Democracy in Action
August 1, 2005 8:19 AM Subscribe
Bush to Senate: Go to Hell. As expected, President Bush bypassed the confirmation process and made a recess appointment to elevate John Bolton to the post of US ambassador to the United Nations, brushing off what he calls "partisan delaying tactics by a handful of senators." Bolton was previously discussed on MeFi here.
The US makes me laugh.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:27 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by Space Coyote at 8:27 AM on August 1, 2005
Great move Mr. President. I am very proud. Maybe the de-corruption of the United Nations begins today....
posted by ParisParamus at 8:29 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 8:29 AM on August 1, 2005
Bolton/Bush is now effectively powerless in the UN. Everyone now knows this is a temporary appointment, still subject to review. In a body known for long delays, do you think they will let this guy ram anything through at all now?
posted by Pollomacho at 8:30 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by Pollomacho at 8:30 AM on August 1, 2005
"Tough-minded diplomat" or anger-management poster boy? You decide. In any case, he is now the public face of the US in the United Nations.
posted by digaman at 8:30 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by digaman at 8:30 AM on August 1, 2005
disgusting - bush to the world: "my way or the highway" - bush to the senate: "my way or the highway".
this one will blow up in bush's face ... guaranteed. you read it here first.
posted by specialk420 at 8:31 AM on August 1, 2005
this one will blow up in bush's face ... guaranteed. you read it here first.
posted by specialk420 at 8:31 AM on August 1, 2005
GYOBFW! GYOBFW! Hey I learned a new acronym last night and now I get to use it!!!! Is this the Best of the Web? What are you doing with my Metafilter!?! Someone has an axe to grind! GYOBFW!!!
(End sarcasm)
posted by dsquid at 8:32 AM on August 1, 2005
(End sarcasm)
posted by dsquid at 8:32 AM on August 1, 2005
"If this administration had any decency -- anything but contempt for the United States Senate, the intelligence community, the United Nations, or the opinions and desires of our allies around the world, what Steve and others did here would have been enough to get a decent diplomat appointed."
posted by specialk420 at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by specialk420 at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2005
Plus, Bolton's moustache looks like a month-old dog turd.
posted by wakko at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by wakko at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2005
me3dia: This is my surprised face. It's been frozen this way ever since we invaded Iraq.
posted by wakko at 8:36 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by wakko at 8:36 AM on August 1, 2005
To the defenders of Bush here, I have an earnest question. Let's say, in a moment of pure fantasy, that Bush was a rabid liberal intent on "spreading democracy" throughout the world. Would routing around the democratic process with a recess appointment be the best way of demonstrating his commitment to the system that he was elected to defend? Just askin'.
posted by digaman at 8:37 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by digaman at 8:37 AM on August 1, 2005
I think it's expected, and really just fine with me.
The fact that the 'uniter, not a divider' president cannot get his nominee through a congress that is utterly subservient to his whims is remarkable. And that is something. I'd rather have had the intelligence documents Bolton supposedly demanded made available to the Senate, but then, that'd lead to accountability for his actions, so...
posted by Busithoth at 8:41 AM on August 1, 2005
The fact that the 'uniter, not a divider' president cannot get his nominee through a congress that is utterly subservient to his whims is remarkable. And that is something. I'd rather have had the intelligence documents Bolton supposedly demanded made available to the Senate, but then, that'd lead to accountability for his actions, so...
posted by Busithoth at 8:41 AM on August 1, 2005
So.....no up or down vote thing anymore? Bush can't live up to his espoused principles? I'm just not getting it.
Also, what is the problem with posting this here? It's something that, up until Bush did this, I had no interest in.
posted by Smedleyman at 8:44 AM on August 1, 2005
Also, what is the problem with posting this here? It's something that, up until Bush did this, I had no interest in.
posted by Smedleyman at 8:44 AM on August 1, 2005
I think Bush should appoint himself to some juicy post too, just in case this whole President thing doesn't pan out.
posted by Outlawyr at 8:47 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by Outlawyr at 8:47 AM on August 1, 2005
Digaman, recess appointments are done all the time by both parties. This one is just a little higher profile than most.
The UN, by itself, has made itself into a joke. The only hope is for a Bolton type official to clean up Turtle Bay. The alternative? The US reduces or cuts off funding, and the place folds and/or leaves for Paris or Geneva. At which point NO ONE will care about it.
The UN needs the US about 1000x more than vice versa--all the Metafilter twits notwithstanding.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:48 AM on August 1, 2005
The UN, by itself, has made itself into a joke. The only hope is for a Bolton type official to clean up Turtle Bay. The alternative? The US reduces or cuts off funding, and the place folds and/or leaves for Paris or Geneva. At which point NO ONE will care about it.
The UN needs the US about 1000x more than vice versa--all the Metafilter twits notwithstanding.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:48 AM on August 1, 2005
Bolton doesn't play in Peoria because, I think, everyone has worked for a guy like him. The "tough-minded" persona that these guys adopt is almost invariably a facade to cover up their incompetence.
And he failed to disclose to the Senate that he testified before the Fitzgerald grand jury. I wonder if he can be indicted for that.
posted by deanc at 8:48 AM on August 1, 2005
And he failed to disclose to the Senate that he testified before the Fitzgerald grand jury. I wonder if he can be indicted for that.
posted by deanc at 8:48 AM on August 1, 2005
And that's what I'll never understand about LGF rhetoric. Why can't you "We're #1" guys figure out that when 100 of the smaller guys go "You suck", that that is actually worse than having a loose agreements where 30-40 say you suck? You know, "we're all in this together", even though the rich white guys don't think so yet?
Really. Someone can do this much more grammatically pretty than me, but that's my problem with the Anti-UN argument. Can't we just be a little less egotistical and , well, "red neck American"?
posted by cavalier at 8:52 AM on August 1, 2005
Really. Someone can do this much more grammatically pretty than me, but that's my problem with the Anti-UN argument. Can't we just be a little less egotistical and , well, "red neck American"?
posted by cavalier at 8:52 AM on August 1, 2005
PS: The only reason this is being made into a big deal is that the Democrats are running amok over being made less and less relevant in Washington. This is all they have left to make noise over. Thank you Howard Dean!
posted by ParisParamus at 8:52 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 8:52 AM on August 1, 2005
Is it believable that people think the United Nations is corrupt when it's the U.S. Congress that's so tremendously vulnerable to corporate lobbying?
It is believable that they think the nomination of a guy who hates the United Nations to that body will do any good?
Is it believable that they think that this won't be seen as a great affront against them by most of the members nations?
Is it believable that Bush really thinks that the United States, that he, has the moral standing to so tell the rest of the world how things should be? Is it possible that he thinks they won't get mad at this, or is it more possible that he just doesn't care, and sees it as a case of might makes right?
Okay, all these things said... does the FPP have to be written in such an unnecessarily provoking style? I'm still new here, but I sorta thought that kind of thing was for the comments section.
And in that vein: is dsquid a real person, or is he just a kind of automatic wonking machine?
posted by JHarris at 8:53 AM on August 1, 2005
It is believable that they think the nomination of a guy who hates the United Nations to that body will do any good?
Is it believable that they think that this won't be seen as a great affront against them by most of the members nations?
Is it believable that Bush really thinks that the United States, that he, has the moral standing to so tell the rest of the world how things should be? Is it possible that he thinks they won't get mad at this, or is it more possible that he just doesn't care, and sees it as a case of might makes right?
Okay, all these things said... does the FPP have to be written in such an unnecessarily provoking style? I'm still new here, but I sorta thought that kind of thing was for the comments section.
And in that vein: is dsquid a real person, or is he just a kind of automatic wonking machine?
posted by JHarris at 8:53 AM on August 1, 2005
If "we're all in this together" = "We're all in this race to the bottom of the corruption sewer together," fuck off. I don't really care if Europe and Africa can sleep at night dealing in Oil-For-Food, etc. I'd rather be the last person on earth than go along with that.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:56 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 8:56 AM on August 1, 2005
PS: The only reason this is being made into a big deal is that the Democrats are running amok over being made less and less relevant in Washington. This is all they have left to make noise over. Thank you Howard Dean!
Uh, actually, the Democrats' electoral woes at the moment stem from an era in which Terry McAuliffe was chairman of the DNC. Howard Dean did not assume chairmanship of the DNC until February of 2005, after both the elections of 2002 and 2004, in which Democrats lost ground.
You know, your political views might be very, very odious, but I would hope that once in a while, you could advocate for your deviant political ideology while at the same time basing your rhetoric in, you know, actual facts.
posted by deanc at 8:56 AM on August 1, 2005
Uh, actually, the Democrats' electoral woes at the moment stem from an era in which Terry McAuliffe was chairman of the DNC. Howard Dean did not assume chairmanship of the DNC until February of 2005, after both the elections of 2002 and 2004, in which Democrats lost ground.
You know, your political views might be very, very odious, but I would hope that once in a while, you could advocate for your deviant political ideology while at the same time basing your rhetoric in, you know, actual facts.
posted by deanc at 8:56 AM on August 1, 2005
If you think Bolton's going to actually clean up the UN, instead of being the urethra through which the Bush admin will piss on it, you're delusional. (But then you would have to believe the Bush admin has ever cleaned up anything during its existence.) On the other hand, what difference does it make? Bolton will be a very enthusiastic urethra, while somebody else might be kind of dignified and circumspect - but they'd still have the same function.
posted by furiousthought at 8:57 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by furiousthought at 8:57 AM on August 1, 2005
dsquid beat me to it...how come this one link news post doesn't get a GYOBFW, but the Howard Dean one, which at least has more than one link, gets shouted down?
posted by spicynuts at 8:57 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by spicynuts at 8:57 AM on August 1, 2005
You know, this post may or may not have been worthy of the first page. But if you're going to say fuck to someone, don't be a pussy about it. Can we please drop the offensive, asinine acronyms?
posted by cytherea at 8:59 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by cytherea at 8:59 AM on August 1, 2005
furiousthought: I will sit back and enjoy your agony, whether it be for the next two years, or the entirety of this Bush Administration, or for the next 25, which is about how long the Republicans, for better or worse, will be in power.
posted by ParisParamus at 9:00 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 9:00 AM on August 1, 2005
I'm not going to justify this post. If you're not interested, move along -- there's plenty of fascinating stuff on MeFi this morning about Flash mobs and Google maps to keep you occupied. But if you're interested in discussion of the decisions that will be seen by historians for decades to define this administration and this era, stick around.
posted by digaman at 9:01 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by digaman at 9:01 AM on August 1, 2005
<img src="http://files.bangshang.com/generator.php?wrap=true&text=all+the+twits+notwithstanding&submit=Generate".
posted by yhbc at 9:02 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by yhbc at 9:02 AM on August 1, 2005
JHarris:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank the Lawwd I was born in 'merica. Otherwise, I'd pretty much think it sucks.
posted by pmbuko at 9:03 AM on August 1, 2005
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank the Lawwd I was born in 'merica. Otherwise, I'd pretty much think it sucks.
posted by pmbuko at 9:03 AM on August 1, 2005
But if you're going to say fuck to someone, don't be a pussy about it.
GYOBFW has been around a long time, and is part of the MeFi vernacular. Boo-hoo if you don't like it, fuckface.
And yes, this post does suck. GYOBFW.
posted by Kwantsar at 9:08 AM on August 1, 2005
GYOBFW has been around a long time, and is part of the MeFi vernacular. Boo-hoo if you don't like it, fuckface.
And yes, this post does suck. GYOBFW.
posted by Kwantsar at 9:08 AM on August 1, 2005
Democratic process? This is the President's appointment to make; the Senate refused to actually vote up or down on him. Get over it. Bush won the election in November.
And, you know, it's not like the UN is doing much now...except, perhaps, bashing Israel, and not stopping real genocide in Africa.
posted by ParisParamus at 9:09 AM on August 1, 2005
And, you know, it's not like the UN is doing much now...except, perhaps, bashing Israel, and not stopping real genocide in Africa.
posted by ParisParamus at 9:09 AM on August 1, 2005
If "we're all in this together" = "We're all in this race to the bottom of the corruption sewer together," fuck off. I don't really care if Europe and Africa can sleep at night dealing in Oil-For-Food, etc. I'd rather be the last person on earth than go along with that.
Paris, how is it that you're totally up to speed and well-informed on the U.N. corruption scandal, but seem to be totally oblivious to the daily corporate giveaways and "screw the little people" shenanigans that the Bush administration is conducting here at home? I'd think you'd care more about that since it's domestic. Do you really think big business is deserving of an even bigger slice of the pie? Do you close your eyes and plug your ears to make it go away because, "yay, your 'team' is winning"?
Oh wait... there's only one solution that makes sense anymore... PP is fabulously wealthy. And a CEO. It's the only way he could sanely support the Bush administration.
So, got any job openings?
posted by BobFrapples at 9:10 AM on August 1, 2005
Paris, how is it that you're totally up to speed and well-informed on the U.N. corruption scandal, but seem to be totally oblivious to the daily corporate giveaways and "screw the little people" shenanigans that the Bush administration is conducting here at home? I'd think you'd care more about that since it's domestic. Do you really think big business is deserving of an even bigger slice of the pie? Do you close your eyes and plug your ears to make it go away because, "yay, your 'team' is winning"?
Oh wait... there's only one solution that makes sense anymore... PP is fabulously wealthy. And a CEO. It's the only way he could sanely support the Bush administration.
So, got any job openings?
posted by BobFrapples at 9:10 AM on August 1, 2005
Unprecedented.com. Bolton is the first UN Ambassador to go to NY without a mandate from the Senate.
America's credibility deficit with the world just got bigger.
posted by theknacker at 9:10 AM on August 1, 2005
America's credibility deficit with the world just got bigger.
posted by theknacker at 9:10 AM on August 1, 2005
I wish this surprised me. But this is what I expected to happen all along.
posted by SisterHavana at 9:11 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by SisterHavana at 9:11 AM on August 1, 2005
I will sit back and enjoy your agony, whether it be for the next two years, or the entirety of this Bush Administration, or for the next 25, which is about how long the Republicans, for better or worse, will be in power.
Heh-heh.
posted by wsg at 9:13 AM on August 1, 2005
Heh-heh.
posted by wsg at 9:13 AM on August 1, 2005
Actually, if the Democrats really wanted to be hard-asses about it, they could have forcibly kept the Senate in session and thus prevented the appointment.
Recess appointments have been used for a while... Clinton used it a few times, as well, when the Republicans were blocking various nominees for various reasons, but mostly because they were too liberal for them, whereas the Senate held firm against Bolton because, let's face it, the man is incompetent and damaged goods from the Bush administration's Iraq screwup.
Honestly, this became just a pissing contest where the Democrats had to "flex their muscles" or get steamrolled by the Republicans forever after. If they hadn't fought the Bolton appointment, Republicans would have figured they were weak and vulnerable. So they fought the Bolton nomination, knowing that bush would appoint him at recess, and the Senate Republicans got stuck licking their wounds over the fight.
posted by deanc at 9:14 AM on August 1, 2005
Recess appointments have been used for a while... Clinton used it a few times, as well, when the Republicans were blocking various nominees for various reasons, but mostly because they were too liberal for them, whereas the Senate held firm against Bolton because, let's face it, the man is incompetent and damaged goods from the Bush administration's Iraq screwup.
Honestly, this became just a pissing contest where the Democrats had to "flex their muscles" or get steamrolled by the Republicans forever after. If they hadn't fought the Bolton appointment, Republicans would have figured they were weak and vulnerable. So they fought the Bolton nomination, knowing that bush would appoint him at recess, and the Senate Republicans got stuck licking their wounds over the fight.
posted by deanc at 9:14 AM on August 1, 2005
don't really care if Europe and Africa can sleep at night dealing in Oil-For-Food, etc.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it had already come out that Americans made most of the profit on that little scandal.
posted by bashos_frog at 9:18 AM on August 1, 2005
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it had already come out that Americans made most of the profit on that little scandal.
posted by bashos_frog at 9:18 AM on August 1, 2005
That's funny jackiemcghee, I seem to recall something similar to that, something about $130 million to some company, I think their name started with an H and ended with an alliburton, that was run by some guy who'd been Secretary of Defense or something. I'm sure it will come to me...
posted by Pollomacho at 9:20 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by Pollomacho at 9:20 AM on August 1, 2005
Boo-hoo if you don't like it, fuckface.
I'm so glad that we could work together to elevate the discourse.
posted by cytherea at 9:21 AM on August 1, 2005
I'm so glad that we could work together to elevate the discourse.
posted by cytherea at 9:21 AM on August 1, 2005
I will sit back and enjoy your agony
Ooh, I have my own personal supervillain!
You never truly enjoy the comedic quality of such lines until you have them personally directed at you. Seriously, you kinda made my day there.
I've long thought that political threads around here would be much more entertaining if everybody simply wrote "Fool!" before every comment they made.
posted by furiousthought at 9:22 AM on August 1, 2005
Ooh, I have my own personal supervillain!
You never truly enjoy the comedic quality of such lines until you have them personally directed at you. Seriously, you kinda made my day there.
I've long thought that political threads around here would be much more entertaining if everybody simply wrote "Fool!" before every comment they made.
posted by furiousthought at 9:22 AM on August 1, 2005
I get it, PP. So let's say I wanted to reform MetaFilter to make it a more effective online community. The best way to do it would be to route around mathowie's membership process to grant posting powers to some guy who thought that MeFi was a bunch of "ineffectual twits" that could afford to lose half its membership (the phrase Bolton used was that the UN "could afford to lose 10 stories and it wouldn't make a bit of difference")?
posted by digaman at 9:23 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by digaman at 9:23 AM on August 1, 2005
yeah, whatever, enjoy the appointment. go complain to John Kerry and Howard Dean. Actually, go complain into the mirror.
posted by ParisParamus at 9:24 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 9:24 AM on August 1, 2005
ParisParamus--
'I'd rather be the last person on earth than go along with that.'
--------------------------------------------------------
You won't be the last person on earth, but the rest of the world will have passed you by while you wallow in victories that were only gained by subverting every moral and value espoused by your government.
posted by mk1gti at 9:25 AM on August 1, 2005
'I'd rather be the last person on earth than go along with that.'
--------------------------------------------------------
You won't be the last person on earth, but the rest of the world will have passed you by while you wallow in victories that were only gained by subverting every moral and value espoused by your government.
posted by mk1gti at 9:25 AM on August 1, 2005
"Go Complain Into the Mirror", the newest pop megahit from International music Superstar Paris Paramus!
All proceeds from the sale of this CD go to rich people.
posted by BobFrapples at 9:28 AM on August 1, 2005
All proceeds from the sale of this CD go to rich people.
posted by BobFrapples at 9:28 AM on August 1, 2005
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it had already come out that Americans made most of the profit on that little scandal.
$10 says PP ignores this valid, scathing point entirely.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:29 AM on August 1, 2005
$10 says PP ignores this valid, scathing point entirely.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:29 AM on August 1, 2005
Fools! That was a HINT.
posted by furiousthought at 9:29 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by furiousthought at 9:29 AM on August 1, 2005
Pleased to be regaled by "lol we won the 'lection" posts in the political threads. Them's good eatin'.
Very timely that we have become so internationally illegitimate as China becomes less so.
posted by basicchannel at 9:30 AM on August 1, 2005
Very timely that we have become so internationally illegitimate as China becomes less so.
posted by basicchannel at 9:30 AM on August 1, 2005
ParisParamus : "Bush won the election in November."
And the senators all won their elections as well.
ParisParamus : "Actually, go complain into the mirror."
To raise the level of discourse to yours: "Let's not and say we did."
posted by Bugbread at 9:31 AM on August 1, 2005
And the senators all won their elections as well.
ParisParamus : "Actually, go complain into the mirror."
To raise the level of discourse to yours: "Let's not and say we did."
posted by Bugbread at 9:31 AM on August 1, 2005
fuck off... I will sit back and enjoy your agony... go complain into the mirror.... all the Metafilter twits notwithstanding.
Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe that PP is the sort of person who actually cares about genocide in Africa or oil-for-food corruption scandals taking food away from the mouths of starving Iraqis?
posted by deanc at 9:31 AM on August 1, 2005
Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe that PP is the sort of person who actually cares about genocide in Africa or oil-for-food corruption scandals taking food away from the mouths of starving Iraqis?
posted by deanc at 9:31 AM on August 1, 2005
deanc : "Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe that PP is the sort of person who actually cares about genocide in Africa or oil-for-food corruption scandals taking food away from the mouths of starving Iraqis?"
Not the only one.
posted by Bugbread at 9:32 AM on August 1, 2005
Not the only one.
posted by Bugbread at 9:32 AM on August 1, 2005
ParisParamus wrote: all the Metafilter twits notwithstanding
Thank you for once again proving that you're just an abusive troll, who should be ignored until such time as Mathowie and jessamyn wake up and ban you.
posted by mosch at 9:36 AM on August 1, 2005
Thank you for once again proving that you're just an abusive troll, who should be ignored until such time as Mathowie and jessamyn wake up and ban you.
posted by mosch at 9:36 AM on August 1, 2005
I hope that the rest of the UN takes John Bolton to the back and beats the living crap out of him for being a prick. Because if there is one thing that asshole needs is a school yard ass whooping.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:40 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:40 AM on August 1, 2005
Jesus Christ, don't take the thing from PP's hand. He's got no idea what the fuck he's talking about, especially on this, and it's just gonna turn into a fuckin' snark parade when every leftists tries to "correct" his derangement.
posted by klangklangston at 9:41 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by klangklangston at 9:41 AM on August 1, 2005
Can someone remind me how much money the US owes the UN in overdue membership fees? Thanks.
posted by Hogshead at 9:45 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by Hogshead at 9:45 AM on August 1, 2005
There are no more late fees, you just "buy" it outright now.
posted by basicchannel at 9:46 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by basicchannel at 9:46 AM on August 1, 2005
This was not a surprise to anybody, I hope. This appointment now allows the US government to continue to piss and moan about how ineffective the UN is while simultaneously keeping it that way because the UN makes a good scapegoat.
The UN is ineffective because of the permanent security council, and that's the way the permanent security council likes it.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 9:46 AM on August 1, 2005
The UN is ineffective because of the permanent security council, and that's the way the permanent security council likes it.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 9:46 AM on August 1, 2005
at the end of the day people like bolton often end up getting their share of karma... what would paris say if clinton had appointed some scumbag who's wife left him because he tried to force her into some sort of an orgy to be his representative to the UN?... one can only imagine.
posted by specialk420 at 9:46 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by specialk420 at 9:46 AM on August 1, 2005
Just for reference:
Recess Appointments: Frequently Asked Questions [pdf]:
During his two terms in office, President Ronald W. Reagan made 240 recess appointments, of which 116 were to full-time positions. President George H. W. Bush made 77 recess appointments during his term of office; 18 were to full-time positions. President William J. Clinton made 140 recess appointments during his eight years in office, 95 to full-time positions. During his first term in office, President George W. Bush made 110 recess appointments, of which 66 were to full-time positions.
Clinton appoints first openly gay ambassador:
WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, June 4) -- President Bill Clinton Friday used his recess appointment privilege to name James Hormel as ambassador to Luxembourg. Clinton's move was in direct defiance of the Senate's GOP leadership who have refused to confirm Hormel because he is openly gay...
Under the recess appointment, Hormel, 66, will be able to serve until the end of 2000, when the 106th Congress adjourns...Although the Senate Foreign Relations Committee approved the nomination and his supporters claim they had the votes in the full Senate to confirm the appointment, the conservative GOP leadership, including Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, refused to allow the matter to come to a floor vote in the 105th Congress.
Bill Clinton on recess appointments:
On December 27, 2000 – a little more than three weeks before leaving office, Bill Clinton made the following remarks about the recess appointment of a judge to the Fourth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals:
“I am honored today to announce my (recess) appointment of Roger Gregory, one of Richmond's most respected trial lawyers, to fill an emergency vacancy on the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. I will re-nominate him when Congress returns in January, and I urge the Senate to confirm him…
In closing, let me say I have not come to this decision lightly. I have always respected the Senate's role in the appointment process. Indeed, I have made far fewer recess appointments than President Reagan did in his eight years, and I believe that the record on that is perfectly clear...
Recess appointments to subvert Senate leaders who refuse to bring a nominee up for a vote s/he's likely to win in front of the full Senate seem fine to me. Recess appointments to subvert the full Senate itself, simply because the nominee cannot win, seem different. Kind of disgusting, actually.
posted by mediareport at 9:48 AM on August 1, 2005
Recess Appointments: Frequently Asked Questions [pdf]:
During his two terms in office, President Ronald W. Reagan made 240 recess appointments, of which 116 were to full-time positions. President George H. W. Bush made 77 recess appointments during his term of office; 18 were to full-time positions. President William J. Clinton made 140 recess appointments during his eight years in office, 95 to full-time positions. During his first term in office, President George W. Bush made 110 recess appointments, of which 66 were to full-time positions.
Clinton appoints first openly gay ambassador:
WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, June 4) -- President Bill Clinton Friday used his recess appointment privilege to name James Hormel as ambassador to Luxembourg. Clinton's move was in direct defiance of the Senate's GOP leadership who have refused to confirm Hormel because he is openly gay...
Under the recess appointment, Hormel, 66, will be able to serve until the end of 2000, when the 106th Congress adjourns...Although the Senate Foreign Relations Committee approved the nomination and his supporters claim they had the votes in the full Senate to confirm the appointment, the conservative GOP leadership, including Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, refused to allow the matter to come to a floor vote in the 105th Congress.
Bill Clinton on recess appointments:
On December 27, 2000 – a little more than three weeks before leaving office, Bill Clinton made the following remarks about the recess appointment of a judge to the Fourth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals:
“I am honored today to announce my (recess) appointment of Roger Gregory, one of Richmond's most respected trial lawyers, to fill an emergency vacancy on the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. I will re-nominate him when Congress returns in January, and I urge the Senate to confirm him…
In closing, let me say I have not come to this decision lightly. I have always respected the Senate's role in the appointment process. Indeed, I have made far fewer recess appointments than President Reagan did in his eight years, and I believe that the record on that is perfectly clear...
Recess appointments to subvert Senate leaders who refuse to bring a nominee up for a vote s/he's likely to win in front of the full Senate seem fine to me. Recess appointments to subvert the full Senate itself, simply because the nominee cannot win, seem different. Kind of disgusting, actually.
posted by mediareport at 9:48 AM on August 1, 2005
PS: The only reason this is being made into a big deal is that the Democrats are running amok over being made less and less relevant in Washington. This is all they have left to make noise over. Thank you Howard Dean!
posted by ParisParamus at 10:52 AM CST on August 1 [!]
Yes, so irrelevant that the president couldn't overcome them even with a stacked deck and instead had to wait for them to leave town and take the coward's way out.
Does it ever snow on your planet?
posted by Ynoxas at 9:49 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 10:52 AM CST on August 1 [!]
Yes, so irrelevant that the president couldn't overcome them even with a stacked deck and instead had to wait for them to leave town and take the coward's way out.
Does it ever snow on your planet?
posted by Ynoxas at 9:49 AM on August 1, 2005
Naaanaanaaanaananaaaa! I can make recess appointments, and youuuuu caaaaaaaaan't! (sticks out tongue) Thbhbhbhbhbhbhbh!
posted by fungible at 9:53 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by fungible at 9:53 AM on August 1, 2005
Wow. *QUACK* I guess Bush's lame duck period has officially started. Bolton is an outstanding pick and totally exemplary of this administration.
I can't wait until it becomes established that the DOJ is looking in his office for the eventual leaker to/from Judy Miller of the Plame Name.
posted by rzklkng at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2005
I can't wait until it becomes established that the DOJ is looking in his office for the eventual leaker to/from Judy Miller of the Plame Name.
posted by rzklkng at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2005
Btw, Roger Gregory's recess appointment to the Fourth Circuit bench was eventually confirmed by a 93-1 vote. Like Hormel, his nomination had been bottled up by a handful of Senate leaders who knew he'd win confirmation. That's hardly comparable to the Bolton case.
posted by mediareport at 9:59 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by mediareport at 9:59 AM on August 1, 2005
Once again, Bush and his supporters prove that their idea of "winning" is to simply take the ball and go home.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 9:59 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 9:59 AM on August 1, 2005
The UN, by itself, has made itself into a joke. The only hope is for a Bolton type official to clean up Turtle Bay.
If you're the new sheriff, with guns at your side and the force of law behind you, then you can ride into town solo, appoint some deputies and clean it up with force.
If you're one of many ambassadors to the UN, and represent one of five countries with veto power, then you have to build consensus and exchange favors.
posted by Slothrup at 10:02 AM on August 1, 2005
If you're the new sheriff, with guns at your side and the force of law behind you, then you can ride into town solo, appoint some deputies and clean it up with force.
If you're one of many ambassadors to the UN, and represent one of five countries with veto power, then you have to build consensus and exchange favors.
posted by Slothrup at 10:02 AM on August 1, 2005
So, there's been some stuff in the news lately about unreliable intelligence being used to justify the war in Iraq. (And yeah, Bolton was involved in that too, and lied about it -- small world!) Here's the WashPost on Bolton's relationship with the intelligence community about a totally different issue:
"The most damaging allegation about Bolton involves his 2002 efforts to prod the intelligence community to back his allegation that Cuba might be seeking to export weapons of mass destruction from a biowarfare program. In February 2002, he prepared a speech that, according to an unclassified Senate intelligence committee report, 'contained a sentence which said that the U.S. believes Cuba has a developmental, offensive biological warfare program and is providing assistance to other rogue state programs.'
The problem was that Bolton's charges went well beyond what the intelligence community viewed as solid evidence... Bolton wanted to sound the alarm about Cuba, regardless of what the NIE said. So he asked his chief of staff to submit his proposed language to the intelligence community for clearance. The request went to the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), where it was given to the chief biological weapons analyst, Christian Westermann...
Westermann sent Bolton's proposed speech language about Cuban biowarfare efforts to the intelligence community for clearance the afternoon of Feb. 12, 2002. With it, he attached alternative language that in his view accorded better with the NIE. Westermann had frequently suggested similar changes for other colleagues and saw it as part of his job. But Bolton seemed convinced that it was a stab in the back...
Bolton was enraged when Westermann arrived: 'He wanted to know what right I had trying to change an undersecretary's language. . . . And he got very red in the face and shaking his finger at me and explained that I was acting way beyond my position. . . . And so, he basically threw me out of his office...'
...When he arrived, Bolton was still furious, saying that 'he wasn't going to be told what he could say by a midlevel INR munchkin analyst,' and 'that he wanted Westermann taken off his accounts.'"
Iraq, Schmiraq. On to Havana!
posted by digaman at 10:02 AM on August 1, 2005
"The most damaging allegation about Bolton involves his 2002 efforts to prod the intelligence community to back his allegation that Cuba might be seeking to export weapons of mass destruction from a biowarfare program. In February 2002, he prepared a speech that, according to an unclassified Senate intelligence committee report, 'contained a sentence which said that the U.S. believes Cuba has a developmental, offensive biological warfare program and is providing assistance to other rogue state programs.'
The problem was that Bolton's charges went well beyond what the intelligence community viewed as solid evidence... Bolton wanted to sound the alarm about Cuba, regardless of what the NIE said. So he asked his chief of staff to submit his proposed language to the intelligence community for clearance. The request went to the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), where it was given to the chief biological weapons analyst, Christian Westermann...
Westermann sent Bolton's proposed speech language about Cuban biowarfare efforts to the intelligence community for clearance the afternoon of Feb. 12, 2002. With it, he attached alternative language that in his view accorded better with the NIE. Westermann had frequently suggested similar changes for other colleagues and saw it as part of his job. But Bolton seemed convinced that it was a stab in the back...
Bolton was enraged when Westermann arrived: 'He wanted to know what right I had trying to change an undersecretary's language. . . . And he got very red in the face and shaking his finger at me and explained that I was acting way beyond my position. . . . And so, he basically threw me out of his office...'
...When he arrived, Bolton was still furious, saying that 'he wasn't going to be told what he could say by a midlevel INR munchkin analyst,' and 'that he wanted Westermann taken off his accounts.'"
Iraq, Schmiraq. On to Havana!
posted by digaman at 10:02 AM on August 1, 2005
Recess appointments are quite common.
Since 1791, 15 Supreme Court Justices began their tenure with a recess appointment, the most recent being Justice Potter Stewart in 1958.posted by thedevildancedlightly at 10:07 AM on August 1, 2005
President Clinton has now made 56 recess appointments in his 6 ½ years, the last being James Hormel as Ambassador to Luxembourg on June 4, 1999. President Bush made 77 recess appointments during his 4 year tenure, and in 8 years as President, Ronald Reagan made 243 such appointments. President Carter made 68 recess appointments over 4 years in office.
Source: C-SPAN
A Look at Presidential Recess Appointments
By The Associated Press
President Georege W. Bush: 106 recess appointments
President Bill Clinton: 140 recess appointments over two terms.
President George H. W. Bush: 77 recess appointments over one term
President Ronald Reagan made 243 over two terms.
link
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:08 AM on August 1, 2005
By The Associated Press
President Georege W. Bush: 106 recess appointments
President Bill Clinton: 140 recess appointments over two terms.
President George H. W. Bush: 77 recess appointments over one term
President Ronald Reagan made 243 over two terms.
link
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:08 AM on August 1, 2005
Heck, Bush should have just recess appointed Roberts at the same time.
It's not like he gives a shit if due process or rules are followed.
Yes, I know that this is a common thing for both sides, and I'm pissed when they do it, too.
posted by Balisong at 10:11 AM on August 1, 2005
It's not like he gives a shit if due process or rules are followed.
Yes, I know that this is a common thing for both sides, and I'm pissed when they do it, too.
posted by Balisong at 10:11 AM on August 1, 2005
Also, I love the thread title "Democracy in Action"
LOL
A democraticly elected majorty is elected to the U.S. Senate, and a vocal minortiy blocks the apointment choice of the elected majority and elected president.
What a twisted world you live in.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:11 AM on August 1, 2005
LOL
A democraticly elected majorty is elected to the U.S. Senate, and a vocal minortiy blocks the apointment choice of the elected majority and elected president.
What a twisted world you live in.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:11 AM on August 1, 2005
Sure man -- but that's no justification for not giving this recess appointment of this man at this time the scrutiny it deserves. This man is the public face of our country at a time when US standing in the global community is particularly shaky, whether you believe it should be or not, or whether you care or not.
posted by digaman at 10:12 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by digaman at 10:12 AM on August 1, 2005
Steve and tddl, it was already been said, and it doesn't prove much of anything.
posted by ludwig_van at 10:12 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ludwig_van at 10:12 AM on August 1, 2005
That's weird. They posted the same thing at the same time, yet neither bothered (apparently) to read the thread, since they would have seen that the information had already been posted. Snap?
posted by cytherea at 10:16 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by cytherea at 10:16 AM on August 1, 2005
Steve at Linwood, homework is available at your local highschool and on the Internet that will remind you that democracy is not a machine to ensure the rights of the majority against the complaints of a "vocal minority," but precisely the other way around. Or do you see Thomas Jefferson as somehow standing up for anti-American principles?
posted by digaman at 10:19 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by digaman at 10:19 AM on August 1, 2005
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank the Lawwd I was born in 'merica. Otherwise, I'd pretty much think it sucks.
More every day?
posted by wakko at 10:21 AM on August 1, 2005
More every day?
posted by wakko at 10:21 AM on August 1, 2005
I bet Thomas Jefferson is one of those Founding Fathers that Steve, P.P., dsquid, et al. could have just as soon lived without.
posted by Balisong at 10:23 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by Balisong at 10:23 AM on August 1, 2005
digaman - your statement is not accurate re democracy in general (in many cases democracy is to protect the majority against a small but powerful minority), but it is surely true of the senate, which was created specifically to balance against the populist arms (executive, house of representatives) of the government.
posted by urban rabbit at 10:24 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by urban rabbit at 10:24 AM on August 1, 2005
If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:24 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:24 AM on August 1, 2005
The harping on it being a recess appointment is a problem with the post, when the actual problem is:
It's JOHN "YOSEMITE SAM" BOLTON being APPOINTED U.N. AMBASSADOR.
(Or "dumbassador," as it'll undoubtedly be repeated dozens of times in the coming months. Remember, the ultimate source of that webmeme is me, JHarris! I'm topical! Wheee!)
Also:
"This is the first time a UN Ambassador's been appointed during Senate recess!"
"Oh, everyone makes recess appointments!"
Figure out how both these statements can be true at the same time, and you've just passed Politics 101 in the United States.
posted by JHarris at 10:24 AM on August 1, 2005
It's JOHN "YOSEMITE SAM" BOLTON being APPOINTED U.N. AMBASSADOR.
(Or "dumbassador," as it'll undoubtedly be repeated dozens of times in the coming months. Remember, the ultimate source of that webmeme is me, JHarris! I'm topical! Wheee!)
Also:
"This is the first time a UN Ambassador's been appointed during Senate recess!"
"Oh, everyone makes recess appointments!"
Figure out how both these statements can be true at the same time, and you've just passed Politics 101 in the United States.
posted by JHarris at 10:24 AM on August 1, 2005
Hows that Iraq situation working out for you without the UN?
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on August 1, 2005
uncle rumsfeld+ war conductor and chief spokesman + forgot armor for military
= never did resign, did he?
miss condi + got aug 9 PDB, did nothing + mushroom clouds ahead
= secretary of state (also, still an oil tanker)
stephen hadley + friend of condi + known liar
= unbelievably, now national security advisor
paul wolfowitz+ iraq war thinker-upper + morning show scary person
= now the head of world bank
chalibi + convicted criminal + source for judy miller + whole war his idea
= totally running iraq and has alot of our 300 billion
alberto gonzalas+ best friend of george w + destroyed geneva convetion
= us attorney general
dick cheney + in control of the planet and all its oil + press is scared of him
= still the president
and now, adding to the list of unknown knowns.... waiting almost a whole year.... didn't get the job in a real way, but on the sly.. its :
john bolton + formerly known as "freak with the mustache " + has scary temper, fights with small children and almost got us into a war with north korea last year (!!)
= ambassador to the united nations
via kos
posted by H. Roark at 10:27 AM on August 1, 2005
= never did resign, did he?
miss condi + got aug 9 PDB, did nothing + mushroom clouds ahead
= secretary of state (also, still an oil tanker)
stephen hadley + friend of condi + known liar
= unbelievably, now national security advisor
paul wolfowitz+ iraq war thinker-upper + morning show scary person
= now the head of world bank
chalibi + convicted criminal + source for judy miller + whole war his idea
= totally running iraq and has alot of our 300 billion
alberto gonzalas+ best friend of george w + destroyed geneva convetion
= us attorney general
dick cheney + in control of the planet and all its oil + press is scared of him
= still the president
and now, adding to the list of unknown knowns.... waiting almost a whole year.... didn't get the job in a real way, but on the sly.. its :
john bolton + formerly known as "freak with the mustache " + has scary temper, fights with small children and almost got us into a war with north korea last year (!!)
= ambassador to the united nations
via kos
posted by H. Roark at 10:27 AM on August 1, 2005
/ dogpile on cool mefi header generator
// props to yhbc
posted by crunchywelch at 10:28 AM on August 1, 2005
Like I said: What a twisted world you live in.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:33 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:33 AM on August 1, 2005
Cytheria sez: "But if you're going to say fuck to someone, don't be a pussy about it. Can we please drop the offensive, asinine acronyms?"
Sorry. It was a trite reference to what was done to my post of last evening. I don't generally engage in acronym-wars or for that matter, FPP nannying.
posted by dsquid at 10:33 AM on August 1, 2005
Sorry. It was a trite reference to what was done to my post of last evening. I don't generally engage in acronym-wars or for that matter, FPP nannying.
posted by dsquid at 10:33 AM on August 1, 2005
LOL! As one who is not a US American, I think this is very funny, in the same sort of way as an America's Funniest Home Videos clip of some dumbass getting his balls crushed through his own stupidity in performing a lame stunt that goes wrong.
I doubt Bolton is going to have much effect on anything at all.
There's a lot of world out there, and most of it is not the USA. Global cooperation is on the increase, and its success requires diplomacy, charity, and consideration. The USA still holds enough influence that it won't yet be harmed by its exclusion from the process, but this is one more brick in the wall.
I imagine that within the next few decades, the US Administration will finally realize that they have cooperate, not combat, and things will turn out okay for the USA.
Just like the guy who sacks himself on TV, then goes on to pop out another kid, the pain is amusing but not permanently damaging.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:35 AM on August 1, 2005
I doubt Bolton is going to have much effect on anything at all.
There's a lot of world out there, and most of it is not the USA. Global cooperation is on the increase, and its success requires diplomacy, charity, and consideration. The USA still holds enough influence that it won't yet be harmed by its exclusion from the process, but this is one more brick in the wall.
I imagine that within the next few decades, the US Administration will finally realize that they have cooperate, not combat, and things will turn out okay for the USA.
Just like the guy who sacks himself on TV, then goes on to pop out another kid, the pain is amusing but not permanently damaging.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:35 AM on August 1, 2005
brushing off what he calls "the balance of power afforded by the Constitution."
posted by The Jesse Helms at 10:36 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by The Jesse Helms at 10:36 AM on August 1, 2005
Will he have to step down after the indictments start rolling in and he's on the list? I can't wait until the fall. These guys are going down. You can smell the desperation as a distinct undertone to the arrogance. And why is it the "conservative" posters here are always the first to resort to profanity? Very telling.
posted by realcountrymusic at 10:39 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by realcountrymusic at 10:39 AM on August 1, 2005
wsg sez: "Heh-heh." (and posts a link to a poll)
...yeah, because we all know how important and accurate the polls were last time around.
posted by dsquid at 10:39 AM on August 1, 2005
...yeah, because we all know how important and accurate the polls were last time around.
posted by dsquid at 10:39 AM on August 1, 2005
A HUGE scandal: the Iraq oil sale where Saddam got some of the cash meant for food.
No big deal: billions of US dollars lost rebuilding postwar Iraq.
posted by surplus at 10:43 AM on August 1, 2005
No big deal: billions of US dollars lost rebuilding postwar Iraq.
posted by surplus at 10:43 AM on August 1, 2005
And why is it the "conservative" posters here are always the first to resort to profanity? Very telling.
What does it "tell," and why?
posted by Kwantsar at 10:46 AM on August 1, 2005
What does it "tell," and why?
posted by Kwantsar at 10:46 AM on August 1, 2005
Moustaches are now officially out and creepy -- it was proven true for Saddam, it ought to be the case for Bolton.
Paranus, go grow one.
posted by NewBornHippy at 10:49 AM on August 1, 2005
Paranus, go grow one.
posted by NewBornHippy at 10:49 AM on August 1, 2005
The problem isn't recess appointments that would've gotten an up vote anyway. The issue is using it as an end-run to make appointments that were being blocked on the basis that they weren't well qualified for the position.
I don't really care if Bush recess-appoints a thousand people who wouldn't have faced significant legitimate opposition.
posted by mosch at 10:49 AM on August 1, 2005
I don't really care if Bush recess-appoints a thousand people who wouldn't have faced significant legitimate opposition.
posted by mosch at 10:49 AM on August 1, 2005
So, devildanced and Steve@, do you even bother to read the threads before you post to them? Doesn't seem like it from your first posts in this one.
Simplistic lists of numbers aside, what we really need is a good way to start distinguishing between the good and bad of recess appointments, regardless of which party the President belongs to. This was my attempt above:
Recess appointments to subvert Senate leaders who refuse to bring a nominee up for a vote s/he's likely to win in front of the full Senate seem fine to me. Recess appointments to subvert the full Senate itself, simply because the nominee cannot win, seem different. Kind of disgusting, actually.
I'd love to read your responses to that. The Bolton case seems like a serious abuse of the process.
posted by mediareport at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2005
Simplistic lists of numbers aside, what we really need is a good way to start distinguishing between the good and bad of recess appointments, regardless of which party the President belongs to. This was my attempt above:
Recess appointments to subvert Senate leaders who refuse to bring a nominee up for a vote s/he's likely to win in front of the full Senate seem fine to me. Recess appointments to subvert the full Senate itself, simply because the nominee cannot win, seem different. Kind of disgusting, actually.
I'd love to read your responses to that. The Bolton case seems like a serious abuse of the process.
posted by mediareport at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2005
I think if the UN is ineffective it is because of a select handful of countries (the US being one) have a disproportionate amount of power and are unwilling to submit any amount of sovernity to extraterritorial insinuations, such as the ICJ. We can not be both the solution and the problem.
I think tieing in economics with political action would be great. Nations that don't abide by treaties and instructions that are acknowledged by (say 85%?) the majority of other nations face a 15% export tariff per issue. Monies to go into funding underfunded areas of global concern.
Bolton will be ineffective. As a boss myself I can just imagine how his new staff will feel about him. Think he'll have to full support of those he manages? undoubtedly they will do their jobs, but there is a difference between doing your job, and being good at your job. I suspect he will elicit minimal effort, when such a position needs more then that.
posted by edgeways at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2005
I think tieing in economics with political action would be great. Nations that don't abide by treaties and instructions that are acknowledged by (say 85%?) the majority of other nations face a 15% export tariff per issue. Monies to go into funding underfunded areas of global concern.
Bolton will be ineffective. As a boss myself I can just imagine how his new staff will feel about him. Think he'll have to full support of those he manages? undoubtedly they will do their jobs, but there is a difference between doing your job, and being good at your job. I suspect he will elicit minimal effort, when such a position needs more then that.
posted by edgeways at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2005
"All the Metafilter twits notwithstanding."
*insert obligatory 'fuck off Paris Paramis' quote here*
No, but seriously, fuck you too. You're as stupid as you are unreasonable and nearly as worthless. There is no reasoning with you and I did indeed try. Why are you still here bitch?
Oh yes, just to piss on us.
Feel free, you'll get it back, plenty. Everything you 'believe' is foolish and ugly and when you post you display only your ignorance, callousness and lack of compassion. Go do something useful for a change. If not, buy a bullet and rent a gun.
--
U know where we can genetically engineer an octopoid, patgas?
---
Interesting posts mediareport, thedevildancedlightly, & Steve_at_Linnwood. Thanks.
...and of course digaman. I think it was worth posting.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:56 AM on August 1, 2005
*insert obligatory 'fuck off Paris Paramis' quote here*
No, but seriously, fuck you too. You're as stupid as you are unreasonable and nearly as worthless. There is no reasoning with you and I did indeed try. Why are you still here bitch?
Oh yes, just to piss on us.
Feel free, you'll get it back, plenty. Everything you 'believe' is foolish and ugly and when you post you display only your ignorance, callousness and lack of compassion. Go do something useful for a change. If not, buy a bullet and rent a gun.
--
U know where we can genetically engineer an octopoid, patgas?
---
Interesting posts mediareport, thedevildancedlightly, & Steve_at_Linnwood. Thanks.
...and of course digaman. I think it was worth posting.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:56 AM on August 1, 2005
Like I said: What a twisted world you live in.
Wouldn't you need to actually read the other comments to know that?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 11:00 AM on August 1, 2005
Wouldn't you need to actually read the other comments to know that?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 11:00 AM on August 1, 2005
The Bolton appointment can only make the word a notch or two better, just as the election and relection of President Bush has. Thank you, Mr. President for standing up to the forces of cowardess and evil in the world.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:09 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 11:09 AM on August 1, 2005
Thank you, Mr. President for standing up to the forces of cowardess and evil in the world.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:09 AM PST on August 1 [!]
Or, you know, FOR those forces.
posted by Balisong at 11:17 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 11:09 AM PST on August 1 [!]
Or, you know, FOR those forces.
posted by Balisong at 11:17 AM on August 1, 2005
Hey, ParisParamus, how's that Bush indictment going?
The Bolton appointment can only make the word a notch or two better, just as the election and relection of President Bush has. Thank you, Mr. President for standing up to the forces of cowardess and evil in the world.
If by "better" you mean "worse", I fully agree with you!
posted by wakko at 11:18 AM on August 1, 2005
The Bolton appointment can only make the word a notch or two better, just as the election and relection of President Bush has. Thank you, Mr. President for standing up to the forces of cowardess and evil in the world.
If by "better" you mean "worse", I fully agree with you!
posted by wakko at 11:18 AM on August 1, 2005
Just as a side note, democracy would let Bush do whatever he wants, as he's the elected ruler (well, within the bounds of the law, but he could change the law). The argument that minority rights are to be protected from the majority isn't democracy, it's liberalism.
And we know that Bush hates liberals.
(Like Jefferson and Madison).
posted by klangklangston at 11:19 AM on August 1, 2005
And we know that Bush hates liberals.
(Like Jefferson and Madison).
posted by klangklangston at 11:19 AM on August 1, 2005
Take the UN--PLEASE!
posted by ParisParamus at 11:20 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 11:20 AM on August 1, 2005
The Bolton appointment can only make the word a notch or two better, just as the election and relection of President Bush has. Thank you, Mr. President for standing up to the forces of cowardess and evil in the world.
Wow. PP can be uber-sarcastic, who knew? BTW, PP, who's Cowardess? Is she the new super-villainess leader of the Axis Of Evil?
posted by kaemaril at 11:21 AM on August 1, 2005
Wow. PP can be uber-sarcastic, who knew? BTW, PP, who's Cowardess? Is she the new super-villainess leader of the Axis Of Evil?
posted by kaemaril at 11:21 AM on August 1, 2005
Thank you, Mr. President for standing up to the forces of cowardess
Really, it's amazing that it took so long for someone to work up the nerve to stand up to those goddamned female cowards.
posted by COBRA! at 11:21 AM on August 1, 2005
Really, it's amazing that it took so long for someone to work up the nerve to stand up to those goddamned female cowards.
posted by COBRA! at 11:21 AM on August 1, 2005
Again. Fuck off ParisParamus.
But - ParisParamus' mewling homoerotic worship of Bush and obvious desire for Bolton to insert himself into Paris' various orafice's aside (not that there's anything wrong with that - the homosexuality that is, the worshipful mewing & whining tends to grate) - I'm not seeing how Bolton's appointment can make a real difference either way. He's the ambassador obviously, but he also sits on the UN security council.
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Security_Council
I'm not sure whether the previous ambassador did not want the UN to go to war, but as far as I can tell, although the man in the position would pretty much follow cue's from the administration.
Whether he's a dick or not.
I understand the arguement that he's our public face, but wouldn't a change in policy be more efficacious?
Even if Bolton was smooth as Dickle, I don't think much would go over well anyway. Or am I way off base here?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:22 AM on August 1, 2005
But - ParisParamus' mewling homoerotic worship of Bush and obvious desire for Bolton to insert himself into Paris' various orafice's aside (not that there's anything wrong with that - the homosexuality that is, the worshipful mewing & whining tends to grate) - I'm not seeing how Bolton's appointment can make a real difference either way. He's the ambassador obviously, but he also sits on the UN security council.
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Security_Council
I'm not sure whether the previous ambassador did not want the UN to go to war, but as far as I can tell, although the man in the position would pretty much follow cue's from the administration.
Whether he's a dick or not.
I understand the arguement that he's our public face, but wouldn't a change in policy be more efficacious?
Even if Bolton was smooth as Dickle, I don't think much would go over well anyway. Or am I way off base here?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:22 AM on August 1, 2005
Minority rights? Oh, please. Since where does the choice of an elected leader for a given post constitute a violation of minority rights. How pathetic and desperate of you.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:23 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 11:23 AM on August 1, 2005
Thank you, Mr. President for standing up to the forces of cowardess
Well, at least we know our children is learning.
posted by realcountrymusic at 11:24 AM on August 1, 2005
Well, at least we know our children is learning.
posted by realcountrymusic at 11:24 AM on August 1, 2005
Crooks and Liars has video of UN Ambassador Bolton's comments on the United Nations:
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 AM on August 1, 2005
There is no United Nations. There is an international community that occasionally can be led by the only real power left in the world, and that's the United States, when it suits our interests, and when we can get others to go along.I hope his office is below the 28th floor, just in case.
...
The Secretariat building in New York has 38 stories. If it lost ten stories today, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 AM on August 1, 2005
ParisParasmus: The UN is and has always been under the leadership of the US government, and the US has always had veto power over any UN decision. So if the UN is such a locus of corruption and evil, and so on, wasn't it the failure of our own leadership that made it so? I'd actually prefer it if you didn't answer. This is a rhetorical question.
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 11:33 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 11:33 AM on August 1, 2005
all-seeing. You're hopelessly close-minded. The US didn't cause the UN to become the cesspool it is. The US has payed for a big chunk of its budget, and hoped that the UN would not take on the corrupt, anti-democratic character of most of its members. Well, the UN is now a Cesspool. Time to call in the adults and punish the children. Hopefully.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:38 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 11:38 AM on August 1, 2005
The argument that minority rights are to be protected from the majority isn't democracy, it's liberalism.
whoa, dude. do you have any idea why there was no effective civil rights legislation before 1957? because a smallish group of conservative senators completely controlled the senate from the civil war until then and filibustered every single attempt at passing some, even during periods where public opinion was overwhelmingly in favor of such legislation.
the idea of protecting minority rights was very much a conservative idea until recently.
posted by urban rabbit at 11:39 AM on August 1, 2005
whoa, dude. do you have any idea why there was no effective civil rights legislation before 1957? because a smallish group of conservative senators completely controlled the senate from the civil war until then and filibustered every single attempt at passing some, even during periods where public opinion was overwhelmingly in favor of such legislation.
the idea of protecting minority rights was very much a conservative idea until recently.
posted by urban rabbit at 11:39 AM on August 1, 2005
Bolton joined Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice at the announcement ceremony and said he was honored and humbled by the president's appointment. "It will be a distinct privilege to be an advocate for America's values and interests at the U.N. and, in the words of the U.N. charter, to help maintain international peace and security," he said.
I bet he was smirking when he said that.
posted by kaemaril at 11:42 AM on August 1, 2005
I bet he was smirking when he said that.
posted by kaemaril at 11:42 AM on August 1, 2005
The post has been vacant for over six months, and Congress is only on recess for five weeks, but the president now says that, "this post is too important to leave vacant any longer."
Slate's Fred Kaplan anticipated the recess appointment and has some interesting comments on its meaning and impications:
Slate's Fred Kaplan anticipated the recess appointment and has some interesting comments on its meaning and impications:
If Bolton slips through, he will have been strafed, hit, and mortally wounded--then resurrected by a magic wand waving on the president's outstretched middle finger.posted by kirkaracha at 11:44 AM on August 1, 2005
I don't see how the Bolton appointment differs from Clinton's many recess appointments designed to overcome minority obstructionism. To show that it's a special case, you'd have to be able to put up a list of 6 Republicans who'd vote against the President on the floor of the Senate to get to the 51 "no" votes it would take to defeat his nomination. I don't know that such a list exists.
posted by MattD at 11:45 AM on August 1, 2005
posted by MattD at 11:45 AM on August 1, 2005
can someone please explain why anyone finds it necessary to argue with PP? you might as well argue with your wallpaper.
god, i wish there were more intelligent conservatives on mefi so we could have an meaningful dialogue about stuff like this.
posted by urban rabbit at 11:46 AM on August 1, 2005
god, i wish there were more intelligent conservatives on mefi so we could have an meaningful dialogue about stuff like this.
posted by urban rabbit at 11:46 AM on August 1, 2005
PP: Time to call in the adults and punish the children. Hopefully.
Here here. Do you mean that? Because a lot of American babies are going to get spanked into hermaphrodism if justice is administered where it'd due. Sure, there's plenty of crap in that cesspool. Just because we may not be the bottom-feeders doesn't mean we don't eat the same crud.
posted by Busithoth at 11:46 AM on August 1, 2005
Here here. Do you mean that? Because a lot of American babies are going to get spanked into hermaphrodism if justice is administered where it'd due. Sure, there's plenty of crap in that cesspool. Just because we may not be the bottom-feeders doesn't mean we don't eat the same crud.
posted by Busithoth at 11:46 AM on August 1, 2005
hoped that the UN would not take on the corrupt, anti-democratic character of most of its members
Yes, because only being a member of the permanent security council meant it was utterly powerless to do anything. It could only look on in horror and weep!
BTW, nice use of the word "anti-democratic" in this thread, buddy, or does George Bush's whim equate to the will of the people these days?
posted by kaemaril at 11:47 AM on August 1, 2005
Yes, because only being a member of the permanent security council meant it was utterly powerless to do anything. It could only look on in horror and weep!
BTW, nice use of the word "anti-democratic" in this thread, buddy, or does George Bush's whim equate to the will of the people these days?
posted by kaemaril at 11:47 AM on August 1, 2005
"You're hopelessly close-minded."
Now that's comedy.
Seriously though - what difference does this make?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:49 AM on August 1, 2005
Now that's comedy.
Seriously though - what difference does this make?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:49 AM on August 1, 2005
ParisParasmus:
All right let's hash this out.
If as you say:
"Time to call in the adults and punish the children. Hopefully."
Why didn't the fact that the "adults" have had veto power all along prevent the UN from becoming a cess pool in the first place?
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 11:57 AM on August 1, 2005
All right let's hash this out.
If as you say:
"Time to call in the adults and punish the children. Hopefully."
Why didn't the fact that the "adults" have had veto power all along prevent the UN from becoming a cess pool in the first place?
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 11:57 AM on August 1, 2005
Told you so.
The wingnuts are particularly write-only today.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 12:01 PM on August 1, 2005
The wingnuts are particularly write-only today.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 12:01 PM on August 1, 2005
Anyway, can we just, like, ignore PP? He's already successfully destroyed this thread, which could have been an interesting discussion of recess appointments, their history, valid & invalid reasons for them, the future of the UN, etc. Now it's just pointless arguing with a douchebag. I sometimes wonder if PP even believes half of what he says, or if he's just cutting and pasting shit from LGF forums in order to irritate people. We never seem to learn to simply tune him out. Hopefully the next thread people can mentally block out his nonsense.
posted by papakwanz at 12:10 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by papakwanz at 12:10 PM on August 1, 2005
Amen, papakwanz.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:16 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by Smedleyman at 12:16 PM on August 1, 2005
President Georege W. Bush: 106 recess appointments
President Bill Clinton: 140 recess appointments over two terms.
President Ronald Reagan made 243 over two terms.
how many of these were supreme court justices?
and everybody, for the love of god, do NOT reply to PP!
posted by mcsweetie at 12:17 PM on August 1, 2005
President Bill Clinton: 140 recess appointments over two terms.
President Ronald Reagan made 243 over two terms.
how many of these were supreme court justices?
and everybody, for the love of god, do NOT reply to PP!
posted by mcsweetie at 12:17 PM on August 1, 2005
papakwanz
sorry. you're right. i just keep thinking i can get through to him using reasoning somehow. but you're right. sigh.
getting things back on track: what was that really good point someone made earlier about when recess appointments are and are not appropriate?
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 12:25 PM on August 1, 2005
sorry. you're right. i just keep thinking i can get through to him using reasoning somehow. but you're right. sigh.
getting things back on track: what was that really good point someone made earlier about when recess appointments are and are not appropriate?
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 12:25 PM on August 1, 2005
We never seem to learn to simply tune him out. Hopefully the next thread people can mentally block out his nonsense.
Yes, yes, we all hate PP.
As a brit I forward sympathies to my American cousins... Soon you will all be sealed in fortress 'merica and the only contact the outer world will recieve is from the army, soon to be privatised and renamed the McDonalds-Haliburton-Tommy Hilfigure Peace Givers.
Please send television shows and movies by carrier pigeon once the wall is erected.
You're already starting to dissapear....
posted by Meccabilly at 12:26 PM on August 1, 2005
Yes, yes, we all hate PP.
As a brit I forward sympathies to my American cousins... Soon you will all be sealed in fortress 'merica and the only contact the outer world will recieve is from the army, soon to be privatised and renamed the McDonalds-Haliburton-Tommy Hilfigure Peace Givers.
Please send television shows and movies by carrier pigeon once the wall is erected.
You're already starting to dissapear....
posted by Meccabilly at 12:26 PM on August 1, 2005
You cannot prevent yourselves from replying, acknowledging me. I am the voice of reason, the last embers of which still burn in your mind. Without me, you would go mad. And Metafilter would just be another stupidleftist political web site.
posted by ParisParamus at 12:32 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 12:32 PM on August 1, 2005
LOL. I think PP is trying to compete with Shouting!
posted by five fresh fish at 12:36 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by five fresh fish at 12:36 PM on August 1, 2005
Interesting interview with Senator Harry Reid
. . . Ignoring small insignificant PP gnat buzzing in the background. . .
posted by mk1gti at 12:39 PM on August 1, 2005
. . . Ignoring small insignificant PP gnat buzzing in the background. . .
posted by mk1gti at 12:39 PM on August 1, 2005
I had no idea PP was, in fact, Thulsa Doom.
My child, you have come to me, my son. For who now is your father if it is not me? I am the well spring from which you flow. When I am gone, you will have never been. What would your world be, without me?
posted by selfnoise at 12:49 PM on August 1, 2005
My child, you have come to me, my son. For who now is your father if it is not me? I am the well spring from which you flow. When I am gone, you will have never been. What would your world be, without me?
posted by selfnoise at 12:49 PM on August 1, 2005
You cannot prevent yourselves from replying, acknowledging me. I am the voice of reason, the last embers of which still burn in your mind. Without me, you would go mad. And Metafilter would just be another stupidleftist political web site.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
You're joking, right?
posted by oaf at 12:58 PM on August 1, 2005
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
You're joking, right?
posted by oaf at 12:58 PM on August 1, 2005
Did anyone else ever notice how his head looks like its about to explode? I think he's not one of the psychos who believes the neocons are fighting for all that is pure and good. I think he understands the reality of what he is doing but is willing to hold down his conscience for personal gain.
...For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his
own soul?
-George W. Bush's favorite philosopher
posted by leapingsheep at 1:04 PM on August 1, 2005
...For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his
own soul?
-George W. Bush's favorite philosopher
posted by leapingsheep at 1:04 PM on August 1, 2005
I think PP's just a compulsive pantswetter crying for attention the only way she knows how.
posted by mk1gti at 1:08 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by mk1gti at 1:08 PM on August 1, 2005
Next up? Appointing Rove to the Supreme Court and then making John McCain wear an adult diaper to a press conference. Because Bush knows its the right thing to do, he just knows it.
Anyone second guessing Bush should be second guessing themselves, he's a gunslinger with a quick wit and a smirk that'd melt an ice maiden's cold heart.
Now its all clear. I've always loved George W. Bush, he's the only one that can see clearly to the end of the tunnel. He's a man of vision and persistence and has had nothing but success and success in his life. Those durned lib'ruls had me all confused, Bush is God, God is Bush, Bush Bless America! Halleluyahgobble!
All hail, King George!
Oh wait, we don't live in a monarchy? Well then, how's about a damned impeachment process getting underway to remove this moron who thinks he's above checks and balances to his powergrabs? I'm ready to sign a petition calling for his impeachment.
posted by fenriq at 1:12 PM on August 1, 2005
Anyone second guessing Bush should be second guessing themselves, he's a gunslinger with a quick wit and a smirk that'd melt an ice maiden's cold heart.
Now its all clear. I've always loved George W. Bush, he's the only one that can see clearly to the end of the tunnel. He's a man of vision and persistence and has had nothing but success and success in his life. Those durned lib'ruls had me all confused, Bush is God, God is Bush, Bush Bless America! Halleluyahgobble!
All hail, King George!
Oh wait, we don't live in a monarchy? Well then, how's about a damned impeachment process getting underway to remove this moron who thinks he's above checks and balances to his powergrabs? I'm ready to sign a petition calling for his impeachment.
posted by fenriq at 1:12 PM on August 1, 2005
"I am the voice of reason, the last embers of which still burn in your mind."
Dude, give it up. Shouting stole your poop stick and he's not going to surrender it without a fight.
posted by 2sheets at 1:14 PM on August 1, 2005
Dude, give it up. Shouting stole your poop stick and he's not going to surrender it without a fight.
posted by 2sheets at 1:14 PM on August 1, 2005
now yr talking!
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 1:16 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 1:16 PM on August 1, 2005
You cannot prevent yourselves from replying, acknowledging me. I am the voice of reason, the last embers of which still burn in your mind. Without me, you would go mad.
if you're the voice of reason, why do you speak in bad lyrical poetry?
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 1:21 PM on August 1, 2005
if you're the voice of reason, why do you speak in bad lyrical poetry?
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 1:21 PM on August 1, 2005
The argument that minority rights are to be protected from the majority isn't democracy, it's liberalism.
Oh, no! Who knew? For shame. What sort of animals would support an idea like that?
posted by Pollomacho at 1:26 PM on August 1, 2005
Oh, no! Who knew? For shame. What sort of animals would support an idea like that?
posted by Pollomacho at 1:26 PM on August 1, 2005
I had no idea PP was, in fact, Thulsa Doom.
posted by selfnoise at 3:49 PM EST on August 1 [!]
Selfnoise wins.
posted by unreason at 1:28 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by selfnoise at 3:49 PM EST on August 1 [!]
Selfnoise wins.
posted by unreason at 1:28 PM on August 1, 2005
Hardly. Thulsa Doom was nowhere near as annoying. Plus, he was quite cool.
posted by kaemaril at 1:35 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by kaemaril at 1:35 PM on August 1, 2005
No, Kaemaril's right. PP is not, in fact, a mind-dominating reptile pimp.
posted by selfnoise at 1:55 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by selfnoise at 1:55 PM on August 1, 2005
PP, please stop typing one-handed.
This thread is redeemed by references to The Watchmen and Conan.
I'm also a fan of Dante--John Bolton is going to end up on the appropriate layer of being shunned, ignored, and ridiculed by the rest of the world community. Amen.
posted by bardic at 2:03 PM on August 1, 2005
This thread is redeemed by references to The Watchmen and Conan.
I'm also a fan of Dante--John Bolton is going to end up on the appropriate layer of being shunned, ignored, and ridiculed by the rest of the world community. Amen.
posted by bardic at 2:03 PM on August 1, 2005
I never made but one prayer to God, a very short one, "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And ParisParamis granted it.
(Voltaire)
posted by Smedleyman at 2:09 PM on August 1, 2005
(Voltaire)
posted by Smedleyman at 2:09 PM on August 1, 2005
Of course we're not talking about the appointment, which I actually was interested in. So, thanks again PP for fucking it all up.
But again - the broader picture of Bush aside - what kind of impact would appointing someone decent have if we still have the same policies?
We don't have a Ben Franklin to be our negotiator (and I concede Bolton seems to be in this analogy the rough eqivalent of John Adams or John Jay), we don't have someone with his genius and character who might resist policies antithetical to progress. So given that we're going to have someone representing the interests of this administration anyway - what's the difference if Bolton is an asshole?
- excepting of course his utter lack of merit for the job. I mean what's the difference from the position of joe citizen?
posted by Smedleyman at 2:19 PM on August 1, 2005
But again - the broader picture of Bush aside - what kind of impact would appointing someone decent have if we still have the same policies?
We don't have a Ben Franklin to be our negotiator (and I concede Bolton seems to be in this analogy the rough eqivalent of John Adams or John Jay), we don't have someone with his genius and character who might resist policies antithetical to progress. So given that we're going to have someone representing the interests of this administration anyway - what's the difference if Bolton is an asshole?
- excepting of course his utter lack of merit for the job. I mean what's the difference from the position of joe citizen?
posted by Smedleyman at 2:19 PM on August 1, 2005
The complete asshole move by George W. Bush.
Anyone truly surprised by this ? I know I'm not. Only thing I am surprised about is his willingness to show his true colors in all their blowhard glory. The man's making enemies right and left and I love it. Can't wait for the Rove leak to explode Watergate-style in the Fall. That's gonna be some good Television.
Quack...quack.
posted by Skygazer at 2:25 PM on August 1, 2005
Anyone truly surprised by this ? I know I'm not. Only thing I am surprised about is his willingness to show his true colors in all their blowhard glory. The man's making enemies right and left and I love it. Can't wait for the Rove leak to explode Watergate-style in the Fall. That's gonna be some good Television.
Quack...quack.
posted by Skygazer at 2:25 PM on August 1, 2005
"Can't wait for the Rove leak to explode Watergate-style in the Fall. That's gonna be some good Television."
You'll be waiting an awful long time
posted by TetrisKid at 2:28 PM on August 1, 2005
You'll be waiting an awful long time
posted by TetrisKid at 2:28 PM on August 1, 2005
Notice that, of our two resident right-wingers, one guy actually posted facts (though beaten to it by "mediareport"), while the other guy when s/he wasn't mindlessly ranting, made statements that were consistently at odds with facts. And while I appreciate the former, the latter seems more representative of what we see out of the White House, these days.
That said, can we just automate the process, where all political threads automatically include a bot who uses arguments such as, "Bush won the election" in support of their POV and other such media-talking points so that the Bush-lovers can feel as though the ubiquitous one-liners have already been mentioned, and they can find something else to say?
posted by deanc at 2:32 PM on August 1, 2005
That said, can we just automate the process, where all political threads automatically include a bot who uses arguments such as, "Bush won the election" in support of their POV and other such media-talking points so that the Bush-lovers can feel as though the ubiquitous one-liners have already been mentioned, and they can find something else to say?
posted by deanc at 2:32 PM on August 1, 2005
Bleh.... You know why this happens. Everything has already been said/re-said/and spun. A political bot would be an amusing project (and probably more informative).
posted by TetrisKid at 2:42 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by TetrisKid at 2:42 PM on August 1, 2005
Smedleyman
My thoughts on the Bolton appt. are that in the short term it won't mean much while the UN 'settles in' and tries to get along with him, but I think that based on his past history he'll throw a monkey wrench in there that will not bode well for international relations and take a very long time to fix afterwards, if ever.
One side says 'this is just what the UN needed', the other says 'we're doomed, we're all doomed.'
I am firmly in the 'doomed' camp. The manner and timing of that 'doom' is yet to be decided. I guess we'll all have to break out the popcorn and the lounge chairs to wait and see.
I have hopes that the right will learn a very hard and painful lesson from this. We've been waiting for them to 'learn their lesson' for some time now. Perhaps this will be one of those final 'straws that breaks the camel's back'. Oh, excuse me 'the freedom frie's back'. Don't want to use an un-'murican metaphor there. . .
posted by mk1gti at 2:44 PM on August 1, 2005
My thoughts on the Bolton appt. are that in the short term it won't mean much while the UN 'settles in' and tries to get along with him, but I think that based on his past history he'll throw a monkey wrench in there that will not bode well for international relations and take a very long time to fix afterwards, if ever.
One side says 'this is just what the UN needed', the other says 'we're doomed, we're all doomed.'
I am firmly in the 'doomed' camp. The manner and timing of that 'doom' is yet to be decided. I guess we'll all have to break out the popcorn and the lounge chairs to wait and see.
I have hopes that the right will learn a very hard and painful lesson from this. We've been waiting for them to 'learn their lesson' for some time now. Perhaps this will be one of those final 'straws that breaks the camel's back'. Oh, excuse me 'the freedom frie's back'. Don't want to use an un-'murican metaphor there. . .
posted by mk1gti at 2:44 PM on August 1, 2005
I propose a script that links to the Conyers Report every time somebody mentions the 2004 election.
posted by muckster at 2:46 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by muckster at 2:46 PM on August 1, 2005
Prescription plan must have run out again. 'E's off 'is meds.
posted by zoogleplex at 2:55 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by zoogleplex at 2:55 PM on August 1, 2005
I am the voice of reason, the last embers of which still burn in your mind. Without me, you would go mad. And Metafilter would just be another stupidleftist political web site.
posted by Smart Dalek at 2:56 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by Smart Dalek at 2:56 PM on August 1, 2005
You know how "old money" families tend to self-destruct after a few generations? The first generation will make a few billion dollars and amass great power, the second generation will diversify the holdings and overindulge his children to no end, and the playboy third generation piss it all away, leaving the fourth generation relatively poor compared to ol' great-grandpa.
I think that's what's happening to the Bush family. Ol' grandpa nazi-loving Bush had all sorts of money and power. Bush Sr. did a grand job of extending that power but was far too lenient on his playboy children, bailing them out of stupid situations time and again. The Bush Jrs. are busy fucking up all that his ancestors built up, and the current crop of young Bush children are going to have to make their own way in this world.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:09 PM on August 1, 2005
I think that's what's happening to the Bush family. Ol' grandpa nazi-loving Bush had all sorts of money and power. Bush Sr. did a grand job of extending that power but was far too lenient on his playboy children, bailing them out of stupid situations time and again. The Bush Jrs. are busy fucking up all that his ancestors built up, and the current crop of young Bush children are going to have to make their own way in this world.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:09 PM on August 1, 2005
You guys sure are getting your knickers in a twist over this ...
What's the issue here? Now we may have various views about GWB, but he certainly seems to have a strong reason for appointing Bolton to the UN. There seem to be two possible reasons:
I'd love to hear what the vocal doomsayers think is the reason behind GWB's appointment (it might be 'wrong', but even Republicans don't do the wrong thing just for the hell of it!).
posted by daveg at 3:11 PM on August 1, 2005
What's the issue here? Now we may have various views about GWB, but he certainly seems to have a strong reason for appointing Bolton to the UN. There seem to be two possible reasons:
- GWB and his advisors believe that Bolton can effect significant change in the UN (reducing corruption and other things that GWB would like to see happen)
- Bolton is seen as a disruptive force, who won't be able to achieve any positive results, but will be able to stop the UN achieving any of the things that GWB opposes
I'd love to hear what the vocal doomsayers think is the reason behind GWB's appointment (it might be 'wrong', but even Republicans don't do the wrong thing just for the hell of it!).
posted by daveg at 3:11 PM on August 1, 2005
I'd be willing to put money on #2. Putting someone like Bolton in is not sending the message of "we like the UN and we want to improve it." He's not there to fix things and make the global body work. Rather, I think he's there to send the message that the US will do what it wants to do and only turn to the UN when the US needs help.
posted by Moral Animal at 3:53 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by Moral Animal at 3:53 PM on August 1, 2005
Short version: The Senate refused to allow a vote on Bolton until the White House released key intelligence documents relevant to his previous position. The White House refused, so as a means of getting Bolton appointed without releasing those documents, Bush gave him a recess appt.
The documents themselves don't strike me as a big mystery, since I think most people already know that Bolton was involved in "fixing" the intelligence around the "invade iraq policy," and his abusive behavior to intelligence experts who didn't tell him what he wanted to hear and/or challenged his claims is well-attested to.
posted by deanc at 3:57 PM on August 1, 2005
The documents themselves don't strike me as a big mystery, since I think most people already know that Bolton was involved in "fixing" the intelligence around the "invade iraq policy," and his abusive behavior to intelligence experts who didn't tell him what he wanted to hear and/or challenged his claims is well-attested to.
posted by deanc at 3:57 PM on August 1, 2005
Urban Rabit, Pollomacho:
"whoa, dude. do you have any idea why there was no effective civil rights legislation before 1957? because a smallish group of conservative senators completely controlled the senate from the civil war until then and filibustered every single attempt at passing some, even during periods where public opinion was overwhelmingly in favor of such legislation.
the idea of protecting minority rights was very much a conservative idea until recently."
Heh. It's you who has too narrow a historical perspective. Liberalism was the movement in the Enlightenment based on the idea that men had inalienable rights (liberties) that were God-given ("natural rights"). Those rights to Locke, the first major liberal political philosopher, were Life, Liberty of Motion and Body, and Property.
The US is a Liberal Democracy, and a Republic in specific. The reason why we have seperated houses of representatives and checks and balances within our government is because of our liberal core.
For a country whose politics are based more on classical democracy than on classical liberalism (though still a liberal democracy), see France. Oddly enough, both Fascism and Communism are post-democratic political ideologies, based on a magnification of the masses into totalitarianism.
Sorry. You probably didn't want all of that.
posted by klangklangston at 3:57 PM on August 1, 2005
"whoa, dude. do you have any idea why there was no effective civil rights legislation before 1957? because a smallish group of conservative senators completely controlled the senate from the civil war until then and filibustered every single attempt at passing some, even during periods where public opinion was overwhelmingly in favor of such legislation.
the idea of protecting minority rights was very much a conservative idea until recently."
Heh. It's you who has too narrow a historical perspective. Liberalism was the movement in the Enlightenment based on the idea that men had inalienable rights (liberties) that were God-given ("natural rights"). Those rights to Locke, the first major liberal political philosopher, were Life, Liberty of Motion and Body, and Property.
The US is a Liberal Democracy, and a Republic in specific. The reason why we have seperated houses of representatives and checks and balances within our government is because of our liberal core.
For a country whose politics are based more on classical democracy than on classical liberalism (though still a liberal democracy), see France. Oddly enough, both Fascism and Communism are post-democratic political ideologies, based on a magnification of the masses into totalitarianism.
Sorry. You probably didn't want all of that.
posted by klangklangston at 3:57 PM on August 1, 2005
> It's JOHN "YOSEMITE SAM" BOLTON being APPOINTED U.N. AMBASSADOR.
...while Yosemite Sam himself will be presenting his credentials at the Palais de l'Élysée.
posted by jfuller at 4:17 PM on August 1, 2005
...while Yosemite Sam himself will be presenting his credentials at the Palais de l'Élysée.
posted by jfuller at 4:17 PM on August 1, 2005
What really sucks is that the public can't watch the UN General Assembly "do its thing." In person (whatever that is). Shouldn't it at least be televised? Yes, that should be a new precondition for US funding.
posted by ParisParamus at 4:23 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 4:23 PM on August 1, 2005
> I think that's what's happening to the Bush family. Ol' grandpa nazi-loving
> Bush had all sorts of money and power. Bush Sr. did a grand job of extending
> that power but was far too lenient on his playboy children, bailing them out of
> stupid situations time and again. The Bush Jrs. are busy fucking up all that
> his ancestors built up, and the current crop of young Bush children are going
> to have to make their own way in this world.
I do so agree. And it's equally true, be it noted, if you start the reckoning with Ol' grandpa nazi-loving Joe Kennedy.
posted by jfuller at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2005
> Bush had all sorts of money and power. Bush Sr. did a grand job of extending
> that power but was far too lenient on his playboy children, bailing them out of
> stupid situations time and again. The Bush Jrs. are busy fucking up all that
> his ancestors built up, and the current crop of young Bush children are going
> to have to make their own way in this world.
I do so agree. And it's equally true, be it noted, if you start the reckoning with Ol' grandpa nazi-loving Joe Kennedy.
posted by jfuller at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2005
What really sucks is that the public can't watch the UN General Assembly "do its thing" in person (whatever that is). Shouldn't it at least be televised? Yes, that should be a new precondition for US funding.
posted by ParisParamus at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2005
What really sucks is that the public can't watch the UN General Assembly "do its thing" in person (whatever that is). Shouldn't it at least be televised? Yes, that should be a new precondition for US funding.
posted by digaman at 4:31 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by digaman at 4:31 PM on August 1, 2005
He's more Wally Walrus than Yosemite Sam, in my opinion.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:39 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by kirkaracha at 4:39 PM on August 1, 2005
daveg:
Appointing Swingin' John Bolton to the UN is the 21st Century equivalent of appointing your horse as consul.
posted by rdone at 4:58 PM on August 1, 2005
Appointing Swingin' John Bolton to the UN is the 21st Century equivalent of appointing your horse as consul.
posted by rdone at 4:58 PM on August 1, 2005
Wow. Just... wow.
Someone here actually quoted Thulsa Doom as an attempt at a legitimate debate tactic. What's next, the Honorable Judge Red Sonja, presiding?
posted by JHarris at 5:06 PM on August 1, 2005
Someone here actually quoted Thulsa Doom as an attempt at a legitimate debate tactic. What's next, the Honorable Judge Red Sonja, presiding?
posted by JHarris at 5:06 PM on August 1, 2005
He may become the greatest US representative at the UN ever; up there at least with DPM.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:08 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 5:08 PM on August 1, 2005
umm, why did both digaman and paris post exactly the same comment just now?
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 5:08 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by all-seeing eye dog at 5:08 PM on August 1, 2005
He was the the force behind getting the "Zionism is Racism" resolution withdrawn--a great man.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:10 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 5:10 PM on August 1, 2005
One recalls that the horse Incitatus owned a marble stable, an ivory stall, a jewelled collar; a house, furniture, and slaves. Any of this for Mr. Bolton?
> Shouldn't it at least be televised?
More appropriately, a road show. With Bolton as Mr. Interlocutor and Kofi Annan as Mr. Bones.
posted by jfuller at 5:13 PM on August 1, 2005
> Shouldn't it at least be televised?
More appropriately, a road show. With Bolton as Mr. Interlocutor and Kofi Annan as Mr. Bones.
posted by jfuller at 5:13 PM on August 1, 2005
I doubt they'll ever televise the UN assembly. I mean, who'd pay for it? The UN itself? Doubtful. The moment they tried to get approval for the money the US would veto it, worried that the word "abortion" might leak out from a debate onto the public airwaves. After all, we all know the US doesn't like their money going to people who use the "A" word...
posted by kaemaril at 5:32 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by kaemaril at 5:32 PM on August 1, 2005
Jharris:What's next, the Honorable Judge Red Sonja, presiding?
Doubtful. Bush is keeping her in reserve in case Roberts doesn't get the nod :)
posted by kaemaril at 5:34 PM on August 1, 2005
Doubtful. Bush is keeping her in reserve in case Roberts doesn't get the nod :)
posted by kaemaril at 5:34 PM on August 1, 2005
I'd love to hear what the vocal doomsayers think is the reason behind GWB's appointment (it might be 'wrong', but even Republicans don't do the wrong thing just for the hell of it!).
The rumor is that one of the conditions for Rice moving to State was that Bolton be shipped off to NYC where he would be less likely to stick his fingers in other people's business:
Bolton's time at the State Department under Rice has been brief. But authoritative officials said Bolton let her go on her first European trip without knowing about the growing opposition there to Bolton's campaign to oust the head of the U.N. nuclear agency. "She went off without knowing the details of what everybody else was saying about how they were not going to join the campaign," according to a senior official. Bolton has been trying to replace Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, who is perceived by some within the Bush administration as too soft on Iran.
Publicly, Rice has staunchly defended Bolton's credentials and urged the Senate to quickly confirm him. But privately, officials said, she has kept him out of key discussions on Iran since taking over in January.
I don't think Connie is going to get her wish though:
Two months ago, while his confirmation was in trouble, Bolton began efforts to double the office space reserved within the State Department for the ambassador to the United Nations, according to three senior department officials who were involved in handling the request.
Previous ambassadors have kept a small staff in Washington in a modest suite. Bolton told several colleagues he needed more space and a larger staff in Washington because, if confirmed, he intended to spend more time here than his predecessors did. "Bolton isn't going to sit in New York while policy gets made in Washington," the administration source said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the source lacked authorization to discuss this on the record.
posted by longdaysjourney at 5:36 PM on August 1, 2005
The rumor is that one of the conditions for Rice moving to State was that Bolton be shipped off to NYC where he would be less likely to stick his fingers in other people's business:
Bolton's time at the State Department under Rice has been brief. But authoritative officials said Bolton let her go on her first European trip without knowing about the growing opposition there to Bolton's campaign to oust the head of the U.N. nuclear agency. "She went off without knowing the details of what everybody else was saying about how they were not going to join the campaign," according to a senior official. Bolton has been trying to replace Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, who is perceived by some within the Bush administration as too soft on Iran.
Publicly, Rice has staunchly defended Bolton's credentials and urged the Senate to quickly confirm him. But privately, officials said, she has kept him out of key discussions on Iran since taking over in January.
I don't think Connie is going to get her wish though:
Two months ago, while his confirmation was in trouble, Bolton began efforts to double the office space reserved within the State Department for the ambassador to the United Nations, according to three senior department officials who were involved in handling the request.
Previous ambassadors have kept a small staff in Washington in a modest suite. Bolton told several colleagues he needed more space and a larger staff in Washington because, if confirmed, he intended to spend more time here than his predecessors did. "Bolton isn't going to sit in New York while policy gets made in Washington," the administration source said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the source lacked authorization to discuss this on the record.
posted by longdaysjourney at 5:36 PM on August 1, 2005
Or "Condie" rather, bleagh.
posted by longdaysjourney at 5:37 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by longdaysjourney at 5:37 PM on August 1, 2005
Perry Pantswetter at it again:
' He was the the force behind getting the "Zionism is Racism" resolution withdrawn--a great man.' *sniff* tinkle. Oooopssy.
posted by mk1gti at 5:40 PM on August 1, 2005
' He was the the force behind getting the "Zionism is Racism" resolution withdrawn--a great man.' *sniff* tinkle. Oooopssy.
posted by mk1gti at 5:40 PM on August 1, 2005
...authoritative officials said Bolton let her go on her first European trip without knowing about the growing opposition there to Bolton's campaign to oust the head of the U.N. nuclear agency
Have these people not heard of the Internet? Crikey, it's not like Condi wouldn't have found out for herself if she'd just skim the freakin' headlines of some world newspapers.
jfuller: And, come to think of it, I think the Ford family probably shows much the same pattern. The Brits have their own version: the Queen Mum was cool and the Queen is pretty cool, but her kids are useless twats.
Maybe that's the comfort we can take in all this: no matter the jerk at the top of the heap today, it won't last for more than a couple generations.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:58 PM on August 1, 2005
Have these people not heard of the Internet? Crikey, it's not like Condi wouldn't have found out for herself if she'd just skim the freakin' headlines of some world newspapers.
jfuller: And, come to think of it, I think the Ford family probably shows much the same pattern. The Brits have their own version: the Queen Mum was cool and the Queen is pretty cool, but her kids are useless twats.
Maybe that's the comfort we can take in all this: no matter the jerk at the top of the heap today, it won't last for more than a couple generations.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:58 PM on August 1, 2005
Paris Partisan: Sorry gang; just one more response to PP. ( in the sprit of telling the turth. )It's not only the Deomcrats who were stopping Bolton. Sen. George Voinovich (the guy who defeated Dennis Kucinch for Mayor after Dennis' battle to save public power in Cleveland) made the opposition to Bolton real; The Dems didn't have the votes. PP should certainly be trashing a turncoat Ehh?
posted by bill.cleanpeace at 6:18 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by bill.cleanpeace at 6:18 PM on August 1, 2005
Regardless, this current administration has a unique talent for unraveling everything and anything that made 'murica great and prosperous and exposing the ugly underbelly for all to see.
I think that with this latest act the U.S. is giving more and more countries reason to examine life without the U.S. and finding it not as bad as they once thought.
posted by mk1gti at 6:36 PM on August 1, 2005
I think that with this latest act the U.S. is giving more and more countries reason to examine life without the U.S. and finding it not as bad as they once thought.
posted by mk1gti at 6:36 PM on August 1, 2005
"PP should certainly be trashing a turncoat Ehh?"
That supposes I don't think there are idiots on both sides of the aisle and that my alliegance
posted by ParisParamus at 6:51 PM on August 1, 2005
That supposes I don't think there are idiots on both sides of the aisle and that my alliegance
posted by ParisParamus at 6:51 PM on August 1, 2005
"PP should certainly be trashing a turncoat Ehh?"
That supposes I don't think there are idiots on both sides of the aisle and that my allegiances are to people rather than to ideas: incorrect on both counts.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:53 PM on August 1, 2005
That supposes I don't think there are idiots on both sides of the aisle and that my allegiances are to people rather than to ideas: incorrect on both counts.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:53 PM on August 1, 2005
All-Seeing Eye Dog, I find this peculiar, too. Two PP posts, and a digaman post with exactly the same words at the same time as the second post
Maybe someone had some problems submittingm, got their sessions mixed up and now an agent provocateur has been exposed.
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:54 PM on August 1, 2005
Maybe someone had some problems submittingm, got their sessions mixed up and now an agent provocateur has been exposed.
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:54 PM on August 1, 2005
(ignore that extra 'm' or take it and put it to use if you need one)
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:56 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:56 PM on August 1, 2005
could it be that digamon and PP are the same? Inquiring minds want to know. . .
posted by mk1gti at 6:57 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by mk1gti at 6:57 PM on August 1, 2005
video of Bolton being booed as he enters the UN today
posted by amberglow at 8:05 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by amberglow at 8:05 PM on August 1, 2005
You can’t try to change the administration’s course by appealing to facts and argument: they’ve rejected facts and argument, on principle.
Most people seem not to understand that when we deal with the Bush administration, we are dealing with something unique, and uniquely dangerous: an administration which is fully committed to an ideology—an ideology that is entirely self-contained and completely self-referencing. It is not concerned with facts, evidence, logic and argument. It is concerned only with its own internal vision of the world, and how that world should be constructed and how it should operate.
So even if there are many utterly compelling arguments against the Bolton appointment, or against attacking Iran, none of that matters. ...
posted by amberglow at 8:11 PM on August 1, 2005
Most people seem not to understand that when we deal with the Bush administration, we are dealing with something unique, and uniquely dangerous: an administration which is fully committed to an ideology—an ideology that is entirely self-contained and completely self-referencing. It is not concerned with facts, evidence, logic and argument. It is concerned only with its own internal vision of the world, and how that world should be constructed and how it should operate.
So even if there are many utterly compelling arguments against the Bolton appointment, or against attacking Iran, none of that matters. ...
posted by amberglow at 8:11 PM on August 1, 2005
the u s constitution, article 2, section 2 --
"The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session."
ok, bolton sucks ... but let's drop the bullshit about "we're giving the iraqis a hypocritical example of democracy to go by"
1. we live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy
2. the iraqis are trying to build a constitutional republic, not a democracy
3. it's a dumb move by bush, but a perfectly legal one
4. for god's sake, if we're going to argue against it, can we please put some thought in our arguments?
posted by pyramid termite at 8:48 PM on August 1, 2005
"The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session."
ok, bolton sucks ... but let's drop the bullshit about "we're giving the iraqis a hypocritical example of democracy to go by"
1. we live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy
2. the iraqis are trying to build a constitutional republic, not a democracy
3. it's a dumb move by bush, but a perfectly legal one
4. for god's sake, if we're going to argue against it, can we please put some thought in our arguments?
posted by pyramid termite at 8:48 PM on August 1, 2005
amberglow: mu ha ha ha!
posted by ParisParamus at 8:52 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 8:52 PM on August 1, 2005
Actually, I'd love to see UN meetings televised. But I watch CSPAN (and sometimes CSPAN2), so I know that I'm a dork. The real problem is that, much like watching the Senate, there are really constrictive rules to the speaking time, which means that you'd get a 20-minute or so speech, followed by an hour of recess where everyone does the real work in small clumps of horsetrading (just like in our own government).
And the chances that it would enlighten the enemies of the UN to the work done on, say, ECOSOC, leading them to abandon their ignorant protestations? Slim.
posted by klangklangston at 9:18 PM on August 1, 2005
And the chances that it would enlighten the enemies of the UN to the work done on, say, ECOSOC, leading them to abandon their ignorant protestations? Slim.
posted by klangklangston at 9:18 PM on August 1, 2005
the U.S. is the only country out there with it's unique form of government. Every other 'free' nation has a parliamentary form of government. Could this be one of those reasons?
posted by mk1gti at 9:23 PM on August 1, 2005
posted by mk1gti at 9:23 PM on August 1, 2005
Clinton considered a recess appointment for Richard Holbrooke, but Holbrooke refused:
posted by kirkaracha at 9:32 PM on August 1, 2005
Bolton isn't the first UN ambassador nominee to be stalled by partisan bickering. Richard Holbrooke, who was nominated to the post by President Bill Clinton in 1998, was held up for 14 months before winning confirmation in August 1999.Conversely, it looks like Bolton pressed for a recess appointment.
At one point during the long stalemate, White House officials raised the prospect of a recess appointment with Holbrooke, according to two people who were involved in the matter. Holbrooke refused, saying it would diminish his credibility at UN.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:32 PM on August 1, 2005
I think that with this latest act the U.S. is giving more and more countries reason to examine life without the U.S. and finding it not as bad as they once thought.
I'm certain that this is exactly what happens. Despite the softwood lumber dispute being settled time and again in Canada's favour and yet the USA continues to illegally tariff our lumber. I'm not in the timber industry in any way, shape, or form, and yet this pisses me off to no end, quite unlike the beef ban.
Well, it pissed the timber companies off, too, and so they're now looking for markets outside the USA and succeeding. There is little doubt in my mind that Canadian softwoods will find an immense and higher-paying market, such that they cease trading with the US.
And lest you think this is a good thing, take note that almost every US manufacturer that relies on cheap wood has sided with the Canadian timber industry. The state and federal governments, by applying a tariff that benefits their big meal-ticket corporate donors exclusively, is sacrificing the livelihoods of thousands of working-class employees and employers in dozens of sectors, from home building to mattress making. Anything that uses cheap softwood.
So, yah: the businesses in our countries, and because of them, our government as regards international trade and negotiations, are having to be real careful about dealing with the USA, and are realizing that they need to cover their asses and find other, better customers. And that might not be better in terms of paying more, but in actually paying.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:46 PM on August 1, 2005
I'm certain that this is exactly what happens. Despite the softwood lumber dispute being settled time and again in Canada's favour and yet the USA continues to illegally tariff our lumber. I'm not in the timber industry in any way, shape, or form, and yet this pisses me off to no end, quite unlike the beef ban.
Well, it pissed the timber companies off, too, and so they're now looking for markets outside the USA and succeeding. There is little doubt in my mind that Canadian softwoods will find an immense and higher-paying market, such that they cease trading with the US.
And lest you think this is a good thing, take note that almost every US manufacturer that relies on cheap wood has sided with the Canadian timber industry. The state and federal governments, by applying a tariff that benefits their big meal-ticket corporate donors exclusively, is sacrificing the livelihoods of thousands of working-class employees and employers in dozens of sectors, from home building to mattress making. Anything that uses cheap softwood.
So, yah: the businesses in our countries, and because of them, our government as regards international trade and negotiations, are having to be real careful about dealing with the USA, and are realizing that they need to cover their asses and find other, better customers. And that might not be better in terms of paying more, but in actually paying.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:46 PM on August 1, 2005
I can't believe that Paris is still goading us.. Didn't Matt give him a scolding in the "Paris is a dipshit in a LGF shirt" thread?
posted by Balisong at 12:24 AM on August 2, 2005
posted by Balisong at 12:24 AM on August 2, 2005
See this whole thing won't amount to anything. Did you see Bolton in that panel discussion dissing the UN generally (it's in this thread, somewhere)? He's a bully. And bullies, when put in a position they can't drive, turn into pussies. That's what'll happen to Bolton. Nobody will report it as such, but the lack of news will be the sign of his pussiness. Think about this from an accountability perspective: Bolton's been set up as the man to shake up and reform the UN. In a reality-based world, such a person would have to deliver some results or be called out for it. In this "world of the administration's own making", he, like everyone else, will not be held accountable at all. Which for him means being a pussy.
New York Mefi-ers, listen for the wet slapping sounds of Bolton being a pussy the next time you're out on the east side.
posted by Pliskie at 3:42 AM on August 2, 2005
New York Mefi-ers, listen for the wet slapping sounds of Bolton being a pussy the next time you're out on the east side.
posted by Pliskie at 3:42 AM on August 2, 2005
OK. He'll be a pussy. Now go back to sleep the world is improved...
posted by ParisParamus at 3:49 AM on August 2, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 3:49 AM on August 2, 2005
OK. He'll be a pussy. Now go back to sleep as the world is improved...
posted by ParisParamus at 3:50 AM on August 2, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 3:50 AM on August 2, 2005
I am waiting for a Shouting v. ParisParamus steel-cage match!
"YOU FEAR ME!"
"I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA"
"STUPID CHILD!" "CHILD!"
". . . Jinx."
posted by jenovus at 5:41 AM on August 2, 2005
"YOU FEAR ME!"
"I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA"
"STUPID CHILD!" "CHILD!"
". . . Jinx."
posted by jenovus at 5:41 AM on August 2, 2005
Paris, you're double posting comments so often it has to be purposeful.
Stop it.
posted by Ynoxas at 6:10 AM on August 2, 2005
Stop it.
posted by Ynoxas at 6:10 AM on August 2, 2005
Shouting is in time out over in the corner for being bad or your wish might have been granted jenovus.
How's the ambulance chasing business going PeePee?
posted by nofundy at 6:10 AM on August 2, 2005
How's the ambulance chasing business going PeePee?
posted by nofundy at 6:10 AM on August 2, 2005
mk1gti - ah, so he is SUCH an asshole that he would do something outside parroting policy, etc. to gum up the works with this abusive behavior of his.
Ok, makes sense to me.
I don’t see how he, as one vote, could do much to influence the UN toward the US’s position anyway without backing from policy. But I do see how he could, despite policy, screw the pooch on the more sensitive issues - given what folks are saying about him is true.
"What really sucks is that the public can't watch the UN General Assembly "do its thing" in person (whatever that is)."
Good point digaman.
On a completely unrelated topic: anyone hear about those right wingers being paid to post on blogs?
http://markschmitt.typepad.com/decembrist/2005/03/the_rightwing_b.html
posted by Smedleyman at 1:03 PM on August 2, 2005
Ok, makes sense to me.
I don’t see how he, as one vote, could do much to influence the UN toward the US’s position anyway without backing from policy. But I do see how he could, despite policy, screw the pooch on the more sensitive issues - given what folks are saying about him is true.
"What really sucks is that the public can't watch the UN General Assembly "do its thing" in person (whatever that is)."
Good point digaman.
On a completely unrelated topic: anyone hear about those right wingers being paid to post on blogs?
http://markschmitt.typepad.com/decembrist/2005/03/the_rightwing_b.html
posted by Smedleyman at 1:03 PM on August 2, 2005
Nofundy: How's psychotic politcs treating you?
posted by ParisParamus at 1:19 PM on August 2, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 1:19 PM on August 2, 2005
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Now we're actively promoting assholes to prominant posts because the rest of the world supposedly needs some "tough love"?
Somebody stop the ride, etc etc.
posted by BobFrapples at 8:25 AM on August 1, 2005