Tired of government-endorsed sin?
May 25, 2004 11:10 AM   Subscribe

Would you like to live in a Christian nation with government similar to the early United States? Well, here’s your chance! Are you disgusted that the gays are stomping on the Consitution? Do you demand the return to a moral government? Become part of the solution and help to redeem the nation, one seceded state at a time.
posted by archimago (76 comments total)
 
It's worth noting that they've borrowed the basic concept--but with quite different goals--from the Free State Project.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:14 AM on May 25, 2004


Gay marriage will be foisted upon us in the very near future

Will I be forced to marry a gay man? I'm not sure how my wife will react to this.
posted by psmealey at 11:14 AM on May 25, 2004


Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:17 AM on May 25, 2004


Bye.
posted by jon_kill at 11:19 AM on May 25, 2004


These people have never heard of Utah?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:19 AM on May 25, 2004


Do I have to actually join to donate? Who wants to help me create PleaseGetTheFuckOutAsSoonAsPossible.org ?
posted by badstone at 11:19 AM on May 25, 2004


It's great to see projects like the Free State and Exodus thing happen. It's basically an extension of the Nader Trader thing that happened in 2000, and more recently, Flash Mobs to some extent. You setup an idea and a site, and use the web to organize around it.

Even though they're not super successful, you couldn't even do this ten years ago.
posted by mathowie at 11:21 AM on May 25, 2004


I've been to South Carolina--and they can have it. Excellent solution!
posted by vraxoin at 11:21 AM on May 25, 2004


WooHoo!!

Finally a fundy idea I can wholeheartedly support!!

Let's corral them all into one tiny land mass, build a massive "security fence" around it and call it NewGazaStrip!

I mean, honestly, who says we can't do without Mississippi, or Alabama or South Carolina if it means ridding the rest of the US of the wingnut fundies? They're welfare states anyway and a big drain on the blue states. And no foreign aid for you!

Where do I donate to the cause?
posted by nofundy at 11:22 AM on May 25, 2004


i swear i remember something very similar happening with another group. they were going to wait until they had critical mass, then all move together to a small state like New Hampshire to take over the government. it was an FPP here, but i can't find it.

this one seems to have a big aversion to gay marriage. i would think abortion is a much stronger sell, but since that hasn't worked so far, i guess they're adapting to the times.

on preview: thanks, DA.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:23 AM on May 25, 2004


Christians have actively tried to return our entire land to its moral foundation for more than 20 years. We can categorically say that absolutely nothing has been achieved.

Beautiful.

This is fake, right?
posted by mbd1mbd1 at 11:23 AM on May 25, 2004


I think we've already learned that secession from the USA is not possible.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:25 AM on May 25, 2004


I tried to sign up to commitment level one (because things in America have already gone too far), but their signup script doesn't work so I'll just have to start gathering members right here in this thread.

Okay, who's with me?
posted by dobbs at 11:28 AM on May 25, 2004


If they end up going, it might be nice if they took the Freepers with them.
posted by psmealey at 11:28 AM on May 25, 2004


The whole idea is antibiblical, anyway. We are SUPPOSED to live among you heathens. ;-)
posted by konolia at 11:29 AM on May 25, 2004


this one seems to have a big aversion to gay marriage

Hate is a mighty motivator.

I second the "good riddance" feeling.
posted by archimago at 11:31 AM on May 25, 2004


The whole idea is antibiblical, anyway. We are SUPPOSED to live among you heathens. ;-)
posted by konolia at 11:29 AM PST on May 25


this one seems to have a big aversion to gay marriage

Hate is a mighty motivator.

I second the "good riddance" feeling.
posted by archimago at 11:31 AM PST on May 25


Ironic juxtaposition!
posted by dash_slot- at 11:39 AM on May 25, 2004


If they get South Carolina, can we at least keep Charleston? There's a lot of good restaurants there.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:45 AM on May 25, 2004


Let them leave the country and find/found their own theocratic country--it's not happening here, ever. This is like the libertarian thing, and has as much chance of happening as that does.

(I could see them doing it tho, with Judge Roy Moore as their first leader)
posted by amberglow at 11:45 AM on May 25, 2004


But I like making them uncomfortable with my sexual orientation. If they leave, how will I annoy them?
posted by benjh at 11:50 AM on May 25, 2004


These people have never heard of Utah?

I guess it doesn't count, having so many weirdo non-Christian Mormons, who thought of the same idea 150 years ago and sortof made it work for a while, in between being alternatively attacked and assimilated.
posted by weston at 11:53 AM on May 25, 2004


Oh, one other major difference between the two I should have mentioned, the goal of Christian Exodus is secession ("ChristianExodus.org is orchestrating the move of 50,000 or more Christians to one of three States for the express purpose of dissolving that State’s bond with the union."), while the Free State Project rejects it ("Q: Does the Free State Project promote secession? A: No, the Free State Project is not promoting secession.")
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:54 AM on May 25, 2004


This will be a great place. It will be a wonderful nation.

Absolutely wonderful, I tell you!





For me to poop on!
posted by madman at 11:56 AM on May 25, 2004


It's certainly an intriguing notion.

It is so much easier to run away from things we don't like than trying to find a middle ground and live and let live. But that doesn't necessarily make it a good thing to do.

I believe Gandhi said that figuring out how to create peace between the hindus and moslems in India was much more difficult than figuring out how to rid India of centuries of British rule. In the end, he agreed to support the creation of Pakistan. Maybe history will repeat itself...
posted by widdershins at 11:58 AM on May 25, 2004


i for one would enjoy watching the nations collective iq jump sharply as the exodus occurs.
posted by specialk420 at 11:58 AM on May 25, 2004


I'll pay for 111's plane ticket.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:17 PM on May 25, 2004


i hope they move to alabama, i'll sell them god damn "biblebama!" t-shirts.

50,000 right wing fruity loops would just be a drop in my barbeque-flavored fuck-it bucket, and what would they do? all work at some greasy chick-fil-a in Montgomery? gimme a break
posted by yeahyeahyeahwhoo at 12:18 PM on May 25, 2004


trying to find a middle ground and live and let live

There is, by definition, no middle ground for fundies, that's why they can't tolerate Democracy. Hence the profound irony of this site expressing reverence for the US Constitution, despite the fact that it's the Consitution that inflicted the evil of America on them to begin with.
posted by badstone at 12:26 PM on May 25, 2004


mathowie said:

Even though they're not super successful, you couldn't even do this ten years ago.

yeah, but at least they understand that your web site has to WORK in order to do it.
posted by quonsar at 12:30 PM on May 25, 2004


These people have no common sense.

Abortion continues against the wishes of many States
Which ones?; move then!
Children may not pray in our schools*
Yea right, silently with their Eyes Wide Open.
The Bible is not welcome in schools except under strict FEDERAL guidelines
Oh boy, school expulsion for carrying one in your pocket.
The 10 Commandments remain banned from public display
No we have written laws; even the non-christians have most of them memorization...AND their were more than 10.
Preaching Christianity will soon be outlawed as “hate speech”¹²
This is not "Canada"...think that is what they are referring too.
Gay marriage will be foisted upon us in the very near future
Hell yes!, shotgun gay marriages for All.
posted by thomcatspike at 12:37 PM on May 25, 2004


most of them memorizationed
posted by thomcatspike at 12:39 PM on May 25, 2004


There is, by definition, no middle ground for fundies, that's why they can't tolerate Democracy.

I bet the fundies would love to put much of their platform up for referendum. Much of what they've "lost" has been taken by judicial fiat, not legislative action, and definitely not by "democracy".
posted by trharlan at 12:42 PM on May 25, 2004


I seem to remember something like this happening in one of the books of Robert Anton Wilson's Schroedinger's Cat trilogy.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 12:45 PM on May 25, 2004


50,000 right wing fruity loops would just be a drop in my barbeque-flavored fuck-it bucket, and what would they do? all work at some greasy chick-fil-a in Montgomery? gimme a break

i for one would enjoy watching the nations collective iq jump sharply as the exodus occurs.


Yeah, because everybody knows that all devout Christians are stupid.
posted by trharlan at 12:47 PM on May 25, 2004


These people should move here.
Start up the time machine; minus 384 years, see ya!
posted by thomcatspike at 12:53 PM on May 25, 2004


384 years,
Damn! 375 years;should have just read the site.
Oh well; it's ok, since they seem ahead of thier time.
posted by thomcatspike at 12:55 PM on May 25, 2004


Much of what they've "lost" has been taken by judicial fiat, not legislative action, and definitely not by "democracy".

Best point made so far, trharlan. sincerely. but . . .

everybody knows that all devout Christians are stupid </sarcasm>

these xtians definately are. they want to do this via the web but they can't even configure a form mail script. kinda proves this ain't serious (and i don't mean it's a joke).
posted by danOstuporStar at 1:00 PM on May 25, 2004


Forget Colonial House times--let them try Puritan times...those guys could've mopped up the floor with them.
posted by amberglow at 1:09 PM on May 25, 2004


Anyone want to get a real-estate buying pool going with me?

a. Buy up as much land as possible in the three states.
b. Let theses nuts vote themselves into moving.
c. Majority of the houses/land available to buy owned by Mefites.
d. Jack up the prices.
e. Profit!!

Kills two birds with one stone, I say. Who's in?
posted by vignettist at 1:45 PM on May 25, 2004


amberglow, you're right.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:52 PM on May 25, 2004


A lot of people are dismissing these people and their idea out of hand, but I think it's imporant to remember that there is a large segment of the population who think America is really going in the wrong direction, which is where these ideas come from.

These people have "God" on their side, and are not even close to large enough to get everything they want out of the Government, just little scraps. So here's one idea, secede. But what of the other ideas? When you have a fundamentalist majority that feels that the country is going to Hell unless they do something right away... you get a very dangerour situation. Can the majority of the "angry christians" be pacified by scraps? What options do they have?
posted by chaz at 2:06 PM on May 25, 2004


sorry I meant "fundamentalist minority"
posted by chaz at 2:13 PM on May 25, 2004


you get a very dangerour situation. Can the majority of the "angry christians" be pacified by scraps? What options do they have?

They have to learn that this is a pluralistic society, and that separation of church and state is enshrined in the constitution. That's it--it's simple, really. It's their refusal to accept that that's the problem, not us. They have to get over themselves. No other group in America wants to change the whole system of government and trash the constitution the way they do. No other group in America wants to force everyone to live the way they do except for them. No other group in America has such blatant disregard for equal rights and non-discrimination as they do.
posted by amberglow at 2:15 PM on May 25, 2004


I just wanted to point out that the original form of government by and large was not christian. link

also, if this ever gets off the ground, i will donate to the cause. Imagine! We wouldn't even have to wait for the rapture!
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 2:16 PM on May 25, 2004


I think they should move to the middle east and declare Jerusalem as their capital city ... Oh, wait, that's been done already.
posted by Dillenger69 at 2:19 PM on May 25, 2004


Much of what they've "lost" has been taken by judicial fiat, not legislative action, and definitely not by "democracy".

So does that mean their theocratic Constitution will be "amended" to get rid of those pesky heathen checks and balances provided by the Judicial Branch and shoot for a blessed tyranny of the majority?
posted by badstone at 2:24 PM on May 25, 2004


Well Amberglow that sounds nice, but is it realistic? I fear that it is a looming problem in America, because their goals are not compatible with the constution, while the goals of their 'enemies' (Entertainment industry, Homosexuals, Doctors, Scientists) are for the most part easy to achieve within the framework of the constitution. SO they will (rightly) perceive that the "other side" keeps gaining ground while they are unable to gain traction.

Asking fundamentalists to just learn how to live within the system, when that system is actively changing in ways they percieve as dangerous may not be an option. Furthermore, because of the constituional restraints on the type of legislation they would really like to see, instead we get things like vouchers, which only encourage the fundamentalists to disengage further from the system.

Does a subculture of relgious extremists, educated in a special fundamentalist school system, with little stake in their society, a worldview at odds with the majority of their country, and no legal way to change the system to their liking sound familiar to anyone?
posted by chaz at 2:32 PM on May 25, 2004


But they're free to be disengaged if they want (and they are--with their home/christian schooling, etc.)

What they're not free to do is make over this country to their religious dictates. If they want to be all Waco/Koresh/Jim Jones about it, then fine--we'll deal with them then. There's nothing we can do otherwise but to stop them from changing our laws and constitution to suit themselves.

If they get violent about it, then we'll get violent with them. Even those Christian Identity people in the northwest haven't been growing or gaining followers, and that's what i think you're getting at, chaz.
posted by amberglow at 2:38 PM on May 25, 2004


Waco/Koresh/Jim Jones
Koresh was not in Waco, Waco was focal point as it was the closes known city on the map. These people are selfish, me me me which is not God's Will.
posted by thomcatspike at 2:55 PM on May 25, 2004


was the focal..., closest
posted by thomcatspike at 2:57 PM on May 25, 2004


They have to learn that this is a pluralistic society, and that separation of church and state is enshrined in the constitution. That's it--it's simple, really. It's their refusal to accept that that's the problem, not us.

i
love
amberglow.
posted by Ynoxas at 2:58 PM on May 25, 2004


Last time I checked, Mississippi has casinos. They wouldn't want to head there, even if the things are techically in the water. But then there's Biloxi and the Gulf Coast, with its wild and wooly history of corruption to deal with. Also, there's the Delta region, a third of the state, that would need casting off. It's heathen territory, despite the presence of many Baptists.

In Alabama, that would also mean getting rid of Mardi Gras in Mobile, which is a more "family-oriented" affair but still basically a multi-day drunk, not to mention beheading the judges who threw Roy Moore off the state Supreme Court.

It basically all comes down to your definition of Christianity, or whether you're accepting of Christian piety mixed with Deep South Bourbon craziness and skank/Dixie Mafia-type corruption.
posted by raysmj at 3:04 PM on May 25, 2004


Yeah, because everybody knows that all devout Christians are stupid.

For me, believing in a literal interpretation of the bible is clear evidence of stupidity. So is believing in a god who is infinitely just, and infinitely merciful at the same time.

Maybe 'deluded', 'gullible', 'illogical', and 'inconsistent' don't always add up to 'stupid', but in this case it is a sure bet.

The Heaven's Gate folks were quite devout in their beliefs, (and generally stupid, I think) but at least they could build a working website.
posted by bashos_frog at 3:05 PM on May 25, 2004


Mississippi? Uh, yeah. casinos. that's right. besides, I live in Mississippi, not that I like to actually admit it. Although I *would* enjoy getting my redneckmental giant neighbors the ole heave ho.
posted by Woney at 4:12 PM on May 25, 2004


maybe we have some empty islands somewhere? (maybe somewhere we did nuke tests?)

and love ya too, ynoxas wanna run up to Mass. and marry? ; >
posted by amberglow at 4:18 PM on May 25, 2004


IVE GOT IT! lets set aside some desolate chunk of land in the mid-west. Invite all the islamic extremists, then let the muslim and christian fundies duke it out.

Now *THATS* a reality tv show id actually watch.

or we could take up a collection and send em off.
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 4:23 PM on May 25, 2004


amberglow, islands?, how about Bikini.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:24 PM on May 25, 2004


Invite all the islamic extremists, then let the muslim and christian fundies duke it out.
Some of them are neighbors in the Dallas/FortWorth Metroplex.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:26 PM on May 25, 2004


yup...let them make a land of (radioactive)milk and honey.

How did Liberia get to be anyway? (that's the only successfulish place i can think of that was founded by people wanting out of here.)
posted by amberglow at 4:28 PM on May 25, 2004


(that's the only successfulish place i can think of that was founded by people wanting out of here.)

well, there's san francisco...:)
posted by jonmc at 5:57 PM on May 25, 2004


IVE GOT IT! lets set aside some desolate chunk of land in the mid-west. Invite all the islamic extremists, then let the muslim and christian fundies duke it out.

Tryptophan, that's the coolest idea I've ever seen you put forward here.
posted by Jimbob at 6:24 PM on May 25, 2004


IVE GOT IT! lets set aside some desolate chunk of land in the mid-west. Invite all the islamic extremists, then let the muslim and christian fundies duke it out.

Turns out it's the mid-west-bank.

/the scary door
posted by inpHilltr8r at 7:09 PM on May 25, 2004


Christians have actively tried to return our entire land to its moral foundation for more than 20 years.

Thomcatspike already brought up the PBS show Colonial House which was on this week. What's interesting there is that two of the big lessons of the series are that this supposed "moral foundation" never existed. One of the participants was a Southern Baptist preacher. His big lesson was that he realized the people who came here to "escape religious persecution" just ended up inflicting religious persecution on others. The other big lesson is that the majority of the colonists weren't here for religious reasons at all, but for economic opportunism - it was a get rich quick scheme, the "internet boom" of the 1600's.
posted by dnash at 8:48 PM on May 25, 2004


It's really sad to me that their site makes them seem so incompetent. Honestly, I would really, really love to see this happen. People like this are the chief reason the most powerful man in the world is an incompetent maniac. "Good riddance" to me is not a joke. As long as there was still relatively open immigration, I think this would be a great thing for everybody. They could be happy in their little theocracy, while the rest of the most powerful country in the world got that much saner. It reminds me most of the proposals for the red states to secede from the blue states, or vice versa - except that then the seceded red nation could still be a militarized rogue state that posed grave danger to the rest of the world, which wouldn't happen in this case.

The only people who would suffer from this would be any existing South Carolinians (or whichever) who were gay, atheistic, Muslim, etc. But overall there can't be THAT many of those, and as long as immigration did remain relatively open, they could still pack up and come to the other states.
posted by ramakrishna at 10:27 PM on May 25, 2004


lets set aside some desolate chunk of land in the mid-west. Invite all the islamic extremists, then let the muslim and christian fundies duke it out.


If you put it on pay-per-view, we could probably wipe out the deficit while we're at it.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:50 AM on May 26, 2004


The only people who would suffer from this would be any existing South Carolinians (or whichever) who were gay, atheistic, Muslim, etc. But overall there can't be THAT many of those

What makes you suppose that South Carolina has less of a percentage of gay residents than any other place?
posted by raysmj at 9:18 AM on May 26, 2004


Won't somebody think of the CHILDREN!!! how can we recommend bringing up the South Carolinian children in a theocracy? It's hard enough growing up there now.
posted by goneill at 9:53 AM on May 26, 2004



What makes you suppose that South Carolina has less of a percentage of gay residents than any other place?


Because there is free movement between states? The thought of a better life on the Off-world colonies?
posted by thirteen at 10:07 AM on May 26, 2004


thirteen: Do you think most people decide to be gay, or are born gay? Most every study out there shows that a certain percentage of the population - of the entire nation, and world - is gay. So you're saying it's OK to discriminate against the people born in South Carolina or minors or whatnot, because they can't move to some place like San Francisco? What if they're poor, as plenty of South Carolinians are? This is an exceedingly ignorant thing to say - that everyone should just move. Southerners tend to be more attached to place as a general rule anyway, especially in places like S.C. It matters not whether they're gay or straight.

Meanwhile, what you suggest doing about Charleston? Rumor has it that many gays kinda like the place.
posted by raysmj at 12:46 PM on May 26, 2004


Oh, and Myrtle Beach, SC too.
posted by raysmj at 1:04 PM on May 26, 2004


This is an exceedingly ignorant thing to say - that everyone should just move.

He didn't say that they should move, just that they most likely already had moved. Relax a bit.
posted by Mars Saxman at 1:48 PM on May 26, 2004


Actually, Mars, someone above did say that:

But overall there can't be THAT many of those, and as long as immigration did remain relatively open, they could still pack up and come to the other states.
posted by raysmj at 2:10 PM on May 26, 2004


But yeah, thirteen's comment is more rational. All the same, the percentage of gay couples in SC doesn't differ wildly from the national norm. (And that map's just based on self-reporting of same sex partnerships.) It ranks 26th in the number of self-reported gay couples, the same as it ranks in total population, according to none other than the U.S. Census Bureau.
posted by raysmj at 2:20 PM on May 26, 2004


If you put it on pay-per-view, we could probably wipe out the deficit while we're at it.

hee.

Yeah, the fact that mobility is really much less of a problem these days, and that in general people are less attached geographically (to the place of their birth, etc) means that ideas like this could actually eventually come to pass - or at least, it doesn't feel like it would be impossible.

If all the free market libertarians want to go ignore/scramble against each other, and all the fundies want to go repress/ delude one another, it seems as if it could happen. We've had countries with strong beliefs previously in history, but this would probably be the first time they came out of pluralistic societies. I wonder how much people would actually like it - how many would actually do it, or if a lot of people with fringe-y beliefs prefer to try to influence those who don't yet 'get it'. And I wonder if a bunch of other "theme" states would start popping up.

I think there would be a movement toward remaining pluralistic and unified, too, though. If the groups were small enough, giving them a little piece of florida or something would be fine with me. Giving them whole states - new hampshire and north carolina - seems a bit drastic, although I don't really have personal connections to either of those, so I'd accept it. But I wouldn't be able to give away maine or vermont, eg. Still, it's hard to support extremism even when they promise not to bother you...
posted by mdn at 7:46 PM on May 26, 2004


I don't know the statistics - I happily invite anyone to prove me wrong on this - but I would be quite surprised to find that SC had the same or larger proportion of gays (or at least out gays, which are the only kind you can collect data on) as, say, DC or California.

Regardless of whether that's the case, though, it's a fair question you raise - is it right that a few atheists and out gays in a certain state should have to move, in order that everyone else can be more comfortable with the place where they are? I suppose it depends on exactly what these people intend to do with South Carolina. If they intend that Leviticus's penalties for sodomy be enforced statewide, we have a problem, but I don't actually see that as their intention. Even if these people are fundamentalist enough to see that as a good thing, they'll be 50 000 versus a couple million existing South Carolinians. Again, correct me if I'm wrong on this as I don't know much about SC, but I can't imagine most SC people are that far gone. If their program was ever to succeed, they would have to moderate things considerably to give it some mass appeal. And if the issue they're most complaining about is gay marriage (rather than, say, sodomy per se) I think they're probably ready to do that. Which is to say that in the state they're aiming for, abortion would be illegal in all cases, pornography would be outlawed (possibly even with China-style controls placed on the Net to ensure this), and there would be mandatory prayer in public schools; sodomy might be illegal too, but there probably wouldn't be vice squads busting into people's homes to find it, and the penalty for it would probably not be too severe, a la the situation in most of the US before the recent Supreme Court decision on the subject.

All of which is to say, yeah, it would probably be very difficult for gays to remain in this new state, but not impossible. Which isn't so unlike the way things currently work. If you're gay and raised in Utah or Wyoming, chances are you've got a lot of reasons to leave, even though many do stay. It seems to me that an independent fundamentalist South Carolina would be a very similar situation, just one step more so. And if it meant that these people could have their own country and stop trying to wreck this one, I think it would probably be worth it.
posted by ramakrishna at 1:11 PM on May 27, 2004


get this:
You may have already read about Christian Exodus at Prairie Angel, BlondeSense, or Sound and Fury. It's an organization that is trying to take political control of a Southern state for the purpose of secession--they hope to create a fundamentalist Christian nation.
The idea sounded a lot like the Northwest Imperative to me, so I thought I'd go to their website and see who was behind it. Curiously, although they mention a Board of Directors, they don't list them nor do they list any of their backers.
I then did a little more googling and learned that the group's spokesman, Cory Burnell, promoted a similar plan called the Confederate State of America at the neo-confederate website, the Southern Caucus.

posted by amberglow at 3:46 PM on May 31, 2004


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