Ten years of therapy in one night
November 7, 2003 1:11 PM Subscribe
Ten years of therapy in one night Could a single trip on a piece of African rootbark help a junkie kick the habit? That was the claim in the 1960s, and now iboga is back in the spotlight. But is it a miracle cure? Daniel Pinchbeck decided to give it a go. And life, he says, will never be the same again...
Any of you junkies at Metafilter care to give it a try?
Wow, that sounds amazing. In my view, nausea, vomiting and paranoia are a small price to pay for an experience like that. I will have to do some more research on this. Great link, Postroad.
posted by widdershins at 1:32 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by widdershins at 1:32 PM on November 7, 2003
That was a cool article, though I would imagine that, as the author sort of suggested, it's simply subtext of the mind and nothing more (sounds sort of like lucid dreaming).
posted by The God Complex at 1:36 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by The God Complex at 1:36 PM on November 7, 2003
Interesting. I just read an article in this months Vancouver Magazine about Marc Emery, local pot activist and Marijuana Party leader (mentioned in the Guardian piece) who is spending his own money ($2000 CAN per treatment) to use this treatment to help addicts.
posted by futureproof at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by futureproof at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2003
In the words of the utterly brilliant and sensible Erik Davis:
"...somewhere along the way, Pinchbeck loses his center -- what Dale Pendell calls the 'solar medicine' necessary to balance out the lunar enchantments of mercurial mind.
Pinchbeck doesn't just take psychedelics; he converts to them. 'The plants that produce visions can function -- for those of us who have inherited the New World Order of barren materialism, cut off from our spiritual heritage by a spiteful culture that gives us nothing but ashes -- as the talismans of recognition that awaken our minds to reality.' Many psychonauts do experience meaty insights into self and reality, and sometimes these insights even stay with them. The problem is that Pinchbeck's sometimes proselytizing turn towards psychedelic metaphysics seems hasty and inconsidered, like a kid in the occult candy store, jumping from Kabbalah to kundalini. He wants so desperately to wake up from the nightmare of history that he overplays both the automatically transformative nature of these drugs and the spiritual vacuity of the non-psychedelic world they puncture. Too often he makes the cardinal mistake of taking the ally literally."
Those interested in an intelligent, subtle, and poetic exploration of psychedelic states are well advised to read Dale Pendell's guides Pharmako/Poeia and Pharmako/Dynamis, two of the best books ever written about the "Poison Path" of inquiry into what Zen-folk call the Great Matter.
posted by digaman at 1:42 PM on November 7, 2003
"...somewhere along the way, Pinchbeck loses his center -- what Dale Pendell calls the 'solar medicine' necessary to balance out the lunar enchantments of mercurial mind.
Pinchbeck doesn't just take psychedelics; he converts to them. 'The plants that produce visions can function -- for those of us who have inherited the New World Order of barren materialism, cut off from our spiritual heritage by a spiteful culture that gives us nothing but ashes -- as the talismans of recognition that awaken our minds to reality.' Many psychonauts do experience meaty insights into self and reality, and sometimes these insights even stay with them. The problem is that Pinchbeck's sometimes proselytizing turn towards psychedelic metaphysics seems hasty and inconsidered, like a kid in the occult candy store, jumping from Kabbalah to kundalini. He wants so desperately to wake up from the nightmare of history that he overplays both the automatically transformative nature of these drugs and the spiritual vacuity of the non-psychedelic world they puncture. Too often he makes the cardinal mistake of taking the ally literally."
Those interested in an intelligent, subtle, and poetic exploration of psychedelic states are well advised to read Dale Pendell's guides Pharmako/Poeia and Pharmako/Dynamis, two of the best books ever written about the "Poison Path" of inquiry into what Zen-folk call the Great Matter.
posted by digaman at 1:42 PM on November 7, 2003
Here's Pinchbeck's website and here's a previous thread on iboga.
posted by homunculus at 1:44 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by homunculus at 1:44 PM on November 7, 2003
I recently read an article about Iboga treatments that were being used at a clinic (in Mexico, I think). My memory of the article is very hazy but I think it might have been in Toro Magazine.
posted by dobbs at 1:45 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by dobbs at 1:45 PM on November 7, 2003
Nice account. I think there's a lot to this, in terms of overcoming the mental dimensions of addiction, whatever the substance. Thanks, Postroad.
posted by carter at 1:47 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by carter at 1:47 PM on November 7, 2003
In Peru, one treatment center is using shamanic rituals and ayahuasca to treat addiction.
posted by homunculus at 1:51 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by homunculus at 1:51 PM on November 7, 2003
> My Bwiti initiation was complicated by a belligerent, greedy
> shaman who called himself The King and demanded more
> money from us before, during and after the ceremony.
And the companies think there's no profit potential!
posted by jfuller at 1:52 PM on November 7, 2003
> shaman who called himself The King and demanded more
> money from us before, during and after the ceremony.
And the companies think there's no profit potential!
posted by jfuller at 1:52 PM on November 7, 2003
Exposing all my fears and weaknesses. I like my Wall.
posted by stbalbach at 2:50 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by stbalbach at 2:50 PM on November 7, 2003
I read Pinchbeck's book, and if he's an example of enlightenment, I'll take vanilla.
The reason I read Pinchbeck's book is that Amazon sent it to me by mistake; I had ordered a book by Daniel Pinkwater. Go. Fig.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:03 PM on November 7, 2003
The reason I read Pinchbeck's book is that Amazon sent it to me by mistake; I had ordered a book by Daniel Pinkwater. Go. Fig.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:03 PM on November 7, 2003
But is the world ready for an "Iboga is coming... hide the bong!" bumper sticker?
posted by condour75 at 3:23 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by condour75 at 3:23 PM on November 7, 2003
sounds like a fast track twelve steps, basically this is what rehabs try to do for people but without the iboga.
Very interesting article , thanks postroad.
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:33 PM on November 7, 2003
Very interesting article , thanks postroad.
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:33 PM on November 7, 2003
...Pharmako/Poeia and Pharmako/Dynamis, two of the best books ever written about the "Poison Path" of inquiry into what Zen-folk call the Great Matter.
Interesting that he uses greek terms - dynamis is greek for potency or potentiality and is used by aristotle to refer to matter (as prime matter, not formed matter) - is that the same sort of notion the zen folk have? Or is the great matter something else entirely (like "the great issue" maybe...)?
posted by mdn at 3:47 PM on November 7, 2003
Interesting that he uses greek terms - dynamis is greek for potency or potentiality and is used by aristotle to refer to matter (as prime matter, not formed matter) - is that the same sort of notion the zen folk have? Or is the great matter something else entirely (like "the great issue" maybe...)?
posted by mdn at 3:47 PM on November 7, 2003
MDN -- In Zen, the "Great Matter" is what you might call the problem of life and death.
That's fascinating, though.
posted by digaman at 4:20 PM on November 7, 2003
That's fascinating, though.
posted by digaman at 4:20 PM on November 7, 2003
MDN -- In Zen, the "Great Matter" is what you might call the problem of life and death.
aha. Interesting that we use the same word to refer to the "stuff" the world's made of (which like I said for Aristotle is dynamis, or potency), and also to refer to an issue or problem or concern - and also, as a verb, for describing something's importance (when something "matters"). Sheds some light on our underlying beliefs, I think.
If the question of life and death can be construed as, or anyway connected to, the question of being and non-being, then that's the same thing Aristotle is addressing by looking into prime matter, anyway.
posted by mdn at 5:19 PM on November 7, 2003
aha. Interesting that we use the same word to refer to the "stuff" the world's made of (which like I said for Aristotle is dynamis, or potency), and also to refer to an issue or problem or concern - and also, as a verb, for describing something's importance (when something "matters"). Sheds some light on our underlying beliefs, I think.
If the question of life and death can be construed as, or anyway connected to, the question of being and non-being, then that's the same thing Aristotle is addressing by looking into prime matter, anyway.
posted by mdn at 5:19 PM on November 7, 2003
This cures a Metafilter addiction? I'm not sure I'm ready to stop.
posted by anathema at 5:23 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by anathema at 5:23 PM on November 7, 2003
What ever happened to the "four day" heroin addiction treatment: three drugs, one to put you in a coma, one to purge the heroin from your blood, and a third to block its effects?
I heard that, while there is a risk from dying from anything that causes a coma, the main reason it wouldn't even be tested in the US was because of the profitability of methadone clinics. The rich guys who own dumpy clinics on skid row make a fortune from dispensing it and don't want to lose their very profitable, government subsidized clientele.
Does anybody know the real scoop?
posted by kablam at 6:19 PM on November 7, 2003
I heard that, while there is a risk from dying from anything that causes a coma, the main reason it wouldn't even be tested in the US was because of the profitability of methadone clinics. The rich guys who own dumpy clinics on skid row make a fortune from dispensing it and don't want to lose their very profitable, government subsidized clientele.
Does anybody know the real scoop?
posted by kablam at 6:19 PM on November 7, 2003
I would imagine that, as the author sort of suggested, it's simply subtext of the mind and nothing more (sounds sort of like lucid dreaming).
To flip that "simply" on its head, I've long been fascinated by the correspondences between lucid dreaming and psychedelic experience. One is an "organic" state generated by the mind itself; the other is supposedly a simple reaction by the brain to a temporary infusion of alien or unbalanced chemicals. Yet ontologically they seem to have a lot in common, starting with, but not limited to, forcing you to live in a state where the "real you" is an open question. Personally, I think this conjecture from PigAlien (which I had missed the first time around, thanks, homonculus) might not be far off.
posted by soyjoy at 7:54 PM on November 7, 2003
To flip that "simply" on its head, I've long been fascinated by the correspondences between lucid dreaming and psychedelic experience. One is an "organic" state generated by the mind itself; the other is supposedly a simple reaction by the brain to a temporary infusion of alien or unbalanced chemicals. Yet ontologically they seem to have a lot in common, starting with, but not limited to, forcing you to live in a state where the "real you" is an open question. Personally, I think this conjecture from PigAlien (which I had missed the first time around, thanks, homonculus) might not be far off.
posted by soyjoy at 7:54 PM on November 7, 2003
soyjoy - brain-structure nanotubes facilitate quantum-level particle entanglement. Hence - action/causation/information transfer/ at a distance. But then, quantum physics has stated this larger effect (apart from Penrose's nanotube conjecture) quite explicitly, and decades ago.
It's all connected, dude....get used to it!
posted by troutfishing at 9:52 PM on November 7, 2003
It's all connected, dude....get used to it!
posted by troutfishing at 9:52 PM on November 7, 2003
I meant "simply" in the sense that despite his willingness to believe it's something else, I doubt the fact that he spoke out of his regular syntax means he was actually establishing a connection to the great beyond.
Troutfishing: I have no idea what you just said, but I'm going to use it sometime anyway.
posted by The God Complex at 10:32 PM on November 7, 2003
Troutfishing: I have no idea what you just said, but I'm going to use it sometime anyway.
posted by The God Complex at 10:32 PM on November 7, 2003
What ever happened to the "four day" heroin addiction treatment: three drugs, one to put you in a coma, one to purge the heroin from your blood, and a third to block its effects?
I heard that, while there is a risk from dying from anything that causes a coma, the main reason it wouldn't even be tested in the US was because of the profitability of methadone clinics. The rich guys who own dumpy clinics on skid row make a fortune from dispensing it and don't want to lose their very profitable, government subsidized clientele.
Does anybody know the real scoop?
Well, my guess would be that it doesn't work. Addiction is something a lot more complicated than can be treated with just a quick three day chemical overload. Anyone who gets addicted to heroin has already gone through a process of emotional/psychological dependency which withdrawal symptoms only reinforce. In order to exprience physical addiction to heroin, you have to use it every day for about three weeks; once you are at the point of using every day for those three weeks, you are already hooked, and the day you go into withdrawal for the first time just confirms your addiction. So, you can clean up that far, get past the immediate window of withdrawal (which lasts a lot longer than three days, by the way) but you're still a junkie until your behaviour has undergone a thorough reshuffling.
Trust me on this.
posted by jokeefe at 12:58 AM on November 8, 2003
I heard that, while there is a risk from dying from anything that causes a coma, the main reason it wouldn't even be tested in the US was because of the profitability of methadone clinics. The rich guys who own dumpy clinics on skid row make a fortune from dispensing it and don't want to lose their very profitable, government subsidized clientele.
Does anybody know the real scoop?
Well, my guess would be that it doesn't work. Addiction is something a lot more complicated than can be treated with just a quick three day chemical overload. Anyone who gets addicted to heroin has already gone through a process of emotional/psychological dependency which withdrawal symptoms only reinforce. In order to exprience physical addiction to heroin, you have to use it every day for about three weeks; once you are at the point of using every day for those three weeks, you are already hooked, and the day you go into withdrawal for the first time just confirms your addiction. So, you can clean up that far, get past the immediate window of withdrawal (which lasts a lot longer than three days, by the way) but you're still a junkie until your behaviour has undergone a thorough reshuffling.
Trust me on this.
posted by jokeefe at 12:58 AM on November 8, 2003
Not amazingly impressive results:
I'd be more impressed if there were X percents and Y months in there.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:04 AM on November 8, 2003
About one third of those patients have managed to stay clean - either permanently or for a considerable period; many have returned for a second treatment.So, after this drastic treatment two-thirds relapsed immediately. Of the other third, an unspecified proportion stayed clean for an unspecified period.
I'd be more impressed if there were X percents and Y months in there.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:04 AM on November 8, 2003
jokeefe: Well, the blocker drug works for about a month, and then a follow-up shot of it is given, so the junkie gets no effect from heroin for at least two months.
Apparently in Europe, where it was first devised, they had considerable success, but in its single trial in the US, they had a death. (Given the sorry state of health in many junkies, I am not surprised, but even so, why stop testing?)
Granted, a person in this situation strongly needs to have their life redirected, but that would be the same in any case. But what if all that redirection amounted to was "You no longer have to go out of your way to get to a Methadone clinic"? In other words, already out of the heroin culture, but not out of the methadone culture.
posted by kablam at 5:03 PM on November 8, 2003
Apparently in Europe, where it was first devised, they had considerable success, but in its single trial in the US, they had a death. (Given the sorry state of health in many junkies, I am not surprised, but even so, why stop testing?)
Granted, a person in this situation strongly needs to have their life redirected, but that would be the same in any case. But what if all that redirection amounted to was "You no longer have to go out of your way to get to a Methadone clinic"? In other words, already out of the heroin culture, but not out of the methadone culture.
posted by kablam at 5:03 PM on November 8, 2003
So what exactly is the difference between Mr Iboga and Dr. Bronner?
posted by Dagobert at 11:32 PM on November 9, 2003
posted by Dagobert at 11:32 PM on November 9, 2003
Elliot Smith tried that experimental addiction treatment (the coma method).
posted by mecran01 at 8:10 AM on November 10, 2003
posted by mecran01 at 8:10 AM on November 10, 2003
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