Prayers for peace
March 17, 2003 6:10 PM Subscribe
Prayers for peace. I'm agnostic and my feelings on the current Iraq crisis are confused. However, one thing is almost certain: many innocent people will die in the following weeks (months, years), most of them relegated to statistics. The future is uncertain.
I'm not a religious man, but at the moment I'm listening to Haydn's Mass in Time of War; if you have any fondness for classical music, I recommend you do the same. His masses are (IMO) the best things Haydn wrote, and this one ends with him (as H.C. Robbins Landon said) not asking for but demanding peace: Dona nobis pacem!
posted by languagehat at 6:19 PM on March 17, 2003
posted by languagehat at 6:19 PM on March 17, 2003
However, one thing is almost certain: many innocent people will die in the following weeks
That's not exactly written as gospel. Iraqi people will die either a) by accident, or b) if they support an unjust dictator. If the Iraqi Army surrenders quickly, then the only dead have to be Hussein's 'Elite Guard' and his small gang of hardcore supporters. I think you should be more worried about the US shooting down its own troops (again).
We all want peace. That's why we're going to clean out this evil POS before he gets any stronger.
posted by wackybrit at 6:46 PM on March 17, 2003
That's not exactly written as gospel. Iraqi people will die either a) by accident, or b) if they support an unjust dictator. If the Iraqi Army surrenders quickly, then the only dead have to be Hussein's 'Elite Guard' and his small gang of hardcore supporters. I think you should be more worried about the US shooting down its own troops (again).
We all want peace. That's why we're going to clean out this evil POS before he gets any stronger.
posted by wackybrit at 6:46 PM on March 17, 2003
languagehat:
where can i get a copy of that song for listening? i searched kazaa but came up with nothing... i'd really like to hear it.
posted by y0bhgu0d at 7:00 PM on March 17, 2003
where can i get a copy of that song for listening? i searched kazaa but came up with nothing... i'd really like to hear it.
posted by y0bhgu0d at 7:00 PM on March 17, 2003
...many innocent people will die in the following weeks (months, years), most of them relegated to statistics.
Unfortunately if this Gulf War is like the last one, they won't even be statistics. In 1991 Lieutenant General Pagonis bragged, "This is the first war in modern times where every screwdriver, every nail is accounted for," but General Schwarzkopf's policy was not to count Iraqi casualties. When asked about the number of Iraqi deaths in a New York Times interview, General Colin Powell famously quipped, "It's really not a number I'm terribly interested in."
posted by hyperizer at 7:04 PM on March 17, 2003
Unfortunately if this Gulf War is like the last one, they won't even be statistics. In 1991 Lieutenant General Pagonis bragged, "This is the first war in modern times where every screwdriver, every nail is accounted for," but General Schwarzkopf's policy was not to count Iraqi casualties. When asked about the number of Iraqi deaths in a New York Times interview, General Colin Powell famously quipped, "It's really not a number I'm terribly interested in."
posted by hyperizer at 7:04 PM on March 17, 2003
i was hoping not to turn this into another us vs. them thread, but for us to think about (and commemorate) the people who will be lost soon.
posted by poopy at 7:05 PM on March 17, 2003
posted by poopy at 7:05 PM on March 17, 2003
i was hoping not to turn this into another us vs. them thread, but for us to think about (and commemorate) the people who will be lost soon.
Yeah...right. I guess those that don't agree with the misguided view that Sadaam Hussein can be "contained" through endless "inspections" and "sanctions" should just shut up? Thousands of innocents have died as a result of his dictatorship, and will continue to die if we do nothing. It's clear that Sadaam doesn't want the type of peace that you desire. The only way peace will result in Iraq is through his removal. I pray that the war is a short one.
posted by Durwood at 7:19 PM on March 17, 2003
Yeah...right. I guess those that don't agree with the misguided view that Sadaam Hussein can be "contained" through endless "inspections" and "sanctions" should just shut up? Thousands of innocents have died as a result of his dictatorship, and will continue to die if we do nothing. It's clear that Sadaam doesn't want the type of peace that you desire. The only way peace will result in Iraq is through his removal. I pray that the war is a short one.
posted by Durwood at 7:19 PM on March 17, 2003
so much for that idea... matt, delete this thread any time.
posted by poopy at 7:31 PM on March 17, 2003
posted by poopy at 7:31 PM on March 17, 2003
Will innocent people die in this war? Of course. But it will still be far fewer than the number that will die anyway as a result of Sodamn Insane remaining in power. There may be valid reasons to oppose this war, but this is not one of them.
posted by republican at 7:35 PM on March 17, 2003
posted by republican at 7:35 PM on March 17, 2003
>But it will still be far fewer than the number that will die anyway as a result of Sodamn Insane remaining in power.
...Because it's just so much easier to kill a man when he's not a man anymore.
posted by shepd at 7:41 PM on March 17, 2003
...Because it's just so much easier to kill a man when he's not a man anymore.
posted by shepd at 7:41 PM on March 17, 2003
ummm...I guess I should feel bad about that...but I don't.
posted by republican at 7:49 PM on March 17, 2003
posted by republican at 7:49 PM on March 17, 2003
poopy: Sorry your thread got dragged into the crapper; it started out so nicely.
y0bhgu0d: There are various recordings; here's one (can't tell who did it), here's Bernstein, here's Mogens Woldike, here's Richard Hickox. You can search on Haydn + Mass in Time of War or Paukenmesse to find more.
posted by languagehat at 7:52 PM on March 17, 2003
y0bhgu0d: There are various recordings; here's one (can't tell who did it), here's Bernstein, here's Mogens Woldike, here's Richard Hickox. You can search on Haydn + Mass in Time of War or Paukenmesse to find more.
posted by languagehat at 7:52 PM on March 17, 2003
Yes, innocent people will almost certainly die...but far, far fewer than if it were any nation other than the U.S. doing the attacking.
posted by davidmsc at 8:21 PM on March 17, 2003
posted by davidmsc at 8:21 PM on March 17, 2003
Durwood, this war is not being fought for liberation, but for the safety of America.
I didn't mean to suggest than only Iraqi innocents would die. Of course Sadaam threatens the US. Don't Americans matter too?
posted by Durwood at 8:24 PM on March 17, 2003
I didn't mean to suggest than only Iraqi innocents would die. Of course Sadaam threatens the US. Don't Americans matter too?
posted by Durwood at 8:24 PM on March 17, 2003
"Forgive our violation of Your creation.
Forgive our violence toward each other.
We stand in awe and gratitude for Your persistent love
for each and all of Your children:
Christian, Jew, Muslim,
as well as those with other faiths."
Durwood - those weapons of which you speak. They live here.
posted by troutfishing at 8:40 PM on March 17, 2003
Forgive our violence toward each other.
We stand in awe and gratitude for Your persistent love
for each and all of Your children:
Christian, Jew, Muslim,
as well as those with other faiths."
Durwood - those weapons of which you speak. They live here.
posted by troutfishing at 8:40 PM on March 17, 2003
ummm...I guess I should feel bad about that...but I don't.
I'm sure Saddam feels the same way.
posted by cohappy at 8:52 PM on March 17, 2003
I'm sure Saddam feels the same way.
posted by cohappy at 8:52 PM on March 17, 2003
And I'm fairly certain that, should they continue their present behavior, Saddam Hussein and George W. Bush will be cast, upon death, into the same circle of Hell.
posted by troutfishing at 8:56 PM on March 17, 2003
posted by troutfishing at 8:56 PM on March 17, 2003
I guess you Yankees were wrong to fight the Civil War as well judging by the leftist doubleplusungood mud being thrown around here.
After all, even though the Confederates enslaved and degraded blacks, they weren't actually attacking Yankees, and, really, it was none of your business since they weren't a threat.
posted by wackybrit at 10:46 PM on March 17, 2003
After all, even though the Confederates enslaved and degraded blacks, they weren't actually attacking Yankees, and, really, it was none of your business since they weren't a threat.
posted by wackybrit at 10:46 PM on March 17, 2003
Dude, the civil war was about state's rights, not slavery. And don't even try to pretend that this war is going to be fought on moral grounds.
posted by cohappy at 12:59 AM on March 18, 2003
posted by cohappy at 12:59 AM on March 18, 2003
Wackybrit, the civil war was about what Americans wanted for themselves. The war with Iraq is about what Americans want for Iraq.
What you do inside your own country isn't my business, assuming you don't step on my toes. But it seems what Iraq does in its own country is now America's business, even though, to the best of my knowledge, there's never been a single Iraqi soldier or terrorist in the USA. Ever.
It's a foible of GWB that he thinks that you can force men to be free. The two words (forced freedom) are simply an oxymoron. Iraq must choose to be free. If Iraqis want freedom bad enough they must themselves be willing to do what Americans did for themselves all those years ago. It isn't for Americans to decide for the Iraqi people. Of course, America could feel free to help out if they found large anti-sadam groups in Iraq that have vocalized their opinions. Unfortunately, I've not seen anything like this. It's simply America vs. Iraq, not America + Iraqi Liberation Army vs. Iraq.
And that's only commenting on what GWB has to say. I won't even get into the whole trying to fix the family's reputation and oil arguments.
posted by shepd at 3:45 AM on March 18, 2003
What you do inside your own country isn't my business, assuming you don't step on my toes. But it seems what Iraq does in its own country is now America's business, even though, to the best of my knowledge, there's never been a single Iraqi soldier or terrorist in the USA. Ever.
It's a foible of GWB that he thinks that you can force men to be free. The two words (forced freedom) are simply an oxymoron. Iraq must choose to be free. If Iraqis want freedom bad enough they must themselves be willing to do what Americans did for themselves all those years ago. It isn't for Americans to decide for the Iraqi people. Of course, America could feel free to help out if they found large anti-sadam groups in Iraq that have vocalized their opinions. Unfortunately, I've not seen anything like this. It's simply America vs. Iraq, not America + Iraqi Liberation Army vs. Iraq.
And that's only commenting on what GWB has to say. I won't even get into the whole trying to fix the family's reputation and oil arguments.
posted by shepd at 3:45 AM on March 18, 2003
« Older Speaking of gassing one's own people | disgusting things traditional Irish flute players... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by tapeguy at 6:18 PM on March 17, 2003