Unconscious Racist Reviews
April 27, 2005 12:05 AM Subscribe
"I don't think I saw one white person besides the people in my girl scout troop..." and other unconscious racist reviews about Atlanta, Georgia. Don't believe me? Just ask Chiquita, she'll direct you away from all those filty, dirty, unworthy homeless people (but hey, if you're gay and do not prefer those club going Queens then A-town is for you, playa)!
it's funny how some people talk about blacks like they're Aardvarks or something
posted by matteo at 12:31 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by matteo at 12:31 AM on April 27, 2005
How, exactly, do some people talk about aardvarks?
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:33 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:33 AM on April 27, 2005
I will not stand for this blatant aardvark prejudice.
posted by nightchrome at 12:38 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by nightchrome at 12:38 AM on April 27, 2005
Perhaps Candice (3rd link) and her fiancee should have checked out the 4th review, they may have had more fun...
posted by nomis at 12:49 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by nomis at 12:49 AM on April 27, 2005
From the 3rd link: Without the world watching, the streets are dirty and thieves abound.
Filthy thieves. They ruin it for everyone.
posted by shoppingforsanity at 12:53 AM on April 27, 2005
Filthy thieves. They ruin it for everyone.
posted by shoppingforsanity at 12:53 AM on April 27, 2005
I for one welcome our new Aardvark overlords.
posted by Lusy P Hur at 1:16 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by Lusy P Hur at 1:16 AM on April 27, 2005
How, exactly, do some people talk about aardvarks?
oooooooooooo mommy what the fuck is that stwange cweature? I am scawed!
posted by matteo at 1:58 AM on April 27, 2005
oooooooooooo mommy what the fuck is that stwange cweature? I am scawed!
posted by matteo at 1:58 AM on April 27, 2005
My overlord is a warthog, personally.
That being said, those comments didn't necessarily sound racist to me either; they just simply mentioned race. Wasn't she just noticing the lack of white people, rather than criticizing that situation? Probably more a result of 'big city' shock/observations than anything else?
This reminds of my predominantly caucasion/asian junior high, describing the only black kid in my grade as 'that guy over there in the red shirt'.
posted by Kololo at 2:00 AM on April 27, 2005
That being said, those comments didn't necessarily sound racist to me either; they just simply mentioned race. Wasn't she just noticing the lack of white people, rather than criticizing that situation? Probably more a result of 'big city' shock/observations than anything else?
This reminds of my predominantly caucasion/asian junior high, describing the only black kid in my grade as 'that guy over there in the red shirt'.
posted by Kololo at 2:00 AM on April 27, 2005
"For the most part, it doesn't read like these people are necessarily racist, it just sounds like they have lead rather sheltered lives."
23skiddo Kololo. Agreed however if I had a dime everytime I've heard "and then I went into ___ and I was the only white person there" and their friend nods and gives an empathetic "mmm hmm" as in..."oh I know EXACTLY what you are going through, African Americans can be so frightening...they might shoot you and/or pickpocket you," then I'd be a millionaire.
In the south, there is what I believe to be a latent stigma about it.
That said, it's not like she'd said "and all there were, were white people everywhere." Or I doubt the second lady would have said "and ask Linda, she's good with directions" but we have to play up that it's a different race. Why? Are they a zoo object?
posted by Hands of Manos at 2:11 AM on April 27, 2005
23skiddo Kololo. Agreed however if I had a dime everytime I've heard "and then I went into ___ and I was the only white person there" and their friend nods and gives an empathetic "mmm hmm" as in..."oh I know EXACTLY what you are going through, African Americans can be so frightening...they might shoot you and/or pickpocket you," then I'd be a millionaire.
In the south, there is what I believe to be a latent stigma about it.
That said, it's not like she'd said "and all there were, were white people everywhere." Or I doubt the second lady would have said "and ask Linda, she's good with directions" but we have to play up that it's a different race. Why? Are they a zoo object?
posted by Hands of Manos at 2:11 AM on April 27, 2005
These really don't read like they were written by the girl scouts that I buy cookies from. You believin' that?
posted by fixedgear at 2:36 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by fixedgear at 2:36 AM on April 27, 2005
What a ridiculous post. Hey get this...I went to Chinatown the other day and I was the only black person there! Oh whoops! Looks like I'm now unconsciously racist!
posted by Jase_B at 2:39 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by Jase_B at 2:39 AM on April 27, 2005
I guess they didn't learn anything about the city they were visiting.
The city of Atlanta (the actual city, not the metro area) approaches 80% African-americans. That's a fact, but not one worth commenting on, unless you grew up in an all-white neighborhood, like I did.
(The first time I actually interacted with blacks was when I went to college. Such is the curse of growing up in the far-more-racist Midwest).
Yes... the downtown area where people often stay is filled with the homeless; it's an ongoing problem that folks are working on. The climate here is too darn nice, and hospitable.
I always find it so sad when people visit my fair city rarely venture beyond the immediate area of their hotels, and they miss out on a real vibrant city, filled with diverse neighborhoods and a great quality of life. I've been here for over 20 years, and I love it...
posted by jpburns at 4:06 AM on April 27, 2005
The city of Atlanta (the actual city, not the metro area) approaches 80% African-americans. That's a fact, but not one worth commenting on, unless you grew up in an all-white neighborhood, like I did.
(The first time I actually interacted with blacks was when I went to college. Such is the curse of growing up in the far-more-racist Midwest).
Yes... the downtown area where people often stay is filled with the homeless; it's an ongoing problem that folks are working on. The climate here is too darn nice, and hospitable.
I always find it so sad when people visit my fair city rarely venture beyond the immediate area of their hotels, and they miss out on a real vibrant city, filled with diverse neighborhoods and a great quality of life. I've been here for over 20 years, and I love it...
posted by jpburns at 4:06 AM on April 27, 2005
For the most part, it doesn't read like these people are necessarily racist, it just sounds like they have lead rather sheltered lives.
If only we could find some kind of connection here...
In the south, there is what I believe to be a latent stigma about [rampant black violence]...
That's about to change, I reckon. Now that the south has re-elected Bush, middle-class European tourists are going to be more afraid of the white folks.
I mean, who knows what are strangely elitist poor white folks liable to do?
posted by squirrel at 4:14 AM on April 27, 2005
If only we could find some kind of connection here...
In the south, there is what I believe to be a latent stigma about [rampant black violence]...
That's about to change, I reckon. Now that the south has re-elected Bush, middle-class European tourists are going to be more afraid of the white folks.
I mean, who knows what are strangely elitist poor white folks liable to do?
posted by squirrel at 4:14 AM on April 27, 2005
Atlanta traffic is INSANE. I enjoyed that one visit, but damn. I will never EVER drive there. Let someone else drive while I close my eyes and rock back and forth.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 4:15 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 4:15 AM on April 27, 2005
> if I had a dime everytime I've heard "and then I went into ___ and I was the only
> white person there" and their friend nods and gives an empathetic "mmm hmm"
> as in..."oh I know EXACTLY what you are going through, African Americans can
> be so frightening...they might shoot you and/or pickpocket you," then I'd be a millionaire.
The content of "mmm hmm" is "mmm hmm." The added content comes from the mind of the Hands of Manos. Gotta find racism somewhere, don't we, in order to have something to feel outraged and superior about.
If "mmm hmm" is racist then racism has now been diluted down to the same level of seriousness as having a hangnail.
posted by jfuller at 4:35 AM on April 27, 2005
> white person there" and their friend nods and gives an empathetic "mmm hmm"
> as in..."oh I know EXACTLY what you are going through, African Americans can
> be so frightening...they might shoot you and/or pickpocket you," then I'd be a millionaire.
The content of "mmm hmm" is "mmm hmm." The added content comes from the mind of the Hands of Manos. Gotta find racism somewhere, don't we, in order to have something to feel outraged and superior about.
If "mmm hmm" is racist then racism has now been diluted down to the same level of seriousness as having a hangnail.
posted by jfuller at 4:35 AM on April 27, 2005
(The first time I actually interacted with blacks was when I went to college. Such is the curse of growing up in the far-more-racist Midwest).
Thanks for the generalization. I understand that your experience may have been that, but mine certainly differed.
Where I grew up, there was more of the unconscious racism than the overt racism (i.e. "That little black girl in the choir has such a nice voice.").
I don't know, maybe Iowa isn't part of the Midwest any more.
posted by thanotopsis at 4:48 AM on April 27, 2005
Thanks for the generalization. I understand that your experience may have been that, but mine certainly differed.
Where I grew up, there was more of the unconscious racism than the overt racism (i.e. "That little black girl in the choir has such a nice voice.").
I don't know, maybe Iowa isn't part of the Midwest any more.
posted by thanotopsis at 4:48 AM on April 27, 2005
jfuller has a point. "mmm hmm" can easily mean "I'm just going to smile and nod and then try to get away from this dumb racist person." Of course, it all depends on intonation and context.
Come to think of it, I found myself the only white person in a restaurant the other week. Of course, I didn't notice this at all until my (black) girlfriend pointed it out. *shrug*
Less racist than thou? Maybe. Unobservant? Definitely.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:48 AM on April 27, 2005
Come to think of it, I found myself the only white person in a restaurant the other week. Of course, I didn't notice this at all until my (black) girlfriend pointed it out. *shrug*
Less racist than thou? Maybe. Unobservant? Definitely.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:48 AM on April 27, 2005
i'm the only asian in our sales department. am i racist for noticing that?
posted by lotsofno at 4:54 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by lotsofno at 4:54 AM on April 27, 2005
Thanks for the generalization. I understand that your experience may have been that, but mine certainly differed.
Yeah, that's why I said "I" and not "you."
posted by jpburns at 4:59 AM on April 27, 2005
Yeah, that's why I said "I" and not "you."
posted by jpburns at 4:59 AM on April 27, 2005
Perhaps it is just me, but what was the point of this FPP? I'm not sure what discussion this was meant to elicit. Was it meant to point out the diversity of the Atlanta experience? Was it meant to make fun of the people doing the "reviews"? Was it pro/con Atlanta? Was it actually meant to troll a discussion on racism (I don't think so, but given the results, who knows)?
posted by HuronBob at 5:00 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by HuronBob at 5:00 AM on April 27, 2005
I apologize to everyone whom I have irritated with this post.
It does upset me as it was not my intent to troll and/or piss people off rather than to display the nature of how people unconsciously write remarks that would possibly denote racism.
What could I have done to have made a better FPP?
posted by Hands of Manos at 5:13 AM on April 27, 2005
It does upset me as it was not my intent to troll and/or piss people off rather than to display the nature of how people unconsciously write remarks that would possibly denote racism.
What could I have done to have made a better FPP?
posted by Hands of Manos at 5:13 AM on April 27, 2005
Aaardvark quislings must die!
On topic: this is a good post, Hands of Manos. You just touched a nervw.
The writer of the first bit betrays some lower-than-normal brain power anyway. Ya can't get lost in Downtown Atlanta if you glanced at a city map before going there, which I assume a good girl scout troop leader would have done ahead of time. And driving into a depressed area of town....she didn't do that, it just worked out that way. WTF?
Racism doesn't have some kind of boundary, a lot of it is 'innocent' preconception that dies hard in people who don't have a strong sense of identity and personal responsibility for their actions, and with that, a low chance of empathy.
But then you get to the hard core. In Chagrin Falls at a breakfast place, my ears almost fucking melted off at how several conversations within earshot mentioned nigger and jew as casually and matter-of-factly as the weather or the sports scores.
These weren't your missing-teeth, plaid-shirted, Kenworth-cap-wearing Central Casting crackers. 'Family folks', well-dressed, otherwise seemingly polite, kids at the tables.
IANAL (liberal that is) but racism, even in its passive form (e.g. being scared on the A train), is a degenerate, corrupting, communicable state of mind.
posted by nj_subgenius at 5:23 AM on April 27, 2005
On topic: this is a good post, Hands of Manos. You just touched a nervw.
The writer of the first bit betrays some lower-than-normal brain power anyway. Ya can't get lost in Downtown Atlanta if you glanced at a city map before going there, which I assume a good girl scout troop leader would have done ahead of time. And driving into a depressed area of town....she didn't do that, it just worked out that way. WTF?
Racism doesn't have some kind of boundary, a lot of it is 'innocent' preconception that dies hard in people who don't have a strong sense of identity and personal responsibility for their actions, and with that, a low chance of empathy.
But then you get to the hard core. In Chagrin Falls at a breakfast place, my ears almost fucking melted off at how several conversations within earshot mentioned nigger and jew as casually and matter-of-factly as the weather or the sports scores.
These weren't your missing-teeth, plaid-shirted, Kenworth-cap-wearing Central Casting crackers. 'Family folks', well-dressed, otherwise seemingly polite, kids at the tables.
IANAL (liberal that is) but racism, even in its passive form (e.g. being scared on the A train), is a degenerate, corrupting, communicable state of mind.
posted by nj_subgenius at 5:23 AM on April 27, 2005
What could I have done to have made a better FPP?
Dunno, but you could have replied better by asking this in MetaTalk.
posted by glenwood at 5:29 AM on April 27, 2005
Dunno, but you could have replied better by asking this in MetaTalk.
posted by glenwood at 5:29 AM on April 27, 2005
Only suggestion I have on your FPP: You want to provoke thought and reaction, not anger and high dudgeon. Good example of a truly bad FPP.
posted by nj_subgenius at 5:33 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by nj_subgenius at 5:33 AM on April 27, 2005
I went to the old-folks home and noticed I was the only person under 65. What an ageist I am!
Merely noticing race is considered racist only because America is still hung up on race, and the idea that the cure for racism is to pretend everyone's white.
"Carl is the BLACK guy? How racist! You should say Carl is the man in the blue suit. Because noticing he's black is RACIST. It's just not polite to mention someone is black, it's like pointing out a cripple."
posted by orthogonality at 5:34 AM on April 27, 2005
Merely noticing race is considered racist only because America is still hung up on race, and the idea that the cure for racism is to pretend everyone's white.
"Carl is the BLACK guy? How racist! You should say Carl is the man in the blue suit. Because noticing he's black is RACIST. It's just not polite to mention someone is black, it's like pointing out a cripple."
posted by orthogonality at 5:34 AM on April 27, 2005
How many of you who are outraged wonder about crossing the street at night when you see what *could be* a black guy ahead? Or lock your car doors when you drive through a predominantly black neighborhood?
posted by nj_subgenius at 5:46 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by nj_subgenius at 5:46 AM on April 27, 2005
people unconsciously write remarks that would possibly denote racism
Why is "Queens" capitalized? And how does that link support your unconsciously racist thesis?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 5:54 AM on April 27, 2005
Why is "Queens" capitalized? And how does that link support your unconsciously racist thesis?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 5:54 AM on April 27, 2005
Maybe this is completely a false dichotomy, but I see a difference between noticing the only minority group member nearby -- oh look, it's a black person -- and noticing that you're a minority yourself, which is a hard thing not to notice.
A common commment I hear about teaching English in Japan is that it demonstrates for many of us what it's like for the first time to truly be a minority. But we're racist for noticing, right?
Then again, Kololo's red shirt example - hilarious.
posted by dreamsign at 6:12 AM on April 27, 2005
A common commment I hear about teaching English in Japan is that it demonstrates for many of us what it's like for the first time to truly be a minority. But we're racist for noticing, right?
Then again, Kololo's red shirt example - hilarious.
posted by dreamsign at 6:12 AM on April 27, 2005
Perhaps it is just me, but what was the point of this FPP?
I was interested and amused to discover that epinions reviews cities. Perhaps next it will review nations of the world, or races of people, or political philosophies, or species of trout.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:19 AM on April 27, 2005
I was interested and amused to discover that epinions reviews cities. Perhaps next it will review nations of the world, or races of people, or political philosophies, or species of trout.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:19 AM on April 27, 2005
How dare you use an adjective to qualify your description of someone!
posted by furtive at 6:30 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by furtive at 6:30 AM on April 27, 2005
I was interested and amused to discover that epinions reviews cities.
Yeah, that might have made a decent post. But framed the way it was, it turned out very differently. "Look, look, people have opinions about Atlanta different than those that I hold! And some of them notice race! And others talk about gay stuff! Let's make fun of Girl Scouts who write immature things!" Sorry, Hands of Manos, but you should have tossed this one back in the stream and let it swim away.
posted by languagehat at 6:35 AM on April 27, 2005
Yeah, that might have made a decent post. But framed the way it was, it turned out very differently. "Look, look, people have opinions about Atlanta different than those that I hold! And some of them notice race! And others talk about gay stuff! Let's make fun of Girl Scouts who write immature things!" Sorry, Hands of Manos, but you should have tossed this one back in the stream and let it swim away.
posted by languagehat at 6:35 AM on April 27, 2005
I went from a diverse suburb of Atlanta to The Sticks, Georgia at the tender age of eleven and asked my mom, "Where all the other people were." Not to toot my own eleven year old horn, but I think that's the difference. These people are belieing thier sheltered backgrounds and obliquely showing that they aren't used to coping with not only people of other races, but their stereotypes regarding those people. At eleven, it didn't occur to me that there were places where there were just white people. These people can't wrap their heads around the idea that there are places where there are white, black, and yellow people all together. It's sad. And it does show a particular type of problem with our culture.
I'm from Atlanta, too, and I know that "Mmm hmm." Maybe having grown up in a pretty racist area (local chapter of the KKK very visible) colors my understanding of that raised eyebrow, head-nodding murmur, but I correlate it with the same thing Hands does.
posted by Medieval Maven at 6:37 AM on April 27, 2005
I'm from Atlanta, too, and I know that "Mmm hmm." Maybe having grown up in a pretty racist area (local chapter of the KKK very visible) colors my understanding of that raised eyebrow, head-nodding murmur, but I correlate it with the same thing Hands does.
posted by Medieval Maven at 6:37 AM on April 27, 2005
Hands of Manos.. I wasn't offended by your post, my comment about "what's the point" was an honest question. I assumed that you wanted to elicit a discussion, I just wasn't sure what it was. Perhaps a "more inside" that elaborated a bit regarding your own thoughts about the topic would have helped.
posted by HuronBob at 6:38 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by HuronBob at 6:38 AM on April 27, 2005
How, exactly, do some people talk about aardvarks?
In the third person.
posted by Cyrano at 6:57 AM on April 27, 2005
In the third person.
posted by Cyrano at 6:57 AM on April 27, 2005
Uh, the writer is a kid, mostly likely. I didn't see anything particularly racist, and I go with the "extremely sheltered" explanation. Why is this a post? What is the intention?
posted by agregoli at 7:14 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by agregoli at 7:14 AM on April 27, 2005
Ya can't get lost in Downtown Atlanta if you glanced at a city map before going there
I've lived in Atlanta for 12 years and I beg to differ.
"Just go down to Peachtree and turn left"
"Which Peachtree?"
posted by fletchmuy at 7:21 AM on April 27, 2005
I've lived in Atlanta for 12 years and I beg to differ.
"Just go down to Peachtree and turn left"
"Which Peachtree?"
posted by fletchmuy at 7:21 AM on April 27, 2005
There are a lot of black people in Hotlanta, I don't see how a group of people having a similar culture is "racist."
I don't even see the acronym MARTA as being racist, as it it generally reflective of the experience.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 7:23 AM on April 27, 2005
I don't even see the acronym MARTA as being racist, as it it generally reflective of the experience.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 7:23 AM on April 27, 2005
Wooo! racist or not, at least my sorta 'hood got a shout out in the "Queens" post. Not that I've ever been to Ho[e]downs, but it is around the corner from my place.
Oh and as a 10 year resident in ATL, I had that Mmm hmm reaction as well.
posted by trox at 7:26 AM on April 27, 2005
Oh and as a 10 year resident in ATL, I had that Mmm hmm reaction as well.
posted by trox at 7:26 AM on April 27, 2005
Plus, it should be pointed out that this post was made in 2003. Maybe the sheltered little suburban girl who wrote it has grown up since.
posted by Slagman at 7:28 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by Slagman at 7:28 AM on April 27, 2005
Another Atlantan chiming in here. I think the post is excellent, and had the same interpretation of the linked articles and the 'hmmm mmmm' thing as the other Atlantans. Clearly, the interpretation here has something to do with context, and our experiences in the city we all live in. I agree that the Girl Scout is probably more of a sheltered kid than a future Klan member, but what she means by pointing out she was the only white person is clear -- she noticed it, and it made her nervous. Clearly there is some racial prejudice at work there. Notice the reference to wearing a bullet-proof vest in the first paragraph, the one where she fears being the victim of a drive-by shooting. I wonder if the 'only Asian in the sales department' feels the same way every day at the office? Would the Girl Scout would have had these same feelings had she been driving through Sioux Falls instead of Atlanta? I kind of doubt it. Generally speaking, I like to think of intown Atlanta as a relatively progressive, well-integrated city. My neighborhood certainly is. Sure, there's still room for improvement, but by and large I think most Atlantans seem to get along, and things are moving in the right direction. However, many of our tourists and transplants do come from small towns in the rural south, where race relations are a bit more strained, to put it mildly. A trip to Atlanta is often their first exposure to an urban area, with the heavy traffic, confusing maps, fast pace, and melting pot culture that goes with it. I don't there's anything wrong with feeling a little overwhelmed on your first visit -- that's the way we grow as people. But there's also nothing wrong with pointing out the casual racism in that person's remarks about their experience.
posted by spilon at 7:59 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by spilon at 7:59 AM on April 27, 2005
No, there's nothing wrong with it. But it sure is a boring FPP.
posted by agregoli at 8:08 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by agregoli at 8:08 AM on April 27, 2005
but what she means by pointing out she was the only white person is clear -- she noticed it, and it made her nervous. Clearly there is some racial prejudice at work there.
Some people get nervous if they suddenly find that they stand out from the crowd. I fail to see how that is "clearly" racist.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:09 AM on April 27, 2005
Some people get nervous if they suddenly find that they stand out from the crowd. I fail to see how that is "clearly" racist.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:09 AM on April 27, 2005
I liked this post. I also like "anger and high dudgeon" so I guess it fits. "Touching a nerve" is a good thing, I say.
posted by fungible at 8:12 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by fungible at 8:12 AM on April 27, 2005
Some people get nervous if they suddenly find that they stand out from the crowd. I fail to see how that is "clearly" racist.
b/c there's nervous...and then there's nervous .
if a white goth kid found himself alone among a crowd of jocks, sure, he'd be nervous.
if that same kid suddenly found himself alone among a group of young black males, he'd be nervous.
i hate that people only associate racism with things like the kkk, the word "nigger", and phenonmena like white flight.
locking your car door when a black male walks by? that's not racist, that's just a natural reaction, that's just being safe.
switching your purse to the other side when a black male passes you on the sidewalk? again, that's not racist, that's just being safe, you do it whenever a strange male walks by (sure you do).
please note that i'm not just talking about white people in the above examples. i've been treated to some absolutely revolting racism at the hands of other black people during my time on this planet.
in fact, there was a study that found people are just plain more aroused (no, not that kind of arousal! well, sometimes...) when a strange black male is present. we all have reactions based on nothing other than the race of the person we see.
so, face it folks, all of us are racist. and the sooner we all admit it, the sooner we can start working on it. if you're in the north, stop insisting that racism only exists in the south. if you're in the south, stop insisting that there's some kind of insidious racism in the north that's worse than anything the south ever did. if you're black, stop insisting that you "don't have the power to be a racist."
as for the asians, well, they're mostly quiet and docile, so we don't have to worry about them.
i keed, i keed! jeebus!
posted by lord_wolf at 8:35 AM on April 27, 2005
b/c there's nervous...and then there's nervous .
if a white goth kid found himself alone among a crowd of jocks, sure, he'd be nervous.
if that same kid suddenly found himself alone among a group of young black males, he'd be nervous.
i hate that people only associate racism with things like the kkk, the word "nigger", and phenonmena like white flight.
locking your car door when a black male walks by? that's not racist, that's just a natural reaction, that's just being safe.
switching your purse to the other side when a black male passes you on the sidewalk? again, that's not racist, that's just being safe, you do it whenever a strange male walks by (sure you do).
please note that i'm not just talking about white people in the above examples. i've been treated to some absolutely revolting racism at the hands of other black people during my time on this planet.
in fact, there was a study that found people are just plain more aroused (no, not that kind of arousal! well, sometimes...) when a strange black male is present. we all have reactions based on nothing other than the race of the person we see.
so, face it folks, all of us are racist. and the sooner we all admit it, the sooner we can start working on it. if you're in the north, stop insisting that racism only exists in the south. if you're in the south, stop insisting that there's some kind of insidious racism in the north that's worse than anything the south ever did. if you're black, stop insisting that you "don't have the power to be a racist."
as for the asians, well, they're mostly quiet and docile, so we don't have to worry about them.
i keed, i keed! jeebus!
posted by lord_wolf at 8:35 AM on April 27, 2005
It is intellectually lazy to assume that to irritate or perplex others while somehow involving race automatically makes you confrontational about race. "Touching a nerve" without skill or focused intent is mere clumsiness.
On preview: lord_wolf, I agree with you inasmuch as all people are prejudiced--racist, ageist and otherwise.
posted by squirrel at 8:51 AM on April 27, 2005
On preview: lord_wolf, I agree with you inasmuch as all people are prejudiced--racist, ageist and otherwise.
posted by squirrel at 8:51 AM on April 27, 2005
Some people get nervous if they suddenly find that they stand out from the crowd. I fail to see how that is "clearly" racist.
Did you read the linked article? The girl made several statements that described her perception of the situation she found herself in, such as, "...my first impressions of Atlanta were not very good as I was scared for my life."
Seems pretty clear to me that she's not expressing run-of-the-mill social anxiety.
posted by spilon at 8:58 AM on April 27, 2005
Did you read the linked article? The girl made several statements that described her perception of the situation she found herself in, such as, "...my first impressions of Atlanta were not very good as I was scared for my life."
Seems pretty clear to me that she's not expressing run-of-the-mill social anxiety.
posted by spilon at 8:58 AM on April 27, 2005
nj_subgenius wrote: "Ya can't get lost in Downtown Atlanta if you glanced at a city map before going there"
Bullshit! I have lived in Atlanta for nearly 20 years and driving around downtown can still confuse the hell out of me.
and he wrote: "being scared on the A train"
Try standing on a Marta west-line platform some evening when a train breaks down. The comments about 'kicking white folks' asses for not paying taxes to keep the trains runnin' are from subtle.
Or, my exwife called Marta about train and bus routes during evening hours. The Marta rep responded, "You sound like a white girl, honey. You don't wanna be in 5 Points station after 8 o'clock."
Anecdotal, yes, but those anecdotes add up.
Something Manos neglected to state: Metro Atlanta is highly segregated. Name an ethnic group, and most Atlantans can tell you where their main neighborhoods lie. Further, you can find a high level of racism in any one of those groups, for example, the hispanic-korean gang wars in the Buford Highway corridor that have been escalting over the last decade.
posted by mischief at 9:02 AM on April 27, 2005
Bullshit! I have lived in Atlanta for nearly 20 years and driving around downtown can still confuse the hell out of me.
and he wrote: "being scared on the A train"
Try standing on a Marta west-line platform some evening when a train breaks down. The comments about 'kicking white folks' asses for not paying taxes to keep the trains runnin' are from subtle.
Or, my exwife called Marta about train and bus routes during evening hours. The Marta rep responded, "You sound like a white girl, honey. You don't wanna be in 5 Points station after 8 o'clock."
Anecdotal, yes, but those anecdotes add up.
Something Manos neglected to state: Metro Atlanta is highly segregated. Name an ethnic group, and most Atlantans can tell you where their main neighborhoods lie. Further, you can find a high level of racism in any one of those groups, for example, the hispanic-korean gang wars in the Buford Highway corridor that have been escalting over the last decade.
posted by mischief at 9:02 AM on April 27, 2005
So let me get this straight: people aren't supposed to acknowledge that a person has particular skin tone when describing them. We want a completely colorblind society. Unless we are talking about jobs or admissions where we are supposed to take notice of a person's skin color and give them preferences because of their skin color?
Would it be wrong to point out that Atlanta does have high crime statistics so there is a rational basis to feeling scared, especially when a person comes from a smaller, rural and safe place?
posted by dios at 9:07 AM on April 27, 2005
Would it be wrong to point out that Atlanta does have high crime statistics so there is a rational basis to feeling scared, especially when a person comes from a smaller, rural and safe place?
posted by dios at 9:07 AM on April 27, 2005
Seems pretty clear to me that she's not expressing run-of-the-mill social anxiety.
She claims that she ended up in a neighborhood with "boarded up" and "falling apart" houses, "no one walking the streets unless you count the prostitutes, and no sign of life in the houses unless you count the two people selling drugs off their front porch".
Maybe she made it all up. Maybe there was a flower stand on the porch where they were selling drugs and the prostitutes were also collecting for the Salvation Army. I have no idea, but just about every large city has an area you could pass through that would be "scary" to people who don't live there.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:09 AM on April 27, 2005
She claims that she ended up in a neighborhood with "boarded up" and "falling apart" houses, "no one walking the streets unless you count the prostitutes, and no sign of life in the houses unless you count the two people selling drugs off their front porch".
Maybe she made it all up. Maybe there was a flower stand on the porch where they were selling drugs and the prostitutes were also collecting for the Salvation Army. I have no idea, but just about every large city has an area you could pass through that would be "scary" to people who don't live there.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:09 AM on April 27, 2005
Try standing on a Marta west-line platform some evening when a train breaks down. The comments about 'kicking white folks' asses for not paying taxes to keep the trains runnin' are from subtle.
posted by mischief at 9:02 AM PST on April 27
I remeber the first time I heard the term "MARTA" and it was explained to me that it meant "Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta." Then I remember my first time there late at night on MARTA (riding the East West to try to make the change to go to Buckhead) and understanding that the MARTA joke, like most cliches, was based on a truth. I remember the ugly looks I got from kids with their chests puffed out and snarls. As much as people are chastising this Girl Scout for something called "casual racism," I know I experienced overt racism as I was hated and threatened merely because I am not black.
posted by dios at 9:15 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by mischief at 9:02 AM PST on April 27
I remeber the first time I heard the term "MARTA" and it was explained to me that it meant "Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta." Then I remember my first time there late at night on MARTA (riding the East West to try to make the change to go to Buckhead) and understanding that the MARTA joke, like most cliches, was based on a truth. I remember the ugly looks I got from kids with their chests puffed out and snarls. As much as people are chastising this Girl Scout for something called "casual racism," I know I experienced overt racism as I was hated and threatened merely because I am not black.
posted by dios at 9:15 AM on April 27, 2005
I think in a clumsy way, the FPP wanted to start a discussion about some people's irrational fear of black people. It is a sad, but true fact of life that when confronted by the same situation many people will react differently when races are switched.
posted by ozomatli at 9:17 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by ozomatli at 9:17 AM on April 27, 2005
OK, mischief and others, I forgot about the Peachtrees, and I was more used to Perimeter than downtown. You definitely win there for the casual traveler. There is a crazy logic to it if you read the map before driving. Having lived in Boston must have inured me to the confusion of driving in Atlanta.
And to your counterpoint, mischief, racism isn't any white person thing, I agree. I commented on what I have experienced and appreciate your view.
posted by nj_subgenius at 9:24 AM on April 27, 2005
And to your counterpoint, mischief, racism isn't any white person thing, I agree. I commented on what I have experienced and appreciate your view.
posted by nj_subgenius at 9:24 AM on April 27, 2005
I rode MARTA down to the airport late at night once, and was one of maybe two white people on the train toward the lower end. But nobody snarled at me. Maybe it was because I didn't looked even remotely weirded out, given that I was doing academic research that summer in predominantly black neighborhoods of Deep South city? Well, all I remember is that the train was well-lit, and I was just wanting to get to the aiport. The mission was accomplished without incident, and I'd undertake such a mission without hesitation again, if the need arose.
posted by raysmj at 9:38 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by raysmj at 9:38 AM on April 27, 2005
I know I experienced overt racism as I was hated and threatened merely because I am not black.
dios, I'd be the last person in the world to deny that black people can often be just as bigoted as anyone else, I gotta wonder if maybe you're lens is a little distorted. I've ridden public transportation where I was the only white person within miles of the train and spent time in (and lived in) predominantly black and hispanic neighborhoods, and there've been maybe 1 or 2 occasions where I've experienced overt racial hostility, and I simply wrote them off as people being dicks rather than any kind of groupthink.
posted by jonmc at 9:52 AM on April 27, 2005
dios, I'd be the last person in the world to deny that black people can often be just as bigoted as anyone else, I gotta wonder if maybe you're lens is a little distorted. I've ridden public transportation where I was the only white person within miles of the train and spent time in (and lived in) predominantly black and hispanic neighborhoods, and there've been maybe 1 or 2 occasions where I've experienced overt racial hostility, and I simply wrote them off as people being dicks rather than any kind of groupthink.
posted by jonmc at 9:52 AM on April 27, 2005
I grew up in whiter-than-white little towns in Michigan. The first time I went to New York City I was 18, and I did note that I was in the racial minority when I was in Chinatown and at certain subway stops. The feeling was less of an mmm hmm, than a, huh, how about that. I thought, well, this must be what it's like for people of other races all the time. It's not necessarily threatening, but it does make one feel kind of alien. I often go jogging at the highschool where I live. The first time I went, I noticed that I was the only white person there. Not in an OMG, purse-clutching sort of way, but it's hard not to notice such things.
That said, I think the girlscout is kind of a twat. Some people should just stay home.
posted by apis mellifera at 9:59 AM on April 27, 2005
That said, I think the girlscout is kind of a twat. Some people should just stay home.
posted by apis mellifera at 9:59 AM on April 27, 2005
thanks for pointing that out, raysmj.
i think folks are overlooking confirmation bias when describing how they felt threatend as white people when among groups of blacks.
b/c of confirmation bias, it'd be real easy for me to remember all my encounters with police officers as bad b/c of racism. when i stop and think about it, however, i realize that i have had a great many encounters with cops who were the very essence of professionalism, class, courtesy, and service. in truth, the ratio for racist cops to awesome cops in my experience is probably about 40% to 60%.
but i remember those 40% much more vividly. just like people remember the snarls, comments about hurting white people, and other things far more than they remember good or even neutral experiences with black people.
on preview, right on, jonmc.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:09 AM on April 27, 2005
i think folks are overlooking confirmation bias when describing how they felt threatend as white people when among groups of blacks.
b/c of confirmation bias, it'd be real easy for me to remember all my encounters with police officers as bad b/c of racism. when i stop and think about it, however, i realize that i have had a great many encounters with cops who were the very essence of professionalism, class, courtesy, and service. in truth, the ratio for racist cops to awesome cops in my experience is probably about 40% to 60%.
but i remember those 40% much more vividly. just like people remember the snarls, comments about hurting white people, and other things far more than they remember good or even neutral experiences with black people.
on preview, right on, jonmc.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:09 AM on April 27, 2005
I sometimes end up at parties where I am the only member
of my kind. By the end of the night, there's always some jerk pointing it out.
posted by doctorschlock at 10:12 AM on April 27, 2005
of my kind. By the end of the night, there's always some jerk pointing it out.
posted by doctorschlock at 10:12 AM on April 27, 2005
"I don't think I saw one white person besides the people in my girl scout troop..."
As someone who grew up in a village of 300 or so white people, I can identify with that feeling. I live in Toronto now and have adjusted to it fine, but it was a lot to take in at first. There was one Chinese girl and one black guy in my high school and the rest of us were white. Everyone was either Protestant or non-religious. I had never really looked at a black person's hands until I was 22, and I was curious and embarrassed about it because it's the kind of curiousity you don't get away with past the age of 5.
As far as groups of black people go, the only thing I associated with them was what I saw of them -- gangs on TV and in movies. And, for this girl, she probably associates the city with a lot of crime, like I did before I moved here, just because that's all you hear on the news. I'm not saying it's good, but that's the reaction I expect from kids who grow up in an all-white rural environment. Different can feel threatening.
It's not like I moved here and thought "dang, this is scary, these people give me the creeps," but it was overwhelming and busy and new and I didn't know how exactly I was expected to act, and I kept hearing languages on the subway that I didn't recognize because they weren't French or Spanish, and then I'm in Chinatown and none of the signs in the markets are in English and I don't even recognize the fruit, and I kept seeing people who wore clothes that I had never seen anything like, or who I had trouble telling where they came from, and it was just nothing like what I was used to. I had never been socialized on how to deal with those things. Those are the reasons that I'm totally addicted to Toronto now, but it took a long while to feel like home.
posted by heatherann at 10:19 AM on April 27, 2005
As someone who grew up in a village of 300 or so white people, I can identify with that feeling. I live in Toronto now and have adjusted to it fine, but it was a lot to take in at first. There was one Chinese girl and one black guy in my high school and the rest of us were white. Everyone was either Protestant or non-religious. I had never really looked at a black person's hands until I was 22, and I was curious and embarrassed about it because it's the kind of curiousity you don't get away with past the age of 5.
As far as groups of black people go, the only thing I associated with them was what I saw of them -- gangs on TV and in movies. And, for this girl, she probably associates the city with a lot of crime, like I did before I moved here, just because that's all you hear on the news. I'm not saying it's good, but that's the reaction I expect from kids who grow up in an all-white rural environment. Different can feel threatening.
It's not like I moved here and thought "dang, this is scary, these people give me the creeps," but it was overwhelming and busy and new and I didn't know how exactly I was expected to act, and I kept hearing languages on the subway that I didn't recognize because they weren't French or Spanish, and then I'm in Chinatown and none of the signs in the markets are in English and I don't even recognize the fruit, and I kept seeing people who wore clothes that I had never seen anything like, or who I had trouble telling where they came from, and it was just nothing like what I was used to. I had never been socialized on how to deal with those things. Those are the reasons that I'm totally addicted to Toronto now, but it took a long while to feel like home.
posted by heatherann at 10:19 AM on April 27, 2005
lord_wolf. I'm willing to concede that you are right on that point. I have had many more positive encounters with black people as friends, acquaintances, and colleagues. I was just pointing out my experience on the MARTA jived with mischief's experiences. I don't think I said (and certainly didn't intend to say) that all black people are like that. I was referring to specifically my experience on MARTA. And if my experience happened to another person, I can see why the review of Atlanta might note that.
posted by dios at 10:36 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by dios at 10:36 AM on April 27, 2005
i think folks are overlooking confirmation bias when describing how they felt threatend as white people when among groups of blacks.
It's also important to differentiate between racial territorialism and racism. I have a relation by marriage who grew up in East Harlem during the 40's when it was a mix of working-class blacks and italians. One day in the school cafeteria, my short Italian relation bumbed into a black kid carrying a tray and accidentally knocked his milk carton over. "Pick that up," the black kid snarled. With the whole school watching, my relative whammed his tray into the guys neck and pummeled him. Racial Incident? on a certain level. Hate crime? no, just tribalistic playground bullshit. But to this day, that relative is somewhat bigoted, though not in an actively hostile way. But that bigotry was born out of the experience of growing up in a tense racial enviornment, which is a horse of a diffewrent color, from the "fear of the unknown," racism on display in the article. I'm not saying either is better or worse, just pointing out that things don't arise in a vacuum.
posted by jonmc at 10:43 AM on April 27, 2005
It's also important to differentiate between racial territorialism and racism. I have a relation by marriage who grew up in East Harlem during the 40's when it was a mix of working-class blacks and italians. One day in the school cafeteria, my short Italian relation bumbed into a black kid carrying a tray and accidentally knocked his milk carton over. "Pick that up," the black kid snarled. With the whole school watching, my relative whammed his tray into the guys neck and pummeled him. Racial Incident? on a certain level. Hate crime? no, just tribalistic playground bullshit. But to this day, that relative is somewhat bigoted, though not in an actively hostile way. But that bigotry was born out of the experience of growing up in a tense racial enviornment, which is a horse of a diffewrent color, from the "fear of the unknown," racism on display in the article. I'm not saying either is better or worse, just pointing out that things don't arise in a vacuum.
posted by jonmc at 10:43 AM on April 27, 2005
I was just pointing out my experience on the MARTA jived with mischief's experiences.
You mean "jibed". "Jived" is hippety-hoppity bling-bling talk.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 10:43 AM on April 27, 2005
You mean "jibed". "Jived" is hippety-hoppity bling-bling talk.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 10:43 AM on April 27, 2005
I for one did find the first review of Atlanta to be racist and appalling. Well, we ended up right in the heart of the ghetto. By the definition of ghetto this girl is characterizing a minority part of town as violent, rundown, and sleazy. She actually writes, No cars driving around except us, no one walking the streets unless you count the prostitutes, and no sign of life in the houses unless you count the two people selling drugs off their front porch. I kept expecting there to be a drive by or a sniper in one of the houses. How the hell does little rinkydink Amy from Florida (ugh) know what a drug deal looks like? I think it is more likely that she is imposing this on these people because of her biased preconceived ideas. And the fact that she expects there to be a "drive by" speaks for itself.
posted by crapulent at 11:24 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by crapulent at 11:24 AM on April 27, 2005
How the hell does little rinkydink Amy from Florida (ugh) know what a drug deal looks like?
I think that question answers itself, dude.
posted by jonmc at 11:29 AM on April 27, 2005
I think that question answers itself, dude.
posted by jonmc at 11:29 AM on April 27, 2005
Thanks for your honesty, heatherann.
I think we often tend to forget that there's really nothing wrong with being inexperienced -- it's all in how you process new experiences, and whether you choose to bring irrational prejudices to the table rather than leaving them at home. Of course people will be apprehensive about new situations, or the first time they're the only (insert ethnicity here) in the room. It's unfair to assume that because someone is from an all-white area, there's going to be an automatic and immediate bias toward nonwhites; on the contrary, this is probably the worst way to foster open-mindedness among white people.
My suspicion, though -- and it's just a suspicion, so please take me to task on it if you disagree -- is that black folks (for instance) find themselves to be alone in a crowded room way more often that white folks. Part of this is just census numbers, but a bigger part of it, I think, is that most of the faces that we see in American pop culture -- on TV, in ads and billboards, in movies -- are white (for those of you who have seen it, there's a great scene in the movie White Man's Burden that emphasizes this). And because of this, I don't think the playing field is as level as we'd like it to be.
Anyway, the girl scout needs to be more open-minded.
posted by hifiparasol at 11:30 AM on April 27, 2005
I think we often tend to forget that there's really nothing wrong with being inexperienced -- it's all in how you process new experiences, and whether you choose to bring irrational prejudices to the table rather than leaving them at home. Of course people will be apprehensive about new situations, or the first time they're the only (insert ethnicity here) in the room. It's unfair to assume that because someone is from an all-white area, there's going to be an automatic and immediate bias toward nonwhites; on the contrary, this is probably the worst way to foster open-mindedness among white people.
My suspicion, though -- and it's just a suspicion, so please take me to task on it if you disagree -- is that black folks (for instance) find themselves to be alone in a crowded room way more often that white folks. Part of this is just census numbers, but a bigger part of it, I think, is that most of the faces that we see in American pop culture -- on TV, in ads and billboards, in movies -- are white (for those of you who have seen it, there's a great scene in the movie White Man's Burden that emphasizes this). And because of this, I don't think the playing field is as level as we'd like it to be.
Anyway, the girl scout needs to be more open-minded.
posted by hifiparasol at 11:30 AM on April 27, 2005
Funny, but when a place is noted to have almost all white people, it's usually the locals who are taken to task.
posted by HTuttle at 11:36 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by HTuttle at 11:36 AM on April 27, 2005
But to this day, that relative is somewhat bigoted, though not in an actively hostile way. But that bigotry was born out of the experience of growing up in a tense racial enviornment, which is a horse of a different color
Interesting point, jmc, and one that I'm happy to work into my personal schema on race relations. How self-aware is your relative about said bigotry? Because certainly we're all going to have prejudices that we can't help, though I think if we try to be rational about realizing what those prejudices are, and how they affect our actions, it's easier to make progress.
posted by hifiparasol at 11:37 AM on April 27, 2005
Interesting point, jmc, and one that I'm happy to work into my personal schema on race relations. How self-aware is your relative about said bigotry? Because certainly we're all going to have prejudices that we can't help, though I think if we try to be rational about realizing what those prejudices are, and how they affect our actions, it's easier to make progress.
posted by hifiparasol at 11:37 AM on April 27, 2005
Interesting point, jmc, and one that I'm happy to work into my personal schema on race relations. How self-aware is your relative about said bigotry?
not terribly self-aware about, he casually uses un-PC terms and stuff like that. But I think even non-racist people who've spent large amounts of time in racially diverse enviornments tend to be less naive (either overly fearful or overly fetishizing) about their particular other. And this is not a whitey-bash. I had a cuban co-worker in Miami who refused to help an Orthodox Jewish couple because "they all hate Spanish people." After helping the customers, I mentioned to her that my Orthodox neice had married a rabbinical student named "Lopez."
posted by jonmc at 11:45 AM on April 27, 2005
not terribly self-aware about, he casually uses un-PC terms and stuff like that. But I think even non-racist people who've spent large amounts of time in racially diverse enviornments tend to be less naive (either overly fearful or overly fetishizing) about their particular other. And this is not a whitey-bash. I had a cuban co-worker in Miami who refused to help an Orthodox Jewish couple because "they all hate Spanish people." After helping the customers, I mentioned to her that my Orthodox neice had married a rabbinical student named "Lopez."
posted by jonmc at 11:45 AM on April 27, 2005
Am I the only one who immediately pulled up the reviews of my city?
posted by Sheppagus at 11:56 AM on April 27, 2005
posted by Sheppagus at 11:56 AM on April 27, 2005
I've never been in any neighbourhood in Toronto where I felt out of place. But one day wandering around Atlanta there were a couple times when I stepped into places that I wanted to find my way out of fast. Walking through the business district up towards the art gallery early one morning I took to calling the place Neutronbombtown, because there seemed to be hardly any pedestrian traffic at all. When I wandered into black areas (down below Five Points and the area where the MLK museum is) there seemed to be more street life but I felt I stood out and maybe even targetted by a couple panhandlers and street character types. This may be because I have a stereotypical idea of race relations in the southern States, and believed there was a lot more antagonism and segregation between the races.
And when you're walking along Peachtree, just one street over from Peachtree, and arrive at the intersection of Peachtree and Peachtree, you know that in some aspect you've found a city that is the work of the insane.
posted by TimTypeZed at 12:18 PM on April 27, 2005
And when you're walking along Peachtree, just one street over from Peachtree, and arrive at the intersection of Peachtree and Peachtree, you know that in some aspect you've found a city that is the work of the insane.
posted by TimTypeZed at 12:18 PM on April 27, 2005
What could I have done to have made a better FPP?
Nothing. It would have sucked no matter what kind of "fluff" you tried to include.
posted by Witty at 12:40 PM on April 27, 2005
Nothing. It would have sucked no matter what kind of "fluff" you tried to include.
posted by Witty at 12:40 PM on April 27, 2005
Witty,
If it was your aim or goal to make sure to kick me when I was down and/or make sure you achieved superiority over me...mission accomplished.
Your comments indeed made me feel like an incompetent and utter shit head for posting such a stupid FPP.
I'm truly sorry to have wasted any of your time.
posted by Hands of Manos at 1:22 PM on April 27, 2005
If it was your aim or goal to make sure to kick me when I was down and/or make sure you achieved superiority over me...mission accomplished.
Your comments indeed made me feel like an incompetent and utter shit head for posting such a stupid FPP.
I'm truly sorry to have wasted any of your time.
posted by Hands of Manos at 1:22 PM on April 27, 2005
I am white. I live in a northern town. At one time in the early 90s I wanted so much to move to Atlanta, but it didn't work out for me. But, my family and I spent as much of our "free" time as we could in Atlanta. We are not rich--although I amde a decent living then. I have these questions to ask--Why do you fear black people? Are they not your equals, even when they are poor? Why do you want to wear a bullet proof vest on the "empty streets"? I felt safer in the Techwood ghetto and on MLK or Ponce de Leon than I ever felt in the cracker suburbs of Tampa/St. Pete. I just cannot understand why white people are so dreadfully afraid that black people are going to hurt them just because they are white. Makes no damn sense to me at all.
posted by beelzbubba at 1:39 PM on April 27, 2005
posted by beelzbubba at 1:39 PM on April 27, 2005
Makes no damn sense to me at all.
posted by beelzbubba at 1:39 PM PST on April 27
beelzbubba, if you don't look at it as a racial issue, then you might see there could be reason or sense behind why people are more scared in ghettos. Quite simply, just look at base crime statistics. There is exponentially more crime and violent crime in inner city poor areas. While there is the standard socioeconomic explanations of this, it is still a fact nonetheless. You are less safe in those areas, regardless of your race. Statistics prove it. Denying that and acting as if this is all about the color of the skin of the people is to miss the point. Why might someone be afraid of a black person who is dressed like a gang member? Because that person is dressed like a gang member, and gang members tend to be dangerous! Not because the person is black. It would be completely unreasonable to act like you are afraid if you lived in an upper class neighborhood that was filled with black people. Then it would be a racial issue. But there are rational reasons to be afraid in poor inner cities area---statistics show that more crime occurs there. The key is realizing it is a socioeconomic issue and not a race issue that is the cause of the crime.
posted by dios at 1:54 PM on April 27, 2005
posted by beelzbubba at 1:39 PM PST on April 27
beelzbubba, if you don't look at it as a racial issue, then you might see there could be reason or sense behind why people are more scared in ghettos. Quite simply, just look at base crime statistics. There is exponentially more crime and violent crime in inner city poor areas. While there is the standard socioeconomic explanations of this, it is still a fact nonetheless. You are less safe in those areas, regardless of your race. Statistics prove it. Denying that and acting as if this is all about the color of the skin of the people is to miss the point. Why might someone be afraid of a black person who is dressed like a gang member? Because that person is dressed like a gang member, and gang members tend to be dangerous! Not because the person is black. It would be completely unreasonable to act like you are afraid if you lived in an upper class neighborhood that was filled with black people. Then it would be a racial issue. But there are rational reasons to be afraid in poor inner cities area---statistics show that more crime occurs there. The key is realizing it is a socioeconomic issue and not a race issue that is the cause of the crime.
posted by dios at 1:54 PM on April 27, 2005
We went to the Underground one night to eat. We were the only white people there. There are lots of places there to eat, which was nice. It wasn't nice when guys tried to hit on us though... we're a girl scout troop and our leader was right there and guys kept hitting on us. Well... they did seem a little drunk. hehe.
Girl Scouts are like, what, twelve? Eeewwww....
posted by alumshubby at 1:59 PM on April 27, 2005
Girl Scouts are like, what, twelve? Eeewwww....
posted by alumshubby at 1:59 PM on April 27, 2005
Girl Scouts are like, what, twelve? Eeewwww....
posted by alumshubby at 1:59 PM PST on April 27
I agree. Twelve is a little on the high end of the hawt age range.
posted by dios at 2:05 PM on April 27, 2005
posted by alumshubby at 1:59 PM PST on April 27
I agree. Twelve is a little on the high end of the hawt age range.
posted by dios at 2:05 PM on April 27, 2005
It would be completely unreasonable to act like you are afraid if you lived in an upper class neighborhood that was filled with black people.
I have to agree with dios here. The upper class robs and murders through the proxy of US foreign and economic policy, not directly. The only thing to watch for in those neighborhoods is from the neighborhood cops whose job is to keep you out.
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:07 PM on April 27, 2005
I have to agree with dios here. The upper class robs and murders through the proxy of US foreign and economic policy, not directly. The only thing to watch for in those neighborhoods is from the neighborhood cops whose job is to keep you out.
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:07 PM on April 27, 2005
so, face it folks, all of us are racist. and the sooner we all admit it, the sooner we can start working on it. if you're in the north, stop insisting that racism only exists in the south. if you're in the south, stop insisting that there's some kind of insidious racism in the north that's worse than anything the south ever did. if you're black, stop insisting that you "don't have the power to be a racist."
Amen. So stop picking on a 12-year-old Girl Scout, everybody; you're just trying to convince everyone that you're not a racist, no sirree, not like that nasty Girl Scout! Why, she's from Florida!
And a big shoutout to heatherann for that empathetic and enlightening comment.
Oh, yeah -- Hands Of Manos, pay no attention to Witty. OK, your post sucked, but we've all made posts that sucked. When you wake up tomorrow, you'll be a better person for the experience, and your next post will be better. When Witty wakes up, he'll still be the same old asshole, and his comments are always going to suck. So don't take it to heart.
posted by languagehat at 2:13 PM on April 27, 2005
Amen. So stop picking on a 12-year-old Girl Scout, everybody; you're just trying to convince everyone that you're not a racist, no sirree, not like that nasty Girl Scout! Why, she's from Florida!
And a big shoutout to heatherann for that empathetic and enlightening comment.
Oh, yeah -- Hands Of Manos, pay no attention to Witty. OK, your post sucked, but we've all made posts that sucked. When you wake up tomorrow, you'll be a better person for the experience, and your next post will be better. When Witty wakes up, he'll still be the same old asshole, and his comments are always going to suck. So don't take it to heart.
posted by languagehat at 2:13 PM on April 27, 2005
"I rode MARTA down to the airport late at night once"
The south line, particularly the stations, is much more heavily policed than the east-west line because it does run to the airport.
posted by mischief at 2:29 PM on April 27, 2005
The south line, particularly the stations, is much more heavily policed than the east-west line because it does run to the airport.
posted by mischief at 2:29 PM on April 27, 2005
How, exactly, do some people talk about aardvarks?
In the third person.
posted by Cyrano
Wouldn't that be the answer to 'How, exactly, do aarvarks talk about aardvarks?
Cerebus for pope!
posted by PurplePorpoise at 4:25 PM on April 27, 2005
In the third person.
posted by Cyrano
Wouldn't that be the answer to 'How, exactly, do aarvarks talk about aardvarks?
Cerebus for pope!
posted by PurplePorpoise at 4:25 PM on April 27, 2005
If it was your aim or goal to make sure to kick me when I was down and/or make sure you achieved superiority over me...mission accomplished.
No... not my "mission" at all. You asked a question, I answered it. Apparently, I'm not allowed to have an opinion of this post, while everyone else can.
Your comments indeed made me feel like an incompetent and utter shit head for posting such a stupid FPP.
Wow... you're pretty sensitive then. There have been several other people that have stated how much they thought your post was less-than-quality. Was it the word "sucked" that hurt you so?
Please. What did you want to accomplish? For everyone to chime in about how LESS racist than our little Girl Scout friend we all are? This is a "pat each other on the back" thread... which your post could have done nothing but fuel.
"Look, a racist. But I'm not a racist... and here's my little anecdote that proves it." Horseshit.
And languageha... really, eat me.
posted by Witty at 5:31 PM on April 27, 2005
No... not my "mission" at all. You asked a question, I answered it. Apparently, I'm not allowed to have an opinion of this post, while everyone else can.
Your comments indeed made me feel like an incompetent and utter shit head for posting such a stupid FPP.
Wow... you're pretty sensitive then. There have been several other people that have stated how much they thought your post was less-than-quality. Was it the word "sucked" that hurt you so?
Please. What did you want to accomplish? For everyone to chime in about how LESS racist than our little Girl Scout friend we all are? This is a "pat each other on the back" thread... which your post could have done nothing but fuel.
"Look, a racist. But I'm not a racist... and here's my little anecdote that proves it." Horseshit.
And languageha... really, eat me.
posted by Witty at 5:31 PM on April 27, 2005
Sure! Anybody got some fava beans and a nice chianti?
posted by languagehat at 6:05 PM on April 27, 2005
posted by languagehat at 6:05 PM on April 27, 2005
Witty --
It's called tact, man. Admit it, you could have worded your response better. Anyway, by the time you made it, I think Hands had probably realized this wasn't the most popular of FPPs. You even admit it yourself. Less-than-great post, acknowledged, let's move on.
posted by hifiparasol at 6:08 PM on April 27, 2005
It's called tact, man. Admit it, you could have worded your response better. Anyway, by the time you made it, I think Hands had probably realized this wasn't the most popular of FPPs. You even admit it yourself. Less-than-great post, acknowledged, let's move on.
posted by hifiparasol at 6:08 PM on April 27, 2005
As the only person in this thread who is clearly not a racist bigot, can I just say that I fear the day I get on the bus and find it filled with ugly people, who rip off my pretty, pretty face and then pass it round to try it on, a mask of red death.
posted by Sparx at 6:09 PM on April 27, 2005
posted by Sparx at 6:09 PM on April 27, 2005
Witty,
I'm not going to get in a game of "lets spin the conversation to favor me."
You are entitled to your opinions, it's just that your opinions hurt my feelings. Yes, as a matter of fact, I am a sensitive person...but I also own that and deal with it.
It's just that this particular day I responded to you from the heart instead of the head. It was a mistake on my part and therefore I apologize to you for forcing my feelings back upon your opinion. I am expecting, nor requesting anything from you. It's just that your statement really hurt my feelings.
posted by Hands of Manos at 6:22 PM on April 27, 2005
I'm not going to get in a game of "lets spin the conversation to favor me."
You are entitled to your opinions, it's just that your opinions hurt my feelings. Yes, as a matter of fact, I am a sensitive person...but I also own that and deal with it.
It's just that this particular day I responded to you from the heart instead of the head. It was a mistake on my part and therefore I apologize to you for forcing my feelings back upon your opinion. I am expecting, nor requesting anything from you. It's just that your statement really hurt my feelings.
posted by Hands of Manos at 6:22 PM on April 27, 2005
"I am not expecting..." sorry, typo
posted by Hands of Manos at 6:25 PM on April 27, 2005
posted by Hands of Manos at 6:25 PM on April 27, 2005
Seeing as this post has 91 comments as of this writing, I don't consider it a bad post at all. It got people talking/arguing/thinking and isn't that the very point of MetaFilter? Bravo Hands of Manos.
posted by crapulent at 6:59 PM on April 27, 2005
posted by crapulent at 6:59 PM on April 27, 2005
All I know is Baltimore got 20 more positive reviews than Louisville, 78 to 58, and none of 'em in either place mentioned me, pro or con. Is that an unconscious bias or what?!1? "Ph3ar m3, p30n5."
Anyway, maybe I'm weird, but I've lived in "very urban" neighborhoods most of my life and I've had to go damn near everywhere within these cities on foot or by public transit, so I see a lot of "bad" neighborhoods and the people who (like me) live in them. And I gotta tell ya, it's true that most of the panhandlers up on Oak Street are adult black men, etc. etc., but it's been at least twenty years since black people have bothered me on the street; the people who've made me unhappy and/or put me in the hospital have been at least as white as me, whether Nazis or cops. Is it just me or is the whole Urban Danger thing a bit over-rated? Should I start passing out brochures on "How To Be A White Person Waiting For A Bus In A Black Neighborhood" or something?
posted by davy at 8:34 PM on April 27, 2005
Anyway, maybe I'm weird, but I've lived in "very urban" neighborhoods most of my life and I've had to go damn near everywhere within these cities on foot or by public transit, so I see a lot of "bad" neighborhoods and the people who (like me) live in them. And I gotta tell ya, it's true that most of the panhandlers up on Oak Street are adult black men, etc. etc., but it's been at least twenty years since black people have bothered me on the street; the people who've made me unhappy and/or put me in the hospital have been at least as white as me, whether Nazis or cops. Is it just me or is the whole Urban Danger thing a bit over-rated? Should I start passing out brochures on "How To Be A White Person Waiting For A Bus In A Black Neighborhood" or something?
posted by davy at 8:34 PM on April 27, 2005
Am I the only one who immediately pulled up the reviews of my city?
No. Why do you ask?
posted by davy at 8:45 PM on April 27, 2005
No. Why do you ask?
posted by davy at 8:45 PM on April 27, 2005
[C]ertainly we're all going to have prejudices that we can't help, though I think if we try to be rational about realizing what those prejudices are, and how they affect our actions, it's easier to make progress.
This is true. Growing up in a lilywhite working class section of Baltimore, where in recent memory they firebombed a house a black family moved into, I got racism drummed into me from the jump -- and I'm sure there's a sizeable chunk of nastiness I just ain't been able to get rid of. The key is realizing that it is nasty, and doing what you can to counter it.
posted by davy at 8:55 PM on April 27, 2005
This is true. Growing up in a lilywhite working class section of Baltimore, where in recent memory they firebombed a house a black family moved into, I got racism drummed into me from the jump -- and I'm sure there's a sizeable chunk of nastiness I just ain't been able to get rid of. The key is realizing that it is nasty, and doing what you can to counter it.
posted by davy at 8:55 PM on April 27, 2005
Marsgrl200 (the girl scout) is decribed in her profile as "18 year old, Freshman at UF, aspiring photographer." She says her trip to Atlanta was in 2001, so she have been 14 at the time, and 16 when she shared her worthless opinion with the world.
Also, I understand why Manos posted this. I ride MARTA almost everyday, mostly the North and East lines, at all kinds of times, and have found its riders to behave in a similar fashion to riders of mass transit around the country; they mostly keep to themselves. Sure, every once in a while some ignorant, sheltered idiot will make an ignorant, sheltered remark. Like when I got off at the Reynoldtown/Inman Park station a few days ago.
For those of you not familiar with Atlanta neighborhoods and the MARTA stations that serve them, Inman Park is filled with hip young white people, Reynoldstown is filled with black people who have been there a while. The two neighborhoods are, literally, on the other side of the track from one another; the CSX/Norfolk Southern rail line seperates them. Each neighborhood has a walkway over the tracks to get from the MARTA station to the streets.
posted by TheSpook at 9:50 PM on April 27, 2005
Also, I understand why Manos posted this. I ride MARTA almost everyday, mostly the North and East lines, at all kinds of times, and have found its riders to behave in a similar fashion to riders of mass transit around the country; they mostly keep to themselves. Sure, every once in a while some ignorant, sheltered idiot will make an ignorant, sheltered remark. Like when I got off at the Reynoldtown/Inman Park station a few days ago.
For those of you not familiar with Atlanta neighborhoods and the MARTA stations that serve them, Inman Park is filled with hip young white people, Reynoldstown is filled with black people who have been there a while. The two neighborhoods are, literally, on the other side of the track from one another; the CSX/Norfolk Southern rail line seperates them. Each neighborhood has a walkway over the tracks to get from the MARTA station to the streets.
posted by TheSpook at 9:50 PM on April 27, 2005
I was on the Reynoldstown walkway when a black guy, probably in his 30s, walked by me and said, "Hey white boy, you goin' the wrong way." I said I was going to Reynoldstown and he responded by giving me a derisive laugh and saying, "Ain't no white people in Reynoldstown, you better turn around." Stupid, ignorant shit like that happens sometimes, so I kept walking.
When people who have lived a cloistered life get confronted with an unfamiliar element; the big, scary, majority african-american city for marsgrl200, and the scary gentrifying white man for Reynoldstown Guy. It's that same fear of the "other" that would make Marsgrl200 see a poor black neighborhood and think, "crack houses and hookers," instead of "I bet they have great boiled peanuts," or something else inane and harmless, if she found herself in a poor white neighborhood. It's what makes poor black trash in the cities harass girl scouts and extract the "cracker tax" from white people. It's what makes my friends from the white North Atlanta suburbs say things like, "I hate hate riding MARTA, its always late, the trains are filthy, and I'm always the only white person."
posted by TheSpook at 9:50 PM on April 27, 2005
When people who have lived a cloistered life get confronted with an unfamiliar element; the big, scary, majority african-american city for marsgrl200, and the scary gentrifying white man for Reynoldstown Guy. It's that same fear of the "other" that would make Marsgrl200 see a poor black neighborhood and think, "crack houses and hookers," instead of "I bet they have great boiled peanuts," or something else inane and harmless, if she found herself in a poor white neighborhood. It's what makes poor black trash in the cities harass girl scouts and extract the "cracker tax" from white people. It's what makes my friends from the white North Atlanta suburbs say things like, "I hate hate riding MARTA, its always late, the trains are filthy, and I'm always the only white person."
posted by TheSpook at 9:50 PM on April 27, 2005
Hey, I have had lotsa German Beer... A fine Beck's and Heinekin mix... feel free to send the thought police to my address.... If I was a Black professional; I would freely move to "Blacklanta" as it has been refered to in the popular press.
Working in the public schools in Austin, Texas (the other A town full of alternative lifestyle individuals) I am often; as are so many other teachers, the ONLY 'White' person/teacher in the ENTIRE school.
I am glad for my six years in the ARMY, particularly as a Spanish linguist, because it all falls into a "who cares" category in my mind. Others however, do notice.
With difference; comes hatred, whether from parents or observances. It is an interesting adventure I see every day. Most Whites in Austin are doing ok, the other (I HATE the very term) "races?" are not doing as well. No wonder so many minorities hate ?us White people?.
My comments on this post and a couple of dollars will get you a cup of coffee. Good luck to Atlanta, and to Austin, the other "A" town in the states.
P.S. Say, didn't the states save the world in 1917 and 1944? Please; to all the whiney boo hoos out there, accept my apologies for not being as good in the last five years. THX!
posted by buzzman at 10:09 PM on April 27, 2005
Working in the public schools in Austin, Texas (the other A town full
I am glad for my six years in the ARMY, particularly as a Spanish linguist, because it all falls into a "who cares" category in my mind. Others however, do notice.
With difference; comes hatred, whether from parents or observances. It is an interesting adventure I see every day. Most Whites in Austin are doing ok, the other (I HATE the very term) "races?" are not doing as well. No wonder so many minorities hate ?us White people?.
My comments on this post and a couple of dollars will get you a cup of coffee. Good luck to Atlanta, and to Austin, the other "A" town in the states.
P.S. Say, didn't the states save the world in 1917 and 1944? Please; to all the whiney boo hoos out there, accept my apologies for not being as good in the last five years. THX!
posted by buzzman at 10:09 PM on April 27, 2005
buzzman is a good friend of mine and I think he was just... overindulging a bit last night. What he should have done is invited me over to drink some of his beer and call in sick to work.
posted by beth at 7:49 AM on April 28, 2005
posted by beth at 7:49 AM on April 28, 2005
« Older ArticleBot Broohaha | Their programs control your bank account Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by squirrel at 12:21 AM on April 27, 2005