...and Germans LOVE David Hasselhoff
August 3, 2005 9:50 AM Subscribe
Retarded people love Huey Lewis & the News.
Do you like Huey Lewis and the news?
Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes, but when Sports came out in '83, I think they really came into their own, commercial and artistically. The whole album has a clear, crisp sound, and a new sheen of consummate professionalism that really gives the songs a big boost. He's been compared to Elvis Costello, but I think Huey has a far much more bitter, cynical sense of humor.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:53 AM on August 3, 2005
Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes, but when Sports came out in '83, I think they really came into their own, commercial and artistically. The whole album has a clear, crisp sound, and a new sheen of consummate professionalism that really gives the songs a big boost. He's been compared to Elvis Costello, but I think Huey has a far much more bitter, cynical sense of humor.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:53 AM on August 3, 2005
I'm alot more creeped out about the Germans worshipping David Hasselhof.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to mention The Tard Blog, it hasn't been updated in a while but the archives are there and they are truly side-splittingly funny.
posted by fenriq at 9:59 AM on August 3, 2005
I suppose this is as good a time as any to mention The Tard Blog, it hasn't been updated in a while but the archives are there and they are truly side-splittingly funny.
posted by fenriq at 9:59 AM on August 3, 2005
Thank you, Mr. Bateman.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:01 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:01 AM on August 3, 2005
Everyone hide... the "retarded" police are on the way.
posted by Necker at 10:01 AM on August 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by Necker at 10:01 AM on August 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Is The Jesse Helms being sarcastic? And did he say "far much more bitter"?
That article is pretty lame.
posted by ghastlyfop at 10:08 AM on August 3, 2005
That article is pretty lame.
posted by ghastlyfop at 10:08 AM on August 3, 2005
I thought that was pretty decent. Filler, certainly, but pretty decent.
Nothin' wrong with Workin' For a Livin' either, dammit.
posted by klangklangston at 10:11 AM on August 3, 2005
Nothin' wrong with Workin' For a Livin' either, dammit.
posted by klangklangston at 10:11 AM on August 3, 2005
I'm just impressed they can figure out how to work a CD player.
posted by dios at 10:12 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by dios at 10:12 AM on August 3, 2005
This post's in jeopardy, baby.
It just occurred to me that Huey Lewis didn't sing this song. If anyone needs me, I'll be over here in the corner eating wet cigarette butts.
posted by ColdChef at 10:14 AM on August 3, 2005
It just occurred to me that Huey Lewis didn't sing this song. If anyone needs me, I'll be over here in the corner eating wet cigarette butts.
posted by ColdChef at 10:14 AM on August 3, 2005
Of course, I'd have KNOWN that if I was more retarded.
posted by ColdChef at 10:15 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by ColdChef at 10:15 AM on August 3, 2005
This post's in jeopardy, baby.
That was Greg Kihn, who did the immortal "The Break-Up Song" as well.
As for the article, good for Huey and good for his fans. Whatever gets you through the night. If I'm not mistaken, as Clover they backed up Elvis Costello on an album or two. And I was at a John Lee Hooker tribute show in the early 90's where he sat in and played some harmonica. Once Charlie Musselwhite came on, he was dwarfed, but he was listenable enough.
posted by jonmc at 10:20 AM on August 3, 2005
That was Greg Kihn, who did the immortal "The Break-Up Song" as well.
As for the article, good for Huey and good for his fans. Whatever gets you through the night. If I'm not mistaken, as Clover they backed up Elvis Costello on an album or two. And I was at a John Lee Hooker tribute show in the early 90's where he sat in and played some harmonica. Once Charlie Musselwhite came on, he was dwarfed, but he was listenable enough.
posted by jonmc at 10:20 AM on August 3, 2005
Wow the American Psycho reference came quicker than I could get in here.
Retarded people seem to also like anything 80s. I noticed Ghostbusters, Back to the Future (as referenced in the article), anything Batman or super-hero oriented. There's probably some kind of underlying Freudian thing going on here that someone else should figure out.
posted by geoff. at 10:21 AM on August 3, 2005
Retarded people seem to also like anything 80s. I noticed Ghostbusters, Back to the Future (as referenced in the article), anything Batman or super-hero oriented. There's probably some kind of underlying Freudian thing going on here that someone else should figure out.
posted by geoff. at 10:21 AM on August 3, 2005
My two retarded children appreciate a wide variety of music, but neither one is a big Huey Lewis fan. My oldest son enjoys jazz, and my youngest is a big Elvis Costello fan.
The article was sweet, but this post? Not so much.
posted by tizzie at 10:21 AM on August 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
The article was sweet, but this post? Not so much.
posted by tizzie at 10:21 AM on August 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
I thought it was a sweet story.
I did too, tr33hugger. And from what I recall from their Behind the Music, the band has a pretty good history of being socially conscious, especially in the early days of AIDS. So I'm not going to harsh on Huey.
posted by jrossi4r at 10:22 AM on August 3, 2005
I did too, tr33hugger. And from what I recall from their Behind the Music, the band has a pretty good history of being socially conscious, especially in the early days of AIDS. So I'm not going to harsh on Huey.
posted by jrossi4r at 10:22 AM on August 3, 2005
From the article:
In each person, something that works in most people's brains is hindered, i.e., is "retarded." If gays can take back "faggot," and blacks can take back "nigger," then surely developmentally disabled folks can take back "retarded." And since they can't do it for themselves, I'm going to do it for them.
I have been working in this field for six years now (not too long but long enough), and I call bullshit on this. The whole "I am going to do it for them" thing is bullshit. Some of the self aware clients I work for HATE being labled - mentally disabled, retarded whatever. Even though the world sees them differently, most of these people just want to be as normal as possible. The others that aren't self aware enough to know the difference rely on their support system to not do things like make political statements on political correctness on their behalf.
Retarded people never make fun of someone else, never point and laugh at anybody. In fact, my clients generally see the good in everyone.
This is a lie. Anyone working in a vocational centre with "retarded" people know that it is sometimes like working in a Jr. High. It can be as meanspirited, and petty as anywhere else. That doesn't mean that some handicapped people are really nice and "see the good in everyone", they too have their limits as to how much bullshit they will take, and often instinctively like or dislike people.
The Huey Lewis thing, however, is true. God damn it.
Dios wrote:
I'm just impressed they can figure out how to work a CD player. Thanks for not letting us down with your insight dios!
posted by Quartermass at 10:24 AM on August 3, 2005
In each person, something that works in most people's brains is hindered, i.e., is "retarded." If gays can take back "faggot," and blacks can take back "nigger," then surely developmentally disabled folks can take back "retarded." And since they can't do it for themselves, I'm going to do it for them.
I have been working in this field for six years now (not too long but long enough), and I call bullshit on this. The whole "I am going to do it for them" thing is bullshit. Some of the self aware clients I work for HATE being labled - mentally disabled, retarded whatever. Even though the world sees them differently, most of these people just want to be as normal as possible. The others that aren't self aware enough to know the difference rely on their support system to not do things like make political statements on political correctness on their behalf.
Retarded people never make fun of someone else, never point and laugh at anybody. In fact, my clients generally see the good in everyone.
This is a lie. Anyone working in a vocational centre with "retarded" people know that it is sometimes like working in a Jr. High. It can be as meanspirited, and petty as anywhere else. That doesn't mean that some handicapped people are really nice and "see the good in everyone", they too have their limits as to how much bullshit they will take, and often instinctively like or dislike people.
The Huey Lewis thing, however, is true. God damn it.
Dios wrote:
I'm just impressed they can figure out how to work a CD player. Thanks for not letting us down with your insight dios!
posted by Quartermass at 10:24 AM on August 3, 2005
I'm just impressed they can figure out how to work a CD player.
posted by dios at 10:12 AM PST on August 3
Classy as always.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:26 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by dios at 10:12 AM PST on August 3
Classy as always.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:26 AM on August 3, 2005
Yeah, that's Greg Kihn.
I, too, thought this article was nice. The Politically Correct may not be able to withstand the use of the word "retarded" - and I certainly wouldn't fire it out in unknown company - but the retarded themselves are entitled to it.
posted by dammitjim at 10:28 AM on August 3, 2005
I, too, thought this article was nice. The Politically Correct may not be able to withstand the use of the word "retarded" - and I certainly wouldn't fire it out in unknown company - but the retarded themselves are entitled to it.
posted by dammitjim at 10:28 AM on August 3, 2005
Yet one train wreck after another...
"retarded".... no matter what this jerk says.... the word is (should be) dead and gone....
I say we just drag up all the old, derogatory words and start using them again..... that'll make the world a better place... or not
posted by HuronBob at 10:28 AM on August 3, 2005
"retarded".... no matter what this jerk says.... the word is (should be) dead and gone....
I say we just drag up all the old, derogatory words and start using them again..... that'll make the world a better place... or not
posted by HuronBob at 10:28 AM on August 3, 2005
Pretty sweet story. I enjoyed Huey Lewis as an elementary school kid and it's nice to find a reason to respect him now.
posted by rks404 at 10:29 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by rks404 at 10:29 AM on August 3, 2005
I'm just impressed they can figure out how to work a CD player.
Oy. Unnecessary.
posted by jenleigh at 10:33 AM on August 3, 2005
Oy. Unnecessary.
posted by jenleigh at 10:33 AM on August 3, 2005
So I'm not going to harsh on Huey.
Exactly. They were basically a decent bar band that got lucky for awhile. Good for them.
I've had a number of retarded co-workers over the years, but the only one with any musical interest was this kid Vinnie who liked to breakdance. He wasn't good at it but nobody ever gave him any greif. In high school there was a Down's Syndrome kid who hung around our section of the cafeteria wearing a Kiss t-shirt. I never talked to him so I don't know whether it was his taste in music or he was just imitating the other kids.
About six months ago, I was waiting for a bus out in Astoria, when out of nowhere 10 or so mentally disabled people poured into the shelter. One of them, a perky young white guy in a Yankees hat was chirping about the basketball game he was going to watch with an older black gentleman (also disabled) who had a strange weary dignity about him. "I think I like Timberwolves," the young one said "Do you like the Timberwolves? Huh?" the whole while slowly moving his index finger toward his companions eye socket. When it got too close, the older guy would say "Nooo!" or "Doon't!" in an incredibly weary voice. I get the feeling they have that conversation a lot.
As to other observations, I realize that mentally handicapped people are as human as the rest of us, but something about them brings out the protective urge in some people. I find it difficult to be mean around them. Although, my aforementioned co-worker Vinnie used to work on a cookie machine in a supermarket bakery. I was in bread and rolls. On his own machine, Vinnie was a whiz. One day we were short personnel, and Vinnie came to work on my machine. He wasn't used to it so he was slow. The machine started to clog. "Vinnie, speed it up, willya?" and he spent the next hour with a sad look on his face and I felt like a monster. The next day however, it was all smiles and "Hey Jon!"'s from him. But I felt guilty for a while.
posted by jonmc at 10:37 AM on August 3, 2005
Exactly. They were basically a decent bar band that got lucky for awhile. Good for them.
I've had a number of retarded co-workers over the years, but the only one with any musical interest was this kid Vinnie who liked to breakdance. He wasn't good at it but nobody ever gave him any greif. In high school there was a Down's Syndrome kid who hung around our section of the cafeteria wearing a Kiss t-shirt. I never talked to him so I don't know whether it was his taste in music or he was just imitating the other kids.
About six months ago, I was waiting for a bus out in Astoria, when out of nowhere 10 or so mentally disabled people poured into the shelter. One of them, a perky young white guy in a Yankees hat was chirping about the basketball game he was going to watch with an older black gentleman (also disabled) who had a strange weary dignity about him. "I think I like Timberwolves," the young one said "Do you like the Timberwolves? Huh?" the whole while slowly moving his index finger toward his companions eye socket. When it got too close, the older guy would say "Nooo!" or "Doon't!" in an incredibly weary voice. I get the feeling they have that conversation a lot.
As to other observations, I realize that mentally handicapped people are as human as the rest of us, but something about them brings out the protective urge in some people. I find it difficult to be mean around them. Although, my aforementioned co-worker Vinnie used to work on a cookie machine in a supermarket bakery. I was in bread and rolls. On his own machine, Vinnie was a whiz. One day we were short personnel, and Vinnie came to work on my machine. He wasn't used to it so he was slow. The machine started to clog. "Vinnie, speed it up, willya?" and he spent the next hour with a sad look on his face and I felt like a monster. The next day however, it was all smiles and "Hey Jon!"'s from him. But I felt guilty for a while.
posted by jonmc at 10:37 AM on August 3, 2005
He's [Huey] been compared to Elvis Costello
You know that "the News" used to be "Clover" which was Elvis Costello's back up band at the beginning, right?
Oh and Huey having a more cynical sense of humor than Elvis? maybe I don't know that much about Huey, but that would have to be pretty fucking cynical.
posted by piratebowling at 10:42 AM on August 3, 2005
You know that "the News" used to be "Clover" which was Elvis Costello's back up band at the beginning, right?
Oh and Huey having a more cynical sense of humor than Elvis? maybe I don't know that much about Huey, but that would have to be pretty fucking cynical.
posted by piratebowling at 10:42 AM on August 3, 2005
"retarded".... no matter what this jerk says.... the word is (should be) dead and gone....
Why? Why is "retarded" any worse than "developmentally disabled" or the even more PC-warm-fuzzy "differently abled"? I'm as pinko as they come, but have never understood this obsession with replacing words that deal with things that make us uncomfortable with totally synonymous terms that simply have more syllables. Anyway, this word isn't even a true slur. But even if it were, the power of slurs is dependent entirely on our willingness to be offended by them. Sticks and stones, baby. Sticks and stones...
posted by MaxVonCretin at 10:49 AM on August 3, 2005
Why? Why is "retarded" any worse than "developmentally disabled" or the even more PC-warm-fuzzy "differently abled"? I'm as pinko as they come, but have never understood this obsession with replacing words that deal with things that make us uncomfortable with totally synonymous terms that simply have more syllables. Anyway, this word isn't even a true slur. But even if it were, the power of slurs is dependent entirely on our willingness to be offended by them. Sticks and stones, baby. Sticks and stones...
posted by MaxVonCretin at 10:49 AM on August 3, 2005
Some of the self aware clients I work for HATE being labled - mentally disabled, retarded whatever. Even though the world sees them differently, most of these people just want to be as normal as possible.
Egads. I'd like to be as helpful as possible, in terms of not using terms that offend, but let's pretend that the category doesn't exist? We certainly can't manage that for race and sex. I appreciate your work experience, Quartermass, and your comments ring true, but we're on a rotating treadmill of terms for all groups and there's no way off this crazy thing.
Consider that "retarded" (if we mentally remove stigma from our own minds) is actually a gentle, indirect term, when you think about the meaning. Over time, of course, it receives the full force of stigma. The same thing has happened to senior citizen. Senior citizen!! (Could a more gentle term for "old person" be devised?) Now some may say that in a perfect world, we wouldn't see differences, but that's BS. We are built to notice differences. In a perfect world, we'd see differences and they'd be only that -- differences. And the terms wouldn't matter because they wouldn't be pejorative. Of course, someone wouldn't like a term because it denoted what it did and not more -- like an inability to do something, and then... help! Jane! Get me off this crazy thing!
posted by dreamsign at 10:49 AM on August 3, 2005
Egads. I'd like to be as helpful as possible, in terms of not using terms that offend, but let's pretend that the category doesn't exist? We certainly can't manage that for race and sex. I appreciate your work experience, Quartermass, and your comments ring true, but we're on a rotating treadmill of terms for all groups and there's no way off this crazy thing.
Consider that "retarded" (if we mentally remove stigma from our own minds) is actually a gentle, indirect term, when you think about the meaning. Over time, of course, it receives the full force of stigma. The same thing has happened to senior citizen. Senior citizen!! (Could a more gentle term for "old person" be devised?) Now some may say that in a perfect world, we wouldn't see differences, but that's BS. We are built to notice differences. In a perfect world, we'd see differences and they'd be only that -- differences. And the terms wouldn't matter because they wouldn't be pejorative. Of course, someone wouldn't like a term because it denoted what it did and not more -- like an inability to do something, and then... help! Jane! Get me off this crazy thing!
posted by dreamsign at 10:49 AM on August 3, 2005
we're on a rotating treadmill of terms for all groups and there's no way off this crazy thing.
Sure there is. The labels we assign people color the way we look at them. Taking away the easy words to label them forces you to see them individualy instead of part of a loosly defined group (what then, exactly is a "retard" anyway? The three men I work with all the time have three completely unique disabilities). So instead of seeing "retard," you see a human. Or so goes the line of thinking.
posted by Quartermass at 10:56 AM on August 3, 2005
Sure there is. The labels we assign people color the way we look at them. Taking away the easy words to label them forces you to see them individualy instead of part of a loosly defined group (what then, exactly is a "retard" anyway? The three men I work with all the time have three completely unique disabilities). So instead of seeing "retard," you see a human. Or so goes the line of thinking.
posted by Quartermass at 10:56 AM on August 3, 2005
Dreamsign is on the right track. I feel much less offended when I hear the word "retarded" used correctly in context, than I am when I hear typical people use it to describe themselves when they screw up.
posted by tizzie at 10:59 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by tizzie at 10:59 AM on August 3, 2005
I noticed Ghostbusters, Back to the Future (as referenced in the article), anything Batman or super-hero oriented
Hey, now. Ghostbusters and Back to the Future were great movies. Original, well-executed and still big studio productions. These days it's all poorly rehashed crapola--I'd kill to see the kind of originality that came out of the 80s from the big studios these days.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:04 AM on August 3, 2005
Hey, now. Ghostbusters and Back to the Future were great movies. Original, well-executed and still big studio productions. These days it's all poorly rehashed crapola--I'd kill to see the kind of originality that came out of the 80s from the big studios these days.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:04 AM on August 3, 2005
tizzie nails it. As a parent of a retarded child, I have no problem describing my child -- or any actually retarded child -- in that way. However, when a "normal" person calls another "normal" person a "retard," or says that they did something "retarded," the word is being used as a pejorative. Using it in this way -- as an insult -- implies contempt for actual retarded people.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:05 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by pardonyou? at 11:05 AM on August 3, 2005
The labels we assign people color the way we look at them.
Paging John Berger!
posted by MaxVonCretin at 11:06 AM on August 3, 2005
Paging John Berger!
posted by MaxVonCretin at 11:06 AM on August 3, 2005
pardonyou...
I think you capped this discussion...well put... you said it better than I did...
posted by HuronBob at 11:10 AM on August 3, 2005
I think you capped this discussion...well put... you said it better than I did...
posted by HuronBob at 11:10 AM on August 3, 2005
(I should also say I have no problem with describing my child -- or anyone else describing my child -- as retarded when the word is genuinely being used to describe her situation. However, I would have a problem if someone yelled at my kid, "Hey, look at the retard"! The difference is fairly obvious to me).
(on preview: Thanks, HB).
posted by pardonyou? at 11:12 AM on August 3, 2005
(on preview: Thanks, HB).
posted by pardonyou? at 11:12 AM on August 3, 2005
I found a stray hamster in my neighborhood (college town, move-out season). My girlfriend and I took him in and named him Chuey Lewis (and the News, but we never found his band mates). Sadly he died around two years later.
posted by p3t3 at 11:14 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by p3t3 at 11:14 AM on August 3, 2005
Is this news? I mean, what don't retarded people love?
posted by notmydesk at 11:17 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by notmydesk at 11:17 AM on August 3, 2005
They were more than "a decent bar band that got lucky for awhile" -- most bar bands are just juke boxes with hair, but Huey Lewis and the News was writing songs that people loved. They do simple, catchy, sincere, clean, uncynical stuff. I'm not surprised that the band appeals to a lot of retarded (if that's the term I am supposed to use here) people.
But I wouldn't be surprised if it's more that the band is considered good and "safe" by a lot of people who work with retarded people. I have the feeling retarded people respond as much as anyone else to catchy tunes, whether they're recorded by Huey Lewis or (checking the current Billboard chart) Gwen Stefani or The Pussycat Dolls or whoever.
posted by pracowity at 11:18 AM on August 3, 2005
But I wouldn't be surprised if it's more that the band is considered good and "safe" by a lot of people who work with retarded people. I have the feeling retarded people respond as much as anyone else to catchy tunes, whether they're recorded by Huey Lewis or (checking the current Billboard chart) Gwen Stefani or The Pussycat Dolls or whoever.
posted by pracowity at 11:18 AM on August 3, 2005
This MiFi reeks of meanspirtedness. R*t****d is an ugly word and I am wary of those who use it.
posted by shockingbluamp at 11:19 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by shockingbluamp at 11:19 AM on August 3, 2005
...I was at a John Lee Hooker tribute show in the early 90's where he sat in and played some harmonica...
Was that at Madison Square Garden, jonmc? If so, I was there, too. As I recall, there was a large chorus of boos from the blues snobs in the crowd when Huey first came out, but I thought he did a passable job. Huey actually has some blues background...I think he did "Bad Is Bad" on a B-Side of one of his pop hits.
posted by rocket88 at 11:19 AM on August 3, 2005
Was that at Madison Square Garden, jonmc? If so, I was there, too. As I recall, there was a large chorus of boos from the blues snobs in the crowd when Huey first came out, but I thought he did a passable job. Huey actually has some blues background...I think he did "Bad Is Bad" on a B-Side of one of his pop hits.
posted by rocket88 at 11:19 AM on August 3, 2005
First: Fantastic story. I mean as a piece of writing. Just enough genuinely touching moments without ever getting precious or sancitimonious, and made me laugh out loud like three times without ever implying that retarded people or Huey Lewis were laughable. That's no easy literary feat. Thanks, keswick.
Second: nice to see dios has jumped to an early, commanding lead in the race to make the easiest and most glib joke at the expense of the disabled. (Actually, he's so far the only competitor.) And not even a very good joke at that, which would've actually redeemed it to some small extent in my estimation. Confirms a lot of what I've long suspected about dios.
posted by gompa at 11:20 AM on August 3, 2005
Second: nice to see dios has jumped to an early, commanding lead in the race to make the easiest and most glib joke at the expense of the disabled. (Actually, he's so far the only competitor.) And not even a very good joke at that, which would've actually redeemed it to some small extent in my estimation. Confirms a lot of what I've long suspected about dios.
posted by gompa at 11:20 AM on August 3, 2005
One time I got a big lecture from a roommate from using the word "handicapped" rather than "disabled". You know, sometimes the replacement of words makes perfect sense to me (i.e., because the old term is intrinsically demeaning or has just acquired an irreversibly negative connotation), but not in that particular case.
I never have minded Huey Lewis, found his music fun (and his videos were among the funniest and most enjoyable of any produced in the eighties) , and now I get to respect the guy too. This is good.
posted by orange swan at 11:21 AM on August 3, 2005
I never have minded Huey Lewis, found his music fun (and his videos were among the funniest and most enjoyable of any produced in the eighties) , and now I get to respect the guy too. This is good.
posted by orange swan at 11:21 AM on August 3, 2005
Was that at Madison Square Garden, jonmc?
that would be the one. and I remember the boos, too. But he did all right, considering that he was surrounded by the giants of the field.
posted by jonmc at 11:23 AM on August 3, 2005
that would be the one. and I remember the boos, too. But he did all right, considering that he was surrounded by the giants of the field.
posted by jonmc at 11:23 AM on August 3, 2005
Anecdote about retarded co-workers: I worked at Ann Arbor's Top of the Park summer festival, where they project movies onto the side of the parking structure. The primary appeal, as a high schooler and as a recent graduate, was that you could drink underaged. The appeal certainly wasn't the wages— $4.00 an hour, because you were "seasonal," with a 25¢ raise every year.
There was a retarded guy named Andrew who worked there, and who was, by far, the best damn worker at the place. He was pretty high functioning, able to live on his own (he was about 35) and manage most things for himself pretty well. But he always took the shit jobs, and called everybody "Buddeeee" with a mushmouthed speech impediment. (When I stop by the festival, I still go out of my way to say hi to him. He's a great guy.) While Andrew liked the idea of drinking, he'd become even more incoherent and even mean when he got beer into him, so instead, we'd just feed him NAs all night. He got to feel like he was drinking with the rest of us, and he was still able to do his work. He didn't know they weren't real beers, and no one saw the advantage in telling him.
Since I lived the closest to him, when I had a car, I drove him home (often, I'd ride my bike and he'd walk).
One night, I was drunk and underaged, driving him home, and got pulled over. I'm feeding the cop some line about "just being tired, officer, and I'm taking my coworker home," when he starts asking the cop to guess how many beers he'd had. Again, he'd been drinking NAs that night, but he'd had about five of them. He's giving the cop all this "I've had [shows hand] this many!" and I thought I was going to have to take a breathylizer.
Luckily, the cop believed that I was the designated driver, and told me to make sure that Andrew got plenty of sleep. Apparently, there's nothing that makes you seem more sober in comparison than a loud retarded guy trying to goad a cop with tales of drinking.
posted by klangklangston at 11:28 AM on August 3, 2005
There was a retarded guy named Andrew who worked there, and who was, by far, the best damn worker at the place. He was pretty high functioning, able to live on his own (he was about 35) and manage most things for himself pretty well. But he always took the shit jobs, and called everybody "Buddeeee" with a mushmouthed speech impediment. (When I stop by the festival, I still go out of my way to say hi to him. He's a great guy.) While Andrew liked the idea of drinking, he'd become even more incoherent and even mean when he got beer into him, so instead, we'd just feed him NAs all night. He got to feel like he was drinking with the rest of us, and he was still able to do his work. He didn't know they weren't real beers, and no one saw the advantage in telling him.
Since I lived the closest to him, when I had a car, I drove him home (often, I'd ride my bike and he'd walk).
One night, I was drunk and underaged, driving him home, and got pulled over. I'm feeding the cop some line about "just being tired, officer, and I'm taking my coworker home," when he starts asking the cop to guess how many beers he'd had. Again, he'd been drinking NAs that night, but he'd had about five of them. He's giving the cop all this "I've had [shows hand] this many!" and I thought I was going to have to take a breathylizer.
Luckily, the cop believed that I was the designated driver, and told me to make sure that Andrew got plenty of sleep. Apparently, there's nothing that makes you seem more sober in comparison than a loud retarded guy trying to goad a cop with tales of drinking.
posted by klangklangston at 11:28 AM on August 3, 2005
Oh, and shockingbluamp?
This MiFi reeks of meanspirtedness. R*t****d is an ugly word and I am wary of those who use it.
Unless you offer something more concrete to justify your "wariness," I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the woman who works full time with retarded people and counts several of them among her closest friends when she argues that the term can be used non-pejoratively.
Which actually brings me to a slightly tangential question: Is that Black Eyed Peas tune a pejorative usage? 'Cause I've always taken it to be a kind of homage of sorts - you know, let's get retarded, let's just have fun and not think about it too much - but maybe I'm not in a position to accurately judge. Anyone?
posted by gompa at 11:28 AM on August 3, 2005
This MiFi reeks of meanspirtedness. R*t****d is an ugly word and I am wary of those who use it.
Unless you offer something more concrete to justify your "wariness," I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the woman who works full time with retarded people and counts several of them among her closest friends when she argues that the term can be used non-pejoratively.
Which actually brings me to a slightly tangential question: Is that Black Eyed Peas tune a pejorative usage? 'Cause I've always taken it to be a kind of homage of sorts - you know, let's get retarded, let's just have fun and not think about it too much - but maybe I'm not in a position to accurately judge. Anyone?
posted by gompa at 11:28 AM on August 3, 2005
According to Wilford Brimley:
"First of all, the retarded don't rule the night. They don't rule it; no one does. They don't run in packs and, while they don't have the strength of apes, don't look 'em in the eye. Don't do it. It puts them on edge. They might go into berserker mode, come at you like a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows. You might be screaming, 'No! No! No!' but all they hear is 'Who wants cake?' Because they all do. They all want cake."
posted by Gamblor at 11:36 AM on August 3, 2005
"First of all, the retarded don't rule the night. They don't rule it; no one does. They don't run in packs and, while they don't have the strength of apes, don't look 'em in the eye. Don't do it. It puts them on edge. They might go into berserker mode, come at you like a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows. You might be screaming, 'No! No! No!' but all they hear is 'Who wants cake?' Because they all do. They all want cake."
posted by Gamblor at 11:36 AM on August 3, 2005
Hey gompa, I'm pretty sure shockingbluamp was making a joke.
posted by Specklet at 11:39 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by Specklet at 11:39 AM on August 3, 2005
They did a great a capella rendition of the national anthem at an A's or Giants game. It's on their Video Hits collection.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:44 AM on August 3, 2005
posted by kirkaracha at 11:44 AM on August 3, 2005
My experience with working with Mentally Retarded adults has been apparently the opposite of Quartermass's experience. I never saw any behavior that could be described as "Jr. High" (other than some romantic encounters) and I never knew any clients that gave a damn about labels. I never saw client of mine be intentionally cruel to one another. Perhaps it is a result of the varying functional level between my clients and Quartermass's, I don't know, but my experience sounds quite different.
As for the term retarded; it has a specific definition. Perhaps the individuals Quartermass worked with were developmentally disabled and not exclusively mentally retarded as my clients were?
None of my clients showed a particular interest in Huey Lewis. Wrestling, yes, Huey Lewis, no.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:46 AM on August 3, 2005
As for the term retarded; it has a specific definition. Perhaps the individuals Quartermass worked with were developmentally disabled and not exclusively mentally retarded as my clients were?
None of my clients showed a particular interest in Huey Lewis. Wrestling, yes, Huey Lewis, no.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:46 AM on August 3, 2005
If I'm not mistaken, as Clover they backed up Elvis Costello on an album or two.
According to their bio, "the band, minus Lewis, supported Elvis Costello on his debut album." Also, "Lewis played harmonica on Lowe's Labour of Lust and Dave Edmunds' Repeat When Necessary."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:49 AM on August 3, 2005
I'll be seeing my retarded cousin (downs, he's about 35 now) at a funeral this weekend. I'll ask him about Huey Lewis. I know that he hates Paul Harvey with an irrational passion (but as I like to think that I hate Paul Harvey with a rational passion, it's not anything I can begrudge him).
I also know that the group home that he lived in for a while had rampant theft, sexual weirdness and at least one knife fight between the residents. So not all retards are sugar and spice. And since they tend to be really, really disproportionately strong, the mean ones are worth steering clear of. (Luckily, despite my cousin's love of the Three Stooges, he's gentle and has a pretty good sense of humor).
posted by klangklangston at 11:50 AM on August 3, 2005
I also know that the group home that he lived in for a while had rampant theft, sexual weirdness and at least one knife fight between the residents. So not all retards are sugar and spice. And since they tend to be really, really disproportionately strong, the mean ones are worth steering clear of. (Luckily, despite my cousin's love of the Three Stooges, he's gentle and has a pretty good sense of humor).
posted by klangklangston at 11:50 AM on August 3, 2005
If gays can take back "faggot," and blacks can take back "nigger," then surely developmentally disabled folks can take back "retarded." And since they can't do it for themselves, I'm going to do it for them.
It's probably a coincidence, but that's almost a direct rip-off of a Bonnie McFarlane joke about her retarded sister:
"As for that word...Retard. I tried to get my sister to start calling her friends retard, you know, to take the word back. Own the power. They could be like, 'Yo, Tardo!' 'Hey, Retard, what up?' to one another. But if a non-retarded person said it, they'd get pissed, 'No, thas our word!'"
posted by Gamblor at 11:51 AM on August 3, 2005
It's probably a coincidence, but that's almost a direct rip-off of a Bonnie McFarlane joke about her retarded sister:
"As for that word...Retard. I tried to get my sister to start calling her friends retard, you know, to take the word back. Own the power. They could be like, 'Yo, Tardo!' 'Hey, Retard, what up?' to one another. But if a non-retarded person said it, they'd get pissed, 'No, thas our word!'"
posted by Gamblor at 11:51 AM on August 3, 2005
Some of these folksy anecdotes are pretty offensive, too - albeit unintentionally.
It's just not a good idea to generalize about entire groups of people based on one common trait - sex, race, disability, age, religion, geographic location.
I see this type of discussion come up on Metafilter often - everybody from the South is this way, all Catholics are that way, etc. etc., and it surprises me. Aren't we, as a community of intelligent people, above that kind of stereotyping?
posted by tizzie at 12:08 PM on August 3, 2005
It's just not a good idea to generalize about entire groups of people based on one common trait - sex, race, disability, age, religion, geographic location.
I see this type of discussion come up on Metafilter often - everybody from the South is this way, all Catholics are that way, etc. etc., and it surprises me. Aren't we, as a community of intelligent people, above that kind of stereotyping?
posted by tizzie at 12:08 PM on August 3, 2005
I mean, what don't retarded people love?
Rubiks Cubes?
Oh man... I'm sorry. I mean, it was just wide open and I couldn't resist. I guess I've got some mean-spiritness left in me...
posted by Jon-o at 12:14 PM on August 3, 2005
Rubiks Cubes?
Oh man... I'm sorry. I mean, it was just wide open and I couldn't resist. I guess I've got some mean-spiritness left in me...
posted by Jon-o at 12:14 PM on August 3, 2005
What are you saying? Al Catholics ARE mackrel-snapping Papists. That's why we had to kill our Catholic president— so he wouldn't sell us out to the Vatican.
posted by klangklangston at 12:14 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by klangklangston at 12:14 PM on August 3, 2005
Pollomacho,
as I said, I work with people on varying levels of disability. Some mostly mental (brain injuries, Down syndrome), some mostly physical, and some a good combination of the two.
I work with some who were self-aware (they even have self advocacy training) enough, and though they don't always understand the labels, they know enough to be impacted when some asshole high school student walks by and yells "hey retards!" (which has happened recently).
Just this last weekend, we were going to an event where workers get in free with their paying clients, and the person at the till didn't know that. I mistakenly said (even though I know better) "I am with these disabled men, and I am supposed to get in free with them", and right away one of the men shot me down saying "where? There are disabled men around? I don't see any," which only confused the person even more. After we got into the event, I was given a scolding : "Remember Paul. I am not disabled, I am just a normal guy."
The guy is not "normal," but I don't begrudge him this right not to accept labels other people put on him. I mean, of course there are those who I have worked with that couldn't care less, which the point I made above was that it still isn't my right to "re-claim" language for him.
I guess I am lucky to be working for a progressive agency that is working hard to change things like labels and stereotypes, not from public awareness campaigns (so that the rest of society worries about using the word "retard"), but from self advocacy training to give these people courage to stand up and say "I don't accept this" if they don't like what they are hearing.
posted by Quartermass at 12:14 PM on August 3, 2005
as I said, I work with people on varying levels of disability. Some mostly mental (brain injuries, Down syndrome), some mostly physical, and some a good combination of the two.
I work with some who were self-aware (they even have self advocacy training) enough, and though they don't always understand the labels, they know enough to be impacted when some asshole high school student walks by and yells "hey retards!" (which has happened recently).
Just this last weekend, we were going to an event where workers get in free with their paying clients, and the person at the till didn't know that. I mistakenly said (even though I know better) "I am with these disabled men, and I am supposed to get in free with them", and right away one of the men shot me down saying "where? There are disabled men around? I don't see any," which only confused the person even more. After we got into the event, I was given a scolding : "Remember Paul. I am not disabled, I am just a normal guy."
The guy is not "normal," but I don't begrudge him this right not to accept labels other people put on him. I mean, of course there are those who I have worked with that couldn't care less, which the point I made above was that it still isn't my right to "re-claim" language for him.
I guess I am lucky to be working for a progressive agency that is working hard to change things like labels and stereotypes, not from public awareness campaigns (so that the rest of society worries about using the word "retard"), but from self advocacy training to give these people courage to stand up and say "I don't accept this" if they don't like what they are hearing.
posted by Quartermass at 12:14 PM on August 3, 2005
Some of these folksy anecdotes are pretty offensive, too - albeit unintentionally.
I'm sorry if my story offended you, but I was honestly using them to make a point about people and how they relate to disabled people. (ie, the work anecdote) and how, just like non-retarded people they have their own personality quirks, (the finger-in-the-eye) story. I can assure that I'd personally shred anyone I thought was purposefully giving greif to a retarded person.
posted by jonmc at 12:17 PM on August 3, 2005
I'm sorry if my story offended you, but I was honestly using them to make a point about people and how they relate to disabled people. (ie, the work anecdote) and how, just like non-retarded people they have their own personality quirks, (the finger-in-the-eye) story. I can assure that I'd personally shred anyone I thought was purposefully giving greif to a retarded person.
posted by jonmc at 12:17 PM on August 3, 2005
tizzie--I don't know, it seems hard to draw the line between a commonality within a group that people with experience have noticed (as apparently, the author of the Huey Lewis piece did) and a stereotype. How would you distinguish? Is it intent to harm that matters? Positivity of observation (e.g., retarded people are very strong physically, as opposed to weak)? Agreement (or disagreement) with the observation by a member of the group in question (or members--and then, how many)? Is it just the fact that "stereotype" has become about as loaded a word as "retarded?" Has classification and grouping in and of itself become suspect?
That said, my husband has worked with the retarded (and refers to them as such regularly; I think he said at some point that he'd stop once our state's Department of Mental Retardation changed its name) for about ten years. I'll have to ask him if he's ever noticed the Huey Lewis thing.
posted by dlugoczaj at 12:30 PM on August 3, 2005
That said, my husband has worked with the retarded (and refers to them as such regularly; I think he said at some point that he'd stop once our state's Department of Mental Retardation changed its name) for about ten years. I'll have to ask him if he's ever noticed the Huey Lewis thing.
posted by dlugoczaj at 12:30 PM on August 3, 2005
I dont' believe jonmc intended to present anything offensive. My opinion for what little it's worth.
posted by nofundy at 12:54 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by nofundy at 12:54 PM on August 3, 2005
When Banjo and I were in the UK on honeymoon, we caught "The Strangest Village in Britain" on the BBC. It was about a village, Botton, where over a hundred special needs people live and work together. I dunno about 'retarded' and all, but those people were far more human than many of the folks I see every day.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:01 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:01 PM on August 3, 2005
dlugoczaj, you're correct - it is hard to draw that line. I think that's why it gets crossed with such regularity!
For example, I got a letter at work from someone who saw a work crew with a lot of Hispanic workers, and wanted to know why we would "hire illegal workers instead of Americans." And she made it a point to tell me that she's not prejudiced, because she's black.
Ummm, no - you are prejudiced if you assume that all Hispanics are illegal workers.
The author of the Huey Lewis article used a literary device to tell stories that humanize his clients for a feel-good story - and I think several of the writers in this thread have tried to do the same sort of thing. But instead, some came off sounding like the "I'm not prejudiced, but..." lady. Not all of them, so please don't get defensive.
Pardonyou and I have faced these discussions - here and in "real life," many times, and I know I'm not going to change the world. I'm still going to hear people say "He acted like a retard" when they are describing their drunken uncle dancing at their wedding reception. I don't want to be the "retarded police," trust me. I've got a good sense of humor. But my kids can't advocate for themselves all the time.... so if I can provoke some sensitivity on this, great. If not, we'll live.
posted by tizzie at 1:05 PM on August 3, 2005
For example, I got a letter at work from someone who saw a work crew with a lot of Hispanic workers, and wanted to know why we would "hire illegal workers instead of Americans." And she made it a point to tell me that she's not prejudiced, because she's black.
Ummm, no - you are prejudiced if you assume that all Hispanics are illegal workers.
The author of the Huey Lewis article used a literary device to tell stories that humanize his clients for a feel-good story - and I think several of the writers in this thread have tried to do the same sort of thing. But instead, some came off sounding like the "I'm not prejudiced, but..." lady. Not all of them, so please don't get defensive.
Pardonyou and I have faced these discussions - here and in "real life," many times, and I know I'm not going to change the world. I'm still going to hear people say "He acted like a retard" when they are describing their drunken uncle dancing at their wedding reception. I don't want to be the "retarded police," trust me. I've got a good sense of humor. But my kids can't advocate for themselves all the time.... so if I can provoke some sensitivity on this, great. If not, we'll live.
posted by tizzie at 1:05 PM on August 3, 2005
Oh, and both my kids are really good at working CD players.
posted by tizzie at 1:08 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by tizzie at 1:08 PM on August 3, 2005
The reason 'retarded people love Huey Lewis and the News' is that Huey Lewis and the News are the greatest American band of all time.
posted by nylon at 1:16 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by nylon at 1:16 PM on August 3, 2005
The folks I worked with were mentally retarded, that was a necessary qualification for entrance into the residential and work programs. Many had other disabilities or disorders such as OCD, Schizophrenia, CP, diabetes, etc., however they all were mentally retarded.
Now, I know that my select group of clients is not a cross section of all mentally retarded people, by far, however, I never saw intentional harm inflicted by a member of my population group against another with the purpose of cruelty. Sure, there were the schizophrenic freak outs, the hair pulling, the grabbing for candy, so forth, but usually saying something like, "Billy, you are hurting Suzy" was enough to bring forth a wave of guilt and apologies.
The people I worked with were mentally retarded, that is to say their mental development was slowed so that, though physically adult, they had the reasoning abilities of very young children. Acting like a Jr. High student would have been above their cognitive function level.
The folks I worked with were mentally retarded, that was the clinical term for it. They were not handicapped. They were not developmentally disabled. They were mentally retarded. I have never understood why people were afraid of that term. Why are we afraid to call things what they are. Mentally retarded doesn't mean stupid and it sure as hell doesn't mean unwise, it means that there is something wrong with your brain functions. It's like being afraid of saying people with diabetes are diabetics.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:22 PM on August 3, 2005
Now, I know that my select group of clients is not a cross section of all mentally retarded people, by far, however, I never saw intentional harm inflicted by a member of my population group against another with the purpose of cruelty. Sure, there were the schizophrenic freak outs, the hair pulling, the grabbing for candy, so forth, but usually saying something like, "Billy, you are hurting Suzy" was enough to bring forth a wave of guilt and apologies.
The people I worked with were mentally retarded, that is to say their mental development was slowed so that, though physically adult, they had the reasoning abilities of very young children. Acting like a Jr. High student would have been above their cognitive function level.
The folks I worked with were mentally retarded, that was the clinical term for it. They were not handicapped. They were not developmentally disabled. They were mentally retarded. I have never understood why people were afraid of that term. Why are we afraid to call things what they are. Mentally retarded doesn't mean stupid and it sure as hell doesn't mean unwise, it means that there is something wrong with your brain functions. It's like being afraid of saying people with diabetes are diabetics.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:22 PM on August 3, 2005
Well, it's that the word "retarded" has come to have multiple meanings, one of which is pejorative. It becomes difficult to disambiguate the clinical, non pejorative usage from casual, pejorative usage.
posted by Freen at 2:33 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by Freen at 2:33 PM on August 3, 2005
"They, too, put their pants on one leg at a time. It's just that sometimes they put theirs on backward."
OMG, I'm retarded!
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:26 PM on August 3, 2005
OMG, I'm retarded!
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:26 PM on August 3, 2005
This whole thread is totally gay.
posted by The Bellman at 4:16 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by The Bellman at 4:16 PM on August 3, 2005
You guys are acting like a bunch of diabetics.
posted by klangklangston at 6:13 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by klangklangston at 6:13 PM on August 3, 2005
my former boyfriend has a sister with Down's. years ago when we first slept together at his father's house, his sister snuck into the bedroom early in the morning, quietly. mostly out of curiosity, she wanted to know who was in bed with her brother (we had never met before). once her curiosity was satified she left the room. my partner and i got up and went down stairs to the kitchen for coffee. sure enough, his sister with Down's was making us scrambled eggs. this is a story i will never forget.
posted by brandz at 7:34 PM on August 3, 2005
posted by brandz at 7:34 PM on August 3, 2005
My younger brother is mentally retarded and the word "retarded" is not intended to be a pejorative. "Retard" is a verb meaning to "slow down." On the other hand, I am usually bothered by the use of "tard" and "retard" as a noun, because they're almost never used in a nonpejorative way.
By the way, my brother mostly likes 80s compilations, but for some strange reason, his favorite group is the 70s soft rock group Bread. Some of this may have to do with musical taste, but it's also due to the fact that these are the kind of CDs you can get cheap at Wal-Mart, gas stations etc.
posted by jonp72 at 10:38 PM on August 3, 2005
By the way, my brother mostly likes 80s compilations, but for some strange reason, his favorite group is the 70s soft rock group Bread. Some of this may have to do with musical taste, but it's also due to the fact that these are the kind of CDs you can get cheap at Wal-Mart, gas stations etc.
posted by jonp72 at 10:38 PM on August 3, 2005
The labels we assign people color the way we look at them.
That's the easy explanation. The truth is a little more complicated. These terms start out value-neutral, but because people use them pejoratively, they assume negative value. "Idiot" and "moron" were once just (poor) value ranges on an intelligence test. "Psychotic", "paranoid", the list goes on and on, and we keep replacing each term with something new. The new term acquires negative value, and onward we go.
As for noun use, jonp72, it's always like that.
He's Jewish. He's a Jew.
He's gay. He's a gay.
He's paranoid. He's a paranoid.
He's psychotic. He's a psychotic (now "sociopath").
Identifying the person as the quality always leads to problems and hurt feelings. That doesn't mean we should pretend, even if we could, that everyone is exactly the same.
posted by dreamsign at 2:39 AM on August 4, 2005
That's the easy explanation. The truth is a little more complicated. These terms start out value-neutral, but because people use them pejoratively, they assume negative value. "Idiot" and "moron" were once just (poor) value ranges on an intelligence test. "Psychotic", "paranoid", the list goes on and on, and we keep replacing each term with something new. The new term acquires negative value, and onward we go.
As for noun use, jonp72, it's always like that.
He's Jewish. He's a Jew.
He's gay. He's a gay.
He's paranoid. He's a paranoid.
He's psychotic. He's a psychotic (now "sociopath").
Identifying the person as the quality always leads to problems and hurt feelings. That doesn't mean we should pretend, even if we could, that everyone is exactly the same.
posted by dreamsign at 2:39 AM on August 4, 2005
If someone intends a term to be meant pejoratively, it comes across. If they don't, it comes across. I'm sure folks would argue the point, but as far as practical experience is concerned I don't think it's that hard to discern when a person has a negative intention or if they're being insensitive, or merely using a word. And I suppose some people just can't stand to hear a word uttered (R*t****d? Best laugh of the day already) but for pity's sake, if we're wandering around getting all cheesed off about the fact someone uttered a word. It's a story about retarded people. The author meant no ill by the use of the word (though the 'taking back' thing is foolishly crusaderish.) Does it matter more what someone believes or if they use the words we like to put it across to us?
posted by rebirtha at 6:53 AM on August 4, 2005
posted by rebirtha at 6:53 AM on August 4, 2005
Dreamsign: No, "idiot" was always pejorative. In Athens, it meant a citizen who wasn't engaged in politics. Honest. You can ask Languagehat. And to the best of my knowledge, Moron comes from the Greek Mora, which means "dull" or "stupid."
posted by klangklangston at 9:14 AM on August 4, 2005
posted by klangklangston at 9:14 AM on August 4, 2005
I'm just impressed they can figure out how to work a CD player.
Funny, my two year old daughter figured that out last week. She learned how to pop the eject mechanism, take out the CD, put it back, close the top and push play.
Oh, and she has Down syndrome.
posted by plinth at 1:20 PM on August 4, 2005
Funny, my two year old daughter figured that out last week. She learned how to pop the eject mechanism, take out the CD, put it back, close the top and push play.
Oh, and she has Down syndrome.
posted by plinth at 1:20 PM on August 4, 2005
I'm impressed. I read this thread kind of expecting a train wreck, but it isn't, although I'm disappointed everyone didn't simply ignore dios' troll.
Dreamsign: psychotic and sociopath are completely different. Psychopath and sociopath, however, are much closer. Also, do people ever say, "He's a gay"? - I've never seen/heard it used as a noun. Urning, however is a noun that is useful to refer simply to a homosexual man, in contradistinction to a homosexual woman, or "lesbian".
posted by birdsquared at 6:16 PM on August 4, 2005
Dreamsign: psychotic and sociopath are completely different. Psychopath and sociopath, however, are much closer. Also, do people ever say, "He's a gay"? - I've never seen/heard it used as a noun. Urning, however is a noun that is useful to refer simply to a homosexual man, in contradistinction to a homosexual woman, or "lesbian".
posted by birdsquared at 6:16 PM on August 4, 2005
Also, do people ever say, "He's a gay"? - I've never seen/heard it used as a noun.
Uh... have you ever been to Ohio? Because I can assure you most emphatically that people do use it as a noun.
posted by soyjoy at 8:15 PM on August 4, 2005
Uh... have you ever been to Ohio? Because I can assure you most emphatically that people do use it as a noun.
posted by soyjoy at 8:15 PM on August 4, 2005
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posted by BobFrapples at 9:53 AM on August 3, 2005