Well. That didn't take long.
August 6, 2004 9:53 AM   Subscribe

The anti-Kerry book Unfit for Command is #1 on Amazon. Unfortunately, the book, not even released, has entered the downward spiral of diminished credibility of its authors. The "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" have been found to include a man who changed his story right after Kerry entered the race and another who flat-out retracts his accusations. Meanwhile, another SBVfT member has accused Kerry of not really deserving his Bronze Star because the events leading to it never occured... even though the Veteran recieved a Bronze Star for the same day's events he claims now never happened.
posted by XQUZYPHYR (101 comments total)
 
I wonder what Karl Rove is going to do with so many copies of the same book.
posted by destro at 9:58 AM on August 6, 2004


And it must be mentioned what John McCain had to say about the Swift Boat Liars for Bush TV commercial:

Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well. The White House declined.
It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, comparing the anti-Kerry ad to tactics in his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

posted by nofundy at 10:00 AM on August 6, 2004


It does seem as though this thing is going to backfire for Bush.

So are undecided/Kerry voters buying this book? My guess is probably not.
posted by gwint at 10:01 AM on August 6, 2004


Who needs credibility when the mob's gaping maw is salivating for more?

Here's an example from a right wing weblog:
"The ad is powerful, but, in my opinion, not as persuasive as it could be because it is so general. The veterans say that Kerry has lied about his service; the doctor who treated Kerry for the wound that gave rise to his first Purple Heart says Kerry's account is untrue; they say Kerry betrayed his comrades. But there are no details, no facts. Of course, there is only so much you can do in thirty seconds. Despite the lack of detail, the ad is a lot more powerful than anything the Bush campaign has come up with, and I've given the Swift Boat Veterans some money to put it on the air. I hope you will too."
posted by the fire you left me at 10:05 AM on August 6, 2004


McCain should put out an ad criticizing the Swift Boat ads. That would rule.
posted by kenko at 10:07 AM on August 6, 2004


Well now, to be fair, here's another book about a presidential contender, set to be released and available on Amazon.


The Bush Junta: A Field Guide to Corruption in Government

Out in a month
posted by Peter H at 10:08 AM on August 6, 2004


more information (contributors, book description etc),
as well as Steve Brodner's incredible final cover, found here.

[...] Well screw it, I'll just post the cover. Rove on the right, destro.



Images and book information, all courtesty mackwhite.com
posted by Peter H at 10:16 AM on August 6, 2004


Wow, that is quite a best seller list isn't it... 7 of the top 15 are pro bush, with 1 having a liberal bent. Here are the seven... Who buys this crap?

Unfit for Command : Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry
American Soldier by TOMMY FRANKS
A Matter Of Character: Inside The White House Of George W. Bush
Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man
Misunderestimated: The President Battles Terrorism, John Kerry, and the Bush Haters
Reckless Disregard: How Liberal Democrats Undercut Our Military, Endanger Our Soldiers, and Jeopardize Our Security
The Third Terrorist : The Middle East Connection to the Oklahoma City Bombing
posted by zeoslap at 10:17 AM on August 6, 2004


They're probably being bought by your tax dollars.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:32 AM on August 6, 2004


This is exactly the same crap Republicans pulled with Cleland and McCain. As usual, right wingers and gelded right-wingers ("moderates") have to be led by the nose to see the error of their ways.

Fortunately, a few have (finally) seen the error of their ways (which more and more wingers and "moderates" are....finally....doing):

But yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry's former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star -- one of the main allegations in the book. The affidavit was given to The Boston Globe by the anti-Kerry group to justify assertions in their ad and book.

Yesterday, reached at his home, Elliott said he regretted signing the affidavit and said he still thinks Kerry deserved the Silver Star.


Oh, and zeoslap....that's more of the vast liberal media machine we're always hearing about.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 10:33 AM on August 6, 2004


A Field Guide to Corruption in Government

15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written:
" 'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it 'a den of thieves.'"
posted by matteo at 10:42 AM on August 6, 2004


Me thinks the Amazon Bestseller list has been comprimised.

Compare it to The NY Times Bestseller List and you'll see none of those books listed. Unless people only buy those books through Amazon.
posted by destro at 10:52 AM on August 6, 2004


Last one to finish has to eat the cracker!
posted by dhoyt at 10:58 AM on August 6, 2004


Well, Amazon does list books that haven't actually been released yet. And didn't the Amazon Best Sellers list have Wil Wheaton's book at number One for about a Web-Year (2 weeks)?

Somebody ought to look up stats about how much of the book-buying public do it at Amazon (I'm too lazybusy to right now); I suspect they are less dominant in their field than WalMart is in everything else.
posted by wendell at 11:05 AM on August 6, 2004


Does anyone ever get sued for libel anymore?
posted by psmealey at 11:28 AM on August 6, 2004


psmealey, apparently the Kerry campaign's been circulating letters to television and radio station operators saying that they ads are libelous. Whether anyone'll actually get sued, though...
posted by kenko at 11:34 AM on August 6, 2004


I don't see this campaign carrying a lot of weight. People are naturally going to be skeptical of claims that a decorated war hero is a fraud, because there's simply so much evidence pointing the other way and because the claims are all so partisan in nature. The ones who believe are the ones who want to believe -- this is barely going to register a blip.

The Guard was (and remains) a scandal for Bush because he simply hasn't been able to prove that he was ever there, despite the fact that there would have been all sorts of documentation had he actually been there. In fact, this is an area that Bush is crazy to get into -- not only does his service compare unfavorably with Kerry's, but his spin campaign does as well. It doesn't look good for someone who can't convince us that he isn't a draft dodger to try -- and fail -- to tear down the service of a decorated veteran.
posted by Epenthesis at 11:37 AM on August 6, 2004


...yet they will, and they might just succeed.


Boggles the mind.
posted by gottabefunky at 11:49 AM on August 6, 2004


this is an area that Bush is crazy to get into

But this is the frustrating thing. The Bush camp claims to have no control over these Swift Boat (short bus?) people. And that it is shocked, I say, shocked to find out that such shenanigans are going on. I don't know who actually buys that, but as long as they are not funding it directly, they can claim that they'd really wish those Swift Boat guys would stop (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more), ultimately it has nothing to do with them.
posted by psmealey at 11:53 AM on August 6, 2004


The speed of the smear train means that, by the time a lawsuit got filed and under way, we'd be past the elections and the impact would have already been felt. Why bother to sue when any resolution that way will take years?

What blows my mind is that Kerry's service record continues to be an issue when George Bush's records have been oh so conveniently lost forever so it can't be proven that he was AWOL from his pathetic little service duty.

The ugly spin machine for the GOP is truly outdoing itself with the lies and deciet they are spreading. And yes, I do wholeheartedly believe that ShrubCo knew and approved the SWV ads.
posted by fenriq at 11:55 AM on August 6, 2004


Hmmm.....I might just be tempted to write some scathing reviews of certain books I've never read.

Oh, on second thought, that would be unethical.

Heh.
posted by troutfishing at 11:58 AM on August 6, 2004


Last one to finish has to eat the cracker!

Cannibalism is so last year...
posted by inpHilltr8r at 11:58 AM on August 6, 2004


fenriq, I am not eating the cracker. Not after that conspiracy load you blew on it. Yes, George Bush is not a very good president, no his cabinet is not helping things at all, yes we should have gone to war for different reasons, yes a lot of people don't want to hear another side to the story, yes people pigeion hole each other into political camps, yes if we keep judging people before they can speak we've done nothing to further ourselves.....
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:06 PM on August 6, 2004


At least a couple of Kerry's previous electoral opponents have tried the same crap, and they all seem to have gotten burned by it.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:06 PM on August 6, 2004


Is it true, though, that John Kerry actually killed a man? He shot a man with a gun, and now that man is dead? I mean, he didn't approve a distant execution as George Bush often did as governor, but actually pulled the trigger on another human being who was standing (or running) in front of him? And that human being is no longer alive? John Kerry took the life of another human being, whose corpse was then accessible for his viewing? Did he look at the man he killed after he killed him? Did he try to find out who he was, or where he came from, or if he had any family? Has he given this man any thought since? Did John Kerry travel 3,000 miles across the ocean, and travel upriver to some obscure spot and kill a man he never met before, and whose existence, in the ordinary run of things, would never have intersected with his own? John Kerry actually made an effort to be in this place and kill this man. And now this man, whoever he was, is gone. I know John Kerry threw his medals over the White House fence, and shame at having killed this man may have been among his motivations. But now he's running for president as this swaggering warrior, bedecked with medals. He's portraying himself as a war hero, standing on the back of this man's corpse and pounding his chest. It seems to me that he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too. I mean, he killed a guy he didn't know and wasn't angry with. Don King killed a guy, but at least he knew the man personally, and had some motivation. But Kerry just killed some stranger. I'm voting for Bush.
posted by Faze at 12:10 PM on August 6, 2004


That's the first stoner endorsement of Bush I've ever seen.
posted by psmealey at 12:16 PM on August 6, 2004


I mean, he killed a guy he didn't know and wasn't angry with.
A sniper trying to kill the men under his command. {think that just killed the butcher}
posted by thomcatspike at 12:22 PM on August 6, 2004


Does Amazon base their rating on sales, or on user reviews, or what? I wish I had a nickle for every review on Amazon that rated the book 5 stars and then started with the sentence, "I haven't read the book yet, but..."
posted by RylandDotNet at 12:28 PM on August 6, 2004


it's 1988 all over again.
Lee Atwater must be smiling his creepy crooked Alabama-boy-on-his-way-to-a-lynching smile -- as much as anyone could smile while drowning in the flames of eternal damnation, of course.

and this year's smear isn't even plainly racist as the Willie Horton masterpiece. we'll see if Kerry is weak enough not to have some ally hit back against Bush with something even uglier than this Sweet Boat Liars crap.

Bush jr wants to replay 1988? OK, then, I'd say if I worked for Kerry. let's.
those old enough to remember Ann Richards and her "Where was George" (it was W's daddy of course) Atlanta speech, know that the same tag works in 2004 for Poppy's son. oh, it works so beautifully, time's arrow sometimes does fly backwards...


ANN RICHARDS 1988 FOOTAGE

Where was George?

FOOTAGE of KERRY in actual military uniform, juxtaposed to Bush's male cheerleader uniform

VOICEOVER

"More than 30 years after his quote unquote "service" in the National Guard, doubts still linger about that utterly invisible rich Bush kid's service. John Kerry -- decorated war hero. George W. Bush, draft-dodging National Guardsman with a possible drug problem


ANN RICHARDS

Where was George?...

VOICEOVER

...when John Kerry was fighting for his country?

FOOTAGE of Bush's infamous drunken video, slurred words and all

VOICEOVER

And what about the Sweet Boat Liars? Not one single quote unquote veteran of the 13 in the commercial served on Kerry's boat. Not a single one. Only six crewmates served with John Kerry on his boat. Five of them support his candidacy, and one is deceased.

FOOTAGE OF YOUNG JOHN McCAIN IN UNIFORM

VOICEOVER

US Senator and war hero John McCain has condemned the Sweet Boat Liars. John McCain is on John Kerry's side, against the liars. In Vietnam, George W. Bush wasn't on John Kerry's boat.

ANN RICHARDS

Where was George?

STILL IMAGE OF GEORGE W BUSH, CREEPILY FROZEN ON SCREEN

VOICEOVER

Safe, in America, invisible. And possibly AWOL


FADEOUT




this of course, if one does want to get a little bareknuckled
;)
posted by matteo at 12:41 PM on August 6, 2004


"In 1988, fighting Dukakis, I said that I 'would strip the bark off the little bastard' and 'make Willie Horton his running mate.' I am sorry for both statements: the first for its naked cruelty, the second because it makes me sound racist, which I am not. Mostly I am sorry for the way I thought of other people. Like a good general, I had treated everyone who wasn't with me as against me."

-Lee Atwater
posted by psmealey at 12:49 PM on August 6, 2004


Hey, I'm looking for a tie between the Swift Water Vets and the GOP for a comment thread on my site. I am contending that they are absolutely bankrolled and controlled by ShrubCo but I need some back up fact.

Can anyone help me out?

And Keyser Soze, I'm not quite sure I catch your point? For or against? It reads like you dropped a few words or a sentence or two.
posted by fenriq at 12:58 PM on August 6, 2004


How many American presidents have been actual killers? I mean, were the sole agent in the violent death of another human being? I'm sure George Washington must have killed. Andrew Jackson killed. Grant probably killed. Teddy Roosevelt may have killed. Did Eisenhower ever pull a gun and shoot another man? Did Kennedy ever kill a man in battle? I'm sure Nixon and Carter didn't. Reagan worked as a lifeguard and saved (they claim) 35 lives. If Kerry wins, he'll be the first president in a long time who's killed a guy.
posted by Faze at 1:04 PM on August 6, 2004


psmealey, apparently the Kerry campaign's been circulating letters to television and radio station operators saying that they ads are libelous.

Or, in another way of looking at it, letters that try to intimidate the stations into dropping the ad. Meh.

we'll see if Kerry is weak enough not to have some ally hit back against Bush with something even uglier than this Sweet Boat Liars crap...

this of course, if one does want to get a little bareknuckled


And if one wants to harm the Kerry campaign and take a resounding shit on Kerry's attempts to portray himself as a civil campaigner. Given how you offer Kerry a mudslinging strategy as a first resort, I suspect you'd highly enjoy it if that's all both campaigns ever did.
posted by Krrrlson at 1:14 PM on August 6, 2004


His mother always told him
Stay outta Asia son
Don't join the military and don't ever play with guns
But he shot a man in Mekong
Just to watch him die
And now campaigning for the White House
Is how he spends his time
posted by arto at 1:15 PM on August 6, 2004


Faze, Bush is at minimum an accomplice to the killing of thousands of people. (This may or may not have been justified, depending on your views.) Also: this was his decision, he was not ordered to do it, he was not placed in a situation where he was forced to do it for his own protection.

Bush decided that those people, women and children among them, were worth killing. He did not have to do so. He had other options and decided that they were less desirable.

So I can't understand why you're hung up on Kerry having killed.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:18 PM on August 6, 2004


*sneaks a pinch from Faze's dimebag*
posted by dhoyt at 1:19 PM on August 6, 2004


It's hard to say how many of these actually killed another man in battle, but the list is a lot longer than you think.

From: US Presidents: Lists and Records

Presidents who killed people outside of war (or who were accused thereof)
  • George Washington - accused of murdering a French ambassador during peacetime.
  • Andrew Jackson - killed a man in a duel
Presidents who served in wars
  • George Washington - Commander in Chief of Continental Army during the American Revolution.
  • James Monroe - served in American Revolution
  • Andrew Jackson - American Revolution, War of 1812, First Seminole War
  • William Henry Harrison - Indian wars in the NW territory, War of 1812
  • John Tyler - War of 1812
  • Zachary Taylor - War of 1812, Black Hawk, Second Seminole, and Mexican wars
  • Franklin Pierce - Mexican War
  • James Buchanan - War of 1812
  • Abraham Lincoln - Black Hawk War
  • Andrew Johnson - Civil War
  • Ulysses Grant - Mexican War, Civil War
  • Rutherford Hayes - Civil War
  • James Garfield - Civil War
  • Chester Arthur - Civil War
  • Benjamin Harrison - Civil War
  • William McKinley - Civil War
  • Theodore Roosevelt - Spanish-American War
  • Harry Truman - WWI
  • Dwight Eisenhower - WWI and WWII
  • John Kennedy - WWII
  • Lyndon Johnson - WWII
  • Richard Nixon - WWII
  • Gerald Ford - WWII
  • George HW Bush - WWII
Presidents who were in the military but who saw no action
  • James Madison
  • James Polk
  • Millard Fillmore
  • Jimmy Carter
  • Ronald Reagan - kept out of combat due to bad eyesight
  • George W. Bush

posted by psmealey at 1:20 PM on August 6, 2004


Faze, you're quite right (AFIK) that Bush hasn't killed a guy. Whoever went to Vietnam in his place did it for him. But as commander in chief, he went to war in Iraq without showing a credible threat and no state of war previously existed; whereas Kerry's shooting was of a man who was, we are informed, an imminent threat to himself and his men. Kerry has both the war defense and the self-defense defense, but by this reasoning Bush is a premeditated murderer, if by proxy, of many thousands of Iraqis who weren't trying to do anything to him.

Krrlson, smearing with the truth is bad form, but smearing with lies is an offense.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:27 PM on August 6, 2004


psmealey, Reagan stayed in Hollywood (only to lie later, and brag that he liberated Auschwitz). Bush jr stayed (possibly, who knows) in TX. National Guard as military service? OK, but still not many VC attacking the skies of Texas...

I suspect you'd highly enjoy it if that's all both campaigns ever did.

no, I'd love Bush to run on his record -- of record-high oil prices, the Abu Ghraib child rapes and murders and torture, 1,000+ dead GI's in Iraq, no WMD's, the busted budget, shaky politically-motivated terror alerts, invisible Osama
I wonder why he doesn't run on that record, really

I simply say that Kerry can either take the Dukakis high road, or fight back. I'm sure you'd love him to choose the former and be duly defeated, which is OK of course. others disagree with you, and hope Bush goes.

and frankly it is appalling that after 4 years in power with a Republican Congress and a Republican SCOTUS all this man can do is shit on his opponent.
sad, sad, sad
posted by matteo at 1:29 PM on August 6, 2004


Interesting list psmealey.
posted by stbalbach at 1:31 PM on August 6, 2004


Who buys this crap?

The same people who wonder what idiots when to see Fahrenheit 9/11.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:32 PM on August 6, 2004


matteo, I wasn't the source of this info, just regurgitated it for fun. I think he may have liberated Auschwitz in a movie about it, and confused that for reality. He was plainly delusional, but a liar? Well yes, he was that too, but maybe not on this particular account.
posted by psmealey at 1:33 PM on August 6, 2004


The Bush camp claims to have no control over these Swift Boat (short bus?) people. And that it is shocked, I say, shocked to find out that such shenanigans are going on. I don't know who actually buys that, but as long as they are not funding it directly, they can claim that they'd really wish those Swift Boat guys would stop (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more), ultimately it has nothing to do with them.

Kinda like how Kerry has nothing to do (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) with the crap the spews from MoveOn & Co. (Hitler = Bush TV Ad?)

527's are bad. There are now two major parties, and and groups of 527's on either side that make up shadow parties. Insead of getting money out of politics, it has simple gotten redirected and more opaque.

So much for the wonders of Campaign Finance Reform!

Thanks Senators Fiengold and McCain!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:39 PM on August 6, 2004


it is appalling that after 4 years in power with a Republican Congress and a Republican SCOTUS

It is appalling, and I've lost all respect for the Republican Party over the last 4 years. My expectation was that we would begin to finally get gov. spending and intrusion into citizen's personal lives under control and just the opposite has happened.

To hell with those liars. The Republican Party lied to me. My financial life is far more difficult than it would have been because of budget cuts Bush made, but I don't get any of that money back because I don't qualify for any of his jive tax cuts.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:40 PM on August 6, 2004


Steve, AFAIK the Hitler = Bush ad was never aired on TV, it was a (rejected) entry in a moveon contest, I believe. So comparing that to a nationally airing TV ad is just not apt. Nice try, though.
posted by gwint at 1:44 PM on August 6, 2004


what idiots when to see Fahrenheit 9/11

Nice. How many millions of people went to see Fahrenheit 911? And they're idiots? All of them?

On preview: Hitler = Bush TV Ad?

How many FUCKING times does it need to be said? The Hitler Ad was not funded or inspired by MoveOn.org. It was produced independently as part of contest and removed from the website very shortly after (same day) it went up. Also, MoveOn.org predates Kerry's candidacy by a few years. Honestly, I cannot confirm or deny that the Kerry camp has any influence on them, but I don't think they've released anything nearly as egregious as the bile the continues to pour out of the mouths of the attack dogs on the right.

It does stand in stark contrast though. Whenever the "we" on the left, need to be negative, we go to the record. Whenever the right does, it needs to make something up.

That said, I agree with you about 527s.
posted by psmealey at 1:48 PM on August 6, 2004


Steve, you know quite well that MoveOn didn't produce that ad and didn't air it. They posted it on their site because they posted all the watchable submissions on their site; and they pulled it when the egregiousness of it was pointed out. Whereas these Swift idiots actually paid for this ad to be produced and have reportedly already bought airtime for it. What's more, the Bushies refuse to condemn it, unlike the Dems who repudiated the Hitler ad. You've made a simplistic, fact-ignoring comparison that makes your side look even worse than before you brought it up. Quel surprise.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:48 PM on August 6, 2004


Seeing Faze suddenly realize that soldiers kill people somehow lacks that touch of wonder that occurs when you see a child realize a profound or rather obvious, if disturbing, truth. I look forward to seeing how this might affect his views on war in general, and the the Iraq war in particular.
posted by juiceCake at 1:51 PM on August 6, 2004


dhoyt, ha, pass the dutch! I'd go to faze but he just goes on and on and then his roommate shows up and all they want to do is complain about Sega Hockey.
posted by Peter H at 2:04 PM on August 6, 2004


juicecake -- Killing is wrong, in Iraq or anywhere. We all know about that study of combat soliders in WWII (once posted by y2karl) that showed that up to 80 percent of men in combat either never fired their guns, or did not fire at the enemy, their reason being that they didn't want to kill anybody. Even the enemy. It 's not the man in the White House or the governors mansion who kills the enemy. It's the soldier on the ground. What percentage of killing in wartime is done in a "it was him or me" face off situation? Very little, I suspect. And can John Kerry, having traveled three thousand miles from home, and sailed up an obscure river, armed to teeth himself, and surrounded by an armed gang, claim he killed in self defense or to protect his men? I mean, if this Viet Cong had broken into his home, he might be able to call it self-defense. But this man was participating in a violent incursion. He is a murderer. A reformed murderer, perhaps. But he should tell us that. He should say he's sorry, and apologize to that man and his family. George Bush is big enough to admit that he's a reformed coke addict and alcoholic. What was the name of the guy John Kerry killed? We know the name of the guy Don King killed. But we don't know the name of the guy our next president killed. Let's find out.
posted by Faze at 2:13 PM on August 6, 2004


MoveOn & Co. (Hitler = Bush TV Ad?)

The irony of being critical of this comparison, of course is that Bush's grandfather was, in fact, a banker for Nazis.

Specifically: http://hnn.us/articles/1811.html
posted by Peter H at 2:16 PM on August 6, 2004


Has Bush ever admitted to using coke?
posted by smackfu at 2:18 PM on August 6, 2004


Amazon's "best-selling" list is based on page views, I think, rather than units sold. As a result, you get this self-fulfilling thing going on where best-sellers are pimped on unrelated pages, and people follow those links, which end up increasing their "rank".
posted by John Shaft at 2:18 PM on August 6, 2004


(room gets flickery and slightly out of tune)

I get a contact high just by reading Faze's stuff. Damn.
posted by Peter H at 2:19 PM on August 6, 2004


The Guard was (and remains) a scandal for Bush because he simply hasn't been able to prove that he was ever there

And it's not just the absence of documents, but the absence of anybody to step up and say they served with him. I went to high school with a guy who later went on to manage Hanson, and I remember going to high school with him, even though we weren't friends. Wouldn't people remember if the served with a guy who became president of the United States?
posted by kirkaracha at 2:21 PM on August 6, 2004


...Dude, wait...........What were we talking about...?
posted by dhoyt at 2:21 PM on August 6, 2004


continuing my interest in the upcoming Bush Corruption book,

a page from
”The Bush-Nazi Connection” by Marcel Ruijters
posted by Peter H at 2:21 PM on August 6, 2004


But this man was participating in a violent incursion. He is a murderer.

Like all those soldiers in Iraq, that Bush put there!!!?!

IHBT, I think. I'm just baffled.
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:23 PM on August 6, 2004


whoa whoa, dhoyt ....
don't click that link i just posted man! even bumms me out. fuck. what the? presiden? nazi? WHA?T shiii. facts are dumb! and Faze is right. Killing is made for not being done to stupid for America and don't say I told you not.

check this shit out instedd. Math is hard.

man, faze's shit gets me all indignant and then goofy
and now i'm just mellow. MEll O. like a hello.

hehe. anyunn wanna watch comedy centra, HA...shit i never wanna come down.


zzz.
posted by Peter H at 2:28 PM on August 6, 2004


Amazon's "best-selling" list is based on page views, I think, rather than units sold.

No, I don't think that's correct. Here's some unofficial info on the ranking system.
posted by gwint at 2:34 PM on August 6, 2004


Though the conflict may prove Peloponnesian, in the present the donkey can kick too and is, possibly, quicker than that pugilistic but ponderous payola-pustule populated pachyderm, partially paralyzed by prophesies of pyrolysis potentiated putrescence.

A petulant purported potentate of a purled pajama prince, puerile and promiscuously a-propaeduetic, a potentially purulent puppet (or pygmalion?), puissance ptotic, prinks his probity's pulchritude and pines for prior pridefully protruberant Priapism prolapsed now to a prosoma.

Foes no longer placable, himself no Pizzaro, he perhaps prefers past parental placenta or, psyche now pervious to puny peccadilloes pines, "Perchance I am platyrrhine? Pshaw! - Am I not a pendragon? Ouch! - My piles! - a prune?"
posted by troutfishing at 2:41 PM on August 6, 2004


fuck. dude. alliteration. wow. cool. what? oh, awesome alliteration. * laughs self to sleep *
posted by psmealey at 2:43 PM on August 6, 2004


juicecake -- Killing is wrong, in Iraq or anywhere. We all know about that study of combat soliders in WWII (once posted by y2karl) that showed that up to 80 percent of men in combat either never fired their guns, or did not fire at the enemy, their reason being that they didn't want to kill anybody. Even the enemy. It 's not the man in the White House or the governors mansion who kills the enemy. It's the soldier on the ground.

I agree that killing is wrong (though of course killing what can be argued as the slaughter of animals, including the fish I consumed today, is certainly widespread and might even be called indiscriminate even if it is regulated). I am also fully aware that many a soldier fired his gun into the air in the first and second world wars (and most likely others). I'm also aware that guerilla warfare and the type of warfare conducted in Vietnam in general varied greatly from the trench variety. As a result, soldiers firing into the air as an option would be rather limited.

It is also common knowledge that people willing to kill make war possible, though motives may be examined and we might discover that though many get off on slaughtering others, others do so because they truly believe they must to defend themselves and their country and would rather not, if at all possible. Sometimes, people are persuaded it is the only possibility by, oh I don't know, their leaders perhaps. It's sheep we're up against indeed. If everyone refused to kill each other, well, that would be truly wonderful. I don't see the current President, or indeed any of them, attempting to bring such a directive into effect. Indeed, all I see is the acceptance of the status quo in this regard. Look at the "limited" nuclear testing the Bush administration is interested in for example.

However, the current President and indeed many of them have all been willing to put soldiers to use, George among them. I'd love to hear your views on all the murderers, as you say, in the U.S. army at the moment and the balance of responsiblity between what they are doing and what they are being used to do by those in power. Futhermore, what means of employment or public office current and ex-soldiers might be refused save a full apology for engaging in war activity (within the "rules of war").

It'd be wonderful if everyone refused to use weapons but unfortunately that is not the case today. Work with me to make the world a better place Faze. However, I'm not sure how Kerry's soldiering is of any true significance when contrasting his qualifications with Mr. Bush. Unless you're trying to persuade us that Bush didn't serve because of his concern for human life, a concern that perhaps Kerry lacks. Unfortunately, if this is the case, I just don't buy it.
posted by juiceCake at 3:24 PM on August 6, 2004


here's more on the co-author of the book, Jerome Corsi.
posted by amberglow at 3:50 PM on August 6, 2004


Whoa. Faze, man, don't bogart that!
posted by five fresh fish at 4:08 PM on August 6, 2004


I simply say that Kerry can either take the Dukakis high road, or fight back. I'm sure you'd love him to choose the former and be duly defeated, which is OK of course. others disagree with you, and hope Bush goes.

And I merely point out that the hysterical, hyperbole-laden way you suggest he do it will only hurt his campaign. There's fighting dirty and then there's fighting dirty and looking bad doing it. By the way, I could yet again elaborate as to how I am not exactly a Bush supporter, but that would probably be wasting words.


Nice. How many millions of people went to see Fahrenheit 911? And they're idiots? All of them?

We're all entitled to our opinion.


That said, I agree with you about 527s.

As do I.
posted by Krrrlson at 4:13 PM on August 6, 2004


*COUGH!* five fresh, here —(passes)
posted by Peter H at 4:20 PM on August 6, 2004


Swift Boat effort a bought-and-paid for attempted political smear devoid of substance, well established ties, over decades between the Bush family and Nazis, Nazi sympathizers, and former members of Eastern European Nazi groups (implicated in Holocaust bloodshed) turned political advisors to the Republican Party ? Payoff money from Auschwitz implicated IG Farben and WW2 Germany's largest industrial group to George W's grandfather part of George W's inheritance ?

Oh, impossible, impossible! It's not so! Make it go away!

Abegnostically gnarled gnomonic gnattering nabobs nocturnally gnaw the gnu of the known, nightly, to a nub.
posted by troutfishing at 5:11 PM on August 6, 2004


faze ... i'm shocked ... do you mean to tell me that people were killing each other during world war 2? ... i don't believe it ... how could such a thing happen? ... and how could john kerry think of killing someone in nam in self-defense? ... there were only 50,000 us soldiers killed there, one more wouldn't have made that much of a difference, right? ... i mean, those vietnamese were just having fun and got a little rough with us, there was no reason for him to take it all seriously, like, and kill someone ... why i bet he's the kind of person ... like if he was sitting at a desk somewhere and had to sign a paper to save someone's life ... he wouldn't do that either ... and he'd probably, like, you know, bomb the shit out of other countries and stuff and kill a bunch of people ... and wow, he probably even like snorted drugs and stuff and helps support drug dealers that like kill and stuff ...

oh, wait ... that's the other guy, isn't it?
posted by pyramid termite at 5:36 PM on August 6, 2004


DAVE'S NOT HERE, MAN.
posted by quonsar at 5:44 PM on August 6, 2004


oh, wait ... that's the other guy, isn't it?

you forgot the puppy eating.
posted by Krrrlson at 5:59 PM on August 6, 2004


But seriously. What's the guy's name who Kerry killed? We know all about these candidates, and their early lives, etc. But this is a pretty big deal. This man was personally killed by John Kerry, the next president of the United States. Who was this man who was killed by John Kerry? What was his name? How come nobody's trying to find out. If George Bush had shot a guy, you can bet we'd all know his name. Michael Moore would have made a movie about him. We'd be seeing his picture on TV accompanied by lachrymose music. But John Kerry kills a man and the man's identity is allowed to fade into history. Why doesn't some news organization send a reporter into Vietnam and follow up on this?
posted by Faze at 6:51 PM on August 6, 2004


Tell us the names of all the Iraqi dead since we invaded, Faze, all of which would still be alive if Bush hadn't decided to go to war there--And why are you harping on what one guy did to one other guy during wartime? Don't you think he felt bad? Have you ever heard him brag about it? Has he stated how cool it was, or taunted the pleas of the guy about to be killed? (which Bush actually did with Karla Tucker in Texas.) Didn't he spend years after coming home leading Antiwar groups? Hasn't he done enough good in his life to outweigh something he had to do during a war? Don't you place any responsibility on his commanding officers or the people who sent him there to kill Vietnamese? Don't you think it'll stay with him always?

(i can't imagine killing anyone, but i think i'd be devastated, unless it was to save someone i love.)
posted by amberglow at 7:06 PM on August 6, 2004


nah--i'd still be devastated.
posted by amberglow at 7:09 PM on August 6, 2004


What's the guy's name who Kerry killed?

phuc i fino

i believe he was half vietnamese and half italian ... now that we've got that answered ...

krrrlson ... HE EATS PUPPIES????????
posted by pyramid termite at 7:11 PM on August 6, 2004


*meticulously separates seeds & stems*
posted by dhoyt at 7:15 PM on August 6, 2004


hey man, you ought to try my beer bong ... it's righteous, dude!
posted by pyramid termite at 7:19 PM on August 6, 2004


Faze, if George Bush had actually been in Vietnam and shot a man, we would not have invaded Iraq.
posted by MetalDog at 7:34 PM on August 6, 2004


Aw, man, this joint is wet-wet! I ain't smokin' that shit! No wonder that faze is all whack!
posted by five fresh fish at 7:45 PM on August 6, 2004


oh, fishdude, ... uh, like we'll put in the microwave and nuke it and dry it out, man ... uh, do i push the popcorn button or the pizza button?
posted by pyramid termite at 7:49 PM on August 6, 2004


nah, MetalDog, some people are just bad. If you blow up animals as a child, there's not that much hope for later on, i don't think.
posted by amberglow at 7:53 PM on August 6, 2004


amberglow, shit dawg... don't talk to Faze, man. He's fucking HOUSED. Who got a new spleef, y'all? Pass me some of that shit.
posted by psmealey at 8:24 PM on August 6, 2004


that's the best time to talk with some people. : >
posted by amberglow at 8:34 PM on August 6, 2004


Didn't like Laura Bush kill some guy or something.

Wait. Did you hear that? I think someone's outside the door. Shh shh, wait.
posted by eatitlive at 9:24 PM on August 6, 2004


amberglow - I used to burn ants with a magnifying glass, but now I don't like killing insects at all. I sometimes do, but normally I just try to trap them in my hands and toss them out the door.

I didn't grow up blowing up frogs, that's fer darn tootin' . I like to think that none are beyond salvation - though maybe not salvation on the public dime.
posted by troutfishing at 9:29 PM on August 6, 2004


wet-wet = dipped in embalming fluid. I have difficulty imagining anything more repulsive.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:36 PM on August 6, 2004


*dumps family-sized bag of Funyuns® into bowl of melted cheese; submerges head*
posted by dhoyt at 9:46 PM on August 6, 2004


wet-wet - I've tried. complete gimmick and completely disgusting. Tastes exactly like what one would expect from smoking a toxic chemical meant to pickle organs.
posted by destro at 9:49 PM on August 6, 2004


amberglow - I used to burn ants with a magnifying glass, but now I don't like killing insects at all. I sometimes do, but normally I just try to trap them in my hands and toss them out the door.

I didn't grow up blowing up frogs, that's fer darn tootin' . Still, I like to think that none are beyond salvation - though maybe not salvation on the public dime. Between this month and a few comin up., who'd noice?
posted by troutfishing at 10:00 PM on August 6, 2004


You guys do the worst fake stoner quips I've ever seen. FFF saying "whack"? The end is nigh.

I'm not terribly sober now. THIS is what a stoner sounds like.
posted by Dantien at 10:07 PM on August 6, 2004


Preachy?
posted by dhoyt at 10:16 PM on August 6, 2004


Washington most definitely killed during the French-Indian War (not mentioned on the list above). If I remember correctly, there are those that think an action on Washington's part may have accellerated the war.
posted by drezdn at 10:44 PM on August 6, 2004


More Facts on Bush Being AWOL
posted by homunculus at 11:09 PM on August 6, 2004


Sounds like?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 1:09 AM on August 7, 2004




How many American presidents have been actual killers? I mean, were the sole agent in the violent death of another human being? I'm sure George Washington must have killed. Andrew Jackson killed. Grant probably killed. Teddy Roosevelt may have killed. Did Eisenhower ever pull a gun and shoot another man? Did Kennedy ever kill a man in battle? I'm sure Nixon and Carter didn't. Reagan worked as a lifeguard and saved (they claim) 35 lives. If Kerry wins, he'll be the first president in a long time who's killed a guy.


Yeah, that's a good anti-Kerry strategy.

"Kerry is more like George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt and Andrew Jackson and a lot less like Nixon and Carter!"

Compare Kerry to the few historical presidents that most Americans can actually name, that's sure to get people to vote for Bush instead.... But seriously, I think the important question is "Who has executed more retarded people?"
posted by crank at 7:43 AM on August 7, 2004


> that didn't take long

For Filterarians to offer their opinions before the facts are in? Right, confirmation bias is so rare to see here!

Deconstructing Kerry's war record -Robert Novak

> I have read the book and found it is neither the political propaganda nor the urban legend that its detractors claim. It is a passionate but meticulously researched account of how Kerry went to war, what he did in the war and how he conducted himself after the war. The very serious charges by former comrades deserve answers but so far have produced only ad hominem counterattacks.
posted by dand at 10:09 AM on August 9, 2004


and Novak conveniently fails to mention Nixon's original hiring of O'Neill to get Kerry ages ago. Sure, O'Neill not's partisan at all--and Novak is a respected objective journalist who doesn't belong behind bars for outing Plame.
posted by amberglow at 10:34 AM on August 9, 2004


What a difference a generation makes: It wasn't so long ago that sitting presidents publicly disavowed their unofficial supporters' nastiest tactics. Take George H.W. Bush on Floyd Brown's "Bill Clinton Fact Line" in 1992 (from the Washington Post, July 15, 1992):
The Bush reelection campaign today filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission against Floyd Brown, a conservative activist who produced the infamous Willie Horton ad in 1988 and recently has been digging for dirt about Bill Clinton.

posted by amberglow at 10:54 AM on August 10, 2004




Yah, but from that article, homunculus, " I am a Republican, and for more than 30 years I have largely voted for Republicans." [emp. mine]

So he's not really a Republican at all. Real Republicans always vote for the party.

[jigs the bait]
posted by five fresh fish at 9:35 PM on August 10, 2004


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