Joni Mitchell on the state of the music business:
October 15, 2002 9:07 AM Subscribe
Joni Mitchell on the state of the music business:
I just think it's a cesspool. I hope it all goes down the crapper. I would never take another deal in the record business, which means I may not record again . . . But I'll be damned if I'll line their pockets.
Also, Janis Ian on the effect of the internet on music sales.
I just think it's a cesspool. I hope it all goes down the crapper. I would never take another deal in the record business, which means I may not record again . . . But I'll be damned if I'll line their pockets.
Also, Janis Ian on the effect of the internet on music sales.
I wonder how she'd be talking if her album had gone platinum
posted by Degaz at 9:21 AM on October 15, 2002
posted by Degaz at 9:21 AM on October 15, 2002
It's tragic what MTV has done to the world," opined Mitchell, who was voted the fifth greatest woman in rock 'n' roll by MTV's sister channel VH1.
Gawd I love that woman, but she can't sing on key to save her life.....Joni Mitchell: She sings between the notes.
As to the whole cesspool remark, anybody going to refute this? (I mean besides Sony executives.) And yeah, I think MTV has a whole lot to answer for.
On Preview: Don't worry Stan, with any luck you will get to be an old fart some day, and nobody under 30 will want to listen to you either.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:23 AM on October 15, 2002
Gawd I love that woman, but she can't sing on key to save her life.....Joni Mitchell: She sings between the notes.
As to the whole cesspool remark, anybody going to refute this? (I mean besides Sony executives.) And yeah, I think MTV has a whole lot to answer for.
On Preview: Don't worry Stan, with any luck you will get to be an old fart some day, and nobody under 30 will want to listen to you either.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:23 AM on October 15, 2002
Listen, grandma. The music business is no more filled with greedheads today than it was in 1968-74, when you were a delighted beneficiary. The only difference today is that your records will not sell.
And if your granddaughter is grabbing her crotch because of MTV, perhaps someone ought to grab the remote out of her hand.
And I love her music, by the way.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 9:24 AM on October 15, 2002
And if your granddaughter is grabbing her crotch because of MTV, perhaps someone ought to grab the remote out of her hand.
And I love her music, by the way.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 9:24 AM on October 15, 2002
"More to the point, the public are losing interest, and you know, you can have a number one album these days with 30,000 sales, which is really pathetic. When you think of even the 70s or the 80s, when you could sell over 100,000, and you would be coming in at number five or six." says Morrissey. Who loves joni mitchell, as for as i remember. I do not.
posted by robself at 9:25 AM on October 15, 2002
posted by robself at 9:25 AM on October 15, 2002
Sorry, got Joni and Judy confused...senior moment, doncha know.
posted by MrBaliHai at 9:30 AM on October 15, 2002
posted by MrBaliHai at 9:30 AM on October 15, 2002
I am annoyed that so many records I once owned are out of print, and the only place I could find them was Napster.
That just about says it all. If the majors would keep some of the good stuff available instead of trying to engineer the latest fad, maybe people wouldn't be so hostile to them.
What an old fart.
Right.
That's why one of the biggest musical events of the last decade consisted largely of people who were pale imitations of Joni and her contemporaries.
In holding up Bob Dylan and herself as the standard for songwriting, she has written off devotees like Sting, Alanis Morissette and Sheryl Crow.
as have most people who know anything about music. I'm not saying the abovementioned artists are without talent, but they sure as hell aren't in the same league with Dylan and Joni Mitchell.
It's not that there haven't been plenty of artists in the last few decades who are in the same league with them. Unfortunately, while they have had varying degrees of commercial success, none of these artists has reached the stratospheric heights of the three mentioned above. This is due in large part to the cluelessness of recording and broadcasting industry that Joni is decrying.
The music business is no more filled with greedheads today than it was in 1968-74,
True enough, but back then the execs at least seemed to realize that they didn't have a clue and just went on buzz and word of mouth and beacuse of that some great people got signed. These days, Joni would probably not get signed as a new artsit by a major or if she did they'd hire of teem of stylists and advisors to drain everything interesting out of her.
posted by jonmc at 9:54 AM on October 15, 2002
That just about says it all. If the majors would keep some of the good stuff available instead of trying to engineer the latest fad, maybe people wouldn't be so hostile to them.
What an old fart.
Right.
That's why one of the biggest musical events of the last decade consisted largely of people who were pale imitations of Joni and her contemporaries.
In holding up Bob Dylan and herself as the standard for songwriting, she has written off devotees like Sting, Alanis Morissette and Sheryl Crow.
as have most people who know anything about music. I'm not saying the abovementioned artists are without talent, but they sure as hell aren't in the same league with Dylan and Joni Mitchell.
It's not that there haven't been plenty of artists in the last few decades who are in the same league with them. Unfortunately, while they have had varying degrees of commercial success, none of these artists has reached the stratospheric heights of the three mentioned above. This is due in large part to the cluelessness of recording and broadcasting industry that Joni is decrying.
The music business is no more filled with greedheads today than it was in 1968-74,
True enough, but back then the execs at least seemed to realize that they didn't have a clue and just went on buzz and word of mouth and beacuse of that some great people got signed. These days, Joni would probably not get signed as a new artsit by a major or if she did they'd hire of teem of stylists and advisors to drain everything interesting out of her.
posted by jonmc at 9:54 AM on October 15, 2002
Until recently I used to bemoan the state of the music industry, about the fact that all the music today is just crap aimed at 8 year olds. Then I looked at my music collection, and realised that it has actually been the best year for new music that I can remember. Ed Harcourt, The Coral, Liars, The Polyphonic Spree to name a few, and that is without having to reach to the avant garde such as the Post Rock movement.
The music industry is not a cesspool, but the large corporations that have a hand in it are. They're massive juggernauts, unable to adapt to the changes taking place in people's tastes and new musical movements, so they work hard to ensure that people's tastes remain to their liking by targeting chain stores and the air waves with cut price singles and commercial radio friendly tunes.
My point is that rather than complaining about music today, people should make use of the alternative press/internet to find out about new bands. I've discovered a few bands from threads on Mefi alone. I've used Napster clones to trial unsigned/small label bands, that simply would not have reached me any other way, and they've made money out of me as a result (in other words - what Janis Ian said).
I'm not familiar with the work of Joni Mitchell, but she'd do well to remember that the main record labels exist to make money, not music.
posted by chill at 9:59 AM on October 15, 2002
The music industry is not a cesspool, but the large corporations that have a hand in it are. They're massive juggernauts, unable to adapt to the changes taking place in people's tastes and new musical movements, so they work hard to ensure that people's tastes remain to their liking by targeting chain stores and the air waves with cut price singles and commercial radio friendly tunes.
My point is that rather than complaining about music today, people should make use of the alternative press/internet to find out about new bands. I've discovered a few bands from threads on Mefi alone. I've used Napster clones to trial unsigned/small label bands, that simply would not have reached me any other way, and they've made money out of me as a result (in other words - what Janis Ian said).
I'm not familiar with the work of Joni Mitchell, but she'd do well to remember that the main record labels exist to make money, not music.
posted by chill at 9:59 AM on October 15, 2002
It's not suprising coming from Joni who wrote these lyrics.
posted by stbalbach at 10:01 AM on October 15, 2002
posted by stbalbach at 10:01 AM on October 15, 2002
"Free Man in Paris" is about David Geffen, by the way. That's him talking (via Joni)
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:10 AM on October 15, 2002
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:10 AM on October 15, 2002
you guys are such dorks. youll stroke your genitals even to make fun of someone like joni mitchell. go drown yourselves.
posted by Satapher at 10:19 AM on October 15, 2002
posted by Satapher at 10:19 AM on October 15, 2002
Bob Dylan
Lou Reed
Syd Barrett
Iggy Pop
Other people who dont sing "in key"
so maybe singing in key is overrated, considering, well, you know, the Velvet Underground, the Stooges, BOB DYLAN.
but hey, Josh Groban is pretty hip. He talks some jive baby.
posted by Satapher at 10:23 AM on October 15, 2002
Lou Reed
Syd Barrett
Iggy Pop
Other people who dont sing "in key"
so maybe singing in key is overrated, considering, well, you know, the Velvet Underground, the Stooges, BOB DYLAN.
but hey, Josh Groban is pretty hip. He talks some jive baby.
posted by Satapher at 10:23 AM on October 15, 2002
Yeah, you can dis Joni and think you sound kewl, but lets see you try and say the same about Dylan and watch you get your ass flamed right off of MeFi...
Sexist twerps
posted by BentPenguin at 10:26 AM on October 15, 2002
Sexist twerps
posted by BentPenguin at 10:26 AM on October 15, 2002
I wonder how she'd be talking if her album had gone platinum?
in that case she'd be indistinguishable from lars ulrich.
posted by quonsar at 10:47 AM on October 15, 2002
in that case she'd be indistinguishable from lars ulrich.
posted by quonsar at 10:47 AM on October 15, 2002
Equating Joni Mitchell, who wrote exactly one good album and has not done anything relevant in decades, with His Bobness? I gotta go lie down.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 11:00 AM on October 15, 2002
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 11:00 AM on October 15, 2002
I'm not familiar with the work of Joni Mitchell...
*Falls down, passes out*
Kay. Anyway, that Janis Ian piece is the best thing I've read about the whole RIAA debacle. Thanks for digging it up for us, it actually changed and informed some of my views. She's awesome.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 11:04 AM on October 15, 2002
*Falls down, passes out*
Kay. Anyway, that Janis Ian piece is the best thing I've read about the whole RIAA debacle. Thanks for digging it up for us, it actually changed and informed some of my views. She's awesome.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 11:04 AM on October 15, 2002
how easy it is to be principled after you've earned and earned well from your music career.
do you think that anyone would care or mind if she said that as a penniless artist?
posted by triv at 11:14 AM on October 15, 2002
do you think that anyone would care or mind if she said that as a penniless artist?
posted by triv at 11:14 AM on October 15, 2002
For the record, the credit for the Ian piece goes to sklero.
(wasn't sure if I should attribute it . . . smells like a self post.)
posted by mikrophon at 11:16 AM on October 15, 2002
(wasn't sure if I should attribute it . . . smells like a self post.)
posted by mikrophon at 11:16 AM on October 15, 2002
do you think that anyone would care or mind if she said that as a penniless artist?
Of course not, but that's kind of the point, isn't it? The fact is, a well respected song writer who has had great success working within the system is saying that she has had enough. If I said this, or you, or Ian MacKaye, it wouldn't have the same impact that it does coming from a figure like Mitchell.
posted by mikrophon at 11:23 AM on October 15, 2002
Of course not, but that's kind of the point, isn't it? The fact is, a well respected song writer who has had great success working within the system is saying that she has had enough. If I said this, or you, or Ian MacKaye, it wouldn't have the same impact that it does coming from a figure like Mitchell.
posted by mikrophon at 11:23 AM on October 15, 2002
but that's my point. it's a cesspool only after she's made enough money to renouce the business that has, without doubt, allowed her to be rich and principled.
it's sour grapes on my part, as a struggling artist.
posted by triv at 11:32 AM on October 15, 2002
it's sour grapes on my part, as a struggling artist.
posted by triv at 11:32 AM on October 15, 2002
it's a cesspool only after she's made enough money to renouce the business that has, without doubt, allowed her to be rich and principled.
Right, I agree, but it would be one thing if she were saying, "The system is fucked, and I'll tell you all about it on my new record, coming soon on Epic," like some people I could name, quite another to say, "the system is fucked, and I won't be a part of it any more."
posted by mikrophon at 11:51 AM on October 15, 2002
Right, I agree, but it would be one thing if she were saying, "The system is fucked, and I'll tell you all about it on my new record, coming soon on Epic," like some people I could name, quite another to say, "the system is fucked, and I won't be a part of it any more."
posted by mikrophon at 11:51 AM on October 15, 2002
i have several joni mitchell records, all of which i enjoy, so i must veto the statement that she only has made "one good record"
and Bob Dylan loves Jesus now.
posted by Satapher at 11:55 AM on October 15, 2002
and Bob Dylan loves Jesus now.
posted by Satapher at 11:55 AM on October 15, 2002
Ian's one little comment about "not counting the people who come to my shows" sums it all up for me. Music execs make money off of album sales. Artists make money off of touring. What better way to get someone to come see you live then by dispersing your music gratis over the Internet and getting the word out that you deserve a listen? I have personally been to see at least 4 bands live that i "discovered" thanks to Napster. Not to mention the $$ I spent in record stores to replace the crappy Napster-quality of the downlaods.
posted by archimago at 11:57 AM on October 15, 2002
posted by archimago at 11:57 AM on October 15, 2002
joni's made some great music. she's also batshit out of her mind. you can find a lot of similar links and comments over at (notable joni fan) prince's site.
posted by anildash at 12:03 PM on October 15, 2002
posted by anildash at 12:03 PM on October 15, 2002
Equating Joni Mitchell, who wrote exactly one good album and has not done anything relevant in decades, with His Bobness?
Excuse you. I've got at least 7 good Joni Mitchell albums at home, at least 5 of which I'd classify as great. As for equating her with Dylan? That was the common sentiment back in her heyday. Sure she got less popular to pop music listeners toward the end of the 70's, but during that time she was exploring jazz and world music influences before folks like Paul Simon and Sting made that all the rage in the '80s.
(In case anyone's interested: the great albums are "Blue," "Court and Spark," "Hejira," "Hissing of Summer Lawns," and "Turbulent Indigo.")
posted by dnash at 12:03 PM on October 15, 2002
Excuse you. I've got at least 7 good Joni Mitchell albums at home, at least 5 of which I'd classify as great. As for equating her with Dylan? That was the common sentiment back in her heyday. Sure she got less popular to pop music listeners toward the end of the 70's, but during that time she was exploring jazz and world music influences before folks like Paul Simon and Sting made that all the rage in the '80s.
(In case anyone's interested: the great albums are "Blue," "Court and Spark," "Hejira," "Hissing of Summer Lawns," and "Turbulent Indigo.")
posted by dnash at 12:03 PM on October 15, 2002
Can anyone explain to me why Joni claims to be taking the high road and vows to never "line their pockets" right after signing a brand new deal???
posted by Reggie452 at 1:57 PM on October 15, 2002
posted by Reggie452 at 1:57 PM on October 15, 2002
Can anyone explain to me why Joni claims to be taking the high road and vows to never "line their pockets" right after signing a brand new deal???
Here's my guess, based on nothing but speculation: Mitchell completed work on an album, but had no distribution for it. She signed a deal with Nonesuch, but had such a bad experience in the process of getting the album released that she said, "well, I'll never do that again!"
It may be that she's just a bitter old crank. Who knows. Still, she makes some good points.
posted by mikrophon at 2:19 PM on October 15, 2002
Here's my guess, based on nothing but speculation: Mitchell completed work on an album, but had no distribution for it. She signed a deal with Nonesuch, but had such a bad experience in the process of getting the album released that she said, "well, I'll never do that again!"
It may be that she's just a bitter old crank. Who knows. Still, she makes some good points.
posted by mikrophon at 2:19 PM on October 15, 2002
I think it's a big mistake to mix her message (that major record labels and their executives are greedy and corrupt) with your opinion of her music.
I don't get the sarcastic tone of the Reuters article, but the writer obviously isn't aware that there's a difference between Reprise Records and Nonesuch. If anyone remembers, Wilco also left Reprise (on bad terms) and got signed to Nonesuch. They're both AOL/Time-Warner companies, but Nonesuch is known for being more experimentally-minded and artist-friendly. At any rate, is anything that she's saying controversial or surprising? I don't understand why everyone here is singling her out in her beliefs, since they seem to be shared by more than a few established (and many more indie) artists.
As for her music, I think several people here are ill-informed. All Music Guide says she may be "the most important and influential female recording artist of the late 20th century." There's a reason her songs have been covered by 861 different artists. Try her Salon.com profile or the AMG biography for a primer. (And I'd also count For the Roses, Ladies of the Canyon, Clouds, and her self-titled debut as essential and truly great albums.)
posted by waxpancake at 3:11 PM on October 15, 2002
I don't get the sarcastic tone of the Reuters article, but the writer obviously isn't aware that there's a difference between Reprise Records and Nonesuch. If anyone remembers, Wilco also left Reprise (on bad terms) and got signed to Nonesuch. They're both AOL/Time-Warner companies, but Nonesuch is known for being more experimentally-minded and artist-friendly. At any rate, is anything that she's saying controversial or surprising? I don't understand why everyone here is singling her out in her beliefs, since they seem to be shared by more than a few established (and many more indie) artists.
As for her music, I think several people here are ill-informed. All Music Guide says she may be "the most important and influential female recording artist of the late 20th century." There's a reason her songs have been covered by 861 different artists. Try her Salon.com profile or the AMG biography for a primer. (And I'd also count For the Roses, Ladies of the Canyon, Clouds, and her self-titled debut as essential and truly great albums.)
posted by waxpancake at 3:11 PM on October 15, 2002
waxy--you forgot Blue, dude. "River" still gives me chills.
posted by jonmc at 3:15 PM on October 15, 2002
posted by jonmc at 3:15 PM on October 15, 2002
jonmc: I was supplementing dnash's list of essential Joni Mitchell albums. Blue, Court and Spark, Hejira, and Hissing of Summer Lawns are also in my list. (I didn't think Turbulent Indigo was nearly as good.)
posted by waxpancake at 4:47 PM on October 15, 2002
posted by waxpancake at 4:47 PM on October 15, 2002
Who the hell is Janis Ian?
Janis Ian:
"...let me remind you of something: the music industry had exactly the same response to the advent of reel-to-reel home tape recorders, cassettes, DATs, minidiscs, VHS, BETA, music videos ("Why buy the record when you can tape it?"), MTV, and a host of other technological advances designed to make the consumer's life easier and better. I know because I was there."
Exactly. I like that. She can say all of this because she was there way before most of us. She has seen so many technological changes in the industry - most of us have seen what, three: CDs, MTV, Napster? I personally remember my favorite band talking about how they didn't want to make music videos because they were musician - not actors or directors.
as for me, I am downloading a song from her right now, just to see.
posted by hotdoughnutsnow at 5:11 PM on October 15, 2002
Janis Ian:
"...let me remind you of something: the music industry had exactly the same response to the advent of reel-to-reel home tape recorders, cassettes, DATs, minidiscs, VHS, BETA, music videos ("Why buy the record when you can tape it?"), MTV, and a host of other technological advances designed to make the consumer's life easier and better. I know because I was there."
Exactly. I like that. She can say all of this because she was there way before most of us. She has seen so many technological changes in the industry - most of us have seen what, three: CDs, MTV, Napster? I personally remember my favorite band talking about how they didn't want to make music videos because they were musician - not actors or directors.
as for me, I am downloading a song from her right now, just to see.
posted by hotdoughnutsnow at 5:11 PM on October 15, 2002
hotdoughnutsnow--hope it's either "Society's Child"(good sociopolitical-angst folkie-Shangri-La's hybrid) or "At Seventeen" (better than average singer/songwriter stuff)
posted by jonmc at 5:57 PM on October 15, 2002
posted by jonmc at 5:57 PM on October 15, 2002
you mefi fucks are such debasers.
you dont want to think, you dont want to ponder, you dont want to compare or give a second thought.
if you can derail any single aspect of anything having doing with anything about anything, that is religiously more important than say : learning something new, understanding another person's views, or perhaps expanding your copy cat hip magazine reading pseudo intellects.
do you think that anyone would care or mind if she said that as a penniless artist?
hahaha. jesus christ.
posted by Satapher at 9:16 PM on October 15, 2002
you dont want to think, you dont want to ponder, you dont want to compare or give a second thought.
if you can derail any single aspect of anything having doing with anything about anything, that is religiously more important than say : learning something new, understanding another person's views, or perhaps expanding your copy cat hip magazine reading pseudo intellects.
do you think that anyone would care or mind if she said that as a penniless artist?
hahaha. jesus christ.
posted by Satapher at 9:16 PM on October 15, 2002
Yeah. I hate it when people try to derail threads. It makes me so mad, I could go kill some muslims. I mean, W.T.F.S.?
posted by cortex at 9:49 PM on October 15, 2002
posted by cortex at 9:49 PM on October 15, 2002
Easy now, Satapher has been a "mefi fuck" a lot longer than most of us.
posted by whatnot at 7:57 AM on October 16, 2002
posted by whatnot at 7:57 AM on October 16, 2002
Waxpancake - I actually don't yet have "Clouds," "For the Roses," or the eponymous debut, and I had almost typed in "Ladies of the Canyon" to my list earlier, but went with "Summer Lawns" instead, mostly cuz I personally prefer her mid/late '70s jazz-influenced stuff. "Hejira" is probably my favorite.
posted by dnash at 11:15 AM on October 16, 2002
posted by dnash at 11:15 AM on October 16, 2002
That's a helluva ad hominem, Satapher. Care to back that up?
posted by mikrophon at 11:58 AM on October 16, 2002
posted by mikrophon at 11:58 AM on October 16, 2002
It's also not even a word. It's a song title, but not an English word.
posted by websavvy at 6:16 PM on October 21, 2002
posted by websavvy at 6:16 PM on October 21, 2002
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posted by mikrophon at 9:13 AM on October 15, 2002