Thank God for Tsunami, thank God for 3,000 dead Americans
January 4, 2005 12:32 PM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: don't give the god hates fags asshat the attention he craves.
There is only so much energy one can aim towards an attention-seeking child.
posted by Captaintripps at 12:37 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by Captaintripps at 12:37 PM on January 4, 2005
Every society has to have their radicals, even if they're total right wing retards from who George W himself cringe away. I'm sure, if you look hard enough, you'll find equivalent idiots with any religion and not just Christianity.
Though it's been my experience that anyone who does nothing but speak hatred about homosexuality all the time are usually covering latent homosexual tendencies themselves.
posted by GreatWesternDragon at 12:41 PM on January 4, 2005
Though it's been my experience that anyone who does nothing but speak hatred about homosexuality all the time are usually covering latent homosexual tendencies themselves.
posted by GreatWesternDragon at 12:41 PM on January 4, 2005
remember before the internet, when loonies were limited to annoying only the people within earshot? sometimes i think that wasn't so bad. WBC are a bunch of assholes. if they think they're going to heaven, better think again. there's no place for fred phelps at god's table.
it takes a lot to piss me off enough to start talking about heaven literally. fred phelps. asshole.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:41 PM on January 4, 2005
it takes a lot to piss me off enough to start talking about heaven literally. fred phelps. asshole.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:41 PM on January 4, 2005
Now see, this is exactly why I prefer the company of animals over people. Me and my patagonian armadillo are, in fact, to be wed in a lovely little ceremony next week. Please don't tell Westboro about it.
Captaintripps, you hit the nail on the head. Still, it's hard not to want to respond in kind. Or with a bat to the head.
posted by Sharktattoo at 12:43 PM on January 4, 2005
Captaintripps, you hit the nail on the head. Still, it's hard not to want to respond in kind. Or with a bat to the head.
posted by Sharktattoo at 12:43 PM on January 4, 2005
Doohickie- It certainly isn't BOTW, and is NewsFilter I guess but I thought it was post worthy.
Captaintripps- attention-seeking children don't vote or own firearms.
posted by rocket_skates at 12:43 PM on January 4, 2005
Captaintripps- attention-seeking children don't vote or own firearms.
posted by rocket_skates at 12:43 PM on January 4, 2005
We've already talked about this in two threads about the tsunami--here and here.
Fred Phelps is a truly evil person. However, if I were a t-shirt manufacturer, I'd make a bunch of t-shirts with those "Sodomy Ahead" road signs and sell them in Provincetown, Key West, &c.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:46 PM on January 4, 2005
Fred Phelps is a truly evil person. However, if I were a t-shirt manufacturer, I'd make a bunch of t-shirts with those "Sodomy Ahead" road signs and sell them in Provincetown, Key West, &c.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:46 PM on January 4, 2005
How long do you think it'll be before Fred Phelps is caught in a hotel room with a male prostitute?
posted by jonmc at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by jonmc at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2005
1. Westboro Church announces a protest.
2. At the protest, Westboro church is outnumbered 10 to 1.
3. Lather, rinse, repeat.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:48 PM on January 4, 2005
2. At the protest, Westboro church is outnumbered 10 to 1.
3. Lather, rinse, repeat.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:48 PM on January 4, 2005
rocket_skates: Apparently they do. See the members of Westboro Baptist Church.
posted by Captaintripps at 12:49 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by Captaintripps at 12:49 PM on January 4, 2005
I love the little engorging penis/arrows on their homepage.
posted by sciurus at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by sciurus at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2005
Sidhedevil- He's praising the death of Americans in the Tsunami and WTC attacks in this flyer. The previous mentions in the other threads were in response to his statement praising the death of sodomy loving Swedes in the Tsunami.
posted by rocket_skates at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by rocket_skates at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2005
ericb linked to both of the lovely flyers, I believe. I wasn't suggesting that this post was unnecessary because of the earlier discussions, just directing people to the earlier discussions as well as this one.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2005
Praising the death of Americans is somehow worse than praising the death of Swedes?
posted by sciurus at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by sciurus at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2005
Did anyone notice that the ZIP code for his address in Kansas is 66604!?
You'd think such symbology would have driven the Phelps family running and screaming to another county by now.
posted by loquacious at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2005
You'd think such symbology would have driven the Phelps family running and screaming to another county by now.
posted by loquacious at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2005
Moral outrage, here. Sorry I'm late, kids, but I got stuck on Fire Island, where we were having a little "tsunami" of our own.
Mojito anyone?
posted by OhPuhLeez at 12:54 PM on January 4, 2005
Mojito anyone?
posted by OhPuhLeez at 12:54 PM on January 4, 2005
rocket_skates: What exactly is your point? What are you advocating?
I'm not suggesting that he will go away if we ignore him. What I am suggesting is that what little weight he has is because he is so successful at trolling the media.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:55 PM on January 4, 2005
I'm not suggesting that he will go away if we ignore him. What I am suggesting is that what little weight he has is because he is so successful at trolling the media.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:55 PM on January 4, 2005
For those interested in a little more background on this thread's protagonist, Addicted to Hate is a fairly comprehensive (and compelling) biography of Fred Phelps, his family and the Westboro Church. You'll want to take a long shower after reading it, though.
posted by phong3d at 12:56 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by phong3d at 12:56 PM on January 4, 2005
Sidhedevil- Ok thanks, didn't see any link to this when i read the threads but much appreciated! =]
sciurus- no it isn't, it's equally vile. I was merely pointing out that it hadn't been covered in a previous thread.
posted by rocket_skates at 12:56 PM on January 4, 2005
sciurus- no it isn't, it's equally vile. I was merely pointing out that it hadn't been covered in a previous thread.
posted by rocket_skates at 12:56 PM on January 4, 2005
I hate that little prick so much.
As a Kansan, I apologize to the planet that he hasn't been "retired" yet.
posted by Hugh2d2 at 1:00 PM on January 4, 2005
As a Kansan, I apologize to the planet that he hasn't been "retired" yet.
posted by Hugh2d2 at 1:00 PM on January 4, 2005
WESTBORO BAPTISTS ARE FAGS
posted by sour cream at 1:03 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by sour cream at 1:03 PM on January 4, 2005
no it isn't, it's equally vile.
Okay, just making sure. ;)
posted by sciurus at 1:03 PM on January 4, 2005
Okay, just making sure. ;)
posted by sciurus at 1:03 PM on January 4, 2005
Where's the moral outrage?
How about ignoring them?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:05 PM on January 4, 2005
How about ignoring them?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:05 PM on January 4, 2005
Though it's been my experience that anyone who does nothing but speak hatred about homosexuality all the time are usually covering latent homosexual tendencies themselves.
The Bard said it better. :-)
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:05 PM on January 4, 2005
The Bard said it better. :-)
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:05 PM on January 4, 2005
Fred Phelps (the abusive, wife-beating sociopath grossly obsessed with homosexual practices) is happy about the death and suffering of others? Color me shocked.
posted by bshort at 1:06 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by bshort at 1:06 PM on January 4, 2005
How long do you think it'll be before Fred Phelps is caught in a hotel room with a male prostitute?
*begins plotting, M*A*S*H style.*
posted by me3dia at 1:07 PM on January 4, 2005
*begins plotting, M*A*S*H style.*
posted by me3dia at 1:07 PM on January 4, 2005
If ever there was a church that deserved arson, it is Westboro Baptist.
posted by bochawa at 1:08 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by bochawa at 1:08 PM on January 4, 2005
Yeah, the guy who brought us "God Hates Fags" signs at Matthew Shepard's memorial service thinks other ugly things about tsunami victims? Shocking, simply shocking.
What's next, FPPs on the fact that....you can find neonazis on the web who think black people are stupid and the holocaust was a hoax?
posted by availablelight at 1:10 PM on January 4, 2005
What's next, FPPs on the fact that....you can find neonazis on the web who think black people are stupid and the holocaust was a hoax?
posted by availablelight at 1:10 PM on January 4, 2005
If God hates fags so much, why won't he stop sucking my cock?
posted by Debaser626 at 1:10 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by Debaser626 at 1:10 PM on January 4, 2005
Between this post and this one only posts previously, I really despair. I grow more misanthropic each time I see stuff like this. There are some vile, vile people on this planet.
posted by TheDonF at 1:14 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by TheDonF at 1:14 PM on January 4, 2005
Phelps and his family are loonies, pure and simple. No one who was seriously trying to advance an agenda would produce polemic material as alienating--I'd say it borders on sociopathic--as the flier linked to here. Clearly, these people have no idea how to relate to society.
There is an active and powerful anti-homosexual right wing in American politics. The Phelps family is not part of that movement, however: they have about as much political relevance as the guy on the street corner shouting about how the devil government stole his magic beanie.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:15 PM on January 4, 2005
There is an active and powerful anti-homosexual right wing in American politics. The Phelps family is not part of that movement, however: they have about as much political relevance as the guy on the street corner shouting about how the devil government stole his magic beanie.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:15 PM on January 4, 2005
How long do you think it'll be before Fred Phelps is caught in a hotel room with a male prostitute?
he'll repent and come back again like that other pastor did in the 80's (Jim Bakker?). and after all, didn't Roy Cohn insist he had liver cancer? (or was that a Tony Kushner creation? -- I'm no Cohn scholar, thank Allah) . there's just no limit to these people's hypocrisy
if God hates fags so much, why won't he stop sucking my cock?
because that is not a "sexual relation", debaser626
How about ignoring them?
yeah, just like the Right would ignore similar disgusting, sick statements by a prominent radical left-winger.
posted by matteo at 1:20 PM on January 4, 2005
he'll repent and come back again like that other pastor did in the 80's (Jim Bakker?). and after all, didn't Roy Cohn insist he had liver cancer? (or was that a Tony Kushner creation? -- I'm no Cohn scholar, thank Allah) . there's just no limit to these people's hypocrisy
if God hates fags so much, why won't he stop sucking my cock?
because that is not a "sexual relation", debaser626
How about ignoring them?
yeah, just like the Right would ignore similar disgusting, sick statements by a prominent radical left-winger.
posted by matteo at 1:20 PM on January 4, 2005
Where's the moral outrage?
How about ignoring them?
No, no thanks, I'd rather not. Seeing as '04 was a big year for "values voters", and gay marriage and the attitude towards homosexuals a big part of that, I think ignoring the fringe elements of the party now in power is the last thing i'm going to be doing.
posted by rocket_skates at 1:21 PM on January 4, 2005
How about ignoring them?
No, no thanks, I'd rather not. Seeing as '04 was a big year for "values voters", and gay marriage and the attitude towards homosexuals a big part of that, I think ignoring the fringe elements of the party now in power is the last thing i'm going to be doing.
posted by rocket_skates at 1:21 PM on January 4, 2005
Mojito anyone?
Thank you, OhPuhLeez.
Now...granted, being outraged at this is like being shocked *SHOCKED* at the KKK for foaming about the International Jew Conspiracy and the dangers of "the Negro bucks soiling our fine, white women" (on preview: what availablelight said). Shit like this is WBC's raison d'être.
But still, I think it's important to keep a bright light on them (and other such groups) since I believe ignoring them is at our own peril.
posted by MikeKD at 1:26 PM on January 4, 2005
Thank you, OhPuhLeez.
Now...granted, being outraged at this is like being shocked *SHOCKED* at the KKK for foaming about the International Jew Conspiracy and the dangers of "the Negro bucks soiling our fine, white women" (on preview: what availablelight said). Shit like this is WBC's raison d'être.
But still, I think it's important to keep a bright light on them (and other such groups) since I believe ignoring them is at our own peril.
posted by MikeKD at 1:26 PM on January 4, 2005
Why do all these homosexuals keep sucking my cock?
posted by SweetJesus at 1:26 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by SweetJesus at 1:26 PM on January 4, 2005
MikeKD- exactly
posted by rocket_skates at 1:27 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by rocket_skates at 1:27 PM on January 4, 2005
mr_roboto I wouldn't quite say Phelps is irrelevant.
There's a lot to be learned from Phelps. His use of the media and the web, the manner in which he's indoctrinated his children and followers so thoroughly (he borders on a cult, IMO, but there's something crucial that's been changed!), his arguments, and his agenda are all exemplary, in my opinion. Phelps represents an extremist worldview that is shared by a great deal of Americans and in that he's very valuable. (Such a controversial statement should probably be backed up but I can't be bothrered just now.) Whats I really want to know is just how popular the guy is... if there was only a way to know this for sure.
posted by nixerman at 1:28 PM on January 4, 2005
There's a lot to be learned from Phelps. His use of the media and the web, the manner in which he's indoctrinated his children and followers so thoroughly (he borders on a cult, IMO, but there's something crucial that's been changed!), his arguments, and his agenda are all exemplary, in my opinion. Phelps represents an extremist worldview that is shared by a great deal of Americans and in that he's very valuable. (Such a controversial statement should probably be backed up but I can't be bothrered just now.) Whats I really want to know is just how popular the guy is... if there was only a way to know this for sure.
posted by nixerman at 1:28 PM on January 4, 2005
he'll repent and come back again like that other pastor did in the 80's (Jim Bakker?).
Actually, he kind of faded into obscurity and his freakish wife became a gay icon. You're thinking of Swaggart, and he just boned a hooker.
Actually, aside from being a wonderful example of wrongheaded thinking carried to it's absolute extreme, I'd happily ignore him. He's a fart in the wind magnified by a media that feeds on outrageousness.
posted by jonmc at 1:28 PM on January 4, 2005
Actually, he kind of faded into obscurity and his freakish wife became a gay icon. You're thinking of Swaggart, and he just boned a hooker.
Actually, aside from being a wonderful example of wrongheaded thinking carried to it's absolute extreme, I'd happily ignore him. He's a fart in the wind magnified by a media that feeds on outrageousness.
posted by jonmc at 1:28 PM on January 4, 2005
You have been educated stupid. Tsunami has 4 sides. Educators don't want you to know the truth. A single tsunami happens 4 times on 4 days. Evil teachers hide the 4 tsunamis from the 9/11 comission. I will pay $1,000,000 to anyone who can disprove tsunamicube theory.
posted by revgeorge at 1:33 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by revgeorge at 1:33 PM on January 4, 2005
WBC issues a flyer praising 3,000 more dead Americans(sodomites), the 3,000 number a reference to the WTC attacks. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell you'll remember made similar comments regarding the WTC attacks. Robertson meets with the President. How are people who hold these fundamentalist views a fart in the wind?
posted by rocket_skates at 1:35 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by rocket_skates at 1:35 PM on January 4, 2005
Actually, he kind of faded into obscurity and his freakish wife became a gay icon.
Isn't his wife that guy from that old Ted Baxter series?
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:38 PM on January 4, 2005
Isn't his wife that guy from that old Ted Baxter series?
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:38 PM on January 4, 2005
Falwell and Robertson are different in kind from Phelps. The content may be similar, but the action and behaviour surrounding it are not. Therefore Phelps is a fart in the wind.
Meeting the President and influencing policy are also quite different things. The President meets with Robertson, not the other way around, and he does so for very specific reasons which have no similarity to Phelps and every similarity to cynical politics.
posted by Captaintripps at 1:39 PM on January 4, 2005
Meeting the President and influencing policy are also quite different things. The President meets with Robertson, not the other way around, and he does so for very specific reasons which have no similarity to Phelps and every similarity to cynical politics.
posted by Captaintripps at 1:39 PM on January 4, 2005
Give a Middle American with a low IQ a printing press and goddamn we're having a good time!
posted by orange clock at 1:40 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by orange clock at 1:40 PM on January 4, 2005
He's an open wound. Ignoring him has allowed him to fester. He's not an "extremist" in that he leads a small, inconsequential fringe group - our "family-oriented" nation has enough folks in places of power who think just like him, just not so stridently, that gays and lesbians are watching decades of work undone.
posted by FormlessOne at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by FormlessOne at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2005
Whats I really want to know is just how popular the guy is... if there was only a way to know this for sure.
I'm pretty sure that the entire membership of the Westboro Baptist Church consists of Phelps' immediate family. Can you imagine this rhetoric appealing to any socially well-adjusted individuals?
Phelps represents an extremist worldview that is shared by a great deal of Americans and in that he's very valuable.
If Phelps has any value to the American right wing, it's to make them seem moderate by comparison. Having this nutball on the sidewalk shouting "God hates fags" makes the ridiculous doctrine of "love the sinner, hate the sin" seem almost compassionate. But really, I think most people recognize him as just a nutball.
In terms of his real impact, however, I'm sure that Phelps has done more good than harm. He's an embarrassment to homophobes everywhere, and I believe that his ugly public displays of malice drive intolerant people to examine their own dark impulses. See this thread for an example.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:44 PM on January 4, 2005
I'm pretty sure that the entire membership of the Westboro Baptist Church consists of Phelps' immediate family. Can you imagine this rhetoric appealing to any socially well-adjusted individuals?
Phelps represents an extremist worldview that is shared by a great deal of Americans and in that he's very valuable.
If Phelps has any value to the American right wing, it's to make them seem moderate by comparison. Having this nutball on the sidewalk shouting "God hates fags" makes the ridiculous doctrine of "love the sinner, hate the sin" seem almost compassionate. But really, I think most people recognize him as just a nutball.
In terms of his real impact, however, I'm sure that Phelps has done more good than harm. He's an embarrassment to homophobes everywhere, and I believe that his ugly public displays of malice drive intolerant people to examine their own dark impulses. See this thread for an example.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:44 PM on January 4, 2005
I am reminded of the Woody Allen quote:
"I think you should defend to the death their right to march, and then go down and meet them with baseball bats."
posted by wsg at 1:45 PM on January 4, 2005
"I think you should defend to the death their right to march, and then go down and meet them with baseball bats."
posted by wsg at 1:45 PM on January 4, 2005
In case anyone is concerned, thoughtful criticism of this site may be directed to:
Westboro Baptist Church
Charles Hockenbarger (charles@speakfree.net)
7852730325
Fax: none
3701 SW 12th
Topeka, KS 66604
US
Be kind, the poor fellow is obviously quite mad.
Check out:
http://www.godhatescanada.com/?
posted by randomnfactor at 1:48 PM on January 4, 2005
Westboro Baptist Church
Charles Hockenbarger (charles@speakfree.net)
7852730325
Fax: none
3701 SW 12th
Topeka, KS 66604
US
Be kind, the poor fellow is obviously quite mad.
Check out:
http://www.godhatescanada.com/?
posted by randomnfactor at 1:48 PM on January 4, 2005
mr_roboto, it'd be rational to assume Phelps isn't trying to advance but most likely this isn't the case. It'd be very easy and, in a sense, relieving to just write Phelps off as a lunatic but this is also most likely not the case.
I suspect Phelp's agenda isn't to recruit people to his cause at all. In this sense, him making these over-the-top statements (which are, I'd have to insist, continous with Fallwell, Robertson, Limbaugh, Coulter) are right inline with his real agenda.
And Captaintripps I doubt very much Bush meets with Falwell just to send a message. If you look into Bush's nomination you find Falwell basically gave Bush the stamp of approval to run for President.
posted by nixerman at 1:51 PM on January 4, 2005
I suspect Phelp's agenda isn't to recruit people to his cause at all. In this sense, him making these over-the-top statements (which are, I'd have to insist, continous with Fallwell, Robertson, Limbaugh, Coulter) are right inline with his real agenda.
And Captaintripps I doubt very much Bush meets with Falwell just to send a message. If you look into Bush's nomination you find Falwell basically gave Bush the stamp of approval to run for President.
posted by nixerman at 1:51 PM on January 4, 2005
Just like the white supremacists, it hurts to see the young people involved in such activity. Raised on hate and bringing it to a new generation.
(all links are jpg)
posted by fluffycreature at 1:59 PM on January 4, 2005
(all links are jpg)
posted by fluffycreature at 1:59 PM on January 4, 2005
it'd be rational to assume Phelps isn't trying to advance but most likely this isn't the case.
Why would it be rational to assume he isn't trying to advance an agenda? He seems to spend an awful lot of time and money going through actions similar to those of people who try to advance agendas (though his particular actions are apparently filtered through a severe metal illness.)
It'd be very easy and, in a sense, relieving to just write Phelps off as a lunatic but this is also most likely not the case.
Really? This guy is basically shouting "I'm a lunatic!" in the public square, at the top of his lungs, on a regular basis. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck....
I suspect Phelp's agenda isn't to recruit people to his cause at all. In this sense, him making these over-the-top statements...are right inline with his real agenda.
What is his real agenda?
posted by mr_roboto at 1:59 PM on January 4, 2005
Why would it be rational to assume he isn't trying to advance an agenda? He seems to spend an awful lot of time and money going through actions similar to those of people who try to advance agendas (though his particular actions are apparently filtered through a severe metal illness.)
It'd be very easy and, in a sense, relieving to just write Phelps off as a lunatic but this is also most likely not the case.
Really? This guy is basically shouting "I'm a lunatic!" in the public square, at the top of his lungs, on a regular basis. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck....
I suspect Phelp's agenda isn't to recruit people to his cause at all. In this sense, him making these over-the-top statements...are right inline with his real agenda.
What is his real agenda?
posted by mr_roboto at 1:59 PM on January 4, 2005
Phelps represents an extremist worldview that is shared by a great deal of Americans and in that he's very valuable.
Err, oops. I actually mean "a diluted version of which is shared by a great deal of American." I don't actually believe most Americans secretly admire Phelps.
If Phelps has any value to the American right wing, it's to make them seem moderate by comparison.
This isn't the case at all. People like Phelps and all the other conservative media icons are extremely valuable for setting the tone of middle America. You may not find many Americans who will come right out and declare their support for him but you will find those who will agree with him on several issues--to an extent. (And the same can be said for so many of the other conservative icons.) And this, of course, is the crucial first step.
posted by nixerman at 2:01 PM on January 4, 2005
Err, oops. I actually mean "a diluted version of which is shared by a great deal of American." I don't actually believe most Americans secretly admire Phelps.
If Phelps has any value to the American right wing, it's to make them seem moderate by comparison.
This isn't the case at all. People like Phelps and all the other conservative media icons are extremely valuable for setting the tone of middle America. You may not find many Americans who will come right out and declare their support for him but you will find those who will agree with him on several issues--to an extent. (And the same can be said for so many of the other conservative icons.) And this, of course, is the crucial first step.
posted by nixerman at 2:01 PM on January 4, 2005
While they are clearly being extremist to garner attention, if you read their purpose statement or FAQ page, they really do not seem all that different from the religious right. I think it is worth pointing that out from time to time. If you really believe that god sends non-jesusers to hell, then you really believe that god is capable of what (to us mere mortals) looks like hate (though of course believers think that when god does it it's not a bad thing).
Point being, "nice" fundies are much closer to this than they will generally portray themselves.
posted by mdn at 2:02 PM on January 4, 2005
Point being, "nice" fundies are much closer to this than they will generally portray themselves.
posted by mdn at 2:02 PM on January 4, 2005
I highly doubt that what you are implying is fact, nixerman. I'd appreciate some substantiation on that part. As far as I remember, Falwell's endorsement (a much better term) serves the same cynical political reasoning mentioned above and ties not a whit into Phelps.
posted by Captaintripps at 2:03 PM on January 4, 2005
posted by Captaintripps at 2:03 PM on January 4, 2005
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posted by Doohickie at 12:37 PM on January 4, 2005