lack of sobriety... I don't mean that literally."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:44 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Rep. Jim Himes (paraphrasing): "DNI Gabbard, the use of emojis in this chat suggests a serious lack of sobriety... I don't mean that literally."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:44 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Nothing classified my ass...
You also left off possibly the most damning info - the chain confirms we have a human intelligence asset who was in position in Yemen to personally confirm the success of the strike!
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 7:45 AM on March 26 [14 favorites]
You also left off possibly the most damning info - the chain confirms we have a human intelligence asset who was in position in Yemen to personally confirm the success of the strike!
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 7:45 AM on March 26 [14 favorites]
Sorry if I missed it but has it been noted who added the journalist and that was done in this secure group? That would seem espionage to ruin the effort and even DJT should care about that.
posted by beaning at 7:55 AM on March 26
posted by beaning at 7:55 AM on March 26
You also left off possibly the most damning info - the chain confirms we have a human intelligence asset who was in position in Yemen to personally confirm the success of the strike!
Or at least, we used to...
posted by Gelatin at 7:57 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Or at least, we used to...
posted by Gelatin at 7:57 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Mike Waltz added him; it's noted at the top of the transcript.
posted by mrgoat at 7:58 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
posted by mrgoat at 7:58 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
that was done in this secure group
See that's just it. Signal is NOT a secure group for classified information, period.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 8:04 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
See that's just it. Signal is NOT a secure group for classified information, period.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 8:04 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
Here's images of the chat texts from the article. archive.today is down now so I can't share a paywall busting link to The Atlantic's reporting.
I'd thought this was just a group chat for the men to share their excitement at killing some people. I didn't quite realize the discussion was part of the decision process to carry out the attack in the first place.
posted by Nelson at 8:06 AM on March 26
I'd thought this was just a group chat for the men to share their excitement at killing some people. I didn't quite realize the discussion was part of the decision process to carry out the attack in the first place.
posted by Nelson at 8:06 AM on March 26
Waltz and Trump have started attacking Goldberg and The Atlantic. I genuinely worry that the journalist is not safe. Either from illegal US government action or from stochastic terrorism from one of the thugs Trump inspires, perhaps pardoned.
Note Waltz's comments are all about casting suspicion on how he added Goldberg to the group chat. And nothing about the existence of the group chat on Signal, which itself is a serious crime.
posted by Nelson at 8:09 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Note Waltz's comments are all about casting suspicion on how he added Goldberg to the group chat. And nothing about the existence of the group chat on Signal, which itself is a serious crime.
posted by Nelson at 8:09 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
I appreciate that reporters and elected Democrats and at least one oversight watchdog nonprofit are seizing on the opportunity to call for resignations, launch a lawsuit, hold investigations, press for answers, and so on.
posted by brainwane at 8:10 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
posted by brainwane at 8:10 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
That transcript is... wow. "Mike Waltz set disappearing message time to 4 weeks".
So the obvious implication of that is this is standard practice for these chucklefucks' Signal group chats. So in addition to god knows what other ongoing classified chats the Russians monitored while Witkoff was there (or anyone else who has targeted these unhardened phones or the signal app itself), they are routinely using this to avoid records laws - specifically because they want everything they do to get deleted. Except for foreign intelligence services of course.
If the rest of 5 eyes don't immediately shut down or dramatically curtail what info gets shared with the US that will be a huge dereliction of their own duty. No doubt they've been assuming anything they send could end up in Russian hands due to the known leaks like Gabbard, Musk and Trump - now they have to assume the Chinese and Iran and god knows who else too.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 8:11 AM on March 26 [13 favorites]
So the obvious implication of that is this is standard practice for these chucklefucks' Signal group chats. So in addition to god knows what other ongoing classified chats the Russians monitored while Witkoff was there (or anyone else who has targeted these unhardened phones or the signal app itself), they are routinely using this to avoid records laws - specifically because they want everything they do to get deleted. Except for foreign intelligence services of course.
If the rest of 5 eyes don't immediately shut down or dramatically curtail what info gets shared with the US that will be a huge dereliction of their own duty. No doubt they've been assuming anything they send could end up in Russian hands due to the known leaks like Gabbard, Musk and Trump - now they have to assume the Chinese and Iran and god knows who else too.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 8:11 AM on March 26 [13 favorites]
Please, please, please if the Dems have learned nothing else from the last 4 years -- just keep this in the news. 47 and co. care very much about controlling the news cycle and now the Dems have an opportunity to just.keep.hammering. this nail and don't let up. Use every angle, every committee. Make it a talking point at every press junket. Control the news cycle.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:20 AM on March 26 [15 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:20 AM on March 26 [15 favorites]
CBS is reporting that according to flight data Witkoff was in Moscow meeting with Putin during the chat.
posted by mrgoat at 8:24 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
posted by mrgoat at 8:24 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
If the rest of 5 eyes don't immediately shut down or dramatically curtail what info gets shared with the US that will be a huge dereliction of their own duty
It has long been my hope that they did this starting in January of 2017, working under the assumption that any intel shared with Trump and his team would very shortly be shared with Putin and the Saudis at the very least back then; and now, via Musk, with China as well.
In my dream world, at least one prominent Republican would be honest enough to publicly admit to the fact that had this happened under Clinton (either one), Obama, Biden, or Harris, the R's would literally be calling for the President and everyone involved to not only resign but also be executed for treason.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:30 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
It has long been my hope that they did this starting in January of 2017, working under the assumption that any intel shared with Trump and his team would very shortly be shared with Putin and the Saudis at the very least back then; and now, via Musk, with China as well.
In my dream world, at least one prominent Republican would be honest enough to publicly admit to the fact that had this happened under Clinton (either one), Obama, Biden, or Harris, the R's would literally be calling for the President and everyone involved to not only resign but also be executed for treason.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:30 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
There's a post circulating on BlueSky that compares Hegseth's actual post to the CENTCOM secrecy classification guide.
Hegseth provided the date and time the mission was supposed to begin; the mission timeline and schedule, and the resources being used (F-18 fighters, MQ-9 drones, sea-based Tomahawk missiles.)
The last is supposed to be classified S, and the first two or S or S//Rel. In other words, Hegseth disclosed classified information. Meaning Gabbard and Ratcliffe perjured themselves yesterday, if they were under oath, and Hegseth lied. Trump lied, too, but it's becoming increasingly clear he's just a doddering rubber-stamp for the Project 2025 crowd.
The Dems need to haul in Hegseth and Waltz and crucify them for the screwup and the ridiculous attempt at a coverup. And drag Gabbard and Ratcliffe back in, too. Seriously, how did Gabbard not see this coming when she made that statement?
posted by martin q blank at 8:38 AM on March 26 [18 favorites]
Hegseth provided the date and time the mission was supposed to begin; the mission timeline and schedule, and the resources being used (F-18 fighters, MQ-9 drones, sea-based Tomahawk missiles.)
The last is supposed to be classified S, and the first two or S or S//Rel. In other words, Hegseth disclosed classified information. Meaning Gabbard and Ratcliffe perjured themselves yesterday, if they were under oath, and Hegseth lied. Trump lied, too, but it's becoming increasingly clear he's just a doddering rubber-stamp for the Project 2025 crowd.
The Dems need to haul in Hegseth and Waltz and crucify them for the screwup and the ridiculous attempt at a coverup. And drag Gabbard and Ratcliffe back in, too. Seriously, how did Gabbard not see this coming when she made that statement?
posted by martin q blank at 8:38 AM on March 26 [18 favorites]
That transcript is... wow. "Mike Waltz set disappearing message time to 4 weeks".
Didn’t Trump fire the National Archivist a week or two ago? That office was a driving force in the Mar A Lago classified documents indictment IIRC. It’d be kind of Al Capone-ish if Waltz goes down not for massive security breaches but for non-curation of documents but I guess I’d take it.
posted by Rumple at 8:46 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Didn’t Trump fire the National Archivist a week or two ago? That office was a driving force in the Mar A Lago classified documents indictment IIRC. It’d be kind of Al Capone-ish if Waltz goes down not for massive security breaches but for non-curation of documents but I guess I’d take it.
posted by Rumple at 8:46 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Ratcliffe just threw a huge tanty about Democrats persistently bringing up the text thing instead of asking him about what a great job he's been doing, enabled by yet another softball from a Republican.
Fucking insane.
posted by flabdablet at 8:59 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
Fucking insane.
posted by flabdablet at 8:59 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
Meaning Gabbard and Ratcliffe perjured themselves yesterday, if they were under oath
I think if we look at the last 40 years of right wing reactionary takeover of the government, the number 1 thing that they've taken advantage of in their efforts to destroy the rule of law and weaken oversight of the executive is that there have been zero consequences for lying under oath to congress. From conservative supreme court justices to cabinet officials to staffers, they lie under oath over and over and over and nothing, absolutely nothing happens. If we had been punishing these people for perjuring themselves before congress this would have smothered the fascism baby in its crib.
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
I think if we look at the last 40 years of right wing reactionary takeover of the government, the number 1 thing that they've taken advantage of in their efforts to destroy the rule of law and weaken oversight of the executive is that there have been zero consequences for lying under oath to congress. From conservative supreme court justices to cabinet officials to staffers, they lie under oath over and over and over and nothing, absolutely nothing happens. If we had been punishing these people for perjuring themselves before congress this would have smothered the fascism baby in its crib.
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
If there had ever been any consequences for rich people post-Watergate, we would not be in this situation. The takeaway has always been "if you are rich, we will shake our fingers and write Very Serious editorials, but you can just ignore us and the whole thing will blow over".
posted by Frowner at 9:06 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 9:06 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
i don't care what you did at fox and friends, peter, catch a bubble
posted by Sperry Topsider at 9:07 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
posted by Sperry Topsider at 9:07 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
The current R line appears to be that none of what Hegseth told The Atlantic contained a specific target location ergo move along, nothing to see here. Also, fentanyl fentanyl fentanyl immigrants fentanyl fentanyl.
What a pathetic shower.
posted by flabdablet at 9:09 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
What a pathetic shower.
posted by flabdablet at 9:09 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
Some loose thoughts:
More secure communications techniques/tools are often inconvenient, compared to less secure methods. Signal is sort of deceptively attractive for folks like these officials, because it's probably got an easier-to-learn and easier-to-use experience than the properly secure tools the military and intelligence apparatus uses, and it's secure enough (and has a good enough reputation) that other people and groups they trust use it a lot. If I recall correctly something I read a while back, Signal group chats are the platform DOGE's team trusts and uses to coordinate its actions.
And: they mostly don't have to care about their adversaries (terrorists, other governments) eavesdropping, because any adverse outcomes, they can spin as Biden's fault and yet another reason to support and expand Trump's agenda.
Separately:
I've read some consternation that this particular scandal is attracting notice and outrage and spurring significant pushback, compared to other horrifying things this administration has done. So I've been thinking about some reasons why, and how the shape of this news and this moment offer easy affordances (ease-of-use again!) for the outrage to coalesce, build, and drive action.
This particular scandal has screenshots that immediately, to many readers, show us that something incompetent and bad happened. News stories about some form of paperwork that causes pain (funding cuts, censorship, visa revocation) don't have this kind of visual impact, and many news consumers assume that someone being arrested probably deserves it. So many of the awful things over the last 2 months haven't had an immediate visual symbol like this -- the woman at the Coeur d'Alene town hall, dragged out by anonymous non-police men, is one of the closest. Something atrocious, something that -- without any other captions or context -- tells the viewer "a bad thing is happening that could not possibly be justified, and it's this administration's fault".
It's salient, not in the impact of the bombing, but in that pretty much everyone who comes across it can easily understand what went wrong. We have phones and email accounts, we've texted or emailed or called the wrong person, and we know you gotta be careful with that sort of thing when the stakes are high. This isn't plausible as a legal gray area -- does the President have certain authority over offices within the executive branch? How much legal protection should this category of immigrant have? etc. This is plainly a high-stakes screwup.
Journalists are used to data leak/breach/coverup stories and so this kind of story gives them a handle that's easy for them to grasp (I believe Jamelle Bouie brought up this point on Bluesky).
I also think the timing coincides with a moment where some Congressional Democrats have found a bit more of a spine.
posted by brainwane at 9:19 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
More secure communications techniques/tools are often inconvenient, compared to less secure methods. Signal is sort of deceptively attractive for folks like these officials, because it's probably got an easier-to-learn and easier-to-use experience than the properly secure tools the military and intelligence apparatus uses, and it's secure enough (and has a good enough reputation) that other people and groups they trust use it a lot. If I recall correctly something I read a while back, Signal group chats are the platform DOGE's team trusts and uses to coordinate its actions.
And: they mostly don't have to care about their adversaries (terrorists, other governments) eavesdropping, because any adverse outcomes, they can spin as Biden's fault and yet another reason to support and expand Trump's agenda.
Separately:
I've read some consternation that this particular scandal is attracting notice and outrage and spurring significant pushback, compared to other horrifying things this administration has done. So I've been thinking about some reasons why, and how the shape of this news and this moment offer easy affordances (ease-of-use again!) for the outrage to coalesce, build, and drive action.
This particular scandal has screenshots that immediately, to many readers, show us that something incompetent and bad happened. News stories about some form of paperwork that causes pain (funding cuts, censorship, visa revocation) don't have this kind of visual impact, and many news consumers assume that someone being arrested probably deserves it. So many of the awful things over the last 2 months haven't had an immediate visual symbol like this -- the woman at the Coeur d'Alene town hall, dragged out by anonymous non-police men, is one of the closest. Something atrocious, something that -- without any other captions or context -- tells the viewer "a bad thing is happening that could not possibly be justified, and it's this administration's fault".
It's salient, not in the impact of the bombing, but in that pretty much everyone who comes across it can easily understand what went wrong. We have phones and email accounts, we've texted or emailed or called the wrong person, and we know you gotta be careful with that sort of thing when the stakes are high. This isn't plausible as a legal gray area -- does the President have certain authority over offices within the executive branch? How much legal protection should this category of immigrant have? etc. This is plainly a high-stakes screwup.
Journalists are used to data leak/breach/coverup stories and so this kind of story gives them a handle that's easy for them to grasp (I believe Jamelle Bouie brought up this point on Bluesky).
I also think the timing coincides with a moment where some Congressional Democrats have found a bit more of a spine.
posted by brainwane at 9:19 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
Ratcliffe just threw a huge tanty about Democrats persistently bringing up the text thing instead of asking him about what a great job he's been doing, enabled by yet another softball from a Republican.
Fucking insane.
posted by flabdablet at 8:59 AM on March 26
Oh, yeah, that was a hissy fit of unparalleled performance.
Mind you (and I know it has nothing to do with this specific topic) Patel essentially saying Canada is an adversary on par with China, and one that is responsible for terrorists crossing into the US (and other evils) is just mindblowing.
posted by sardonyx at 9:21 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Fucking insane.
posted by flabdablet at 8:59 AM on March 26
Oh, yeah, that was a hissy fit of unparalleled performance.
Mind you (and I know it has nothing to do with this specific topic) Patel essentially saying Canada is an adversary on par with China, and one that is responsible for terrorists crossing into the US (and other evils) is just mindblowing.
posted by sardonyx at 9:21 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
> and: they mostly don't have to care about their adversaries (terrorists, other governments) eavesdropping, because any adverse outcomes, they can spin as biden's fault and yet another reason to support and expand trump's agenda.
they do care about keeping adversaries from knowing what they're doing, though. it's just the adversaries they're concerned about aren't terrorists or other governments. they're just worried about exposing information to anyone in the u.s. government who's in a position to oversee the actions of the executive branch.
posted by Sperry Topsider at 9:26 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
they do care about keeping adversaries from knowing what they're doing, though. it's just the adversaries they're concerned about aren't terrorists or other governments. they're just worried about exposing information to anyone in the u.s. government who's in a position to oversee the actions of the executive branch.
posted by Sperry Topsider at 9:26 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
OMG, and now, in answers to NY's Tenney (and her insulting questions), he's talking about working with Canada and with First Nations whose lands straddle the borders! Oh, yeah, that's going to go really well given the Trump government's attitude. [insert sarcasm tag]
posted by sardonyx at 9:27 AM on March 26
posted by sardonyx at 9:27 AM on March 26
Also seeing a lot of chatter about how these SOBs are fist-pumping and congratulating each other for an attack that destroyed an apartment building. From the Atlantic's transcripts:
posted by martin q blank at 9:49 AM on March 26 [18 favorites]
At 2 p.m., Waltz responded: “Typing too fast. The first target – their top missile guy – we had positive ID of him walking into his girlfriend’s building and it’s now collapsed.”They deliberately targeted a civilian residence. Reminder that Trump and others have been saying that the attacks were on military targets.
Vance responded a minute later: “Excellent.” Thirty-five minutes after that, Ratcliffe, the CIA director, wrote, “A good start,” which Waltz followed with a text containing a fist emoji, an American-flag emoji, and a fire emoji. The Houthi-run Yemeni health ministry reported that at least 53 people were killed in the strikes, a number that has not been independently verified.
posted by martin q blank at 9:49 AM on March 26 [18 favorites]
The fact that even Trump noted it was a screw up (the only glitch in 2 months) tells you how big this is. This may be the only thing he’s ever admitted to as not great in the history of his presidency.
How many Scaramucci’s will Hegseth last?
posted by TwoWordReview at 9:50 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
How many Scaramucci’s will Hegseth last?
posted by TwoWordReview at 9:50 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
Oh, yeah, that's going to go really well given the Trump government's attitude.
Trump actually has a close working relationship with CERTAIN Native American groups, which is less surprising when you factor in his past as a casino operator
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 9:55 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Trump actually has a close working relationship with CERTAIN Native American groups, which is less surprising when you factor in his past as a casino operator
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 9:55 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
the screwup and the ridiculous attempt at a coverup
Those are bad, but I think it's a problem that this is getting covered everywhere as a screwup/blunder/glitch/oopsie.
Accidentally inviting the wrong person might be a blunder (although when the stakes are that high, I'd think it's more than that).
But making the conscious decision to actively break laws and regulations on both secure communications and record keeping - that's not a "whoops my finger slipped" blunder and shouldn't be treated as such.
please if the Dems have learned nothing else from the last 4 years -- just keep this in the news
I think what we've learned is that a new horror or a new outrageous thing will hit the news shortly and everyone will move on to that.
posted by trig at 9:56 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
Those are bad, but I think it's a problem that this is getting covered everywhere as a screwup/blunder/glitch/oopsie.
Accidentally inviting the wrong person might be a blunder (although when the stakes are that high, I'd think it's more than that).
But making the conscious decision to actively break laws and regulations on both secure communications and record keeping - that's not a "whoops my finger slipped" blunder and shouldn't be treated as such.
please if the Dems have learned nothing else from the last 4 years -- just keep this in the news
I think what we've learned is that a new horror or a new outrageous thing will hit the news shortly and everyone will move on to that.
posted by trig at 9:56 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
But making the conscious decision to actively break laws and regulations on both secure communications and record keeping - that's not a "whoops my finger slipped" blunder and shouldn't be treated as such.
Agreed. It's important to stay on that, and I'm glad the administration is being sued for part of that.
Like brainwane was saying, though, the reason this is sticking in the news and (one hopes) with the public is because the screwup part is so easy to understand and so hard to contradict. So I'll happily accept that the low road keeps this thing moving and maybe enables the high road of getting them on violating security and records laws.
posted by martin q blank at 10:05 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Agreed. It's important to stay on that, and I'm glad the administration is being sued for part of that.
Like brainwane was saying, though, the reason this is sticking in the news and (one hopes) with the public is because the screwup part is so easy to understand and so hard to contradict. So I'll happily accept that the low road keeps this thing moving and maybe enables the high road of getting them on violating security and records laws.
posted by martin q blank at 10:05 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
60% of Republicans think the Trump administration's military leak is a very or somewhat serious problem
YouGov polling conducted the day after this information was revealed found that most Americans — 74% — say the conduct by Trump administration officials is a very (53%) or somewhat (21%) serious problem. The leak of military operations information is viewed as a very or somewhat serious problem by 89% of Democrats, 72% of Independents, and 60% of Republicans.posted by rambling wanderlust at 10:08 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
> brainwane: "It's salient, not in the impact of the bombing, but in that pretty much everyone who comes across it can easily understand what went wrong."
::100 emoji::. I also believe that the utter comprehensibility of this fuck-up should also be used to hammer the Republicans' response to the fuck-up. It should be apparent to everyone that they're just scrambling to make excuses, lying to cover their asses, blaming everyone else but themselves, etc... It's a truly pathetic display that anyone who's had to deal with petulant spoiled brats or weaselly bullies should be able to recognize. I feel like everyone should be hammering this as hard as the original fuck-up. As they say, "it's not the crime, it's the coverup". And in this case, they're not even trying to actually cover things up. Personally, I would be going after Republicans' honor. Just keep highlighting how dishonorable this display has been, how their shamelessness and bravado aren't signs of their strength but evidence of their lack of honor.
posted by mhum at 10:14 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
::100 emoji::. I also believe that the utter comprehensibility of this fuck-up should also be used to hammer the Republicans' response to the fuck-up. It should be apparent to everyone that they're just scrambling to make excuses, lying to cover their asses, blaming everyone else but themselves, etc... It's a truly pathetic display that anyone who's had to deal with petulant spoiled brats or weaselly bullies should be able to recognize. I feel like everyone should be hammering this as hard as the original fuck-up. As they say, "it's not the crime, it's the coverup". And in this case, they're not even trying to actually cover things up. Personally, I would be going after Republicans' honor. Just keep highlighting how dishonorable this display has been, how their shamelessness and bravado aren't signs of their strength but evidence of their lack of honor.
posted by mhum at 10:14 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
Man, I just hate to think just how much Trump could charge these buffoons for Presidential Pardons, if the going price used to be $2 million before inflation! Just having a group dinner with him costs at least $1 million now, or $5 million for one on one...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 10:16 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
posted by rambling wanderlust at 10:16 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
One thing I haven't seen commented on is Hegseth's declaration that "We are prepared to execute, and if I had final go or no go vote, I believe we should. This [is] not about the Houthis."
From the entire context it's clear this is an extension of messaging by other means, one could say, and the notion that it is somehow not about the very people who are getting the bombs dropped on them (people, he also says, "no one knows about") is extra revealing of the naive and callous instrumentalism of violence.
It's what you get when you mix toxic masculinity, bombs, inexperience, stupidity and prejudice together in a super sekrit clubhouse.
posted by Rumple at 11:12 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
From the entire context it's clear this is an extension of messaging by other means, one could say, and the notion that it is somehow not about the very people who are getting the bombs dropped on them (people, he also says, "no one knows about") is extra revealing of the naive and callous instrumentalism of violence.
It's what you get when you mix toxic masculinity, bombs, inexperience, stupidity and prejudice together in a super sekrit clubhouse.
posted by Rumple at 11:12 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
I think Hegseth may actually resign out of this. Something tells me that this won’t be an ignorable problem for the natsec hawks that do still exist in the party. Given that he just BARELY squeaked past confirmation and several cabinet members just perjured themselves, it would probably be pretty convenient for Hegseth to take the fall and stop it there. Trump can make some headlines in a few days with the tariffs or Greenland some other stupid shit and push the resignation out of the cycle.
That is unless, of course, Trump actually likes Hegseth. Which I doubt.
posted by Room 101 at 11:27 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
That is unless, of course, Trump actually likes Hegseth. Which I doubt.
posted by Room 101 at 11:27 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
I did enjoy this emoji commentary at WaPo (can't find non-paywall now).
Trump breezily dismissed the scandal, first saying “I don’t know anything about it” and later saying Waltz shouldn’t apologize, because this is “just something that can happen.” 👑👑👑🙈🙉🙊
“The knives are out for NSA Mike Waltz over Signalgate,” wrote Politico’s Playbook. “Will he last the day?” 🔪🗡⚔ ☠⚰
But the White House press secretary was making no such acknowledgment. Karoline Leavitt attacked Goldberg for his “sensationalist spin” and alleged that “no ‘war plans’ were discussed” and “no classified material was sent to the thread.” 🤥 🤥 🤥 🤥
It sounds as though Hegseth and Waltz are in for a pretty crappy week. 💩💩💩
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:27 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
Trump breezily dismissed the scandal, first saying “I don’t know anything about it” and later saying Waltz shouldn’t apologize, because this is “just something that can happen.” 👑👑👑🙈🙉🙊
“The knives are out for NSA Mike Waltz over Signalgate,” wrote Politico’s Playbook. “Will he last the day?” 🔪🗡⚔ ☠⚰
But the White House press secretary was making no such acknowledgment. Karoline Leavitt attacked Goldberg for his “sensationalist spin” and alleged that “no ‘war plans’ were discussed” and “no classified material was sent to the thread.” 🤥 🤥 🤥 🤥
It sounds as though Hegseth and Waltz are in for a pretty crappy week. 💩💩💩
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:27 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
60% of Republicans think the Trump administration's military leak is a very or somewhat serious problem
Military veterans vote Republican 2 to 1, they know what a fuck up this is regardless of spin.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 11:32 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Military veterans vote Republican 2 to 1, they know what a fuck up this is regardless of spin.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 11:32 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Military veterans vote Republican 2 to 1, they know what a fuck up this is regardless of spin.
Trump's been shitting on them since time immemorial. I don't think they don't care.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:38 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
Trump's been shitting on them since time immemorial. I don't think they don't care.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:38 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
Trump's been shitting on them since time immemorial. I don't think they don't care.
True, but they still voted for him 2 to 1. But this is something drilled into soldiers, this is the kind of intel you can't beat out of them, yet Pistol Pete fires it off in a signal chat.
On a related note, I am pleased to see people referring to this as the "Whiskeyleaks" scandal!
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 11:46 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
True, but they still voted for him 2 to 1. But this is something drilled into soldiers, this is the kind of intel you can't beat out of them, yet Pistol Pete fires it off in a signal chat.
On a related note, I am pleased to see people referring to this as the "Whiskeyleaks" scandal!
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 11:46 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Another thing I haven't seen commented on is towards the end of the published group chat transcript (archive), Waltz says this, after the bombing was complete, during the mutual backpatting:
"The Team in MAL did a great job as well"
I am not really in tune with all the defence department acronyms, there are a lot and MAL could mean anything I guess, but it seems likely to me in context,and use of the preposition "in", that MAL refers to Mar a Lago. It would be interesting to see if there was coordination of this attack being organized at that notoriously insecure (and no doubt infiltrated) honeypit.
It also might point to Trump being more aware of the planning process than he has let on.
posted by Rumple at 11:47 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
"The Team in MAL did a great job as well"
I am not really in tune with all the defence department acronyms, there are a lot and MAL could mean anything I guess, but it seems likely to me in context,and use of the preposition "in", that MAL refers to Mar a Lago. It would be interesting to see if there was coordination of this attack being organized at that notoriously insecure (and no doubt infiltrated) honeypit.
It also might point to Trump being more aware of the planning process than he has let on.
posted by Rumple at 11:47 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
It also might point to Trump's limo driver being more aware of the planning process than he has let on. FTFY
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:56 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:56 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
60% of Republicans think the Trump administration's military leak is a very or somewhat serious problem
Once the "target location wasn't shared" cope starts doing the rounds I'm sure that will be back under 40% in a week.
Just having a group dinner with him costs at least $1 million now
unless Waltz hands you a freebie for reasons as yet unclear.
posted by flabdablet at 12:10 PM on March 26
Once the "target location wasn't shared" cope starts doing the rounds I'm sure that will be back under 40% in a week.
Just having a group dinner with him costs at least $1 million now
unless Waltz hands you a freebie for reasons as yet unclear.
posted by flabdablet at 12:10 PM on March 26
But making the conscious decision to actively break laws and regulations on both secure communications and record keeping - that's not a "whoops my finger slipped" blunder and shouldn't be treated as such.
Objectively valid. But it's neither a choice nor an accident that the lawbreaking gets less traction.
To these guys' sympathizers, lawbreaking is a flex. Getting away with it is owning the libs. It's not a negative.
Coming off as a blundering boob is to a negative.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:40 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Objectively valid. But it's neither a choice nor an accident that the lawbreaking gets less traction.
To these guys' sympathizers, lawbreaking is a flex. Getting away with it is owning the libs. It's not a negative.
Coming off as a blundering boob is to a negative.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:40 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Getting away with it is owning the libs.
I mean, I don't expect a lot of people, even ones who vote left, to understand or care about the importance of record-keeping in maintaining rule of law over rule of "whatever we can get away with". If more people understood or cared about that, you wouldn't have these people in power in the first place.
But the importance of not doing top-secret national security stuff over the same messaging app on your phone that you'd organize a barbecue on? That's something people can probably understand if you talk about it loudly enough. Doing that kind of stuff isn't owning the libs, it's putting your country in danger. Whether or not your finger slips when you're doing the invites.
Then again people didn't care when it was Trump loudly talking about secret national security stuff within hearing range of all kinds of people at Mar a Lago, so what do I know.
posted by trig at 1:24 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
I mean, I don't expect a lot of people, even ones who vote left, to understand or care about the importance of record-keeping in maintaining rule of law over rule of "whatever we can get away with". If more people understood or cared about that, you wouldn't have these people in power in the first place.
But the importance of not doing top-secret national security stuff over the same messaging app on your phone that you'd organize a barbecue on? That's something people can probably understand if you talk about it loudly enough. Doing that kind of stuff isn't owning the libs, it's putting your country in danger. Whether or not your finger slips when you're doing the invites.
Then again people didn't care when it was Trump loudly talking about secret national security stuff within hearing range of all kinds of people at Mar a Lago, so what do I know.
posted by trig at 1:24 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Waltz is apparently lax with venmo as well.
posted by mygothlaundry at 2:03 PM on March 26 [1 favorite]
posted by mygothlaundry at 2:03 PM on March 26 [1 favorite]
True, but they still voted for him 2 to 1. But this is something drilled into soldiers, this is the kind of intel you can't beat out of them, yet Pistol Pete fires it off in a signal chat.
"OnceStalin Trump finds out I'm sure he'll fix this incompetence!"
posted by pwnguin at 2:18 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
"Once
posted by pwnguin at 2:18 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
If that's "fix" as in "in place" then yes, that's absolutely what he'll do.
posted by flabdablet at 4:14 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 4:14 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Waltz is apparently lax with venmo as well.
I read the article but I don't get why they would be sending microtransactions to such a wide variety and number of people in government etc.
I wondered if Venmo has a chat function which could be the real attraction, or some sort of quasi-text function like I send you 50 cents and in the secure transaction box I write the classified information.
Or does Venmo just inhale all your contact info as a matter of course?
I've never used Venmo so....
posted by Rumple at 4:29 PM on March 26
I read the article but I don't get why they would be sending microtransactions to such a wide variety and number of people in government etc.
I wondered if Venmo has a chat function which could be the real attraction, or some sort of quasi-text function like I send you 50 cents and in the secure transaction box I write the classified information.
Or does Venmo just inhale all your contact info as a matter of course?
I've never used Venmo so....
posted by Rumple at 4:29 PM on March 26
You also left off possibly the most damning info - the chain confirms we have a human intelligence asset who was in position in Yemen to personally confirm the success of the strike!
Or at least, we used to...
Insh'allah.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Or at least, we used to...
Insh'allah.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Republican senators break ranks to call for investigation of Signal leak scandal
posted by gwint at 5:01 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
posted by gwint at 5:01 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
adrienneleigh: "Or at least, we used to...
Insh'allah."
"Violence: It can be okay to talk in strongly critical terms about people's words but don't cross the line into .. wishing violence on other people."
posted by Klipspringer at 5:22 PM on March 26
Insh'allah."
"Violence: It can be okay to talk in strongly critical terms about people's words but don't cross the line into .. wishing violence on other people."
posted by Klipspringer at 5:22 PM on March 26
I know the Archival laws is probably s tiny sidebar in this whole thing, but I just found out that Marco Rubio, who was on this Signal chat, is also the Acting Archivist of the Unoted States and must have seen the "delete after one week" and delete after four weeks" flags in the thread when Waltz made those changes.
Source (cover sheet)
posted by Rumple at 5:26 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
Source (cover sheet)
posted by Rumple at 5:26 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
Republican senators break ranks to call for investigation of Signal leak scandal
The national security adviser, Mike Waltz, who reportedly added Jeffrey Goldberg, editor in chief of the Atlantic, to the group chat, took “full responsibility” for the leak on a Tuesday night Fox News appearance. However, he did not describe how the leak happened and trashed Goldberg, calling him “the bottom-scum of journalists”. During his television appearance, Waltz said he started the Signal group chat but unknowingly added a contact that happened to have Goldberg’s number.
“Of course I didn’t see this loser in the group, it looked like someone else,” he said.
What a fucking weasel.
posted by Reverend John at 6:35 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
The national security adviser, Mike Waltz, who reportedly added Jeffrey Goldberg, editor in chief of the Atlantic, to the group chat, took “full responsibility” for the leak on a Tuesday night Fox News appearance. However, he did not describe how the leak happened and trashed Goldberg, calling him “the bottom-scum of journalists”. During his television appearance, Waltz said he started the Signal group chat but unknowingly added a contact that happened to have Goldberg’s number.
“Of course I didn’t see this loser in the group, it looked like someone else,” he said.
What a fucking weasel.
posted by Reverend John at 6:35 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Call me old fashioned but "full responsibility" for such an epic fail means "I resign immediately"
posted by Rumple at 6:39 PM on March 26 [15 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 6:39 PM on March 26 [15 favorites]
“Of course I didn’t see this loser in the group, it looked like someone else,” he said.
Oh well that’s totally okay then…
posted by TwoWordReview at 7:29 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Oh well that’s totally okay then…
posted by TwoWordReview at 7:29 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
I read the article but I don't get why they would be sending microtransactions to such a wide variety and number of people in government etc.
I don't use Venmo much, but it's not limited to "micro" transactions, Venmo says that unverified accounts can spend $300 per day, verified accounts can move $60,000 per week.
Lots of places that provide goods and services will take Venmo (dentist, car repair, florist, etc.) and it's a super easy way to reimburse someone for your share of the lunch bill or whatever. (Also, with these chucklekfucks, probably just outright bribery.)
Or does Venmo just inhale all your contact info as a matter of course?
I think when I first signed up Venmo did offer to do this "for my convenience" but I said "fuck no."
posted by soundguy99 at 9:06 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
I don't use Venmo much, but it's not limited to "micro" transactions, Venmo says that unverified accounts can spend $300 per day, verified accounts can move $60,000 per week.
Lots of places that provide goods and services will take Venmo (dentist, car repair, florist, etc.) and it's a super easy way to reimburse someone for your share of the lunch bill or whatever. (Also, with these chucklekfucks, probably just outright bribery.)
Or does Venmo just inhale all your contact info as a matter of course?
I think when I first signed up Venmo did offer to do this "for my convenience" but I said "fuck no."
posted by soundguy99 at 9:06 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
There is now an English Wikipedia article about this incident. And it includes one of the screenshots from the group chat. Which is permissible, in terms of licensing, because:
But if any of the folks on the chat are not actually government employees - I seem to recall that one of them is a not-yet-confirmed official - I guess one of them could have a copyright claim to try to prevent reproduction of the images?
(And the Schroedinger's Official situation if Musk had been part of this particular chat would exacerbate that significantly.)
posted by brainwane at 9:44 PM on March 26 [1 favorite]
This work is in the public domain in the United States because it is a work prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Government as part of that person’s official duties under the terms of Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 105 of the US Code.(Copyright being distinct from classification level.)
But if any of the folks on the chat are not actually government employees - I seem to recall that one of them is a not-yet-confirmed official - I guess one of them could have a copyright claim to try to prevent reproduction of the images?
(And the Schroedinger's Official situation if Musk had been part of this particular chat would exacerbate that significantly.)
posted by brainwane at 9:44 PM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Private Data and Passwords of Senior U.S. Security Officials Found Online
Donald Trump's most important security advisers used Signal to discuss an imminent military strike. Now, reporting by DER SPIEGEL has found that the contact data of some of those officials, including mobile phone numbers, is freely accessible on the internet.
posted by mumimor at 11:17 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
Donald Trump's most important security advisers used Signal to discuss an imminent military strike. Now, reporting by DER SPIEGEL has found that the contact data of some of those officials, including mobile phone numbers, is freely accessible on the internet.
posted by mumimor at 11:17 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
If Hegseth's password turns out to be hunter2 I will shit my pants laughing.
posted by flabdablet at 3:18 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 3:18 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
Google Play Store reviews for the Signal Android app now include dozens of reviews alluding to this news, such as:
5* But please fix the bug where this "Michael Waltz" keeps inviting me to groupsposted by brainwane at 6:57 AM on March 27 [10 favorites]
[4 stars] I love this app. I had to remove a star as I keep getting added into the Department of Defense's group chats by accident.
Cool app, but where's the button to add myself to the war planning or election rigging chat?
it just works, well... you can trust it if you trust yourself and your friend.
...this app is the best by far because it is truly secure. Even the DoD/NSA (?) is using it, unfortunately you shouldn't send your SECRET military plans to the media. The only insecure element of Signal is between the chair and the keyboard....
100% would recommend. Great for sharing war plans, hitting up the plug, and everything in between.
If it's safe enough for US government officials to plan a military strike on a foreign adversary, it's safe enough to secretly plan your spouse's birthday party.
If this is good enough for Pete Hegseth and the gang, it's good enough for my euchre gang! 🤣
Amazing app! A++ So I legit downloaded Signal to set up a Pokémon GO raid with some friends, and somehow ended up in this group chat... planning a military strike?? I thought it was just a bunch of dudes organizing a Snorlax hunt - nope, turns out it was international warfare. and like, who knew Houthi wasn’t some kind of spicy falafel sauce? PRO TIP: change your name to “J.G.” and you just might be commanding airstrikes between gym battles. 10/10, definitely recommend.
Signal is great, I was planning a holiday to the middle east, but just before I finalised the booking, I got added to a Signal chain where US military leaders were planning a top secret bombing campaign in the area. Thanks to signal I avoided that !
Great for when your defense secretary and national security adviser need to expose war plans to the press, but it's encrypted so it's safer than drunk texting.
Great app! Very secure. Use it to send my buddies state war plans. Only giving it 4 stars because somehow a journalist slipped into our group chat? Idk how that happened lol. Anyway, see you at the bar
I finally got around to reading those chats and wow what's with their obsession with Europe?
They talk about bailing out "PATHETIC" Europe because Europe is incapable at defense etc etc. But, anyone who looks up the war around Yemen can see that European ships and helicopters working on this mission shot down numerous drones and missiles in the area. Are they so badly malinformed? Also: why on earth do they think shooting a few missiles will open up shipping lanes and keep ships safe? They really believe this? Yikes.
posted by UN at 7:13 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
They talk about bailing out "PATHETIC" Europe because Europe is incapable at defense etc etc. But, anyone who looks up the war around Yemen can see that European ships and helicopters working on this mission shot down numerous drones and missiles in the area. Are they so badly malinformed? Also: why on earth do they think shooting a few missiles will open up shipping lanes and keep ships safe? They really believe this? Yikes.
posted by UN at 7:13 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
This is how the dignity wraith do.
posted by flabdablet at 7:22 AM on March 27 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 7:22 AM on March 27 [2 favorites]
what's with their obsession with Europe
A major tenet of Republican policy is western European democracies are now our enemy. Russia and Orban's Hungary are our friends.
posted by Nelson at 8:01 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
A major tenet of Republican policy is western European democracies are now our enemy. Russia and Orban's Hungary are our friends.
posted by Nelson at 8:01 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
I finally got around to reading those chats and wow what's with their obsession with Europe?Putin wants to destroy NATO is what. That said, the US right have always looked down on Europe for their moderation compared to the worst US excesses. While American jingoists wave their flags and brag about the best, freest, most prosperous nation on Earth, the EU regularly has better intentions and better execution.
It is true that to an extent Europe has relied on the US military via NATO for defense, but that's largely a consequence of things that were not Europe's decision. Nobody made the US vastly outspend the rest of the planet combined on pork defense contracts and institutionally entrenched psychological overcompensation, or twisted our arm and forced us to prioritize global force projection as highly as we have. Those were American priorities undertaken in American interests. For America to now whine that Europe has not built a similarly corrupt military-industrial cash pipeline at the same insane scale is not exactly the great moral outrage these clowns seem to imagine.
One of the points they made while nailing themselves to their cross, as I recall, was something to the effect that 40% of European foreign trade goes through the Suez Canal, while only 2% of US trade does. You know what I haven't seen? Any significant disruption whatsoever to European trade owing to the activity of Houthis in Yemen. If 40% of European foreign trade were in serious jeopardy, you'd think it'd be making headlines. You'd think availability of foreign goods would be curtailed, or at least unpredictable. That's just not happening, even a little bit. One might get the impression that Europe was for some reason offering measured responses proportionate to the magnitude of a threat instead of waving their geopolitical naughty bits around to "send a message" about their ability to blow up whatever, whomever, whenever they like.
Just because I use a flyswatter for flies and you use a shotgun does not mean I take flies less seriously, that I am obligated to buy a shotgun to prove it, or that I need or want you to come around blasting my flies with your shotgun, especially if you're then going to whine that you ought to send me a bill for having done so anyway.
posted by gelfin at 9:51 AM on March 27 [17 favorites]
But the importance of not doing top-secret national security stuff over the same messaging app on your phone that you'd organize a barbecue on? That's something people can probably understand if you talk about it loudly enough.
In previous timelines maybe. Now the shortcut is baked in: "I support Trump, so this must be OK."
And speaking of the current timeline:
“Of course I didn’t see this loser in the group, it looked like someone else,” he said.
Nothing will be done about this, of course, but it's a total own-goal. "Any loser can fool the National Security Advisor of the United States of America, by doing literally nothing" you say? Only the best people.
posted by Rykey at 10:42 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
In previous timelines maybe. Now the shortcut is baked in: "I support Trump, so this must be OK."
And speaking of the current timeline:
“Of course I didn’t see this loser in the group, it looked like someone else,” he said.
Nothing will be done about this, of course, but it's a total own-goal. "Any loser can fool the National Security Advisor of the United States of America, by doing literally nothing" you say? Only the best people.
posted by Rykey at 10:42 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
Gabbard says Signal comes ‘pre-installed’ on government devices. I'm trying to figure out if this is an outright lie, some hairsplitting technically-true statement, or if government process has changed radically?
The article says she is referencing this CISA guidance which specifically suggests government officials use Signal to protect themselves from Chinese espionage. It even directly cites disappearing messages as one reason to use Signal. It makes no attempt to reconcile that with legal requirements or the realities of government-secured devices. I think from context the CISA advice is meant to apply to personal devices (ie, your phone at home) and not "government devices".
posted by Nelson at 11:48 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
The article says she is referencing this CISA guidance which specifically suggests government officials use Signal to protect themselves from Chinese espionage. It even directly cites disappearing messages as one reason to use Signal. It makes no attempt to reconcile that with legal requirements or the realities of government-secured devices. I think from context the CISA advice is meant to apply to personal devices (ie, your phone at home) and not "government devices".
posted by Nelson at 11:48 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
Gabbard says Signal comes ‘pre-installed’ on government devices
Government-related person here with some cyber experience, she is not surprisingly full of shit. It is possible Signal was pre-installed on a principal's phone for reasons explained well in the CISA document, but I don't think that's standard practice in most agencies.
The linked CISA guidance is good advice - no doubt people at her level are very enticing targets for any FIS - but anyone who has worked in government (or has half a brain) can read between the lines and understand that it does not preclude other guidance - it's whatever requirement is more stringent. She is lying, dumb or both - either way clearly unqualified for the job.
posted by photo guy at 12:51 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
Government-related person here with some cyber experience, she is not surprisingly full of shit. It is possible Signal was pre-installed on a principal's phone for reasons explained well in the CISA document, but I don't think that's standard practice in most agencies.
The linked CISA guidance is good advice - no doubt people at her level are very enticing targets for any FIS - but anyone who has worked in government (or has half a brain) can read between the lines and understand that it does not preclude other guidance - it's whatever requirement is more stringent. She is lying, dumb or both - either way clearly unqualified for the job.
posted by photo guy at 12:51 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
Nobody made the US vastly outspend the rest of the planet combined on pork defense contracts and institutionally entrenched psychological overcompensation, or twisted our arm and forced us to prioritize global force projection as highly as we have.
The goal NATO established in 2014 is 2% of GDP, and it wasn't until the Ukraine war that most of Europe treat it as real. As someone once put it, the best recruiter and cheerleader for NATO is Putin.
posted by pwnguin at 3:05 PM on March 27
The goal NATO established in 2014 is 2% of GDP, and it wasn't until the Ukraine war that most of Europe treat it as real. As someone once put it, the best recruiter and cheerleader for NATO is Putin.
posted by pwnguin at 3:05 PM on March 27
Signal Chat Leak Angers U.S. Military Pilots. Interesting reporting here, NYTimes talks several retired pilots to go on the record with names, and active duty pilots without names. They talk about how these leaks endanger military missions and how the subsequent failure to own up to the failure is just as distressing as the leak itself.
A retired Air Force fighter pilot, Maj. Anthony Bourke, added: “When you disclose operational security, people can get killed.” He said that “these things are not taken lightly. I have never met anybody in the military who does not know this.” ...posted by Nelson at 3:46 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
“It’s so beyond what I would expect from anyone in the military,” said Commander Kuldau, who also flew combat missions in the Middle East. “The idea that the secretary of defense, who should know better, has done this, is just mind-boggling.”
A major tenet of Republican policy is western European democracies are now our enemy. Russia and Orban's Hungary are our friends.
From their viewpoint, Europe long ago sold its (white Christian) birthright for a mess of pottage (the EU).
It always comes back to ethno-religious nationalism with this crowd.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:11 PM on March 27 [4 favorites]
From their viewpoint, Europe long ago sold its (white Christian) birthright for a mess of pottage (the EU).
It always comes back to ethno-religious nationalism with this crowd.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:11 PM on March 27 [4 favorites]
> If hegseth's password turns out to be ******* I will shit my pants laughing.
what's so funny about hegseth using ******* as his password
posted by Sperry Topsider at 8:47 AM on March 28 [4 favorites]
what's so funny about hegseth using ******* as his password
posted by Sperry Topsider at 8:47 AM on March 28 [4 favorites]
Hilary Clinton: This is Just Dumb (archive link)
"It’s not the hypocrisy that bothers me; it’s the stupidity. We’re all shocked — shocked! — that President Trump and his team don’t actually care about protecting classified information or federal record retention laws."
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:43 AM on March 28 [4 favorites]
"It’s not the hypocrisy that bothers me; it’s the stupidity. We’re all shocked — shocked! — that President Trump and his team don’t actually care about protecting classified information or federal record retention laws."
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:43 AM on March 28 [4 favorites]
what's so funny about hegseth using ******* as his password
very patriotic if anything, all those stars
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:05 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
very patriotic if anything, all those stars
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:05 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
what's so funny about hegseth using ******* as his password
I read that as a Weird Al version of an Elvis Costello song
posted by mazola at 2:01 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
I read that as a Weird Al version of an Elvis Costello song
posted by mazola at 2:01 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
:cough: Nick Lowe song :cough:
posted by downtohisturtles at 2:11 PM on March 28 [7 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 2:11 PM on March 28 [7 favorites]
please if the Dems have learned nothing else from the last 4 years -- just keep this in the news
8 days later: News coverage is sparse and mostly "How Republicans Managed to Play This Down", with occasional takes like (real headline) "The Signal chat’s big takeaway? Trump has built an effective team." (From Marc A. Thiessen at WaPo, I guess unsurprisingly.)
posted by trig at 2:57 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
8 days later: News coverage is sparse and mostly "How Republicans Managed to Play This Down", with occasional takes like (real headline) "The Signal chat’s big takeaway? Trump has built an effective team." (From Marc A. Thiessen at WaPo, I guess unsurprisingly.)
posted by trig at 2:57 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
This doesn't at all contradict your evaluation of sparseness, but to flesh out how it's not entirely done reverberating: the NYTimes today has a 'guest essay' by Susan Rice: What Happens When There’s a Real National Security Crisis?
And yesterday -- but I can't remember where I saw it -- it seemed like the story was going to continue with (googling for something on it now) Waltz’s team set up at least 20 Signal group chats for crises across the world (Politico, and I see an MSNBC article in search results, but I'm not sure this was really picked up all that widely, and now tariffs are the multi-article top news item everywhere).
posted by nobody at 6:20 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
And yesterday -- but I can't remember where I saw it -- it seemed like the story was going to continue with (googling for something on it now) Waltz’s team set up at least 20 Signal group chats for crises across the world (Politico, and I see an MSNBC article in search results, but I'm not sure this was really picked up all that widely, and now tariffs are the multi-article top news item everywhere).
posted by nobody at 6:20 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
see these assholes live in their group chats. imagine how many “oops sorry wrong chat” messages they’re posting. and imagine that it’s when they’re switching between signal and twitter.
posted by dis_integration at 6:51 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:51 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
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(2025 is stupid and I hate it.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:40 AM on March 24 [92 favorites]