Defensive are we?
January 20, 2005 12:28 PM Subscribe
Dell dismisses "one-product wonder" iPod as a "fad". Also says cheerleader who rebuffed him in high school "not that pretty, had a big butt and I think she was gay anyway."
"When I was growing up there was a product made by Sony called the Sony Walkman – a rage, everyone had to have one," he said. "Well you don't hear about the Walkman anymore. I believe that one product wonders come and go."
Nice try, but last time I looked, the Sony Walkman (and its successor, the Discman) was the benchmark for all portable audio players for many, many years. I even remember referring to generic brand CD and tape players as a Walkman. I don't think you can really dismiss it as a "fad."
Sour, sour grapes.
posted by salad spork at 12:32 PM on January 20, 2005
Nice try, but last time I looked, the Sony Walkman (and its successor, the Discman) was the benchmark for all portable audio players for many, many years. I even remember referring to generic brand CD and tape players as a Walkman. I don't think you can really dismiss it as a "fad."
Sour, sour grapes.
posted by salad spork at 12:32 PM on January 20, 2005
You're right, salad spork - myself and a lot of others my age all use Walkman as a generic term for all sorts of portable audio players. I'm trying to change that, but it really was the standard for so long - the word Walkman seems to embody the very idea of a personal portable audio device.
And Dome-O-Rama, hah!
posted by livii at 12:40 PM on January 20, 2005
And Dome-O-Rama, hah!
posted by livii at 12:40 PM on January 20, 2005
I don't like Mac People. I don't like People Who Own iPods. They are wankers, they listen to Coldplay, and they drink sour apple "martinis."
And yet, just yesterday I ordered myself an iPod. Why? It's the best portable hard-disk-based audio player on the market today and for the forseeable future. Sure, the iRiver players have more features and the Creative players are cheaper. But they're bigger. And their interfaces aren't as nice.
The iPod exploded last year because wankers and Eurotrash bought it. But it'll continue to be successful because it's a good product. Call me when Creative or iRiver make a product with the right interface and the right form factor at the right price and I'll reconsider.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:42 PM on January 20, 2005
And yet, just yesterday I ordered myself an iPod. Why? It's the best portable hard-disk-based audio player on the market today and for the forseeable future. Sure, the iRiver players have more features and the Creative players are cheaper. But they're bigger. And their interfaces aren't as nice.
The iPod exploded last year because wankers and Eurotrash bought it. But it'll continue to be successful because it's a good product. Call me when Creative or iRiver make a product with the right interface and the right form factor at the right price and I'll reconsider.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:42 PM on January 20, 2005
This is why CEOs should leave the PR to the PR guys.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 12:46 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 12:46 PM on January 20, 2005
You can bet Dell, as the inventor of nothing original in technology, is wildly envious of what Apple has accomplished with iPod. Dell is not the coolest kid on the block anymore. Even Dell Dude, having been canned after an embarrassing arrest for pot possession, is now pushing a new product .
posted by terrier319 at 12:47 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by terrier319 at 12:47 PM on January 20, 2005
Hmm, sounds like someones bitter over the sales of the DellDJ...
He's right about a few things though, the Ipod is just a fad and it's overpriced, I'm quite happy with my Creative MuVo.
He's also right about how the mac mini won't even dent the pc market...
posted by AMWKE at 12:47 PM on January 20, 2005
He's right about a few things though, the Ipod is just a fad and it's overpriced, I'm quite happy with my Creative MuVo.
He's also right about how the mac mini won't even dent the pc market...
posted by AMWKE at 12:47 PM on January 20, 2005
The iPod exploded last year because wankers and Eurotrash bought it. But it'll continue to be successful because it's a good product.
Or maybe it exploded because a whole lot of people discovered it was a good product way before you did? Enjoy your martini!
posted by Thorzdad at 12:55 PM on January 20, 2005
Or maybe it exploded because a whole lot of people discovered it was a good product way before you did? Enjoy your martini!
posted by Thorzdad at 12:55 PM on January 20, 2005
Sony Walkman (and its successor, the Discman) was the benchmark
Yep, but you might look at market share after the first few years.
Rollins is obviously correct about the iPod. Apple is not Sony (an enormous multinational consumer electronics manufacturer with a huge range of products) and Apple is not Dell (the world's largest computer manufacturer and retailer, able to outcompete on the much larger near-commodity market at every level).
Apple with the iPod is a lot more like TiVo than anything else that comes to mind. Creating and wave and riding for as long as possible, but can dominate it for only a little while longer.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:57 PM on January 20, 2005
Yep, but you might look at market share after the first few years.
Rollins is obviously correct about the iPod. Apple is not Sony (an enormous multinational consumer electronics manufacturer with a huge range of products) and Apple is not Dell (the world's largest computer manufacturer and retailer, able to outcompete on the much larger near-commodity market at every level).
Apple with the iPod is a lot more like TiVo than anything else that comes to mind. Creating and wave and riding for as long as possible, but can dominate it for only a little while longer.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:57 PM on January 20, 2005
With the 1-2 punch of OSX and the IPod, I suspect many young volvo-driving/MTA riding consumers find themselves truly converted. I used to be a staunch anti-mac dweeb, now I'm a pro-mac dweeb. That in mind, I was never pro / con Dell (except being decidedly against the vacuous dude campaign) because it is a boring uncreative business with no novel technology to speak of. On the other hand, they make PCs for my parents I guess- and I've never had any trouble hooking them up.
posted by willns at 12:59 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by willns at 12:59 PM on January 20, 2005
I think Apple realizes that the iPod is burning a bit too bright to stay at this rate. But being that MP3 players are aesthetic in a way Walkmans and CD players never were (due to their size and lack of shape-defining media), you want to be a company with a reputation for design to stay in the market. Sony, Nike/Philips and iRiver all have footholds in the fashionableness department, but none of the computer companies do, (especially not Dell) unless they do it under a different brand identity.
posted by abcde at 1:08 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by abcde at 1:08 PM on January 20, 2005
Dell is not the coolest kid on the block anymore.
When was Dell ever even slightly "cool"? Dell doesn't even live on the same block as the cool kids who make original products. Not even in the same city. They're out in a suburban office park somewhere, taking the most marketable of the cool stuff and making crappy versions of it to sell to the people who don't know any better, just like they always have. Dell is a leader in the computer industry like Wal-Mart leads the music industry.
posted by sfenders at 1:10 PM on January 20, 2005
When was Dell ever even slightly "cool"? Dell doesn't even live on the same block as the cool kids who make original products. Not even in the same city. They're out in a suburban office park somewhere, taking the most marketable of the cool stuff and making crappy versions of it to sell to the people who don't know any better, just like they always have. Dell is a leader in the computer industry like Wal-Mart leads the music industry.
posted by sfenders at 1:10 PM on January 20, 2005
Defensive are we?
I blame the words the author chooses to use in the article. An article can be an author’s perspective which here seems defensive.
Rollins was, not surprisingly, unimpressed with the Mac mini.
Look at the words above for where I’m coming from. These words; “not surprisingly, unimpressed”, made me think Dell is defensive which he may be but how do we know for sure. To me the defense came from the terrible writing as some sentences were like reading a double negative. If the sentence had been better written, it may have made the sentence less negative thus the subject becoming less defensive in your eyes.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:11 PM on January 20, 2005
I blame the words the author chooses to use in the article. An article can be an author’s perspective which here seems defensive.
Rollins was, not surprisingly, unimpressed with the Mac mini.
Look at the words above for where I’m coming from. These words; “not surprisingly, unimpressed”, made me think Dell is defensive which he may be but how do we know for sure. To me the defense came from the terrible writing as some sentences were like reading a double negative. If the sentence had been better written, it may have made the sentence less negative thus the subject becoming less defensive in your eyes.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:11 PM on January 20, 2005
I don't like Mac People. I don't like People Who Own iPods. They are wankers, they listen to Coldplay, and they drink sour apple "martinis."
And yet, just yesterday I ordered myself an iPod.
Someday you might realize that you are wrong about a lot of the things you think you know, but this is a good first step.
posted by milovoo at 1:17 PM on January 20, 2005
And yet, just yesterday I ordered myself an iPod.
Someday you might realize that you are wrong about a lot of the things you think you know, but this is a good first step.
posted by milovoo at 1:17 PM on January 20, 2005
But $400 ??? iPod is overpriced. At $200 I might fork over the dough.
posted by adnanbwp at 1:17 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by adnanbwp at 1:17 PM on January 20, 2005
As Rollins mentioned near the bottom of the article, their client-based solutions (PC's, MP3 players) are not their primary market, and not where they shine.
SAN's and big storage are Dell's primary money maker, and where they are the most innovative. From server clustering, rack-mountable servers, and the new-ish blade technology (all marketable ideas developed by other companies that Dell commoditized) is the absolute best that Dell has to offer, and it's not the sort of thing that most Dell customers are even aware of. It is less sexy (unless you're into that sort of thing), but they're pretty much becoming the only game in town for this type of technology.
As for the iPod fad - of course it is. This doesn't diminish the "coolness" of the product, it just means it won't be around forever. Better products will be produced, marketed well, and the iPod will be left behind. It's how consumption works, and will continue to work. Robbin's is just stating the obvious.
posted by purephase at 1:21 PM on January 20, 2005
SAN's and big storage are Dell's primary money maker, and where they are the most innovative. From server clustering, rack-mountable servers, and the new-ish blade technology (all marketable ideas developed by other companies that Dell commoditized) is the absolute best that Dell has to offer, and it's not the sort of thing that most Dell customers are even aware of. It is less sexy (unless you're into that sort of thing), but they're pretty much becoming the only game in town for this type of technology.
As for the iPod fad - of course it is. This doesn't diminish the "coolness" of the product, it just means it won't be around forever. Better products will be produced, marketed well, and the iPod will be left behind. It's how consumption works, and will continue to work. Robbin's is just stating the obvious.
posted by purephase at 1:21 PM on January 20, 2005
He's both right and wrong: There is an analogy to be drawn between the iPod and the Walkman. What he loses sight of is the fact that, for many years after the Walkman was introduced, that's what you had to have if you wanted to be seen as cool.
Thanks to that fact, Sony sold a shitload of Walkmen.
Now, I agree with EB that this is not an endless free ride for Apple. But there's a critical difference between the iPod and the Walkman that means that it's much more than just a "fad", even if you extend the definition of fad to cover a really large and impressive sales phenomenon like the Walkman. (And he, Kevin, man, I was there, too -- I had to settle for a cheap Panasonic knockoff of a walkman. And I was not happy.)
We're all going to get tired of hearing/saying this, I know, but the iPod is merely the driver: iTunes is the money-maker. (Well, iPods are money-makers, too, because many of the standard economic rules, like making buying desicions based on the value of the product, don't apply to Apple. But I digress...) The iPod's value is not as a unit to be sold in its own right, but as something that facilitates the sales of music. They could give the damn things away, and still make money.... (And yes, I know they won't give them away -- that would ruin the cachet of the Apple brand.)
Oh, yeah, forgot to mention: Though they probably don't integrate as well as an iPod, there are other mass-storage players that integrate wiht iTunes. E.g., all the new Archos players.
posted by lodurr at 1:21 PM on January 20, 2005
Thanks to that fact, Sony sold a shitload of Walkmen.
Now, I agree with EB that this is not an endless free ride for Apple. But there's a critical difference between the iPod and the Walkman that means that it's much more than just a "fad", even if you extend the definition of fad to cover a really large and impressive sales phenomenon like the Walkman. (And he, Kevin, man, I was there, too -- I had to settle for a cheap Panasonic knockoff of a walkman. And I was not happy.)
We're all going to get tired of hearing/saying this, I know, but the iPod is merely the driver: iTunes is the money-maker. (Well, iPods are money-makers, too, because many of the standard economic rules, like making buying desicions based on the value of the product, don't apply to Apple. But I digress...) The iPod's value is not as a unit to be sold in its own right, but as something that facilitates the sales of music. They could give the damn things away, and still make money.... (And yes, I know they won't give them away -- that would ruin the cachet of the Apple brand.)
Oh, yeah, forgot to mention: Though they probably don't integrate as well as an iPod, there are other mass-storage players that integrate wiht iTunes. E.g., all the new Archos players.
posted by lodurr at 1:21 PM on January 20, 2005
Well, I've never liked dell simply because they dominate the PC world so handidly wich such ugly products. High quality, expensive and ugly. That's DELL.
I also hate apple, and if I was in the market for a hard-drive mp3 player (which I'm not) I might get an iPod, but I would definetly take a close look at other products. I have a sony net-MD which is very lovely and never used, but yeah apple's dominance in the mp3 player world can't last forever. the 'pod may have been an intresting design when it came out but it's not that great. It certanly isn't god's gift to man like some apple zelots seem to think.
posted by delmoi at 1:21 PM on January 20, 2005
I also hate apple, and if I was in the market for a hard-drive mp3 player (which I'm not) I might get an iPod, but I would definetly take a close look at other products. I have a sony net-MD which is very lovely and never used, but yeah apple's dominance in the mp3 player world can't last forever. the 'pod may have been an intresting design when it came out but it's not that great. It certanly isn't god's gift to man like some apple zelots seem to think.
posted by delmoi at 1:21 PM on January 20, 2005
kudos to Ethereal Bligh for his emergency injection of sanity to this discussion.
What do you call it when a single manufacturer's version of a single product that had existed from other manufacturers for years already suddenly explodes all around the world despite astronomical prices, seemingly intentional manufacturer's defects and a less-than-laudable ip protection policy?
Why, you call that a fad. Yes, it's mark will be born on all mp3 players to come and presumably the next generation of hip media devices, but the popularity of the ipod right now is largely fashion related. I own one myself and am going to replace it with an iriver product now that the battery can't hold a charge and other defects have made themselves apparent.
The walkman may have been the benchmark, but plenty of people owned rival products once the initial fascination with the walk/discman wore off.
posted by shmegegge at 1:23 PM on January 20, 2005
What do you call it when a single manufacturer's version of a single product that had existed from other manufacturers for years already suddenly explodes all around the world despite astronomical prices, seemingly intentional manufacturer's defects and a less-than-laudable ip protection policy?
Why, you call that a fad. Yes, it's mark will be born on all mp3 players to come and presumably the next generation of hip media devices, but the popularity of the ipod right now is largely fashion related. I own one myself and am going to replace it with an iriver product now that the battery can't hold a charge and other defects have made themselves apparent.
The walkman may have been the benchmark, but plenty of people owned rival products once the initial fascination with the walk/discman wore off.
posted by shmegegge at 1:23 PM on January 20, 2005
But $400 ??? iPod is overpriced. At $200 I might fork over the dough.
posted by adnanbwp at 4:17 PM EST on January 20
Where are you getting this from? I got my iPod 20GB for $300, and you can get an iPod Mini for $250. Not to mention the new one that the Dell CEO is responding to, the $100 iPod shuffle.
$400 for the 40-gig iPod, sure. But that's 40 GIGS of music in a tiny form factor...it's not exactly overpriced for what it is.
posted by cyrusdogstar at 1:24 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by adnanbwp at 4:17 PM EST on January 20
Where are you getting this from? I got my iPod 20GB for $300, and you can get an iPod Mini for $250. Not to mention the new one that the Dell CEO is responding to, the $100 iPod shuffle.
$400 for the 40-gig iPod, sure. But that's 40 GIGS of music in a tiny form factor...it's not exactly overpriced for what it is.
posted by cyrusdogstar at 1:24 PM on January 20, 2005
Apple's doing the right thing by releasing the Mac mini at the crest of the iPod wave. The low barrier to entry and microscopic footprint means a lot of people will be willing to get their feet wet who weren't before, and the iPod provides the exposure and the excuse to do it. It won't affect Windows market share at first, but there's a lot of dissatisfaction with Windows even from people who haven't tried OS X. Once they see it, they're really going to be pissed. If around Q3 Apple comes out with a more serious mini with a little less sticker shock than the current headless G5s, look for them to grab some real market share long term.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:33 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:33 PM on January 20, 2005
Make no mistake about it, Apple's higher ups pray to an undetermined force in the sky every night thankful for the unlikely ubiquity of the iPod.
It's a great product, sure. But the item ITSELF is what has garnered cachet among the masses. They are no longer buying a PRODUCT, they are buying a BRAND.
The more technical inclined might do research on several competing models and might see pros and cons but still choose an iPod for a legitimate reason. See uncleozzy above.
But my bet is the vast majority of iPod buyers buy the iPod specifically because it IS an iPod. I doubt your average iPod purchaser of late is very concerned about another device having 15% more storage space or 20% greater battery life.
You have people walking into electronics stores not asking for an MP3 player, they are specifically saying "I want an iPod".
That *IS* a fad. To say otherwise is to be ignorant of pop culture-driven consumer spending habits.
It just so happens to be a fad that also has a good quality product behind it.
I can support that.
On preview: "Hating Apple" is silly. But $400 is certainly too much smack.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:34 PM on January 20, 2005
It's a great product, sure. But the item ITSELF is what has garnered cachet among the masses. They are no longer buying a PRODUCT, they are buying a BRAND.
The more technical inclined might do research on several competing models and might see pros and cons but still choose an iPod for a legitimate reason. See uncleozzy above.
But my bet is the vast majority of iPod buyers buy the iPod specifically because it IS an iPod. I doubt your average iPod purchaser of late is very concerned about another device having 15% more storage space or 20% greater battery life.
You have people walking into electronics stores not asking for an MP3 player, they are specifically saying "I want an iPod".
That *IS* a fad. To say otherwise is to be ignorant of pop culture-driven consumer spending habits.
It just so happens to be a fad that also has a good quality product behind it.
I can support that.
On preview: "Hating Apple" is silly. But $400 is certainly too much smack.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:34 PM on January 20, 2005
I don't understand the attraction. In researching players, I didn't see what was special about the ipod, other than maybe its size. There are a ton of better, feature-rich players/recorders.
posted by fleener at 1:38 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by fleener at 1:38 PM on January 20, 2005
It's the purity of the design, the stainless steel back, the clicking sound the wheel makes when you roll your finger around it. The packaging is also a work of art in design and presentation ... in other words it's not the performance of the player itself does but everything else around it.
posted by terrier319 at 1:43 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by terrier319 at 1:43 PM on January 20, 2005
Well, HP's jumped on the iPod bandwagon. In any case, Apple is probably the only PC manufacturer with a design sense.
No one with a brain can argue that the iMac didn't revolutionize the look and feel general PC market (using plastics, and metal). Also, the Titanium series PowerBooks have infused the laptop market with shinier, slimmer, machines. Like 'em or hate 'em, they're definitely trendsetters as far as the appearance of modern computing machines. Even Creative has basically ripped off the general look of the iPod.
I personally can't see how people can make a general statement that the iPod is merely a fad. I see nothing in market trends to indicate anything pro or con. The only backlash from most folk regarding the iPod is from people who can't afford it, which in turn, makes it even more desirable to those who can...
That said, it could be that the iPod in its current incarnation is just a fad, only time will tell, but I'm sure that Apple will try to respond with a "cooler" design to whatever Creative or River will come up with.
Ya peeps don't need to Apple-hate just cuz youse ain't got the duckets for the warez.
posted by Debaser626 at 1:45 PM on January 20, 2005
No one with a brain can argue that the iMac didn't revolutionize the look and feel general PC market (using plastics, and metal). Also, the Titanium series PowerBooks have infused the laptop market with shinier, slimmer, machines. Like 'em or hate 'em, they're definitely trendsetters as far as the appearance of modern computing machines. Even Creative has basically ripped off the general look of the iPod.
I personally can't see how people can make a general statement that the iPod is merely a fad. I see nothing in market trends to indicate anything pro or con. The only backlash from most folk regarding the iPod is from people who can't afford it, which in turn, makes it even more desirable to those who can...
That said, it could be that the iPod in its current incarnation is just a fad, only time will tell, but I'm sure that Apple will try to respond with a "cooler" design to whatever Creative or River will come up with.
Ya peeps don't need to Apple-hate just cuz youse ain't got the duckets for the warez.
posted by Debaser626 at 1:45 PM on January 20, 2005
Fleener, your research needs to include customer satisfaction. A lot of MP3 players look better on paper but have unstable firmware, crappy Windows "special edition" software which is either crippled or ad-laden or both, nonexistent support, no-one else you know has them, and/or they're not intuitive. On preview, what terrier319 said. The ergonomics are wonderful. And I speak as someone converted after actually owning other MP3 players. The iPod is the only player I would by for a non-technically inclined friend or relative.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:47 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:47 PM on January 20, 2005
eWeek's Ian Betteridge has a good take on all the trollish remarks about Apple from around the industry.
It's a truism about the computer industry that when your competitors are talking in public about how they're not worried about you, they're doing a lot of worrying about you in private.
posted by effwerd at 1:48 PM on January 20, 2005
It's a truism about the computer industry that when your competitors are talking in public about how they're not worried about you, they're doing a lot of worrying about you in private.
posted by effwerd at 1:48 PM on January 20, 2005
Oh, and Ynoxas... While your logic is sound, I'm not sure if it applies to something that costs so much. Sure, with boy bands and yamaguchi key chains, which retail for under $20.. you have a definitive "fad." But the idea of dropping 400+ on an item will ensure that you keep it around for awhile. I equate it to saying Prada bags, or Armani suits are fad items. (though people will get the knockoffs if they can't afford the real deal)....
That said.. I'm happy with my crappy Archos... (mostly because it has a feature which lets you up the DBs by 100, drowning out any annoying kids or train preachers...)
Oh, and on preview... true enough for the laptops... trharlan... As for IBMs sturdier cases, I can attest to that... it's like Fort Knox in one of those machines...
posted by Debaser626 at 1:55 PM on January 20, 2005
That said.. I'm happy with my crappy Archos... (mostly because it has a feature which lets you up the DBs by 100, drowning out any annoying kids or train preachers...)
Oh, and on preview... true enough for the laptops... trharlan... As for IBMs sturdier cases, I can attest to that... it's like Fort Knox in one of those machines...
posted by Debaser626 at 1:55 PM on January 20, 2005
delmoi - "High quality, expensive and ugly. That's DELL"...??
You mean "low quality"? Dell used to build with good solid components, but they've started to suck lately. In my lab, we've had three hard drives die on new Dells in a matter of months. The case designs are not only ugly, but hard to work with - for example, I immediately remove the stupid curved cover over the CD drives so that the controls and lights built into the drives are functional rather than hidden. (When a system locks up while writing a CD, it's nice to be able to look at the drive LED to see if it is actually spinning, reading, or writing. That's sort of why those lights are there.)
Now had you said "high quality, expensive and aesthetically designed" you'd be describing Apple... but you'd have to also add in "Not intended to be worked on or upgraded by a mere mortal, please return to the Apple Store if you'd like to upgrade anything."
posted by caution live frogs at 1:59 PM on January 20, 2005
You mean "low quality"? Dell used to build with good solid components, but they've started to suck lately. In my lab, we've had three hard drives die on new Dells in a matter of months. The case designs are not only ugly, but hard to work with - for example, I immediately remove the stupid curved cover over the CD drives so that the controls and lights built into the drives are functional rather than hidden. (When a system locks up while writing a CD, it's nice to be able to look at the drive LED to see if it is actually spinning, reading, or writing. That's sort of why those lights are there.)
Now had you said "high quality, expensive and aesthetically designed" you'd be describing Apple... but you'd have to also add in "Not intended to be worked on or upgraded by a mere mortal, please return to the Apple Store if you'd like to upgrade anything."
posted by caution live frogs at 1:59 PM on January 20, 2005
I don't like Mac People. I don't like People Who Own iPods.
I like Mac people just fine. It's the evangelical macsterbation that gets to me. Sometimes an enthusiastic user base can be a company's worst enemy.
But I go back and forth on the iPod. It'd be great to have thousands of songs at my fingertips, but for the size I'd need, it's still to expensive. And since it is so expensive, I'd be skittish about carrying it around because I'd probably lose it or drop it and break it.
When was Dell ever even slightly "cool"? Dell doesn't even live on the same block as the cool kids who make original products. Not even in the same city. They're out in a suburban office park somewhere, taking the most marketable of the cool stuff and making crappy versions of it to sell to the people who don't know any better, just like they always have.
This is what's simultaneously brilliant and obnoxious about the AppleNation. They're selling and buying an image of "cool," as much as they are a product. Neal Stephenson expounds on this at legnth in In The Beginning Was The Command Line.
posted by jonmc at 2:00 PM on January 20, 2005
I like Mac people just fine. It's the evangelical macsterbation that gets to me. Sometimes an enthusiastic user base can be a company's worst enemy.
But I go back and forth on the iPod. It'd be great to have thousands of songs at my fingertips, but for the size I'd need, it's still to expensive. And since it is so expensive, I'd be skittish about carrying it around because I'd probably lose it or drop it and break it.
When was Dell ever even slightly "cool"? Dell doesn't even live on the same block as the cool kids who make original products. Not even in the same city. They're out in a suburban office park somewhere, taking the most marketable of the cool stuff and making crappy versions of it to sell to the people who don't know any better, just like they always have.
This is what's simultaneously brilliant and obnoxious about the AppleNation. They're selling and buying an image of "cool," as much as they are a product. Neal Stephenson expounds on this at legnth in In The Beginning Was The Command Line.
posted by jonmc at 2:00 PM on January 20, 2005
this almost leaves me speechless. i can't even figure out what this guy is getting at. the walkman was a fad? sony is a one-product wonder? the ipod is a fad because it took three years to catch on?
apple popularized a product that more and more of those who can afford it consider a necessity of life - the portable digital audio player. yes people will buy more affordable and differently featured brands in the future, but i think the key question is: in ten years, will more people have a DAP or less?
posted by nequalsone at 2:06 PM on January 20, 2005
apple popularized a product that more and more of those who can afford it consider a necessity of life - the portable digital audio player. yes people will buy more affordable and differently featured brands in the future, but i think the key question is: in ten years, will more people have a DAP or less?
posted by nequalsone at 2:06 PM on January 20, 2005
Another thing not being mentioned in this thread is the superior sound quality of the AAC format.
I bought a 20 gig Dell DJ early last year because the price was right ($218 for a refurbished model, compared to $400 for a 20 gig iPod at the time), and because it has a good 18 hours of battery life (compared to 8 for the iPod at the time).
I wish I had saved my money and waited a couple months; Apple slashed the prices on their 20 and 40 gig models by $100 each and upped the battery life by 4 hours (increasing it to twelve).
My Dell DJ is a trusty gadget that gets the job done, but I really, really still want an iPod. The quality of AAC format compared to MP3 makes me want to cry. And I love all the things that iTunes alllows you to do, such as keep track of how many times you've listened to a track, rate each track, etc. Nothing on the DJ allows you to do that.
So with iPods, it's not just the fashionplate aspect that makes them desirable (in fact, the Dell DJ has a cool blue light and a nice solid feel to it that I think I would miss in an iPod). It's the superior sound quality and music management software.
posted by spacewaitress at 2:09 PM on January 20, 2005
I bought a 20 gig Dell DJ early last year because the price was right ($218 for a refurbished model, compared to $400 for a 20 gig iPod at the time), and because it has a good 18 hours of battery life (compared to 8 for the iPod at the time).
I wish I had saved my money and waited a couple months; Apple slashed the prices on their 20 and 40 gig models by $100 each and upped the battery life by 4 hours (increasing it to twelve).
My Dell DJ is a trusty gadget that gets the job done, but I really, really still want an iPod. The quality of AAC format compared to MP3 makes me want to cry. And I love all the things that iTunes alllows you to do, such as keep track of how many times you've listened to a track, rate each track, etc. Nothing on the DJ allows you to do that.
So with iPods, it's not just the fashionplate aspect that makes them desirable (in fact, the Dell DJ has a cool blue light and a nice solid feel to it that I think I would miss in an iPod). It's the superior sound quality and music management software.
posted by spacewaitress at 2:09 PM on January 20, 2005
I have a first-gen 10GB iPod. It's almost 3 years old. It has functioned flawlessly and I take it everywhere with me. I now have more tunes than will fit on it (but not many more), and I use iTunes Smart Playlists to swap stuff out from time to time. It's been super-easy to use and totally reliable, though I'm noticing the battery life is finally starting to decline.
If it was such a "fad" thing, I probably wouldn't still be using this same kinda scratched up iPod. Mind you I drive a 20-year old car, because it's totally reliable...
As a "fashion statement" the iPod may be a fad, but as a great bit of consumer electronics it's a breakthrough, just like the Walkman was. Maybe Mike doesn't remember that the first cassette Walkmen came out in the early 80's, and the iPod is its evolution. People are not wearing Walkmen now so much because cassettes are rare and CDs are out of favor for portable music. Now the physical media is unnecessary; other players like the Rio blazed the trail, and the iPod really brought the non-physical-media personal stereo into its own. Everything else is a copy (and eventual improvement) of that from here on out, just as every vinyl record album was a copy (and improvement) on Edison's wax cylinders.
I think it's sour grapes too. Dell's innovations were in business methods and production processes, not new technology. He's got nothing to be ashamed of in that respect. I've bought nothing but Dell PCs since 1990, along with my Macs, because they've been excellent and reliable for me. He should just worry about keeping on making good hardware (if unlovely), and not risk tons of money trying to compete with someone who's playing a different game from him.
posted by zoogleplex at 2:17 PM on January 20, 2005
If it was such a "fad" thing, I probably wouldn't still be using this same kinda scratched up iPod. Mind you I drive a 20-year old car, because it's totally reliable...
As a "fashion statement" the iPod may be a fad, but as a great bit of consumer electronics it's a breakthrough, just like the Walkman was. Maybe Mike doesn't remember that the first cassette Walkmen came out in the early 80's, and the iPod is its evolution. People are not wearing Walkmen now so much because cassettes are rare and CDs are out of favor for portable music. Now the physical media is unnecessary; other players like the Rio blazed the trail, and the iPod really brought the non-physical-media personal stereo into its own. Everything else is a copy (and eventual improvement) of that from here on out, just as every vinyl record album was a copy (and improvement) on Edison's wax cylinders.
I think it's sour grapes too. Dell's innovations were in business methods and production processes, not new technology. He's got nothing to be ashamed of in that respect. I've bought nothing but Dell PCs since 1990, along with my Macs, because they've been excellent and reliable for me. He should just worry about keeping on making good hardware (if unlovely), and not risk tons of money trying to compete with someone who's playing a different game from him.
posted by zoogleplex at 2:17 PM on January 20, 2005
Actually, my main problem with the iPod is its software support. Apple gave in to DRM, and I'm not going to support that. Apple has shown absolutely no interest in supporting free, royalty-free formats like ogg, which 60% of my music is in. Apple also has a tendency to clamp down hard on any inventive use of its products, so I'm afraid of getting something that will delete my entire music collection whenever apple feels pressured to do so by the recording industry. An important thing to consider is what you actually need a media player for. I needed a media player with a large hard drive to listen to while driving, and for storing my extensive music collection in one place. It had to be durable and flexible.
So, I picked up a Neuros for $100 less than a comparably sized ipod, at the time. The one I bought has a removable hard drive, and without it is slightly bigger than an iPod. With it, it's a damn brick, but who cares about that when its sitting on my desk or in my car? It also works as an excellent voice recorder, radio transmitter, and general use external usb hard drive. Also, every single aspect of the device is open, and there are efforts to get it to play any media you can think of. They even released the hardware specifications, in case someone wants to build a plant for manufacturing clone hardware. They release very frequent firmware updates, and the open source community throws out even more. They're really responsive to customers and I love their philosophy.
Anyway, the point of that was to show that the iPod is great for what it does, but everyone who thinks they need an iPod more than likely doesn't. Shop around, and get what works best for you. And, if you end up buying an iPod because you wish to be associated with other iPod buyers, make this obvious so I'll know to avoid you at parties :) On the other hand, if the iPod makes the most sense for you personally, go for it! Just be aware that you're helping to support the RIAA, the DMCA, and all those other acronyms you hear about occasionally.
posted by JZig at 2:19 PM on January 20, 2005
So, I picked up a Neuros for $100 less than a comparably sized ipod, at the time. The one I bought has a removable hard drive, and without it is slightly bigger than an iPod. With it, it's a damn brick, but who cares about that when its sitting on my desk or in my car? It also works as an excellent voice recorder, radio transmitter, and general use external usb hard drive. Also, every single aspect of the device is open, and there are efforts to get it to play any media you can think of. They even released the hardware specifications, in case someone wants to build a plant for manufacturing clone hardware. They release very frequent firmware updates, and the open source community throws out even more. They're really responsive to customers and I love their philosophy.
Anyway, the point of that was to show that the iPod is great for what it does, but everyone who thinks they need an iPod more than likely doesn't. Shop around, and get what works best for you. And, if you end up buying an iPod because you wish to be associated with other iPod buyers, make this obvious so I'll know to avoid you at parties :) On the other hand, if the iPod makes the most sense for you personally, go for it! Just be aware that you're helping to support the RIAA, the DMCA, and all those other acronyms you hear about occasionally.
posted by JZig at 2:19 PM on January 20, 2005
Oh, and we can argue about audio formats for years, but in general Ogg comes out far above mp3 in quality/size, and is pretty much equal to aac, minus the drm crap. The neuros has a built in itunes-like thing, but I dont like it, so I just use it like a USB hard drive and use an open-source java program to rebuild the database when needed. I prefer this flexibility over the tight integration with itunes, a piece of software I heavily dislike.
posted by JZig at 2:23 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by JZig at 2:23 PM on January 20, 2005
If a product that has changed the way we listen to music is a fad, well then so be it.
posted by ORthey at 2:27 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by ORthey at 2:27 PM on January 20, 2005
today's stock market on Dell
YTD %Change: -4.94
on apple
YTD %Change: 8
'nuf said...
posted by HuronBob at 2:37 PM on January 20, 2005
YTD %Change: -4.94
on apple
YTD %Change: 8
'nuf said...
posted by HuronBob at 2:37 PM on January 20, 2005
Another thing not being mentioned in this thread is the superior sound quality of the AAC format.
That kinda depends on the bitrate/encoder you're using, though. This iPodlounge thread seems to suggest mp3 with the LAME encoder and --alt-preset-standard or --alt-preset-extreme settings is good enough. On the other hand, Mark Hjildgers' tests suggest AAC is better. Personally, I'd rather have my music encoded in the most portable format, even if I'm losing a bit of sound quality, but that's a tradeoff you'd need to decide for yourself.
I'm definitely hearing you WRT the software aspect, though. I've got an RCA Lyra 40gb as my portable player, and the main thing I miss from using iTunes on my desktop is the smart playlists.
Anyway, it seems obvious that Apple's position as market leader isn't gonna last forever, but they're not gonna go away anytime soon, either.
posted by arto at 2:46 PM on January 20, 2005
That kinda depends on the bitrate/encoder you're using, though. This iPodlounge thread seems to suggest mp3 with the LAME encoder and --alt-preset-standard or --alt-preset-extreme settings is good enough. On the other hand, Mark Hjildgers' tests suggest AAC is better. Personally, I'd rather have my music encoded in the most portable format, even if I'm losing a bit of sound quality, but that's a tradeoff you'd need to decide for yourself.
I'm definitely hearing you WRT the software aspect, though. I've got an RCA Lyra 40gb as my portable player, and the main thing I miss from using iTunes on my desktop is the smart playlists.
Anyway, it seems obvious that Apple's position as market leader isn't gonna last forever, but they're not gonna go away anytime soon, either.
posted by arto at 2:46 PM on January 20, 2005
JZig - As far as I understand it, buying *any* music helps support the RIAA, really. It's not an iPod exclusive thing. If you're ripping your CDs into ogg format, or bought the music through another online store, you still bought them and helped prop up the evil music industry, blah blah blah.
Neuros seems like a nice idea, but (a) couldn't see any Mac drivers, (b) I like the way iTunes works, and wouldn't want to fart around with open-source java stuff just to get a playlist together, and (c) sue me, but it's looks a bit plasticky and naff. I don't buy things purely based on looks, but I'm not going to go out of my way to buy something ugly...
posted by ralphyk at 2:47 PM on January 20, 2005
Neuros seems like a nice idea, but (a) couldn't see any Mac drivers, (b) I like the way iTunes works, and wouldn't want to fart around with open-source java stuff just to get a playlist together, and (c) sue me, but it's looks a bit plasticky and naff. I don't buy things purely based on looks, but I'm not going to go out of my way to buy something ugly...
posted by ralphyk at 2:47 PM on January 20, 2005
interface, usability, design.
as far as dell and creative and the rest getting involved in this business, they'll have to get these things right on a par with the ipod.
i had a creative muvo and was distinctly unhappy with its firmware (not software, FIRMware...) which does not allow for song arrangements, commonly known as PLAYLISTS. in other words, you have to play the tracks alphanumerically ordered. a call to customer service established that "there will be no firmware updates scheduled" for the product.
ugh. what a bunch of fringed-out geeks.
posted by gorgor_balabala at 3:04 PM on January 20, 2005
as far as dell and creative and the rest getting involved in this business, they'll have to get these things right on a par with the ipod.
i had a creative muvo and was distinctly unhappy with its firmware (not software, FIRMware...) which does not allow for song arrangements, commonly known as PLAYLISTS. in other words, you have to play the tracks alphanumerically ordered. a call to customer service established that "there will be no firmware updates scheduled" for the product.
ugh. what a bunch of fringed-out geeks.
posted by gorgor_balabala at 3:04 PM on January 20, 2005
Just be aware that you're helping to support the RIAA, the DMCA (...) I'm afraid of getting something that will delete my entire music collection whenever apple feels pressured to do so by the recording industry.
The only DRM on AAC files are the ones you buy from the ITMS. There is no DRM on any AAC files you rip from CD. It's a good sounding format (I'm not mr. goldenears, but I hear okay, and I've A/B'd 160 k AAC files with the orig. and a difference is very hard to discern) and I've got about 30 gig worth of CDs ripped as AAC files on my computer right now. I don't see how Apple could legally "delete" these one day. That's tin-foil hat territory.
If you don't want to support the RIAA, then buy your music from independent labels and artists. What format it comes in has little to do with where the royalties go. Lots of independents on the ITMS these days.
Oh, and I love my iPod. More than I thought I would when I bought the thing.
posted by Devils Rancher at 3:07 PM on January 20, 2005
The only DRM on AAC files are the ones you buy from the ITMS. There is no DRM on any AAC files you rip from CD. It's a good sounding format (I'm not mr. goldenears, but I hear okay, and I've A/B'd 160 k AAC files with the orig. and a difference is very hard to discern) and I've got about 30 gig worth of CDs ripped as AAC files on my computer right now. I don't see how Apple could legally "delete" these one day. That's tin-foil hat territory.
If you don't want to support the RIAA, then buy your music from independent labels and artists. What format it comes in has little to do with where the royalties go. Lots of independents on the ITMS these days.
Oh, and I love my iPod. More than I thought I would when I bought the thing.
posted by Devils Rancher at 3:07 PM on January 20, 2005
From the article:
"Well those things that become fads rage and then they drop off... I believe that one product wonders come and go. You have to have sustainable business models, sustainable strategy." ...
Dell recently extended its foray into the consumer market with its own music download service to go with its own MP3 player
Must be one of those have-to-get-in-on-it fads.
posted by fleacircus at 3:23 PM on January 20, 2005
"Well those things that become fads rage and then they drop off... I believe that one product wonders come and go. You have to have sustainable business models, sustainable strategy." ...
Dell recently extended its foray into the consumer market with its own music download service to go with its own MP3 player
Must be one of those have-to-get-in-on-it fads.
posted by fleacircus at 3:23 PM on January 20, 2005
Rollins is obviously correct about the iPod. Apple is not Sony (an enormous multinational consumer electronics manufacturer with a huge range of products) and Apple is not Dell (the world's largest computer manufacturer and retailer, able to outcompete on the much larger near-commodity market at every level).
I don't see how Apple not being Sony (hamstrung in the consumer electronics arena because of its ownership of Sony Music and Sony Pictures) or Dell (which has provided absolutely no product innovation) makes Rollins correct about the iPod. The iPod is successful where Sony and Dell players aren't, in part because of the deficiencies that Sony and Dell bring to this specific market. I predict that the iPod will continue to be successful until the advent of equivalent storage space on solid-state media, at which point playing music will become just another standard feature of your PDA/phone - these can do this now, but who cares when you're lucky to be able to put 1 GB of storage into them.
I don't understand the attraction. In researching players, I didn't see what was special about the ipod, other than maybe its size. There are a ton of better, feature-rich players/recorders.
I've gone through quite a few MP3 players over the years, and my feeling is that the iPod is quite a bit better than the others for reasons that don't always come across well in comparative reviews. The form factor and ease of use are much better than most hard-disk players I've seen.
In any case, Apple is probably the only PC manufacturer with a design sense.
Not quite. Sony PCs often sport unique designs. I'm using a Vaio U70 - there's nothing comparable to this on the Mac side of the fence.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:37 PM on January 20, 2005
I don't see how Apple not being Sony (hamstrung in the consumer electronics arena because of its ownership of Sony Music and Sony Pictures) or Dell (which has provided absolutely no product innovation) makes Rollins correct about the iPod. The iPod is successful where Sony and Dell players aren't, in part because of the deficiencies that Sony and Dell bring to this specific market. I predict that the iPod will continue to be successful until the advent of equivalent storage space on solid-state media, at which point playing music will become just another standard feature of your PDA/phone - these can do this now, but who cares when you're lucky to be able to put 1 GB of storage into them.
I don't understand the attraction. In researching players, I didn't see what was special about the ipod, other than maybe its size. There are a ton of better, feature-rich players/recorders.
I've gone through quite a few MP3 players over the years, and my feeling is that the iPod is quite a bit better than the others for reasons that don't always come across well in comparative reviews. The form factor and ease of use are much better than most hard-disk players I've seen.
In any case, Apple is probably the only PC manufacturer with a design sense.
Not quite. Sony PCs often sport unique designs. I'm using a Vaio U70 - there's nothing comparable to this on the Mac side of the fence.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:37 PM on January 20, 2005
If a product that has changed the way we listen to music is a fad, well then so be it.
har. the iPod was hardly the first portable digital player (i think i had a 32MB Rio?), and until a digital format is standardized by the industry, ain't nobody gonna dominate the market for long.
disclaimer: i got a 20GB Lyra for under $200.
my decision-making process.
flexibility: i wanted to be able to use it as a hard drive on as many machines as i wanted, both Mac and PC. i wasn't sure i could do that with an iPod (up to 5 machines?), and i had heard bad stories about losing collections when syncing iPods with other machines.
drive size: i have way more than 40GB of music already digitized, and i also have lots of LPs and CDs that i'd like to rip in the future, so i wasn't too concerned about hard-drive space. 20GB is plenty of music for a portable, i think.
accessories: the Lyra came with FM radio built-in (which i wanted, embarrassingly), plus a bunch of cords (both car adapters, and RCA adapter (and of course USB2)), all included.
i don't regret my decision, but the firmware on the Lyra is kinda weak. it crashes every now and then, mostly when using the car-cigarette-lighter power adapter.
30-second review: the file structure is fine, M3U playlists work great, sound is pretty good. syncing is fast and easy, though slightly unreliable on the Mac. the big kicker is that it *only* plays MP3 files, which could negate the "sound is pretty good" comment for many but it's fine for me. it's also a great external drive.
anyway, i agree with the comments about the bad writing in the article. seemed sensationalistic, when the CEO's comments might not have been.
i think it's bad form that the headline quote, "one-product wonder," is not placed in context by the article. fwiw, Dell sux.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:50 PM on January 20, 2005
har. the iPod was hardly the first portable digital player (i think i had a 32MB Rio?), and until a digital format is standardized by the industry, ain't nobody gonna dominate the market for long.
disclaimer: i got a 20GB Lyra for under $200.
my decision-making process.
flexibility: i wanted to be able to use it as a hard drive on as many machines as i wanted, both Mac and PC. i wasn't sure i could do that with an iPod (up to 5 machines?), and i had heard bad stories about losing collections when syncing iPods with other machines.
drive size: i have way more than 40GB of music already digitized, and i also have lots of LPs and CDs that i'd like to rip in the future, so i wasn't too concerned about hard-drive space. 20GB is plenty of music for a portable, i think.
accessories: the Lyra came with FM radio built-in (which i wanted, embarrassingly), plus a bunch of cords (both car adapters, and RCA adapter (and of course USB2)), all included.
i don't regret my decision, but the firmware on the Lyra is kinda weak. it crashes every now and then, mostly when using the car-cigarette-lighter power adapter.
30-second review: the file structure is fine, M3U playlists work great, sound is pretty good. syncing is fast and easy, though slightly unreliable on the Mac. the big kicker is that it *only* plays MP3 files, which could negate the "sound is pretty good" comment for many but it's fine for me. it's also a great external drive.
anyway, i agree with the comments about the bad writing in the article. seemed sensationalistic, when the CEO's comments might not have been.
i think it's bad form that the headline quote, "one-product wonder," is not placed in context by the article. fwiw, Dell sux.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:50 PM on January 20, 2005
I don't like ipods, they're uber cheesy looking (they're made to be seen, strobe white doesn't blend in with any clothing, like as if their obnoxious advertising placement wasn't enough) and greatly overpriced.
There I said it.
-goes back to cheap chinese knockoff Mp3 player with FM radio/voice recording/usb drive capable and 5 gigs of compact HD space, no bigger than my extended middle finger...
And to simpsons quoth the officially sanctioned celebrity ipod pushers - U2:
wankers.
posted by JGreyNemo at 4:16 PM on January 20, 2005
There I said it.
-goes back to cheap chinese knockoff Mp3 player with FM radio/voice recording/usb drive capable and 5 gigs of compact HD space, no bigger than my extended middle finger...
And to simpsons quoth the officially sanctioned celebrity ipod pushers - U2:
wankers.
posted by JGreyNemo at 4:16 PM on January 20, 2005
I don't rip my tunes to AAC, I rip them to MP3 196k. The sound quality is fine for how I listen, and there's no DRM on them. I haven't really bought many tunes from iTunes, and since I only listen to them on my iPod or at my house on the Mac anyway, it doesn't make any difference that they do have DRM anyway.
I also don't listen to radio anymore, I don't need to record voice, I don't need USB drive connectivity with my iPod, so none of that applies to my situation.
The system works for me, wonderfully, and I think that's what Apple was going for. They've very rarely let me down, far far more rarely than any PC-related product, and that's why I stick with them.
posted by zoogleplex at 4:30 PM on January 20, 2005
I also don't listen to radio anymore, I don't need to record voice, I don't need USB drive connectivity with my iPod, so none of that applies to my situation.
The system works for me, wonderfully, and I think that's what Apple was going for. They've very rarely let me down, far far more rarely than any PC-related product, and that's why I stick with them.
posted by zoogleplex at 4:30 PM on January 20, 2005
ralphyk: The neuros doesnt really need drivers. It's a usb hard drive that works out of the box in linux and mac. For a cross platform java client, get the Neuros Database Manipulator. For the other 2 points, yeah, it sounds like an iPod is great for you. If you prefer the aesthetics of the iPod, I have no problem with that. People who buy things just to fit in annoy me, but anyone who actually weighs the alternatives and picks an iPod is just exercising good judgement.
posted by JZig at 4:36 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by JZig at 4:36 PM on January 20, 2005
HEY! Wait just a second here!
I work for that guy. Plus, it was Kev talkin. Get it right next time.
posted by PuppyCat at 4:47 PM on January 20, 2005
I work for that guy. Plus, it was Kev talkin. Get it right next time.
posted by PuppyCat at 4:47 PM on January 20, 2005
So can we just say people use what they want to use because they like using them?
I get worked up because I am so sick and tired of people telling me iPods are better and far more superior because blah blah and so and so. I like my knockoff. People should stop telling me my knockoff is bad. It makes me want to kick them in the neck. They're not better. They're just another piece of plastic and metal in an eternally long range of pieces of plastic and metal that have no real purpose other than to deliver an audio stream into our ear canal. That is all. There was nothing really innovative about the iPod, in the way of mp3 players before it. People seem think so, but that just isn't the case. They are not the consumer-based saviour of the human race...
In fact during this rant I've figured out what actually annoys me about iPods, it's not iPod users per se. Or even the iPods themselves.
It's their marketing campaign, and people who believe their marketing campaign. People and the media love to say that the Ipod itself is a symbol of today's youth, what kind of symbol is that exactly? What revolution of mediocrity did the iPod inspire? Please let me know because the post-it memo fell off my fridge while I was out and about iPodless and disconnected from society.
Shmucks are they all.
posted by JGreyNemo at 5:03 PM on January 20, 2005
I get worked up because I am so sick and tired of people telling me iPods are better and far more superior because blah blah and so and so. I like my knockoff. People should stop telling me my knockoff is bad. It makes me want to kick them in the neck. They're not better. They're just another piece of plastic and metal in an eternally long range of pieces of plastic and metal that have no real purpose other than to deliver an audio stream into our ear canal. That is all. There was nothing really innovative about the iPod, in the way of mp3 players before it. People seem think so, but that just isn't the case. They are not the consumer-based saviour of the human race...
In fact during this rant I've figured out what actually annoys me about iPods, it's not iPod users per se. Or even the iPods themselves.
It's their marketing campaign, and people who believe their marketing campaign. People and the media love to say that the Ipod itself is a symbol of today's youth, what kind of symbol is that exactly? What revolution of mediocrity did the iPod inspire? Please let me know because the post-it memo fell off my fridge while I was out and about iPodless and disconnected from society.
Shmucks are they all.
posted by JGreyNemo at 5:03 PM on January 20, 2005
Just to clarify, zoogleplex, AAC files that are ripped into iTunes aren't DRM'd, but the AAC files purchased from the iTunes Music Store are.
posted by esd at 5:14 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by esd at 5:14 PM on January 20, 2005
I have yet to purchase an iPod yet, but I may do so in the next several months now that the price-point has dropped substantially. I can pick up a 20gb iPod for under $400 Canadian right now, which is pretty reasonable.
I'm really curious how an iPod qualifies as a one-product wonder though. First of all, it's an Apple product and they're clearly not a one-product-wonder company. Secondly, there have been various incarnations of the iPod, all successful. So what's the contention here? Simply that it's a fad?
posted by The God Complex at 5:31 PM on January 20, 2005
I'm really curious how an iPod qualifies as a one-product wonder though. First of all, it's an Apple product and they're clearly not a one-product-wonder company. Secondly, there have been various incarnations of the iPod, all successful. So what's the contention here? Simply that it's a fad?
posted by The God Complex at 5:31 PM on January 20, 2005
(strike a 'yet', but never a yeti)
posted by The God Complex at 5:32 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by The God Complex at 5:32 PM on January 20, 2005
When will they learn.
Ipod is to suxor. Archos is to roxor.
Toms hardware agrees.
posted by sourbrew at 5:49 PM on January 20, 2005
Ipod is to suxor. Archos is to roxor.
Toms hardware agrees.
posted by sourbrew at 5:49 PM on January 20, 2005
I like the Creative Muvo TX. If I should happen to drop it, it still works, and it doesnt need a 'designer sock' to keep it from getting scratched. It's 512 mb's and my brother accidentally washed his, let it dry before turning it on, and it still worked.
I've seen people jostle and iPod the wrong way and it'll throw a fit. I'm just not cut out for a spinning harddrive based media player. Besides, with rechargeable triple A's, I get WAY better battery life...
posted by nile_red at 6:48 PM on January 20, 2005
I've seen people jostle and iPod the wrong way and it'll throw a fit. I'm just not cut out for a spinning harddrive based media player. Besides, with rechargeable triple A's, I get WAY better battery life...
posted by nile_red at 6:48 PM on January 20, 2005
True story. So I had beers once with a bunch of people and Michael Dell was one of them. This was back in the day (1992 or 3) when Dell was just getting huge. He seemed shy and backwards but said some things about a female friend of mine that made me think that he was a humorless asshole. And then, later on, when he discovered I was my college's stident Apple representative he wouldn't shup up about how Apple sucked and only losers used Macs, etc. He sat beside me so that he could hammer this point in. Point is this, not only is the guy a dick in real life, he is utterly transparent in his insecurities and this statement is an obvious case in point. The Dell jukebox is a lot of things, but it isn't a better device than the iPod. It is ugly, difficult to use and UGLY and Dell knows it, too.
posted by n9 at 7:06 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by n9 at 7:06 PM on January 20, 2005
No offense to the Apple fans out there, since I believe in freedom of choice, but why is it that people who ordinarily object stridently to rampant consumerism and the over-branding of society seem to throw that all out the window when it comes to this particular company?
posted by jonmc at 7:31 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by jonmc at 7:31 PM on January 20, 2005
As a former Dell Employee, and husband to a current Dell Employee, and son-in-law to a former Dell Employee, and brother-in-law to a former Dell Employee, let me just say this:
Fuck Dell.
Good computers, shitty job, shitty, shitty, shitty owner.
And if you want to talk about flash-in-the-pan products, I remember when we started selling the WebPC. A more worthless hunk of junk I cannot imagine.
I have nothing useful to say. Move along.
posted by papakwanz at 7:38 PM on January 20, 2005
Fuck Dell.
Good computers, shitty job, shitty, shitty, shitty owner.
And if you want to talk about flash-in-the-pan products, I remember when we started selling the WebPC. A more worthless hunk of junk I cannot imagine.
I have nothing useful to say. Move along.
posted by papakwanz at 7:38 PM on January 20, 2005
I hear far more of this bandwagon anti-ipod stuff now than people "bashing folks for their knockoffs." Well, except for me, 'cause I had a rio flash player and it was a piece of shit.
It's a fucking music player, buying 'cause it's cool or fashionable or neat or pretty is a perfectly good reason to buy it. It's an object of pleasure no more.
I bought a dell a few months ago. There's little in the experience of owning and operating one that makes you say, "ahh, that's nice." It was pleasant to add a new hard drive- the case opened up, there were rails extra rails that came out and then slid it back it, but isn't it telling that before I saw anything I'd appreciate as a nice design I had to open it up? (I just found the front-mounted usb ports. They're invisible if you put your computer on the floor. Yeah, Dell rocks, Apple sucks, fersure.)
I was a CS grad student for umpteen years & now I'm at the sw co. I know a lot of people who hate the ipod, and they're all basically (whether or not they know it) uber geeks who'd really in their heart of hearts like to use the same version control system they use at work to sync their portable player. Good for them, really, but they're not going to get rich designing consumer electronics.
Most of the criticism of the ipod sounds like "Why would you pay $100 for those pants, when my pants are cheaper and have more pockets?" So, it's expensive, whatever, plenty of people can afford it. Do you really think that you're so smart and I'm so stupid that you could make me happier by replacing my ipod with a creative and giving me $100?
posted by Wood at 9:15 PM on January 20, 2005
It's a fucking music player, buying 'cause it's cool or fashionable or neat or pretty is a perfectly good reason to buy it. It's an object of pleasure no more.
I bought a dell a few months ago. There's little in the experience of owning and operating one that makes you say, "ahh, that's nice." It was pleasant to add a new hard drive- the case opened up, there were rails extra rails that came out and then slid it back it, but isn't it telling that before I saw anything I'd appreciate as a nice design I had to open it up? (I just found the front-mounted usb ports. They're invisible if you put your computer on the floor. Yeah, Dell rocks, Apple sucks, fersure.)
I was a CS grad student for umpteen years & now I'm at the sw co. I know a lot of people who hate the ipod, and they're all basically (whether or not they know it) uber geeks who'd really in their heart of hearts like to use the same version control system they use at work to sync their portable player. Good for them, really, but they're not going to get rich designing consumer electronics.
Most of the criticism of the ipod sounds like "Why would you pay $100 for those pants, when my pants are cheaper and have more pockets?" So, it's expensive, whatever, plenty of people can afford it. Do you really think that you're so smart and I'm so stupid that you could make me happier by replacing my ipod with a creative and giving me $100?
posted by Wood at 9:15 PM on January 20, 2005
It wasn't Michael Dell quoted in the article, n9.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:18 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:18 PM on January 20, 2005
artor
The iPodlounge thread seems to reccomend AAC, not LAME:
AAC 128 vs. MP3 LAME extreme
I could not reliably differentiate between the two. This is a good thing, as I know I can now double my song storage space with comparable quality. Goodbye MP3 LAME, hello AAC!
And this is one of those things that bugs me about misinformation regarding Apple and music - AAC files do not have DRM on them unless you purchase them from the iTunes music store.
AAC files ripped from your own CDs have no DRM. This means the folks who complain abut AAC files having DRM and then champion ogg or some other format on that basis are comparing apples to oranges - any online music store that sells songs released by major labels sells files with DRM on them, so the comparison ought to be between files sold by varying online music stores. Compared with other online music stores, Apple's DRM allows users more control than its competitors - you can authorize up to 5 computers to play the file; you can burn to CD as many times as you want, etc.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:58 AM on January 21, 2005
The iPodlounge thread seems to reccomend AAC, not LAME:
AAC 128 vs. MP3 LAME extreme
I could not reliably differentiate between the two. This is a good thing, as I know I can now double my song storage space with comparable quality. Goodbye MP3 LAME, hello AAC!
And this is one of those things that bugs me about misinformation regarding Apple and music - AAC files do not have DRM on them unless you purchase them from the iTunes music store.
AAC files ripped from your own CDs have no DRM. This means the folks who complain abut AAC files having DRM and then champion ogg or some other format on that basis are comparing apples to oranges - any online music store that sells songs released by major labels sells files with DRM on them, so the comparison ought to be between files sold by varying online music stores. Compared with other online music stores, Apple's DRM allows users more control than its competitors - you can authorize up to 5 computers to play the file; you can burn to CD as many times as you want, etc.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:58 AM on January 21, 2005
This iPodlounge thread seems to suggest mp3 with the LAME encoder and --alt-preset-standard or --alt-preset-extreme settings is good enough.
Good enough for what? After buying my Dell DJ, I really wanted to believe that MP3 was good enough, but after ripping several songs of different styles and comparing them on my PC with headphones, I can easily discern a difference in quality between MP3 and AAC at the same bitrate. AAC sounds great. Maybe I have sensitive ears, but I want my music to sound like *music,* not a simulacrum of a song. MP3 is good enough in most respects, but knowing that a better format exists, I feel dissatisfied.
posted by spacewaitress at 7:57 AM on January 21, 2005
Good enough for what? After buying my Dell DJ, I really wanted to believe that MP3 was good enough, but after ripping several songs of different styles and comparing them on my PC with headphones, I can easily discern a difference in quality between MP3 and AAC at the same bitrate. AAC sounds great. Maybe I have sensitive ears, but I want my music to sound like *music,* not a simulacrum of a song. MP3 is good enough in most respects, but knowing that a better format exists, I feel dissatisfied.
posted by spacewaitress at 7:57 AM on January 21, 2005
These days, we're lucky enough to have magic boxes that allow us to carry around hundreds, if not thousands, of songs in our pockets. And we're nitpicking about bitrates and file formats? Not that we should settle for anything less than what we're personally satisfied...but, boy, we're spoiled these days, aren't we? ; )
/cranky old man
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:49 AM on January 21, 2005
/cranky old man
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:49 AM on January 21, 2005
Personally satisfied with, that is.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:50 AM on January 21, 2005
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:50 AM on January 21, 2005
jonmc: "No offense to the Apple fans out there, since I believe in freedom of choice, but why is it that people who ordinarily object stridently to rampant consumerism and the over-branding of society seem to throw that all out the window when it comes to this particular company?"
In this case I can only speak for myself: I am an Apple fan (and sometimes evangelist) because for me personally, the stuff just works right the first time and the hardware and software don't have problems that get in the way of whatever task I'm trying to use them for.
So, as a "transparent" tool, they've been more effective for me.
By the way, that same applies to all my Dell PCs - within the PC platform arena, they have been the best by far of any brand of PC I've used. But they're not as transparent as the Macs - probably mostly because of Windows and not the Dell hardware.
So far I've bought 2 Macs and 3 Dell PCs (and no other brands at all, I've used other brands at work etc.) over the past 15 years. Both have worked excellently for me. I have used both intensively for creative tasks "traditionally" considered to be Mac tasks: graphics, illustration, pre-press, music production
I would have to consider myself a "power user" on both platforms; if there is a highly technical problem on either, I can solve it. The thing is, the number of such problems on the Mac platform compared to the PC platform, in that 15 years of experience, is negligible - even given that I rarely have trouble with my Dell PCs, far less problems than any of my PC-only friends.
That's where I'm coming from, jonmc. I've used both platforms, well, since 1984 - I still have the MacPaint files of the first art I ever did on a Mac SE in b/w, in fact. The Mac has just consistently been better to use.
I'm not a mad proselytizer tho. Use what you want! I would suggest however that many people would be more productive and overall happier with their computer experience on a Mac.
btw, yes I know that only iTunes AACs are DRM'ed. I choose to stick with MP3 files for my personal rips, even though AAC is superior-sounding, to stay with an open standard that's listenable everywhere. After all, I may not have an iPod forever...
posted by zoogleplex at 12:33 PM on January 21, 2005
In this case I can only speak for myself: I am an Apple fan (and sometimes evangelist) because for me personally, the stuff just works right the first time and the hardware and software don't have problems that get in the way of whatever task I'm trying to use them for.
So, as a "transparent" tool, they've been more effective for me.
By the way, that same applies to all my Dell PCs - within the PC platform arena, they have been the best by far of any brand of PC I've used. But they're not as transparent as the Macs - probably mostly because of Windows and not the Dell hardware.
So far I've bought 2 Macs and 3 Dell PCs (and no other brands at all, I've used other brands at work etc.) over the past 15 years. Both have worked excellently for me. I have used both intensively for creative tasks "traditionally" considered to be Mac tasks: graphics, illustration, pre-press, music production
I would have to consider myself a "power user" on both platforms; if there is a highly technical problem on either, I can solve it. The thing is, the number of such problems on the Mac platform compared to the PC platform, in that 15 years of experience, is negligible - even given that I rarely have trouble with my Dell PCs, far less problems than any of my PC-only friends.
That's where I'm coming from, jonmc. I've used both platforms, well, since 1984 - I still have the MacPaint files of the first art I ever did on a Mac SE in b/w, in fact. The Mac has just consistently been better to use.
I'm not a mad proselytizer tho. Use what you want! I would suggest however that many people would be more productive and overall happier with their computer experience on a Mac.
btw, yes I know that only iTunes AACs are DRM'ed. I choose to stick with MP3 files for my personal rips, even though AAC is superior-sounding, to stay with an open standard that's listenable everywhere. After all, I may not have an iPod forever...
posted by zoogleplex at 12:33 PM on January 21, 2005
I bought my GF a mini-iPod for xmas. Now I want one. I can claim hardcore geek status: I'm posting this from a Linux-only laptop, and I have even taken an iPaq, put Familiar Linux on it and converted it to a portable ogg player; but I also like Nice Things. iPods are Nice Things. I am sick of buying cheap shit on specs alone. It's like buying your wine based on the alcohol content.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:29 PM on January 22, 2005
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:29 PM on January 22, 2005
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posted by furtive at 12:30 PM on January 20, 2005