Transgender Athletes: The Fencing Issue
April 15, 2025 9:45 AM Subscribe
On the weekend of March 29, 2025, the Cherry Blossom Regional Open Circuit, a fencing tournament that is a qualifier for the Summer Nationals, was held at the University of Maryland. This year's would be very different. In a match between a Wagner College fencer named Red Sullivan, and a Philadelphia fencer named Stephanie Turner, Turner chose to take a knee and be disqualified from the tournament, specifically because Sullivan is a transgender woman.
According to the US Fencing (the body that handles the rules and judgements in the US) policies on Transgender and Nonbinary Policy:
Turner told Fox News, "It will probably, at least for a moment, destroy my life. I don't think that it's going to be easy for me from now on going to fencing tournaments. I don't think it's going to be easy for me at practice," Turner said. "It's very hard for me to do this." She also indicated that the issue of trans inclusion in sports has changed her political views.transphobia women’s sports.” The brand, led by its founder Jennifer Sey, awarded the fencer $5,000, a Courage Wins Award, and admittance into a leadership program.
Other commentary:"My entire life is political."
According to the US Fencing (the body that handles the rules and judgements in the US) policies on Transgender and Nonbinary Policy:
Within our divisions, USA Fencing will not discriminate on the basis of gender identity, regardless of sex assigned at birth, or any other form of gender expression for participation in any division. As such, athletes will be permitted to participate in USA Fencing-sanctioned events in a manner consistent with their gender identity/ expression, regardless of the gender associated with the sex they were assigned at birth in accordance with the guidelines listed below.The guidelines proceed to define precisely what needs to be done for each group in tournaments. The rules also state that no fencer is permitted to refuse competition against another fencer, who has been properly entered, for any reason.
Turner told Fox News, "It will probably, at least for a moment, destroy my life. I don't think that it's going to be easy for me from now on going to fencing tournaments. I don't think it's going to be easy for me at practice," Turner said. "It's very hard for me to do this." She also indicated that the issue of trans inclusion in sports has changed her political views.
"I voted red down the ticket this year," Turner said. "It was like waking up to the lies of the mainstream media… Just to watch so many of my friends have this glassy-eyed look while just defending this policy because their brains can not manage the possibility that their party or their position has been wrong on this, and perhaps this isn't a civil rights movement, and they have been misled."She also said:
"As a woman fencing in a women's tournament, I do not believe men should fence in my category. I was not aware Mr. Sullivan was registered until the night before the tournament. I prayed about it and decided if Mr. Sullivan and I were to fence face-to-face, then I would peaceably protest by taking a knee," Turner said, misgendering Sullivan.Following her stance at the Maryland tournament, Turner was recognized by the controversial anti-trans brand XX-XY Athletics, which calls itself “the only athletic brand that stands up for
“I want to thank God for trusting me with this mission to fight for female-exclusive sports and putting me in a place to effectively protest," Turner added.
Other commentary:
- “This is what happens when female athletes protest! Anyone here still thinks this is fair??? I am fuming… and shame on @USAFencing, shame on you for doing this. How dare you throw women under the gender bullshit bus!!!” Martina Navratilova said on X.
- Attorney General and charged felon Ken Paxton of Texas has announced an investigation into US Fencing for "violating state law", apparently Section 33.0834 of the Texas Education Code, which prohibits a student from competing in interscholastic athletic competitions designated for the opposite biological sex, subject to the specific exception regarding female students competing in interscholastic athletic competitions designated for male students if a corresponding interscholastic athletic competition for female students is not offered or available
- On February 2, the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) changed its participation policy to limit competition in women’s sports to student-athletes assigned female at birth. The NCAA made its announcement after the U.S. Department of Education said it would launch investigations into several colleges over “apparent Title IX violations” related to transgender women playing women’s sports.
- Extremely good person John Oliver's show Last Week Tonight dedicated the April 6 main story to trans athletes, including this story.
It will probably, at least for a moment, destroy my life.
I hope so. To hell with her.
posted by obfuscation at 9:54 AM on April 15 [37 favorites]
I hope so. To hell with her.
posted by obfuscation at 9:54 AM on April 15 [37 favorites]
"I prayed about it" - to which deity?
posted by tommasz at 9:55 AM on April 15 [15 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 9:55 AM on April 15 [15 favorites]
Whatever (if any) arguments there are to be made for excluding trans women from women’s sports, Stephanie Turner is not the person I want to hear them from.
posted by Lemkin at 9:57 AM on April 15 [9 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 9:57 AM on April 15 [9 favorites]
Gotta say, I had a lot of crazy squares on my MAGA bingo card for 2025, but "The right does a sudden and decisive about-face regarding their position on kneeling athletes" wasn't one of them.
(I shouldn't be too surprised, though. OF COURSE when the athlete in question is of the proper ideology and race, the rules are different.)
posted by Rykey at 9:57 AM on April 15 [36 favorites]
(I shouldn't be too surprised, though. OF COURSE when the athlete in question is of the proper ideology and race, the rules are different.)
posted by Rykey at 9:57 AM on April 15 [36 favorites]
It'll destroy my life until I, too, can monetize my experience into membership in the right wing grift.
posted by phunniemee at 9:59 AM on April 15 [55 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 9:59 AM on April 15 [55 favorites]
I can't remember if I just saw this in an Instagram reel or on John Oliver, but the best argument about how this isn't a problem of mEeEnNnN in women's sports was actually made by the right wing media themselves.
Enter Ben Shapiro's film Lady Ballers:
posted by phunniemee at 10:09 AM on April 15 [61 favorites]
Enter Ben Shapiro's film Lady Ballers:
The premise of Lady Ballers originated as a potential documentary in which men would pretend to be transgender and attempt to integrate women's sports, but The Daily Wire changed the concept to a fictional comedy after failing to find any men who would agree to undergo the necessary requirements for trans women to participate on women's teams.It's just Not A Thing, to the degree that they literally could not pay even the people who had a political motivation to do it, to do it.
posted by phunniemee at 10:09 AM on April 15 [61 favorites]
Stephanie Turner competed against multiple men in a coed tournament just a week before refusing to compete against Red Sullivan.
posted by Redstart at 10:15 AM on April 15 [83 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 10:15 AM on April 15 [83 favorites]
As a lifelong Democrat ... "I voted red down the ticket this year," Turner said."I'm okay with ending the American experiment, possibly for the rest of my life, as long as I get to make a stink about trans women in my little niche."
"I'm okay with the establishment of secret police, secret police kidnappings, and concentration camps, as long as I get to make a stink about trans women in my little niche."
"I'm okay with destroying the social safety net that my own parents have paid into all their lives, and may soon be counting on, as long as I get to make a stink about trans women in my little niche."
I guess this is how single-issue voters always are. I guess this is why the worst people in the world court those voters.
posted by Western Infidels at 10:18 AM on April 15 [71 favorites]
Last Week Tonight did a full segment on this (mentioned above) that's well worth a watch.
posted by Acey at 10:19 AM on April 15 [10 favorites]
posted by Acey at 10:19 AM on April 15 [10 favorites]
"But she told Sullivan: “I’m sorry, I have much love and respect for you, but I will not fence you."
Bless your heart.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:24 AM on April 15 [16 favorites]
Bless your heart.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:24 AM on April 15 [16 favorites]
I feel so fucking sick to my stomach every time I hear about these assholes. How dare they act like their sporting lives are so important as to deny the humanity of another human being. And then defer to a christian god as if that gives you a pass.
It's pathetic.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:26 AM on April 15 [27 favorites]
It's pathetic.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:26 AM on April 15 [27 favorites]
It will probably, at least for a moment, destroy my life.
The brand, led by its founder Jennifer Sey, awarded the fencer $5,000, a Courage Wins Award, and admittance into a leadership program.
This is a definition of 'destroy' with which I am not familiar.
posted by Frayed Knot at 10:26 AM on April 15 [37 favorites]
The brand, led by its founder Jennifer Sey, awarded the fencer $5,000, a Courage Wins Award, and admittance into a leadership program.
This is a definition of 'destroy' with which I am not familiar.
posted by Frayed Knot at 10:26 AM on April 15 [37 favorites]
"I prayed about it" - to which deity?
It was either Erebos, personification of darkness or Ira, Roman god of hate.
Stupid hag. I could have had 1/1000th of empathy for her actually being afraid to face a stronger opponent with more reach due to body proportion and losing. But having competed with men the week before some of who were no doubt taller, stronger, and perhaps more talented than Sullivan, she was just being a bitch.
Being totally clueless about the sport, I'm assuming that her taking the knee was a political stunt and not an actual gesture of formal resignation in fencing? Ooooh, look at me!
posted by BlueHorse at 10:35 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]
It was either Erebos, personification of darkness or Ira, Roman god of hate.
Stupid hag. I could have had 1/1000th of empathy for her actually being afraid to face a stronger opponent with more reach due to body proportion and losing. But having competed with men the week before some of who were no doubt taller, stronger, and perhaps more talented than Sullivan, she was just being a bitch.
Being totally clueless about the sport, I'm assuming that her taking the knee was a political stunt and not an actual gesture of formal resignation in fencing? Ooooh, look at me!
posted by BlueHorse at 10:35 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]
I prayed about it... I want to thank God for trusting me...
First off... wow to that sequence
Second, the city in which I live had a council meeting about a month ago now, and during it they voted to establish a Transgender Day of Visibility. Many in the public comment period approached the podium to voice their support. There was one outlier who spatted the usual vile, who was followed by a fine elder of a gentleman. That gentleman started by quipping something like "that's a tough act to follow", and then remarked "if God didn't like trans people, why do they keep creating them?" to broad chuckles among attendees
posted by JoeXIII007 at 10:41 AM on April 15 [21 favorites]
First off... wow to that sequence
Second, the city in which I live had a council meeting about a month ago now, and during it they voted to establish a Transgender Day of Visibility. Many in the public comment period approached the podium to voice their support. There was one outlier who spatted the usual vile, who was followed by a fine elder of a gentleman. That gentleman started by quipping something like "that's a tough act to follow", and then remarked "if God didn't like trans people, why do they keep creating them?" to broad chuckles among attendees
posted by JoeXIII007 at 10:41 AM on April 15 [21 favorites]
Yeah, this was completely about Red being Trans, and not about her being a "man."
posted by Spike Glee at 10:43 AM on April 15 [8 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 10:43 AM on April 15 [8 favorites]
It's interesting how people who perform these stunts nearly always have mediocre or middling records. I don't know enough about fencing to say whether Turner is top-tier, but a glance at fencingtracker statistics suggests not, which makes me think this is attention-seeking behavior.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:45 AM on April 15 [18 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:45 AM on April 15 [18 favorites]
The brand, led by its founder Jennifer Sey, awarded the fencer $5,000, a Courage Wins Award, and admittance into a leadership program
Indeed.
I'm not sure that I, personally, would sell myself so cheap - she should have held out for at least enough to pay off her loans and maybe a book deal.
posted by Frowner at 10:47 AM on April 15 [6 favorites]
Indeed.
I'm not sure that I, personally, would sell myself so cheap - she should have held out for at least enough to pay off her loans and maybe a book deal.
posted by Frowner at 10:47 AM on April 15 [6 favorites]
"But she told Sullivan: “I’m sorry, I have much love and respect for you, but I will not fence you."
"I have so much respect for you that I will ignore what gender you are and repeatedly call you a man."
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:49 AM on April 15 [27 favorites]
"I have so much respect for you that I will ignore what gender you are and repeatedly call you a man."
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:49 AM on April 15 [27 favorites]
It's interesting how people who perform these stunts nearly always have mediocre or middling records.
As an academic who by most measures would be considered pretty successful, the one thing I've picked up on when I can bear to read the hacks the right wing puts up as "philosophers" is how very very many of them are failed academics. Academia is chock-full o'bullshit and bad people, but it does do a pretty effective job at filtering out the worst bullshitters and losers. Jordan Peterson is at the top of the list, here, but there are many others, like Yarvin/Moldbug, where it's not quite so obvious that they couldn't hack it in academia and turned to grift.
In their defence, the grift is real lucrative. Sometimes I think about how much money I could make becoming a right-wing pundit, but I'd have to put up with so many unbearable people to make it work.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:55 AM on April 15 [17 favorites]
As an academic who by most measures would be considered pretty successful, the one thing I've picked up on when I can bear to read the hacks the right wing puts up as "philosophers" is how very very many of them are failed academics. Academia is chock-full o'bullshit and bad people, but it does do a pretty effective job at filtering out the worst bullshitters and losers. Jordan Peterson is at the top of the list, here, but there are many others, like Yarvin/Moldbug, where it's not quite so obvious that they couldn't hack it in academia and turned to grift.
In their defence, the grift is real lucrative. Sometimes I think about how much money I could make becoming a right-wing pundit, but I'd have to put up with so many unbearable people to make it work.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:55 AM on April 15 [17 favorites]
> I guess this is how single-issue voters always are. I guess this is why the worst people in the world court those voters.
this is how transphobes are. this is purely transphobia. it is a worm that eats your brain until it takes over.
posted by secret about box at 10:56 AM on April 15 [13 favorites]
this is how transphobes are. this is purely transphobia. it is a worm that eats your brain until it takes over.
posted by secret about box at 10:56 AM on April 15 [13 favorites]
secret about box: I wrote this recently on Bsky about Jesse Singal, and I'm pretty proud of it:
"Transphobia like his, and general bigotry, is like letting syphilis get to the tertiary stage: the brain is a tattered remnant of what it once was, cognitive function is a sweet dream, and rational thought does not exist."
posted by mephron at 11:03 AM on April 15 [25 favorites]
"Transphobia like his, and general bigotry, is like letting syphilis get to the tertiary stage: the brain is a tattered remnant of what it once was, cognitive function is a sweet dream, and rational thought does not exist."
posted by mephron at 11:03 AM on April 15 [25 favorites]
In addition to all of the screwed up things already listed, something that always nags me about this incident and many others is who outed the person as trans to begin with? It seems to me that that is part of a person’s medical history and is really nobody’s business. I know that the answer to that can be complicated and have many layers, but in my life I neither know nor care what a person’s history regarding their gender identity is when I am talking to them. It seems like those brave souls standing up for the ever oppressed cisgender community (/s) are sometimes going out of their way to find something to whine about.
posted by TedW at 11:11 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]
posted by TedW at 11:11 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Stephanie Turner competed against multiple men in a coed tournament just a week before refusing to compete against Red Sullivan.
Okay, so she's a grifting liar. Every headline worth a damn should read, "co-ed fencer refuses to compete against trans athlete"
posted by Slackermagee at 11:12 AM on April 15 [26 favorites]
Okay, so she's a grifting liar. Every headline worth a damn should read, "co-ed fencer refuses to compete against trans athlete"
posted by Slackermagee at 11:12 AM on April 15 [26 favorites]
It's all just an elaborate audition for Fox News sports commentator, or possibly a second-tier Trump cabinet official for something completely unrelated to sports
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 11:28 AM on April 15 [6 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 11:28 AM on April 15 [6 favorites]
who outed the person as trans to begin with?
From the article Redstart linked to above:
"Turner gave an interview on America Reports, where she spoke about her forfeit. Despite her history of coed competition, Turner told co-host John Roberts, “I am a woman, and I have an athletic disadvantage to men, so I compete in the women's division, which is where I rightfully am." Turner added that she knew Sullivan was trans because she recognized the name from Reduxx, an outlet that had published a “hit piece” on the athlete's identity. [Fox News, America Reports, 4/3/25; Rolling Stone, 4/12/25]"
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:39 AM on April 15 [8 favorites]
From the article Redstart linked to above:
"Turner gave an interview on America Reports, where she spoke about her forfeit. Despite her history of coed competition, Turner told co-host John Roberts, “I am a woman, and I have an athletic disadvantage to men, so I compete in the women's division, which is where I rightfully am." Turner added that she knew Sullivan was trans because she recognized the name from Reduxx, an outlet that had published a “hit piece” on the athlete's identity. [Fox News, America Reports, 4/3/25; Rolling Stone, 4/12/25]"
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:39 AM on April 15 [8 favorites]
I've never heard of Reduxx before—it kind of sounds like a weight loss pill you would buy in a gas station—but its homepage is literally nothing but hit pieces on trans people. Looks like a great news source.
posted by smelendez at 11:45 AM on April 15 [6 favorites]
posted by smelendez at 11:45 AM on April 15 [6 favorites]
I posted that last comment and then remembered I have a more relevant one. I'm in three different baseball leagues, because there's almost nothing I like better than playing baseball. All three leagues are co-ed and though they have slightly different rules, they all share that there have to be three women playing on the field at any given time. Last year, one of the guys on another team went M --> F transition. What really struck me was that absolutely nobody voiced a complaint when that person was one of the three women on the field: nobody said hey hang on that person isn't technically a woman, you have to put three "real" women on the field or whatever. Now, this is intown big-city dark blue territory, but at the same time, baseball is like a lot of other halfway-serious sports leagues where there's a fair number of politically conservative people involved. But nobody has yet to say anything about this, not within the earshot of any of the people I know in these leagues. It's clear that nobody really cares enough to make an issue of it.
What this tells me is what a political stunt this fencing story is: that she's the one person who's making a fuss and everyone else is thinking oh please shut the fuck up. The right wing has invested so much money in making trans people the bugaboo, and they can't make even one of ~100 Baseball-Playin' Dudes say anything about it.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:49 AM on April 15 [28 favorites]
What this tells me is what a political stunt this fencing story is: that she's the one person who's making a fuss and everyone else is thinking oh please shut the fuck up. The right wing has invested so much money in making trans people the bugaboo, and they can't make even one of ~100 Baseball-Playin' Dudes say anything about it.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:49 AM on April 15 [28 favorites]
agree -- this is how you audition for the gender storm troopers
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:51 AM on April 15 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:51 AM on April 15 [3 favorites]
stronger opponent with more reach due to body proportion
Sorry to leap on this, but I'm gonna a bit, because every time we give a millimeter, they take a kilometer. First, do we know that her opponent was 1) stronger or 2) had more reach? Second, does it matter? She presumably faces stronger opponents with longer reach all the time - that's called competition.
Finally, the big issue with all of this is that it doesn't matter if trans women have slight advantages in very select, carefully chosen physical characteristics - we're either women or we're not. Take your pick; let us know. Because every exclusion piles on to the othering going on.
This issue reaches far, far beyond whether elite trans women get to compete; it makes all the rest of us feel unaccepted and invalidated. Women like me, whose very identity is tied up in our belief that our accomplishments as women - whether on a Strava ride time, on an Aikido mat, in the workplace, as artists - are valid accomplishments of women.
Worse yet, it does the same to trans girls out there. All of them, not just the athletes.
Save your sympathy. No cis woman athlete complaining about trans athletes being involved deserves it. They are excluding us, to one extent or another, if they do.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 11:51 AM on April 15 [45 favorites]
Sorry to leap on this, but I'm gonna a bit, because every time we give a millimeter, they take a kilometer. First, do we know that her opponent was 1) stronger or 2) had more reach? Second, does it matter? She presumably faces stronger opponents with longer reach all the time - that's called competition.
Finally, the big issue with all of this is that it doesn't matter if trans women have slight advantages in very select, carefully chosen physical characteristics - we're either women or we're not. Take your pick; let us know. Because every exclusion piles on to the othering going on.
This issue reaches far, far beyond whether elite trans women get to compete; it makes all the rest of us feel unaccepted and invalidated. Women like me, whose very identity is tied up in our belief that our accomplishments as women - whether on a Strava ride time, on an Aikido mat, in the workplace, as artists - are valid accomplishments of women.
Worse yet, it does the same to trans girls out there. All of them, not just the athletes.
Save your sympathy. No cis woman athlete complaining about trans athletes being involved deserves it. They are excluding us, to one extent or another, if they do.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 11:51 AM on April 15 [45 favorites]
Reduxx your unapologetically pro-woman, pro-child safeguarding source of news and commentary.
They have a very clever logo that mixes the shorthand for prescription (rx) and xx (gender).
My day has been made worse by seeing this website and I don’t ever have to see it again.
posted by ashbury at 11:53 AM on April 15 [4 favorites]
They have a very clever logo that mixes the shorthand for prescription (rx) and xx (gender).
My day has been made worse by seeing this website and I don’t ever have to see it again.
posted by ashbury at 11:53 AM on April 15 [4 favorites]
"I prayed about it" - to which deity?
Satan laughed and spread his wings.
posted by NoMich at 11:54 AM on April 15 [4 favorites]
Satan laughed and spread his wings.
posted by NoMich at 11:54 AM on April 15 [4 favorites]
Finally, the big issue with all of this is that it doesn't matter if trans women have slight advantages in very select, carefully chosen physical characteristics - we're either women or we're not.
Important! Yes!
Minor in comparison but also: Athletes are FREQUENTLY quite different from non-athletes! Their bodies give them advantages in sport all the time! It's never a perfectly fair fight, is it? Hello? It's weird how trans "concerns" always ignores this shit, like all athletes are of one size and strength and paired up evenly. They're not.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:54 AM on April 15 [20 favorites]
Important! Yes!
Minor in comparison but also: Athletes are FREQUENTLY quite different from non-athletes! Their bodies give them advantages in sport all the time! It's never a perfectly fair fight, is it? Hello? It's weird how trans "concerns" always ignores this shit, like all athletes are of one size and strength and paired up evenly. They're not.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:54 AM on April 15 [20 favorites]
Related note, WaPo: A trans girl was banned from her track team. Now she’s competing with the boys.
After President Donald Trump banned transgender girls from competing in girls’ sports, a Virginia high-schooler joined the boys’ team.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:57 AM on April 15 [19 favorites]
After President Donald Trump banned transgender girls from competing in girls’ sports, a Virginia high-schooler joined the boys’ team.
She didn’t think she had an advantage against the girls. She certainly wouldn’t have one over the boys, most of whom are bigger than she is. In fact, she knew it would be harder. The boys’ discus weighs about 3.5 pounds, almost a pound heavier than that of the girls. The boys’ shot is 12 pounds, and the girls’ is about 8.It's interesting how if you move a trans girl onto the boys team, she's at a disadvantage.
Forty-six feet and 10 inches.
It was one of her farthest throws yet — and the shortest in the boys’ competition that day.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:57 AM on April 15 [19 favorites]
As a fencer (disclaimer: I've only been an epeeist for about 2 years, and I only compete in small local tournaments), I disagree hard with Turner's claim that as a cis woman she has an athletic disadvantage, automatically, to men in this sport.
Height can be more of an advantage, in my experience, than physical strength in fencing; and still, height takes a backseat to skill. Moreover, there are entire schools of thought and practice that teach specific techniques to overcome a significant height advantage enjoyed by one's opponents. There are also tactics whose aim is to negate any strength advantage an opponent might have. Absence of blade, for example: that is, fencing in such a way that you never allow an opponent to beat or hard parry your weapon.
From the photo in that first article, it seems to me that Turner is a foilist. Foil, with its right of way rules (way too complex to get into here), in particular seems to me to greatly lessen advantages conferred by height and strength. If you have right of way, doesn't matter if your opponent can bench press an F-150 and has a 120-inch reach, you're getting the point when the ref calls "Halt!" And how do you gain right of way in an exchange? Skill.
Consequently, I've seen plenty of mixed foil events where the top finishers included women of all ages. I was at mixed epee event a couple of months ago where the 3rd place finisher was a tiny young woman in her teens who faced several significantly taller/stronger opponents (including yours truly!) and whooped plenty of ass (including yours truly!) en route to her podium finish.
So, yeah, gonna call bullshit/grift attempt on Turner here.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:09 PM on April 15 [48 favorites]
Height can be more of an advantage, in my experience, than physical strength in fencing; and still, height takes a backseat to skill. Moreover, there are entire schools of thought and practice that teach specific techniques to overcome a significant height advantage enjoyed by one's opponents. There are also tactics whose aim is to negate any strength advantage an opponent might have. Absence of blade, for example: that is, fencing in such a way that you never allow an opponent to beat or hard parry your weapon.
From the photo in that first article, it seems to me that Turner is a foilist. Foil, with its right of way rules (way too complex to get into here), in particular seems to me to greatly lessen advantages conferred by height and strength. If you have right of way, doesn't matter if your opponent can bench press an F-150 and has a 120-inch reach, you're getting the point when the ref calls "Halt!" And how do you gain right of way in an exchange? Skill.
Consequently, I've seen plenty of mixed foil events where the top finishers included women of all ages. I was at mixed epee event a couple of months ago where the 3rd place finisher was a tiny young woman in her teens who faced several significantly taller/stronger opponents (including yours truly!) and whooped plenty of ass (including yours truly!) en route to her podium finish.
So, yeah, gonna call bullshit/grift attempt on Turner here.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:09 PM on April 15 [48 favorites]
> Last year, one of the guys on another team went M --> F transition. What really struck me was that absolutely nobody voiced a complaint when that person was one of the three women on the field
I play in co-ed Ultimate and made this move myself once I was on HRT for long enough / it got hard to keep up with the men.
It's been mostly fine with the odd fraught moment ("whoa wait you have too many guys on the field") that has receded as I've started to pass more at a distance. In three years I've had one chud give me a hard time about it, huffing that it was unfair to the women.
First and for all this was in the lowest skill division in a beer league for adults. There is no meaningful competition. Secondly, I towered over the guy.
I asked him if it was fair for me to play against him, considering I have a natural advantage. Maybe we should segregate people by height too?
He said that that's not the same thing. Of course. Their sense of fairness is very particular.
posted by pmv at 12:14 PM on April 15 [21 favorites]
I play in co-ed Ultimate and made this move myself once I was on HRT for long enough / it got hard to keep up with the men.
It's been mostly fine with the odd fraught moment ("whoa wait you have too many guys on the field") that has receded as I've started to pass more at a distance. In three years I've had one chud give me a hard time about it, huffing that it was unfair to the women.
First and for all this was in the lowest skill division in a beer league for adults. There is no meaningful competition. Secondly, I towered over the guy.
I asked him if it was fair for me to play against him, considering I have a natural advantage. Maybe we should segregate people by height too?
He said that that's not the same thing. Of course. Their sense of fairness is very particular.
posted by pmv at 12:14 PM on April 15 [21 favorites]
I don't understand conservative women athletes at all - shouldn't they be sitting at home with their parents until their father hands them off to a husband? Why are they playing sports at all?
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 12:16 PM on April 15 [27 favorites]
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 12:16 PM on April 15 [27 favorites]
If you're not playing the sport by using your sex parts, it doesn't need to have divisions based on your sex parts ( much less your FORMER sex parts).
Where needed, introduce height/ weight classifications so that competitors are well-matched. Get rid of sex based divisions and let's stop having this dumbass argument.
posted by emjaybee at 12:22 PM on April 15 [10 favorites]
Where needed, introduce height/ weight classifications so that competitors are well-matched. Get rid of sex based divisions and let's stop having this dumbass argument.
posted by emjaybee at 12:22 PM on April 15 [10 favorites]
much less your FORMER sex parts
Obligatory PSA that trans people are not obliged to have surgery of any kind of our genders to be legitimate.
posted by hoyland at 12:25 PM on April 15 [43 favorites]
Obligatory PSA that trans people are not obliged to have surgery of any kind of our genders to be legitimate.
posted by hoyland at 12:25 PM on April 15 [43 favorites]
To expand a little bit on my earlier comment, there is a long history in women’s athletics of questioning the gender of participants, especially at the higher levels of the sport. A good history is here (which I thought was an FPP at one point, but can’t find it). So all of these athletes and their supporters who claim to be helping women’s sports can also be seen as the latest in a long tradition of making women athletes do things that are never asked of men.
posted by TedW at 12:51 PM on April 15 [12 favorites]
posted by TedW at 12:51 PM on April 15 [12 favorites]
I guess this is how single-issue voters always are. I guess this is why the worst people in the world court those voters.
Given the rest of the grift, like how she had no objections to competing against cis men, or how she was apparently a regular reader of a website that those of you brave enough to check on report is entirely dedicated to hit pieces against trans folks, I see no reason to believe her claims about her previous voting behavior.
posted by eviemath at 1:00 PM on April 15 [9 favorites]
Given the rest of the grift, like how she had no objections to competing against cis men, or how she was apparently a regular reader of a website that those of you brave enough to check on report is entirely dedicated to hit pieces against trans folks, I see no reason to believe her claims about her previous voting behavior.
posted by eviemath at 1:00 PM on April 15 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Comment and reply to it deleted. It’s 100% uncalled for and not ok to make comments about groomers and predators in a thread about Trans athletes. Do not do that again.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:24 PM on April 15 [24 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:24 PM on April 15 [24 favorites]
> there are also tactics whose aim is to negate any strength advantage an opponent might have. absence of blade, for example: that is, fencing in such a way that you never allow an opponent to beat or hard parry your weapon.
my god, fencing tactics (and the names for fencing tactics) are so fucking cool.
posted by Sperry Topsider at 1:36 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
my god, fencing tactics (and the names for fencing tactics) are so fucking cool.
posted by Sperry Topsider at 1:36 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Oh, also, check out what Cyberslug Labs has in their profile, under the "what's the deal with your name" heading:
Telling gay kids that they are "born wrong" is child abuse. I know from experience.
This is so explicitly, disgracefully transphobic.
Again, why have they not been banned?
posted by june_dodecahedron at 1:38 PM on April 15 [4 favorites]
Telling gay kids that they are "born wrong" is child abuse. I know from experience.
This is so explicitly, disgracefully transphobic.
Again, why have they not been banned?
posted by june_dodecahedron at 1:38 PM on April 15 [4 favorites]
The second paragraph of the Fox News link in the post caught my eye (emphasis added):
Ahead of a bout at the Cherry Blossom Open in Maryland over the weekend, Turner, 31, made the decision not to compete against trans athlete Redmond Sullivan. And Turner also wanted to make sure her refusal was caught on video for the world to see.
The report doesn't do anything else with that statement, but it prompted me to notice that all their photos were marked "Courtesy of ICON." ICON, it turns out, is the "Independent Council on Women's Sports," an outfit that apparently has made it their mission to end the participation of trans women and girls in organized sports - or as they put it, to "protect female athletes from discrimination and exclusion on the basis of their sex by defining eligibility for the women’s/girl’s categories to female participants."
So yeah - this wasn't about taking a principled stand when circumstances arose. Rather, it appears Turner contacted them to make sure they'd have someone on-site to document it and make it blow up.
posted by nickmark at 1:44 PM on April 15 [16 favorites]
Ahead of a bout at the Cherry Blossom Open in Maryland over the weekend, Turner, 31, made the decision not to compete against trans athlete Redmond Sullivan. And Turner also wanted to make sure her refusal was caught on video for the world to see.
The report doesn't do anything else with that statement, but it prompted me to notice that all their photos were marked "Courtesy of ICON." ICON, it turns out, is the "Independent Council on Women's Sports," an outfit that apparently has made it their mission to end the participation of trans women and girls in organized sports - or as they put it, to "protect female athletes from discrimination and exclusion on the basis of their sex by defining eligibility for the women’s/girl’s categories to female participants."
So yeah - this wasn't about taking a principled stand when circumstances arose. Rather, it appears Turner contacted them to make sure they'd have someone on-site to document it and make it blow up.
posted by nickmark at 1:44 PM on April 15 [16 favorites]
It just seems so petty and horrible.
This fencer seems to not be a person I would like to talk to...
And, OMG!!! in Fencing?!!!
Please.
How many people in the world make a living as being a Fencer? Probably not a ton.
As someone who has/had a couple of "Olympic Sports" sports children in college. You are likely to not make any money doing this, unless you are the absolute best of the best, or you go into coaching/training the upcoming club team players.
Can't we all just get along?
(No we can't. My college roomate has turned right-wing maga loon. Haven't talked to him sine the day after Trump won in 2016. "Was going to be a great new day". And it is my 40th college reunion this summer back in Minnesota. Signed up. And then he and his spouse signed up. I have emailed her some for status, but, "Lie down with Nazis..." Almost have wanted to cancel to not have that meeting. And I didn't have a ton of other "friends" back then. (Sorry for the digression)).
Fencing, (cool but LOL).
WE have a fencer or two in the Mefiverse don't we?
posted by Windopaene at 1:47 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
This fencer seems to not be a person I would like to talk to...
And, OMG!!! in Fencing?!!!
Please.
How many people in the world make a living as being a Fencer? Probably not a ton.
As someone who has/had a couple of "Olympic Sports" sports children in college. You are likely to not make any money doing this, unless you are the absolute best of the best, or you go into coaching/training the upcoming club team players.
Can't we all just get along?
(No we can't. My college roomate has turned right-wing maga loon. Haven't talked to him sine the day after Trump won in 2016. "Was going to be a great new day". And it is my 40th college reunion this summer back in Minnesota. Signed up. And then he and his spouse signed up. I have emailed her some for status, but, "Lie down with Nazis..." Almost have wanted to cancel to not have that meeting. And I didn't have a ton of other "friends" back then. (Sorry for the digression)).
Fencing, (cool but LOL).
WE have a fencer or two in the Mefiverse don't we?
posted by Windopaene at 1:47 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
@june_dodecahedron, I'm no mod, but as the original poster, could you take it to the mods directly or to MeTa? I feel it's kind of derailing.
Mods, you can nuke this if I'm overstepping. Thank you.
posted by mephron at 1:47 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
Mods, you can nuke this if I'm overstepping. Thank you.
posted by mephron at 1:47 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
I would love if we stopped entertaining the obviously bad-faith arguments of transphobes and getting bogged down in the minutiae of physical “advantages”, even to debunk them. It’s a rhetorical trap and only serves to help show them where to move the goalposts next.
posted by Jon_Evil at 1:48 PM on April 15 [10 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 1:48 PM on April 15 [10 favorites]
I agree with you, Jon_Evil, but it's also good to know the facts in case you end up discussing these issues. I end up talking about it a lot -- hell, I'm wearing my "End gender policing in athletics" t-shirt right now -- and some people need to have the physical stuff explained to them. Some people agree when I say "they're just athletes wanting to live their lives, let them play" but it's good to be able to bring up the Air Force studies or whatever if needed.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:53 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:53 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Mod note: june_dodecahedron, thanks for bringing this to our attention. In the future, please flag and then shoot us an email to get our attention in these situations. There's only one mod on duty and I am just now seeing the profile you've pointed out.
Let's refocus this thread back to the topic it was intended for, as OP has requested. I can confirm that I'm bringing this up to the team right now and working on taking action. Feel free to shoot me an email if you have any other concerns.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:55 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Let's refocus this thread back to the topic it was intended for, as OP has requested. I can confirm that I'm bringing this up to the team right now and working on taking action. Feel free to shoot me an email if you have any other concerns.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:55 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
She presumably faces stronger opponents with longer reach all the time - that's called competition.
Yeah, I think this all the time. Organized sports are full of complicated rules determining who's eligible to compete when, who competes against whom, what kind of supplements and equipment they can use, etc., and they change over time. I'm sure many athletes disagree with some of them, because people who are passionate about something are always going to have strong opinions about how things are run. People apparently complained that a preteen Caitlin Clark was allowed to play basketball against boys (because there wasn't an equally competitive girls' program).
Sometimes people point out that athletes born in certain months have an advantage, because they enter school almost a year of growth later than their classmates. But somehow nobody needs to call a press conference to forfeit a match because their opponent started kindergarten at age 5 and 11 months.
posted by smelendez at 1:57 PM on April 15 [15 favorites]
Yeah, I think this all the time. Organized sports are full of complicated rules determining who's eligible to compete when, who competes against whom, what kind of supplements and equipment they can use, etc., and they change over time. I'm sure many athletes disagree with some of them, because people who are passionate about something are always going to have strong opinions about how things are run. People apparently complained that a preteen Caitlin Clark was allowed to play basketball against boys (because there wasn't an equally competitive girls' program).
Sometimes people point out that athletes born in certain months have an advantage, because they enter school almost a year of growth later than their classmates. But somehow nobody needs to call a press conference to forfeit a match because their opponent started kindergarten at age 5 and 11 months.
posted by smelendez at 1:57 PM on April 15 [15 favorites]
Can't wait to hear Turner's principled, calm response when her next opponent takes a knee, refusing to share a competitive space with a wretched transphobic woman-shaped pile of garbage.
...actually, is there a GoFundMe I can donate to in order to make this happen?
posted by Mayor West at 2:05 PM on April 15 [8 favorites]
...actually, is there a GoFundMe I can donate to in order to make this happen?
posted by Mayor West at 2:05 PM on April 15 [8 favorites]
Much more likely that Trump will pull her up on stage for a media opportunity, tell the entire world that the competition is unfair because of how easily he could beat her at fencing, and then boot her quickly off the stage without letting her speak for herself.
posted by phunniemee at 2:16 PM on April 15 [6 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 2:16 PM on April 15 [6 favorites]
Performative bigotry, shameless fearmongering from the usual suspects. I feel like I've seen this movie before...
From the amazing journalist Katie Barnes, an ESPN article from November chronicles the recent volleyball season at San Jose State -- where the bigotry towards a trans athlete comes from both competitors and teammates.
It's a long read, but it's remarkably well researched, offering a many perspectives on the specifics of the 2024 volleyball season, but using that as an on-ramp to look at the broader issue and history of trans athletes in the NCAA. And, of course, the insidious efforts on the right to turn these athletes into villains with dangerous athletic superpowers. (Fox News, Reduxx, and ICON make appearances in the article, as with the FPP... those bad-faith actors are nothing if not pernicious & coordinated on this topic)
The article carefully documents the historical efforts of the NCAA to draft thoughtful policy about trans athletes, and researches plenty of basic anecdotes and quotes from a number of sources to dispell the "trans athletes = dangerous for /our/ women!" grievances. The way this serious journalism contrasts with the article's mind-numbingly stupid quote from you-know-who -- in its original, fractured English -- left me speechless.
tl;dr Katie Barnes rocks
This article made me outspoken on this topic
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 2:39 PM on April 15 [7 favorites]
From the amazing journalist Katie Barnes, an ESPN article from November chronicles the recent volleyball season at San Jose State -- where the bigotry towards a trans athlete comes from both competitors and teammates.
It's a long read, but it's remarkably well researched, offering a many perspectives on the specifics of the 2024 volleyball season, but using that as an on-ramp to look at the broader issue and history of trans athletes in the NCAA. And, of course, the insidious efforts on the right to turn these athletes into villains with dangerous athletic superpowers. (Fox News, Reduxx, and ICON make appearances in the article, as with the FPP... those bad-faith actors are nothing if not pernicious & coordinated on this topic)
The article carefully documents the historical efforts of the NCAA to draft thoughtful policy about trans athletes, and researches plenty of basic anecdotes and quotes from a number of sources to dispell the "trans athletes = dangerous for /our/ women!" grievances. The way this serious journalism contrasts with the article's mind-numbingly stupid quote from you-know-who -- in its original, fractured English -- left me speechless.
tl;dr Katie Barnes rocks
This article made me outspoken on this topic
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 2:39 PM on April 15 [7 favorites]
Boy, the transphobes must be getting desperate if they're coming after fencing for their sad little stunts.
What's next? Contract bridge? Real tennis?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:59 PM on April 15
What's next? Contract bridge? Real tennis?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:59 PM on April 15
Mod note: CyberSlug Labs, take the week off while the moderation team discusses your comments.
In the meantime, it is suggested that you seriously rethink your participation on the site, your comments were transphobic because they blamed child predators and social media for creating trans people. Completely unacceptable.
This note has been emailed to CyberSlug Labs.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:28 PM on April 15 [7 favorites]
In the meantime, it is suggested that you seriously rethink your participation on the site, your comments were transphobic because they blamed child predators and social media for creating trans people. Completely unacceptable.
This note has been emailed to CyberSlug Labs.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:28 PM on April 15 [7 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed for doubling down on saying "fuck you" to another member. That rule is pretty straightforward, please do not double down on breaking it.
Another comment removed for pulling information from a user's profile into the thread and demanding a user be banned.
june_dodecahedron, you absolutely need to chill on these types of derails in this thread. You're welcome to take it to MetaTalk or email the mods. Your anger is understandable and the mods are your side, but please avoid continuing to derail the original thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:31 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
Another comment removed for pulling information from a user's profile into the thread and demanding a user be banned.
june_dodecahedron, you absolutely need to chill on these types of derails in this thread. You're welcome to take it to MetaTalk or email the mods. Your anger is understandable and the mods are your side, but please avoid continuing to derail the original thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:31 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
Boy, the transphobes must be getting desperate if they're coming after fencing for their sad little stunts.
they're not desperate. this is an all-out assault on us. we see it everywhere.
posted by secret about box at 3:32 PM on April 15 [8 favorites]
they're not desperate. this is an all-out assault on us. we see it everywhere.
posted by secret about box at 3:32 PM on April 15 [8 favorites]
june_dodecahedron, you absolutely need to chill on these types of derails in this thread.
i'm perfectly okay bringing transphobes into the light where we can all see them. "don't derail the thread about transphobia by exposing transphobic members" is not the good moderation you think it is.
posted by secret about box at 3:34 PM on April 15 [35 favorites]
i'm perfectly okay bringing transphobes into the light where we can all see them. "don't derail the thread about transphobia by exposing transphobic members" is not the good moderation you think it is.
posted by secret about box at 3:34 PM on April 15 [35 favorites]
mefi continues to disappoint, re: trans threads, every fuckin time
posted by secret about box at 3:35 PM on April 15 [18 favorites]
posted by secret about box at 3:35 PM on April 15 [18 favorites]
secret about box: "
i'm perfectly okay bringing transphobes into the light where we can all see them. "don't derail the thread about transphobia by exposing transphobic members" is not the good moderation you think it is."
This.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:51 PM on April 15 [6 favorites]
i'm perfectly okay bringing transphobes into the light where we can all see them. "don't derail the thread about transphobia by exposing transphobic members" is not the good moderation you think it is."
This.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:51 PM on April 15 [6 favorites]
only been an epeeist for about 2 years
JV Epee Squad member here! I so didn't belong there, but they were desperate for Froshlings who had any interest.
I think you're very right about foil right of way rules evening things out a lot. I haven't fenced in thirty years, but I learned bokken kata in Aikido, and I sword fight at LARPs, so I've learned some other ways to use a sword over the years. I think reach is only an important factor if one is fighting to first touch, like in epee or in light-touch LARPs - and even then, intelligence and skill are absolutely key to good swordplay.
For that matter, my reach is only that of a 5'9" person - much of my extra height is in my neck and torso, not my arms. People experience a testosterone-modified puberty in a lot of different ways. Blanket assumptions about physical advantages betrays either ignorance or blatant discrimination (or both).
For me, transitioning has let me identify as a front-line warrior woman at my LARPs. It is an important part of who I am, so organizations like the NCAA betraying trans athletes comes as a huge blow. The reality is that other women - mostly cis women - at my LARPs look to me as an example of what they can do too if they want - not as some sort of cheater. And the girls I taught in children's Aikido looked up to me as a role model, not as some sort of 'other.' There is room for all kinds of women in an accepting society.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 5:02 PM on April 15 [26 favorites]
JV Epee Squad member here! I so didn't belong there, but they were desperate for Froshlings who had any interest.
I think you're very right about foil right of way rules evening things out a lot. I haven't fenced in thirty years, but I learned bokken kata in Aikido, and I sword fight at LARPs, so I've learned some other ways to use a sword over the years. I think reach is only an important factor if one is fighting to first touch, like in epee or in light-touch LARPs - and even then, intelligence and skill are absolutely key to good swordplay.
For that matter, my reach is only that of a 5'9" person - much of my extra height is in my neck and torso, not my arms. People experience a testosterone-modified puberty in a lot of different ways. Blanket assumptions about physical advantages betrays either ignorance or blatant discrimination (or both).
For me, transitioning has let me identify as a front-line warrior woman at my LARPs. It is an important part of who I am, so organizations like the NCAA betraying trans athletes comes as a huge blow. The reality is that other women - mostly cis women - at my LARPs look to me as an example of what they can do too if they want - not as some sort of cheater. And the girls I taught in children's Aikido looked up to me as a role model, not as some sort of 'other.' There is room for all kinds of women in an accepting society.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 5:02 PM on April 15 [26 favorites]
A thread on Twitter, originally posted by Dr. Sheree Bekker, who has since deleted her account:
Finally, I agree with everyone that @CyberSlug Labs' should have be banned.
posted by ftrtts at 5:14 PM on April 15 [34 favorites]
"I have been hearing more frequently the narrative that women's sport apparently exists as a 'protected category' so that women can win (because, on this account, without it no woman will ever win again)There's also an NYT article that covers the thread. It presents an opposing viewpoint by Professor Chris Beneke:
This is:
a) *not* the reason why women's sport exists as a category,
and b) it is *not* true that no woman will ever win again.
This narrative is profoundly paternalistic and keeps women small.
Let's unpack this a little:
A. Women's sport exists as a category because the dominance of men athletes was threatened by women competing.
We see this over and over again in the history of sport...
Exhibit A1: Figure Skating
1902: Madge Syers enters the World Champs and comes 2nd (no rule preventing her, though no woman has ever entered before)
1903: Women banned from World Champs
1905: Segregated women's category
Exhibit A2: Skeet Shooting
1992 Barcelona: Zhang Shang wins the Gold Medal. The event had always been an open event (no gendered categories)
1996 Atlanta: women banned from shooting
2000 Sydney: Segregated women's category, fewer targets for women
Exhibit A3: Football
1920: Women's football thriving in the UK with 53000 strong crowds (men had been off fighting in WW1)
1921: FA bans women's football (men had returned from WW1)
1971: Fifty (50!) years later ban is lifted, women's football is still recovering"
[Continue reading...] Bekker also has much more writing on her website]
Rules were modified so that women would “adhere to stricter social norms,” said Chris Beneke, a professor of history at Bentley University.Note that sports are not gender-segregated in order to "help even the biological playing field for women." The history doesn't fit that narrative.
For example, in basketball, women and girls for years could not steal the ball, were divided into three sections on the court and had to stay in assigned areas.
The point was “to make sure there wasn’t too much contact and too much exertion,” Professor Beneke said. “There was a real concern that they would hurt their organs.”
Specifically, he said, their reproductive organs.
[...]
“I don’t mean to diminish the role that bigotry played in restricting women’s athletic endeavors over the decades,” he said. “But male fears about being beaten by women has not been anything like the motivating factor that Professor Bekker suggests.”
Finally, I agree with everyone that @CyberSlug Labs' should have be banned.
posted by ftrtts at 5:14 PM on April 15 [34 favorites]
Mod note: BlueHorse: "Stupid hag. I could have had 1/1000th of empathy for her actually being afraid to face a stronger opponent with more reach due to body proportion and losing. But having competed with men the week before some of who were no doubt taller, stronger, and perhaps more talented than Sullivan, she was just being a bitch."
BlueHorse, this type of sexist language is not ok MetaFilter, it violates our Content Policy, which is there to make it clear that the site is not a haven for hate speech.
Please avoid using this type of language in the future, as it may lead to removal of content and/or a ban. For now I'm leaving the comment up to make it clear what's occurred.
I'm assigning a day long ban and sending this note to your email.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:29 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
BlueHorse, this type of sexist language is not ok MetaFilter, it violates our Content Policy, which is there to make it clear that the site is not a haven for hate speech.
Please avoid using this type of language in the future, as it may lead to removal of content and/or a ban. For now I'm leaving the comment up to make it clear what's occurred.
I'm assigning a day long ban and sending this note to your email.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:29 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
Excuse me, is Cyberslug going to have their bad behavior immortalized too? Trans-sexism is also sexism. Why memory hole one but not the other?????
posted by phunniemee at 5:37 PM on April 15 [23 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 5:37 PM on April 15 [23 favorites]
I have to admit, I really want to know what Cyberslug said.
posted by ashbury at 5:48 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
posted by ashbury at 5:48 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
I am not a fencer, and do not follow fencing, but even I, as someone with some understanding of historical sword-fighting techniques, can imagine that reaction time, footspeed, and wrist technique are probably more important factors in competition than height or reach alone.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:01 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:01 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
I've moved around a bunch in the years I've lived in Chicago, through several apartments and now a house. Several years ago my cousin asked me how come alllll the places I've lived have been majority Mexican neighborhoods. Not that there's anything wrong with that™ he said, but he was curious why. It's something that I, an unpartnered cis white woman who has mostly lived alone, hadn't really directly noticed. And then I thought about it, and I realized I always felt comfortable in Mexican neighborhoods because I'm bigger than almost all of the men.
Y'all pretty please gotta stop talking about height and bone length every time this subject comes up. Across population variance, especially among diversely ethnic athletes, it's largely meaningless. Especially in non contact sports. Don't let transphobe rhetoric distract you.
posted by phunniemee at 6:40 PM on April 15 [12 favorites]
Y'all pretty please gotta stop talking about height and bone length every time this subject comes up. Across population variance, especially among diversely ethnic athletes, it's largely meaningless. Especially in non contact sports. Don't let transphobe rhetoric distract you.
posted by phunniemee at 6:40 PM on April 15 [12 favorites]
“But male fears about being beaten by women has not been anything like the motivating factor that Professor Bekker suggests.”
I think it's probably true that it wasn't really about fears of being bested in competition, but really more about loss of control and fear of women not remaining in their "place." So we could maybe restate Bekker's assertion as simply "Women's sport exists as a category because the dominance of menathletes was threatened by women competing."
posted by nickmark at 6:50 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
I think it's probably true that it wasn't really about fears of being bested in competition, but really more about loss of control and fear of women not remaining in their "place." So we could maybe restate Bekker's assertion as simply "Women's sport exists as a category because the dominance of men
posted by nickmark at 6:50 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
For example, in basketball, women and girls for years could not steal the ball, were divided into three sections on the court and had to stay in assigned areas.
Meaning they were forced to play netball instead, arguably the harder game.
posted by Thella at 8:18 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
Meaning they were forced to play netball instead, arguably the harder game.
posted by Thella at 8:18 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
Yeah, i'm not a huge fan of the word myself but there is no world in which a woman calling another woman a "bitch" is anywhere near on the same level of hatefulness as someone spouting transphobia.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:35 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:35 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
CIS male, A-rated epee fencer chiming in here. This is a stunt to get attention. What’s the argument here? That she didn’t want to fence someone because what? Was she worried about getting hurt? Then why’d she fence men the week before? There’s no physical argument here - people come in all shapes and sizes, and we don’t get to pick who we compete against. Suck it up buttercup. “Hi, I’d like to fence just the slow, out of shape folks for the gold medal if you don’t mind….”
Hopefully this is the most controversial thing I’ll say - it’s foil, you’re not going to get seriously hurt. Worst case you get whipped on the wrist or back - super painful. Even worse is if your opponent’s weapon breaks and you get stabbed. But you’ll walk away from that. Even worse than that would be if your opponent ran into you and you fall and get concussed - this happens far too often. But it’s a contact sport.
In epee - and, let’s face it, epee is just better than foil, we can all agree - I have unintentionally knocked people over, hit people in the face (prime turns into my forearm hitting their mask), given and received scars (weapons break and still go thru FIE rated equipment), given and received serious bruises, had people run into me and fall over (I’m large), etc. I have my physical therapist and chiropractors on speed dial. It’s called chess with knives for a reason.
If I wanted to, I could level any one of my opponents physically - I mean lay them flat out and they won’t be getting up anytime soon - all in the course of fencing. But why would I do that? I know multiple people who have gotten concussions from reckless fencers. There are people who get a reputation for being reckless - we just avoid them when possible and manage distance when it’s not.
If a trans athlete showed up to a tournament, who f*ing cares? You signed up, paid the fees, made it to the strip when called, and hopefully I kicked your ass. Or you beat me - I lose to men, women, and children on a weekly basis. Who cares? I fence because I enjoy stabbing things, er, rather, ah, I mean I like the competitive aspects or something.
This is all a stunt. Headline should be “mediocre fencer finds opportunity to be annoying on strip and off.” She got the video, it went viral, lather, rinse, repeat. My guess is she’ll get a Trump-backed Meme-coin any day now.
posted by Farce_First at 8:37 PM on April 15 [29 favorites]
Hopefully this is the most controversial thing I’ll say - it’s foil, you’re not going to get seriously hurt. Worst case you get whipped on the wrist or back - super painful. Even worse is if your opponent’s weapon breaks and you get stabbed. But you’ll walk away from that. Even worse than that would be if your opponent ran into you and you fall and get concussed - this happens far too often. But it’s a contact sport.
In epee - and, let’s face it, epee is just better than foil, we can all agree - I have unintentionally knocked people over, hit people in the face (prime turns into my forearm hitting their mask), given and received scars (weapons break and still go thru FIE rated equipment), given and received serious bruises, had people run into me and fall over (I’m large), etc. I have my physical therapist and chiropractors on speed dial. It’s called chess with knives for a reason.
If I wanted to, I could level any one of my opponents physically - I mean lay them flat out and they won’t be getting up anytime soon - all in the course of fencing. But why would I do that? I know multiple people who have gotten concussions from reckless fencers. There are people who get a reputation for being reckless - we just avoid them when possible and manage distance when it’s not.
If a trans athlete showed up to a tournament, who f*ing cares? You signed up, paid the fees, made it to the strip when called, and hopefully I kicked your ass. Or you beat me - I lose to men, women, and children on a weekly basis. Who cares? I fence because I enjoy stabbing things, er, rather, ah, I mean I like the competitive aspects or something.
This is all a stunt. Headline should be “mediocre fencer finds opportunity to be annoying on strip and off.” She got the video, it went viral, lather, rinse, repeat. My guess is she’ll get a Trump-backed Meme-coin any day now.
posted by Farce_First at 8:37 PM on April 15 [29 favorites]
Get rid of sex based divisions and let's stop having this dumbass argument.
Yes, but at the elite/professional level, there would be few if any women competing, at least in any sport that I can think of. At lower levels, such as high school, very few girls would make most teams.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:18 PM on April 15 [4 favorites]
Yes, but at the elite/professional level, there would be few if any women competing, at least in any sport that I can think of. At lower levels, such as high school, very few girls would make most teams.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:18 PM on April 15 [4 favorites]
Sex differences in sport are disappearing because of cultural changes. Families did not commonly put their 4 year old girls in a sport, and did not commonly feed them to support training, and many sports were closed to girls for no particular reason, or changed significantly (like softball vs. baseball, do not get me started on why Little League and the minors at least should be co-ed) when I was a kid.
This is all different now-- girls whose families can support it do as many sports as early as they want and nearly everything allows girls to play. In some sports (especially endurance or distance sports) women are absolutely catching up.
If women can't win in a sport, then make that sport's leagues ability-based like fencing, or weight-classed, or whatever makes sense until everyone can compete in at least one division. Us outliers-- trans, or unusually small or large or strong or talented-- will have a place to play and maybe win.
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:31 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
This is all different now-- girls whose families can support it do as many sports as early as they want and nearly everything allows girls to play. In some sports (especially endurance or distance sports) women are absolutely catching up.
If women can't win in a sport, then make that sport's leagues ability-based like fencing, or weight-classed, or whatever makes sense until everyone can compete in at least one division. Us outliers-- trans, or unusually small or large or strong or talented-- will have a place to play and maybe win.
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:31 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Also, it's not sporting to turn down a challenge because you think you'll lose. You smile and say good game! I don't know how to convey the depth of my disdain here.
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:36 PM on April 15 [9 favorites]
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:36 PM on April 15 [9 favorites]
Useful background: Sex Differences in Sport Are Hugely Controversial Right Now. Here’s What Science Does (and Doesn’t) Know.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:47 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:47 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
They aren't banning trans people because of any advantage trans women possess. If there was one it would merely validate their anti trans goals. They are looking for reasons to ban trans women, and they are doing that because it's a good way to attack trans people.
They are going after trans people as a fucking distraction, as a scapegoat, because we are different, and difference is easy to attack. They make us seem icky and dangerous, they make immigrants seem icky and dangerous.
But even if something about being trans, despite all the requirements to transition, was proven an advantage, what makes their advantage different than every other advantage, other than transmisogyny? Because there are tall cis women, I mean the WNBA players average 6 feet tall, we aren't banning them from basketball.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 12:02 AM on April 16 [22 favorites]
The Daily Show explains how to understand the stock market if you only watch Fox News : when they are covering a trans athlete it means the market is falling and the more obscure the sport or out of date the recording implies a larger decline. Fencing, for instance, is unknown enough to warrant a 4% slide in the DOW, while two year old iPhone footage of a hackeysack competition in the UK would indicate a full blown depression.
posted by autopilot at 12:35 AM on April 16 [16 favorites]
posted by autopilot at 12:35 AM on April 16 [16 favorites]
Regarding sex differences in sport, there are several studies out now showing that women gain muscle at the same rate as men when given the same training program. It's just that women are usually starting at a lower baseline of muscle mass. Why could that be? Here's a discussion, with plenty of citations, by a Dutch professional who trains women in bodybuilding.
Tl;dr: Women have lower expectations (which matters, he cites a study where people who thought they were on steroids but weren't, made greater gains), and they tend to use programs that don't max out their potential (the pink dumbbell problem). Women are also underrepresented in strength sports, so there is less competition than in the male categories. Basically, it's all cultural.
He also addresses the myth that you can't make gains without sufficient testosterone, as women have 3 times the amount of circulation growth hormone as men, so they have plenty to work with.
Finally, here's another discussion by a couple of male Swedish lifters (who also created my favorite workout tracking app) that includes more studies that show men and women gain at the same rate.
So there's some hard science to show that gender and sex should not matter in sports. (Not that we needed it, no one seems to complain about trans athletes when they lose their competitions, only when they win, so that's clearly discrimination, and as discussed up-thread, rules of women's sports are often different for dumb cultural reasons and nothing else, but I digress.)
posted by antinomia at 12:44 AM on April 16 [8 favorites]
Tl;dr: Women have lower expectations (which matters, he cites a study where people who thought they were on steroids but weren't, made greater gains), and they tend to use programs that don't max out their potential (the pink dumbbell problem). Women are also underrepresented in strength sports, so there is less competition than in the male categories. Basically, it's all cultural.
He also addresses the myth that you can't make gains without sufficient testosterone, as women have 3 times the amount of circulation growth hormone as men, so they have plenty to work with.
Finally, here's another discussion by a couple of male Swedish lifters (who also created my favorite workout tracking app) that includes more studies that show men and women gain at the same rate.
So there's some hard science to show that gender and sex should not matter in sports. (Not that we needed it, no one seems to complain about trans athletes when they lose their competitions, only when they win, so that's clearly discrimination, and as discussed up-thread, rules of women's sports are often different for dumb cultural reasons and nothing else, but I digress.)
posted by antinomia at 12:44 AM on April 16 [8 favorites]
I have submitted a MetaTalk about the mod actions in this post.
posted by fight or flight at 1:37 AM on April 16 [7 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 1:37 AM on April 16 [7 favorites]
From Umberto Eco's list of the features of fascism... The enemy is both strong and weak. Somehow trans people are so strong we're overturning the order of things while also being weak in the morals department or easily preyed upon.
Nothing about the right-wing stir over trans people playing sports, which has also infected many on the left (because on the surface it seems clear when really it's not... that's what wedge issues do), is done in good faith.
There are so few of us in general and fewer still playing sports. Jr high and high schools could be handling this on a case-by-case basis with federal protections already in place (tho those protections are being broken at the moment). Colleges and professional sports already had sensible rules in place before the fear-mongering gave people an excuse to discriminate.
It really does need to be remembered that if the right-wing are pushing an idea hard, it's almost definitely terrible and is intended to further their agenda of taking power without responsibility or accountability.
posted by kokaku at 2:19 AM on April 16 [8 favorites]
Nothing about the right-wing stir over trans people playing sports, which has also infected many on the left (because on the surface it seems clear when really it's not... that's what wedge issues do), is done in good faith.
There are so few of us in general and fewer still playing sports. Jr high and high schools could be handling this on a case-by-case basis with federal protections already in place (tho those protections are being broken at the moment). Colleges and professional sports already had sensible rules in place before the fear-mongering gave people an excuse to discriminate.
It really does need to be remembered that if the right-wing are pushing an idea hard, it's almost definitely terrible and is intended to further their agenda of taking power without responsibility or accountability.
posted by kokaku at 2:19 AM on April 16 [8 favorites]
Chrysopoeia: "They are going after trans people as a fucking distraction, as a scapegoat, because we are different, and difference is easy to attack."
This this this this this. Trans folks are EASY PICKINGS for the right wing to weasel their way into your brain, because trans people are 🩷WEIRD🩵. They are NOT LIKE YOU AND ME. They will tell you. And if you don't think trans people are weird, they'll try to get you on girls' sports or toilets. Say oh yes fine okay so it's all well and good for a trans adult to go be a trans adult somewhere off alone, but they're in your toilets and softball teams now, beating up your daughters and transing your children.
Do not mistake for one second how fast this will turn on you. The moment they win you over to the side of okay maybe trans folks should have fewer rights, they're going to move their goalposts. The immigrants. The gays. The childless cat ladies. I mean they are literally already doing this, but their most vehement attacks to soften you up to make you think of a group of people as inhuman right now are aimed at trans folks.
This is why intersectionality is so important. I'm a cis straight white lady, I'm independent, I don't want a husband or kids, I just want to maintain some level of health and financial security so I can die old and safe with my dogs. But you are fucking delulu if you don't think they're coming for me, too. The dominoes are all lined up.
The right wing media doesn't care about trans people. Just like they don't care about fetuses or unborn babies. They find easy, convenient targets and weaponize them to give reasonable people The Ick, and then use that chink to weasel their way in.
posted by phunniemee at 4:37 AM on April 16 [22 favorites]
This this this this this. Trans folks are EASY PICKINGS for the right wing to weasel their way into your brain, because trans people are 🩷WEIRD🩵. They are NOT LIKE YOU AND ME. They will tell you. And if you don't think trans people are weird, they'll try to get you on girls' sports or toilets. Say oh yes fine okay so it's all well and good for a trans adult to go be a trans adult somewhere off alone, but they're in your toilets and softball teams now, beating up your daughters and transing your children.
Do not mistake for one second how fast this will turn on you. The moment they win you over to the side of okay maybe trans folks should have fewer rights, they're going to move their goalposts. The immigrants. The gays. The childless cat ladies. I mean they are literally already doing this, but their most vehement attacks to soften you up to make you think of a group of people as inhuman right now are aimed at trans folks.
This is why intersectionality is so important. I'm a cis straight white lady, I'm independent, I don't want a husband or kids, I just want to maintain some level of health and financial security so I can die old and safe with my dogs. But you are fucking delulu if you don't think they're coming for me, too. The dominoes are all lined up.
The right wing media doesn't care about trans people. Just like they don't care about fetuses or unborn babies. They find easy, convenient targets and weaponize them to give reasonable people The Ick, and then use that chink to weasel their way in.
posted by phunniemee at 4:37 AM on April 16 [22 favorites]
Don't stick up for us because you're next.
Stick up for us because we're people.
Just like you.
posted by She Vaped An Entire Sock! at 4:48 AM on April 16 [37 favorites]
Stick up for us because we're people.
Just like you.
posted by She Vaped An Entire Sock! at 4:48 AM on April 16 [37 favorites]
Yes of course, that's an argument for people who are googling statistics on arm length, like it's even remotely relevant to the problem. Sorry to have lost the message. Trans people are whole people. And they are being used as a scapegoat. Both things are true.
posted by phunniemee at 5:00 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 5:00 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
On a related (terrible) note, the UK Supreme Court has just ruled on the matter of biological sex:
posted by fight or flight at 5:01 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]
Announcing the court’s decision on Wednesday (16 April), Supreme Court judge Lord Hodge said the 2010 Equality Act’s definition of a woman is based on biological sex.(Content warning for transphobic and gender essentialist language used throughout in reference to the ruling.)
“The unanimous decision of this court is that the terms woman and sex in the Equality Act 2010 refer to a biological woman and biological sex,” he said.
“But we counsel against reading this judgement as a triumph of one or more groups in our society at the expense of another, it is not,” he added, noting that trans people still have protection under the law.
He further said that “the Equality Act 2010 gives transgender people protection, not only against discrimination through the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, but also against direct discrimination, indirect discrimination and harassment in substance in their acquired gender”.
posted by fight or flight at 5:01 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]
The UK decision really deserves its own post. (not a criticism of it featuring in a comment here, it's just...a lot.)
posted by mittens at 5:03 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:03 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
And not to bang on this drum again but if your feminism doesn't include trans people, YOU'RE NOT A FEMINIST. AAAAHHH
posted by phunniemee at 5:04 AM on April 16 [14 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 5:04 AM on April 16 [14 favorites]
As per phunniemee, INTERSECTIONALITY OR GTFO.
I'm sorry, if members are being transphobic on this forum, then you ban the transphobes. Giving them time off or slaps on the wrist reinforces that the dangers trans folks are facing aren't really that important and hey, any engagement is good engagement, riiiiight?
FFS.
posted by Kitteh at 5:19 AM on April 16 [14 favorites]
I'm sorry, if members are being transphobic on this forum, then you ban the transphobes. Giving them time off or slaps on the wrist reinforces that the dangers trans folks are facing aren't really that important and hey, any engagement is good engagement, riiiiight?
FFS.
posted by Kitteh at 5:19 AM on April 16 [14 favorites]
Someone's got to be willing to talk to them.
And in the meantime, those "reachable people" are sitting in threads like this one calling trans people groomers and predators. But yeah, great, love to sit and watch cis people talk to each other about why they should (gently) maybe consider that trans people are human beings?
Ban transphobes. Nothing of value will be lost, I promise.
posted by fight or flight at 5:52 AM on April 16 [26 favorites]
And in the meantime, those "reachable people" are sitting in threads like this one calling trans people groomers and predators. But yeah, great, love to sit and watch cis people talk to each other about why they should (gently) maybe consider that trans people are human beings?
Ban transphobes. Nothing of value will be lost, I promise.
posted by fight or flight at 5:52 AM on April 16 [26 favorites]
What I mean is, if you're the member of a privileged class, and you want to protect members of a marginalized class, part of your job is educating other people in your class.
That's a hard pass from me, dawg. I'll discuss things with people whose political ideologies differ from mine, and am generally pretty patient with Trumpist uncles at Thanksgiving. We can talk abstract notions of freedom or marginal tax rates all day, and I probably won't even get too worked up about it. The moment you start advocating for forced deportations or the dehumanization of trans people, you can get the fuck out of my house. If it's not my house, then don't bother getting up, I'll do the walking out, but either way: I'm not sharing a space with nazis. Neither should MetaFilter.
posted by Mayor West at 6:04 AM on April 16 [11 favorites]
That's a hard pass from me, dawg. I'll discuss things with people whose political ideologies differ from mine, and am generally pretty patient with Trumpist uncles at Thanksgiving. We can talk abstract notions of freedom or marginal tax rates all day, and I probably won't even get too worked up about it. The moment you start advocating for forced deportations or the dehumanization of trans people, you can get the fuck out of my house. If it's not my house, then don't bother getting up, I'll do the walking out, but either way: I'm not sharing a space with nazis. Neither should MetaFilter.
posted by Mayor West at 6:04 AM on April 16 [11 favorites]
I don't know whether I can say this as delicately and carefully as I mean it, but the GTFO portion of that, if too many people do it, is an abdication of moral responsibility.
My moral responsibility is to support and fight for the marginalized folks, not to educate people who do not want to be educated. This isn't about differences like, "yeah, I am not a fan of peanut butter and pickle sandwiches like yourself, but that's cool"; this is about not recognizing that trans people are people, and trans women are women.
posted by Kitteh at 6:11 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
My moral responsibility is to support and fight for the marginalized folks, not to educate people who do not want to be educated. This isn't about differences like, "yeah, I am not a fan of peanut butter and pickle sandwiches like yourself, but that's cool"; this is about not recognizing that trans people are people, and trans women are women.
posted by Kitteh at 6:11 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
You can't appeal to the empathy of someone who doesn't have any
posted by phunniemee at 6:15 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 6:15 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
for my own part, i'd love to have a trans thread on metafilter that resulted in more transphobes being banned than trans members buttoning
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:46 AM on April 16 [28 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:46 AM on April 16 [28 favorites]
I'm cool with the idea that cis white privileged people have a responsibility to call out bigots they interact with.
I am not cool with the idea that they should welcome these bigots into their communities, and not kick them out when they out themselves, because the result inevitably is that nice people will get pushed out by harassment. These folks enjoy having targets to abuse -- don't subject your community members to them. Call them out and let them know that their behavior will not be tolerated, so they must leave.
posted by antinomia at 6:51 AM on April 16 [9 favorites]
I am not cool with the idea that they should welcome these bigots into their communities, and not kick them out when they out themselves, because the result inevitably is that nice people will get pushed out by harassment. These folks enjoy having targets to abuse -- don't subject your community members to them. Call them out and let them know that their behavior will not be tolerated, so they must leave.
posted by antinomia at 6:51 AM on April 16 [9 favorites]
It can't always be, "this person said a horrible thing, out they go!" because eventually you wind up with no people.
No, eventually you end up with a thread about trans athletes without any transphobes in it, so we can discuss trans athletes without it being emotionally draining. Success!
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:16 AM on April 16 [24 favorites]
No, eventually you end up with a thread about trans athletes without any transphobes in it, so we can discuss trans athletes without it being emotionally draining. Success!
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:16 AM on April 16 [24 favorites]
For example, in basketball, women and girls for years could not steal the ball, were divided into three sections on the court and had to stay in assigned areas.
Meaning they were forced to play netball instead, arguably the harder game.
Most of my teachers in school who played sports (so this would have been late 1970s) played basketball like this. They had to pass between the separate groups - couldn't dribble. Towards the end, they played something more like normal basketball, but only halfcourt. And they had to play in pants. I played in the 1990s -boys all wore ridiculous supershort shorts. That didn't change until about 1993 or so. Check old-school NBA games. Those.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:41 AM on April 16 [1 favorite]
Meaning they were forced to play netball instead, arguably the harder game.
Most of my teachers in school who played sports (so this would have been late 1970s) played basketball like this. They had to pass between the separate groups - couldn't dribble. Towards the end, they played something more like normal basketball, but only halfcourt. And they had to play in pants. I played in the 1990s -boys all wore ridiculous supershort shorts. That didn't change until about 1993 or so. Check old-school NBA games. Those.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:41 AM on April 16 [1 favorite]
One of the great things about a well-managed public discussion is that it's available and free to read by anybody. Someone "reachable" can read it and have more understanding after doing so and seeing transphobes banned for saying unacceptable things and trans users being given extraordinary leeway to be fucking furious rather than being run off by over-rigid application of rules.
So, NOT this thread, but wouldn't it be great if it was? Because none of us had to "outreach" anybody or collaborate with Nazis, we just had the discussion and that's actually a great way for people to learn other perspectives they could choose instead of shitty ones.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:13 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
So, NOT this thread, but wouldn't it be great if it was? Because none of us had to "outreach" anybody or collaborate with Nazis, we just had the discussion and that's actually a great way for people to learn other perspectives they could choose instead of shitty ones.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:13 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
Boy, the transphobes must be getting desperate if they're coming after fencing for their sad little stunts.
fight or flight mentioned chess, where the International Chess Federation (FIDE) banned transgender women until a two-year study is done, which should be finished in August.
There's also been yelling about trans women in darts both in England and at the World Darts Championship.
And just today, Attorney Generaland general horrific humanoid creature Pam Bondi announced that the Trump Administration A Wholly-Owned Division of the Heritage Foundation is suing the state of Maine for not pulling the two trans girls in sport out of the sports programs and said the same may happen to California and Minnesota. The reason? In their opinion, Transgender women in sports is a violation of Title XI.
I wish I was making that part up.
posted by mephron at 8:13 AM on April 16 [3 favorites]
fight or flight mentioned chess, where the International Chess Federation (FIDE) banned transgender women until a two-year study is done, which should be finished in August.
There's also been yelling about trans women in darts both in England and at the World Darts Championship.
And just today, Attorney General
I wish I was making that part up.
posted by mephron at 8:13 AM on April 16 [3 favorites]
mephron, I appreciate this thread and I appreciate your efforts to maintain the focus on sports and games
I'm sure the MeTa queue is doing the lord's work delaying the wider conversation we *could* be having over there, instead of here, on how a community can/should respond to transphobes
posted by ginger.beef at 8:18 AM on April 16 [5 favorites]
I'm sure the MeTa queue is doing the lord's work delaying the wider conversation we *could* be having over there, instead of here, on how a community can/should respond to transphobes
posted by ginger.beef at 8:18 AM on April 16 [5 favorites]
Also, I want to say something to transphobes reading this thread, and that is to quote David Lynch. In this quote, he's playing FBI Deputy Director Gordon Cole, talking to FBI Chief of Staff Denise Bryson, a trans woman:
It's because hate will kill you. It is a poison, and it will kill you. Maybe not kill your body, but it will kill your heart, and your soul, and it will make you inhuman.
And I don't want that for anyone.
posted by mephron at 8:35 AM on April 16 [31 favorites]
“Before you were Denise, and you were Dennis, and I was your boss, when I had you working undercover at the DEA [Drug Enforcement Agency], you were a confused and wild thing sometimes. I had enough dirt on you to fill the Grand Canyon, and I never used a spoonful because you were and are a great agent. And when you became Denise, I told all of your colleagues, those clown comics, to fix their hearts or die.”That's what I really want to say to the transphobes here on MetaFilter: fix your hearts or die. And it's not because I'm going to, or anyone is going to, kill you or be violent towards you.
It's because hate will kill you. It is a poison, and it will kill you. Maybe not kill your body, but it will kill your heart, and your soul, and it will make you inhuman.
And I don't want that for anyone.
posted by mephron at 8:35 AM on April 16 [31 favorites]
Also how fucked up is it that medical transition for youth does erase some differences in performance, but kids aren't allowed to access that. But they're also not allowed to play on a team appropriate to their social gender so it's like "We need you to suffer from dysphoria, but also suffer from a lack of sports." And if they get to play anyway, some sore loser is going to complain to the media.
And then they grow up and because they got forced into the wrong puberty they're also not allowed to play sports in their real gender because of a slight advantage they may or may not even have and definitely did not want in the first place. Like what are they even supposed to do with this. It sounds like some sore losers don't want a fair game, to me, which I suppose all of politics is right now when I think about it.
posted by blnkfrnk at 8:56 AM on April 16 [9 favorites]
And then they grow up and because they got forced into the wrong puberty they're also not allowed to play sports in their real gender because of a slight advantage they may or may not even have and definitely did not want in the first place. Like what are they even supposed to do with this. It sounds like some sore losers don't want a fair game, to me, which I suppose all of politics is right now when I think about it.
posted by blnkfrnk at 8:56 AM on April 16 [9 favorites]
I think in a hundred years people will think the concept of gender segregated sports is strange.
posted by quillbreaker at 9:24 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
posted by quillbreaker at 9:24 AM on April 16 [6 favorites]
the International Chess Federation (FIDE) banned transgender women until a two-year study is done, which should be finished in August.
There's also been yelling about trans women in darts both in England and at the World Darts Championship.
Are those even events where gender-segregation has been the norm? Why is the gender-presentation of a chess player remotely relevant to determining who they should be playing against?
I think in a hundred years people will think the concept of gender segregated sports is strange.
Every time trans-folks in sports comes up, I think of how weird it is that gender's regarded as a useful differentiation. In contrast, segregating sports by experience or age or league or weight or height all seem like reasonable ways to make sure that weedy little folks just trying to have fun aren't being set up to be pummeled by superhuman hulks devoted to their sport, and to the extent there's any sort of physical differentiation among genders (which mostly is a tiny statistical variation utterly swamped by individual variation) those physical measurements seem like a good way of splitting up athletic-ability groups rather than using gender as a very crude proxy.
And there are definitely sports which do differentiate on these features (age and league are very common differentiators, especially in children's sports; weight classes are a thing in contact sports like boxing), but we still have gender-segregation as the big thing when all the claimed justifications for gender-segregation would be better justification for segregation on actual physical measurements or established talent level.
posted by jackbishop at 10:35 AM on April 16 [3 favorites]
There's also been yelling about trans women in darts both in England and at the World Darts Championship.
Are those even events where gender-segregation has been the norm? Why is the gender-presentation of a chess player remotely relevant to determining who they should be playing against?
I think in a hundred years people will think the concept of gender segregated sports is strange.
Every time trans-folks in sports comes up, I think of how weird it is that gender's regarded as a useful differentiation. In contrast, segregating sports by experience or age or league or weight or height all seem like reasonable ways to make sure that weedy little folks just trying to have fun aren't being set up to be pummeled by superhuman hulks devoted to their sport, and to the extent there's any sort of physical differentiation among genders (which mostly is a tiny statistical variation utterly swamped by individual variation) those physical measurements seem like a good way of splitting up athletic-ability groups rather than using gender as a very crude proxy.
And there are definitely sports which do differentiate on these features (age and league are very common differentiators, especially in children's sports; weight classes are a thing in contact sports like boxing), but we still have gender-segregation as the big thing when all the claimed justifications for gender-segregation would be better justification for segregation on actual physical measurements or established talent level.
posted by jackbishop at 10:35 AM on April 16 [3 favorites]
Not much of an athlete myself, but I wonder if there are some team sports that would work well for coed teams, allowing both transmen and transwomen a place to participate that even the conservatives wouldn’t argue with. I imagine cisgender men, women, and teens wanting to participate in these to show solidarity with trans fellow athletes, kind of like that nice story about the Catholics closing their curtains during the call to prayer to support their Muslim neighbors. It’s also possible that I don’t follow conservative arguments to know if they’d manage to find some objection to this.
posted by puffinaria at 10:42 AM on April 16
posted by puffinaria at 10:42 AM on April 16
It’s also possible that I don’t follow conservative arguments to know if they’d manage to find some objection to this.
They would manage to find an objection, yes.
posted by mittens at 10:44 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]
They would manage to find an objection, yes.
posted by mittens at 10:44 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]
wonder if there are some team sports that would work well for coed teams, allowing both trans men and trans women a place to participate that even the conservatives wouldn’t argue with
It's not about the sports. It's not even about trans people. It's about authoritarian control over which people deserve rights and power. Do not get sucked into this argument!!
There are valid conversations to have about how sport is segregated, like what jackbishop has listed a few of. But the moment you slide into ways to make "the conservatives" happy you are playing their game, and you have already lost. Remember who the real enemy is.
Unless you're a straight white cis dude with power, the only thing that separates "you" from "the other" is some rhetoric.
posted by phunniemee at 10:53 AM on April 16 [16 favorites]
It's not about the sports. It's not even about trans people. It's about authoritarian control over which people deserve rights and power. Do not get sucked into this argument!!
There are valid conversations to have about how sport is segregated, like what jackbishop has listed a few of. But the moment you slide into ways to make "the conservatives" happy you are playing their game, and you have already lost. Remember who the real enemy is.
Unless you're a straight white cis dude with power, the only thing that separates "you" from "the other" is some rhetoric.
posted by phunniemee at 10:53 AM on April 16 [16 favorites]
Yes! It seems like a solvable problem because it is solvable. We could choose to make a lot of changes to sports and sports culture that would benefit everyone.
Transphobes have no interest in solving the problem of making sports more fair, more inclusive, and getting the best performance from everyone in the sport. They largely have an interest in harming trans people, and this is a pretty easy way to do it.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:11 AM on April 16 [7 favorites]
Transphobes have no interest in solving the problem of making sports more fair, more inclusive, and getting the best performance from everyone in the sport. They largely have an interest in harming trans people, and this is a pretty easy way to do it.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:11 AM on April 16 [7 favorites]
dear lord, i can't believe i'm back and posting here.
phunniemee has very adequately described the actual deal above. the "controversy" about "transgender participation in sports" has been fully manufactured in the wake of conservatives losing on gay marriage and looking for a more effective wedge issue. trans people make a great wedge issue because there are not many of us and the idea of radical changes to the body make many people uneasy on a sort of precognitive level.
every time i read a well-meaning ding dong ollie in with a "HEY I DONT REALLY FOLLOW THIS ISSUE BUT I'VE BECOME COMPELLED TO DEVELOP AN OPINION IN THE LAST FIVE MINUTES BECAUSE I LACK BASIC CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS WITH RESPECT TO MORAL PANICS" i stare into the middle distance and call on buddha and mostly don't say anything but God Damn man, i have moved from agitated to kind of perversely curious about how any single person can take the sports shit seriously in the wake of a global backlash against us just wanting to fucking exist and get on with our day. i mean, really.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 11:13 AM on April 16 [31 favorites]
phunniemee has very adequately described the actual deal above. the "controversy" about "transgender participation in sports" has been fully manufactured in the wake of conservatives losing on gay marriage and looking for a more effective wedge issue. trans people make a great wedge issue because there are not many of us and the idea of radical changes to the body make many people uneasy on a sort of precognitive level.
every time i read a well-meaning ding dong ollie in with a "HEY I DONT REALLY FOLLOW THIS ISSUE BUT I'VE BECOME COMPELLED TO DEVELOP AN OPINION IN THE LAST FIVE MINUTES BECAUSE I LACK BASIC CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS WITH RESPECT TO MORAL PANICS" i stare into the middle distance and call on buddha and mostly don't say anything but God Damn man, i have moved from agitated to kind of perversely curious about how any single person can take the sports shit seriously in the wake of a global backlash against us just wanting to fucking exist and get on with our day. i mean, really.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 11:13 AM on April 16 [31 favorites]
"Courtesy of ICON." ICON, it turns out, is the "Independent Council on Women's Sports,"
So, ICOWS?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:14 AM on April 16 [1 favorite]
So, ICOWS?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:14 AM on April 16 [1 favorite]
team sports that would work well for coed teams
As a woman, I want to be able to post my successes on women's leaderboards (say, in cycling, on Strava or Zwift), to be paired up with other women in Aikido (a coed martial art, but women tend to group together in various situations - sometimes workshops, sometimes just by choice, sometimes as uke), or perhaps to join an amateur women's team of some sort at work or synagogue. I want to be able to lead services at a 'women's minyan' (mixed gender service, but led by women).
And whether such activities could or should be made coed is an issue I should not have to be the one to solve. Society can work it out someday if needed- but it is not a burden to be placed on trans women, simply because we are now more visible.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 11:31 AM on April 16 [13 favorites]
As a woman, I want to be able to post my successes on women's leaderboards (say, in cycling, on Strava or Zwift), to be paired up with other women in Aikido (a coed martial art, but women tend to group together in various situations - sometimes workshops, sometimes just by choice, sometimes as uke), or perhaps to join an amateur women's team of some sort at work or synagogue. I want to be able to lead services at a 'women's minyan' (mixed gender service, but led by women).
And whether such activities could or should be made coed is an issue I should not have to be the one to solve. Society can work it out someday if needed- but it is not a burden to be placed on trans women, simply because we are now more visible.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 11:31 AM on April 16 [13 favorites]
blnkfrnk: ""We need you to suffer from dysphoria, but also suffer from a lack of sports." "
The goal is to harass and drive them out of everything. Sports is a start.
I am so tired of the word trans making people react like a nuclear bomb has gone off and everyone becomes screaming go nuts insane every single time it comes up. I wish humans could just let other humans live in peace without being just like them, but clearly, this is not something our species will manage approximately ever.
I am also tired of these threads causing people to button.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:03 PM on April 16 [7 favorites]
The goal is to harass and drive them out of everything. Sports is a start.
I am so tired of the word trans making people react like a nuclear bomb has gone off and everyone becomes screaming go nuts insane every single time it comes up. I wish humans could just let other humans live in peace without being just like them, but clearly, this is not something our species will manage approximately ever.
I am also tired of these threads causing people to button.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:03 PM on April 16 [7 favorites]
This is just such right-wing bullshit. See the Jon Oliver episode posted upthread.
The number of transpersons competing in sports is miniscule. It's just a talking point/wedge.
I am an old, cis-het white guy, and I don't entirely get "trans". I am who I am, and have never thought much about what my gender is. (I do have an LGBTQ+ child, and another who was "trans" for a while).
Other people do though. And while I don't get it, my motto is "do what you want to do". Whether I can understand it or not. The fact that these young people are being subjected to this shit, makes me "SO ANGRY..."
This woman is a terrible religious freak.
You do you, and fuck anyone who tries to stop you.
posted by Windopaene at 3:26 PM on April 17 [2 favorites]
The number of transpersons competing in sports is miniscule. It's just a talking point/wedge.
I am an old, cis-het white guy, and I don't entirely get "trans". I am who I am, and have never thought much about what my gender is. (I do have an LGBTQ+ child, and another who was "trans" for a while).
Other people do though. And while I don't get it, my motto is "do what you want to do". Whether I can understand it or not. The fact that these young people are being subjected to this shit, makes me "SO ANGRY..."
This woman is a terrible religious freak.
You do you, and fuck anyone who tries to stop you.
posted by Windopaene at 3:26 PM on April 17 [2 favorites]
Why is the gender-presentation of a chess player remotely relevant to determining who they should be playing against?
[bbc:] How much influence has Russia had regarding these new regulations?
[bbc:] How much influence has Russia had regarding these new regulations?
Arkady Dvorkovich, who served as a Russian deputy prime minister between 2012 and 2018 under the presidency of Vladimir Putin, has been the president of Fide since October 2018.posted by HearHere at 4:12 PM on April 17 [3 favorites]
Putin's governments have introduced a series of anti-LGBTQ+ laws while he has been in office
I am an old, cis-het white guy, and I don't entirely get "trans". I am who I am, and have never thought much about what my gender is. (I do have an LGBTQ+ child, and another who was "trans" for a while).Windopaene, while I appreciate very much the overall message of acceptance in your comment (of which the part I have quoted is not representative), why is the second occurrence of "trans" in quotes? It seems dismissive, as it would also if you said that you had an "LGBTQ+" child. I hope that I am misreading it.
posted by It is regrettable that at 10:49 AM on April 19 [4 favorites]
I have been mulling over this deeply stupid event for a while, and hopefully no one will read this comment but I had to get it off my chest:
1. "The Cherry Blossom? Seriously?" was the reaction of a fencer friend when I told them about this. It's a regional, which is basically a crowded but well-refereed social event with some decent fencers that has been going on every year for a very long time. The points count for nothing. Well, you can fence the Division I-A national championships if you have enough regional points; the Division I-A is a consolation event for people who don't qualify for the real thing, which is Division I.
2. "A Black Card? Oh Noes?" was the further reaction. Fencers often get black carded, sometimes for refusal to fence and sometimes for, say, getting lost and not getting to the strip soon enough, or for refusing to shake hands. Drawing a black card is just an ordinary consequence. The media and the ill-intentioned supporters of the protesting fencer are acting like she got knifed.
3. I fenced competitively for a long time in women's events, despite starting in my 40s, and retired a couple of years back after winning World Veteran Championships several times. I have fenced and beaten men in mixed events, and even won a couple of the mixed events I fenced. I have also fenced trans women in women's events. There have only been a handful of trans women in my event (less than a handful, that I know of). I beat them consistently in spite of being a medium height asthmatic cis woman who looks like a little balloon in those unflattering white outfits. Fencing is a very weird sport. Yeah, people like to endlessly chew on whether the top women could beat the top men, and the answer is no, but who cares? Most people couldn't beat the top men. I have beaten many future members of the women's US Olympic team, but only when they were thirteen years old.
4. The one trans woman who consistently wins Over-70 World Championships in epee does it for one reason: she has fenced a really long time, including before they let women fence epee, before she transitioned. There was a lot of cranky complaining when she started entering women's events because she had so much experience. Yeah, she's tall, but so are a lot of the epeeists. In fact, I was watching a bout between two over-50 women epeeists at US National Championships and another spectator confidently asserted to me that one of them was the trans fencer. She wasn't. She was just tall.
5. It was a nasty, selfish, unnecessary act in a tiny sport that already gets very little respect, though for a while there it was seen as a way to get your kid into a top college so you have a fair number of really terrified, anxious parents (short answer, it used to sort of work because coaches could put a word in for you; long answer, college fencing is, for the most part, less respected than ultimate Frisbee, and costs more to fund. My kid's college coach put in a word for them when they were applying, but didn't think it would help. It did. My kid got a $1,000 scholarship. Big whoop).
6. Did I mention how very rare trans fencers are? And that this is fuel for the anxious and privileged parents who put their kids in fencing hoping it will get them into an Ivy over all the bizarre number of equally qualified kids who are basically entering the lottery? Ivies that really don't care about fencing?
But I repeat myself.
posted by Peach at 6:15 PM on April 19 [8 favorites]
1. "The Cherry Blossom? Seriously?" was the reaction of a fencer friend when I told them about this. It's a regional, which is basically a crowded but well-refereed social event with some decent fencers that has been going on every year for a very long time. The points count for nothing. Well, you can fence the Division I-A national championships if you have enough regional points; the Division I-A is a consolation event for people who don't qualify for the real thing, which is Division I.
2. "A Black Card? Oh Noes?" was the further reaction. Fencers often get black carded, sometimes for refusal to fence and sometimes for, say, getting lost and not getting to the strip soon enough, or for refusing to shake hands. Drawing a black card is just an ordinary consequence. The media and the ill-intentioned supporters of the protesting fencer are acting like she got knifed.
3. I fenced competitively for a long time in women's events, despite starting in my 40s, and retired a couple of years back after winning World Veteran Championships several times. I have fenced and beaten men in mixed events, and even won a couple of the mixed events I fenced. I have also fenced trans women in women's events. There have only been a handful of trans women in my event (less than a handful, that I know of). I beat them consistently in spite of being a medium height asthmatic cis woman who looks like a little balloon in those unflattering white outfits. Fencing is a very weird sport. Yeah, people like to endlessly chew on whether the top women could beat the top men, and the answer is no, but who cares? Most people couldn't beat the top men. I have beaten many future members of the women's US Olympic team, but only when they were thirteen years old.
4. The one trans woman who consistently wins Over-70 World Championships in epee does it for one reason: she has fenced a really long time, including before they let women fence epee, before she transitioned. There was a lot of cranky complaining when she started entering women's events because she had so much experience. Yeah, she's tall, but so are a lot of the epeeists. In fact, I was watching a bout between two over-50 women epeeists at US National Championships and another spectator confidently asserted to me that one of them was the trans fencer. She wasn't. She was just tall.
5. It was a nasty, selfish, unnecessary act in a tiny sport that already gets very little respect, though for a while there it was seen as a way to get your kid into a top college so you have a fair number of really terrified, anxious parents (short answer, it used to sort of work because coaches could put a word in for you; long answer, college fencing is, for the most part, less respected than ultimate Frisbee, and costs more to fund. My kid's college coach put in a word for them when they were applying, but didn't think it would help. It did. My kid got a $1,000 scholarship. Big whoop).
6. Did I mention how very rare trans fencers are? And that this is fuel for the anxious and privileged parents who put their kids in fencing hoping it will get them into an Ivy over all the bizarre number of equally qualified kids who are basically entering the lottery? Ivies that really don't care about fencing?
But I repeat myself.
posted by Peach at 6:15 PM on April 19 [8 favorites]
If there is really a problem with men sneaking into women's sports in order to win a trophy or medal, then there must be a problem with women sneaking into men's sports in order to get better playing facilities, more publicity, more lucrative endorsement opportunities, etc. But since women are so clearly inferior to men in athletic endeavors, then any competitor who loses in a men's contest seems suspect to me. If you don't win, you should have to submit to a physical exam to prove you are male, and additional genetic and endocrine testing just in case. Maybe it could go even further and we could have gender relegation. if you compete in the men's division but consistently lose, you would have to compete against women. And a woman who consistently wins would get bumped up to the men's division. How much more fair can you get!
(Yes, I am being 100% facetious here. I would lose interest in sports entirely these days if it weren't for Jon Bois.)
posted by TedW at 9:12 PM on April 19 [2 favorites]
(Yes, I am being 100% facetious here. I would lose interest in sports entirely these days if it weren't for Jon Bois.)
posted by TedW at 9:12 PM on April 19 [2 favorites]
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posted by mephron at 9:46 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]