Van Gogh’s murderer “would do it again”
July 12, 2005 5:20 PM Subscribe
Van Gogh’s murderer “would do it again” Mohammed Bouyeri said that he had allowed himself to be led by the Islamic "law that orders me to cut off the head of anyone that insults Allah and the Prophet." Go ahead Mohammed, the West deserves this and Van Gogh did insult Allah so his death was justified....The worst that can happen to you Mohammed is a nice room in Dutch prison with TV and a Gym pass plus 3 meals a day free of cost !!!
This post was deleted for the following reason: link to white power site, over the top editorializing
Well no, he could get beaten to death a la Jeffery Dahmer ... this website is some kind of right-wing nationalist party? The backlash against radical islam really seems to be picking up steam. There were alarmist cover articles yesterday and today in the WSJ, and an editorial in the NY Sun (I know, who cares) praising France for taking a hard line and ridiculing Britain, and Mrs. Blair in particular, for letting girls wear full jilbabs to school.
posted by alexwoods at 5:31 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by alexwoods at 5:31 PM on July 12, 2005
"The backlash against radical islam really seems to be picking up steam."
It's only been since '72 in Munich.
posted by TetrisKid at 5:32 PM on July 12, 2005
It's only been since '72 in Munich.
posted by TetrisKid at 5:32 PM on July 12, 2005
The bottom line is religious fundamentalism
I'll go even further, if religious fundamentalist of all stripes, and political ideologues of all parties would just shut the fuck up and let regular people go about their lives, the world would be a much better place. Stop believing in solutions, that's the solution.
posted by jonmc at 5:42 PM on July 12, 2005
I'll go even further, if religious fundamentalist of all stripes, and political ideologues of all parties would just shut the fuck up and let regular people go about their lives, the world would be a much better place. Stop believing in solutions, that's the solution.
posted by jonmc at 5:42 PM on July 12, 2005
That's a pretty extremist point of view, jonmc. Don't you have any room in your heart for a little fervent fundamentalism?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:59 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:59 PM on July 12, 2005
I'll go even further, if religious fundamentalist of all stripes, and political ideologues of all parties would just shut the fuck up and let regular people go about their lives, the world would be a much better place. Stop believing in solutions, that's the solution.
posted by jonmc at 5:42 PM PST on July 12 [!]
So true. But what to do? How about this?
Death Penalty, then wrap him in pig skin so he can't go to heaven and get virgins. And use him as an example. "Commit heinious crimes against innocent citizens and no virgins for you!"
posted by snsranch at 6:03 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by jonmc at 5:42 PM PST on July 12 [!]
So true. But what to do? How about this?
Death Penalty, then wrap him in pig skin so he can't go to heaven and get virgins. And use him as an example. "Commit heinious crimes against innocent citizens and no virgins for you!"
posted by snsranch at 6:03 PM on July 12, 2005
Whoa - the British Nationalist Party? The "We are 100% racist, yes" party? Please, if you're going to FPP a Dutch news story, in the future please try to at least link to the BBC, Expatica or Radio Netherlands for an English-language source.
Also, previous discussion.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:03 PM on July 12, 2005
Also, previous discussion.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:03 PM on July 12, 2005
The problem seems to be that the most clueful people are those who don't think they know what's right for everyone else, and the obvious chiasmus of that statement.
posted by freebird at 6:04 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by freebird at 6:04 PM on July 12, 2005
jonmc, the USA was sorta kinda founded by fundamentalists. The Puritans were some hardcore peeps, just ask those they hanged and incinerated for various reasons.
The problem isn't really fundamentalism. What drives people to do these kinds of acts goes far beneath religion. Islam, in a sense, is just a scapegoat for this guy. Similar acts have "sprung" from various sources from political ideology to racisim to plain old greed.
posted by nixerman at 6:07 PM on July 12, 2005
The problem isn't really fundamentalism. What drives people to do these kinds of acts goes far beneath religion. Islam, in a sense, is just a scapegoat for this guy. Similar acts have "sprung" from various sources from political ideology to racisim to plain old greed.
posted by nixerman at 6:07 PM on July 12, 2005
jonmc, the USA was sorta kinda founded by fundamentalists. The Puritans were some hardcore peeps, just ask those they hanged and incinerated for various reasons.
And crazy fronteirsmen who just wanted to be left the fuck alone, and libertarian intellectuals like Jefferson. It's that outlaw/sherrif dichotomy that's had this country by the balls from the beginning.
Islam, in a sense, is just a scapegoat for this guy. Similar acts have "sprung" from various sources from political ideology to racisim to plain old greed.
Agreed. It's not decent compassionate Muslims, Christians or whatever that I have a problem with. I love reasonable religious folk really I do. It's people who try to remake the world according to some utopian vision (religious or political) who scare (and anger) the hell outta me.
posted by jonmc at 6:13 PM on July 12, 2005
And crazy fronteirsmen who just wanted to be left the fuck alone, and libertarian intellectuals like Jefferson. It's that outlaw/sherrif dichotomy that's had this country by the balls from the beginning.
Islam, in a sense, is just a scapegoat for this guy. Similar acts have "sprung" from various sources from political ideology to racisim to plain old greed.
Agreed. It's not decent compassionate Muslims, Christians or whatever that I have a problem with. I love reasonable religious folk really I do. It's people who try to remake the world according to some utopian vision (religious or political) who scare (and anger) the hell outta me.
posted by jonmc at 6:13 PM on July 12, 2005
The problem is whackos of any kind, creed or race.
Whether they’re muslim, christian or jedi is besides the point.
posted by signal at 6:31 PM on July 12, 2005
Whether they’re muslim, christian or jedi is besides the point.
posted by signal at 6:31 PM on July 12, 2005
nixerman, just so my last post dosen't sound too much like an attack, what bothers me is this: whenever an atrocity like this is commited, otherwise reasonable people will get tend to equivocate (is that the word I'm looking for) about it. If the psycho is a leftist, they'll say "I don't agree with what he did, but it's only because of blablabla which is even worse" if they happen to be leftist. Same goes for christians, muslims, rightists, whatever.
I still cling to the futile hope that most of the human race, regardless of religious or ideological bent can come to some kind of consensus, without resorting to insanity like this guy. The real war is not between the reasonable strains of difference, but between the sane people and the fanatics among us. We all have to stop being apologists for them.
posted by jonmc at 6:42 PM on July 12, 2005
I still cling to the futile hope that most of the human race, regardless of religious or ideological bent can come to some kind of consensus, without resorting to insanity like this guy. The real war is not between the reasonable strains of difference, but between the sane people and the fanatics among us. We all have to stop being apologists for them.
posted by jonmc at 6:42 PM on July 12, 2005
Could this post please be formulated in a less objective, more editorialized way? I'm not sure I understand the author's point of view.
posted by papakwanz at 6:45 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by papakwanz at 6:45 PM on July 12, 2005
Whoa - the British Nationalist Party? The "We are 100% racist, yes" party? Please, if you're going to FPP a Dutch news story, in the future please try to at least link to the BBC, Expatica or Radio Netherlands for an English-language source.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:03 PM PST on July 12
I'm not taking sides but at least the bnp showed a photo of Van Gogh dead on the ground. It's important, in my opinion, to get an idea of what happened. That picture made it more real for me.
posted by Dean Keaton at 6:47 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:03 PM PST on July 12
I'm not taking sides but at least the bnp showed a photo of Van Gogh dead on the ground. It's important, in my opinion, to get an idea of what happened. That picture made it more real for me.
posted by Dean Keaton at 6:47 PM on July 12, 2005
Atheism is the one true love.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:49 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:49 PM on July 12, 2005
I formally insult Allah.
posted by aramaic at 6:21 PM PST on July 12 [!]
Atheism is the one true love.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:49 PM PST on July 12 [!]
Well if it's gonna be that kinda party, I'm gonna stick my dick in the mashed potatos.
posted by snsranch at 6:56 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by aramaic at 6:21 PM PST on July 12 [!]
Atheism is the one true love.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:49 PM PST on July 12 [!]
Well if it's gonna be that kinda party, I'm gonna stick my dick in the mashed potatos.
posted by snsranch at 6:56 PM on July 12, 2005
The worst that can happen to you Mohammed is a nice room in Dutch prison with TV and a Gym pass plus 3 meals a day free of cost !!!
but no virgins.
posted by quonsar at 6:59 PM on July 12, 2005
but no virgins.
posted by quonsar at 6:59 PM on July 12, 2005
The BNP are not some fun bunch of nationalist wackos, they are out-and-out Hitler wannabes.
posted by carter at 7:01 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by carter at 7:01 PM on July 12, 2005
One thing I've always wondered: so, you blow up a bunch of people that don't believe in Allah, which is cool, and then you go to heaven, where there are all these sweet-ass virgins everywhere, right? But then what do you do? Do you do em? Because after you do em, they're not virgins anymore. In fact, they just did the sex act with some guy they just met. Basically, a total stranger. God! Those dirty, dirty whores! Or maybe you have an endless supply of virgins. Yeah, that'd be sweet. Just cart in another 90 virgins or whatever, get your fill, then ship em out and wait for the new batch.
All you assholes that insult Allah, you just don't get it. The virgins, man. The virgins.
posted by billysumday at 7:05 PM on July 12, 2005
All you assholes that insult Allah, you just don't get it. The virgins, man. The virgins.
posted by billysumday at 7:05 PM on July 12, 2005
Aren't the BNP more pro-white/ pro European culture etc than racist as such? Seems like an important distinction, particularly in light of the racial pride movements of arabs, latinos, blacks, etc. Or is it only when you're white and proud that it becomes racist? Meh.
I'm not an Englishman, so I don't really know much about them -- I did however, follow the last election loosely and the BNP didn't seem all that "NAZI." They made terrible commercials, that I know.
posted by undule at 7:06 PM on July 12, 2005
I'm not an Englishman, so I don't really know much about them -- I did however, follow the last election loosely and the BNP didn't seem all that "NAZI." They made terrible commercials, that I know.
posted by undule at 7:06 PM on July 12, 2005
billsumday,
maybe they have particularly elastic hymens?
posted by undule at 7:08 PM on July 12, 2005
maybe they have particularly elastic hymens?
posted by undule at 7:08 PM on July 12, 2005
The Puritans were some hardcore peeps, just ask those they hanged and incinerated for various reasons.
I get so tired of hearing people use the Puritans as the exemplar of American colonial Settlement. Let me remind you that during the colonial period New England was economically virtually insignificant as far as the British empire was concerned, and that the majority of our 'Founding Fathers' came from the Tobacco producing regions of Virginia and the Carolinas. Regions not even remotely close to religious zealotry.
posted by Dr_Johnson at 7:11 PM on July 12, 2005
I get so tired of hearing people use the Puritans as the exemplar of American colonial Settlement. Let me remind you that during the colonial period New England was economically virtually insignificant as far as the British empire was concerned, and that the majority of our 'Founding Fathers' came from the Tobacco producing regions of Virginia and the Carolinas. Regions not even remotely close to religious zealotry.
posted by Dr_Johnson at 7:11 PM on July 12, 2005
One thing I've always wondered: so, you blow up a bunch of people that don't believe in Allah, which is cool, and then you go to heaven, where there are all these sweet-ass virgins everywhere, right? But then what do you do? Do you do em? Because after you do em, they're not virgins anymore. In fact, they just did the sex act with some guy they just met. Basically, a total stranger. God! Those dirty, dirty whores! Or maybe you have an endless supply of virgins. Yeah, that'd be sweet. Just cart in another 90 virgins or whatever, get your fill, then ship em out and wait for the new batch.
All you assholes that insult Allah, you just don't get it. The virgins, man. The virgins.
maybe they have particularly elastic hymens?
These are profoundly insulting statements, even as a joke. I don't have any particular fondness for the fellow that did this or the rationale that guided him, but I enjoy it when posters try to keep a modicum of decorum when death or tragedy is involved.
posted by Dr_Johnson at 7:15 PM on July 12, 2005
All you assholes that insult Allah, you just don't get it. The virgins, man. The virgins.
maybe they have particularly elastic hymens?
These are profoundly insulting statements, even as a joke. I don't have any particular fondness for the fellow that did this or the rationale that guided him, but I enjoy it when posters try to keep a modicum of decorum when death or tragedy is involved.
posted by Dr_Johnson at 7:15 PM on July 12, 2005
I formally insult Allah.
That's not very nice. Be nice.
I agree with Dr Johnson, it's a sad event, show some decorum.
I will give a response though: there are multiple classical readings of what happens in heaven, most of which indicate it is in effect only partially describable as it exists beyond the realms of four dimensional human comprehension (seriously). The interpretations with the 72 virgins etc tend to have explanations tending towards either a) no time as we view it (time being contingent on creation) or b) magically repairing hymens. Hurs are not humans either under these interpretations, more automota. I suppose that does it for some - each to their own.
I would say that the BNP are a hate-filled and essentially racist organisation. Funnily they blamed Islam and not the muslims in their recent press articles (before deciding to become Qu'ranic scholars and showing us what the Qu'ran/Islam *gasp* "really" says on violence/terrorism in their recent material).
posted by Mossy at 7:27 PM on July 12, 2005
That's not very nice. Be nice.
I agree with Dr Johnson, it's a sad event, show some decorum.
I will give a response though: there are multiple classical readings of what happens in heaven, most of which indicate it is in effect only partially describable as it exists beyond the realms of four dimensional human comprehension (seriously). The interpretations with the 72 virgins etc tend to have explanations tending towards either a) no time as we view it (time being contingent on creation) or b) magically repairing hymens. Hurs are not humans either under these interpretations, more automota. I suppose that does it for some - each to their own.
I would say that the BNP are a hate-filled and essentially racist organisation. Funnily they blamed Islam and not the muslims in their recent press articles (before deciding to become Qu'ranic scholars and showing us what the Qu'ran/Islam *gasp* "really" says on violence/terrorism in their recent material).
posted by Mossy at 7:27 PM on July 12, 2005
Who's he insulting? Virgins?
posted by myeviltwin at 7:31 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by myeviltwin at 7:31 PM on July 12, 2005
I refuse to click through the the BNP website for "news". Or in other words, what goodnewsfortheinsane said.
Anyway, it's stupid and offensive to have a go at islam because of one particularly deluded fool.
posted by wilful at 7:36 PM on July 12, 2005
Anyway, it's stupid and offensive to have a go at islam because of one particularly deluded fool.
posted by wilful at 7:36 PM on July 12, 2005
magically repairing hymens
I looked and looked and couldn't find this in the Dungeon Master's Guide, the Monster Manual or even Fiend Folio. Must be a different set of holy books...
posted by gwint at 7:37 PM on July 12, 2005
I looked and looked and couldn't find this in the Dungeon Master's Guide, the Monster Manual or even Fiend Folio. Must be a different set of holy books...
posted by gwint at 7:37 PM on July 12, 2005
Fundamentalism is not the reason; fundamentalism is the excuse. Human viciousness is the reason. As long as we continue to deny this aspect of ourselves, it will continue to rule us.
posted by SPrintF at 7:44 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by SPrintF at 7:44 PM on July 12, 2005
magically repairing hymens
I looked and looked and couldn't find this in the Dungeon Master's Guide, the Monster Manual or even Fiend Folio. Must be a different set of holy books...
What DM wouldn't allow it.
posted by nervousfritz at 8:00 PM on July 12, 2005
I looked and looked and couldn't find this in the Dungeon Master's Guide, the Monster Manual or even Fiend Folio. Must be a different set of holy books...
What DM wouldn't allow it.
posted by nervousfritz at 8:00 PM on July 12, 2005
Anyway, it's stupid and offensive to have a go at islam because of one particularly deluded fool
No kidding. I think we all get that now.
Now back to the business of "having a go" at radical Islam.
posted by dsquid at 8:02 PM on July 12, 2005
No kidding. I think we all get that now.
Now back to the business of "having a go" at radical Islam.
posted by dsquid at 8:02 PM on July 12, 2005
I'm sure there are enough Dutch right-wingers in those jails to make life a wee bit less comfortable for Bouyeri than the submitter anticipates.
As for this guy's lack of remorse, is anyone actually impressed with the "remorses" and the "finding God" that most cons express, coincidentally right around their sentencing date?
posted by clevershark at 8:09 PM on July 12, 2005
As for this guy's lack of remorse, is anyone actually impressed with the "remorses" and the "finding God" that most cons express, coincidentally right around their sentencing date?
posted by clevershark at 8:09 PM on July 12, 2005
It's a shame psychoanalysis has lost all credibility. It might have had something interesting to say about the whole death/sex/virgin thing. But whenever I start thinking about it I just get .. so .... tired.
I wonder, dy think there's intoxicants available in heaven, along with the virgins? What about usury? Probably yes on the intoxicants but maybe no on the usury. See, it all boils down to economics.
posted by Hobbacocka at 8:10 PM on July 12, 2005
I wonder, dy think there's intoxicants available in heaven, along with the virgins? What about usury? Probably yes on the intoxicants but maybe no on the usury. See, it all boils down to economics.
posted by Hobbacocka at 8:10 PM on July 12, 2005
I formally insult Allah.
Well, fuck the father, the son and the holy ghost, then, while we're at it. If we're condoning sophomoric crap posts like this (I'm looking at you, mathowie), then it's fair and balanced all the way, for me.
The christian shits have as much to answer for as their allah-loving brethren. The world might be a better place with all of them gone. Unfortunately, advocating ridding ourselves of the god people risks making me the same as them -- killer monkeys who believe in invisible men in the sky, and positively ululate with blood-fever about the idea of killing those who believe in a different invisible man.
Plus, the retrograde god-troglodytes are still in the majority, and the logistics of ridding ourselves of them are just too daunting. But carry on, I say, because they're doing a pretty fine job of thinning each other's ranks without anyone else's help at all, and hopefully are cleaning up the gene pool in the process.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:10 PM on July 12, 2005
Well, fuck the father, the son and the holy ghost, then, while we're at it. If we're condoning sophomoric crap posts like this (I'm looking at you, mathowie), then it's fair and balanced all the way, for me.
The christian shits have as much to answer for as their allah-loving brethren. The world might be a better place with all of them gone. Unfortunately, advocating ridding ourselves of the god people risks making me the same as them -- killer monkeys who believe in invisible men in the sky, and positively ululate with blood-fever about the idea of killing those who believe in a different invisible man.
Plus, the retrograde god-troglodytes are still in the majority, and the logistics of ridding ourselves of them are just too daunting. But carry on, I say, because they're doing a pretty fine job of thinning each other's ranks without anyone else's help at all, and hopefully are cleaning up the gene pool in the process.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:10 PM on July 12, 2005
So, where's the next FPP going to come from? Stormfront perhaps? Jesus wept.
posted by clevershark at 8:14 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by clevershark at 8:14 PM on July 12, 2005
So we sh*t on a people and a religion because a few misguided were intolerant. This has to be a joke, this blue is more intelligent than that, no?
KKK was Christian, at least their version of it. We have todays radical Christians in this country. Somehow we tolerate them, personally I could be paid a quarter to educate them.
A vast many of the leaders of the Muslim faith around the world have denounced the tactics in London. I don't think this thread even comes close to the level those leaders have demonstrated.
My name is Fluffy and I am a Buddhist. I paid for and support this message.
posted by fluffycreature at 8:14 PM on July 12, 2005
KKK was Christian, at least their version of it. We have todays radical Christians in this country. Somehow we tolerate them, personally I could be paid a quarter to educate them.
A vast many of the leaders of the Muslim faith around the world have denounced the tactics in London. I don't think this thread even comes close to the level those leaders have demonstrated.
My name is Fluffy and I am a Buddhist. I paid for and support this message.
posted by fluffycreature at 8:14 PM on July 12, 2005
I was hoping this post would be about radical Islamist time travel.
posted by monocyte at 8:17 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by monocyte at 8:17 PM on July 12, 2005
Aren't the BNP more pro-white/ pro European culture etc than racist as such.
They're a bunch of racist thugs, with a veneer of political respectability.
posted by carter at 8:22 PM on July 12, 2005
They're a bunch of racist thugs, with a veneer of political respectability.
posted by carter at 8:22 PM on July 12, 2005
Oops forgot to credit the image to Searchlight magazine.
posted by carter at 8:32 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by carter at 8:32 PM on July 12, 2005
The christian shits have as much to answer for as their allah-loving brethren
Allah is just the Arabic word for God, used by arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims alike to refer to their deity.
And really, this fair and balanced posturing is phonier than Fox. It's not like anyone feels the need to bring up how bat-shit insane parts of Islam are in the innumerable Christians-are-bad posts on MeFi, so what's the point in bringing up Christianity here?
posted by boaz at 8:34 PM on July 12, 2005
Allah is just the Arabic word for God, used by arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims alike to refer to their deity.
And really, this fair and balanced posturing is phonier than Fox. It's not like anyone feels the need to bring up how bat-shit insane parts of Islam are in the innumerable Christians-are-bad posts on MeFi, so what's the point in bringing up Christianity here?
posted by boaz at 8:34 PM on July 12, 2005
I agree it's bad form to insult the religion, especially when misunderstanding is giving the idea of killing other people for your conviction a crutch.
I have a serious question: Why was this man killed? Not some snarky one liner, but what exactly did he do to get it? Did Bouyeri act alone? Was he told to do it by a group of other people, or did he act alone?
If by other people, what were they trying to get out of it?
posted by Dean Keaton at 8:36 PM on July 12, 2005
I have a serious question: Why was this man killed? Not some snarky one liner, but what exactly did he do to get it? Did Bouyeri act alone? Was he told to do it by a group of other people, or did he act alone?
If by other people, what were they trying to get out of it?
posted by Dean Keaton at 8:36 PM on July 12, 2005
Allah is just the Arabic word for God, used by arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims alike to refer to their deity.
I know. Thus my broad, broad brush.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:47 PM on July 12, 2005
I know. Thus my broad, broad brush.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:47 PM on July 12, 2005
Jumpin' jehosaphat. This post still exists? Wtf, Matt and Jessamyn? WTfuckingF? The single biggest problem MeFi has right now is crap editorializing on the front page; if crap editorializing plus a single link to a news story that's available everywhere but posted to Mefi from a racist site doesn't qualify for deletion, then what the fuck does?
posted by mediareport at 8:51 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by mediareport at 8:51 PM on July 12, 2005
I don't feel your pain.
Respect for women? No? Feel the hand of Kali.
posted by gorgor_balabala at 8:51 PM on July 12, 2005
Respect for women? No? Feel the hand of Kali.
posted by gorgor_balabala at 8:51 PM on July 12, 2005
Aargh. Sorry for the explosion; I lost it for a second. I've flagged the post and will now move on.
*grits teeth, moves on*
posted by mediareport at 8:54 PM on July 12, 2005
*grits teeth, moves on*
posted by mediareport at 8:54 PM on July 12, 2005
Perhaps this FPP will get pulled if we start to discuss the Rove situation in the thread.
posted by clevershark at 8:54 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by clevershark at 8:54 PM on July 12, 2005
Monocyte, actually it is about Islamic time travel. They're trying to bring the 8th Century up to the 21st. Sort of a global search and replace. I, for one, don't intend to be edited.
Overall, yeah, Christianity's had it's odd periods. But after the Reformation things quieted down, the Inquisition no longer burns people as heretics, and the KKK's out of the lynching business and into mowing grass at trailer parks for minimum wage. Plus, I can't even remember the last time a radical Baptist blew up a busload of Jews or targeted a nightclub or hijacked an airplane.
So it looks like Christianity, aside from the occasional nut, has it's shit together pretty much and they've stopped killing people. 'Live and let live', that whole free will thing - you want to go to hell, well, you'll be preached at until you either die of boredom or old age or convert or you shut the door on them. They won't drag you outside and hack off your head for being an unbeliever.
The Moral Majority made their power grab in the '80s, failed to establish a theocracy, and there's no indication that they could gather the clout to do it again. So that's a non-issue. The people rejected it, there's no Scudder-like charismatic like Falwell or the other televangilists grabbing headlines. The folks that Fluffy pointed out are so hateful that they alienate the vast, vast majority of people. They're not charismatic, they're not attractive - they're an annoyance and not a threat. Another ten, twenty years they'll have inbred so badly that their kids will have three heads each.
But that's not really here or there, except to jump up and down shrieking that Christianity's just as bad as radical Islam. It may have been - but it isn't now and shows no signs of it again.
So when is the reformation going to be hitting Fundi Islam? THAT's the bigger question, not whether Christianity or Islam is worse. And is Fundi Islam ever gonna learn to play nice with the unbelievers?
---------
On preview - Dean Keaton, Theo Van Gogh produced a movie that this murdering turd felt defamed Islam. That was sufficient justification for him to shoot Theo six times, damn near decapitate him, and then use the knife to pin a five-page screed to his chest.
Here's the Wiki entry on it.
JB
posted by JB71 at 8:58 PM on July 12, 2005
Overall, yeah, Christianity's had it's odd periods. But after the Reformation things quieted down, the Inquisition no longer burns people as heretics, and the KKK's out of the lynching business and into mowing grass at trailer parks for minimum wage. Plus, I can't even remember the last time a radical Baptist blew up a busload of Jews or targeted a nightclub or hijacked an airplane.
So it looks like Christianity, aside from the occasional nut, has it's shit together pretty much and they've stopped killing people. 'Live and let live', that whole free will thing - you want to go to hell, well, you'll be preached at until you either die of boredom or old age or convert or you shut the door on them. They won't drag you outside and hack off your head for being an unbeliever.
The Moral Majority made their power grab in the '80s, failed to establish a theocracy, and there's no indication that they could gather the clout to do it again. So that's a non-issue. The people rejected it, there's no Scudder-like charismatic like Falwell or the other televangilists grabbing headlines. The folks that Fluffy pointed out are so hateful that they alienate the vast, vast majority of people. They're not charismatic, they're not attractive - they're an annoyance and not a threat. Another ten, twenty years they'll have inbred so badly that their kids will have three heads each.
But that's not really here or there, except to jump up and down shrieking that Christianity's just as bad as radical Islam. It may have been - but it isn't now and shows no signs of it again.
So when is the reformation going to be hitting Fundi Islam? THAT's the bigger question, not whether Christianity or Islam is worse. And is Fundi Islam ever gonna learn to play nice with the unbelievers?
---------
On preview - Dean Keaton, Theo Van Gogh produced a movie that this murdering turd felt defamed Islam. That was sufficient justification for him to shoot Theo six times, damn near decapitate him, and then use the knife to pin a five-page screed to his chest.
Here's the Wiki entry on it.
JB
posted by JB71 at 8:58 PM on July 12, 2005
TetrisKid: "It's only been since '72 in Munich."
I know this is a little late in the game, but weren't the terrorists at the '72 Olympic games after recognition for the Palestinian struggle, rather than Muslim extremists?
posted by Hackworth at 9:05 PM on July 12, 2005
I know this is a little late in the game, but weren't the terrorists at the '72 Olympic games after recognition for the Palestinian struggle, rather than Muslim extremists?
posted by Hackworth at 9:05 PM on July 12, 2005
Who wants virgins anyway?
posted by thirteenkiller at 9:05 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by thirteenkiller at 9:05 PM on July 12, 2005
and to think some of you can't bear to see people pulled off the battlefield with his mentality in Guantanamo.
posted by cpchester at 9:14 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by cpchester at 9:14 PM on July 12, 2005
and the KKK's out of the lynching business and into mowing grass at trailer parks for minimum wage
I'm sorry, but that is far more recent than the Reformation.
So it looks like Christianity, aside from the occasional nut, has it's shit together pretty much and they've stopped killing people.
I think that on this point we can comfortably withhold judgment on that for the time being. At the very least we can try to avoid the literal 'holier than thou' line of discussion. Truly fruitless and embarrassing.
posted by Dr_Johnson at 9:14 PM on July 12, 2005
I'm sorry, but that is far more recent than the Reformation.
So it looks like Christianity, aside from the occasional nut, has it's shit together pretty much and they've stopped killing people.
I think that on this point we can comfortably withhold judgment on that for the time being. At the very least we can try to avoid the literal 'holier than thou' line of discussion. Truly fruitless and embarrassing.
posted by Dr_Johnson at 9:14 PM on July 12, 2005
Who wants virgins anyway?
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:05 AM EST on July 13 [!]
Well, since you asked, I'd prefer women with experience, but if Heaven is non-ordinary reality, and isn't influenced by physics or laws that govern the universe, then temporality doesn't necessarily come into play... if one has an eternity to spend with a flock of dewy, nubile, voluptuous, lush virgins, one can corrupt and teach them to be talented little sex-puppets in no time, thus enjoying their doe-eyed innocence, and then later, having willing and trained nymphettes that know all the tricks one cares to teach them.
just sayin'.
posted by exlotuseater at 9:27 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:05 AM EST on July 13 [!]
Well, since you asked, I'd prefer women with experience, but if Heaven is non-ordinary reality, and isn't influenced by physics or laws that govern the universe, then temporality doesn't necessarily come into play... if one has an eternity to spend with a flock of dewy, nubile, voluptuous, lush virgins, one can corrupt and teach them to be talented little sex-puppets in no time, thus enjoying their doe-eyed innocence, and then later, having willing and trained nymphettes that know all the tricks one cares to teach them.
just sayin'.
posted by exlotuseater at 9:27 PM on July 12, 2005
Monocyte, actually it is about Islamic time travel. They're trying to bring the 8th Century up to the 21st.
That's kind of cool.
if we start to discuss the Rove situation in the thread.
We're skirting that issue.
posted by nervousfritz at 9:28 PM on July 12, 2005
That's kind of cool.
if we start to discuss the Rove situation in the thread.
We're skirting that issue.
posted by nervousfritz at 9:28 PM on July 12, 2005
cpchester
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm happy to see people with this mentality locked up in Gitmo.
I'm not happy to see us drop to their level by torturing and degrading them. And I'm not happy that we don't bother to hold trials to see if they're just innocent bystanders. Are you?
posted by tyllwin at 9:30 PM on July 12, 2005
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm happy to see people with this mentality locked up in Gitmo.
I'm not happy to see us drop to their level by torturing and degrading them. And I'm not happy that we don't bother to hold trials to see if they're just innocent bystanders. Are you?
posted by tyllwin at 9:30 PM on July 12, 2005
i really object to people linking to hate sites, especially under the guise of 'news'.
the bnp are not far right, they are neo-nazi.
i would like bureaustyle to wxplain why he thought this was appropriate.
here are a few quotes from BNP leaders:
“Mein Kampf is my bible” (Mein Kampf is a book written by Hitler in which he set out his Nazi philosophy and practice.) John Tyndall, BNP founder and former leader.
“The sick minds who would have us believe that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz are completely twisted.” Tony Lecomber, number two in the BNP.
“I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat…I have reached the conclusion that the ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter day witch-hysteria.” Nick Griffin, BNP leader.
“Many who feel that Hitler was right do not believe it is safe yet to state such views openly. But times will change.” John Tyndall, BNP founder and former leader.
posted by quarsan at 10:27 PM on July 12, 2005
the bnp are not far right, they are neo-nazi.
i would like bureaustyle to wxplain why he thought this was appropriate.
here are a few quotes from BNP leaders:
“Mein Kampf is my bible” (Mein Kampf is a book written by Hitler in which he set out his Nazi philosophy and practice.) John Tyndall, BNP founder and former leader.
“The sick minds who would have us believe that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz are completely twisted.” Tony Lecomber, number two in the BNP.
“I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat…I have reached the conclusion that the ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter day witch-hysteria.” Nick Griffin, BNP leader.
“Many who feel that Hitler was right do not believe it is safe yet to state such views openly. But times will change.” John Tyndall, BNP founder and former leader.
posted by quarsan at 10:27 PM on July 12, 2005
I'm sure there are enough Dutch right-wingers in those jails to make life a wee bit less comfortable for Bouyeri than the submitter anticipates.
Funny you should mention that. Actually, right-of-center Dutch Member of Parliament Geert Wilders has had to live in a maximum security jail cell for the past many months, the same jail cell originally used to house the Lockerbie bombers. Why? Because he talks about restricting immigration to the Netherlands and actually talks openly about the problem of radical Islam in the Netherlands. For this, the Dutch police admit that they cannot offer him adequate security from the Jihadists who openly call for his death, and so the only place he can live safely is a jailhouse.
But at least he's still in the Netherlands. His fellow MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former Muslim who speaks out against violence towards women in the Muslim community (and who co-wrote Van Gogh's short documentary "Submission" for which Van Gogh was killed by Bouyeri), actually has had to be put up at an American Air Force base in Maine because there was nowhere in the Netherlands they felt was safe enough to keep her from the Jihadists. She now lives on a Ducth naval base.
(Both Wilders and Hirsi Ali have already been targeted in an actual operation by Dutch Muslim Jihadists, caught with grenades (among other things) at The Hague. Actually, one of the alleged perps was a Dutch-American teenager. His family had converted.)
As for what Bouyeri faces in prison--well, the vast majority of the people in Dutch jails are immigrants, many of them Muslims:
Or there's this:
So, no, I think bureaustyle's assessment is entirely correct: Bouyeri may end up a pampered hero in a posh jail for life.
I mean, if even the schoolkids love him...
posted by Asparagirl at 10:30 PM on July 12, 2005
Funny you should mention that. Actually, right-of-center Dutch Member of Parliament Geert Wilders has had to live in a maximum security jail cell for the past many months, the same jail cell originally used to house the Lockerbie bombers. Why? Because he talks about restricting immigration to the Netherlands and actually talks openly about the problem of radical Islam in the Netherlands. For this, the Dutch police admit that they cannot offer him adequate security from the Jihadists who openly call for his death, and so the only place he can live safely is a jailhouse.
But at least he's still in the Netherlands. His fellow MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former Muslim who speaks out against violence towards women in the Muslim community (and who co-wrote Van Gogh's short documentary "Submission" for which Van Gogh was killed by Bouyeri), actually has had to be put up at an American Air Force base in Maine because there was nowhere in the Netherlands they felt was safe enough to keep her from the Jihadists. She now lives on a Ducth naval base.
(Both Wilders and Hirsi Ali have already been targeted in an actual operation by Dutch Muslim Jihadists, caught with grenades (among other things) at The Hague. Actually, one of the alleged perps was a Dutch-American teenager. His family had converted.)
As for what Bouyeri faces in prison--well, the vast majority of the people in Dutch jails are immigrants, many of them Muslims:
"At the beginning of the 1980s, there were approximately 4,000 prisoners in the Netherlands. Today, this number has risen to 16,500. Apart from eastern Europe, only Britain, Spain and Portugal have a higher percentage of prisoners. More than half of the prisoners in Holland are immigrants. Thus, the proportion of jailed immigrants is far higher than the proportion of immigrants in the total population."(from a Socialist website, no less)
Or there's this:
"Said Mr. Wilders: "In the last 30 years, the Netherlands population has grown from 13 million to 16 million, about 25 percent, but the immigrant population has grown from 160,000 to 1.6 million -- 1,000 percent. Ninety percent of our prison population is immigrants."(from the Washington Times)
...
[But] Netherlands' Central Statistical Office shows that about 50 percent, not 90 percent, of the prison population is foreign. And Mr. Wilders' 1.6 million figure can only be reached by including second- and third-generation children of immigrants, who were born in Holland and are citizens..."
So, no, I think bureaustyle's assessment is entirely correct: Bouyeri may end up a pampered hero in a posh jail for life.
I mean, if even the schoolkids love him...
posted by Asparagirl at 10:30 PM on July 12, 2005
I know this is a little late in the game, but weren't the terrorists at the '72 Olympic games after recognition for the Palestinian struggle, rather than Muslim extremists?
Well, yeah.
The Munich operation was ordered by Yasser Arafat and carried out by Fatah, Arafat's faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).
posted by y2karl at 10:33 PM on July 12, 2005
Well, yeah.
The Munich operation was ordered by Yasser Arafat and carried out by Fatah, Arafat's faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).
posted by y2karl at 10:33 PM on July 12, 2005
Wikipedia page on The Hofstad Network, the informal fundamentalist Islamist group to which Bouyeri and others (including the Dutch-American teenager mentioned above, Jason Walters) belonged:
posted by Asparagirl at 10:52 PM on July 12, 2005
"The network is said to have links to networks in Spain and Belgium. The Syrian Redouan al-Issar is the suspected spiritual leader of the group. Among the known members of the group are Mohammed Bouyeri, the suspect of murdering Dutch film director Theo van Gogh, and Samir Azzouz, suspected of planning terrorist attacks on the Dutch parliament, Schiphol Airport, the Dutch main airport, and a nuclear reactor. The group is influenced by the ideology of Takfir wal-Hijra..."Takfir wal-Hijra is "said to be allied to Al-Qaeda". Zawahiri, Al Qaeda's (and Bin Laden's) #2 man is a member, which makes sense as he's Egyptian and so is the origin of the group.
posted by Asparagirl at 10:52 PM on July 12, 2005
aramaic writes "I formally insult Allah."
Well that just lacks credibility when you capitalize allah.
posted by peacay at 11:06 PM on July 12, 2005
Well that just lacks credibility when you capitalize allah.
posted by peacay at 11:06 PM on July 12, 2005
Jeez. When did metafilter turn into this scary place where uninformed political opinion, racism, and nonsensical wankery were the order of the day?
Oh.
Right.
posted by seanyboy at 11:12 PM on July 12, 2005
Oh.
Right.
posted by seanyboy at 11:12 PM on July 12, 2005
JB writes: "So it looks like Christianity, aside from the occasional nut, has it's shit together pretty much and they've stopped killing people."
Are you really so sure about that?
posted by washburn at 11:32 PM on July 12, 2005
Are you really so sure about that?
posted by washburn at 11:32 PM on July 12, 2005
It is sad that superstition still holds so much sway in the world.
posted by arse_hat at 11:38 PM on July 12, 2005
posted by arse_hat at 11:38 PM on July 12, 2005
A one paragraph rant with a single link to the fucking BNP!
Matt, are you high?
posted by fullerine at 1:10 AM on July 13, 2005
Matt, are you high?
posted by fullerine at 1:10 AM on July 13, 2005
hmm, the smell of a link to the BNP site in the morning, just what you need to wake up good and proper, eh?
*stumbles out confused*
posted by funambulist at 1:35 AM on July 13, 2005
*stumbles out confused*
posted by funambulist at 1:35 AM on July 13, 2005
A link to the BNP on Mefi? the Out and Out Nazi bnp? The people who beat up my photographer uncle for taking photos of one of their demos? The people who firebombed the Northern Star offices for publishing photos of their demos (after stealing the paper's address book)? The people who've already tried to hijack the london bombings for their own fascist aims?
Fucking great. right now the last thing we want to do is give bastards like this any airtime.
posted by handee at 1:49 AM on July 13, 2005
Fucking great. right now the last thing we want to do is give bastards like this any airtime.
posted by handee at 1:49 AM on July 13, 2005
The christian shits have as much to answer for as their allah-loving brethren.
Stavros, you're a twat.
posted by FieldingGoodney at 2:44 AM on July 13, 2005
Stavros, you're a twat.
posted by FieldingGoodney at 2:44 AM on July 13, 2005
Nah, I'm more of a dick, I thought we decided.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:46 AM on July 13, 2005
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:46 AM on July 13, 2005
The fact that the BNP link slipped under the editorial radar is a testament to how little people know about British political history, but that's fine, not everybody can know everything about every countries political fascist class.
The irony is a use of this link by people who may have Zionist and/or Neo-Conservative sympathies. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, I guess.
Oh, and if one were to look at history, the christian shits do have as much to answer for as their allah-loving brethren.. But they're predominantly white so it's probably OK, for this thread...
posted by gsb at 2:50 AM on July 13, 2005
The irony is a use of this link by people who may have Zionist and/or Neo-Conservative sympathies. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, I guess.
Oh, and if one were to look at history, the christian shits do have as much to answer for as their allah-loving brethren.. But they're predominantly white so it's probably OK, for this thread...
posted by gsb at 2:50 AM on July 13, 2005
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I don't think it's right to celebrate someone going to prison but it is good to know a dangerous criminal is off the streets for good (hopefully).
posted by mathowie at 5:29 PM on July 12, 2005