Zionist hegemony? - not yet.
October 14, 2005 8:03 PM Subscribe
Zionism and Judaism - let's define our terms. Aren’t Jews by definition Zionists? This is an impression which is, as I hope will become absolutely clear by the end of this talk, totally false ... Of course, anti-Zionist Jews of all political and religious orientations have long experienced the lash of the Zionist movement.
This post is not so much about the brutal and ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestine, paid for by the US taxpayer, but more about the clever, twisted, psychological attacks used by rightwing, explicitly racist Zionists to censor their critics, on the Net and in the physical world; and even more so, it is about the brave human beings, both Jews and non-Jews, who, despite this barrage of totalitarian hatred, continue the quiet, unglamorous, sometimes fatal work of speaking truth to power in occupied Palestine and elsewhere. Men and women who volunteer to risk their lives, unarmed, for the benefit of others. Respect seems an inadequate word.
This post was deleted for the following reason: what a mess
They do see a medical benefit for marijuana for relieving combat stress.
posted by Balisong at 8:12 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by Balisong at 8:12 PM on October 14, 2005
*Pours a glass of port, lights a pipe, and settles in for the night*
posted by Jimbob at 8:21 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by Jimbob at 8:21 PM on October 14, 2005
brave human beings and masada2000? You've got to be fucking kidding me. Good job, Samwise Gamgee.
posted by naxosaxur at 8:22 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by naxosaxur at 8:22 PM on October 14, 2005
Hmm, I don't think I'd call it ethnic cleansing.... that's another word for genocide, and I don't think that's happening in Palestine. The closest analogy is probably the Warsaw Ghetto, but I don't think it's nearly as brutal as that was. Notable similarities are: A large area that's essentially a prison camp, large walls enclosing the area, a large preponderance of a single ethnic type, and assassinations, retaliatory attacks against innocents, and destruction of property for misbehavior.
They are not, however, lining up Palestinians by the thousands and shipping them off to be gassed, and they don't appear to be actually starving them, so at worst it would be Warsaw Ghetto Lite. It's a giant prison camp, with all the things that are wrong about prisons, but it's not a death camp.
Whatever analogy best holds, ethnic cleansing is not an accurate term. It doesn't make what's going on over there right, and I'm incredibly uncomfortable with my tax dollars going to perpetuate this horrific wrongdoing, but it's important to avoid labels that are clearly inappropriate.
posted by Malor at 8:33 PM on October 14, 2005
They are not, however, lining up Palestinians by the thousands and shipping them off to be gassed, and they don't appear to be actually starving them, so at worst it would be Warsaw Ghetto Lite. It's a giant prison camp, with all the things that are wrong about prisons, but it's not a death camp.
Whatever analogy best holds, ethnic cleansing is not an accurate term. It doesn't make what's going on over there right, and I'm incredibly uncomfortable with my tax dollars going to perpetuate this horrific wrongdoing, but it's important to avoid labels that are clearly inappropriate.
posted by Malor at 8:33 PM on October 14, 2005
y2karl, this isn't about discussion, or even about tone - it's about the links. Read them and weep.
Naxosaxur, that's better than your last bizarre racist comment - what was it, "hitler j00s fag" or something like that? Congratulations on your newfound ability to spell. Now learn to think for yourself, you predictable Zionist prick. Let's hear some of your honest views, out in the open where we can help you, instead of your usual content-free noise and insults.
posted by cleardawn at 8:34 PM on October 14, 2005
Naxosaxur, that's better than your last bizarre racist comment - what was it, "hitler j00s fag" or something like that? Congratulations on your newfound ability to spell. Now learn to think for yourself, you predictable Zionist prick. Let's hear some of your honest views, out in the open where we can help you, instead of your usual content-free noise and insults.
posted by cleardawn at 8:34 PM on October 14, 2005
No, Malor, ethnic cleansing is not genocide at all. Ethnic cleansing is simply moving people out of the area to make it ethnically pure, which is exactly what's been happening in Palestine for since 1947, if not before.
Genocide is a different matter - it's not something that the Israelis can really be accused of, yet, fortunately. They'd have a lot of Arabs to get through first.
posted by cleardawn at 8:36 PM on October 14, 2005
Genocide is a different matter - it's not something that the Israelis can really be accused of, yet, fortunately. They'd have a lot of Arabs to get through first.
posted by cleardawn at 8:36 PM on October 14, 2005
I don't have the time to read the links right now, though I intend to (I'm at work) but I would like to recommend, for the sake of discussion, that cleardawn be slightly less vitriolic in his responses. Naxosaxur is not racist, and y2karl isn't saying anything remotely offensive. I sincerely hope that this, being what appears to be an enlightening and informative post, can have a more tolerant approach to discussion than what your responses imply. Whether your post is about discussion or not, MeFi IS about precisely that.
posted by shmegegge at 8:43 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by shmegegge at 8:43 PM on October 14, 2005
If all Jews were Zionists then cleardawn would have nothing to post about. I'd also like to point out that pointing out that not all Jews are Zionist is anti-anti-semitic: for many present-day anti-semites the "stereotypical Jew" more closely resembles Begin, Kahane and Baruch Goldstein than any character in Fiddler on the Roof or cartoon from Der Stuermer.
And cleardawn, you ask too much of poor naxosaxur. Racist or not, naxy is quite "limited".
And by the way, this FPP and thread have been called out.
posted by davy at 8:46 PM on October 14, 2005
And cleardawn, you ask too much of poor naxosaxur. Racist or not, naxy is quite "limited".
And by the way, this FPP and thread have been called out.
posted by davy at 8:46 PM on October 14, 2005
What shmegegge said. Do you really think this approach is going to change any hearts or minds? I get the impression you don't really want that, which is sad.
posted by bardic at 8:48 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by bardic at 8:48 PM on October 14, 2005
I hope that people commenting in this thread make sure to read the links. I haven't, but I can see the shitstorm on the horizon, and it could get ugly.
posted by interrobang at 8:51 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by interrobang at 8:51 PM on October 14, 2005
Yeah, a little gentler is better for persuading people.
posted by johngoren at 8:52 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by johngoren at 8:52 PM on October 14, 2005
as for the first link, what about the many of us who are Jewish who detest what's being done there--but not because of religion, but because of decency?
posted by amberglow at 8:55 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by amberglow at 8:55 PM on October 14, 2005
You know, I was going to post another note saying that we should really keep this post up, but cleardawn's further comments are so nasty that I'm not going to post it. With that kind of attitude, no intelligent discussion is going to happen here. Waste of time/space/bandwidth.
It's really a shame, because some good discussions desperately NEED TO happen on this topic... but given what I've seen already, there won't be any of that here. If mathowie deletes it I won't shed any tears.
I hope someone less, um, vitriolic can get a similar post together. I really would like to talk about some of these things.
posted by Malor at 8:58 PM on October 14, 2005
It's really a shame, because some good discussions desperately NEED TO happen on this topic... but given what I've seen already, there won't be any of that here. If mathowie deletes it I won't shed any tears.
I hope someone less, um, vitriolic can get a similar post together. I really would like to talk about some of these things.
posted by Malor at 8:58 PM on October 14, 2005
You know, I was going to post another note saying that we should really keep this post up, but cleardawn's further comments are so nasty that I'm not going to post it. With that kind of attitude, no intelligent discussion is going to happen here. Waste of time/space/bandwidth.
It's really a shame, because some good discussions desperately NEED TO happen on this topic... but given what I've seen already, there won't be any of that here. If mathowie deletes it I won't shed any tears.
I hope someone less, um, vitriolic can get a similar post together. I really would like to talk about some of these things.
posted by Malor at 9:00 PM on October 14, 2005
It's really a shame, because some good discussions desperately NEED TO happen on this topic... but given what I've seen already, there won't be any of that here. If mathowie deletes it I won't shed any tears.
I hope someone less, um, vitriolic can get a similar post together. I really would like to talk about some of these things.
posted by Malor at 9:00 PM on October 14, 2005
By the way, cleardawn, I must agree with shmeggege about y2karl's comment: I'm pretty sure he's being sarcastic (I've mentioned elsewhere my 'S Meter' seems to need recalibration) but by the standards of this place (exemplified in this thread by naxosaxur) y2karl was being urbane and civil.
But y2karl, I don't get that cartoon: please explain? Is that supposed to be a Jew, a typical Mefite, or maybe you or me?
And on preview, amberglow has a point.
posted by davy at 9:00 PM on October 14, 2005
But y2karl, I don't get that cartoon: please explain? Is that supposed to be a Jew, a typical Mefite, or maybe you or me?
And on preview, amberglow has a point.
posted by davy at 9:00 PM on October 14, 2005
1. I did not call naxosaxur racist: I called him a Zionist, which he appears, from his comments, to be. If he isn't, that would be interesting to hear - from him.
2. y2Karl, where did you get my picture from? It's an old one - I look much angrier than that now! Seriously, I hope you didn't think I was reacting angrily to you - I wasn't, at all. It's always hard to judge emotion through posts. Actually your comment made me chuckle, as did the Angry Guy pic.
3. I'm hoping for some interesting discussion here, particularly from Zionists. They seem very quick to insult and attack others, and very slow to present their own sincere beliefs. Perhaps if they could present some of their own opinions here, rather than just attacking me, we could see whether there is really any common ground between Zionism and the rest of humanity. At least, I can hope!
posted by cleardawn at 9:02 PM on October 14, 2005
2. y2Karl, where did you get my picture from? It's an old one - I look much angrier than that now! Seriously, I hope you didn't think I was reacting angrily to you - I wasn't, at all. It's always hard to judge emotion through posts. Actually your comment made me chuckle, as did the Angry Guy pic.
3. I'm hoping for some interesting discussion here, particularly from Zionists. They seem very quick to insult and attack others, and very slow to present their own sincere beliefs. Perhaps if they could present some of their own opinions here, rather than just attacking me, we could see whether there is really any common ground between Zionism and the rest of humanity. At least, I can hope!
posted by cleardawn at 9:02 PM on October 14, 2005
You called her a prick. Apply that to yourself please. Please take your hate and filth to some other venue. We don't want it around here.
posted by caddis at 9:32 PM on October 14, 2005
posted by caddis at 9:32 PM on October 14, 2005
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posted by y2karl at 8:09 PM on October 14, 2005