Gasp!
November 15, 2002 6:02 PM Subscribe
Gasp! The mask comes off.
Yahoo! posted an even closer shot of one of the pics. His nose is especially frightening.
posted by gummi at 6:07 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by gummi at 6:07 PM on November 15, 2002
First let me say that we've all seen that pic and this thread is doomed.
Now that I have that out of the way, I have to say that it is really sad to see what this man has had done to his face. His plastic surgeon should have his license yanked.
What I would really like to know is what started Jackson's spiral into total weirdity? He wasn't always that bizarre.
posted by konolia at 6:09 PM on November 15, 2002
Now that I have that out of the way, I have to say that it is really sad to see what this man has had done to his face. His plastic surgeon should have his license yanked.
What I would really like to know is what started Jackson's spiral into total weirdity? He wasn't always that bizarre.
posted by konolia at 6:09 PM on November 15, 2002
There's a link on that page with a frightening series of images.
posted by Espoo2 at 6:10 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by Espoo2 at 6:10 PM on November 15, 2002
i thought i'd come to metafilter one last time before bed. now i'm gonna dream about that monster.
posted by Lusy P Hur at 6:25 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by Lusy P Hur at 6:25 PM on November 15, 2002
Somehow, before clicking I thought, "This is going to be a photo of Michael Jackson's hideous face."
posted by tweebiscuit at 6:28 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by tweebiscuit at 6:28 PM on November 15, 2002
That's right. I mean, you knew he was bad, he was bad, really really bad, you knew it.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:30 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:30 PM on November 15, 2002
Good Lord, he is so cute. I swear, if I was 8.....
posted by bradth27 at 6:42 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by bradth27 at 6:42 PM on November 15, 2002
Personally, I don't think this is to do with fame. Just as Muhammad Ali would have been the world's greatest garbage man, Michael Jackson would have been the world's most monstrously weird chartered surveyor.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:50 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:50 PM on November 15, 2002
What I would really like to know is what started Jackson's spiral into total weirdity? He wasn't always that bizarre.
Read his autobiography, Moonwalk. It's an interesting read. And although I agree that he's weird and that his plastic surgery is a mess, the meanness of people discussing him is even more fucked up than his nose.
posted by elvissinatra at 6:56 PM on November 15, 2002
Read his autobiography, Moonwalk. It's an interesting read. And although I agree that he's weird and that his plastic surgery is a mess, the meanness of people discussing him is even more fucked up than his nose.
posted by elvissinatra at 6:56 PM on November 15, 2002
Now that his transformation into an anime character is complete, I wonder what lies in store for him. I'm guessing 'tentacle monster'.
posted by Danelope at 6:59 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by Danelope at 6:59 PM on November 15, 2002
Jackson has transcend all celebrity fucked-upedness, beyond Elvis, past Howard Hughes into a get-back-in-your-jar-of-formaldehyde level of hyper distorted reality.
I, for one, welcome our new death's head overlord.
posted by Zombie at 7:01 PM on November 15, 2002
I, for one, welcome our new death's head overlord.
posted by Zombie at 7:01 PM on November 15, 2002
Strangely enough, I was reading the Weekly World News (as silly a tabloid as there is - I believe the two cover stories were a 300 lb. cat and 'Bat Boy Missing') a few weeks back, and they had gotten a 'computer expert' to age Michael Jackson's original face based on a photograph of him as a child - like what they do to find missing kids years after the fact. The idea was to compare what he would've looked like at his current age without plastic surgery. He was actually fairly handsome in the artificially aged photo. They'd plastered the most recent picture of him available then next to it, and the contrast was scary, to say the least. I don't know why he did it, but whatever the reason was, I don't think it involved looking like _that_ at the end.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 7:07 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 7:07 PM on November 15, 2002
elvissinatra: This man owns the publishing rights to the works of the Beatles. He is a rich and successful man.
In the unlikely event that he does have vitligo, we are still at a loss as to explain his more... structural changes. This is the man who sang that it don't matter if you're black or white, and over a long period of time spent his riches transforming himself from one into the other. He is worthy of critical discussion!
posted by Pretty_Generic at 7:08 PM on November 15, 2002
In the unlikely event that he does have vitligo, we are still at a loss as to explain his more... structural changes. This is the man who sang that it don't matter if you're black or white, and over a long period of time spent his riches transforming himself from one into the other. He is worthy of critical discussion!
posted by Pretty_Generic at 7:08 PM on November 15, 2002
Gets me HOT. Michael Jackson> Started as poor black boy and became wealthy white woman.
posted by Postroad at 7:18 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by Postroad at 7:18 PM on November 15, 2002
i believe this is a clear example of why plastic surgery and body modification just doesn't work with me so well.
Michael Jackson will always rule though...no matter what happens to his appearance (decaying and so sad, even sadder is how much his apperance is effecting his life...that's soceity for you--i'm not saying i'm any better though), you know it's true... that he'll always rule that is, in case you got lost along the way there.
posted by prescribed life at 7:36 PM on November 15, 2002
Michael Jackson will always rule though...no matter what happens to his appearance (decaying and so sad, even sadder is how much his apperance is effecting his life...that's soceity for you--i'm not saying i'm any better though), you know it's true... that he'll always rule that is, in case you got lost along the way there.
posted by prescribed life at 7:36 PM on November 15, 2002
he does have some mad issues though.
posted by prescribed life at 7:37 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by prescribed life at 7:37 PM on November 15, 2002
And to think poor Helena Bonham Carter had to put all that makeup on for Planet of the Apes when all Michael Jackson had to do was take off his mask.
posted by divrsional at 8:06 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by divrsional at 8:06 PM on November 15, 2002
The man could write, the man could sing, and the man could fuckin' dance (Still can all three I assume)!!! Watch any modern video and they don't show the performer's moves for more than 2/3 second at a time, because they got good moves, but can't pull it all together, no talent!! You could hold the camera on MJ and he would kick your ass.
Anyways, all freakishness aside, you gotta admit, he's the (if not at least one of the) best. Period. (and I'm not even that big a fan of pop music) But yeah, you gotta wonder what brings someone to do that.. and as someone else said, you can bet the end goal certainly wasn't this, which makes it sad.
posted by imaswinger at 8:10 PM on November 15, 2002
Anyways, all freakishness aside, you gotta admit, he's the (if not at least one of the) best. Period. (and I'm not even that big a fan of pop music) But yeah, you gotta wonder what brings someone to do that.. and as someone else said, you can bet the end goal certainly wasn't this, which makes it sad.
posted by imaswinger at 8:10 PM on November 15, 2002
My LP of "Thiller" was stolen by some inner-city middle-school student from my music-appreciation class. Long ago. I used to like him. And, later, Prince. (Monday I see Beck in concert.)
But, too sad, to see what has happened to MJackson. Sickness not too dislike our sicknesses, but writ large in the media.
posted by kozad at 8:16 PM on November 15, 2002
But, too sad, to see what has happened to MJackson. Sickness not too dislike our sicknesses, but writ large in the media.
posted by kozad at 8:16 PM on November 15, 2002
So much for not judging people by their appearances.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 8:22 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by MiguelCardoso at 8:22 PM on November 15, 2002
It's a little sobering to me that although it often seems these days that science can do anything - this is the age of wonders as well as horrors, after all - it still isn't good enough to fix the plastic surgery disaster that is the face of one of the richer men on the planet. Bit of a let down, really. I'd love to see him make the transformation into something weirder and somehow transhuman - why the hell not, at this stage? It's sad but instructive to see him just sorta...crumble.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:31 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:31 PM on November 15, 2002
A Photographic History of Michael Jackson's Face
Enjoy!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:37 PM on November 15, 2002
Enjoy!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:37 PM on November 15, 2002
So much for not judging people by their appearances.
Yes... but isn't it a bit different when you are speaking of an appearance someone has deliberately crafted? Is it unfair for people to make inferences based not on someone's natural appearance but on the results of concious choice? I think it is fair - which doesn't mean that such inferences are remotely close to any "truth" or are otherwise not full of shit.
My feeling is that if someone has repeatedly had his or her face carved on by a surgeon or surgeons whose results are as unusual as these, then he or she has elected to become fair game for speculation.
posted by John Smallberries at 8:38 PM on November 15, 2002
Yes... but isn't it a bit different when you are speaking of an appearance someone has deliberately crafted? Is it unfair for people to make inferences based not on someone's natural appearance but on the results of concious choice? I think it is fair - which doesn't mean that such inferences are remotely close to any "truth" or are otherwise not full of shit.
My feeling is that if someone has repeatedly had his or her face carved on by a surgeon or surgeons whose results are as unusual as these, then he or she has elected to become fair game for speculation.
posted by John Smallberries at 8:38 PM on November 15, 2002
I just have the image of Michael Jackson, riding rollercoasters alone in the middle of the night in his amusement park...
posted by ph00dz at 9:02 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by ph00dz at 9:02 PM on November 15, 2002
But MiguelCardoso...he *made* his appearance. I would agree that making cruel comments vis a vis the reconstructive surgery of a burn victim, or even moderate-bad acne scarring like Eddie Olmos would be the height of vile comportment.
But MJ made this face. It was chosen. It was an act of, at the very least, repudiation of all the signifiers of "blackness." You're gonna tell me that's not deeply fucked up?
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:26 PM on November 15, 2002
But MJ made this face. It was chosen. It was an act of, at the very least, repudiation of all the signifiers of "blackness." You're gonna tell me that's not deeply fucked up?
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:26 PM on November 15, 2002
sorry JohnSmallberries. On preview, and with hyperactive trigger finger...
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:27 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:27 PM on November 15, 2002
I was thinking pretty much what stavros was. If MJ doesn't have enough money to fix his face ... yikes.
I mean, that woman that was burned in the WTC sky lobby looks better than this.
posted by dhartung at 9:29 PM on November 15, 2002
I mean, that woman that was burned in the WTC sky lobby looks better than this.
posted by dhartung at 9:29 PM on November 15, 2002
From the article:
1988 - age 30. At the pinnacle of his popularity... Critics cruelly comment that only in America can you be born a black man and end up as a white woman
posted by stbalbach at 9:40 PM on November 15, 2002
1988 - age 30. At the pinnacle of his popularity... Critics cruelly comment that only in America can you be born a black man and end up as a white woman
posted by stbalbach at 9:40 PM on November 15, 2002
"What did you do to michael jackson?!"
Gary, Indiana awaits its Mike Davis--the man who can narrate the intertwined shadows of fame and steel mills...
posted by minnesotaj at 9:57 PM on November 15, 2002
Gary, Indiana awaits its Mike Davis--the man who can narrate the intertwined shadows of fame and steel mills...
posted by minnesotaj at 9:57 PM on November 15, 2002
on my rounds around the Internet today i kept running across links to that picture.
i agree with Miguel. the way everyone is ripping into the poor man just because of his looks is rather disheartening. doesn't anyone else realize that Jackson doesn't "see" himself the way we see him? i'm not saying i can begin to guess what he does see, but it certainly isn't that.
to clarify a bit - the situation is rather like what an anorexic would see in the mirror. s/he sees a huge, ugly fat person and we see an inmate of a concentration camp. and believe me you, i know the feeling. i know what i see in the mirror is quite different than how others see me. i can't say those people are wrong, because several people have told me the same thing. it doesn't change what i see in the mirror, but it lets me know my vision may be a wee bit skewed
one person remarked (i'm paraphrasing), "doesn't he have any friends to tell him he looks bizarre?". obviously, he doesn't. Jackson is surrounded by people on his payroll that tell him what they think he wants to hear. that's pretty damned sad by itself.
before you say "wah, wah, wah, he's Michael Jackson, richer than Croseus, blah, blah, blah" money can't buy happiness. yeah, i know that's trite, blah, blah, but oh-so-very true and y'all damn well know it.
so give the guy a break. okay?
posted by deborah at 10:51 PM on November 15, 2002
i agree with Miguel. the way everyone is ripping into the poor man just because of his looks is rather disheartening. doesn't anyone else realize that Jackson doesn't "see" himself the way we see him? i'm not saying i can begin to guess what he does see, but it certainly isn't that.
to clarify a bit - the situation is rather like what an anorexic would see in the mirror. s/he sees a huge, ugly fat person and we see an inmate of a concentration camp. and believe me you, i know the feeling. i know what i see in the mirror is quite different than how others see me. i can't say those people are wrong, because several people have told me the same thing. it doesn't change what i see in the mirror, but it lets me know my vision may be a wee bit skewed
one person remarked (i'm paraphrasing), "doesn't he have any friends to tell him he looks bizarre?". obviously, he doesn't. Jackson is surrounded by people on his payroll that tell him what they think he wants to hear. that's pretty damned sad by itself.
before you say "wah, wah, wah, he's Michael Jackson, richer than Croseus, blah, blah, blah" money can't buy happiness. yeah, i know that's trite, blah, blah, but oh-so-very true and y'all damn well know it.
so give the guy a break. okay?
posted by deborah at 10:51 PM on November 15, 2002
The man has extreme body dismorphic disease, a form of obsessive compulsive disorder. People with this disorder do not see in the mirror what the rest of us see when we view them. Its a brain chemistry problem that causes them to focus on some perceived imperfection of the face or head. They cannot stop thinking about it. It becomes debilitating at some point. Some anorexics have a very similar condition when they look in the mirror. They also do not see the skeletal image that is painfully obvious to everyone else. Many many of the people with this disorder seek relief through plastic surgery. Sadly, there are surgeons out there willing to fulfill their wishes. We are told that mirrors do not lie. To people with this disorder the mirror is the enemy. In a much smaller scale of this I was once told why you see so many older women with purple hair by a friend who was a hair dresser. According to her, these ladies loose their ability to see a certain amount of color. When they see their hair they perceive it as a perfectly normal shade. I guess I am trying to say that is such a shame that we cannot see ourselves the way others do. I also want to say that I think Michael is tragic. Maybe he has done this to his own face, but he was merely taken advantage of by some unscrupulous so called medical practioners. If we are going to make disparaging remarks lets aim them at those who ever they are that perpetrated this against one so obviously suffering from at the very least extremely low self esteem. Michael's predicament is just sad sad sad. Such a talented human being whose been forced into near obscurity because of this.
posted by SweetIceT at 11:06 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by SweetIceT at 11:06 PM on November 15, 2002
Nice posts deborah and SweetIceT.
posted by crasspastor at 11:09 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by crasspastor at 11:09 PM on November 15, 2002
This reminds me quite a bit of Dr. Phibes' reconstructed face.
Come to think of it, Dr. Phibes was played by Vincent Price, who did a voice-over in the middle of Michael Jackson's song "Thriller". Coincidence?
posted by Zulujines at 11:12 PM on November 15, 2002
Come to think of it, Dr. Phibes was played by Vincent Price, who did a voice-over in the middle of Michael Jackson's song "Thriller". Coincidence?
posted by Zulujines at 11:12 PM on November 15, 2002
Michael's photograph at the Addams family Minelli wedding takes the cake.
posted by hama7 at 11:40 PM on November 15, 2002
posted by hama7 at 11:40 PM on November 15, 2002
Has anyone ever seen this? I apologize if it is nested here somewhere...I don't think i saw it...but it is interesting.
History of Michael Jackson's face
posted by RubberHen at 12:04 AM on November 16, 2002
History of Michael Jackson's face
posted by RubberHen at 12:04 AM on November 16, 2002
I'm so lucky to be fat and ugly.
It also seems I'm lucky that I'm not rich or famous.
Apparently another good Friday for me. ;)
posted by dglynn at 1:15 AM on November 16, 2002
It also seems I'm lucky that I'm not rich or famous.
Apparently another good Friday for me. ;)
posted by dglynn at 1:15 AM on November 16, 2002
Anyway, MJ isn't even doing that well monetarily at this point. He owes Sony millions upon millions of dollars, to such a degree that they are considering seizing the Beatles catalog that he does own - he put that down as collateral for a loan from his label several years ago. Consider that his 30 million cost for Invincible is recoupable off of royalties and you can see how deeply in trouble he's in.
posted by Spacelegoman at 1:19 AM on November 16, 2002
posted by Spacelegoman at 1:19 AM on November 16, 2002
Nice posts deborah and SweetIceT.
Awww... There are always those who will come to the rescue just because they can.
posted by Witty at 1:24 AM on November 16, 2002
Awww... There are always those who will come to the rescue just because they can.
posted by Witty at 1:24 AM on November 16, 2002
Awww... There are always those who will come to the rescue just because they can.
What? Because I'm some glittery gloved mefi poster?
Their posts were interesting in the ways other posts aren't.
posted by crasspastor at 1:48 AM on November 16, 2002
What? Because I'm some glittery gloved mefi poster?
Their posts were interesting in the ways other posts aren't.
posted by crasspastor at 1:48 AM on November 16, 2002
People with this disorder do not see in the mirror what the rest of us see when we view them.
Yeah it's sad when something happens in your life(usually perpetuated by a parent) that causes your self esteem to be so thrown out of whack that every day you look in the mirror and you hate what you see and wish you could change it. Then add fear of aging on top of it. Michael Jackson isn't the only one who suffers from this imagined lack of control. He wants more than anything to feel normal and good about himself. But in his mind he just doesn't know how to get a grip on it so he keeps on and on trying to fix it and winds up with a big mess.
I see the pictures and it just makes me want to cry for him because the worst punishment he can suffer is to be forced to display himself when he knows he looks terrible. That's why he wants to wear the mask. And he is right knowing most of us are laughing at him. Cruel cruel people.
posted by oh posey at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2002
Yeah it's sad when something happens in your life(usually perpetuated by a parent) that causes your self esteem to be so thrown out of whack that every day you look in the mirror and you hate what you see and wish you could change it. Then add fear of aging on top of it. Michael Jackson isn't the only one who suffers from this imagined lack of control. He wants more than anything to feel normal and good about himself. But in his mind he just doesn't know how to get a grip on it so he keeps on and on trying to fix it and winds up with a big mess.
I see the pictures and it just makes me want to cry for him because the worst punishment he can suffer is to be forced to display himself when he knows he looks terrible. That's why he wants to wear the mask. And he is right knowing most of us are laughing at him. Cruel cruel people.
posted by oh posey at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2002
Deborah, sweetpastor, oh posey, et al: Give the guy a break? I want to know why he's not shunned in polite company; why he's not treated with the bald revulsion of OJ.
Forget the face. The fact remains this is a fellow who, for all intents and purposes, bought his way out of a pedophilia charge.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:43 AM on November 16, 2002
Forget the face. The fact remains this is a fellow who, for all intents and purposes, bought his way out of a pedophilia charge.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:43 AM on November 16, 2002
Forget the face.
Except this thread is about his face and not his sexual problems.
posted by oh posey at 8:46 AM on November 16, 2002
Except this thread is about his face and not his sexual problems.
posted by oh posey at 8:46 AM on November 16, 2002
You all realize that he has a bandage on his nose, don't you?
posted by hootch at 9:32 AM on November 16, 2002
posted by hootch at 9:32 AM on November 16, 2002
History of Michael Jackson's face
I think everything started to go horribly wrong somewhere betwen '85 and '87.
posted by crunchland at 9:37 AM on November 16, 2002
I think everything started to go horribly wrong somewhere betwen '85 and '87.
posted by crunchland at 9:37 AM on November 16, 2002
I question whether he's being taken advantage of - people with body dysmorphic disorder will go to extraordinary lengths to change their perceived flaws (and he's got more ability to act on it than most people do). I'm sure his surgeons have explained the risks to him, and I'm sure he doesn't care (or he would have stopped by now). You can't force someone into therapy and expect it to be effective, especially if they don't even accept that they have a problem. And I'm sure the fact that his dad called him "bignose" fed into all this.
Oh, and lupus_yonderboy, I'm no fan of the man, but you might want to do a bit of research - the "pedophila charge" had next to no evidence backing it up and was pretty clearly an extortion attempt (not least because of how quickly the father backed down when he got the green he was after). It's amazing how people are so quick to believe ill of someone, especially when the "ill" is something abhorrent and sticky, and when the "someone" is already perceived as strange.
posted by biscotti at 9:52 AM on November 16, 2002
Oh, and lupus_yonderboy, I'm no fan of the man, but you might want to do a bit of research - the "pedophila charge" had next to no evidence backing it up and was pretty clearly an extortion attempt (not least because of how quickly the father backed down when he got the green he was after). It's amazing how people are so quick to believe ill of someone, especially when the "ill" is something abhorrent and sticky, and when the "someone" is already perceived as strange.
posted by biscotti at 9:52 AM on November 16, 2002
hm. i thought people were innocent until proven guilty. i guess i was wrong about that, eh?
and bad me. i am so sorry for pitying someone who apparently has mental problems. i'll have to go back to being a heartless bitch.
oh, wait a second. i've never been a heartless bitch. lessons, anyone?
posted by deborah at 11:09 AM on November 16, 2002
and bad me. i am so sorry for pitying someone who apparently has mental problems. i'll have to go back to being a heartless bitch.
oh, wait a second. i've never been a heartless bitch. lessons, anyone?
posted by deborah at 11:09 AM on November 16, 2002
i am so sorry for pitying someone who apparently has mental problems.
I'm with you, deborah; I just feel sad when I think about MJ now. I don't think there's any "apparently" about his mental problems.
Its a brain chemistry problem that causes them to focus on some perceived imperfection of the face or head.
I get your larger point, SweetIceT, but it's not at all clear that body dysmorphic disorder is always caused by a chemical imbalance. Here's one specialist: "There is little definitive research on the causes of BDD and the factors that predispose a person to BDD." Some doctors also see a correlation with higher socioeconomic status and increased parental expectations. I think the disorder is very real, don't get me wrong, but I don't think we know what causes it. It might even turn out to be chemical for some folks and sociopsychological for others.
posted by mediareport at 12:06 PM on November 16, 2002
I'm with you, deborah; I just feel sad when I think about MJ now. I don't think there's any "apparently" about his mental problems.
Its a brain chemistry problem that causes them to focus on some perceived imperfection of the face or head.
I get your larger point, SweetIceT, but it's not at all clear that body dysmorphic disorder is always caused by a chemical imbalance. Here's one specialist: "There is little definitive research on the causes of BDD and the factors that predispose a person to BDD." Some doctors also see a correlation with higher socioeconomic status and increased parental expectations. I think the disorder is very real, don't get me wrong, but I don't think we know what causes it. It might even turn out to be chemical for some folks and sociopsychological for others.
posted by mediareport at 12:06 PM on November 16, 2002
Yeah, I read about the supposed pedophilia stuff and you are right, the evidence just didn't wash. It's easy to ruin a reputation...maybe that is when it really all began to fall apart.
I do feel like he has some sort of mental disorder. The sad thing is, that it is probably treatable, but the people around him probably don't give a rat's patootie.
I remember when he was a little boy (he and I are the same age) and this all truly truly is heartbreaking. And as much as Elizabeth Taylor is supposed to be his friend, you would think SHE could get him some help!
posted by konolia at 12:07 PM on November 16, 2002
I do feel like he has some sort of mental disorder. The sad thing is, that it is probably treatable, but the people around him probably don't give a rat's patootie.
I remember when he was a little boy (he and I are the same age) and this all truly truly is heartbreaking. And as much as Elizabeth Taylor is supposed to be his friend, you would think SHE could get him some help!
posted by konolia at 12:07 PM on November 16, 2002
Yay, DrudgeFilter™!
posted by Zurishaddai at 1:30 PM on November 16, 2002
posted by Zurishaddai at 1:30 PM on November 16, 2002
What reliable source ever stated that MJ HAS "body dysmorphic disorder"?
posted by DBAPaul at 1:34 PM on November 16, 2002
posted by DBAPaul at 1:34 PM on November 16, 2002
I had never heard of body dysmorphic disorder before reading this thread but it would not be hard for someone who has it to recognize it in someone else.
posted by oh posey at 2:37 PM on November 16, 2002
posted by oh posey at 2:37 PM on November 16, 2002
konolia, i feel the same way--when i think of the Jackson 5, and even the "Off the Wall" years (that was THE sweet 16 album that year for everyone i knew)---i could just cry...
I think people who didn't grow up with him just see him as some freak...
posted by amberglow at 2:45 PM on November 16, 2002
I think people who didn't grow up with him just see him as some freak...
posted by amberglow at 2:45 PM on November 16, 2002
What reliable source ever stated that MJ HAS "body dysmorphic disorder"?
None that I know of, it's an assumption based on a strong correlation between the symptoms of BDD and the available evidence (I'd also point out that the vast majority of mental illnesses are diagnosed this way anyway (although not at a distance, by lay people, like we're doing here), there aren't many which have reliable tests to prove their presence, but this in no way proves that MJ has BDD, it just seems like a reasonable educated guess). BDD or not, it seems reasonable to assume that he has some form of mental disorder which causes him to continue damaging himself this way.
posted by biscotti at 3:32 PM on November 16, 2002
None that I know of, it's an assumption based on a strong correlation between the symptoms of BDD and the available evidence (I'd also point out that the vast majority of mental illnesses are diagnosed this way anyway (although not at a distance, by lay people, like we're doing here), there aren't many which have reliable tests to prove their presence, but this in no way proves that MJ has BDD, it just seems like a reasonable educated guess). BDD or not, it seems reasonable to assume that he has some form of mental disorder which causes him to continue damaging himself this way.
posted by biscotti at 3:32 PM on November 16, 2002
there aren't many which have reliable tests to prove their presence, but this in no way proves that MJ has BDD, it just seems like a reasonable educated guess).
psychiatric disorders are not diseases, at least not in the way that physical diseases are. They're not caused by the presence of bacteria or a virus, and they don't have obvious physical manifestations. A person is diagnosed as "depressed" because they're really sad a lot of the time. Yeah, we make it sound more professional and medical and stuff, but what it comes down to is a person with experience talking about moods asks enough questions to get a sense of how sad someone is how much of the time, and makes an assessment based on that. Body Dismorphic Disorder is the same sort of thing, and has been recognized for even less time. Mental illnesses used to just be considered negative personality traits; now we're thinking people have less control over these things than one might wish, and we're classifying them as disorders, but that doesn't mean you can take a blood test to come to a conclusion.
Anyway, it seems pretty clear MJ's not in a good place; even for all his talent and money I doubt many would want to trade places with him. He looks better in that first picture than in any of the subsequent ones... I wonder what he thinks now, or what he's thought along the way. He almost comes across as some kind of performance artist, like that french woman who's had surgery done on camera ? forgot her name... anyway. Yeah, he may as well have some kind of bird beak attached now and just go off on an alien tangent...
posted by mdn at 4:22 PM on November 16, 2002
psychiatric disorders are not diseases, at least not in the way that physical diseases are. They're not caused by the presence of bacteria or a virus, and they don't have obvious physical manifestations. A person is diagnosed as "depressed" because they're really sad a lot of the time. Yeah, we make it sound more professional and medical and stuff, but what it comes down to is a person with experience talking about moods asks enough questions to get a sense of how sad someone is how much of the time, and makes an assessment based on that. Body Dismorphic Disorder is the same sort of thing, and has been recognized for even less time. Mental illnesses used to just be considered negative personality traits; now we're thinking people have less control over these things than one might wish, and we're classifying them as disorders, but that doesn't mean you can take a blood test to come to a conclusion.
Anyway, it seems pretty clear MJ's not in a good place; even for all his talent and money I doubt many would want to trade places with him. He looks better in that first picture than in any of the subsequent ones... I wonder what he thinks now, or what he's thought along the way. He almost comes across as some kind of performance artist, like that french woman who's had surgery done on camera ? forgot her name... anyway. Yeah, he may as well have some kind of bird beak attached now and just go off on an alien tangent...
posted by mdn at 4:22 PM on November 16, 2002
he may as well have some kind of bird beak attached
Like this?
posted by languagehat at 4:35 PM on November 16, 2002
Like this?
posted by languagehat at 4:35 PM on November 16, 2002
...psychiatric disorders are not diseases, at least not in the way that physical diseases are. They're not caused by the presence of bacteria or a virus,
To be clear, that was more or less the point I was trying to make in the comment you quoted.
posted by biscotti at 7:00 PM on November 16, 2002
To be clear, that was more or less the point I was trying to make in the comment you quoted.
posted by biscotti at 7:00 PM on November 16, 2002
Jeebus, that "white woman" meme gets funnier every damn time I hear it!
It's as though he has bristles and vibrates, or something.
posted by britain at 7:38 PM on November 16, 2002
It's as though he has bristles and vibrates, or something.
posted by britain at 7:38 PM on November 16, 2002
Let me get this straight. This sequined glove, it vibrates?
mdn: Mental illnesses used to just be considered negative personality traits; now we're thinking people have less control over these things than one might wish, and we're classifying them as disorders, but that doesn't mean you can take a blood test to come to a conclusion.
For all its flaws, Peter Kramer's Listening to Prozac makes an interesting point; mental illnesses are often diagnosed in reverse -- i.e., the disorder is identified based on what drug(s) make it go away.
My following examples are intentionally crude, but I wonder how much of that actually goes on...something along the lines of "Prozac makes you feel better, Prozac is indicated for major depression, ergo, you had a diagnosis of major depression." (or conversely, "you didn't respond to Xanax, Xanax is indicated for anxiety, therefore your problem isn't anxiety.)
Given some of the mental health "professionals" out there, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this model is followed a lot of the time.
posted by Vidiot at 9:31 PM on November 16, 2002
mdn: Mental illnesses used to just be considered negative personality traits; now we're thinking people have less control over these things than one might wish, and we're classifying them as disorders, but that doesn't mean you can take a blood test to come to a conclusion.
For all its flaws, Peter Kramer's Listening to Prozac makes an interesting point; mental illnesses are often diagnosed in reverse -- i.e., the disorder is identified based on what drug(s) make it go away.
My following examples are intentionally crude, but I wonder how much of that actually goes on...something along the lines of "Prozac makes you feel better, Prozac is indicated for major depression, ergo, you had a diagnosis of major depression." (or conversely, "you didn't respond to Xanax, Xanax is indicated for anxiety, therefore your problem isn't anxiety.)
Given some of the mental health "professionals" out there, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this model is followed a lot of the time.
posted by Vidiot at 9:31 PM on November 16, 2002
MJ isn't the only one encouraging us to define or rethink our ideas about surgery, beauty, and body image.
Gasp! This artist has had a series of surgeries ('performances') during which she obtained the nose of a Fontainebleau sculpture of Diana, the mouth of Boucher's Europa, Mona Lisa's forehead, the chin of Botticelli's Venus, and the eyes of Gérôme's Psyche -- resurrecting herself as St. Orlan. Now she's even weirder. shocking images here!
posted by priyanga at 11:27 PM on November 16, 2002
Gasp! This artist has had a series of surgeries ('performances') during which she obtained the nose of a Fontainebleau sculpture of Diana, the mouth of Boucher's Europa, Mona Lisa's forehead, the chin of Botticelli's Venus, and the eyes of Gérôme's Psyche -- resurrecting herself as St. Orlan. Now she's even weirder. shocking images here!
posted by priyanga at 11:27 PM on November 16, 2002
I find myself unable to shed a single tear or squeeze one drop of pity out of my heart for him. He has had unbelievable opportunities in life to mold his life and if it is all turning to crumbled bone and scarred flesh-- that is his choice.
My unsolicited advice for The Gloved one is to sell off that Loony Bin he lives in that is draining him financially and enter a monastery a la Leonard Cohen and Cat Stevens. Perhaps in solitude and reflection he can find some inner peace which he so clearly needs.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:43 PM on November 17, 2002
My unsolicited advice for The Gloved one is to sell off that Loony Bin he lives in that is draining him financially and enter a monastery a la Leonard Cohen and Cat Stevens. Perhaps in solitude and reflection he can find some inner peace which he so clearly needs.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:43 PM on November 17, 2002
life consists of the choices we make. some people are ill-equipped to make the right ones.
as MJ is harming only himself and i'm an imperfect person myself - i refuse to cast stones.
posted by deborah at 12:53 PM on November 17, 2002
as MJ is harming only himself and i'm an imperfect person myself - i refuse to cast stones.
posted by deborah at 12:53 PM on November 17, 2002
people with mental illnesses and disorders, and whatever you may call them don't want your pity. they want your understanding and patience.
hurray for you for not casting stones. (that wasn't sarcastic as it may have sounded... or read rather.)
AND does he realy have OCD, or is that just metafilter people pretending they know everything?
posted by prescribed life at 4:48 PM on November 17, 2002
hurray for you for not casting stones. (that wasn't sarcastic as it may have sounded... or read rather.)
AND does he realy have OCD, or is that just metafilter people pretending they know everything?
posted by prescribed life at 4:48 PM on November 17, 2002
biscotti, sorry, I only quoted you to sort of build on what you said, not to correct it - in retrospect a confusing move. But yes, I was trying to basically agree & expand.
priyanga, yes Orlan was who I was thinking of.
prescribed life, i don't think anyone suggested he had OCD, but we pretty much addressed the question of whether he "really" has a psychiatric disorder or not, above - it's a subjective assessment no matter who makes it; it's official when a professional makes it after closer inspection, but remains subjective.
posted by mdn at 4:55 PM on November 17, 2002
priyanga, yes Orlan was who I was thinking of.
prescribed life, i don't think anyone suggested he had OCD, but we pretty much addressed the question of whether he "really" has a psychiatric disorder or not, above - it's a subjective assessment no matter who makes it; it's official when a professional makes it after closer inspection, but remains subjective.
posted by mdn at 4:55 PM on November 17, 2002
Whatever his mental status, he's also a champion assblanket. What kind of individual explains that they couldn't manage their own accounts because they were too busy being a "visionary"?
I have neither sympathy nor mercy for this vile, irresponsible human being. MJ clearly and by his own testimony expects others to wipe his ass (all but literally), and refuses to shoulder even the basic burdens and responsibilities most everyone else is forced to as a consequence of adulthood.
posted by adamgreenfield at 5:53 PM on November 17, 2002
I have neither sympathy nor mercy for this vile, irresponsible human being. MJ clearly and by his own testimony expects others to wipe his ass (all but literally), and refuses to shoulder even the basic burdens and responsibilities most everyone else is forced to as a consequence of adulthood.
posted by adamgreenfield at 5:53 PM on November 17, 2002
adamgreenfield: you're assuming a level playing field which doesn't exist in the real world. All kinds of people "refuse" to shoulder the burdens you describe, those without a lucrative talent or skill often end up living under bridges or in long-term care. Inability != refusal.
posted by biscotti at 10:41 PM on November 17, 2002
posted by biscotti at 10:41 PM on November 17, 2002
Of course. And when they do arrive in long-term care, or wind up in the free clinic - where I would pick the broken beer-bottle glass from their bare feet, disinfect their staph infections, give them directions to the community shower and the soup kitchen, and ask them if they had any trusted friends or family in the area - I have deep wells of compassion for them (not pity, compassion).
MJ, on the other hand, presumably has unlimited access to the best mental-health care the world has to offer. If he chooses not to avail himself of it, how should we regard that? Just about any other human being you might care to name has a better claim on our empathy, compassion, and energy.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:01 AM on November 18, 2002
MJ, on the other hand, presumably has unlimited access to the best mental-health care the world has to offer. If he chooses not to avail himself of it, how should we regard that? Just about any other human being you might care to name has a better claim on our empathy, compassion, and energy.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:01 AM on November 18, 2002
Many of the mentally ill have not a clue they need help. Parto of the delusion is thinking there is nothing wrong with them. In my humble opinion Michael Jackson falls into that category. Makes me think that someone is making money off the situation as it now stands.
posted by konolia at 7:31 AM on November 18, 2002
posted by konolia at 7:31 AM on November 18, 2002
You're probably right. Chalk it up to an extended bout of compassion fatigue on my part, then.
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:48 PM on November 18, 2002
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:48 PM on November 18, 2002
Forget the face. The fact remains this is a fellow who, for all intents and purposes, bought his way out of a pedophilia charge.
That was a civil case. Don't you think if there was any evidence, they'd at least charge him criminally? Even OJ was charged.
posted by elvissinatra at 4:56 PM on November 18, 2002
That was a civil case. Don't you think if there was any evidence, they'd at least charge him criminally? Even OJ was charged.
posted by elvissinatra at 4:56 PM on November 18, 2002
First, most stars in their natural state look less than gorgeous, why I never was a fan of tv & movie looks. As I saw stars when I was young, it allowed me to feel secure because I was not glamorous nor were they.
science can do anything - this is the age of wonders as well as horrors, after all - it still isn't good enough to fix the plastic surgery disaster that is the face of one of the richer men on the planet
He has had 4 known nose jobs. Each nose job will cut down on your blood circulation in the region. Due to this each time adds less and less blood flow to that part of the face and he is now creating a new medical condition, no?
I do know your nose and ears keeping growing until you die, their cartlige.
To me with this info, it looks like his nose is about to fall off due to the lack of blood flow. Look at the latest pics, the bridge of MJ's nose seems bluish green like gangrene. Plus I bet he wears his hair long to hide his face like insecure school girls did when I was in school. But he does have something to hide now, scare tissue.
Is it his fault to want what you can't have, perfection or, plastic surgeons letting $$ cloud their judgement of ethics? It's not like he did this w/o the doctors' ok. Another side of fame that might be looked upon as wrong and hepl start a conscience in the public eye of useless surgeries all together. MJ could benifit from all this to help and educate folks, it has for me.
Ps, I also have read that his brothers teased him in adolescence with "big nose" now that is the other side of this story that has been cut off.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:05 PM on November 19, 2002
science can do anything - this is the age of wonders as well as horrors, after all - it still isn't good enough to fix the plastic surgery disaster that is the face of one of the richer men on the planet
He has had 4 known nose jobs. Each nose job will cut down on your blood circulation in the region. Due to this each time adds less and less blood flow to that part of the face and he is now creating a new medical condition, no?
I do know your nose and ears keeping growing until you die, their cartlige.
To me with this info, it looks like his nose is about to fall off due to the lack of blood flow. Look at the latest pics, the bridge of MJ's nose seems bluish green like gangrene. Plus I bet he wears his hair long to hide his face like insecure school girls did when I was in school. But he does have something to hide now, scare tissue.
Is it his fault to want what you can't have, perfection or, plastic surgeons letting $$ cloud their judgement of ethics? It's not like he did this w/o the doctors' ok. Another side of fame that might be looked upon as wrong and hepl start a conscience in the public eye of useless surgeries all together. MJ could benifit from all this to help and educate folks, it has for me.
Ps, I also have read that his brothers teased him in adolescence with "big nose" now that is the other side of this story that has been cut off.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:05 PM on November 19, 2002
WHAT. THE. FUCK. AGAIN. MICHAEL?
I think that mask is cutting off the oxygen to his brain...
posted by lnicole at 1:06 PM on November 19, 2002
I think that mask is cutting off the oxygen to his brain...
posted by lnicole at 1:06 PM on November 19, 2002
Funny, adamgreenfield...I thought your post was brilliant.
posted by Zulujines at 12:00 PM on November 20, 2002
posted by Zulujines at 12:00 PM on November 20, 2002
Well, we do try. : . )
posted by adamgreenfield at 7:17 AM on November 21, 2002
posted by adamgreenfield at 7:17 AM on November 21, 2002
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posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:05 PM on November 15, 2002