The Ecstasy
July 5, 2004 10:40 AM Subscribe
Y'know, I have no real problem with people using their clothing to express whatever they want, but on what planet do skin-tight, body-hugging Britney-wear with Christian slogans like the ones at this site not send out massively mixed singles.
I am sooo glad I'm not an adolescent or post-adolescent male anymore, it's just too fucking confusing these days. I'm not even very religious but if I was 14, I think I'd take a chastity pledge just to avoid the aggravation and confusion of today's sexual arena.
posted by jonmc at 10:51 AM on July 5, 2004
I am sooo glad I'm not an adolescent or post-adolescent male anymore, it's just too fucking confusing these days. I'm not even very religious but if I was 14, I think I'd take a chastity pledge just to avoid the aggravation and confusion of today's sexual arena.
posted by jonmc at 10:51 AM on July 5, 2004
Paul notwithstanding (which I know is really silly of me, but in my fantasy Christianity half of what Paul wrote that we have would have been destroyed in a tragic fire), I don't agree that Christianity is inherently anti-sexual in the sense that sexy clothes, even for teens, is inherently a "mixed message". Fornication and adultery can be wrong without sex and sexiness being wrong.
This post's sneering tone completely seems to miss the point that there's a radical wave of youth Christianity that is non-traditional in many ways ("Religion is dead, Jesus is not"), and very much not in the spirit of the old-time fundamentalist crowd. I know these people. My sister and her husband are some of them. On some issues they have values that are in conflict with traditional leftist values (abortion), but on many they are in agreement.
But you'd have to know something about these folks, their culture, and their beliefs to understand that.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:01 AM on July 5, 2004
This post's sneering tone completely seems to miss the point that there's a radical wave of youth Christianity that is non-traditional in many ways ("Religion is dead, Jesus is not"), and very much not in the spirit of the old-time fundamentalist crowd. I know these people. My sister and her husband are some of them. On some issues they have values that are in conflict with traditional leftist values (abortion), but on many they are in agreement.
But you'd have to know something about these folks, their culture, and their beliefs to understand that.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:01 AM on July 5, 2004
This takes the prize for the weirdest mixed message. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, that the verb "loves" doesn't mean what I'm thinking it might mean. It reminds me of those old "everybody loves catholic girls" shirts from ten years ago.
posted by mathowie at 11:05 AM on July 5, 2004
posted by mathowie at 11:05 AM on July 5, 2004
Okay, where's the "Jesus Saved My Vagina"?
Here (NSFW).
posted by homunculus at 11:07 AM on July 5, 2004
Here (NSFW).
posted by homunculus at 11:07 AM on July 5, 2004
I just picture some gay guy walking out with a "I love Christian Boys" t-shirt...
posted by silusGROK at 11:18 AM on July 5, 2004
posted by silusGROK at 11:18 AM on July 5, 2004
Ethereal Bligh: I agree in principle that one should not make fun of those whom one doesn't understand. But I don't get the supposed "sneering tone" that you perceive in this post. Regardless, I would hope we could agree that t-shirts reading "Do the Jew" are both tasteless and offensive.
jonmc: You pretty much just described me 15 years ago. Take the pledge, stay away from the Britney wannabes until you figure out what the hell you really want in a sex partner. Then, burn the pledge.
posted by ChrisTN at 11:32 AM on July 5, 2004
jonmc: You pretty much just described me 15 years ago. Take the pledge, stay away from the Britney wannabes until you figure out what the hell you really want in a sex partner. Then, burn the pledge.
posted by ChrisTN at 11:32 AM on July 5, 2004
jonmc: You pretty much just described me 15 years ago
Actually, I'm 33 and happily common-law-married, chrisTN, just shaking my head in sympathy for the pimply burnout misfits of today is all.
posted by jonmc at 11:39 AM on July 5, 2004
Actually, I'm 33 and happily common-law-married, chrisTN, just shaking my head in sympathy for the pimply burnout misfits of today is all.
posted by jonmc at 11:39 AM on July 5, 2004
it's just too fucking confusing these days.
I think the message is the same as it has always been: "I do, but not with you."
posted by SPrintF at 11:45 AM on July 5, 2004
I think the message is the same as it has always been: "I do, but not with you."
posted by SPrintF at 11:45 AM on July 5, 2004
Actually, I'm 33 and happily common-law-married, chrisTN, just shaking my head in sympathy for the pimply burnout misfits of today is all.
Right...I guess I'm just owning up to the fact that, 15 years ago, in my own teenaged hell, I was one of these pimply burnout misfits. Sure, things have gotten somewhat more complicated in the intervening years (metrosexuals? wha???), but I still found ways to get pretty angst-y about it all back then. So I just crawled in my own metaphorical cave and stayed there until I knew what I wanted.
posted by ChrisTN at 11:46 AM on July 5, 2004
Right...I guess I'm just owning up to the fact that, 15 years ago, in my own teenaged hell, I was one of these pimply burnout misfits. Sure, things have gotten somewhat more complicated in the intervening years (metrosexuals? wha???), but I still found ways to get pretty angst-y about it all back then. So I just crawled in my own metaphorical cave and stayed there until I knew what I wanted.
posted by ChrisTN at 11:46 AM on July 5, 2004
Do the Jew
Ah. I didn't see that one. You're right. But the "sneering tone" was in the "Jesus Saved My Vagina", I think. That was unnecessary.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:53 AM on July 5, 2004
Ah. I didn't see that one. You're right. But the "sneering tone" was in the "Jesus Saved My Vagina", I think. That was unnecessary.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:53 AM on July 5, 2004
I think the message is the same as it has always been: "I do, but not with you."
Exactly. Chicks, man, can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em.
They're just too difficult to understand and always will be. They should just give us an instruction sheet on how to act and save everyone a lot of aggravation.
Right...I guess I'm just owning up to the fact that, 15 years ago, in my own teenaged hell, I was one of these pimply burnout misfits.
Wanna go in the woods and smoke smoke squeef and drink Peachtree?
posted by jonmc at 11:59 AM on July 5, 2004
Exactly. Chicks, man, can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em.
They're just too difficult to understand and always will be. They should just give us an instruction sheet on how to act and save everyone a lot of aggravation.
Right...I guess I'm just owning up to the fact that, 15 years ago, in my own teenaged hell, I was one of these pimply burnout misfits.
Wanna go in the woods and smoke smoke squeef and drink Peachtree?
posted by jonmc at 11:59 AM on July 5, 2004
Ah. I didn't see that one. You're right. But the "sneering tone" was in the "Jesus Saved My Vagina", I think. That was unnecessary.
I thought Christians were supposed to take joy in their persecutions, because it means you have rewards waiting in heaven?
BTW, I "know" these people too. I used to be one of them.
posted by danny the boy at 12:07 PM on July 5, 2004
I thought Christians were supposed to take joy in their persecutions, because it means you have rewards waiting in heaven?
BTW, I "know" these people too. I used to be one of them.
posted by danny the boy at 12:07 PM on July 5, 2004
A Christian, or a member of one of these new Chritisan youth subcultures that were written about in the NYT?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:15 PM on July 5, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:15 PM on July 5, 2004
I would hope we could agree that t-shirts reading "Do the Jew" are both tasteless and offensive.
Then again, some people have a whole different idea of what's fun to wear on a t-shirt.
posted by Stoatfarm at 12:17 PM on July 5, 2004
Then again, some people have a whole different idea of what's fun to wear on a t-shirt.
posted by Stoatfarm at 12:17 PM on July 5, 2004
At this year's festival, which drew 50,000 people over four days, at $73 for a four-day ticket
So $3,650,000 were collected in gate fees. How much of that do you think actually went to Jesus? And will He be allowed in the organizer's new Porsche? It's pretty funny that Christians have gone from throwing the moneylenders out of the temple to charging regular folk to get in it.
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:37 PM on July 5, 2004
So $3,650,000 were collected in gate fees. How much of that do you think actually went to Jesus? And will He be allowed in the organizer's new Porsche? It's pretty funny that Christians have gone from throwing the moneylenders out of the temple to charging regular folk to get in it.
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:37 PM on July 5, 2004
"...a DVD player that skips over racy material in movies."
People can do what they want in their own homes I guess, but this really gets to me. I'm guessing that the only people who are potentially going to be purchasing these are the same people who are probably fast forwarding these scenes manually, but still, it just seems wrong.
I wonder what constitutes racy material.
posted by fizz-ed at 12:40 PM on July 5, 2004
People can do what they want in their own homes I guess, but this really gets to me. I'm guessing that the only people who are potentially going to be purchasing these are the same people who are probably fast forwarding these scenes manually, but still, it just seems wrong.
I wonder what constitutes racy material.
posted by fizz-ed at 12:40 PM on July 5, 2004
"Religion is dead, Jesus is not"
As doublespeak goes, this is right up there with "this isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a "distributed marketing venture".
Seriously, christianism is a religion, get over it.
posted by signal at 12:41 PM on July 5, 2004
As doublespeak goes, this is right up there with "this isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a "distributed marketing venture".
Seriously, christianism is a religion, get over it.
posted by signal at 12:41 PM on July 5, 2004
When I first was introduced to IRC, I'd amuse myself by going into random rooms and screaming "SATAN IS IN MY PUSSY!"
Nice to see he's not the only one.
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:43 PM on July 5, 2004
Nice to see he's not the only one.
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:43 PM on July 5, 2004
A Christian, or a member of one of these new Chritisan youth subcultures that were written about in the NYT?
These "new" youth subcultures aren't really new. I'm 24. When I was in high school, I was involved in, and ultimately became one of the leaders of the school Christian club.
There's a lot I could say about my experience, but the summary is, I regret almost all of it. There's an episode of King of the Hill where Bobby gets caught up in the punk-rock skateboarding X-treme Christian movement, which is pretty much right on.
posted by danny the boy at 1:22 PM on July 5, 2004
These "new" youth subcultures aren't really new. I'm 24. When I was in high school, I was involved in, and ultimately became one of the leaders of the school Christian club.
There's a lot I could say about my experience, but the summary is, I regret almost all of it. There's an episode of King of the Hill where Bobby gets caught up in the punk-rock skateboarding X-treme Christian movement, which is pretty much right on.
posted by danny the boy at 1:22 PM on July 5, 2004
Most of this stuff seems pretty cool.
yeah, get fucking down on it pops
posted by dydecker at 1:24 PM on July 5, 2004
yeah, get fucking down on it pops
posted by dydecker at 1:24 PM on July 5, 2004
Christianity has had a pretty good run, I wish it would go away quietly now instead of trying to infect another generation with its madness.
posted by Grod at 1:38 PM on July 5, 2004
posted by Grod at 1:38 PM on July 5, 2004
Well, I feel that way about all religious beliefs. Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Paganism (haha), Hinduism, and all the others. I wish they'd all just go away and stop infecting new, vulnerable minds with their polluting nonsense. And I think that all the believers are silly and should be made fun of at every opportunity.1
1 Okay, actually I don't actually hold the second opinion; which is the point I'm trying to make. But the first...I do. I think pretty much all religious beliefs are hugely stupid.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:50 PM on July 5, 2004
1 Okay, actually I don't actually hold the second opinion; which is the point I'm trying to make. But the first...I do. I think pretty much all religious beliefs are hugely stupid.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:50 PM on July 5, 2004
Probly a double post, but appropriate anyway.
My question about christian punks is what the hell do they have to be mad about? Punks are supposed to be mad.
Years ago, when I fronted a punk band, the christian bands would make me furious preaching on stage at the shows. That said, those kids who called themselves "punks for god" (from here: "In prison slang, punk retains its urban street culture meaning and refers to a male who is treated as a sexual submissive") made tons more money than the godless punks. There was a whole infrastructure of churches and youth groups that would pay them ridiculous amounts to come and play shows. If someone (not me) can stomach the environment they can make a good money on those kids.
posted by tcobretti at 2:15 PM on July 5, 2004
My question about christian punks is what the hell do they have to be mad about? Punks are supposed to be mad.
Years ago, when I fronted a punk band, the christian bands would make me furious preaching on stage at the shows. That said, those kids who called themselves "punks for god" (from here: "In prison slang, punk retains its urban street culture meaning and refers to a male who is treated as a sexual submissive") made tons more money than the godless punks. There was a whole infrastructure of churches and youth groups that would pay them ridiculous amounts to come and play shows. If someone (not me) can stomach the environment they can make a good money on those kids.
posted by tcobretti at 2:15 PM on July 5, 2004
I'm always amused at how everything is endlessly coopted by everything else. Its a good way to make some money, though.
Is it supposed to be rebelious to be religous? How about mindlessly religous? I'm not sure how suspension of critical thought is rebellious.
On the other hand, we can say "its just a t-shirt".
And thank the lord that Creed broke up.
posted by 4midori at 3:33 PM on July 5, 2004
Is it supposed to be rebelious to be religous? How about mindlessly religous? I'm not sure how suspension of critical thought is rebellious.
On the other hand, we can say "its just a t-shirt".
And thank the lord that Creed broke up.
posted by 4midori at 3:33 PM on July 5, 2004
I'm with tcobretti. Seriously, what is the purpose of a christian punk?
posted by Stynxno at 4:58 PM on July 5, 2004
posted by Stynxno at 4:58 PM on July 5, 2004
"Y'know, I have no real problem with people using their clothing to express whatever they want, but on what planet do skin-tight, body-hugging Britney-wear with Christian slogans like the ones at this site not send out massively mixed singles."..jonmc
Umm, er, yeah, cool. Massively mixed singles could be lots of fun.
posted by tonebarge at 5:07 PM on July 5, 2004
Umm, er, yeah, cool. Massively mixed singles could be lots of fun.
posted by tonebarge at 5:07 PM on July 5, 2004
But the "sneering tone" was in the "Jesus Saved My Vagina", I think. That was unnecessary.
come on, the site is asking for it. It's specifically marketed to girls ("Christian tees for girls!") and specifically marketed to be cute and sexy ("I love christian boys!"). What does any of this have to do with christianity? Nothing at all.
I'm not a christian, but if I were, I can only imagine I would be more "sneering" about this. (One could be a Spinozist without endorsing "I heart Benedict" titty tees.) This kind of enterprise does not give anyone any insight into deeper religious or metaphysical questions; it is purely another way to form cliques and include/exclude peers through group bonding - it's meaningless, petty, and in many ways antithetical to spiritual or philosophical growth.
posted by mdn at 5:09 PM on July 5, 2004
come on, the site is asking for it. It's specifically marketed to girls ("Christian tees for girls!") and specifically marketed to be cute and sexy ("I love christian boys!"). What does any of this have to do with christianity? Nothing at all.
I'm not a christian, but if I were, I can only imagine I would be more "sneering" about this. (One could be a Spinozist without endorsing "I heart Benedict" titty tees.) This kind of enterprise does not give anyone any insight into deeper religious or metaphysical questions; it is purely another way to form cliques and include/exclude peers through group bonding - it's meaningless, petty, and in many ways antithetical to spiritual or philosophical growth.
posted by mdn at 5:09 PM on July 5, 2004
What would a girls' tee-shirt that declares "I Love Science Nerds!" have to do with science? Would you feel the need to ridicule it? This is a subculture that is, generally, undeniably uncool. A lot of this stuff is a perfectly normal and legitimate attempt to assert pride in and the acceptability of this subculture.
Yeah, the context matters. In, for example, Amarillo, such shirts are smarmy and irritating because it's the majority culture. And I understand that many people here are responding to this from within that context. I sympathize. I'm an atheist from that part of the US. Whatever I say about my sister, she's the exception and I have aquired as much of a natural antipathy to bible-thumpers as anyone.
But I think that danny-boy is wrong to characterize all alternative youth Christianity as similar to that parodied on "King of the Hill"—a context that was also Texas and conservative Christian-centric. There's lots and lots of youth Christian activism in places where it hasn't existed before, and that espouses positions and perspectives that would astonish and dismay most of these smug traditional conservative Christians from (mostly) the South. There's been several NYT articles on them.
Also, there's a continuum. All in all, I think it's very unfair to knee-jerk characterize all Christianity through the prism of these stereotypes. And it's only in the context of these stereotypes that a "sneering tone" is justified or inevitable.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:26 PM on July 5, 2004
Yeah, the context matters. In, for example, Amarillo, such shirts are smarmy and irritating because it's the majority culture. And I understand that many people here are responding to this from within that context. I sympathize. I'm an atheist from that part of the US. Whatever I say about my sister, she's the exception and I have aquired as much of a natural antipathy to bible-thumpers as anyone.
But I think that danny-boy is wrong to characterize all alternative youth Christianity as similar to that parodied on "King of the Hill"—a context that was also Texas and conservative Christian-centric. There's lots and lots of youth Christian activism in places where it hasn't existed before, and that espouses positions and perspectives that would astonish and dismay most of these smug traditional conservative Christians from (mostly) the South. There's been several NYT articles on them.
Also, there's a continuum. All in all, I think it's very unfair to knee-jerk characterize all Christianity through the prism of these stereotypes. And it's only in the context of these stereotypes that a "sneering tone" is justified or inevitable.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:26 PM on July 5, 2004
it is purely another way to form cliques and include/exclude peers through group bonding
Well, let me play devil's advocate and ask dosen't just about any t-shirt with a logo do that? When I wear my Metallica shirt, I'm declaring myself a member of their army of fans. Same if it's a Green Bay Packers jersey. Or the PETA logo. Or Nader for president.
People like to wear their affiliations on their chests.
And I suppose the "I like Christian Boys" shirt is good in a way. In today's hyper-sexualized teen world a Christian kid would feel somewhat out of place and lost, and it'd remind that he's cool to someone. That's a good thing, right?
posted by jonmc at 6:07 PM on July 5, 2004
Well, let me play devil's advocate and ask dosen't just about any t-shirt with a logo do that? When I wear my Metallica shirt, I'm declaring myself a member of their army of fans. Same if it's a Green Bay Packers jersey. Or the PETA logo. Or Nader for president.
People like to wear their affiliations on their chests.
And I suppose the "I like Christian Boys" shirt is good in a way. In today's hyper-sexualized teen world a Christian kid would feel somewhat out of place and lost, and it'd remind that he's cool to someone. That's a good thing, right?
posted by jonmc at 6:07 PM on July 5, 2004
Bobby gets caught up in the punk-rock skateboarding X-treme Christian movement, which is pretty much right on.
I haven't seen that episode, but right now as I type this they are having a huge skateboarding/music thingee at my church-with Steven Baldwin (yup, Alex's brother) there as well. It's yoooge....the local skateboard store/park owner is a Christian and has been one for years.... it's an interesting subculture.
I personally am unsure how I feel about some of this stuff. The late Keith Green had plenty to say about what he termed "Jesus junk."
Seriously, christianism is a religion, get over it.
Well, from a secular standpoint, perhaps. But real Christianity has to do with one's relationship with a real Person, not a set of rules per se. What I term Churchianity has turned quite a lot of people off on investigating Jesus, who He is, what He did, etc. I would have become a Christian years earlier than I did if I had found people who were real about it then instead of people just going about their little religious ritual like a hamster wheel.
The question is, where do you draw the line between faddish group identity and a true born-again experience? Somehow I can't see members of the persecuted underground church in China wearing or wanting to wear much of that stuff. But then again that might just be the old fogey in me trying to pop out.
The Bible is right; man looks on the outside while God looks on the heart. And it's what's in the heart that matters to God.
posted by konolia at 6:22 PM on July 5, 2004
I haven't seen that episode, but right now as I type this they are having a huge skateboarding/music thingee at my church-with Steven Baldwin (yup, Alex's brother) there as well. It's yoooge....the local skateboard store/park owner is a Christian and has been one for years.... it's an interesting subculture.
I personally am unsure how I feel about some of this stuff. The late Keith Green had plenty to say about what he termed "Jesus junk."
Seriously, christianism is a religion, get over it.
Well, from a secular standpoint, perhaps. But real Christianity has to do with one's relationship with a real Person, not a set of rules per se. What I term Churchianity has turned quite a lot of people off on investigating Jesus, who He is, what He did, etc. I would have become a Christian years earlier than I did if I had found people who were real about it then instead of people just going about their little religious ritual like a hamster wheel.
The question is, where do you draw the line between faddish group identity and a true born-again experience? Somehow I can't see members of the persecuted underground church in China wearing or wanting to wear much of that stuff. But then again that might just be the old fogey in me trying to pop out.
The Bible is right; man looks on the outside while God looks on the heart. And it's what's in the heart that matters to God.
posted by konolia at 6:22 PM on July 5, 2004
This post's sneering tone completely seems to miss the point that there's a radical wave of youth Christianity that is non-traditional in many ways ("Religion is dead, Jesus is not")
Sounds a lot like the Jesus Movement of the early '70s. That was probably a lot more radical than anything happening today. These things come in waves.
posted by deadcowdan at 6:22 PM on July 5, 2004
Sounds a lot like the Jesus Movement of the early '70s. That was probably a lot more radical than anything happening today. These things come in waves.
posted by deadcowdan at 6:22 PM on July 5, 2004
Wanna go in the woods and smoke smoke squeef and drink Peachtree?
I'm already there, dude...waiting for the rest of the party to show up. I just learned how to make a killer bong out of a coconut and some bamboo, but that shit doesnt grow around here so I took apart my moms furniture.
What would a girls' tee-shirt that declares "I Love Science Nerds!" have to do with science?
Hope for science nerds.
Would you feel the need to ridicule it?
Yes. Without question.
Christianity as similar to that parodied on "King of the Hill"—a context that was also Texas and conservative Christian-centric.
Uh, nope they got that kind of stuff everywhere. Christian youth groups always try to make themselves seem cool and activity oriented, in order to sell themselves to the youth. This is not a new movement, and many religious groups predicate themselves on grouping together based on belief so that new people can be accepted unquestioningly and reinforce beliefs that may not be completely solid.
Look, I understand where you are coming from, but I think in some of these responses you are looking for a sneering tone for an opportunity to take the high road. Im not religious, I dont think Jesus even existed, but I think there are very serious philisophical and spiritual questions out there. I was raised with a christian father and have some friends who have become pretty conservative christians over the years. To each their own, sure, but these are very mixed messages. They imitate youth culture, but carry a subverted message for a religion that when taken literally has some pretty primitive beliefs.
You did read these articles before you took offense, right EB?
"It's kind of a business-slash-ministry," said Mr. Lula, 36, who lives in Los Angeles when he is not on the road. In a summer, he said, he can sell 3,000 shirts.
Uh-huh.
-----
In "Blab," a letters-to-the-editor-type entry in Revolve, girls are told that to love another woman is a sin and that they must not ask a crush out, that is a boy's role. Girls of Grace urges girls to listen to their parents and remember the importance of family and their roles in it.
Uh-huh.
Yep, teenage girls wearing skin-tight titty shirts with a head full of that is about as confusing as can be.
And hell, I ridicule everything else, why not this?
posted by lkc at 6:30 PM on July 5, 2004
I'm already there, dude...waiting for the rest of the party to show up. I just learned how to make a killer bong out of a coconut and some bamboo, but that shit doesnt grow around here so I took apart my moms furniture.
What would a girls' tee-shirt that declares "I Love Science Nerds!" have to do with science?
Hope for science nerds.
Would you feel the need to ridicule it?
Yes. Without question.
Christianity as similar to that parodied on "King of the Hill"—a context that was also Texas and conservative Christian-centric.
Uh, nope they got that kind of stuff everywhere. Christian youth groups always try to make themselves seem cool and activity oriented, in order to sell themselves to the youth. This is not a new movement, and many religious groups predicate themselves on grouping together based on belief so that new people can be accepted unquestioningly and reinforce beliefs that may not be completely solid.
Look, I understand where you are coming from, but I think in some of these responses you are looking for a sneering tone for an opportunity to take the high road. Im not religious, I dont think Jesus even existed, but I think there are very serious philisophical and spiritual questions out there. I was raised with a christian father and have some friends who have become pretty conservative christians over the years. To each their own, sure, but these are very mixed messages. They imitate youth culture, but carry a subverted message for a religion that when taken literally has some pretty primitive beliefs.
You did read these articles before you took offense, right EB?
"It's kind of a business-slash-ministry," said Mr. Lula, 36, who lives in Los Angeles when he is not on the road. In a summer, he said, he can sell 3,000 shirts.
Uh-huh.
-----
In "Blab," a letters-to-the-editor-type entry in Revolve, girls are told that to love another woman is a sin and that they must not ask a crush out, that is a boy's role. Girls of Grace urges girls to listen to their parents and remember the importance of family and their roles in it.
Uh-huh.
Yep, teenage girls wearing skin-tight titty shirts with a head full of that is about as confusing as can be.
And hell, I ridicule everything else, why not this?
posted by lkc at 6:30 PM on July 5, 2004
also, konolia, I'm only in here killing time until Guns & Roses: Behind The Music comes on at 9. So I may not still be considered doomed by most conregations.
posted by jonmc at 6:33 PM on July 5, 2004
posted by jonmc at 6:33 PM on July 5, 2004
On second thought, I would probably buy and wear a T-shirt that says "I love science nerds."
...aw, I missed it, should have previewed twice. Konolia, you are dead on. What you believe is your choice, but you should believe it, not follow the cool kids. If there is an inherent spiritual truth to it, than it should not be necessary to recruit people by going after their social insecurities and/or hormone fluctuations.
johnmc: I think there is still a space for you at the first church of "rock out with your cock out".
(pardon my french).
posted by lkc at 6:35 PM on July 5, 2004
...aw, I missed it, should have previewed twice. Konolia, you are dead on. What you believe is your choice, but you should believe it, not follow the cool kids. If there is an inherent spiritual truth to it, than it should not be necessary to recruit people by going after their social insecurities and/or hormone fluctuations.
johnmc: I think there is still a space for you at the first church of "rock out with your cock out".
(pardon my french).
posted by lkc at 6:35 PM on July 5, 2004
as I type this they are having a huge skateboarding/music thingee at my church-with Steven Baldwin
Wasn't he the Baldwin brother that was found coked-up in a hotel, bleeding from his ass? Or was that Daniel? Even if it was Daniel, anyone associated with "Slap Shot 2" is a philistine who probably sacrifices to Baal or something.
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:55 PM on July 5, 2004
Wasn't he the Baldwin brother that was found coked-up in a hotel, bleeding from his ass? Or was that Daniel? Even if it was Daniel, anyone associated with "Slap Shot 2" is a philistine who probably sacrifices to Baal or something.
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:55 PM on July 5, 2004
If there is an inherent spiritual truth to it, than it should not be necessary to recruit people by going after their social insecurities and/or hormone fluctuations.
True. But the flip side of that is that kids with pink hair or skateboards or whatever it is they are up to these days need to be made welcome in our congregations just as they are, and they need to be able to be themselves. (We have that in my congregation, and I like it. )
I understand going to a subgroup and wanting to communicate to them in a way that is fitting to them. Which is what I think is going on at my church with the skateboarding demo thing. Different strokes and all that.
But trying to make Jesus "cool"....well, I think He is plenty cool just the way He is.
posted by konolia at 6:59 PM on July 5, 2004
True. But the flip side of that is that kids with pink hair or skateboards or whatever it is they are up to these days need to be made welcome in our congregations just as they are, and they need to be able to be themselves. (We have that in my congregation, and I like it. )
I understand going to a subgroup and wanting to communicate to them in a way that is fitting to them. Which is what I think is going on at my church with the skateboarding demo thing. Different strokes and all that.
But trying to make Jesus "cool"....well, I think He is plenty cool just the way He is.
posted by konolia at 6:59 PM on July 5, 2004
WolfDaddy: When I first was introduced to IRC, I'd amuse myself by going into random rooms and screaming "SATAN IS IN MY PUSSY!"
Mind if I take a look?
tcobretti: My question about christian punks is what the hell do they have to be mad about? Punks are supposed to be mad.
Well, there's the rub. There is a certain mindset among some evangelical Christians that takes any slight or opposition in the culture at large and turns it into a huge martyr complex. Think: "Help, help, I'm being oppressed!" This isn't reserved for this brand of Christianity; that's just where I see it the most in my current context. So, I'd guess that may be one reason for the punk reaction. Maybe.
lkc: I think there is still a space for you at the first church of "rock out with your cock out".
Do you have an address for this church?
posted by ChrisTN at 7:09 PM on July 5, 2004
Mind if I take a look?
tcobretti: My question about christian punks is what the hell do they have to be mad about? Punks are supposed to be mad.
Well, there's the rub. There is a certain mindset among some evangelical Christians that takes any slight or opposition in the culture at large and turns it into a huge martyr complex. Think: "Help, help, I'm being oppressed!" This isn't reserved for this brand of Christianity; that's just where I see it the most in my current context. So, I'd guess that may be one reason for the punk reaction. Maybe.
lkc: I think there is still a space for you at the first church of "rock out with your cock out".
Do you have an address for this church?
posted by ChrisTN at 7:09 PM on July 5, 2004
Some interesting assumptions at work. "Christian" clearly equates with "Fundamentalist" and/or "Evangelical" and pretty much excludes anything else--Catholic, Greek, Coptic, Gnostic, and in some measure moderate Methodist, Lutheran, et.al. ...
When did that happen?
Further, I think these stories are evidence of a growing "ghetto mentality" among Evangelicals in general--the growing trend to shop only at properly identified "Christian" (read: similarly Evangelical) stores, do business with similarly self-identified "Christians," and socialize only with like-minded "Christians," etc.
Where does such great fear of the general culture come from? I can't find it in what are generally recognized as Christ's teachings. However, it makes it obvious to me why these same people find it so easy to hate anyone who disagrees with them--such disagreement is completely outside their experience.
It must be jarring to have differences in opinion insert themselves into such carefully constructed isolation chambers.
posted by Cerebus at 7:54 PM on July 5, 2004
When did that happen?
Further, I think these stories are evidence of a growing "ghetto mentality" among Evangelicals in general--the growing trend to shop only at properly identified "Christian" (read: similarly Evangelical) stores, do business with similarly self-identified "Christians," and socialize only with like-minded "Christians," etc.
Where does such great fear of the general culture come from? I can't find it in what are generally recognized as Christ's teachings. However, it makes it obvious to me why these same people find it so easy to hate anyone who disagrees with them--such disagreement is completely outside their experience.
It must be jarring to have differences in opinion insert themselves into such carefully constructed isolation chambers.
posted by Cerebus at 7:54 PM on July 5, 2004
tweaking the slogan to read, 'Do the Jew,' meaning to emulate Jesus.
If you saw someone wearing a shirt that said "Do the Jew," is that really the message you'd get from it?
first church of "rock out with your cock out"
Must get messy around communion time...
posted by nickmark at 8:31 AM on July 6, 2004
If you saw someone wearing a shirt that said "Do the Jew," is that really the message you'd get from it?
first church of "rock out with your cock out"
Must get messy around communion time...
posted by nickmark at 8:31 AM on July 6, 2004
Some interesting assumptions at work. "Christian" clearly equates with "Fundamentalist" and/or "Evangelical"...
Worse, you see that same assumption even with just the world "religion." I don't believe in hell, therefore I don't believe anybody needs to be saved from it, therefore I don't feel the need to spread my own religious beliefs around like a virus... even though I'm a minister.
But if I simply tell folks that I'm religious they're going to immediately make a whole set of assumptions, 95% of which will be wrong and 42% of which will be utterly ridiculous in my world view.
posted by Foosnark at 9:19 AM on July 6, 2004
Worse, you see that same assumption even with just the world "religion." I don't believe in hell, therefore I don't believe anybody needs to be saved from it, therefore I don't feel the need to spread my own religious beliefs around like a virus... even though I'm a minister.
But if I simply tell folks that I'm religious they're going to immediately make a whole set of assumptions, 95% of which will be wrong and 42% of which will be utterly ridiculous in my world view.
posted by Foosnark at 9:19 AM on July 6, 2004
Where does such great fear of the general culture come from? I can't find it in what are generally recognized as Christ's teachings.
well, there's that whole thing about "leave your wives, your children, etc"; christianity definitely did begin as a monkish existence - not until protestantism did belonging to the general culture coincide with being a christian.
posted by mdn at 9:54 AM on July 6, 2004
well, there's that whole thing about "leave your wives, your children, etc"; christianity definitely did begin as a monkish existence - not until protestantism did belonging to the general culture coincide with being a christian.
posted by mdn at 9:54 AM on July 6, 2004
« Older Beeb sites face 'public value test' | 'Bad' Catholics Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:51 AM on July 5, 2004