Finally Answered: Star Trek vs. Star Wars
September 17, 2004 2:38 PM Subscribe
Geek Nirvana: Star Trek's Federation vs Star Wars' Empire By the Numbers
Because we know the debate rages on......
Now if we could only resolve Kirk vs. Picard for once and all.
via Linux Notes
Because we know the debate rages on......
Now if we could only resolve Kirk vs. Picard for once and all.
via Linux Notes
Now if we could only resolve Kirk vs. Picard for once and all.
Sisko!
posted by Katemonkey at 3:01 PM on September 17, 2004
Sisko!
posted by Katemonkey at 3:01 PM on September 17, 2004
I haven't been more sad in my life.
But, on the other hand, here is an article about the Endor Holocaust and a rebuttal titled, The Truth about the "Endor Holocaust". The first article was the only one I wanted to find, but in my google search I found, The Death Star Research Project and a too-long article about Construction of the Death Star. I am not so surprised that I found so much, but I am always amazed how far geekery can extend. I mean the time people invest in these sites are amazing. I guess it equals our time here on MeFi. (ha!)
posted by plemeljr at 3:02 PM on September 17, 2004
But, on the other hand, here is an article about the Endor Holocaust and a rebuttal titled, The Truth about the "Endor Holocaust". The first article was the only one I wanted to find, but in my google search I found, The Death Star Research Project and a too-long article about Construction of the Death Star. I am not so surprised that I found so much, but I am always amazed how far geekery can extend. I mean the time people invest in these sites are amazing. I guess it equals our time here on MeFi. (ha!)
posted by plemeljr at 3:02 PM on September 17, 2004
commander kirk vs kurt cobang, getcher tickets now!
posted by Satapher at 3:23 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by Satapher at 3:23 PM on September 17, 2004
Damn straight, it's Ben Sisko.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 4:25 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 4:25 PM on September 17, 2004
The Cybermen could destroy all those guys.
And I should know.
The silver bastards made a mess out my place over the Labor Day weekend.
posted by Smart Dalek at 4:26 PM on September 17, 2004
And I should know.
The silver bastards made a mess out my place over the Labor Day weekend.
posted by Smart Dalek at 4:26 PM on September 17, 2004
Ben Sisko. No question at all.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:42 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:42 PM on September 17, 2004
Back in tenth grade, a Trekker classmate of mine was convinced the Enterprise could take out a Star Destroyer with a couple of well-aimed phaser shots despite the latter's immense size. I couldn't really argue the point, but that just seemed wrong somehow. Interesting to see some numbers applied to the argument.
posted by alumshubby at 4:50 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by alumshubby at 4:50 PM on September 17, 2004
Heh. If we're talking planetary destruction, how come that site didn't mention the Genesis device? And it also avoided the most obvious point of all:
The Empire are evil, the federation is good, therefore by the laws of karma, the federation will win.
Plus, the federation has better gadgets :)
posted by kaemaril at 4:57 PM on September 17, 2004
The Empire are evil, the federation is good, therefore by the laws of karma, the federation will win.
Plus, the federation has better gadgets :)
posted by kaemaril at 4:57 PM on September 17, 2004
that comparison doesn't really account for the different styles....Trek is capital warships fighting each other....something that hasn't happened since the Aleutian campagin during WWII---especially the submarine like fighting in Khan. Star Wars is more of the Carrier/fighters battle style...which pretty quickly put an end to the capital warship fighting style.
posted by th3ph17 at 4:59 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by th3ph17 at 4:59 PM on September 17, 2004
Yes, yes, but who would win in a fight between Gollum and the trash-compactor beast?
Kirk vs. Picard
Hm. William Shatner constantly overacted (badly) as Kirk and made an ass of himself with every other project he was ever involved in. Patrick Stewart carried TNG for 7 years, making even some horrible dialogue absolutely brilliant. Moreover, he's an accomplished classical actor who didn't even need to take the Star Trek job to prove himself one of the world's finest.
Oh, you mean the characters? Well, Picard violated the prime directive here and there. Kirk fucked everything that walked (and some that didn't) and destroyed the Enterprise how many times?
wait -- no -- HEY! I need that!
[wrests Captain Dorkshit cape back from girlfriend]
posted by scarabic at 5:20 PM on September 17, 2004
Kirk vs. Picard
Hm. William Shatner constantly overacted (badly) as Kirk and made an ass of himself with every other project he was ever involved in. Patrick Stewart carried TNG for 7 years, making even some horrible dialogue absolutely brilliant. Moreover, he's an accomplished classical actor who didn't even need to take the Star Trek job to prove himself one of the world's finest.
Oh, you mean the characters? Well, Picard violated the prime directive here and there. Kirk fucked everything that walked (and some that didn't) and destroyed the Enterprise how many times?
wait -- no -- HEY! I need that!
[wrests Captain Dorkshit cape back from girlfriend]
posted by scarabic at 5:20 PM on September 17, 2004
The Empire are evil, the federation is good, therefore by the laws of karma, the federation will win.
No, kaemaril: Evil will always win because good is dumb.
posted by nathan_teske at 5:25 PM on September 17, 2004
No, kaemaril: Evil will always win because good is dumb.
posted by nathan_teske at 5:25 PM on September 17, 2004
scarabic: The Enterprise-D has been destroyed far more times than the original Enterprise ever was :)
posted by kaemaril at 5:38 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by kaemaril at 5:38 PM on September 17, 2004
nathan: Maybe, but who was it doing the celebrating at the end of Return Of The Jedi? Lemme give you a hint: not the Empire :)
posted by kaemaril at 5:39 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by kaemaril at 5:39 PM on September 17, 2004
My friend and I had this argument (with full knowledge of how geeky we were being) and came to the exact opposite conclusion.
You know, I disagree with what this guy says, but I would defend to the death his right to say it.
posted by Hildago at 5:43 PM on September 17, 2004
You know, I disagree with what this guy says, but I would defend to the death his right to say it.
posted by Hildago at 5:43 PM on September 17, 2004
In a straight-up fight, the Empire squashes the Federation like a bug. Even with its numerical advantage removed, the Empire would still squash the Federation like a bug. Accept it.
Hmm. If memory serves, the big, scary "Empire" had some trouble with a certain rebel army.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:57 PM on September 17, 2004
Hmm. If memory serves, the big, scary "Empire" had some trouble with a certain rebel army.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:57 PM on September 17, 2004
Using the force ... or
being transported into deep space.
I know which my money's on.
posted by seanyboy at 6:11 PM on September 17, 2004
being transported into deep space.
I know which my money's on.
posted by seanyboy at 6:11 PM on September 17, 2004
It's been many years since I've seen SW, and I'm a big Trek fan, so this may be biased, but...didn't the SW stuff happen a LONG, LONG TIME AGO? In other words, everyone in the SW movies is now long dead -- the Empire and the rebels are both long gone.
Trek, OTOH, is in the FUTURE -- it's waiting for us to arrive. In other words, it is the successor to the worlds of SW -- hence the ultimate winner.
posted by davidmsc at 6:44 PM on September 17, 2004
Trek, OTOH, is in the FUTURE -- it's waiting for us to arrive. In other words, it is the successor to the worlds of SW -- hence the ultimate winner.
posted by davidmsc at 6:44 PM on September 17, 2004
Trek, OTOH, is in the FUTURE -- it's waiting for us to arrive. In other words, it is the successor to the worlds of SW -- hence the ultimate winner.
you forget that SW took place in a galaxy far, far away.
they aren't even real humans. star trek is us in 300 years.
posted by Stynxno at 7:09 PM on September 17, 2004
First, I think we need to recognize that LucasArts has become a money-motivated propoganda machine; we therefore can trust the Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections book about as much as we would Saddam's Military Might Pop-Up Book. Sure, he wants us to believe that the standard troop transport is capable of thousands of gigawatts of laser discharge, but it's really just a tool to scare the provinces into falling into step. (Though, of course, we can't really argue the sheer destructive capability of the Death Star, engineering principles thereof aside.)
That said, I think the Empire would probably trounce the Federation. They've got tactics that the Federation couldn't hope to keep up with. The Federation ships just don't have the guns to keep up with swarms of TIE Fighters and Bombers.
On the other hand, the Federation has some key strategic advantages not covered by the write-up, most notably their Transporters and (standard Federation regulations aside) Cloaking devices. They also have a capacity for innovation superhuman in scope, enough to put an end to numerous oppoonents that initially seemed to far outmatch their capabilities: most notably the Borg and the Romulans. This advantage alone may be enough to take the Empire out, so long as Vader doesn't kill Picard Force-style from half a galaxy away.
Come to think of it, I'm actually pretty undecided...
posted by kaibutsu at 7:36 PM on September 17, 2004
That said, I think the Empire would probably trounce the Federation. They've got tactics that the Federation couldn't hope to keep up with. The Federation ships just don't have the guns to keep up with swarms of TIE Fighters and Bombers.
On the other hand, the Federation has some key strategic advantages not covered by the write-up, most notably their Transporters and (standard Federation regulations aside) Cloaking devices. They also have a capacity for innovation superhuman in scope, enough to put an end to numerous oppoonents that initially seemed to far outmatch their capabilities: most notably the Borg and the Romulans. This advantage alone may be enough to take the Empire out, so long as Vader doesn't kill Picard Force-style from half a galaxy away.
Come to think of it, I'm actually pretty undecided...
posted by kaibutsu at 7:36 PM on September 17, 2004
I always thought that the transporter would be the ultimate weapon. Just use the regular guns to get the shields down, then instead of sending an away team, just send several tons of toxic gas, or nuclear bombs.
posted by Iax at 8:04 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by Iax at 8:04 PM on September 17, 2004
Don't forget that the Empire has a waaaaay better soundtrack than the Federation's prozacesque tinkling.
And that's a whole other debate, the Force versus Transporters.
posted by fenriq at 8:10 PM on September 17, 2004
And that's a whole other debate, the Force versus Transporters.
posted by fenriq at 8:10 PM on September 17, 2004
WTF, fenriq? Surely you're not referring the to the theme for TNG? Hardly "tinkling!"
posted by davidmsc at 8:26 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by davidmsc at 8:26 PM on September 17, 2004
Actually, I was thinking of the background music they have during those council meetings. The opening music is not tinkling.
I sit admonished for not being more specific.
posted by fenriq at 8:49 PM on September 17, 2004
I sit admonished for not being more specific.
posted by fenriq at 8:49 PM on September 17, 2004
As with many historic battles, much would depend on the situation and environment of the engagement.
If it were the Federation trying to rescue a kidnapped person/prisoner from a single Empire outpost, then the Federation could probably manage it. If it were a few Destroyers and a Death Star approaching Earth, I'm going to have to go Empire.
posted by stevis at 9:11 PM on September 17, 2004
If it were the Federation trying to rescue a kidnapped person/prisoner from a single Empire outpost, then the Federation could probably manage it. If it were a few Destroyers and a Death Star approaching Earth, I'm going to have to go Empire.
posted by stevis at 9:11 PM on September 17, 2004
Star Trek music good? Blech.
It´s been a long road, getting from there to here.Of course, I suppose you could always counter with Jedi's memorable:
It´s been a long time, but my time is finally near.
And I can feel the change in the wind right now. Nothing´s in my way.
And they´re not gonna hold me down no more, no they´re not gonna hold me down.
Cause I´ve got faith of the heart.
I´m going where my heart will take me.
I´ve got faith to believe. I can do anything.
I´ve got strength of the soul. And no one´s gonna bend or break me.
I can reach any star. I´ve got faith, I´ve got faith, faith of the heart.
Yab yab...posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:15 PM on September 17, 2004
Baa daa yaaa yab...
Whichever side finally figures out how to use their awesome technology to produce a computer targeting system would win in a landslide.
posted by Hildago at 10:35 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by Hildago at 10:35 PM on September 17, 2004
I'd like to interupt this thread to mention that the music currently used in the Jos. A Bank Clothing radio ads is an uninspired ripoff of the Voyager theme music.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:07 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by ParisParamus at 11:07 PM on September 17, 2004
The "Enterprise" theme is also the theme to "Patch Adams", as sung by Rod Stewart. Further evidence that ST music is rubbish.
posted by John Shaft at 11:57 PM on September 17, 2004
posted by John Shaft at 11:57 PM on September 17, 2004
Ewwwwwww...you said "Patch Adams." I feel dirty and unclean now.
posted by davidmsc at 12:10 AM on September 18, 2004
posted by davidmsc at 12:10 AM on September 18, 2004
scarabic: To the best of my recollection:
Number of times Enterprise NCC1701 has been destroyed:
Series: 0
Movies: 1 (Star Trek III)
Number of times Enterprise NCC1701-A has been destroyed:
Series: 0 (obviously)
Movies: 0
Number of times Enterprise NCC1701-D has been destroyed:
Series: So many times I've lost count
Movies: 1 (Star Trek: Generations)
posted by kaemaril at 5:11 AM on September 18, 2004
Number of times Enterprise NCC1701 has been destroyed:
Series: 0
Movies: 1 (Star Trek III)
Number of times Enterprise NCC1701-A has been destroyed:
Series: 0 (obviously)
Movies: 0
Number of times Enterprise NCC1701-D has been destroyed:
Series: So many times I've lost count
Movies: 1 (Star Trek: Generations)
posted by kaemaril at 5:11 AM on September 18, 2004
One of the many things I hate about ST:TNG is that they can't do any kind of space battle without getting blown up and having to go back in time to save themselves. It's retarded. At least ST:DSN had some a$$-kicking in it. Of course Kirk kicked tons of butt during his tenure as captain.
I've been saying for years that the next ST series needs to be the federation against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. Think Robotech: The New Generation but star trek.
"Trek is capital warships fighting each other....something that hasn't happened since the Aleutian campagin during WWII---especially the submarine like fighting in Khan. Star Wars is more of the Carrier/fighters battle style...which pretty quickly put an end to the capital warship fighting style." - Correct. The Empire's tie-fighters would eat the federation alive. The tactical advantage is unstoppable.
posted by tcobretti at 6:35 AM on September 18, 2004
I've been saying for years that the next ST series needs to be the federation against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. Think Robotech: The New Generation but star trek.
"Trek is capital warships fighting each other....something that hasn't happened since the Aleutian campagin during WWII---especially the submarine like fighting in Khan. Star Wars is more of the Carrier/fighters battle style...which pretty quickly put an end to the capital warship fighting style." - Correct. The Empire's tie-fighters would eat the federation alive. The tactical advantage is unstoppable.
posted by tcobretti at 6:35 AM on September 18, 2004
Just read the hate mail this guy gets. Makes me laugh for so many reasons...
posted by armage at 7:20 AM on September 18, 2004
posted by armage at 7:20 AM on September 18, 2004
Pah, The Culture could wipe the floor with either of them...
A fun post fenriq, thanks.
posted by dmt at 11:00 AM on September 18, 2004
A fun post fenriq, thanks.
posted by dmt at 11:00 AM on September 18, 2004
damn right dmt (where is the good ship ROU-Xenophobe when you need him?)
Even a demilitarised ROU would be able to eat the Empires fleet for breakfast.
The old Spacebattles.com Forums are a great source for amusement in these instances (and were linked here a while ago)
posted by longbaugh at 1:09 PM on September 18, 2004
Even a demilitarised ROU would be able to eat the Empires fleet for breakfast.
The old Spacebattles.com Forums are a great source for amusement in these instances (and were linked here a while ago)
posted by longbaugh at 1:09 PM on September 18, 2004
Wraith vs Borg
Yuuzhan Vong vs Wraith
Yuuzhan Vong vs Borg
posted by bargle at 1:40 PM on September 18, 2004
Yuuzhan Vong vs Wraith
Yuuzhan Vong vs Borg
posted by bargle at 1:40 PM on September 18, 2004
where is the good ship ROU-Xenophobe when you need him?
Heh. At least someone gets it. I keep hoping that at some point we'll meet ROU S.
I was just out crackin' skulls. Well, they're sort of like skulls, but with... never mind. The Culture would wipe the floor with either, but then feel totally bummed about doing it and get real high to try to forget. If you wanted to do it with just "one" ship, though, I'd recommend Sleeper Service, for when you absotively posilutely want to waste every motherfucker in the sector.
Just don't send the dude from DBZ after me. Please. I haven't seen it, but I get the impression that they occasionally level solar systems or galaxies more or less through inattention
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:06 PM on September 18, 2004
Heh. At least someone gets it. I keep hoping that at some point we'll meet ROU S.
I was just out crackin' skulls. Well, they're sort of like skulls, but with... never mind. The Culture would wipe the floor with either, but then feel totally bummed about doing it and get real high to try to forget. If you wanted to do it with just "one" ship, though, I'd recommend Sleeper Service, for when you absotively posilutely want to waste every motherfucker in the sector.
Just don't send the dude from DBZ after me. Please. I haven't seen it, but I get the impression that they occasionally level solar systems or galaxies more or less through inattention
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:06 PM on September 18, 2004
Me and some friends were discussing this last night, and all but one agreed the Empire would win easily. This then led on to further match ups:
The Empire vs Starship Troopers (movie or book, take your pick, the Empire still win)
Starship Troopers vs Federation (close call, I'd say movie Troopers would lose but book would win)
Starship Troopers vs Marines from Alien (movie is evenly matched, book would win)
Bugs vs Aliens (undecided - Bugs have the numbers but Aliens are stronger)
Any opinions?
posted by Orange Goblin at 4:13 AM on September 19, 2004
The Empire vs Starship Troopers (movie or book, take your pick, the Empire still win)
Starship Troopers vs Federation (close call, I'd say movie Troopers would lose but book would win)
Starship Troopers vs Marines from Alien (movie is evenly matched, book would win)
Bugs vs Aliens (undecided - Bugs have the numbers but Aliens are stronger)
Any opinions?
posted by Orange Goblin at 4:13 AM on September 19, 2004
Starship Troopers vs. Federation --- book troopers to win?
Hmm. Well, if it were just troopers vs. Federation ground troops with no support from a starship, I'd agree. Armoured troops vs. some guys with phaser rifles is a given.
The moment the federation ground troops have the support of at least one starship, the mobile infantry almost certainly lose. Phaser fire from the ship, or closely targeted quantum/photon torpedoes knock 'em out, or - for simplicity - the starship simply utilises transporters to beam them out of their armour, or beam them out into deep space. Transporters can be nasty without effective protection from them, and from what I recall of the book the Mobile Infantry aren't shielded.
posted by kaemaril at 4:32 AM on September 19, 2004
Hmm. Well, if it were just troopers vs. Federation ground troops with no support from a starship, I'd agree. Armoured troops vs. some guys with phaser rifles is a given.
The moment the federation ground troops have the support of at least one starship, the mobile infantry almost certainly lose. Phaser fire from the ship, or closely targeted quantum/photon torpedoes knock 'em out, or - for simplicity - the starship simply utilises transporters to beam them out of their armour, or beam them out into deep space. Transporters can be nasty without effective protection from them, and from what I recall of the book the Mobile Infantry aren't shielded.
posted by kaemaril at 4:32 AM on September 19, 2004
As a side battle, I'm pretty sure that the Ender's Game human fleet would eat the Empire for breakfast... Those guns specifically made for wiping out whole swarms of opponents would level the playing field damned fast.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:37 AM on September 19, 2004
posted by kaibutsu at 4:37 AM on September 19, 2004
Meh... One GSV could wipe the floor with the Empire and the Federation. Go Culture!
I think this thread will satiate my geek urges for a while. Thanks.
posted by dazed_one at 8:47 AM on September 19, 2004
I think this thread will satiate my geek urges for a while. Thanks.
posted by dazed_one at 8:47 AM on September 19, 2004
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posted by fenriq at 2:43 PM on September 17, 2004