Baby T
July 31, 2003 6:44 AM Subscribe
If I get into a fight in a dark alley, I want this woman on MY side!
posted by ElvisJesus at 6:54 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by ElvisJesus at 6:54 AM on July 31, 2003
This definitely beats the time that I saw a transvestite spill a Slurpee on herself on the Orange Line. Worst T horror story ever!
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:00 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:00 AM on July 31, 2003
"Pick that up, would you, Deirdre?" "Right, mum."
posted by RylandDotNet at 7:15 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by RylandDotNet at 7:15 AM on July 31, 2003
Are you thinking of this line Mayor Curley
''At first I thought someone spilled coffee, but it kept dripping,''
posted by biffa at 7:15 AM on July 31, 2003
''At first I thought someone spilled coffee, but it kept dripping,''
posted by biffa at 7:15 AM on July 31, 2003
I've been personal witness to 3 births (all my own children).
I wish I had been there. I'm so used to the attentive father routine, I think I could have helped...
posted by thanotopsis at 7:20 AM on July 31, 2003
I wish I had been there. I'm so used to the attentive father routine, I think I could have helped...
posted by thanotopsis at 7:20 AM on July 31, 2003
Just bizarre. I can imagine being one of the bystanders, feeling frustrated at the refusals of help, and just being totally flabbergasted about what to do. Reminds me of the time I was approaching my apartment building on a well-traveled street in DC, with a date, only to see a guy stop in front of the door, drop his pants, and rip apart his diaper. I mean, what does one do in that situation? We needed to get through the door, but, well, thiere's this guy, with his pants down, ribbing part the diaper he's wearing. It's not like Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior has a chapter on that.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:35 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:35 AM on July 31, 2003
A woman had an epileptic seizure on a subway train I was on last year, and she refused to let me help her. Embarrassed denial, she had a kind of "This is not happening" look on her face when she came to, and just got up and jumped out at the next station. Sad that people are afraid to accept help from strangers.
posted by planetkyoto at 7:57 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by planetkyoto at 7:57 AM on July 31, 2003
"DSS, which has no record of any prior contact with the family, placed Judge's two other children in temporary custody yesterday"
What the fuck? Why the fuck?
posted by Pericles at 7:57 AM on July 31, 2003
What the fuck? Why the fuck?
posted by Pericles at 7:57 AM on July 31, 2003
This is one of the saddest stories I've ever read. This lady has been in a severe financial situation for a while now, with no one to help her out, and just wanted to get to the hospital and not be bothered. Every bizarro thing she did was simply to try to have and keep her baby, and those are the exact things that got her noticed and her baby taken away.
posted by pomegranate at 8:02 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by pomegranate at 8:02 AM on July 31, 2003
Guys, sympathy is one thing, but, clearly, she's INSANE. She dropped a baby on the floor of a subway car while calmly staring out the window, let it slide across the floor before picking it up, dropped the placenta on the platfom and stuffed it in her pocketbook....c'mon.
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:03 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:03 AM on July 31, 2003
Oh, for heaven's sake... thousands, (hundreds of thousands?) of babies are born under worse circumstances every single day. Those women in the rice paddies of China squirt the baby out, wrap it in their skirts and then get back to plowing the fields. We're so darned hysterical here in the first world.
posted by PigAlien at 8:36 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by PigAlien at 8:36 AM on July 31, 2003
And the fact that the woman was an ex-nurse is only mentioned once and then glossed over the rest of the article. She probably knew everything was fine and would have acted appropriately were it not.
Of course, I must confess that the thought crossed through my mind that she was hoping to just dump the baby somewhere because it sounds like she could hardly afford another baby when she's living in a motel.
Wait, a Motel 6 is ~$39 per night for one adult, which is much more expensive than rent on a modest apartment. I'll assume its being paid for by someone else?
posted by PigAlien at 8:38 AM on July 31, 2003
Of course, I must confess that the thought crossed through my mind that she was hoping to just dump the baby somewhere because it sounds like she could hardly afford another baby when she's living in a motel.
Wait, a Motel 6 is ~$39 per night for one adult, which is much more expensive than rent on a modest apartment. I'll assume its being paid for by someone else?
posted by PigAlien at 8:38 AM on July 31, 2003
Wait, a Motel 6 is ~$39 per night for one adult, which is much more expensive than rent on a modest apartment. I'll assume its being paid for by someone else?
Depends on the quality of the motel, PigAlien. There are some, particularly in larger cities, where you can get a weekly or monthly rate that is comperable to apartment rent (particularly in, once again, larger cities).
posted by thanotopsis at 8:46 AM on July 31, 2003
Depends on the quality of the motel, PigAlien. There are some, particularly in larger cities, where you can get a weekly or monthly rate that is comperable to apartment rent (particularly in, once again, larger cities).
posted by thanotopsis at 8:46 AM on July 31, 2003
Yes, this is a fantastic story. Of idiocy.
If this woman was an adequate nurse, she wouldn't want to have her baby on the train. She would have known how long she had to go and been at the hospital with a reasonable amount of leeway time.
If she wasn't a mother of neglect she might not have left her children in a motel while she went to the hospital for a presumably overnight stay, and she would have been a little more concerned that her baby just plopped out of her and slid across the floor.
Being a parent, I can't even fathom how a person could care so little for the well-being of her children. It makes me wonder if her other children were born under cars or in the dumpster behind the chinese food place while she was on a smoke break.
I hate the idea of DSS taking anyone's kids away, because usually they have no idea what they're interfering with, but this is one of those cases that has me wanting to license people to reprocude.
posted by ringmaster at 8:56 AM on July 31, 2003
If this woman was an adequate nurse, she wouldn't want to have her baby on the train. She would have known how long she had to go and been at the hospital with a reasonable amount of leeway time.
If she wasn't a mother of neglect she might not have left her children in a motel while she went to the hospital for a presumably overnight stay, and she would have been a little more concerned that her baby just plopped out of her and slid across the floor.
Being a parent, I can't even fathom how a person could care so little for the well-being of her children. It makes me wonder if her other children were born under cars or in the dumpster behind the chinese food place while she was on a smoke break.
I hate the idea of DSS taking anyone's kids away, because usually they have no idea what they're interfering with, but this is one of those cases that has me wanting to license people to reprocude.
posted by ringmaster at 8:56 AM on July 31, 2003
planetkyoto --- people with siezure disorders are quite right to be wary of "help" from strangers. The right thing to do in case of a siezure is to simply make the person comfortable (like put a cushion behind their head) and let the seizure have its way. There are, unfortunately, people who don't know this, and think that they're supposed to stick things in the person's mouth to keep them from "swallowing their tongue," or try to restrain the person to minimize the tremors.
Anyway, regarding this woman --- i don't see that she did anything wrong. She seemed to handle the delivery well, given the circumstances. The police and social services responses seem way over the top.
posted by yesster at 8:59 AM on July 31, 2003
Anyway, regarding this woman --- i don't see that she did anything wrong. She seemed to handle the delivery well, given the circumstances. The police and social services responses seem way over the top.
posted by yesster at 8:59 AM on July 31, 2003
being a parent, I would much rather the DSS sent someone to *assist* and to *evaluate* rather than whisk the other kids away, stick them in some institution and cause them huge psychological damage on top of all the other disturbances that this family have undoubtably faced. The woman has committed no crime.
posted by Pericles at 9:02 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by Pericles at 9:02 AM on July 31, 2003
If this woman was an adequate nurse, she wouldn't want to have her baby on the train. She would have known how long she had to go and been at the hospital with a reasonable amount of leeway time.
Um, you may not realize this, but sometimes babies come awful damn fast once the contractions get serious. It has nothing to do with expertise. We're talking unmeasured factors like squishiness of cervix, strength of contractions, and size of baby's head.
It is not uncommon for children after the first to come more quickly, sometimes *much* more quickly. (And when you get into the teens of children, you'd better have a birth kit at home).
The uterus does not come with a countdown timer.
posted by beth at 9:20 AM on July 31, 2003
Um, you may not realize this, but sometimes babies come awful damn fast once the contractions get serious. It has nothing to do with expertise. We're talking unmeasured factors like squishiness of cervix, strength of contractions, and size of baby's head.
It is not uncommon for children after the first to come more quickly, sometimes *much* more quickly. (And when you get into the teens of children, you'd better have a birth kit at home).
The uterus does not come with a countdown timer.
posted by beth at 9:20 AM on July 31, 2003
Having the baby slide across the floor of the subway...I don't know...doesn't that expose him to possible infections? Actaully, on that note, woundn't the fall from the mother on the floor give the baby one heck of a shock?
posted by phyrewerx at 11:11 AM on July 31, 2003
posted by phyrewerx at 11:11 AM on July 31, 2003
The fact that she had the baby on the train isn't the issue. Shit happens. Babies are born in traffic, on elevators. I have a freind whose neice was born in a parking lot. That's no big deal. Leaving her 11 and 15-year-old children is no big deal, either. A 15 year old is old enough to babysit an 11 year old.
It's her refusal of help, her dazed nonchalance, her fleeing the scene, that leads me to believe she's unstable, in need of psychiatric evaluation. That's not a condemnation--there's nothing wrong with being psychotic. But it's important to deal with that.
This is not a normal, everyday baby-born-on-the-subway story.
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:22 AM on July 31, 2003
It's her refusal of help, her dazed nonchalance, her fleeing the scene, that leads me to believe she's unstable, in need of psychiatric evaluation. That's not a condemnation--there's nothing wrong with being psychotic. But it's important to deal with that.
This is not a normal, everyday baby-born-on-the-subway story.
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:22 AM on July 31, 2003
This is a sad story and I don't think we know enough to judge this woman the way many of you seem eager to do (Oh yes, you ask questions, it's what intelligent people do).
Motels are in every case much more expensive than the equivalent space in an apartment. She likely lives there for the same reason many poor people live in motels: inability to come up with the three months' rent, or the credit rating, required to sign a lease. I don't see a problem leaving a 15 year old and an 11 year old by themselves, even overnight. This was clearly an emergency and it's her call as to whether they're mature enough to handle it.
As to her stoic, businesslike demeanor on the train? It feels to me like someone desperate to avoid attention from authorities, hoping to avoid losing her children, and as was noted, that didn't work.
Heartbreaking to compare what this woman's going through to the joy and warmth I felt at the birth of each of my children. I only hope her story attracts some angel who can help her out financially, and/or emotionally if that's what she needs.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 11:34 AM on July 31, 2003
Motels are in every case much more expensive than the equivalent space in an apartment. She likely lives there for the same reason many poor people live in motels: inability to come up with the three months' rent, or the credit rating, required to sign a lease. I don't see a problem leaving a 15 year old and an 11 year old by themselves, even overnight. This was clearly an emergency and it's her call as to whether they're mature enough to handle it.
As to her stoic, businesslike demeanor on the train? It feels to me like someone desperate to avoid attention from authorities, hoping to avoid losing her children, and as was noted, that didn't work.
Heartbreaking to compare what this woman's going through to the joy and warmth I felt at the birth of each of my children. I only hope her story attracts some angel who can help her out financially, and/or emotionally if that's what she needs.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 11:34 AM on July 31, 2003
I have the same hope, stupid, and the same heartbreak. Would that every child could be born in exactly the right way, as was my daughter.
On preview, I realize that might look sarcastic. It's not. Really.
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:18 PM on July 31, 2003
On preview, I realize that might look sarcastic. It's not. Really.
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:18 PM on July 31, 2003
The red flag, as far as I'm concerned, was letting the baby drop onto the floor and slide. By the time the head emerged, she surely was aware she was giving birth; seems like she could've done something to prevent Junior from scooting across the floor of the train.
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:39 PM on July 31, 2003
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:39 PM on July 31, 2003
Another red flag is that an obviously pregnant woman got on the train and was standing - didn't anyone offer her a seat before all this happened? I know I would have.
posted by pyramid termite at 1:53 PM on July 31, 2003
posted by pyramid termite at 1:53 PM on July 31, 2003
Pyramid termite, she may have refused offers of a seat. In my experience, sitting upright was the last thing I wanted to do while I was in the last phases of labour. The pain would've been excruciating.
I'm concerned about letting the baby drop onto the floor, but then, I don't know what kind of pain she was experiencing as the shoulders emerged. She may not have had the ability to bend down and catch the baby, or even to say "um, someone catch my kid!"
I'm not terribly concerned about leaving the 11 and 15 year olds back at the hotel. It's not ideal, but the 15 year old was old enough to babysit the 11 year old in an emergency situation, which this was. I can only presume that there was something other than that which prompted DSS to take custody. Rather, I can only hope.
posted by Dreama at 2:47 PM on July 31, 2003
I'm concerned about letting the baby drop onto the floor, but then, I don't know what kind of pain she was experiencing as the shoulders emerged. She may not have had the ability to bend down and catch the baby, or even to say "um, someone catch my kid!"
I'm not terribly concerned about leaving the 11 and 15 year olds back at the hotel. It's not ideal, but the 15 year old was old enough to babysit the 11 year old in an emergency situation, which this was. I can only presume that there was something other than that which prompted DSS to take custody. Rather, I can only hope.
posted by Dreama at 2:47 PM on July 31, 2003
Dreama - The residual crud of Puritanism still poisons Bostonian culture - don't assume there was any reason at all, or any crime charged other than the impropriety of being poor.
If her 11 and 15 year old kids are not very obviously psychologically disturbed (and not merely from all the publicity, I mean) I'd suggest giving her the benefit of the doubt - American society heaps absurd amounts of scorn, judgements, and punitive government policies on poor single mothers. It's so easy and tempting to kick the down and out.
posted by troutfishing at 4:28 PM on July 31, 2003
If her 11 and 15 year old kids are not very obviously psychologically disturbed (and not merely from all the publicity, I mean) I'd suggest giving her the benefit of the doubt - American society heaps absurd amounts of scorn, judgements, and punitive government policies on poor single mothers. It's so easy and tempting to kick the down and out.
posted by troutfishing at 4:28 PM on July 31, 2003
She dropped a baby on the floor of a subway car while calmly staring out the window, let it slide across the floor before picking it up
So say the subway witnesses, and we all know how completely reliable subway witnesses are.
posted by kayjay at 5:22 PM on July 31, 2003
So say the subway witnesses, and we all know how completely reliable subway witnesses are.
posted by kayjay at 5:22 PM on July 31, 2003
I was thinking about this a lot overnight. I feel there's something very sad in the fact that "several of the witnesses were vomiting".
Are we so screwed up in the western world that find the sight of a little natal blood disgusting, yet find nothing stomach-turning about half of the wars, starvation, deaths through trivial illnesses like diharroea that we could prevent?
posted by Pericles at 3:13 AM on August 1, 2003
Are we so screwed up in the western world that find the sight of a little natal blood disgusting, yet find nothing stomach-turning about half of the wars, starvation, deaths through trivial illnesses like diharroea that we could prevent?
posted by Pericles at 3:13 AM on August 1, 2003
Woman Gives Birth Without a Fuss! People Outraged!
"It's, like, she doesn't respect all the suffering women went through to get where they are today," said one outraged commuter.
"I'm appaled," said Jenny, 35, "I went through, like, 37 hours of labour for my first child and she does this! It's like a slap in the face."
A man who talked of African women giving birth in fields, then continuing working, was reported to social services. An investigation into his family life is under way.
posted by Blue Stone at 8:58 AM on August 1, 2003
"It's, like, she doesn't respect all the suffering women went through to get where they are today," said one outraged commuter.
"I'm appaled," said Jenny, 35, "I went through, like, 37 hours of labour for my first child and she does this! It's like a slap in the face."
A man who talked of African women giving birth in fields, then continuing working, was reported to social services. An investigation into his family life is under way.
posted by Blue Stone at 8:58 AM on August 1, 2003
this is a sad story, not an example of post-Puritan anything. this woman did not reveal her pregnancy to her family until a few weeks ago, she went to the hospital the day before the birth and was told to return when she felt more contractions, she has had mental health problems in the past, and today was committed for a thirty day psychiatric evaluation at the state hospital. that's why her other kids are with DSS, not just because she accidentally gave birth on the T. the state can't commit someone and leave her minor children without supervision, let alone the newborn. i hope she gets the help she obviously needs...as for the other T riders, let's see how even the most jaded NYC straphangers would react to this, i mean come on...interesting side note, though, would the infant have been charged an exit fare under the old "Charlie on the MTA" system?
posted by serafinapekkala at 9:17 AM on August 1, 2003
posted by serafinapekkala at 9:17 AM on August 1, 2003
''I saw a head, then full baby fall out from her skirt, hit the floor sideways and slide the length of the doorway, stopping when he bumped up against the next row of seats."
If this is true, where was the umbilical cord during all of this? Are there ones long enough for this to happen? The average length seems to be around 55cm.
And as far as more "natural" child-birthing goes, I believe most women at least squat so that the baby doesn't tumble a couple of feet to the ground. It seems like everyone concedes that she stood the whole time. But as Prissy famously said "Miss Scarlett, I don't know nothin' about birthin' babies!"
It's a sad story all around, but I don't believe this woman was running on full mental capacity.
posted by witchstone at 9:43 AM on August 1, 2003
If this is true, where was the umbilical cord during all of this? Are there ones long enough for this to happen? The average length seems to be around 55cm.
And as far as more "natural" child-birthing goes, I believe most women at least squat so that the baby doesn't tumble a couple of feet to the ground. It seems like everyone concedes that she stood the whole time. But as Prissy famously said "Miss Scarlett, I don't know nothin' about birthin' babies!"
It's a sad story all around, but I don't believe this woman was running on full mental capacity.
posted by witchstone at 9:43 AM on August 1, 2003
A woman had an epileptic seizure on a subway train I was on last year, and she refused to let me help her. Embarrassed denial, she had a kind of "This is not happening" look on her face when she came to, and just got up and jumped out at the next station. Sad that people are afraid to accept help from strangers.
epileptic seizures usually seriously fuck with your consciousness, though. Once they begin, you're commonly not yourself for a few hours. And yeah, there's embarrassment, too [etc]. The best thing to do, as noted above, is to make the person feel comfortable, so best not to freak out or seem overly concerned with "helping" - just a calm offer of support.
As for this woman, it sounds like she was having some kind of spell or something... If she were actively involved with the birthing process then I can see her turning down help, but it sounds like she was just in denial about the whole thing. Letting the baby fall especially sounds damning.
posted by mdn at 10:04 AM on August 1, 2003
epileptic seizures usually seriously fuck with your consciousness, though. Once they begin, you're commonly not yourself for a few hours. And yeah, there's embarrassment, too [etc]. The best thing to do, as noted above, is to make the person feel comfortable, so best not to freak out or seem overly concerned with "helping" - just a calm offer of support.
As for this woman, it sounds like she was having some kind of spell or something... If she were actively involved with the birthing process then I can see her turning down help, but it sounds like she was just in denial about the whole thing. Letting the baby fall especially sounds damning.
posted by mdn at 10:04 AM on August 1, 2003
Part of me is angry that she is judged so harshly by people because what she did isn't "normal." We've become so soft that we think everyone has to make a huge big deal of birth, take 3 months off, be in the hospital, make a huge scene, etc. etc. etc. (not saying I won't do all those things come december when I give birth...) But we should remember that billions of women have given birth and it's no big deal, as someone said above, they just wrap the baby up and keep on working or doing what they're doing. It's been done billions of times before, no need to make it a huge deal unless you want to or there's a problem. Also, the part about her putting the placenta in her purse and people being shocked and judgemental about that makes me angry. What do you want her to do with it? Point at it and scream? Maybe she didn't have a nice, clean plastic bag to put it into and took the next best thing.
All that being said, there is something very strange about this story. Taking the observations of grossed-out and amazing onlookers with a BIG grain of salt, it's still odd. I can see embarassment being a factor, with trying not to make a big deal of it, but not enough of one to warrent her reactions..or...non-reaction.
Although she is odd, I think that immediately taking her kids away is wrong. As long as they aren't showing signs of neglect and abuse, leave them with her and get her some evaluation and help. She probably needs it. But does that make her an unfit mother? Doubt it.
posted by aacheson at 1:01 PM on August 1, 2003
All that being said, there is something very strange about this story. Taking the observations of grossed-out and amazing onlookers with a BIG grain of salt, it's still odd. I can see embarassment being a factor, with trying not to make a big deal of it, but not enough of one to warrent her reactions..or...non-reaction.
Although she is odd, I think that immediately taking her kids away is wrong. As long as they aren't showing signs of neglect and abuse, leave them with her and get her some evaluation and help. She probably needs it. But does that make her an unfit mother? Doubt it.
posted by aacheson at 1:01 PM on August 1, 2003
"this woman did not reveal her pregnancy to her family until a few weeks ago...she has had mental health problems in the past." (serafinapekkala)
serafinapekkala, why would she be required to reveal her pregnancy to her family? She is not a teenager (One of her kids is 15 years old). And of the "mental problems" - well, I'd venture to guess that over 1/3 to 1/2 of Americans have spent time with counselers, psychologists, and psychiatrists (and clergy too), but what of it?
Indeed, I'd venture so far as to say that most human problems are "mental" in origin.
posted by troutfishing at 2:22 PM on August 1, 2003
serafinapekkala, why would she be required to reveal her pregnancy to her family? She is not a teenager (One of her kids is 15 years old). And of the "mental problems" - well, I'd venture to guess that over 1/3 to 1/2 of Americans have spent time with counselers, psychologists, and psychiatrists (and clergy too), but what of it?
Indeed, I'd venture so far as to say that most human problems are "mental" in origin.
posted by troutfishing at 2:22 PM on August 1, 2003
It is common, outside the allopathic medical model, for birthing women to enter a deep relaxed state. It's a shame birth is put in the hands of doctors more concerned with making up excuses to induce a labor in order to be home for dinner, and making an extra buck with an unnecessary episiotomy, than for people to trust the power of the heart and mind of a woman in labor. We've become conditioned to television's portrayal of birth as something that is done in a hospital bed, with an IV, while a hysterical woman spews well timed jokes to a laugh track. Birth is natural/spiritual not some routinely highly dramatic medical event. She's standing up, and the umbilical cord is long enough for the baby to drop, slide the length of a door and careen into chairs?! Impressive. Seems the only hysterical ones were the other passengers.
Wonder how many of the individuals responsible for evaluating this woman and her children would have flinched had she decided to have her son circumcised?
posted by Feisty at 8:20 PM on August 2, 2003
Wonder how many of the individuals responsible for evaluating this woman and her children would have flinched had she decided to have her son circumcised?
posted by Feisty at 8:20 PM on August 2, 2003
And another couple of things. Those so concerned with this family's welfare couldn't find one foster family to take in her other two children? Sounds cruel to divide them. During her 30 day evaluation, will her baby be with her? Again, probably no one is concerned that the baby will not receive human milk. I hope the baby doesn't develop any of the host of illnesses/diseases associated with not being breastfed.
posted by Feisty at 8:37 PM on August 2, 2003
posted by Feisty at 8:37 PM on August 2, 2003
Birth is natural/spiritual not some routinely highly dramatic medical event. She's standing up, and the umbilical cord is long enough for the baby to drop, slide the length of a door and careen into chairs?! Impressive.
what makes that impressive? And does the idea of a baby dropping, sliding and careening not concern you at all? I agree that she may have been in an altered state due to the birthing process, but I don't see why that would make whatever she did during that experience the right thing. Altered states can lead to poor judgment, after all, even "natural" altered states (like, as above, epileptic spells).
posted by mdn at 11:09 PM on August 2, 2003
what makes that impressive? And does the idea of a baby dropping, sliding and careening not concern you at all? I agree that she may have been in an altered state due to the birthing process, but I don't see why that would make whatever she did during that experience the right thing. Altered states can lead to poor judgment, after all, even "natural" altered states (like, as above, epileptic spells).
posted by mdn at 11:09 PM on August 2, 2003
mdn: It's tongue in cheek impressive as it's unlikely (taking a nod from witchstone's comment about the average length of an umbilical cord). The placenta didn't birth at the same time, so the end of the cord is still inside the uterus. The article mentioned it arrived later and she retrieved it mid-stride. Smart thing to do; she's being chased (I tend to think of it from her perspective - instead of some cellphone toting, can't contain his own barf onlooker's account of her fleeing), and knows that the placenta needs to be examined to ascertain a complete birth.
You say you don't see that she did the right thing. And I have to ask, in all seriousness, what did she do that was wrong? I can't see where wanting to be left alone during an incredibly primal event should label her odd. She was after all on her way to the hospital (after being turned away the day before).
This isn't to say something didn't happen which would warrant a 30 day evaluation and the removal of her children, but I don't see indication from the news story.
posted by Feisty at 3:35 AM on August 3, 2003
You say you don't see that she did the right thing. And I have to ask, in all seriousness, what did she do that was wrong? I can't see where wanting to be left alone during an incredibly primal event should label her odd. She was after all on her way to the hospital (after being turned away the day before).
This isn't to say something didn't happen which would warrant a 30 day evaluation and the removal of her children, but I don't see indication from the news story.
posted by Feisty at 3:35 AM on August 3, 2003
You say you don't see that she did the right thing. And I have to ask, in all seriousness, what did she do that was wrong?
letting the baby drop onto the floor. Sure, being left alone is okay, giving birth in a public place is fine, I mean, you can't necessarily help it - but she should probably have tried to squat or have someone catch the child, don't you think?
posted by mdn at 7:53 AM on August 3, 2003
letting the baby drop onto the floor. Sure, being left alone is okay, giving birth in a public place is fine, I mean, you can't necessarily help it - but she should probably have tried to squat or have someone catch the child, don't you think?
posted by mdn at 7:53 AM on August 3, 2003
I think it's splitting hairs. Somewhat like: when at the last minute the 18 wheeler drove up on the sidewalk, why did some Jump out of the way, or Raise their arms protectively over their heads, or Stand frozen? Gauging desire to keep living based on reaction would be unfair. (And it's unfair of me to compare giving birth to being run down by a truck; please forgive me).
In an ideal situation her birthing support person(s) would have encouraged any position which felt comfortable, but would have caught her baby. I'm guessing that for the woman on the train, she refused help because in the midst, pushing out a baby cannot be rationalized, and to accept help from a stranger would most likely stall the labor - seemingly ideal, but not without EXTREME pain and risk to baby (not that she would have been thinking of the latter, but it goes hand in hand with nature's design to avoid pain).
Babies are born in toilets everyday - even in hospitals. I doubt any of those women have been treated in this manner.
posted by Feisty at 9:56 AM on August 5, 2003
In an ideal situation her birthing support person(s) would have encouraged any position which felt comfortable, but would have caught her baby. I'm guessing that for the woman on the train, she refused help because in the midst, pushing out a baby cannot be rationalized, and to accept help from a stranger would most likely stall the labor - seemingly ideal, but not without EXTREME pain and risk to baby (not that she would have been thinking of the latter, but it goes hand in hand with nature's design to avoid pain).
Babies are born in toilets everyday - even in hospitals. I doubt any of those women have been treated in this manner.
posted by Feisty at 9:56 AM on August 5, 2003
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posted by VelvetHellvis at 6:51 AM on July 31, 2003