Maybe there's something to it.
November 9, 2004 6:15 AM   Subscribe

Keith Olberman brings election fraud into the mainstream media On Countdown last night Windows Media MP3 he did a 16 miniute story on some strange goings on with the machines. Personally I think we need to move forward from the election, but, if no one checks this out and it's real, we're screwed!
posted by bas67 (84 comments total)
 
We're already screwed.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:16 AM on November 9, 2004


Thanks for the link!
posted by Stuart_R at 6:19 AM on November 9, 2004


"Interestingly, none of the complaining emailers took issue with the remarkable results out of Cuyahoga County, Ohio. In 29 precincts there, the County’s website shows, we had the most unexpected results in years: more votes than voters.

I’ll repeat that: more votes than voters. 93,000 more votes than voters.

Oops.

Talk about successful get-out-the-vote campaigns! What a triumph for democracy in Fairview Park, twelve miles west of downtown Cleveland. Only 13,342 registered voters there, but they cast 18,472 votes.

Vote early! Vote often!"


Does anyone have more links about this? Are the Ohio papers covering this at all?
posted by anastasiav at 6:30 AM on November 9, 2004


You know, I was ready to drop the Adam Sandler "something that could have been brought to my attention YESTERDAY!" line, but it occurred to me that would be an insult to all the people who bravely brought this to my attention three years ago.

Kudos to Olberman for covering this, but man, talk about too little to late on the part of the media, especially the way some of them are acting like this is a surprise.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:34 AM on November 9, 2004


insult to all the people who bravely brought this to my attention three years ago

Exactly. The unaccountability of these machines were well known. All kinds of issues, things like installed on top of unpatched Windows.

To that end:

Both parties had to approve the machines that went in. Neither side should be complaining.

But if no corrective action is taken by the locals, perhaps someone with money and passion outside the locals can take it to the supreme court under the the idea that their local failure is OUR national problem....
posted by rough ashlar at 6:43 AM on November 9, 2004


Here's link from Cuyahoga County Board of Elections. It will take some time to go through line by line, but right off the bat I noticed that in the County of Bedford Hieghts 8142 registered voters and 13512 ballots were cast.
posted by bas67 at 6:43 AM on November 9, 2004


North Carolina
Bush had 9% over the exit polls
Probability: 1 out of 500,000,000 elections


Without a verifiable honest tallying of the vote, you have a situation where the counters of the votes essentially appoint a leader. Can you call that a democaracy?

I dont care who won/wins this one any more, I just want these anomolies studied and to be able to trust that the system is, by and large, representing the will of the people.
posted by jester69 at 6:48 AM on November 9, 2004


You've been screwed so many times you've lost all sensation. If you think this is your first rigged election, you must be using some fine, fine lubricant.
posted by fleener at 6:50 AM on November 9, 2004


You've been screwed so many times you've lost all sensation. If you think this is your first rigged election, you must be using some fine, fine lubricant.

If you really believe that, what kind of a worthless shit are you for sitting around on an internet message board instead of taking to the streets?
posted by jpoulos at 6:55 AM on November 9, 2004


rough ashlar - Both parties had to approve these machines? AFAIK, most states run the entire elections operation out of the Sec. State's office, which is an elected Republican in Ohio. Did you mean that both parties supported HAVA?
posted by aaronetc at 6:56 AM on November 9, 2004


anastasiav, look here.
posted by Otis at 6:59 AM on November 9, 2004


bas67, it's hard to figure out, but I think that's what that red bold text at the top of the page is talking about.

In the registered voter part of the page, the number of registered voters for a town is always equal to the sum of the wards. This makes sense. But in the voting results, the total is always greater than the sum of the wards, sometimes by 10,000 votes, and I think they are saying it is because they double count the absentee ballots.

If you look at just the ward numbers, everything is fine. For instance, if you add up the 4 wards for Bedford Heights and you get 4959 voters, which is a perfectly reasonable 61% turnout.
posted by smackfu at 7:01 AM on November 9, 2004


http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/ballotboxing/
posted by Postroad at 7:23 AM on November 9, 2004


rough ashlar - Both parties had to approve these machines? AFAIK, most states run the entire elections operation out of the Sec. State's office, which is an elected Republican in Ohio.

If that is the case, where the hell are the pitchforks and torches? Or how about a good constitutional legal argument for the people NOT in Ohio and other places that approved the unaccountable machines to get the feds to take away another right of the states?
posted by rough ashlar at 7:26 AM on November 9, 2004


I just keep thinking, if all those voting machines are so easy to hack, how come only Republicans seem to be hacking them? Perhaps we can round up some L337 doodz of the democrat persuasion to help out next time?
posted by spilon at 7:27 AM on November 9, 2004


if all those voting machines are so easy to hack, how come only Republicans seem to be hacking them?

Which is, of course, why they MUST be made very easy to hack. And the one with possession is the one gets to do the hacking (reference Stalin.)

I suggest some wealthy and moral person (oxymoronic?) who actually cares about democracy buy up all the election machine companies and then make the machines very dependable, verifiable and very inexpensive.
posted by nofundy at 7:48 AM on November 9, 2004


Here ya go...
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110804_stolen_election.shtml

Wheeee!
posted by rough ashlar at 7:50 AM on November 9, 2004




If you really believe that, what kind of a worthless shit are you for sitting around on an internet message board instead of taking to the streets?

You've heard of order right? There are some things that should only be not talked about, if one wishes to change it.

---

BTW, I called this b.s. back in April. And many others did so well before then as well.

It was quite obvious what was happening if one was paying close enough attention.
posted by wah at 8:15 AM on November 9, 2004


Hack the Vote??


(copied from duplicate topic FPP).
posted by eustacescrubb at 8:28 AM on November 9, 2004


Approach it from this angle: If more than 100 million Americans went to an ATM on a given day to withdraw $20 apiece and some people got $200 and others got nothing, would any news organizations feel that banks or banking systems were worthy of at least a little sharp-eyed scrutiny?

I think the answer to that is clear, no matter how you feel about Tuesday's election returns or your own bank statement.
--from the letters at Poynter/Romenesko (others say it's a fear of being Rathered)
posted by amberglow at 8:58 AM on November 9, 2004


corruption.
posted by muppetboy at 9:03 AM on November 9, 2004


For selected districts in cuyahoga county (thanks for the link bas67)

District Reg Voters Votes Difference % Turnout
WOODMERE VIL 558 8,854 -8,296 1586.74%
HIGHLAND HILLS VIL 760 8,822 -8,062 1160.79%
OAKWOOD VIL 2,746 7,099 -4,353 258.52%
CUYAHOGA HE V 570 1,382 -812 242.46%
ORANGE CSD 11,640 22,931 -11,291 197.00%
VALLEY VIEW VIL 1,787 3,409 -1,622 190.77%
SOLN WD6 2,292 4,300 -2,008 187.61%
BEDFORD HEIGHTS 8,142 1 3,512 -5,370 165.95%
BROOKLYN HEIS V 1,144 1,869 -725 163.37%
STRG WD3 7,806 12,108 -4,302 155.11%
MORELAND HILS V 2,990 4,616 -1,626 154.38%
BROOKLYN 8,016 12,303 -4,287 153.48%
BEDFORD 9,942 14,465 -4,523 145.49%


There's more.

Sorry about my lack of formatting skills. I have put together an excel spreadsheet detailing all of this (let's here it for Vlookup), but alas i lack the skills to post said file.

All told - 30 Districts with more VOTES than Voters
All told - 48 Districts with more than 80% turnout

Something smells funny.
posted by underdog at 9:14 AM on November 9, 2004


I'm of the belief that we need reporters who are going to tear into this story, but not talk about it much until there is overwhelming evidence that a crime was committed.

Then, of course, frog march.
posted by drezdn at 9:19 AM on November 9, 2004


Well drezdn, I think we can pretty much give up on reporters tearing into this story. But we've seen the web make a difference before. If the chatter on the internet increases to a dull roar, maybe we'll see something.
posted by bas67 at 9:23 AM on November 9, 2004


Relax everyone. Nothing to see here. It's the paper ballots that are the problem. Not the E-Voting machines.

Significantly, problems reported with vote counting were associated almost entirely with paper ballots and not with their electronic counterparts.

“The talk is not about miscounting related to e-voting but about how to count paper ballots accurately, which is a great success story for e-voting,” Santenello said. “This election will go a long way toward boosting public confidence in the e-voting process.”
- Government Computer News
posted by Hugh2d2 at 9:25 AM on November 9, 2004


oops... may i shoulda listened to the link first.. my bad..

/slinks away
posted by underdog at 9:32 AM on November 9, 2004


If one set of machines starts counting backwards or another set starts allocating votes to the other candidate because there's no room or something, and others can't connect to the mainframe, etc... i'd have to say Santenello's full of shit, completely.
posted by amberglow at 9:33 AM on November 9, 2004


we need to move forward from the election

You realize of course that that is code for "don't look too closely at anything messy or complicated and hope for the best?" Just what the manipulators want you to chant.

Without a verifiable honest tallying of the vote, you have a situation where the counters of the votes essentially appoint a leader. Can you call that a democaracy?

Every man, woman and child in the nation should be forced to repeat that aloud over and over and over again until it sinks in.
posted by rushmc at 9:34 AM on November 9, 2004


I do know that rushmc, and I think that something is wrong with the voting, that's why I posted this. But I also think we need to move forward and not get stuck in the mud on this.

The democrats are spinning their wheels. My party is a mess. We need to work on changing the primary process to a nationwide same day vote with a runoff 1 week later. I'm pissed about the "old and the timid" in Iowa choosing Kerry in the first place. We were so determined to win that we threw principles out the door. We said "look, he's a war hero, he'll win!" and never stopped to think about him as a candidate.

I'll admit that Howard Dean was my candidate. He was fiscally moderate and socially liberal, he had passion and he didn't pander. He didn't like the press, so the press didn't like him. The very fact that the republicans kept harping on how great it would be to run against him let me know that they were scared shiftless of him.

We have to stop this nonsense about trying to get middle of the road voters. There aren't very many of them left. We have to fire up the base and keep the heat on until election day. We have to tell people that "moral values" aren't just about gays and abortion. They are about tolerance and looking out for those who can't look out for themselves.

I think we can do all of this and look into the voting process too.
posted by bas67 at 9:47 AM on November 9, 2004


Significantly, problems reported with vote counting were associated almost entirely with paper ballots and not with their electronic counterparts.

So what they're saying is that... problems which are detectable are detected more often. Shocking.

We have to fire up the base and keep the heat on until election day.

There are many more self-labeled conservatives than liberals.
posted by callmejay at 9:53 AM on November 9, 2004


there is no fucking way people can remember 4 more years.

"Now" is the time.

MoW.
posted by wah at 9:58 AM on November 9, 2004


I've about had it with people telling me to move on because Bush won. He didn't win, he was given the election again.

When do we march on Washington?

When do we demand an accurate and full accounting of the process? When do we demand that our process not be molested like an altar boy?
posted by fenriq at 9:59 AM on November 9, 2004


When do we march on Washington?

I can't imagine when would be a good time.
posted by wah at 10:03 AM on November 9, 2004


Man, I wish Bill Hicks were alive. If nothing else can be done, there's has to be a way to laugh about this.
posted by psmealey at 10:08 AM on November 9, 2004


The "inauguration" would be a good time, but it's going to be the most heavily-armed and locked-down event ever.

There were protests all over the day after the election,but they weren't covered, for the most part.
posted by amberglow at 10:16 AM on November 9, 2004


I've been channeling Bill for a bit. Got the drawl working and everything.

Hmm, now I just need a place to stand up.

---

The "inauguration" would be a good time, but it's going to be the most heavily-armed and locked-down event ever.

Well then that's right out.

I guess we'll just have to be patient and be prepared.
posted by wah at 10:25 AM on November 9, 2004


The democrats are spinning their wheels. My party is a mess.

I wish I shared your optimism. I'm more inclined to believe that the Democrats are in collusion with the GOP on this. As others have mentioned above, problems in the voting system have been widely known for over three years and NEITHER PARTY has done anything about it. After all of this, Kerry folded like a house of cards, and walked away from any responsibility for dealing with this critical issue: making sure ALL the votes count and not leaving the "selection" of our president in the hands of bureaucrats, statisticians and vote counters.

I expect to get fucked by the Republicans, and that sucks, but that's life, What I am sick of is being fucked by my own party.
posted by psmealey at 10:41 AM on November 9, 2004


Paper ballots are scanned by machines. But the key item is that the precint totals are recorded on some sort of electronic device that is read electronically and the county and then state totals are calculated electronically.
posted by Sixtieslibber at 10:43 AM on November 9, 2004


After all of this, Kerry folded like a house of cards, and walked away from any responsibility for dealing with this critical issue: making sure ALL the votes count and not leaving the "selection" of our president in the hands of bureaucrats, statisticians and vote counters.

That's what i don't get either--why have lawyers all over the country for just this kind of thing, and then not use them? You can be damn sure that if the situation was reversed, the GOP would have used them.
posted by amberglow at 10:56 AM on November 9, 2004


I find that quite strange as well. Stranger still is that freedom loving americans aren't actually taking to the streets, but what do I know.
posted by dabitch at 11:13 AM on November 9, 2004


people are very disillusioned, dabitch--we've been taking it to the streets for quite a while, but no one listens or pays attention, especially those in power.
posted by amberglow at 11:24 AM on November 9, 2004


I've about had it with people telling me to move on because Bush won. He didn't win, he was given the election again.

When do we march on Washington?


You should be writing for the weekly world news. Seriously, you scare me.

we've been taking it to the streets for quite a while, but no one listens or pays attention, especially those in power.

It's not that no one listened. 51 percent of the people disagreed with you. You are not a victim.
posted by justgary at 11:32 AM on November 9, 2004


justgary, it scares you that people are passionate enough about the honesty of the election to protest?

People that just want to pave over this election and move on scare me. People that are satisfied that the election was an honestly run election, scare me.

People who aren't questioning the results of a major election when there are numerous instances of problems with the apparatus not only scare me but they infuriate the fuck out of me.

The problem is that I no longer believe that 51 percent number, its crap. Its based on fraud, its based on machines that handed invisible votes to Bush. That number is wrong and blind adherence to it in the face of these reports is akin to an ostrich with its head in the sand.
posted by fenriq at 11:48 AM on November 9, 2004


This is, in fact, all bullshit.
posted by muckster at 11:50 AM on November 9, 2004


fenriq, I have no problem with questioning, it's your certainty that the election was stolen that is frightening.

You must have more proof than we've seen on mefi, or why wouldn't kerry be out there arguing right alone with you?

I know, it's just one giant conspiracy. The new mefi uniform should be a tinfoil hat.
posted by justgary at 11:54 AM on November 9, 2004


Amen brother fenriq.

anybody coming to protest the "inauguration" and needs a DC-Metro-accessible place to stay, email me.
posted by danOstuporStar at 11:58 AM on November 9, 2004


Florida results look fishy too.[via MoFi]
posted by psmealey at 12:00 PM on November 9, 2004


justgary, its not certainty but the longer that people drag their heels and are forced to do the recount, the more certain I become that there are some back room shenanigans going on.

2000 was stolen, that's not being disputed, is it? Why is it such a stretch to think that they might do the same thing again?

and muckster, I like the shoulda been Kerry concession!
posted by fenriq at 12:01 PM on November 9, 2004


we need to move forward from the election
You realize of course that that is code for "don't look too closely at anything messy or complicated and hope for the best?" Just what the manipulators want you to chant.


This seems to be happening a lot on MeFi these past few days. We've got bshort telling others to STFU, we've got justgary trying to quell upset over pharmacists not doing their job, we've got people telling us to "move forward."

I believe we are entering a period where O'Reilly-style "shut up! shut up!" becomes the common answer to social issues.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:06 PM on November 9, 2004


even republican pollsters are sportin' the foil:
To screw up one exit poll is unheard of. To miss six of them is incredible. It boggles the imagination how pollsters could be that incompetent and invites speculation that more than honest error was at play here.
however the conclusions drawn make even sense than run-o-tha-mill election fraud:
But instead of following his logic that the discrepancy suggested vote tampering, as it would in Latin America, Africa or Eastern Europe, Morris postulated a bizarre conspiracy theory that the exit polls were part of a scheme to have the networks call the election for Kerry and thus discourage Bush voters on the West Coast.
posted by danOstuporStar at 12:10 PM on November 9, 2004


No where did I try to quiet anything down. I simply stated it had happened before. If you'd like to post every occurrence on meftafilter, be my guest.

I also said:

Maybe not, but metafilter is 'best of the web' right? I don't see us solving the problem on a discussion board.

You disagree with that statement? And where did I tell anyone to shut up?

FFF, you simply have a problem with reading comprehension. Good luck with that.
posted by justgary at 12:15 PM on November 9, 2004


Is it just me, or did that FPP article seem to be dripping with condescension: "I didn't get the memo" - "evidently I should be washing the feet of my bosses this morning in thanks" etc.
As if to say - "see, democracy works - the media is on it." And then goes on to bend over backwards inventing excuses for why *more* of the media didn't get on it *sooner*. Because really, it looks like this single mainstream mention of the problem was made necessary by the fact that a few activists and, yes, bloggers, have refused to let the matter die. "There - we mentioned it - are you happy? Now shut the fuck up!"

But the problem is, the matter won't die. And now we are stuck in exactly the situation predicted by computer scientists *years ago* - an election in which the crucial margin is held within the inscrutable and unknowable confines of highly secretive, unreliable, unauditable machinery which is owned, controlled, and operated by highly partisan political operatives, with both the means, the motive, and the proven track record of doing *anything* - like say, lying to start a war - to advance their agenda. It goes without saying that nobody wants to lose an election by fraud. Should it not also go without saying that nobody wants to win an election by fraud - unless of course they are amoral sociopaths with no conscience whatsoever. And certainly, nobody would want to *appear* to be winning an election by fraud. Allowing 30+ million Americans to vote on paperless, black-box technology invites this sort of "tinfoil-mongering", it leaves the door wide open for fraud, but also for accusations of fraud. Without a paper trail, or a clear procedure of rigorous and redundant audits, no one can prove anything *one way or another*! One would think that both sides would be eager to instill confidence on the part of the voting public that the process is fair and open. And yet, neither party has made an issue of this, leaving a long gash in the side of the Ship of State resembling one caused by a certain iceberg on another "unsinkable" example of blinkered hubris.


In previous MeFi threads on this issue, post-(re-)(s)election, a vocal minority of posts have hammered away - as if on cue - at the "sour grapes, sore losers, get-over-it-you-crybaby-whiners" meme. But this is a fundamentally non-partisan issue - a large and growing percentage of the American public, on both sides of the fence, are seriously wondering how this could have been allowed to happen. And elsewhere in the world, they look on in horror and astonishment. The shit that went down would not be tolerated in the most backwoods Bantustan - eg. The *chief electoral officer* is the *campaign manager* for one of the candidates!? The voting and vote-counting process is a closely held trade secret owned by highly partisan political operatives!?

Paperless, unauditable electronic voting is exactly analogous to this situation: imagine an old-fashioned paper-ballot election. Voters line up, mark their ballots and put them in a box. When the polls close, all of the ballot boxes are removed to a locked, windowless room, controlled by operatives closely associated with one of the candidates, who tally up the ballots, and then, unobservered, burn them. The results of the tally are then announced to the public. In the event of a "recount", the same result is announced again. Does that sound like a recipe for a free and fair election? No? Why do you hate America so much?

I'll give the last word to Avi Rubin:
"When I arrived home last night, I had several email messages from reporters asking me about my experience. One of them really disturbed me: "After being an election judge, have you changed your opinion at all about these DREs?" I suppose it disturbed me because it implied that somehow my opinion on DREs was based on some superficial measure that could change when I saw them in action. I think the question ignores the expertise of computer scientists, including me, with respect to computer security. It is like asking a surgeon who states that a particular medical procedure is risky whether he might change his opinion because there was a successful operation using that procedure somewhere in the world. Imagine if, universally, all of the heart surgeons in the world said that a new medication was dangerous and could lead to heart attacks but that the drug's manufacturer claimed that it was safe. Would people feel comfortable taking the medication? Would doctors be asked whether they changed their opinion on the medication because somebody took it and did not die? It is a common problem. The press likes to simplify the issue and boil it down to sound bites from each side to produce what they consider "balanced" stories.

Well, for the record, here is my answer to questions like the ones emailed by that reporter: If we continue to use the kind of insecure DREs that were used in this election, it is only a matter of time before somebody exploits them. And the worst part is that we may never know it."

posted by dinsdale at 12:22 PM on November 9, 2004




I would like to hear more about this "Windows Media MP3". Is there some kind of newsletter I can subscribe to?
posted by Pretty_Generic at 1:18 PM on November 9, 2004


FFF, you simply have a problem with reading comprehension. Good luck with that.

Your posts over the past few months have often aimed to discourage continued discussion on any political issue.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:47 PM on November 9, 2004


problems in the voting system have been widely known for over three years and NEITHER PARTY has done anything about it

Yes, that was rather interesting, wasn't it?
posted by rushmc at 2:11 PM on November 9, 2004


Man, I wish Bill Hicks were alive.

Funny you should say that. All I could think as I was reading this was, "Go back to bed, America! Your government is in control! Here's Love Connection - watch this and get fat and stupid! By the way, keep drinking beer, you fucking morons!"
posted by ruddhist at 2:24 PM on November 9, 2004


I've posted some about this on my blog and got a response from a pal, he says the Olbermann piece has been shredded to bits. And links to Keith Olbermann, Where is Your Tin Foil Hat? (I'm sure a page with a title of Vast. Right. Winged is going to be totally balanced) and Florida and Ohio Votes.

I've been too busy and haven't been able to read them through yet. But thought I'd post a counter point. On a quick skim, it seems like they might make some valid counter arguments against Olbermann's piece.
posted by fenriq at 2:26 PM on November 9, 2004


As someone in the UK who listens to the Today programme on Radio 4 every morning (and that entails) and reads a broadsheet. I have to ask the following questions.

How come this whole thing isn't cropping up on mainstream media anywhere when there is the possibility that a national election in a so-called first world country may be fishy? I always thought that journalists even at the wiff of a story like this would go after it like piranhas. Why isn't this happening and why is it taking volunteers, bloggers and volunteer bloggers under radar to snoop around?

If this is a country which believes in the importance of democrassy and trumpets it as a global ethic everyone should follow why doesn't the result of who wins an election wait until (a) all votes are counted (b) all those votes are found to be valid. Just doesn't make any sense to me.
posted by feelinglistless at 2:32 PM on November 9, 2004


Sorry, when I say mainstream media I should have been more explicit. How come this isn't a headliner on the international news tv stations or on the cover of every national newspaper. Apart from everything else, I haven't seen it anywhere in the UK which is amazing considering the coverage the election was getting last week.
posted by feelinglistless at 2:38 PM on November 9, 2004


well if the right are secure in their numbers, fenriq, then i guess they would have no problem going forward with an investigation and a recount.
posted by tsarfan at 2:42 PM on November 9, 2004


Much of the following is directed towards answering feelinglistless' questions, which were, I assume, partly asked in jest, but answered in earnest.

Bloggers are already not invited to the rare press conferences, so we don't have to worry about not being invited.

Americans have been lured into believing that a swift vote is better than an accurate vote. We are concerned about the effect of the results on our economic situation, and on our own sense of peace and tranquility. Our media is very frightened both of being out on a limb, 'rathered', and getting it wrong. That old saying, 'better to have not investigated than to investigate and to find the allegations aren't true' has become a staple of American journalism.

In America democracy is synonymous with capitalism. When we say democracy you should hear capitalism - it makes every single speech make sense. Freedom is also synonymous with corporate freedom, which certainly is on the march.

I am disappointed by international media's reluctance to cover this event. I mean, 'we hate hate bush' is a funny headline and all, but there are more substantive issues to cover about our elections.

As someone mentioned above:
With respect to voting machines being bought by yet another corporation. it's a terrible idea. We as Americans need to value democracy. We can't give it to a corporation ever again, even if it is non-partisan. Sometimes the free market is a bad solver of problems. The truth, that privately owned databases were a terrible idea to begin with, cannot be hidden from us in a maze of HAVA bills. We need to understand what has been taken from us and why.
posted by goneill at 2:47 PM on November 9, 2004


Olbermann has nothing much to lose. An ex-sportscaster doing a countdown-formatted show with one-eighth the ratings of O'Reilly can only gain credibility if he accisentally gets something right. I'm sure he had to say some conciliatory things about the ret of the news media - he's in the same office with a bunch of them, and if they feel dissed, they're unlikely to spread his 'scoop' even on his own network.

As K.O. mentioned himself, no concession speech is legally binding, and there may indeed be a semi-secret Democratic Party post-campaign working under the radar and behind the Repubs' backs, only to go public after collecting enough information to make a very strong case. That's the way I'd do it (which means there's no chance they're doing it).

As for Kerry, he may have just looked over the news from Iraq, the latest economic data and the Republicans' gains in the Congress and decided he'd have to be crazy to fight for this job...

On preview of goneill's comment: "a swift vote is better than an accurate vote". Note to self: register SWIFTVOTEVETERANS.COM
posted by wendell at 3:01 PM on November 9, 2004


I get half the proceeds.
posted by goneill at 3:04 PM on November 9, 2004


goneill: Actually my questions were fairly ernest. All I can say is ... But that's crazy! How can a country maintain stability if there is always a seed of doubt about how justified the leadership are to be in power. I might not like that Tony Blair is still grinning away in Number 10 Downing Street, but I know that he got there because the majority of the UK public voted him in there and that every valid vote was counted.
posted by feelinglistless at 3:33 PM on November 9, 2004


this is weird, from atrios: If you look at the townships for which the subunits don't add up, there's a surprising degree of regularity in the numbers. Specifically, if you calculate the difference between the municipality total and the sum of all of the individual ward numbers, strange patterns emerge...

Any numbers people here who can tell me how those exact matches of numbers listed are possible, unless it was fixed?
posted by amberglow at 4:16 PM on November 9, 2004


How come this whole thing isn't cropping up on mainstream media

Some of it is. I'd swear I saw the Ohio miscalculations on the front page of the Dallas Morning News, and I know it was big on the top of at least one of the CNN/MSNBC/Fox web systems.

It's not giant banner headline news because VOTING GLITCH NOTICED, CORRECTED, NO CHANGES IN OUTCOMES isn't much of a headline.

The Florida stuff isn't on the big news. I'd hope because cooler heads realize that COUNTIES FULL OF REDNECKS THAT HAVEN'T VOTED DEMOCRATIC IN AT LEAST 24 YEARS AND ABOUT HALF OF WHICH VOTED FOR GEORGE WALLACE BACK IN THE DAY DIDN'T VOTE DEMOCRATIC THIS YEAR EITHER also isn't much of a headline.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:23 PM on November 9, 2004


feelinglistless: i don't know - think about all of the other countries that haven't had democracies. That's more common than democracy is.
posted by goneill at 5:05 PM on November 9, 2004


The Florida stuff isn't on the big news.

I happened to catch a short story on this tonight on the ABC Evening News. They discussed some of the allegations and dismissed them.
posted by gyc at 5:38 PM on November 9, 2004


Hey JustGary you'll be happy to know that I've completely accepted this election and it's results and am now experiencing the greatest feelings of oneness and peace. Everything makes perfect sense! I feel a burning desire to consume everything in sight even unedible things and watch FOX TV 24 hours a day, as well as run up my credit cards to the MAX! I will purchase things I never even knew existed!! I have a curious overwhelming desire to wear a brown shirt and go and smash in the windows of anyone, ANYONE I SAY, who hasn't been saved by this truly miraculious of all Presidents and his genius architect who have the greatest of love and benevolence for all true Americans. Really people just let go...let go....know the peace just waiting for you once you simply. Let. Go. Truth is such a relative thing and why not make it what's being told to you that it is? Who says your eyes, ears and mind make any sense in the face of the beauty of this greatest of all social experiments. This experiment in unlimited, never ending corporate expansion and prosperity which will touch us all with it's life affirming wonder. Freedom leveraged towards the generation of endless wealth for all is the only true way and the ULTIMATE GOOD. To love Capital is to love all of humanity. Capital is the frevor that washes away all sins and all weak human confusion from this life, like a born again saint attended to and bourne through the air upon the miracle wings of angels shaped like dollar signs. Just grab it. It's everywhere. Yours for the taking. HAPPINESS AND CAPITAL FOREVER AND EVER AMEN. See the happiness glowing from the overlit media screens sending out rays of love and endless fast food commercials and Car commercials with production values that bring tears, TEARS!! Neverending sports programs that ABSORB ALL THOSE UGLY feelings and act as a heatsink for anything to get in the way of making you not feel GREAT!! Yea brothers and sisters, I say LET GO AND ACCEPT THIS ELECTION AND the unchangeable and immutable love of George W. Bush and his god. I'm talking about the meaning of true love for your fellow man. Capital = True love and redemption. Empirical knowledge means nothing!! Let us trust in our perfect union. It's so easy and feels sooo damned good. I say verily and truly; The only thing to question is questioning itself!!
posted by Skygazer at 6:03 PM on November 9, 2004


(The reality-based community waves Skygazer a fond farewell.)
posted by muckster at 6:30 PM on November 9, 2004


we lost another one...damn. ; >
posted by amberglow at 6:31 PM on November 9, 2004


Your posts over the past few months have often aimed to discourage continued discussion on any political issue.

Nonsense. You're confusing disagreeing with discouraging (unless the post was crappy). Besides, even if I had that super power I don't have the contribution index to make a difference.
posted by justgary at 7:33 PM on November 9, 2004


I ♥ goneill.
posted by jpoulos at 7:57 PM on November 9, 2004


Your posts over the past few months have often aimed to discourage continued discussion on any political issue.

That would be such a brave stance on the blue for the last few weeks. Lonely, too.
posted by Busithoth at 8:25 PM on November 9, 2004


i heart you more j-po.
posted by goneill at 8:46 PM on November 9, 2004


amberglow, don't you know, its all about faith! If you have faith then all those crazy numbers being the same doesn't matter!

If you have faith then you know that Bush won and that he is going to use his mandate to spread the seed of God and condemn them icky gay people and get more money and make more backroom deals and subjugate more generations and so on. Its wonderful really.

Faith. Faith in the system in spite of its obvious flaws because of the faith that the government has in the short attention span of a frightened nation.
posted by fenriq at 11:16 PM on November 9, 2004


...he is going to use his mandate to spread the seed of God and condemn them icky gay people...

*raises hand, asks to be excused from this classcountry*
posted by amberglow at 11:21 PM on November 9, 2004


Skygazer, I'm almost with you....just......hanging....on....

and offering this comprehensive summary of all the shenanigans in Ohio. For those calling for "evidence," I suggest you please read.

And let me humbly offer a "Cliff Notes" insight into why this smells funny, for those suggesting we just "move on."

A level playing field and smooth voting process with equal access for all voters would have helped ensure fair and accurate results in Ohio. However, the whole election process was run by a known partisan, in fact the co-chair of the Bush/Cheney campaign in Ohio, who has repeatedly shown his utter contempt for the democratic process. With no paper trail, no accountability and no questioning, we are expected to simply trust that the votes were counted fairly in this pivotal state.

Just lie back and think of England.
posted by Otis at 6:03 AM on November 10, 2004


2 + 2 = 5

2 + 2 = W
posted by Skygazer at 3:09 PM on November 10, 2004


Are the provisional ballots in Ohio being thrown out? A new rule for counting provisional ballots in Cuyahoga County, Ohio was implemented on Tuesday, November 9 at approximately 2:30 in the afternoon, according to election observer Victoria Lovegren.
The new ruling in Cuyahoga County mandates that provisional ballots in yellow packets must be “Rejected” if there is no “date of birth” on the packet. The Free Press obtained copies of the original “Provisional Verification Procedure” from Cuyahoga County which stated “Date of birth is not mandatory and should not reject a provisional ballot.” The original procedure required the voter’s name, address and a signature that matched the signature in the county’s database.

posted by amberglow at 2:20 PM on November 11, 2004




And i just heard that Kerry flew a team into Ohio on a "fact-finding mission".
posted by amberglow at 10:02 PM on November 11, 2004


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