Holy Toledo
October 15, 2005 12:47 PM   Subscribe

[Newsfilter] Riots in Toledo, OH have broken out after Neo-Nazis gathered to take back the city. Their goal was to overpower the local predominantly black gangs in a demonstration march. Violence broke out and the march never took place; instead, the gangs began rioting. Fox News is covering it.
posted by spiderskull (53 comments total)
Neo-Nazis don't care about black people.
posted by wfrgms at 12:53 PM on October 15, 2005

I hate Illinois Nazis.
posted by ColdChef at 12:54 PM on October 15, 2005

"Violence at Ohio Neo-Nazi March"

I'm shocked, shocked!
posted by clevershark at 12:55 PM on October 15, 2005

Two dozen? Six arrested? Slow news day? Fast ship?
posted by furtive at 12:57 PM on October 15, 2005

Not a damn good thing to see here.

It's troubling though that someone would say:"They let them come here and expect this not to happen?"

Obviously Nazis are bad. Clearly the objective in the march was a sham.
Too much to ask, but I would have liked to see a shrug and the comment "Well, they're idiots, but that's their first amendment right."

Unfortunately challenging gangs outright, yeah, tends to get a response. So you can't say there wasn't provocation.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:00 PM on October 15, 2005

Their goal was to overpower the local predominantly black gangs in a demonstration march.

Sounds like a well thought out plan.

Truth be told, instead of violence, everybody in Toledo, black and white should've just pointed and luaghed at these morons. You wanna eradicate racism, don't make it into Satan, make it into Bozo The Clown. Most KKK'ers and Neo-Nazis have already given us a head start.
posted by jonmc at 1:10 PM on October 15, 2005

Well said Smedleyman! My thoughts exactly.
posted by banished at 1:12 PM on October 15, 2005

As a neo-Nazi group began to march through the streets of Toledo, a riot almost immediately broke out. Rocks and other objects were propelled toward the marchers, causing them to stop. However, the protestors continued their violence.

Police were called into the area but, as of this writing, the riots continue and appear to be increasing. Fox News video shows that rocks are now being thrown into homes and businesses and widespread looting is occurring. Rioters have now begun to rush homes in the area and are breaking into and looting them.

Wishful thinking here?

Those darn black people. You think that they'd be able to control themselves in the face of such a minor annoyance as a neo-Nazi march. But no, the slightest excuse...

In other news, I bought an awesome cranberry-pecan muffin on the way home from the gym, which I am eating at this very minute. Where's my Fox News coverage?
posted by jokeefe at 1:12 PM on October 15, 2005

As much as I love free speech, I hate having to pay for police protection of these bigots.
posted by adzm at 1:18 PM on October 15, 2005

I feel sort of sorry for the cops caught in the middle of this gross stupidity on both sides.
posted by alumshubby at 1:21 PM on October 15, 2005

Live video here.

The Freepers have been on this since it started. Interesting comments here and here.

posted by wfrgms at 1:38 PM on October 15, 2005

Looting? WTF?

Clearly there is always a certain number of people who just spend their time waiting for violence to break out so they can go help themselves to other peoples' property...
posted by clevershark at 1:41 PM on October 15, 2005

Couldn't have worked out better for the Neo-Nazi's.

People never learn...
posted by mkultra at 1:45 PM on October 15, 2005

pro Al Qaeda march through ground Zero. Protected by police.

Oh wait, never mind, racist European or American groups (lynching, pogroms, Nazis, neo-nazis) have more blood on their hands then Al Qaeda ever will.
posted by cell divide at 2:10 PM on October 15, 2005

That being said, I'm all for the first amendment, reacting calmly to things, etc. But I can't help but imagine what would happen if the Black Panthers (a benign group when compared to the legacy and forebearers of the neo-nazis, and positive role models compared to the KKK) tried to get a permit for a march in say, the white suburbs, or downtown in a Southern city.

We all know they wouldn't get one. So if that's the case, how can we invoke the first amendment, when we know it's not applied equally?
posted by cell divide at 2:21 PM on October 15, 2005

The whole point of the march was to cause a riot so that everyone would say 'oh-boy look how violent these poor blacks are'. And clearly they succeeded.

What I don't get is why the police had to go with 'em. If they want to antagonize poor blacks let 'em do it on their own.
posted by delmoi at 2:40 PM on October 15, 2005

You wanna eradicate racism, don't make it into Satan, make it into Bozo The Clown. Most KKK'ers and Neo-Nazis have already given us a head start.

True, but you need to do it early. Nazis can reach a point where it's hard to take the piss safely. The NF skins in England in the late seventies weren't too funny. We almost left it too late there...
posted by Decani at 2:45 PM on October 15, 2005

It's so easy to shout racial epithets when you have a cop protecting you. What a bunch of f-ing cowards. I can understand the crowd's frustration when cops are ordered to protect hate speech.

I also want to ask why these neo-nazi shenanigans always seem to happen in the midwest? There's probably more racists per capita in my neck of the woods (deep south) and yet no nazis and very few skins these days.
posted by photoslob at 3:10 PM on October 15, 2005

I can't help but imagine what would happen if the Black Panthers ... tried to get a permit for a march in say, the white suburbs, or downtown in a Southern city.

Since this event has nothing to do with the race of the rioters/looters I suspect that the white suburbanites would quickly abandon their SUVs or their Golden Retriever puppies and set about looting and burning their own neighborhoods.
posted by wfrgms at 3:28 PM on October 15, 2005

Violence erupts, black people are to blame, film at 11.
posted by drstrangelove at 3:43 PM on October 15, 2005

Since this event has nothing to do with the race of the rioters/looters I suspect that the white suburbanites would quickly abandon their SUVs or their Golden Retriever puppies and set about looting and burning their own neighborhoods.

Well, if the people protesting the march of the Black Panthers happened to be heavily-armed suburban youth gang members, sure. But the population density tends to be lower out there, so the dynamic would doubtless be different. If the Black Panthers marched downtown in a southern US city, I imagine the local population would be well-represented by their supporters, both white and black.

When I lived in an outrageously white suburb as a teenager, we had a fair number of break-ins; all were committed by white teenagers. Fortunately, because of adequate police presence taken from the fabric of the local community, most were caught. The rest, well, everyone just knew who did it.
posted by trigonometry at 3:45 PM on October 15, 2005

freakonomics had a great segment about using the secret code and hand shakes of the KKK in a childrens radio show. They made it into a game and their KKK parents were too emberassed to be seen at subsequent meetings.

reacting with violence was dumb. pointing and laughing Would have been better.
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 3:48 PM on October 15, 2005

how adorable - a nazi march - sponsored by Fred Perry. hehe. Hey nazi guy, were you born without elbows? Is that some sort of honky-evolution? hehehe. Doesn't it piss you off that tham naggers influenced everything except Pat Boone and Weird Al Yankovic? hehehe. Hey, remember when baseball was an all white sport - 60 freakin' years ago? hehehe. You know, you kinda throw like a black guy. Weird. hehehe. Oh, hey, you like rap music? No? Well maybe you should go back to Africa. It's supposed to be nice there about now. hehehe.
posted by racist dunk-tank clown at 4:01 PM on October 15, 2005

racist dunk-tank clown's first comment ladies and gentlemen!
posted by wfrgms at 4:31 PM on October 15, 2005

I guess that answers the question -- would people really pay $5 *just* to write a single comment which they wouldn't want to write under their regular MeFi identity?
posted by clevershark at 4:36 PM on October 15, 2005

I think racist dunk-tank clown's comment was worth $5. Can I have a baseball for free now?
posted by anthill at 5:03 PM on October 15, 2005

I agree - the best way to get rid of these stupid "neo-Nazis" would've been to just line the demonstration route, point, and laugh. Let them know that the rest of the world finds them a comical throwback, an emblem of stupidity.
posted by FormlessOne at 5:47 PM on October 15, 2005

Stereotypes +1
posted by HTuttle at 5:57 PM on October 15, 2005

Free speech only when we like it!
posted by HTuttle at 6:04 PM on October 15, 2005

Cripes, methinks the master race needs a better handle on Flash.
posted by undule at 6:07 PM on October 15, 2005

Why were they looting and burning shit down?
posted by shoos at 6:34 PM on October 15, 2005

because they were mad.

/simplistic assessment.
posted by RedEmma at 6:47 PM on October 15, 2005

in the american english sense, i mean.
posted by RedEmma at 6:48 PM on October 15, 2005

Two dozen Nazis aimed to combat black gangs in a fairly big U.S. city? Either Toledo has some obviously wussy street gangs or (more likely) the Nazis are smoking toad I wish they'd pass over here.
posted by davy at 6:50 PM on October 15, 2005

/simplistic assessment.
posted by RedEmma

whotta surprise!
posted by jonmc at 6:59 PM on October 15, 2005

To elaborate: Judging by your comment history, no member of any oppressed group anywhere has ever done anything for any reason except for noble anger, because they are magical beings possesing special wisdom that can alleive you of the guilt you feel for being born rich and white.

That attitude is paternalistic and patronizing at best. And this whole incident is a clusterfuck of monumental proportions, and mkultra is exactly right when he says that the Neo-Nazi's got exactly what they wanted out of this. As Andrew Vachss said "When OJ was acquitted, every Klansman in the country cheered."
posted by jonmc at 7:05 PM on October 15, 2005

cell divide : "...I can't help but imagine what would happen if the Black Panthers (a benign group when compared to the legacy and forebearers of the neo-nazis, and positive role models compared to the KKK) tried to get a permit for a march in say, the white suburbs, or downtown in a Southern city.

We all know they wouldn't get one..."

Really? I don't know if Houston is "the south" or not, but I can't really imagine the Black Panthers not being able to get a permit to march through downtown Houston.
posted by Bugbread at 7:32 PM on October 15, 2005

I think it so sadly narrow-minded that people (not neo-nazis, but the average American) doesnt equate poverty with the serious problems in the Black community. The 10 o'clock news never talks about the serious 'monetary' issues in these areas where "gangs" operate or families are falling apart. Kind of ignorant of say 70 % of America.
posted by flowfeel at 9:47 PM on October 15, 2005


Yeah, I've noticed that too and I can't explain it. I guess some how they feel not in control of the media that comes into their homes so they feel like if they document it in some way (say, with a digital camera snap shot) it some how puts them back in control.
posted by wfrgms at 11:51 PM on October 15, 2005

From TVNewser:
Some residents of Toledo, Ohio looted a tavern and tossed rocks at cops, and it was carried live and continuously on Fox News Channel for over an hour.

MSNBC and CNN primarily stayed with tape. CNN did offer a brief "breaking news" update at 3:30pm, and notice Fredricka Whitfield's tone: "When we get more information about the kind of alleged violence that has taken place, the fire, the alleged looting...we'll be bringing that to you throughout the day here on CNN."

Alleged. Her words were thoughtful and measured. By contrast, FNC's Julie Banderas referred to the situation as a "racial war." Banderas said Toledo had historically been a "tinderbox" for racial tension. FOXNews.com called the people "rioters." It was treated as an Alert for almost all of the 3pm hour, even though details were few and far between. It would be easy to question FNC's news judgment; critics could suggest that broadcasting the images was unethical and dangerous. But you know what? I was on the way out at 3:15, but when I turned on the TV, I was glued to Fox until 3:45...
Says it all, I think.
posted by Vidiot at 1:24 AM on October 16, 2005

what would happen if the Black Panthers... tried to get a permit for a march in say, the white suburbs

Wait, woah, I don't want darkies in MY neighborhood.

Actually, Bobby Seale spoke at the college I went to. Excellent talk.
I was working at a family owned resturant. Mostly hot dogs, sandwiches etc. All we had in the way of dessert were these brownies that the grandmother made.
Seale and his party came in and ordered. He asked if we had any desserts. The owner said "Yes, we have is brownies."

They all left.

The owner had no clue what the hell that was about.

Without some sense of history there can be no communication. We all know what the Neo-Nazis are about. The modern black movements are for the most part non-violent. I'm not a big Louis Farrakhan fan, but given the choice between a peaceful day of praying, singing and speechmaking (Million Man march) and a bunch of skinheads marching to "take the streets back" I'd advise my councilmen to vote for the former. Gangs are a different story. Not all us suburban white folks suffer from white guilt.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:54 AM on October 16, 2005

You wanna eradicate racism, don't make it into Satan, make it into Bozo The Clown.

Told a buddy of mine words to that effect before the nazi march in Skokie.

Hmmm.... (best read accompanied by Entry of the Gladiators)

A crowd that gathered to protest a Nazi-Clown march Saturday turned silly, throwing baseball-sized pies at police, crowding into tiny vehicles and spinning plates in a neighborhood bar, authorities said.

Mayor Jack Ford blamed the clowning on troupe members taking advantage of a goofy situation. He said he was declaring a state of cockamamy, and setting an 8 p.m. curfew. He also asked the Highway Patrol for seltzer.

"It's exactly what they wanted," Ford said of the group that planned the march, which was called off because of the clowning.

At least two dozen members of the National Socialist Auguste* Movement, which calls itself "America's Nazi-Auguste Party," had gathered at a city park just before noon and were to march under police protection. Organizers said they were demonstrating against Harlequins they said were "getting into the act."

Giddiness broke out about one-quarter of a mile away along the planned march route.

About 150 police officers in helicopters and on horses and foot chased bands of jesters throughout the afternoon. Officers wearing honking shoes fired laughing gas canisters and flash-burp devices designed to stun the buffoons, only to see the slaphappy groups reappear nearby and resume throwing pies and rubber chickens. A group honked on a convenience store and farted on vehicles. Spotlights were swept away in a nearby bar. At least six people were undignified.

Police Chief Mike Navarre said officers had a report of a man pied in the area, but they had not found a victim. No other zanieness had been reported, Navarre said.

The mayor had appealed to residents the night before to ignore the march.

He said the city indicated it wouldn't give the Nazi-clowns a permit to march in the streets but couldn't stop them from marching on the sidewalks like other idiots.

When the circus broke out, Ford tried negotiate with those involved, saying he would meet with them to discuss any humorousness, but he said "they weren't interested in that."

He said they were mostly "character clowns who had real or imagined absurdities and took it as an opportunity to clown in their own way."

"I am disappointed that some clowns who clearly are not strong citizens to begin with took this opportunity to make this statement," Ford said. "I was chagrined that there were obvious mothers and children in the clowns with them. Several intimated that they had seltzer bottles."

Thomas Frisch, a coulrophobic, said a large group of slapstick clowns did the "Pete and re-Pete" gag next to his home of 30 years.

"A whole big gang started to come in here tripping over their own feet. Next thing you know, they're all coming out of one tiny car. Then they overturned it. Then they started on the building, sitting on wet paint, ripping farts off," he said.

Keith White, a Pierrot resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the circus.

"They let them come here and expect this not to happen?" said White, 29.

*The Auguste is the zaniest and most foolish of the clown's group, yet attempts to look dignified, and thinks of himself as smart and superior and wise, which only lends to the comedic effect when he receives his inevitable come-uppance. The cleverer clown (the sidekick) always gets the better of the auguste. The auguste gets the pie in the face, is squirted with water, is knocked down on his backside, sits in the wet paint, etc.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:05 AM on October 16, 2005

equate poverty with the serious problems in the Black community

posted by undule at 2:20 AM on October 16, 2005

An earlier march came to my mind: On Saturday, November 3, 1979, in Greensboro, NC, an anti-Ku Klux Klan march and rally called by the little-known Communist Workers Party (CWP) erupted into violence. A shoving and scuffling match between leaders of the CWF and about fifteen members of a KKK and neo-Nazi group erupted into violence. Press reports said the shoot-out was touched off when a CWP member fired a handgun during the scuffle. The Klansmen and Nazis then armed themselves with weapons concealed in the trunk of a car and opened fire. Five leaden of the Communist Workers Party were killed and ten were wounded. Photographs of the shoot-out and its aftermath show that both the members of the Communist Workers Party and the Nazis were armed.
posted by Carol Anne at 10:05 AM on October 16, 2005

i don't know why i would bother to respond to anything you say to me, jonmc, since you seem incapable of saying anything that isn't patronizing, dismissive and downright rude, but hey, i've got a few minutes...

first of all, i was being flippant. sorry it caused you to splutter in your usual manner in reaction to the appearance of my moniker, which so gets your panties in a twist.

second, my attitude toward the reactions of opppressed people to their oppression is obviously more complex than what i've bothered to write in a comment section on a blog. maybe we can hang out sometime and hash it out. and this statement:

they are magical beings possesing special wisdom that can alleive you of the guilt you feel for being born rich and white.

is pretty funny. i confess to once being a victim of my own white guilt, but i've worked it out through long years of activism and hard work. funny how actually doing something about the oppression of others can help you get over yourself and get a handle on reality. (unlike you, jonmc, who seem to spend your time complaining about what others do and think when helping others.) BTW, it never had anything to do with seeing oppressed folks as "magical beings." it had to do with feeling guilty because chance gave me privileges others did not have. oh, and by the way, no one can relieve or alleviate (not "alleive" jonmc, that's not a word) someone's white guilt, they have to take care of it themselves.

my attitude toward what happened here is actually very close to yours. i believe that the NeoNazis did get what they hoped for. having actually gone to anti-Klan protests in the past and seen what happens there (ever done that jonmc? gone out of your little shell and bothered to see what it's like to see Klansmen in person, playing Ride of the Valkyries at full blast on the front steps of the state capitol? see riot police deal with the provocative acts of both sides? see how it affects black folks emotionally to confront those who would like to see them strung up on lampposts?), i can say unequivocally that avoiding these marches makes sense. however, i also spent several years teaching gangbangers, (in other words, teenage boys and young men) and it's not that hard to figure why things might get out of hand, if that's truly the makeup of the opposing crowd.

i don't think that you, or anyone who's white, can really understand what it's like to be faced with someone like a Neo-Nazi or a Klansman or others of their ilk in person if you are one of those they target. i can say, however, from first-hand observation, that it is an extremely emotional experience. it is not surprising that some people might get violent.
posted by RedEmma at 10:52 AM on October 16, 2005

I'll admit, I was tired, in physical pain, and a little drunk when I made that comment, so maybe it was more vociferous than it shoulda been. Sorry about that. But I think my point still stands to a degree.

ever done that jonmc? gone out of your little shell

I've been involved in activism. I've lived in crime-ridden areas and dealt with racial tension in the flesh. My better half teaches in a ghetto school in the South Bronx. You don't know enough about me to make that judgement. And I have no beef with people doing something to make the world better. My beef is with the conspicous "making alms before men to be seen," as the Bible puts it. Not to mention the judgemental and superior attitude (which your little spelling lesson above illustrates well) toward anyone who's not getting with your program that comes with it.

I'll freely admit that i could be wrong about you. But this is the impression I get. I'd recommend reading Richard Price's Samaritan, since he articulates what I'm getting at better than I do. I'd be (sincerely, no sarcasm) interested in your response.
posted by jonmc at 12:04 PM on October 16, 2005 [1 favorite]

Are American Neo-Nazis anti-Slav? Because the white people in that North Toledo neighborhood are apparently Polish-Americans, and hence also racially anathema to the Nazis, which just strikes me as terribly ironic.

If you go to Times Square, you will often see three black guys dressed in flashy wizard's robes who call themselves the Church of the True Israelites, and loudly proclaim to anyone within earshot that when the End Times come, all white people will be enslaved by their new black masters — a black master race, if you will. Maybe it's the bright, shiny polyester clothing, but I didn't see anyone take them too seriously. They are not a credible threat. Neo-Nazis are not really a credible threat in this day and age either, but for whatever reason, people in this Toledo neighborhood found them so. That might be because they perhaps identify the power structure around them as essentially "white", and therefore potentially sympathetic to Neo-Nazis. But that's just speculation on my part.

A quote from the mayor of Toledo, Jack Ford, points up yet another irony of this ridiculous situation:
But [the mayor] said the people who confronted him angrily at Central Avenue and Mulberry Street about 3:30 p.m. included not just gang leaders, but other people, including women and children. He said they were furious that the police and mayor protected the neo-Nazis in their neighborhood.

"They were angry that I, as a black man, would uphold the Constitution," Mr. Ford said. "They didn't accept that. For them, it was a turf issue."
So in the eyes of the rioters, the mayor was "one of us," the guy who represents "our people" in an otherwise hostile system, and so his decision to allow the march and provide police protection to the Nazis was interpreted as a betrayal of his race, adding even more fuel to the crowd's ire. You just can't win these days.
posted by skoosh at 12:28 PM on October 16, 2005

to jonmc:
well, i guess that since your "point" over time has been variously that that i'm a guilt-ridden white idiot-chick who thinks that everyone who's oppressed deserves an "oh, poor you", that since i use "RedEmma" as my moniker i therefore must sympathize with the worst of uneducated, simplistic Marxist ideology, and that i'm a youngster without a clue... i'm a little confused as to what your "point" is exactly. especially since none of what you've assessed me to be seems to have much to do with me or what i've written, but rather a knee-jerk reaction for the sake of being snarky.

i will throw this right back atcha:
You don't know enough about me to make that judgement. along with the "judgmental and superior attitude," which was only a response clearly in kind. (the spelling lesson is one i will only throw at someone who is clearly being prickly for the sake of show.)

no one who knows me would call my activist work one of "show," because they know how much i hate TV cameras and doing interviews. if you knew me, you'd know that i have always been a behind-the-scenes worker whenever possible. however, i will often throw out my actual experience, especially in print with strangers, when it is needed to back up my opinions, rather than just throw them out and expect their validity to be assumed (which i can do down at my local bar with friends). if you are only referring to my work as a "front" for making my suburban-bred white self feel better.... well, i can admit that there was a time in my life when i was partly motivated to escape my upbringing (an Ayn Rand disciple of a mother, for instance), but, you know, i grew up, just like lots of people.

i do hold the opinion that you spend more time jumping on leftist activists (those before you or those being covered in the news) than you do actually working on the worries of the world. i believe that based on my experience with those who react the way you appear to to people like me. you're not far off from the "get a job" crowd, it would seem, needing to throw out an insult to anyone who would make a public declaration of activist interest. i always wonder, incidentally, if the "white guilt" throwaway accusation isn't really the reaction of someone who does little who's trying to denigrate the acts of someone who's making effort because it's easier than doing and examining oneself.

although my reading list is insanely long, i will check out your link.
posted by RedEmma at 1:04 PM on October 16, 2005

i believe that based on my experience with those who react the way you appear to to people like me. you're not far off from the "get a job" crowd, it would seem, needing to throw out an insult to anyone who would make a public declaration of activist interest.

Well, here's where it gets complicated, at least for me. I am a believer in the work ethic because that's how I was raised, but I do understand that "get a job," is a simplistic solution when all the jobs one could raise a fmaily with have been outsourced or eliminated.

And for what it's worth, I don't think of you as any kind of idiot, otherwise I wouldn't bother breaking your balls so much. If you look at my history here on MeFi, I have a tendency of establishing interesting relationships with those I differ from, mainly because I like hearing other people's perspectives, and simply because I'm a freak for hearing other people's stories. And it's only when people are strongly challenged by someone they can't easily write off that you find out what they're made of.

As far as examining myself. I have a hard enough time keeping my own life together, let alone telling anyone else how to change theirs, so I figure that the best thing I can do is try not to fuck things up any further.

And I don't have a problem with activism, so much as I feel that most activist models are insufficient or clueless about thosethey are trying to help and those they putatively oppose. Or maybe I just cut people too much slack. But I'd rather do that than the opposite.

I'd add John Sayles Union Dues to your reading list, too. It's probably the best political fiction I've ever read in that it forces you to feel empathy for all it's characters, from coal miners to cops to revolutionaries to suburbanites. And that's in short supply. As is the historical perspective Sayle's work is shot through with.

Vaya con dios.
posted by jonmc at 3:16 PM on October 16, 2005

Oh, man - this event really is just one of those minor signals too easily dismissed by liberal intelligentsia (convinced that "it can't happen here") of the beginning of the real shitstorm. We ain't seen nothin' yet:

Ku Klux Klan Coming To Midland Public Television

“The Klan,” a video news program distributed by the Ku Klux Klan will be airing on MCTV in Midland. The first airing of the program will be on Saturday, October 22nd at 11:30 pm.

Call me cynical, but I'll bet that MCTV is one rare PBS station that suspiciously won't be lacking in Federal cash come next fundraising season.
posted by objet at 6:21 PM on October 16, 2005

Vaya con dios.

What with the riddance, and the good, hey hey.
posted by undule at 12:06 AM on October 17, 2005

so Fox News got an interview with the leader of the Neo-Nazi's, but not the 'gang' leaders, or at least people who got sprayed down and shot at by police?

what was the reason for stealing from the businesses? who owned those businesses? why were they a target?

and we're supposed to buy that the news media aren't playing along with this white supremacy game? why is one side of jackasses portrayed explicitly and the 'other' treated like they act from the spine?
posted by eustatic at 8:05 PM on October 17, 2005

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