From Goose Step To Frog March
August 28, 2003 6:54 PM Subscribe
So here's the question: would you blow the cover of another CIA agent if it would get Karl out?
posted by namespan at 7:04 PM on August 28, 2003
posted by namespan at 7:04 PM on August 28, 2003
Let'sSeeHowMany"IHateBush"FPPsWeCanPostIn24Hours-Filter. (1, 2, 3, 4)
posted by davidmsc at 7:08 PM on August 28, 2003
Let's see how many comments for a complaint against the content of the post - oh, there we go.
posted by iamck at 7:13 PM on August 28, 2003
posted by iamck at 7:13 PM on August 28, 2003
If you feel that you have to comment about the manner in which a post is made, take it to MeTa. That's what it's for.
posted by bshort at 7:19 PM on August 28, 2003
posted by bshort at 7:19 PM on August 28, 2003
Back to the subject of the post: the identity of a CIA operative was revealed, by the Bush Administration, as an act of political revenge.
Nothing more needs to be said, except - Bush patriotism? - I think I hear a giant flushing sound.
posted by troutfishing at 7:21 PM on August 28, 2003
Nothing more needs to be said, except - Bush patriotism? - I think I hear a giant flushing sound.
posted by troutfishing at 7:21 PM on August 28, 2003
I shudder for Mefi when I think that it's already this bad and the 2004 election is still 14 months away.
Why don't these people just go over to Democratic Underground and pump each other up over there?
posted by mojohand at 7:22 PM on August 28, 2003
Why don't these people just go over to Democratic Underground and pump each other up over there?
posted by mojohand at 7:22 PM on August 28, 2003
I think the big question is: is anyone going to actually look into prosecuting this case?
Without the special prosecutor law, and with a Congress that falls over itself to do the President's bidding, I doubt very strongly whether this will be looked into by any governmental organizations.
If this case is going to be pursued any further it will have to be investigated by the press and by private citizens until there is literally overwhelming evidence.
posted by bshort at 7:28 PM on August 28, 2003
Without the special prosecutor law, and with a Congress that falls over itself to do the President's bidding, I doubt very strongly whether this will be looked into by any governmental organizations.
If this case is going to be pursued any further it will have to be investigated by the press and by private citizens until there is literally overwhelming evidence.
posted by bshort at 7:28 PM on August 28, 2003
mojohand - I guess you have nothing to say about the case in point ( as in addressing it's factual details ). Or is truth, for you, subservient to ideology?
posted by troutfishing at 7:31 PM on August 28, 2003
posted by troutfishing at 7:31 PM on August 28, 2003
Back in the 1960's, there was a hippie poster that said, "You have not converted someone because you have silenced them."
Even as a kid, I realized that for most ideologues, they didn't care at all if they converted anyone, they just wanted those who disagreed to shut up.
Pity the person who only wants their own ideas reflected back at them. Reality for them is a penance.
posted by kablam at 7:34 PM on August 28, 2003
Even as a kid, I realized that for most ideologues, they didn't care at all if they converted anyone, they just wanted those who disagreed to shut up.
Pity the person who only wants their own ideas reflected back at them. Reality for them is a penance.
posted by kablam at 7:34 PM on August 28, 2003
And they are a penance for the rest of us.
posted by troutfishing at 7:50 PM on August 28, 2003
posted by troutfishing at 7:50 PM on August 28, 2003
So we should just accept the fact that we're being shit on and accept it? Well it ain't gonna happen. You got your tax cut and your war, and now you're going to pay for it.
But what is "frog-marched"?
posted by 2sheets at 7:51 PM on August 28, 2003
But what is "frog-marched"?
posted by 2sheets at 7:51 PM on August 28, 2003
I remember the good old days... back when the CIA could be relied on to faithfully serve the President country and protect the presidency democratic way of life. Now they seem like the voice of reason in an administration run wild.
Nixon wouldn't have stood for this shit, not for a second.
posted by cedar at 7:54 PM on August 28, 2003
Nixon wouldn't have stood for this shit, not for a second.
posted by cedar at 7:54 PM on August 28, 2003
Without the special prosecutor law, and with a Congress that falls over itself to do the President's bidding, I doubt very strongly whether this will be looked into by any governmental organizations.
If this case is going to be pursued any further it will have to be investigated by the press and by private citizens until there is literally overwhelming evidence.
Bzzzt. If you watched the video you'd have heard what Wilson has to say about this. He's confident that it will be investigated. The people in the CIA and the FBI who are responsible for the investigation are professionals not political appointees. Also, several senators have taken a strong interest in the case.
The video is very much worth watching.
posted by alms at 8:03 PM on August 28, 2003
If this case is going to be pursued any further it will have to be investigated by the press and by private citizens until there is literally overwhelming evidence.
Bzzzt. If you watched the video you'd have heard what Wilson has to say about this. He's confident that it will be investigated. The people in the CIA and the FBI who are responsible for the investigation are professionals not political appointees. Also, several senators have taken a strong interest in the case.
The video is very much worth watching.
posted by alms at 8:03 PM on August 28, 2003
cedar - WOW! - you've just coined a killer slogan there, as in: "If Nixon were alive, he would clear this shit out!"
A frightening thought, but possibly true.
posted by troutfishing at 8:08 PM on August 28, 2003
A frightening thought, but possibly true.
posted by troutfishing at 8:08 PM on August 28, 2003
Nixon wouldn't have stood for this shit, not for a second.
How spooky is it when Tricky Dick starts looking like the best Oval Office Republican in the last 30-odd years?
posted by dejah420 at 8:20 PM on August 28, 2003
How spooky is it when Tricky Dick starts looking like the best Oval Office Republican in the last 30-odd years?
posted by dejah420 at 8:20 PM on August 28, 2003
In the clip he named Senators Schumer and Clinton among others as supporting him and pushing for an investigation. I echo the sentiment that the clip is well worth watching.
And since I know you all well enough to expect that you will continue to argue this without doing so, here's a bit of a transcript...
"There is a lot of interest in Congress, Henry Waxman has been keenly interested in this and has offered all kinds of support. Chuck Schumer, mister 'Gun Control' came out and made a statement to the effect that 'if true this is like putting a gun to the head of an agent.' John Dean, of all people, just wrote the other day that the President should have extended Secret Service protection to me and my family as a consequence of this. He didn't, by the way. Although I will tell you, I think they're scared to death that I might stub my toe. ... The question is whether or not having Chuck Schumer and Hillary and others go forward and talk about this openly impedes or helps the investigation down the road."
Calling this post out as simple partisan bickering exposes the true partisans here.
posted by palegirl at 8:53 PM on August 28, 2003
And since I know you all well enough to expect that you will continue to argue this without doing so, here's a bit of a transcript...
"There is a lot of interest in Congress, Henry Waxman has been keenly interested in this and has offered all kinds of support. Chuck Schumer, mister 'Gun Control' came out and made a statement to the effect that 'if true this is like putting a gun to the head of an agent.' John Dean, of all people, just wrote the other day that the President should have extended Secret Service protection to me and my family as a consequence of this. He didn't, by the way. Although I will tell you, I think they're scared to death that I might stub my toe. ... The question is whether or not having Chuck Schumer and Hillary and others go forward and talk about this openly impedes or helps the investigation down the road."
Calling this post out as simple partisan bickering exposes the true partisans here.
posted by palegirl at 8:53 PM on August 28, 2003
Bzzzt. If you watched the video you'd have heard what Wilson has to say about this. He's confident that it will be investigated.
Oh, was this the part where everyone started laughing?
posted by CrazyJub at 8:55 PM on August 28, 2003
Oh, was this the part where everyone started laughing?
posted by CrazyJub at 8:55 PM on August 28, 2003
frog-march: to seize from behind roughly and forcefully propel forward
posted by palegirl at 9:03 PM on August 28, 2003
posted by palegirl at 9:03 PM on August 28, 2003
Geez, everyone, lighten up.
skallas, I didn't condone anything in my comment. I wasn't even referring to the detail-level content of the FPP. I was only pointing out the volume of "Bush & Co = Bad" FPPs during the last 24 hour news-cycle.
Quit trolling and make a point. Shouting, "look at all these FPPs" is nonsense, make an argument or leave.
Wasn't trolling, and my comment was not political. In hindsight, it should have gone into MeTa - sorry.
posted by davidmsc at 9:59 PM on August 28, 2003
skallas, I didn't condone anything in my comment. I wasn't even referring to the detail-level content of the FPP. I was only pointing out the volume of "Bush & Co = Bad" FPPs during the last 24 hour news-cycle.
Quit trolling and make a point. Shouting, "look at all these FPPs" is nonsense, make an argument or leave.
Wasn't trolling, and my comment was not political. In hindsight, it should have gone into MeTa - sorry.
posted by davidmsc at 9:59 PM on August 28, 2003
Wasn't trolling, and my comment was not political.
ha!
posted by Espoo2 at 12:02 AM on August 29, 2003
ha!
posted by Espoo2 at 12:02 AM on August 29, 2003
Related tactics:
Now, Senator Richard Durbin (D-IL) is the Bush assassin squad’s latest drive-by target.
Last week, Senator Durbin, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and a critic of White House policy, revealed that the Central Intelligence Agency
has confirmed that Bush officials worked hard to insure that the false uranium claim, based on forged documents, made it into Bush’s State of the Union.
The White House responded with an orchestrated campaign of leaks to the media, claming falsely that Durbin had compromised national security and that
other senators had demanded his removal from the Intelligence Committee.
Durbin exposed the operation in a 45-minute speech on the Senate floor.
"If any member of this Senate . . . questions this White House policy, raises any questions about the gathering of intelligence information or the use of
it, be prepared for the worst," Durbin said. "The White House is going to turn to you and attack you. They are going to question your patriotism."
And from the "I can't contribute or refute anything posted so I'll just whine instead" department....
I wasn't even referring to the detail-level content of the FPP.
Exactly. You weren't.
One really longs for the day when the long, bedraggled line of Bush apologists here may finally acquire the gear so that they may in fact "refer to the detail-level content" for a change, and bring something to the debate besides ankle-gnawing messenger attacks; or, as above, an irrelevant and simply childish count of criticisms of their mendacious hero. Here's a novel suggestion: get your mendacious hero to stop doing stupid, cowardly, and frankly evil things....and maybe people will stop repeatedly calling him on his shameful outrages.
Otherwise, places like SheepRepublic.com are always there for you, if you can't stand the heat here. I've certainly noticed a striking retreat over time of right-wing voices here on MetaFilter who just couldn't cope with any challenges to their ideas.... and many who remain merely whine ad nauseum that free and vigorous criticism in our country upsets their own special love for goosestepping. Many, if not all, of these folks have absolutely no idea what America really stands for (or used to).
In these regards they appear eerily like what we see from Bush and crew.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 1:33 AM on August 29, 2003
Now, Senator Richard Durbin (D-IL) is the Bush assassin squad’s latest drive-by target.
Last week, Senator Durbin, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and a critic of White House policy, revealed that the Central Intelligence Agency
has confirmed that Bush officials worked hard to insure that the false uranium claim, based on forged documents, made it into Bush’s State of the Union.
The White House responded with an orchestrated campaign of leaks to the media, claming falsely that Durbin had compromised national security and that
other senators had demanded his removal from the Intelligence Committee.
Durbin exposed the operation in a 45-minute speech on the Senate floor.
"If any member of this Senate . . . questions this White House policy, raises any questions about the gathering of intelligence information or the use of
it, be prepared for the worst," Durbin said. "The White House is going to turn to you and attack you. They are going to question your patriotism."
And from the "I can't contribute or refute anything posted so I'll just whine instead" department....
I wasn't even referring to the detail-level content of the FPP.
Exactly. You weren't.
One really longs for the day when the long, bedraggled line of Bush apologists here may finally acquire the gear so that they may in fact "refer to the detail-level content" for a change, and bring something to the debate besides ankle-gnawing messenger attacks; or, as above, an irrelevant and simply childish count of criticisms of their mendacious hero. Here's a novel suggestion: get your mendacious hero to stop doing stupid, cowardly, and frankly evil things....and maybe people will stop repeatedly calling him on his shameful outrages.
Otherwise, places like SheepRepublic.com are always there for you, if you can't stand the heat here. I've certainly noticed a striking retreat over time of right-wing voices here on MetaFilter who just couldn't cope with any challenges to their ideas.... and many who remain merely whine ad nauseum that free and vigorous criticism in our country upsets their own special love for goosestepping. Many, if not all, of these folks have absolutely no idea what America really stands for (or used to).
In these regards they appear eerily like what we see from Bush and crew.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 1:33 AM on August 29, 2003
Not exactly, palegirl. "Frog-marching" requires the march-ee's belt (or the top of his pants) to be seized and pulled upwards, so that he walks awkwardly on tiptoe with his knees splayed apart, hence the "frog" part. It could otherwise be described as a "mobile wedgie".
It's done to make resistance much more difficult for the march-ee, much like the classic "cop lock" (hands bent to opposite the shoulderblades, behind the perp's back). The fact that it's humiliating and hence somewhat humorous to watch is just gravy on the mashed potato.
I know this only because I went to a single-sex (boys) private school. As to whether Karl Rove deserves frog-marching, that's another question, but it would certainly be entertaining to watch.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 2:55 AM on August 29, 2003
It's done to make resistance much more difficult for the march-ee, much like the classic "cop lock" (hands bent to opposite the shoulderblades, behind the perp's back). The fact that it's humiliating and hence somewhat humorous to watch is just gravy on the mashed potato.
I know this only because I went to a single-sex (boys) private school. As to whether Karl Rove deserves frog-marching, that's another question, but it would certainly be entertaining to watch.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 2:55 AM on August 29, 2003
I've certainly noticed a striking retreat over time of right-wing voices here
nah. if WMD's are finally found in Iraq, after long months of useless work, or if the happy, liberated Iraqis stop killing American GI's at the rate of 1.35 murders a day, they'll be back, you'll see.
they sure were around when their war seemed to be working pretty well weren't they. but with the largest deficit in US history, those hard-to-find WMD's, and the 100-billion-a-minute cost of Halliburton's occupation of Iraq, well, why should they show up? to face reality?
I shudder for Mefi
please don't. if you hate it so much and leave, we'll try to survive anyway. we'll miss you, tho. and thanks for your 42 comments!
posted by matteo at 3:06 AM on August 29, 2003
nah. if WMD's are finally found in Iraq, after long months of useless work, or if the happy, liberated Iraqis stop killing American GI's at the rate of 1.35 murders a day, they'll be back, you'll see.
they sure were around when their war seemed to be working pretty well weren't they. but with the largest deficit in US history, those hard-to-find WMD's, and the 100-billion-a-minute cost of Halliburton's occupation of Iraq, well, why should they show up? to face reality?
I shudder for Mefi
please don't. if you hate it so much and leave, we'll try to survive anyway. we'll miss you, tho. and thanks for your 42 comments!
posted by matteo at 3:06 AM on August 29, 2003
You see it here, you see it there. I don't think it is simply my partisanship but it sure looks to me as though those on the right are content to use ad hominen attacks against opponents rather than argue the issues or the meaning of the facts. Never yet, have I seen or heard anyone make an argument that claims that it is perfectly okay for the White House to out a secret agent if it helps policy or that it is okay to discredit the personal activities of an elected official who dares to criticise the White House. Come on, you conservatives, let's here what you actually believe in.
posted by donfactor at 4:53 AM on August 29, 2003
posted by donfactor at 4:53 AM on August 29, 2003
My feelings are obvious when I read the FPP *twice* to read "frag marched" before clicking the link.
Something tells me the next administration, no matter what political affiliation, will control information and be just as paranoid about public perception as this one. Whether they will be as vindictive (indeed whether they will have the capability to be so in a potentially divisive setting) as the current one is a matter of conjecture, but given the laws passed in the last ten years it'll be easier in the legal realm.
posted by infowar at 5:08 AM on August 29, 2003
Something tells me the next administration, no matter what political affiliation, will control information and be just as paranoid about public perception as this one. Whether they will be as vindictive (indeed whether they will have the capability to be so in a potentially divisive setting) as the current one is a matter of conjecture, but given the laws passed in the last ten years it'll be easier in the legal realm.
posted by infowar at 5:08 AM on August 29, 2003
What foldy said.
And what matteo said.
Don't make me conjure up another "O' Defenders of All Things Duhbya" poem! I mean it!
posted by nofundy at 5:09 AM on August 29, 2003
And what matteo said.
Don't make me conjure up another "O' Defenders of All Things Duhbya" poem! I mean it!
posted by nofundy at 5:09 AM on August 29, 2003
I'm really enjoying "Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them". Franken argues that patriotism is a critical function, something that many republicans are trying to ignore.
Why is it that democrats bash their own bad ideas more often than republicans? Why is it that republicans have less of a sense of humor?
Plus, let's remember: despite the nut cases like Rove and Tricky Dick, the evil interest groups like fundy xians and corporate fascists... the republican party has some good in it... there's nothing wrong with small government and fiscal conservatives... there's nothing wrong with restricting judicial activism...
posted by ewkpates at 5:21 AM on August 29, 2003
Why is it that democrats bash their own bad ideas more often than republicans? Why is it that republicans have less of a sense of humor?
Plus, let's remember: despite the nut cases like Rove and Tricky Dick, the evil interest groups like fundy xians and corporate fascists... the republican party has some good in it... there's nothing wrong with small government and fiscal conservatives... there's nothing wrong with restricting judicial activism...
posted by ewkpates at 5:21 AM on August 29, 2003
Thank you for dispensing a much-needed ass-kicking, fold. The Wilson incident, as shameful and evil an act to come out of a White House in decades, needs to be aggressively prosecuted.
The absence of outrage from Bush partisans, coming at a time when they have become so comfortable making accusations of treason, demonstrates the bankruptcy of their politics.
posted by rcade at 9:38 AM on August 29, 2003
The absence of outrage from Bush partisans, coming at a time when they have become so comfortable making accusations of treason, demonstrates the bankruptcy of their politics.
posted by rcade at 9:38 AM on August 29, 2003
I've certainly noticed a striking retreat over time of right-wing voices here on MetaFilter who just couldn't cope with any challenges to their ideas
In other words, you've driven away many people you disagree with. Yay you!
posted by kindall at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2003
In other words, you've driven away many people you disagree with. Yay you!
posted by kindall at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2003
In other words, you've the facts have driven away many people you disagree with.
posted by soyjoy at 10:36 AM on August 29, 2003
posted by soyjoy at 10:36 AM on August 29, 2003
After all, who is it that keeps telling whom to shut up?
posted by soyjoy at 10:39 AM on August 29, 2003
posted by soyjoy at 10:39 AM on August 29, 2003
In other words, you've driven away many people you disagree with. Yay you!
If you are referring to specific instances of personal harrassment or other inappropriate activities to 'drive someone out' I suggest a conversation with Matt or a MeTa thread on the subject. Somehow, though, I think the drivees have had more to do with it than any drivers.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:40 AM on August 29, 2003
If you are referring to specific instances of personal harrassment or other inappropriate activities to 'drive someone out' I suggest a conversation with Matt or a MeTa thread on the subject. Somehow, though, I think the drivees have had more to do with it than any drivers.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:40 AM on August 29, 2003
For an investigation to proceed, it appears, the CIA--and that probably means CIA chief George Tenet--has to ask for one, and Attorney General John Ashcroft (or an underling) has to greenlight it. Will either of these two Bush allies be willing to take on the White House and trigger an inquiry that could embarrass, if not threaten, the Bush administration?
Looks unlikely.
posted by euphorb at 10:55 AM on August 29, 2003
Looks unlikely.
posted by euphorb at 10:55 AM on August 29, 2003
frog-march: to seize from behind roughly and forcefully propel forward
So named because it's the only way to get a Frenchman to march towards battle.
(I kid. Considering they're doing the hard, non-cathartic, non-telegenic, non vote-grabbing work in Afghanistan that we should be doing, it's long past time to cut the frog-bashing.)
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:45 AM on August 29, 2003
So named because it's the only way to get a Frenchman to march towards battle.
(I kid. Considering they're doing the hard, non-cathartic, non-telegenic, non vote-grabbing work in Afghanistan that we should be doing, it's long past time to cut the frog-bashing.)
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:45 AM on August 29, 2003
I've certainly noticed a striking retreat over time of right-wing voices here on MetaFilter who just couldn't cope
Yes, I'm sure it had nothing to do with your acting like an utter cretin whenever someone deigned to disagree with your worldview, with special help from the sycophantic "Me-Too!" crowd who are secretly frightened of you and agree almost by proxy and fear. So in that sense you've "won". Great job, you lil' freedom fighter.
posted by dhoyt at 1:03 PM on August 29, 2003
Yes, I'm sure it had nothing to do with your acting like an utter cretin whenever someone deigned to disagree with your worldview, with special help from the sycophantic "Me-Too!" crowd who are secretly frightened of you and agree almost by proxy and fear. So in that sense you've "won". Great job, you lil' freedom fighter.
posted by dhoyt at 1:03 PM on August 29, 2003
even I'll admit this post was a bit much. lettuce never become fark's foil.
posted by mcsweetie at 1:07 PM on August 29, 2003
posted by mcsweetie at 1:07 PM on August 29, 2003
Back on topic, you can't help noticing that investigation and prosecution seems to be wholly discretionary. A whole arm of government felt compelled to spend a fortune and a huge amount of time trying to find a crime in Whitewater to pin on Clinton -- and failed. But when this admin (or other members of Dubya's generation of Bushes, e.g. Neil [Silverado] Jeb [illegal voter purge, etc. etc.]) does something that bears investigation, everyone goes to sleep. Why is that?
There's a massive double standard at work. Another related one is in the area of wild accusations. Apparently it's perfectly alright to publish books and spread preposterous lying emails accusing Clinton of being a mass murderer, but watch how berserk the right goes when you suggest that Paul Wellstone's death should be investigated for foul play. Miserable, pathetic double standards in both common discourse and in public oversight.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:41 PM on August 29, 2003
There's a massive double standard at work. Another related one is in the area of wild accusations. Apparently it's perfectly alright to publish books and spread preposterous lying emails accusing Clinton of being a mass murderer, but watch how berserk the right goes when you suggest that Paul Wellstone's death should be investigated for foul play. Miserable, pathetic double standards in both common discourse and in public oversight.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:41 PM on August 29, 2003
Bush supporters among you: yes or no, if Rove made the leak about Wilson's wife being CIA, should he be prosecuted?
posted by chrismc at 6:39 PM on August 29, 2003
posted by chrismc at 6:39 PM on August 29, 2003
Yes, I'm sure it had nothing to do with your acting like an utter cretin whenever someone deigned to disagree with your worldview, with special help from the sycophantic "Me-Too!" crowd who are secretly frightened of you and agree almost by proxy and fear. So in that sense you've "won". Great job, you lil' freedom fighter.
Ann Coulter is that you?
Yeah it really sucks when people disagree with our world view that people shouldn't lie and be able to get away with it and that our elected (and not quite elected) officials would treat us with a bit more respect than that. And whenever anyone steps up and calls them on their lies so that other people can be informed of them the right side of the filter comes out shouting childish insults and spewing bile.
And as for us always bashing Bush I decided to put an end to the argument once and for all. I used the search function to find out how many times Bush was praised and how many times otherwise. I googled metafilter for "Bush Bad" (Quotes not used in search) and got 1,800 results. However when I searched for "Bush Good" (ditto) I got 2,340 results. Not bothering to actually read any of the results we can then presume that Metafilter is in fact clearly in favor of George Bush.
posted by Restlessavenger at 11:00 PM on August 29, 2003
Ann Coulter is that you?
Yeah it really sucks when people disagree with our world view that people shouldn't lie and be able to get away with it and that our elected (and not quite elected) officials would treat us with a bit more respect than that. And whenever anyone steps up and calls them on their lies so that other people can be informed of them the right side of the filter comes out shouting childish insults and spewing bile.
And as for us always bashing Bush I decided to put an end to the argument once and for all. I used the search function to find out how many times Bush was praised and how many times otherwise. I googled metafilter for "Bush Bad" (Quotes not used in search) and got 1,800 results. However when I searched for "Bush Good" (ditto) I got 2,340 results. Not bothering to actually read any of the results we can then presume that Metafilter is in fact clearly in favor of George Bush.
posted by Restlessavenger at 11:00 PM on August 29, 2003
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posted by Space Coyote at 7:00 PM on August 28, 2003