more fundamentalism in the middle east
February 16, 2003 3:45 PM Subscribe
in another thread someone asked "What maniac are we creating right now?", reading this article i this morning - i asked myself the same question. [nytimes]
"The founder of Maon Farm, Yehoshefat Tor, says he still thinks the bombing was a good idea. ''The Torah says we should kill all the Arabs,'' he told me. ''Not just Arabs who maybe help terrorists. Everybody.''"
"The founder of Maon Farm, Yehoshefat Tor, says he still thinks the bombing was a good idea. ''The Torah says we should kill all the Arabs,'' he told me. ''Not just Arabs who maybe help terrorists. Everybody.''"
Was that in Leviticus? Right under the shellfish stuff or something?
posted by solistrato at 4:19 PM on February 16, 2003
posted by solistrato at 4:19 PM on February 16, 2003
every population must, by definition, have its bottom 1%.
I propose the term "meatspace troll."
posted by condour75 at 4:31 PM on February 16, 2003
I propose the term "meatspace troll."
posted by condour75 at 4:31 PM on February 16, 2003
sjc, Tor is probably identifying Arabs with Amalek - as seen here - which is unfortunately an identification used by extremists to justify violence against Arabs. Deuteronomy 25:17, if you want chapter and verse.
(A "usual" interpretation of the meaning of Amalek is here).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:47 PM on February 16, 2003
(A "usual" interpretation of the meaning of Amalek is here).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:47 PM on February 16, 2003
Read the article earlier today. Those guys are nutters. Every religion, group has it nutters. The diff here though for the ME is that if these nuts do violence or crazy stuff they will answe3r to the law. They will not be proclaimed martyrs and national heroes as happens in some places.
The "contested territories"--that is UN language--will only change, go away, whatever, when a peace accord worked out and this becomes a part of it...the longer the Palestinians delay (as was the case under Barak deal) the more entrenched groups will be reluctant to leave. Sharon, alas, seems to favor est. such places on the assumption that there is not likely to be a peace in the near future. Is he realistic? slippery? or himself a nutter?
posted by Postroad at 5:19 PM on February 16, 2003
The "contested territories"--that is UN language--will only change, go away, whatever, when a peace accord worked out and this becomes a part of it...the longer the Palestinians delay (as was the case under Barak deal) the more entrenched groups will be reluctant to leave. Sharon, alas, seems to favor est. such places on the assumption that there is not likely to be a peace in the near future. Is he realistic? slippery? or himself a nutter?
posted by Postroad at 5:19 PM on February 16, 2003
They will not be proclaimed martyrs and national heroes
Well, kind of. It depends on whose nation it really is.
Sharon wants land. He will do what it takes to get it. He has the power and the guns, and that is justification enough for him-- religion is just gravy. The nationalist movements of the world have been the biggest problems in the last 100 years, and Palestinian/Israeli nationalism is hopefully the last gasp of that terrible disease of the mind.
posted by chaz at 5:33 PM on February 16, 2003
Well, kind of. It depends on whose nation it really is.
Sharon wants land. He will do what it takes to get it. He has the power and the guns, and that is justification enough for him-- religion is just gravy. The nationalist movements of the world have been the biggest problems in the last 100 years, and Palestinian/Israeli nationalism is hopefully the last gasp of that terrible disease of the mind.
posted by chaz at 5:33 PM on February 16, 2003
The diff here though for the ME is that if these nuts do violence or crazy stuff they will answe3r to the law.
really? the israeli government's handling of them seems pretty lax. none of israel's apologists ever seem to be able to explain this adequately. terrorism is bad, period. meaning, punish your own, too, even when they commit terror against "those others."
posted by donkeyschlong at 5:58 PM on February 16, 2003
really? the israeli government's handling of them seems pretty lax. none of israel's apologists ever seem to be able to explain this adequately. terrorism is bad, period. meaning, punish your own, too, even when they commit terror against "those others."
posted by donkeyschlong at 5:58 PM on February 16, 2003
really? the israeli government's handling of them seems pretty lax.
Yes it does, and hopefully that will change when there's something of a legitimate Palestinian authority to negotiate with.
Yes, these people are religious loons.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:09 PM on February 16, 2003
Yes it does, and hopefully that will change when there's something of a legitimate Palestinian authority to negotiate with.
Yes, these people are religious loons.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:09 PM on February 16, 2003
aaronshaf: once place you can find it is in deuteronomy, chapter 13, verses 6 through 10. I don't have a Torah available, but here's the text from the KJV Bible:
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Unfortunately I can't find the more extreme quote that I wanted to find. At one point the Torah advocates that you should kill anybody who you suspect does not worship Yahweh.
If you believe that the Bible, Torah or Qu'ran are books of God's love, I strongly suggest you read them cover to cover. Much of the text of those books is indeed good advice, but most of it is hateful and terrible, in all of them.
posted by mosch at 7:04 PM on February 16, 2003
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Unfortunately I can't find the more extreme quote that I wanted to find. At one point the Torah advocates that you should kill anybody who you suspect does not worship Yahweh.
If you believe that the Bible, Torah or Qu'ran are books of God's love, I strongly suggest you read them cover to cover. Much of the text of those books is indeed good advice, but most of it is hateful and terrible, in all of them.
posted by mosch at 7:04 PM on February 16, 2003
Re: Baruch Goldstein, I was wondering if anyone has seen/can comment on a documentary by Micha Peled on the Hebron settlers that was made just before Goldstein went on the rampage. I t's called "Inside God's Bunker." The settlers might be a tiny minority, but they also seem to be pretty influential (sez he in his naive about Israeli politics voice). For balance, perhaps it should be viewed with 'We Are God's Soldiers' , a film by Hannah Musleh about Hamas. I haven't seen either of these yet - but will try to persuade my local university library to buy them ... BTW, what is it with 'god'??รข
posted by carter at 8:46 PM on February 16, 2003
posted by carter at 8:46 PM on February 16, 2003
Postroad: It dosn't seem like they are answering to the law at all, unless you mean it should be legal to kick people from their homes and physicaly assult palistineans.
Or at least it should be legal untill the palistineans have a 'legitimate' government, because, of course, the palis who are being beaten and shot at are each wholy responsible for their 'government'
posted by delmoi at 1:44 AM on February 17, 2003
Or at least it should be legal untill the palistineans have a 'legitimate' government, because, of course, the palis who are being beaten and shot at are each wholy responsible for their 'government'
posted by delmoi at 1:44 AM on February 17, 2003
nice post, specialk. I wish my brain wasn't so colonized by Iraq right now, so I could add to the discussion.
posted by troutfishing at 7:52 AM on February 17, 2003
posted by troutfishing at 7:52 AM on February 17, 2003
thanks trout. its a long read - but well worth it. the violent - extreme - hate filled views are certainly present on each side.
this one gets so little coverage in the US media - and our tax dollars support this.... a disgrace. ted turner shouldnt have apologized.
posted by specialk420 at 9:02 AM on February 17, 2003
this one gets so little coverage in the US media - and our tax dollars support this.... a disgrace. ted turner shouldnt have apologized.
posted by specialk420 at 9:02 AM on February 17, 2003
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posted by kickingtheground at 4:03 PM on February 16, 2003