Thought crime or nought crime?
June 1, 2004 1:07 AM Subscribe
The reporter who described meeting the man who raped him as a teenager? He was arrested this week for felony stalking of the rapist.
Amazing story. I can imagine the thoughts traveling through the rapists mind on that streetcorner. Disturbing yet eye opening. It is obvious this case will go nowhere, the police are merely doing their job, because it is a safe assumption the police want the rapist busted as opposed to the victim.
posted by Keyser Soze at 2:36 AM on June 1, 2004
posted by Keyser Soze at 2:36 AM on June 1, 2004
Where do you live Keyser? This is America... we get thrown in JAIL for such things as POSSESSION of marijuana, not even selling the stuff. Don't worry.
You can sleep safe at night knowing the cops want this bastard rapist AND the stalker thrown in jail, along with their mothers, and anyone talking about the case is violating national security under the Patriot Act so they're coming for us next too.
posted by banished at 4:05 AM on June 1, 2004
You can sleep safe at night knowing the cops want this bastard rapist AND the stalker thrown in jail, along with their mothers, and anyone talking about the case is violating national security under the Patriot Act so they're coming for us next too.
posted by banished at 4:05 AM on June 1, 2004
"Any charges against me are essentially charges of thought crimes"
Yes, charges of thought crimes. Thought crimes and buying an illegal gun, presumably.
posted by ed\26h at 4:41 AM on June 1, 2004
Yes, charges of thought crimes. Thought crimes and buying an illegal gun, presumably.
posted by ed\26h at 4:41 AM on June 1, 2004
Only if they had a warrant and found the gun in his posession. Otherwise he is as likely to get brought up on gun charges as the other guy is to get charged with rape.
posted by bashos_frog at 5:06 AM on June 1, 2004
posted by bashos_frog at 5:06 AM on June 1, 2004
"Yes, charges of thought crimes. Thought crimes and buying an illegal gun, presumably."
Without the gun itself, which I presume he no longer has (he bought it for one reason only) the only evidence would be the story, and I am sure he could say he was exaggerating for effect.
That said, I believe that planning to kill someone is a real crime, called conspiracy to commit murder. Of course, the arguement is that we have probably all wanted to kill someone at one point or another, it's just a question of when it stops being an abstract fantasy and becomes a conspiracy.
Anyhow, this is an interesting development. I read the story when it was first posted here and I was almost awestruck. The rapist, I imagine, was probably quite concerned about his safety after the publication - and I imagine having a friend 'stalk' him was probably not the wisest decision. Hopefully however it will not go any further.
The thing that I found most moving about the original article was that both men were able to confront each other and talk about it. I can't imagine the emotions involved for either of them.
posted by sycophant at 5:13 AM on June 1, 2004
Without the gun itself, which I presume he no longer has (he bought it for one reason only) the only evidence would be the story, and I am sure he could say he was exaggerating for effect.
That said, I believe that planning to kill someone is a real crime, called conspiracy to commit murder. Of course, the arguement is that we have probably all wanted to kill someone at one point or another, it's just a question of when it stops being an abstract fantasy and becomes a conspiracy.
Anyhow, this is an interesting development. I read the story when it was first posted here and I was almost awestruck. The rapist, I imagine, was probably quite concerned about his safety after the publication - and I imagine having a friend 'stalk' him was probably not the wisest decision. Hopefully however it will not go any further.
The thing that I found most moving about the original article was that both men were able to confront each other and talk about it. I can't imagine the emotions involved for either of them.
posted by sycophant at 5:13 AM on June 1, 2004
> the only evidence would be the story, and I am sure he could say he
> was exaggerating for effect.
"You gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk"
- The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
posted by jfuller at 5:19 AM on June 1, 2004
> was exaggerating for effect.
"You gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk"
- The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
posted by jfuller at 5:19 AM on June 1, 2004
I don't understand why the rapist hasn't been charged. There is no statute of limitations in Alaska for felony sexual assault. It would seem to me that rather than following the guy around and plotting his murder, Mr. Holthouse would be better served lobbying LEAs in Alaska for prosecution.
Until Holthouse files a complaint in the right jurisdiction there isn't much the police can do. The published story isn't enough to arrest someone; either Holthouse was fictionalizing the events or he confessed to a felony (probably several) in a newspaper.
As cathartic as going public with this may have been for Holthouse it isn't necessarily the best way to get results. Following the guy around and letting relatives send letters to his neighbors is harrassment, not justice. I imagine the rapist has been thoroughly investigated by the local police and with the apparent lack of evidence indicating recent criminal activity Holthouse runs the risk of turning this guy into the victim.
posted by cedar at 6:06 AM on June 1, 2004
Until Holthouse files a complaint in the right jurisdiction there isn't much the police can do. The published story isn't enough to arrest someone; either Holthouse was fictionalizing the events or he confessed to a felony (probably several) in a newspaper.
As cathartic as going public with this may have been for Holthouse it isn't necessarily the best way to get results. Following the guy around and letting relatives send letters to his neighbors is harrassment, not justice. I imagine the rapist has been thoroughly investigated by the local police and with the apparent lack of evidence indicating recent criminal activity Holthouse runs the risk of turning this guy into the victim.
posted by cedar at 6:06 AM on June 1, 2004
As far as I can tell, the charges outlined in the second-link story are trivial, and won't result in much for Holthouse or his friend. Which is also to say that the justice system is incredibly complicated, and even though it seems to let people off when the evidence appears to support the worst possible conclusions, it may be that for some people, in some cases, it represents one of the best possible configurations for justice, in the sense that what appears to be obvious is not always the true story.
In this case, the only evidence that would ever, ever link these two came from Holthouse himself, published freely, and after this public admission, having someone "watch" the assaulter does seem to suggest that he was just more worried about what this guy might possibly do to his (Holthouse's) own family than any personal revenge fantasy, since he had evidently already made, discarded, and publicized the murder plan. Personally, I would continue to be very suspicious of someone who had done what the rapist had done, even if they claimedt that "it was the only time" and that they felt "really, really bad" about it. I could see myself trying to make sure that my family was protected, and I could absolutely see myself believing that this person's admissions and overtures were not to be trusted.
posted by taz at 6:19 AM on June 1, 2004
In this case, the only evidence that would ever, ever link these two came from Holthouse himself, published freely, and after this public admission, having someone "watch" the assaulter does seem to suggest that he was just more worried about what this guy might possibly do to his (Holthouse's) own family than any personal revenge fantasy, since he had evidently already made, discarded, and publicized the murder plan. Personally, I would continue to be very suspicious of someone who had done what the rapist had done, even if they claimedt that "it was the only time" and that they felt "really, really bad" about it. I could see myself trying to make sure that my family was protected, and I could absolutely see myself believing that this person's admissions and overtures were not to be trusted.
posted by taz at 6:19 AM on June 1, 2004
planning to kill someone is a real crime, called conspiracy to commit murder.
ridiculous. conspiracy implies more than one person. an individuals private thoughts can never be conspiracy.
posted by quonsar at 6:19 AM on June 1, 2004
ridiculous. conspiracy implies more than one person. an individuals private thoughts can never be conspiracy.
posted by quonsar at 6:19 AM on June 1, 2004
conspiracy implies more than one person. an individuals private thoughts can never be conspiracy.
Ah, shades of law school. I think you're correct for common-law conspiracy, but in Model Penal Code jurisdictions, one can "conspire" even if the other person doesn't agree or is feigning complicity. Still, you generally do need another person. Perhaps he'll be charged with attempted murder instead.
I'm pretty sure buying an unregistered gun would count as a "substantial step" in those jurisdictions that require it, while staking out the guy's house shows proximity to completion of the crime. In Model Penal Code jurisdictions, he might get off because he abandoned his attempt for reasons of his own, but in other places, abandonment doesn't work as a defense to attempt.
posted by spacewrench at 7:18 AM on June 1, 2004
Ah, shades of law school. I think you're correct for common-law conspiracy, but in Model Penal Code jurisdictions, one can "conspire" even if the other person doesn't agree or is feigning complicity. Still, you generally do need another person. Perhaps he'll be charged with attempted murder instead.
I'm pretty sure buying an unregistered gun would count as a "substantial step" in those jurisdictions that require it, while staking out the guy's house shows proximity to completion of the crime. In Model Penal Code jurisdictions, he might get off because he abandoned his attempt for reasons of his own, but in other places, abandonment doesn't work as a defense to attempt.
posted by spacewrench at 7:18 AM on June 1, 2004
the police are merely doing their job
Yes, and I feel so much safer knowing that whenever the (would be) perp publishes his intent in an article, the police will be right on it. With such diligence and penetrating investigative skills, it's a wonder there's any crime at all.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:55 AM on June 1, 2004
Yes, and I feel so much safer knowing that whenever the (would be) perp publishes his intent in an article, the police will be right on it. With such diligence and penetrating investigative skills, it's a wonder there's any crime at all.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:55 AM on June 1, 2004
You can't plan to kill someone, buy a gun to commit the crime with and expect to not be arrested - regardless of the motive for doing it nor the moment along the timeline in which your story plan was discovered.
posted by tomplus2 at 11:17 AM on June 1, 2004
posted by tomplus2 at 11:17 AM on June 1, 2004
an individuals private thoughts can never be conspiracy.
Published thoughts are private?
Say a person who read the article killed the author's intended victim. Would there be a difference here than Charles Manson's murder convictions.
posted by thomcatspike at 11:26 AM on June 1, 2004
Published thoughts are private?
Say a person who read the article killed the author's intended victim. Would there be a difference here than Charles Manson's murder convictions.
posted by thomcatspike at 11:26 AM on June 1, 2004
You can't plan to kill someone, buy a gun to commit the crime with and expect to not be arrested
Sure I can. I can sit here in my house and formulate a plan to kill any old person I wanna kill, and I can go to the gun store and jump through the hoops and buy whatever old gun I want, and I haven't broken a single law. I can even tell everyone I meet on the way "Hey, I'm going to go buy a gun so that I can kill Bob Smith!" and the most I can be charged with, perhaps, is making terroristic threats, and that varies widely based upon jurisdiction. Planning (on your own) to commit a crime isn't illegal. Buying a gun (legally) in order to commit that crime isn't illegal.
Can we please stop with these ridiculous assertions about what can and can't get you arrested?
posted by Dreama at 11:58 AM on June 1, 2004
Sure I can. I can sit here in my house and formulate a plan to kill any old person I wanna kill, and I can go to the gun store and jump through the hoops and buy whatever old gun I want, and I haven't broken a single law. I can even tell everyone I meet on the way "Hey, I'm going to go buy a gun so that I can kill Bob Smith!" and the most I can be charged with, perhaps, is making terroristic threats, and that varies widely based upon jurisdiction. Planning (on your own) to commit a crime isn't illegal. Buying a gun (legally) in order to commit that crime isn't illegal.
Can we please stop with these ridiculous assertions about what can and can't get you arrested?
posted by Dreama at 11:58 AM on June 1, 2004
I can go to the gun store and jump through the hoops and buy whatever old gun I want, and I haven't broken a single law.
Unfortunately, according to Holthouse's essay, he purchased the gun illegally, and paid to have the serial number filed off and the barrel scratched up.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:20 PM on June 1, 2004
Unfortunately, according to Holthouse's essay, he purchased the gun illegally, and paid to have the serial number filed off and the barrel scratched up.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:20 PM on June 1, 2004
Dreama: Planning (on your own) to commit a crime isn't illegal.
I dunno, Dreama, he published in the public record - in quite a detailed manner - his intent to humiliate and kill the (alleged) perp... I'd say that's significantly more threatening than sitting back on the couch and nursing a revenge fantasy over a brew or two... "I've got the gun, I'm standing here on this subway platform, and I'm going to waste every man, woman and child that gets off the next train! And the best part is, I can't be stopped, 'cause ain't nobody actually dead yet!"
posted by JollyWanker at 2:13 PM on June 1, 2004
I dunno, Dreama, he published in the public record - in quite a detailed manner - his intent to humiliate and kill the (alleged) perp... I'd say that's significantly more threatening than sitting back on the couch and nursing a revenge fantasy over a brew or two... "I've got the gun, I'm standing here on this subway platform, and I'm going to waste every man, woman and child that gets off the next train! And the best part is, I can't be stopped, 'cause ain't nobody actually dead yet!"
posted by JollyWanker at 2:13 PM on June 1, 2004
mr_roboto and JollyWanker, you're right, within the specifics of this case. However, I was replying strictly to tomplus2's very general and very incorrect statement. If he was intending to address this particular case, he should have been more specific.
posted by Dreama at 10:14 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by Dreama at 10:14 PM on June 1, 2004
« Older In Memoriam | Would all moral thugs please stand up. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
... Holthouse's mother sent letters to the man's neighbors in a Broomfield housing development. The letters warned of the man's past, Holthouse said.
On Friday, saying he was fearful the man would retaliate against his parents, Holthouse asked a friend to watch the man and make sure he did not travel to the airport.
His friend, identified by police as Nelson Guanipa, 29, was arrested Saturday on suspicion of stalking. Holthouse said he went to Broomfield to bail Guanipa out of jail and was arrested himself.
posted by futureproof at 2:22 AM on June 1, 2004