Michael Moore calls you stupid
June 27, 2004 11:29 AM Subscribe
Michael Moore calls you stupid - if you are an American. Well, not so much stupid, but uneducated and in need of a smarter man than you are to guide your poor brain. Which, of course, should be him. And this isn't the first time. Apparently, you and I, as Americans, are stupid and uneducated (our international MeFites, please feel free to feel smug and superior). Also, Saddam Hussein was only a bad guy when he was funded by Americans, according to the first interview. This may be why, on the weekend of the release of Farenheit 911, Americans are flocking to see it in record numbers. (bit of a followup to Rastafari's post , since the numbers have moved past Drudge and into the "mainstream") A fascinating cultural moment, to be sure. Love him or hate him, Michael Moore (and Howard Stern) may change the political face of America while insulting your intelligence at the same time.
This post was deleted for the following reason: keee-rist. tone it down a little, huh?
I don't think your link backs up your assertion. Rather than assert the stupidity of his audience, he asserted the dearth of his point of view in the mainstream media. By the way, wouldn't your post have been more appropriate as a comment to yesterday's MM post?
posted by caddis at 11:41 AM on June 27, 2004
posted by caddis at 11:41 AM on June 27, 2004
I call American's stupid all the time? Can you write up a FPP about me too! I think Moore, and many other people in the world, get frustrated with the apparent ignorance that seems to pervade the US.
posted by chunking express at 11:43 AM on June 27, 2004
posted by chunking express at 11:43 AM on June 27, 2004
Michael Moore calls you stupid, not me.
He calls people stupid who believe that pack of incompetent liars currently in power. He calls those stupid who defend our stupid president out of loyalty (?), fear(?), why is it exactly you folks defend him?
If the shoe fits...
posted by jpburns at 11:46 AM on June 27, 2004
He calls people stupid who believe that pack of incompetent liars currently in power. He calls those stupid who defend our stupid president out of loyalty (?), fear(?), why is it exactly you folks defend him?
If the shoe fits...
posted by jpburns at 11:46 AM on June 27, 2004
Priceless:
MOORE: It's our allies, the Saudis, that have been providing help and aid to the suicide bombers in Israel. That's the story you should be covering. Why don't you cover that story? Why don't you cover it?
TAPPER: I've been told that's all the time we have. Thank you very much for this spirited debate, I appreciate your time, good luck with the movie.
posted by rainking at 11:50 AM on June 27, 2004
MOORE: It's our allies, the Saudis, that have been providing help and aid to the suicide bombers in Israel. That's the story you should be covering. Why don't you cover that story? Why don't you cover it?
TAPPER: I've been told that's all the time we have. Thank you very much for this spirited debate, I appreciate your time, good luck with the movie.
posted by rainking at 11:50 AM on June 27, 2004
Are you stupid if you apparently misunderstand the point of the articles that you link to?
Or is swerdloff being disingenuous?
posted by pixelgeek at 11:51 AM on June 27, 2004
Or is swerdloff being disingenuous?
posted by pixelgeek at 11:51 AM on June 27, 2004
Well, not so much stupid, but uneducated and in need of a smarter man than you are to guide your poor brain. Which, of course, should be him.
Who ? Swerdloff ? That much is obvious. Ladies and gentlemen, it's
the All Time Ouroboros Op-Ed of Projection.
posted by y2karl at 11:54 AM on June 27, 2004
Who ? Swerdloff ? That much is obvious. Ladies and gentlemen, it's
the All Time Ouroboros Op-Ed of Projection.
posted by y2karl at 11:54 AM on June 27, 2004
if you are an American. Well, not so much stupid, but uneducated and in need of a smarter man than you are to guide your poor brain.
This is opinion based on nothing said in the article you link to.
Opinion is well and good but if you want to link to a story with a comment like that maybe it might be an idea to have the comment reflect the content in the story and not your presuppositions about Moore.
posted by pixelgeek at 11:57 AM on June 27, 2004
This is opinion based on nothing said in the article you link to.
Opinion is well and good but if you want to link to a story with a comment like that maybe it might be an idea to have the comment reflect the content in the story and not your presuppositions about Moore.
posted by pixelgeek at 11:57 AM on June 27, 2004
Well, let's look at the numbers. Before going to war, Americans thought (despite warnings from liberal Cassandra's everywhere) that taking out Saddam would make the world a safer place. Now when asked if they feel the world is a safer place, most Americans don't think so.
I call that pretty stupid.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:58 AM on June 27, 2004
I call that pretty stupid.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:58 AM on June 27, 2004
I came upon this little-know remark by Moore in Little Green Footballs and posted it at a group site. For MM to link a country with a company and a fuel (the fuel and company related) seems hoplessly dumb. Or worse.
"[...]Before a delighted Cambridge crowd, Moore reflected on the tragedy of human existence: “You’re stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe."
In Liverpool, he paused to contemplate the epicenters of evil in the modern world: “It’s all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Halliburton.”
How to go, Mike! Please expand on this odd connection for your next film.
posted by Postroad at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2004
"[...]Before a delighted Cambridge crowd, Moore reflected on the tragedy of human existence: “You’re stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe."
In Liverpool, he paused to contemplate the epicenters of evil in the modern world: “It’s all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Halliburton.”
How to go, Mike! Please expand on this odd connection for your next film.
posted by Postroad at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2004
A Michael Moore bashing post? Wiw... this is news.
FahrenheitFilter.
posted by insomnia_lj at 12:06 PM on June 27, 2004
FahrenheitFilter.
posted by insomnia_lj at 12:06 PM on June 27, 2004
swerdloff calls you stupid - if you read MetaFilter. Well, not so much stupid, but uneducated and in need of a smarter man than you are to guide your poor brain. Which, of course, should be him. And this isn't the first time.
posted by Silune at 12:07 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by Silune at 12:07 PM on June 27, 2004
Drudge had the same item. This is just reactionary dittoing.
posted by anser at 12:16 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by anser at 12:16 PM on June 27, 2004
Apparently, in addition to poor spelling, I made my point poorly.
All my point is is that Moore's film, with its unprecedented ability to change the face of US politics, is coming from the same guy who said "The American people are not that aware that Saddam Hussein was our ally, that we helped to create the Saddam Hussein that he became" (asserting our ignorance of things that were on the front page of the NYTimes) and said "We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing" (Asserting our stupidity)
To me, that amounts to "Americans are stupid and ignorant." You may not count yourself among those "Americans" if you want, makes no difference to me, but he certainly does. Unless there was a specific "except MeFites" provision in those statements that was edited?
And this is the man that's likely going to change the face of American Politics in favor of Kerry, getting rid of Bush for all of us. Nobody else sees that as strange? Not that getting rid of Bush is a bad thing.
And, umm, this wasn't meant as a Moore-bashing post (note links to how well his movie doing, and how at least one person wants to draft him for the presidency) just a post point out the strange incongruence of giving a man money who says, explicitly, time and again, that he thinks you are ignorant.
Here I thought I'd made a nuanced post...
(Although, in a nugget I'd previously missed, his line "No, because nothing you just said is proof that the Iraqi government ever murdered an American citizen. And I am still waiting for you to present that proof" echoes directly the holocaust deniers language that I've seen... NOT THAT MOORE IS TO BE COMPARED TO THEM - He is NOT, it's just an odd rhetorical choice considering how not-ignorant he must be to hold us in contempt like he does, he ought to be aware of how that sounds)
posted by swerdloff at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2004
All my point is is that Moore's film, with its unprecedented ability to change the face of US politics, is coming from the same guy who said "The American people are not that aware that Saddam Hussein was our ally, that we helped to create the Saddam Hussein that he became" (asserting our ignorance of things that were on the front page of the NYTimes) and said "We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing" (Asserting our stupidity)
To me, that amounts to "Americans are stupid and ignorant." You may not count yourself among those "Americans" if you want, makes no difference to me, but he certainly does. Unless there was a specific "except MeFites" provision in those statements that was edited?
And this is the man that's likely going to change the face of American Politics in favor of Kerry, getting rid of Bush for all of us. Nobody else sees that as strange? Not that getting rid of Bush is a bad thing.
And, umm, this wasn't meant as a Moore-bashing post (note links to how well his movie doing, and how at least one person wants to draft him for the presidency) just a post point out the strange incongruence of giving a man money who says, explicitly, time and again, that he thinks you are ignorant.
Here I thought I'd made a nuanced post...
(Although, in a nugget I'd previously missed, his line "No, because nothing you just said is proof that the Iraqi government ever murdered an American citizen. And I am still waiting for you to present that proof" echoes directly the holocaust deniers language that I've seen... NOT THAT MOORE IS TO BE COMPARED TO THEM - He is NOT, it's just an odd rhetorical choice considering how not-ignorant he must be to hold us in contempt like he does, he ought to be aware of how that sounds)
posted by swerdloff at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2004
And why do we need two Michael Moore FPPs in less than 24 hours? Couldn't Swerdloff have restricted his observations to comments in the previous post less than ten FPPs back?
Junk it.
posted by insomnia_lj at 12:29 PM on June 27, 2004
Junk it.
posted by insomnia_lj at 12:29 PM on June 27, 2004
It also echoes the language of anyone who hasn't been presented with any evidence of something. If Moore isn't to be compared to holocaust deniers why even bring them up?
posted by biffa at 12:33 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by biffa at 12:33 PM on June 27, 2004
You don't know what you don't know. If you're kept in the dark about something -- enforced ignorance -- it's not necessarily the same as being stupid.
posted by crunchland at 12:34 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by crunchland at 12:34 PM on June 27, 2004
You actually made your point pretty well. It's just that the point itself isn't all that good.
posted by rks404 at 12:34 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by rks404 at 12:34 PM on June 27, 2004
Oh fucking quit it with the goddamned Michael Moore posts.
posted by xmutex at 12:35 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by xmutex at 12:35 PM on June 27, 2004
MetaFilter: I thought I'd made a nuanced post...
posted by homunculus at 12:36 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by homunculus at 12:36 PM on June 27, 2004
swerdloff, why do you think Moore used phrases like "we don't know," and "our stupidity," when he clearly doesn't believe himself to be either ignorant or stupid? Obviously, he isn't saying that every single American is ignorant and stupid, and he certainly doesn't believe that of me in particular. He's saying that Americans are in general more ignorant and stupid than people in other industrialized countries. And if you don't think that's true, I'd love to see any evidence you have to the contrary.
posted by Silune at 12:37 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by Silune at 12:37 PM on June 27, 2004
Metafilter: Oh fucking quit it with the goddamned _______________ posts
posted by Outlawyr at 12:47 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by Outlawyr at 12:47 PM on June 27, 2004
Enforced ignorance my arse. Wilfull, more like.
Perhaps since 9/11 more of you are interested in foreign news, but before then I didn't see sweet fuckall coverage of the outside world. And this wasn't a policy imposed - this was the news media satisying its market, which by and large didn't give a shit about anything outside the US.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2004
Perhaps since 9/11 more of you are interested in foreign news, but before then I didn't see sweet fuckall coverage of the outside world. And this wasn't a policy imposed - this was the news media satisying its market, which by and large didn't give a shit about anything outside the US.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2004
Also, Saddam Hussein was only a bad guy when he was funded by Americans, according to the first interview.
Aside from your miscaracterization of his statement (you'll have to show me where Moore said that Saddam was "not a bad guy"), he pretty much did all his mass killing when the US _was_ supporting him.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2004
Aside from your miscaracterization of his statement (you'll have to show me where Moore said that Saddam was "not a bad guy"), he pretty much did all his mass killing when the US _was_ supporting him.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2004
Please kill this post -- "Michael Moore thinks you're stupid"? In what way is this more appropriate than one that claims "Michael Moore hates America"? This is is an opinion piece and it belongs on your blog, if you have one. A few obvious links to mainstream sources (and a cute google search) don't change that.
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:49 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:49 PM on June 27, 2004
If I'm stupid for seeing Moore as an entertainer and not a messiah, so be it.
*makes brble brble brble noises by flapping his finger over his lips*
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:49 PM on June 27, 2004
*makes brble brble brble noises by flapping his finger over his lips*
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:49 PM on June 27, 2004
"(asserting our ignorance of things that were on the front page of the NYTimes)"
If Americans - hell even 40% of Americans - knew what was on the front page of yesterday's NYT, they would be a lot less stupid. For all its failings, the NYT is a decent paper of record and it isn't as widely read and its stories aren't as widely distributed as they should be.
posted by jmgorman at 12:51 PM on June 27, 2004
If Americans - hell even 40% of Americans - knew what was on the front page of yesterday's NYT, they would be a lot less stupid. For all its failings, the NYT is a decent paper of record and it isn't as widely read and its stories aren't as widely distributed as they should be.
posted by jmgorman at 12:51 PM on June 27, 2004
Not knowing about some world political event of the past 20 years is not the same thing as being stupid. Moore is saying, probably accurately, that most Americans were not aware of the extent to which Saddam (like a lot of other rotten strongmen) owed his power to our support in the first place. One of the quasi-orchestrated "responses" to Moore's new movie is to seize on these quotes and use the finest 5th grade logic to chant: He called you stuuu-pid, he called you stuuu-pid...
posted by anser at 12:53 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by anser at 12:53 PM on June 27, 2004
Couldn't Swerdloff have restricted his observations to comments in the previous post less than ten FPPs back?
Junk it.
In fact, let's trash all the posts that go against the MeFi majority grain and engage in mutual self-affirming masturbation in every thread. I also recall many "save Moore bashing till when the movie comes out" posts. Well, the film's out now... why try to suppress criticism of it the way many here have claimed the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy has tried to suppress the film itself? It only creates more publicity for Moore anyway.
posted by Krrrlson at 12:57 PM on June 27, 2004
Junk it.
In fact, let's trash all the posts that go against the MeFi majority grain and engage in mutual self-affirming masturbation in every thread. I also recall many "save Moore bashing till when the movie comes out" posts. Well, the film's out now... why try to suppress criticism of it the way many here have claimed the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy has tried to suppress the film itself? It only creates more publicity for Moore anyway.
posted by Krrrlson at 12:57 PM on June 27, 2004
In fact, let's trash all the posts that go against the MeFi majority grain and engage in mutual self-affirming masturbation in every thread.
actually, let's just trash bad posts.
posted by mcsweetie at 1:01 PM on June 27, 2004
actually, let's just trash bad posts.
posted by mcsweetie at 1:01 PM on June 27, 2004
Michael Moore thinks you're stupid, and he hates america. He also probably kills babies for amusement, and might be in league with the Trilateral Commission (to say nothing of the Gnomes of Zurich.)
...there, are we done now? Because that's about as sophisticated and nuanced as the rest of this crap.
posted by aramaic at 1:02 PM on June 27, 2004
...there, are we done now? Because that's about as sophisticated and nuanced as the rest of this crap.
posted by aramaic at 1:02 PM on June 27, 2004
If anyone is stupid enough to believe the lies in Michael Moore's movie, then his point that Americans are stupid are making him a very rich man. He should detest himself...one who preaches against the "rich" while grabbing all the "American idiot's money"...someone who preaches on not making a profit on the 9/11 tragedies, he's laughing all the way to the bank. He's a vile sub-human.
posted by Sonserae at 1:02 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by Sonserae at 1:02 PM on June 27, 2004
Michael Moore can show an accidental death of an Iraqi baby and say how horrific it is while he marches in favor of mothers who intentionally kill their babies.
He detests the "rich" but hires someone to take all the red M&Ms out of his candy bowls, charters private planes, buys mansions, and is profiting on his hypocritical preaching while intentionally calling half-truths, deceit and outright lies "the truth".
posted by Sonserae at 1:08 PM on June 27, 2004
He detests the "rich" but hires someone to take all the red M&Ms out of his candy bowls, charters private planes, buys mansions, and is profiting on his hypocritical preaching while intentionally calling half-truths, deceit and outright lies "the truth".
posted by Sonserae at 1:08 PM on June 27, 2004
The amount of Americans who A: Did not recieve proper education and B: Prefer a simple life, even if that life is tinged with cognitive dissolution are very large. No, I don't have a link. Trust me.
posted by Keyser Soze at 1:09 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by Keyser Soze at 1:09 PM on June 27, 2004
Is it my imagination, or are Metafilter and Metatalk converging?
ON PREVIEW: TRHarlan, sure, it's smart to change your opinion if evidence is to the contrary. But it's dumb to fail to see the obvious -- e.g., people who thought that replacing Saddam Hussein with a regme perceived as puppets to America would have a stabilizing influence, clearly hadn't thought the matter through very carefully...
posted by lodurr at 1:09 PM on June 27, 2004
ON PREVIEW: TRHarlan, sure, it's smart to change your opinion if evidence is to the contrary. But it's dumb to fail to see the obvious -- e.g., people who thought that replacing Saddam Hussein with a regme perceived as puppets to America would have a stabilizing influence, clearly hadn't thought the matter through very carefully...
posted by lodurr at 1:09 PM on June 27, 2004
If anyone is stupid enough to believe the lies in Michael Moore's movie...
Sonserae, you'd be a lot more compelling if you were to actually enumerate the lies & deceit. Simply stating something isn't very convincing. You may have noticed this while watching the film.
posted by aramaic at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2004
Sonserae, you'd be a lot more compelling if you were to actually enumerate the lies & deceit. Simply stating something isn't very convincing. You may have noticed this while watching the film.
posted by aramaic at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2004
"while he marches in favor of mothers who intentionally kill their babies." I must have been asleep during that scene of the movie. Are you talking about abortion? Who told you he hires someone to take the red M&Ms out of his candy bowl?
posted by Keyser Soze at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by Keyser Soze at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2004
I read an interview with someone who used to work for Michael Moore. He said he's the most egomaniacal person on the planet, the most difficult person he has ever worked with, is demanding, a DIVA and out and out crazy out of his head. He said that when he was in high school, he picketed the school to try and get rid of "prom night" because he was so butt ugly no one would go with him. The guy's anger and bitterness come from childhood and have nothing to do with today's issues. He projects the crap he went through in childhood onto current events because he has to be angry about something all the time. He's a miserably unhappy person. If he always roots for the underdog....even if their evil terrorists, somehow he's validating his own feelings of being an underdog.
posted by Sonserae at 1:21 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by Sonserae at 1:21 PM on June 27, 2004
Ah, Metafilter. Don't ever change.
"I read an interview with someone who used to work for Michael Moore." Great. Link? Cut and Paste? In some way supply the text of this interview and its source? No?
Your psychoanalysis of a man you do not know and have not met based on an interview you read somewhere is about as germaine to the discussion of Moore's movie as would be phrenological analysis of him from photographs of his head or a nice tea leaf reading. Provide your evidence and your credentials, please. Or don't, and be dismissed.
posted by Ezrael at 1:29 PM on June 27, 2004
"I read an interview with someone who used to work for Michael Moore." Great. Link? Cut and Paste? In some way supply the text of this interview and its source? No?
Your psychoanalysis of a man you do not know and have not met based on an interview you read somewhere is about as germaine to the discussion of Moore's movie as would be phrenological analysis of him from photographs of his head or a nice tea leaf reading. Provide your evidence and your credentials, please. Or don't, and be dismissed.
posted by Ezrael at 1:29 PM on June 27, 2004
What does Moore apparently being "difficult" have to do with anything?
(scratched the rest of my long winded rant in favour of "What Ezrael said")
posted by Quartermass at 1:32 PM on June 27, 2004
(scratched the rest of my long winded rant in favour of "What Ezrael said")
posted by Quartermass at 1:32 PM on June 27, 2004
I knew this guy who worked for Michael Moore and said that Moore was a child rapist and like had these stables of little kids in the basements of each of his twelve mansions and these basements, this guy said, were more like dungeons, with guards and everything, and these weird sex slave kids, most of which (yes, which, not whom, because to Moore these kids were objects, the guy said) were kept in cells all during the day and when Moore was done with one of the kids, you know, sexually, he would have the kid killed and then he'd fucking eat the kid, like no shit eat him; just broil the kid's little body with some like asparagus and the have it with some Dom Perignon, I shit you not, according to this guy, this guy that I know, from back east.
He is also a big Yankees fan.
posted by xmutex at 1:35 PM on June 27, 2004
He is also a big Yankees fan.
posted by xmutex at 1:35 PM on June 27, 2004
Can the vast right wing conspiracy really not do any better than this?
November here we come :)
posted by Space Coyote at 1:41 PM on June 27, 2004
November here we come :)
posted by Space Coyote at 1:41 PM on June 27, 2004
http://moorewatch.com/
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/
http://www.moorelies.com/
posted by Sonserae at 1:46 PM on June 27, 2004
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/
http://www.moorelies.com/
posted by Sonserae at 1:46 PM on June 27, 2004
http://www.Sonseraeisatroll.com/
http://www.Sonseraeiscontributingnothingtothisdiscussion.com/
http://www.Sonseraecan'tspeakforhimself.com/
http://www.Sonseraethinkspersonalflawshavesomethingtodowiththequalityofafilm.com/
posted by Space Coyote at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2004
http://www.Sonseraeiscontributingnothingtothisdiscussion.com/
http://www.Sonseraecan'tspeakforhimself.com/
http://www.Sonseraethinkspersonalflawshavesomethingtodowiththequalityofafilm.com/
posted by Space Coyote at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2004
I looked through this article to try and find where Micheal Moore calls Americans stupid, and I can't.
posted by xammerboy at 1:58 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by xammerboy at 1:58 PM on June 27, 2004
Ah, MetaFilter, where a celebrity can be called a vile subhuman in the
irony free sense of the phrase: aka Michael Morlock.
You forgot the and has like little suede wallets made out of their tiny little buttcheeks part, I think, xmutex.
posted by y2karl at 2:00 PM on June 27, 2004
irony free sense of the phrase: aka Michael Morlock.
You forgot the and has like little suede wallets made out of their tiny little buttcheeks part, I think, xmutex.
posted by y2karl at 2:00 PM on June 27, 2004
Part of Michael Moore's appeal is his image as an ordinary American, an NRA member, even. When he repeats that canard about how Americans are ignorant because a lot of them don't have passports, it really calls his sincerity into question. One can probably guess that many of the working-class people of Flint for whom he claimed to have so much empathy aren't among those Americans who are prepared to take off on a jaunt through Europe at the slightest provocation. He may have made "Fahrenheit 9/11" to appeal to swing voters, but these kinds of comments will do nothing but alienate them, and it's not trolling to point that out.
(And the "he must hate America" thing is getting really old.)
posted by transona5 at 2:06 PM on June 27, 2004
(And the "he must hate America" thing is getting really old.)
posted by transona5 at 2:06 PM on June 27, 2004
two smirking, humorless assholes vs. a bunch of reasonable, witty moore supporters... i'm embarrassed to be skeptical of him now.
posted by luckyclone at 2:09 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by luckyclone at 2:09 PM on June 27, 2004
http://www.moorelies.com/
Well its rather difficult to accept anything published on a site that has this
The Website for RIGHT thinking Americans.
Not for liberal media sheep.
as a tagline.
posted by pixelgeek at 2:11 PM on June 27, 2004
Well its rather difficult to accept anything published on a site that has this
The Website for RIGHT thinking Americans.
Not for liberal media sheep.
as a tagline.
posted by pixelgeek at 2:11 PM on June 27, 2004
ignorant and stupid
Do most of you use these words as synonyms? If so, why use both? Or is "ignorant and stupid" a phrase like ("sick and tired") that means “un-informed”?
Because I'm uninformed. I don't read the front page of the New York Times (because I don't like to). But I'm not stupid. By "I'm not stupid," I mean I have an above-average ability to combine multiple known facts or ideas into new concepts. I can figure out hard puzzles. I can and do learn all sorts of new things easily.
The claim that Americans are more ignorant (of a particular subject) than people in other countries is a interesting (and perhaps valid) claim to make (though I've never seen much besides anecdotal evidence to back it up).
The claim that Americans are stupider (as in they have a lower IQ) than people in other countries is an extraordinary claim, and I've never seen any extraordinary evidence to back it up. Perhaps it's just a prejudice.
As someone who doesn't like politics, I've noticed that many people use one's understanding of complex political facts as a measure of intelligence. But this measure assumes that everyone is interested in politics to begin with. Which isn't the case. Likewise, it would be odd to assume that only people who understand how to play chess are intelligent. Some people COULD understand how to play chess if they bothered to learn it, but they’re not interested in learning it. I don’t think there’s a shred of evidence that all intelligent people are naturally interested in certain subjects.
Is someone who can solve complicated math problems and compose symphonies and paint portraits buy has no interest in politics stupid?
Or does stupid just mean "I don't like him," as in the use of "stupid" in the schoolyard: "I hate you; you're stupid!"
posted by grumblebee at 2:12 PM on June 27, 2004
Do most of you use these words as synonyms? If so, why use both? Or is "ignorant and stupid" a phrase like ("sick and tired") that means “un-informed”?
Because I'm uninformed. I don't read the front page of the New York Times (because I don't like to). But I'm not stupid. By "I'm not stupid," I mean I have an above-average ability to combine multiple known facts or ideas into new concepts. I can figure out hard puzzles. I can and do learn all sorts of new things easily.
The claim that Americans are more ignorant (of a particular subject) than people in other countries is a interesting (and perhaps valid) claim to make (though I've never seen much besides anecdotal evidence to back it up).
The claim that Americans are stupider (as in they have a lower IQ) than people in other countries is an extraordinary claim, and I've never seen any extraordinary evidence to back it up. Perhaps it's just a prejudice.
As someone who doesn't like politics, I've noticed that many people use one's understanding of complex political facts as a measure of intelligence. But this measure assumes that everyone is interested in politics to begin with. Which isn't the case. Likewise, it would be odd to assume that only people who understand how to play chess are intelligent. Some people COULD understand how to play chess if they bothered to learn it, but they’re not interested in learning it. I don’t think there’s a shred of evidence that all intelligent people are naturally interested in certain subjects.
Is someone who can solve complicated math problems and compose symphonies and paint portraits buy has no interest in politics stupid?
Or does stupid just mean "I don't like him," as in the use of "stupid" in the schoolyard: "I hate you; you're stupid!"
posted by grumblebee at 2:12 PM on June 27, 2004
But this measure assumes that everyone is interested in politics to begin with. Which isn't the case.
I'm going to be flammed for this, but...
everyone should care about politics. Because you make politics too, not just politicians. This is the basis of every (democratic or sometimes not) societies worldwide. We the people are politics, living under a social contract. Not the politicians. That's the way it should be anyway.
posted by Sijeka at 2:16 PM on June 27, 2004
I'm going to be flammed for this, but...
everyone should care about politics. Because you make politics too, not just politicians. This is the basis of every (democratic or sometimes not) societies worldwide. We the people are politics, living under a social contract. Not the politicians. That's the way it should be anyway.
posted by Sijeka at 2:16 PM on June 27, 2004
.
posted by thatweirdguy2 at 2:18 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by thatweirdguy2 at 2:18 PM on June 27, 2004
Maybe everyone should take part in politics, but everyone shouldn't be interested in politics. I'm not even sure that makes sense. People are interested in what they are interested in. Taking part in something doesn't necessarily make you interested in it. That's a lesson I learned in school. I had to take part in it for years, but I never got interested in it.
Also, I agree that -- in general -- politics doesn't work if too many people opt out. But perhaps it's okay for isolated people to opt out now and again. If we found out that some great writer or composer who added much to our culture happened to opt out of politics, I think most of us would forgive him.
A culture needs all sorts of people who contribute in all sorts of ways -- some politically, some in other ways.
posted by grumblebee at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2004
Also, I agree that -- in general -- politics doesn't work if too many people opt out. But perhaps it's okay for isolated people to opt out now and again. If we found out that some great writer or composer who added much to our culture happened to opt out of politics, I think most of us would forgive him.
A culture needs all sorts of people who contribute in all sorts of ways -- some politically, some in other ways.
posted by grumblebee at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2004
A culture needs all sorts of people who contribute in all sorts of ways -- some politically, some in other ways.
But but a democracy needs you. It's going to sound bad again, but maybe we should force people to be interested/to know what's happening when it comes to politics.
This can be done with education I think. Not to say people who aren't interested aren't into politics. Just to say maybe they don't realise how important, vital it is.
posted by Sijeka at 2:28 PM on June 27, 2004
Top 10 reasons not to like Sonserae:
10.> She makes statements with no attribution.
9.> Her smile.
8.> She's on the leadership committee for Media Fellowship International, a Christian advocacy group that courts politicians and tries to impose their beliefs upon Hollywood.
7.> She's a Freeper.
6.> She made a post to trash Moore there.
5.> ...and left most of the comments, too.
4.> ... In which she used the word "bloviated" and the phrase "Moore hates everybody".
3.> She's a supposed Christian, who has no problem calling Moore a "BIG, FAT P.O.S." and a "whore".
2.> She's got a wooden leg, with a kickstand.
And the #1 reason to dislike Sonserae...!
1.> She helped to bring us Gigli.
posted by insomnia_lj at 2:30 PM on June 27, 2004
10.> She makes statements with no attribution.
9.> Her smile.
8.> She's on the leadership committee for Media Fellowship International, a Christian advocacy group that courts politicians and tries to impose their beliefs upon Hollywood.
7.> She's a Freeper.
6.> She made a post to trash Moore there.
5.> ...and left most of the comments, too.
4.> ... In which she used the word "bloviated" and the phrase "Moore hates everybody".
3.> She's a supposed Christian, who has no problem calling Moore a "BIG, FAT P.O.S." and a "whore".
2.> She's got a wooden leg, with a kickstand.
And the #1 reason to dislike Sonserae...!
1.> She helped to bring us Gigli.
posted by insomnia_lj at 2:30 PM on June 27, 2004
Holy Crap this post is blossoming.
I agree we don't need two FPPs about Moore.
I don't think that the links support swerdloff's interpretation.
I find it highly amusing that Moore is galvanizing so many people into love him or hate him groups.
I don't think many people will be discussing this movie when Spiderman 2 comes out.
posted by Busithoth at 2:45 PM on June 27, 2004
I agree we don't need two FPPs about Moore.
I don't think that the links support swerdloff's interpretation.
I find it highly amusing that Moore is galvanizing so many people into love him or hate him groups.
I don't think many people will be discussing this movie when Spiderman 2 comes out.
posted by Busithoth at 2:45 PM on June 27, 2004
1.> She helped to bring us Gigli.
She did?
Aw, that does it. I'm getting my torch.
One day, we'll be able to talk about all this stuff rationally, with the appropriate facts on hand and no one getting all visceral about the one they hate.
That day, I suspect, will only come when there are but seven of us left on a desert island. No Moore discussion, even here on The Allegedly Uniformly Liberal Metafilter, can be had without wading through rivers of sewage.
I get the feeling the conservative element in this country is up in Moore's grill so vociferiously (look it up) not necessarily because he's got a point, but because he's taking populism away from them as a promotional tool.
"You're stupid if you believe Saddam and Osama are in bed together. You're stupid if you believe the Saudis and Bush aren't tighter than the Olsen twins. But... you're not that stupid, are you, America? Here's some facts you might have missed. It ain't the whole story, but you can take this to the bar and argue your dittohead friends on their own terms for once. Make them actually back up their arguments, and let the discourse begin."
The right wing no longer has a monopoly on populism and "Truth." Of course they're gonna get angry. Both sides should be prepared for a dirty fight that's going to last deep into the next four years, regardless of what happens in November.
posted by chicobangs at 2:51 PM on June 27, 2004
She did?
Aw, that does it. I'm getting my torch.
One day, we'll be able to talk about all this stuff rationally, with the appropriate facts on hand and no one getting all visceral about the one they hate.
That day, I suspect, will only come when there are but seven of us left on a desert island. No Moore discussion, even here on The Allegedly Uniformly Liberal Metafilter, can be had without wading through rivers of sewage.
I get the feeling the conservative element in this country is up in Moore's grill so vociferiously (look it up) not necessarily because he's got a point, but because he's taking populism away from them as a promotional tool.
"You're stupid if you believe Saddam and Osama are in bed together. You're stupid if you believe the Saudis and Bush aren't tighter than the Olsen twins. But... you're not that stupid, are you, America? Here's some facts you might have missed. It ain't the whole story, but you can take this to the bar and argue your dittohead friends on their own terms for once. Make them actually back up their arguments, and let the discourse begin."
The right wing no longer has a monopoly on populism and "Truth." Of course they're gonna get angry. Both sides should be prepared for a dirty fight that's going to last deep into the next four years, regardless of what happens in November.
posted by chicobangs at 2:51 PM on June 27, 2004
Metafilter: Frustrated with the apparent ignorance that seems to pervade the US
posted by rushmc at 2:55 PM on June 27, 2004
posted by rushmc at 2:55 PM on June 27, 2004
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Sorry, but seeing it misspelled so often is starting to drive me nuts.
posted by reklaw at 11:31 AM on June 27, 2004