withdrawl method
November 18, 2005 3:16 PM   Subscribe

Newsfilter: Congress to vote tonight on immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq. Apperantly this is some political theater based on John Murtha's call to withdrawal troops, in order to force democrats into a potentially embarrassing anti-war vote. While republicans are calling this a "democratic resolution" the actual text was written by republicans, and is very different from Murtha's original resolution.
posted by delmoi (316 comments total)
 
Oh, that last link is hilarious.
posted by brundlefly at 3:22 PM on November 18, 2005


Hopefully Harry Reid is reading:
The Democratic House members should propose a resolution saying "President Bush is doing a great job executing the war in Iraq"

I'm serious. The Republicans are now pushing a resolution in the House, forcing a vote on whether we should immediately withdraw our troops from Iraq. The Republicans of course don't want to remove the troops, they think the war is going fine, so they're trying to embarrass the Dems into voting against withdrawing the troops, and thus voting against Congressman Murtha, who so bravely yesterday called for the US to withdraw.

But that's fine. Let's join the Republicans at their same game.

The Dems should try to offer a resolution, and have the Repubs block it, proclaiming the sense of the Congress that President Bush is doing a great job - a heck of a job, one might say - executing the war in Iraq. If the Republicans kill the resolution, they look like they're afraid to endorse Bush, and if they vote for the resolution, they'll look like idiots calling this a great job when the majority of the public doesn't agree.

Other possible resolutions to offer:

- We are winning the Iraq war.
- Invading Iraq was a great idea.
- Knowing what they know now they'd vote to invade Iraq again.

You get the picture.
posted by tapeguy at 3:25 PM on November 18, 2005


This is pathetically, disgustingly dirty. It's obvious that national security is nothing but a political football to Republican leadership. Shame on them.
posted by teece at 3:25 PM on November 18, 2005


The GOP also proposed and struck down a measure to have themselves all hung. Once again they have emerged victorious against the murderous Democrats.
posted by parallax7d at 3:26 PM on November 18, 2005


It'd actually be an embarrassing pro-war vote at this point, right?
posted by hackly_fracture at 3:31 PM on November 18, 2005


tapeguy,

heh. This would lead to 700 bills voted on and defeated, which would eventually be known as the 2005 "As If" proposals.
posted by hackly_fracture at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2005


Why wouldn't the democrats just refuse to vote en mass to highlight the bullshit? Call the press and just walk out.
posted by srboisvert at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2005


I am wondering that too, srboisvert. But parliamentary procedure is really, really baroque. I don't know if that is an option. But if it is, they should do it.
posted by teece at 3:35 PM on November 18, 2005


tapeguy: I don't believe the democrats can schedule votes. There are all kinds of amendments and procedural rules you can use to block votes on bills, indefinitely (until the end of a congress at least, which would be two years) if you're in the majority. There's no way a democrat could get a bill to the floor in this amount of time

(which makes this vote extra lame, IMO)
posted by delmoi at 3:36 PM on November 18, 2005


Why wouldn't the democrats just refuse to vote en mass to highlight the bullshit? Call the press and just walk out.

A political analyst said on CNN that the Democrats may all vote "present" -- not "yea" or "ney" -- to protest the resolution.
posted by ericb at 3:37 PM on November 18, 2005


One of the highlights of the debate --
"With stinging rhetoric, Democrats criticized the GOP alternative. They said House Republican leaders killed Murtha's thoughtful approach.

The fiery, emotional debate climaxed when Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, the most junior member of the House, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.

'He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do,' Schmidt said.

Democrats booed and shouted her down — causing the House to come to a standstill.

Rep. Harold Ford, D-Tenn., charged across the chamber's center aisle screaming that it was an uncalled for personal attack. 'You guys are pathetic. Pathetic,' yelled Rep. Marty Meehan, D-Mass."
Schmidt has since apologized to the House and asked that her statements be struck from the record.
posted by ericb at 3:39 PM on November 18, 2005


Jean Schmidt:


posted by ericb at 3:42 PM on November 18, 2005


it seems to me that every bit as much political hay can be made out of this by the dems as by the repubs.

upthread, there's some good ideas -- protest votes and etc. i think it was a misstep on the repub part to make the resolution so simple, as opposed to a longer counter-resolution that would be harder to parse. it's immediately clear to anyone that by proposing this, the republicans are more concerned with political football than they are with actual solutions to problems. i kinda think that their own votes on this proposal can be used against them in the midterm elections.

"195 soldiers have died since Rep. Hayworth proposed, and then voted against, this resolution. 195 soldiers that would be alive..." on voiceover...
posted by Hat Maui at 3:46 PM on November 18, 2005


Don't walk. Vote yes. Throw it right back in their face.

"The GOP insists that our only options are never ending war in Iraq, or immediate withdrawal. If that's our choice, we vote to withdraw, today -- no more soldiers dying for GOP lies. No more soldiers dying fighting anybody but the man who attacked New York City -- and who is still alive and at large today. The smoking gun here, Mr. President, is that there was, and would never be, a mushroom cloud.

The GOP insists that we state that we are always for their war, or never for that war. That statement is easy to make. If it's the wrong war forever or immediate withdrawal, there's no question as to my vote. I vote for immediate withdrawal."

Of course, being Congressional Democrats, they won't do that. "Too risky" -- as if the press would ever give you a break. They'll run away, and the talking points will be "The democrats RAN from a vote to support the war. Only cowards cut and run. They wouldn't even stand up for thier own measure"

Yeah, it's bullshit, but that's exactly what will happen.
posted by eriko at 3:46 PM on November 18, 2005


Apperantly this is some political theater based on John Murtha's call to withdrawal troops, in order to force democrats into a potentially embarrassing anti-war vote.

Intriguing.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:48 PM on November 18, 2005


eriko: If it was up to me, I'd vote yes on this mesure, but only because I know it would never affect anything. There would still need to be a senate measure, and ultimately a presidential veto (which would surely happen).

Ultimately, withdrawing from Iraq right this minute would cause problems. But that doesn't mean withdraw plans can't be drawn up and executed over a specific timeframe.
posted by delmoi at 3:49 PM on November 18, 2005


speaking of Jean Schmidt
posted by delmoi at 3:52 PM on November 18, 2005


Ultimately, withdrawing from Iraq right this minute would cause problems.

Oh, agreed. But the GOP will never let that measure hit the floor. The point of voting yes is to tell the American public that the GOP choice is simple -- get out now, or keep fighting and dying forever, and give a choice between the two, you'll get out now.

You'd much rather do it over time, so that maybe, just maybe, Iraq could be a stable country. But the GOP won't let that happen. They're for war in Iraq forever.

That's why you vote yes. "The GOP won't give us a reasonable choice to vote on. So, we will *gladly* vote for the least unreasonable one. Bring our soldiers home."

The real meaning behind this move is to cut the Dems off from Murtha's statement. Standing up and voting for this bogus resolution -- it's a sense-of-the-House, for gods sake, it means nothing legally -- shows that the dems aren't going to cave on this.
posted by eriko at 3:54 PM on November 18, 2005


The GOP also proposed and struck down a measure to have themselves all hung

So the GOP are all satisfied with the sizes of their cocks? Why are we then engaged in these pissing matches all the time?
posted by WolfDaddy at 3:54 PM on November 18, 2005


Charlie: They said you was hung!
Sheriff Bart: And they was right!
posted by kirkaracha at 4:03 PM on November 18, 2005


This is shameless. The GOP knows no bounds. They are truly out of control.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 4:06 PM on November 18, 2005


Jean Schmidt is probably the most vile person to ever serve in the U.S. Congress. She at least looks the part.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:12 PM on November 18, 2005


Jean Schmidt is probably the most vile person to ever serve in the U.S. Congress. She at least looks the part.

Worse then Santorum? Then DeLay? then Thurmond during his race baiting days, and so on?

Schmidt is an idiot, but, hardly the worst congressperson evar.
posted by delmoi at 4:16 PM on November 18, 2005


The Republicans are like rich children, acting out all over again.

Look Daddy, my turd is precious!
posted by The Jesse Helms at 4:16 PM on November 18, 2005


Ha Ha!

I can't believe that things are going so well politically for the Dems these days.

Given the dark mood last Nov., who would have dreamed that we'd be at this point right now?

The Republicans have a long, long way to drop from here; the Dems have successfully shifted the national debate back to the Iraq war and the lies leading up to it.

Go Blue!
posted by Cycloptichorn at 4:27 PM on November 18, 2005


Could someone post a picture of the alien baby from Alien 4: Resurrection next to the picture of Jean Schmidt?
posted by FYKshun at 4:53 PM on November 18, 2005


Schmidt is an idiot, but, hardly the worst congressperson evar.
posted by delmoi at 4:16 PM PST on November 18


I didn't say worst; I said most vile.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:54 PM on November 18, 2005


Sigh. According to Kos, Peolsi has instructed (but not requiring) the dems to vote no.

Sigh. Yet another talking point for the GOP.

Meanwhile, according to Talking Points Memo, the GOP is calling for a ethics investigation on Jim Murtha's campaign office.

So, Democrats wimp out, Rethugs start smearing another decorated veteran. It's NOT LIKE WE'VE SEEN THIS PLAY BEFORE.

God, why are the democrats such fucking idiots?
posted by eriko at 5:10 PM on November 18, 2005


Given the dark mood last Nov., who would have dreamed that we'd be at this point right now?

Lets not overstate the case. We still lost CAFTA, the bankruptcy bill, and the Roberts nomination, and it, while its still in flux, it appears likely that we'll lose the Alito nomination. Plus the hundreds of other important changes in policy that the media doesn't notice. Its fun to point and laugh while your opponents deal with the reality of governing, but its better to laughed at while doing the governing yourself.
posted by gsteff at 5:11 PM on November 18, 2005


Now the media is reporting that the White House is making threats against Rep. Murtha, saying there's an ethical investigation under way. Sickening.
posted by mmahaffie at 5:21 PM on November 18, 2005



FYKshun: Which one is real?


posted by mr.curmudgeon at 5:25 PM on November 18, 2005


Kucinich just kicked their booties! Yeah! (Oh how I wish he were president)
posted by leapingsheep at 5:28 PM on November 18, 2005


Which one is real?

SURRENDER DEMOCRATS!
posted by WolfDaddy at 5:45 PM on November 18, 2005


I was trying to watch this trainwreck on CSpan, and a Republican said, "To my friends on the other side of the aisle - do not let your hatred of the President get in the way of loving your Country."

I began throwing up violently.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 5:48 PM on November 18, 2005


gsteff is right. Remember when Clinton was getting the serious GOP beat-down during Whitewater and Lewinski? He was like some un-dead thing zombie robot thing. it was amazing remember?

The GOP tosses the Molotov cocktail at him - and walks right through the flames. They shot nine rounds into his chest - he still kept coming. They then in futility threw the empty gun at him and not surprisingly he still kept coming.

The Republicans learned from him. They started off with the biggest lie they could during the the 2000 election and led the democrats expend their biggest artillery on to counter it. They pretended like it was nothing. By the time we get to the war and the lies to get us there... they got a zombie machine momentum all their own and the democrats have nothing left.
posted by tkchrist at 5:51 PM on November 18, 2005


I think they should vote yes. Everyone.
posted by mrgrimm at 6:04 PM on November 18, 2005


Earlier this evening, I caught Mort Kondracke on FOX News talking about this turn of events and saying that only 19% of Americans favor an immediate withdrawal. However, according to September CNN poll, " Sixty-three percent said they wanted to see some or all U.S. troops withdrawn from that country." I guess it's possible that the disparity hinges on the word "immediate," but it's far more likely that Kondracke is just full of shit.

In any case, I think it's completely fucked up that somewhere between a third and two thirds (I think the percentage has increased pretty dramatically over the last two years) of the country has serious misgivings about the Iraq war and we're only just now starting to see something like opposition to it from some of our elected representatives.
posted by Clay201 at 6:06 PM on November 18, 2005


When, exactly, is this vote supposed to come in?
posted by interrobang at 6:08 PM on November 18, 2005


tkchrist,

Maybe you missed the fact the the minority party has effectively controlled the agenda since Bush tried to demolish Social Security.

They've effectively controlled the Iraq War debate since Reid invoked Rule 22.

I'm not always happy with their behavior, and lack of media savvy, but damn...I've got to give credit where credit is due. They've, lately, been beating the pulp out of Cheney and his Boy Blunder.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:08 PM on November 18, 2005


Does anyone know how many Democrats and Republicans would support Murtha's original resolution?

How about the new one?
posted by notmtwain at 6:10 PM on November 18, 2005


We should be our of Iraq by 2009. And the world will be a much better place for our efforts. Lets just hope we can defang Iran without to many casualties. And the Syria just collapses.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:14 PM on November 18, 2005


Ralph Nader's call for the Democrats to stake out a platform and support the Murtha resolution.
posted by notmtwain at 6:14 PM on November 18, 2005



Why does almost every single Republican speaking on the floor, feel the need to either wave the bloody shirt of one of our dead soldiers, or invoke Al Jazeera?

Is that all they've got?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:15 PM on November 18, 2005


(that Syria; not the)
posted by ParisParamus at 6:15 PM on November 18, 2005




SOMETIMES I DOUBT YOUR COMMITMENT TO SPARKLE MOTION
posted by mek at 6:16 PM on November 18, 2005


And the world will be a much better place for our efforts.

Your mountain of evidence is overwhelming. Are you always this convincing?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:16 PM on November 18, 2005


I guess we're getting the vote...right now.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:20 PM on November 18, 2005


We should be our of Iraq by 2009. And the world will be a much better place for our efforts. Lets just hope we can defang Iran without to many casualties. And the Syria just collapses.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:14 PM PST on November 18


Don't make me copy and paste your infamous quote, Paris.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:22 PM on November 18, 2005


This really sounds like a fraternity prank that no one had the nerve (or the cojones) to stop, once the ball started rolling.

"Hell, they want to withdraw, then we should make them vote on it!"

"Yeah!"

"And we should make it so they can either withdraw unilaterally, or nothing else!"

"Yeah!"

"And we should make them vote on whether or not they wax their pubes!"

"Yeah!"
posted by yhbc at 6:23 PM on November 18, 2005


They've, lately, been beating the pulp out of Cheney and his Boy Blunder.

Though I'd LIKE to concur - I strongly disagree that most of this was the result of any serious intentional Democratic Party strategy (With the possible exception of Virginia's gubernatorial race.)

Chimpy has been beating himself. It was bound to happen. The entire Iraq war was a fools errand from the get go. Then there was Harriet Meiers (sp?), etc.

What Democrats HAVE learned is to get out of the way.

I do hope they actually vote for the withdrawal of troops. Then they are on their way to having a principled stand again.
posted by tkchrist at 6:30 PM on November 18, 2005


mr.curmudgeon -- SCORE! Brilliant!
posted by ericb at 6:30 PM on November 18, 2005


just this morning in another thread I was politely pointing out how Republicans in this sad, blood-stained autumn are really desperate fucks -- burdened with a neverending war that costs a billion dollars a month, a higher and higher body count and a better, more organized insurgency to fight, they're basically reduced to throwing tantrums.
their President after all, unlike Congressional Republicans, won't have to run again. terror alerts don't work anymore, the people -- numbed by all those TERRAR! TERRAR! Homeland Security skits -- aren't simply as scared as they once were. yes, another attack would scare the electorate all over again, scare them shitless, just like four years ago, get them as willing to write blank checks to the GOp as they once were, but the economy would tank for real and that's never good for the Party who's running all three branches of government at the same time.
so they really don't know what to do, what to hope for.
they're so fucking desperate to blame somebody else for this obscene mess that they're reaching Monty Python levels of comedic genius -- only, theirs is involuntary. silly walks indeed. if it weren't for all those people being slaughtered on a daily basis, it'd be really funny.
posted by matteo at 6:32 PM on November 18, 2005


yhbc,

Thanks for that...it's been a heated evening, and that was funny.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:34 PM on November 18, 2005


Every time I think I can't lose more respect for the Republican party, they prove me wrong.

Could somebody please direct me towards a party for fiscal conservatives who aren't batshit insane?
posted by I Love Tacos at 6:35 PM on November 18, 2005


Why does almost every single Republican speaking on the floor, feel the need to either wave the bloody shirt of one of our dead soldiers, or invoke Al Jazeera?

Is that all they've got?


Well. Chappaquiddick is too hard to spell.

And then communism is kind of cute and retro. Fear of Ritualistic satanic abuse got dispelled with the Osbournes and MTV. Will and Grace makes homosexuality fun and popular. And Osama is is still conspicuously and embarrassingly at large...

So. Yeah. It's pretty much all they got.
posted by tkchrist at 6:36 PM on November 18, 2005


matteo,

Dead on.

Even Rumsfeld, the chief architect of this debacle, is starting to back out the door. This is after he attempted to turn in his resignation to Bush, where it was refused...twice.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:46 PM on November 18, 2005


What is this? A vote on whether to vote? I'm confused.
posted by leapingsheep at 6:47 PM on November 18, 2005


Yes 205, Nays....
posted by ed at 6:50 PM on November 18, 2005


Yeas 210, Nays 202.

It passed.
posted by ed at 6:51 PM on November 18, 2005


Holy shiite.
posted by yhbc at 6:52 PM on November 18, 2005


leaping,

I was mistaken, it's a vote on whether to vote. But it passed, and NOW we're getting a vote.

But via Kos,
"The vote on the rule to bring the Fake Hunter Resolution to the floor for a vote passed 205-202, but every Democratic representative voted against the rule and 5 Republicans joined the Democrats."

So, so far, politically, it has blown up in the GOP's face.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:53 PM on November 18, 2005


This is the now the most important vote of this session, sadly. And it is nothing but political theater. How people vote for this resolution will be used in nearly every single political race next year. They're taking a page from all the points they scored on kerry for his 'i voted for it before i voted against it' blunder. Expect the republicansto use this against every single democrat that votes 'no' and has shown at least the slightest support of the war. It's really just a shame again that sad political theater will once again trump showing actual progress and results from washington.
posted by my sock puppet account at 6:53 PM on November 18, 2005


Damn, overtime strong-armed it into 210/202.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:54 PM on November 18, 2005


What an awful presidency. I wish I had more to say than that, the rest of you are obviously speaking with more regard and information than I have.
posted by Dean Keaton at 6:56 PM on November 18, 2005


Lantos is up and the Demos are wildly cheering Murthas.
posted by ed at 6:58 PM on November 18, 2005


Another hour of smashing, fiery debate!
posted by leapingsheep at 6:59 PM on November 18, 2005


Lantos: "The subject of Iraq deserves serious debate and we are surely not having it tonight."

Demos are going to stand strong on this one. And Murthas controls the time.
posted by ed at 7:01 PM on November 18, 2005


Any C-span streams online? This feels very spotty and unreliable.
posted by anthill at 7:01 PM on November 18, 2005


anthill: Try the stand alone player.
posted by ed at 7:02 PM on November 18, 2005


This is extremely sad.
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:02 PM on November 18, 2005


It's become apparent to me, tonight, that I am a political nerd.

I'm getting drunk, watching CSPAN, cheering at the TV...and applauding speakers...like they are scoring touchdowns.

All by myself. (My lady is out w/ friends)

And it's great.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:03 PM on November 18, 2005


Tacos,

ARE YOU KIDDING?? We needed this debate YEARS ago...it's LOOOOOOONG overdue and I say better late than never. Sure, it's a political ploy by the GOP, but damn if it isn't drawing together some of the most frayed ends of our current state of affairs.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:06 PM on November 18, 2005


Spoken like a true curmudgeon. What's Curt Weldon's agenda? He speaks like a conciliator. Now that the smearing has backfired, it's all smiles...

(Got C-Span working, thanks)
posted by anthill at 7:07 PM on November 18, 2005


*hopes for Kucinich to speak again for a long, long time*
posted by leapingsheep at 7:09 PM on November 18, 2005


Tacos,

ARE YOU KIDDING??


No, I'm not. I can't remember a time that I was more ashamed of the Republican party.

And I can remember the Lewinsky "scandal".
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:12 PM on November 18, 2005


anthill,

Spoken like a true curmudgeon.

Is that sarcasm? I'm too many sheets to the wind. :)
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:13 PM on November 18, 2005


I need a damned taco. And a bottle of tequila.
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:13 PM on November 18, 2005


Murthas is fire and brimstone right now.

I need a taco too. The tequila's taken care of. :)
posted by ed at 7:14 PM on November 18, 2005


My college town had a taco delivery service. You would be pleased.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:15 PM on November 18, 2005


Tacos,

No, I'm not. I can't remember a time that I was more ashamed of the Republican party.

Don't despair, watch CSPAN, look what they've accomplished. This is great rousing debate. Whether it'll carry through the news cycle until Monday is another story.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:22 PM on November 18, 2005


Murtha: "I drive past Arlington Cemetery every day and the tombstones don't say Republican or Democrat. They say American."
posted by ed at 7:23 PM on November 18, 2005


A-FUCKING-MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:23 PM on November 18, 2005


Bill Young's up. And all he can say is "We owe our troops our support." This is AFTER Murtha's attacked the policy for not providing for the troops.
posted by ed at 7:25 PM on November 18, 2005


Bill Young says vote no.

What more do you people want?
posted by Coda at 7:27 PM on November 18, 2005


I love the difference in speaking styles between Murtha and Bill Young. Bill Young speaks like an elementary school teacher.
posted by anthill at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005


"We got committed when we voted to send troops to Iraq." Heh heh. If only.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005


Young: "Once you're committed, you're committed. So how do you get out of it? You can win or you can lose."
posted by ed at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005


My tax dollars are paying for this government, Democrat and Republican alike.

I want a refund.
posted by fet at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005


Or surrender, or negotiate, or retreat...

Take that, binary opposition!
posted by Coda at 7:29 PM on November 18, 2005


Bill Young, you're guilty of a thread derail. Gimme 10 pushups.
posted by Coda at 7:30 PM on November 18, 2005


15 minutes left for GOP, 10 1/2 left for Murtha.

Now up: Hepley.
posted by ed at 7:32 PM on November 18, 2005


The GOP is chanting to vote.

Hefley: "I want us to withdraw the moment the job is done." And he's pulling the Iraqi people want us to stay until the job is done.
posted by ed at 7:33 PM on November 18, 2005


Young: "Everyone in Iraq are pure and simple terrorists. And it's a good thing us 296 voted to support our president and fight Terror and Saddam Hussein so that the American people can sleep soundly at night.

I like that slip about wounded soldiers - "Why would I bribe an wounded American soldier? He's already done everything he can for me!"

and in closing, terrorism, prevail, support, vote no, amen."
posted by anthill at 7:34 PM on November 18, 2005


Hefley: They've had elections! Two special elections!

Guess the casualties don't count, eh?
posted by ed at 7:35 PM on November 18, 2005


Murtha's up again.
posted by ed at 7:35 PM on November 18, 2005


Murtha reading a letter about a 24 year old soldier who lost his leg in a suicide bomb. Proud of standing up against Bush administration.
posted by ed at 7:37 PM on November 18, 2005


Vietnam vet Simmons up on the GOP side.
posted by ed at 7:37 PM on November 18, 2005


Bob Simmons wants another Vietnam, but this time with FEELING!
posted by Coda at 7:38 PM on November 18, 2005


Murtha comes back with another letter from someone actually in the war.
posted by Coda at 7:39 PM on November 18, 2005


Not much from Simmons actually.

Murtha -- another letter. Son killed. Bringing up the fact that body armor was not provided for soldiers.
posted by ed at 7:39 PM on November 18, 2005


OMG I can't believe they're getting a standing ovation for comparing this debate to when the US 'cut and run' in Vietnam...

Look at Vietnam today. It's terrible! They're communist, and a threat to America! :)

What a bunch of hacks.

Murtha's doing the right thing in the face of such hackery. Reading letters from wounded soldiers.
posted by anthill at 7:40 PM on November 18, 2005


And going on in the background...
posted by FunkyHelix at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005


Rep. BUyer is telling about having hallucinations ....
posted by mmahaffie at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005


The classical approach to speech pretty much died once Jesse Jackson learned litotes, didn't it?
posted by fet at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005


Stever Buyer says dead WWII soldiers tell him to tell you to vote no.
posted by Coda at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005


Steve Buyer. Trying to show that he's down with it by noting that he stood at Omaha. "Permitted the eyes of my mind to have a vision I could actually see."

Silly as fuck and your poetry sucks, bud.
posted by ed at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005


They want to "envelope our weakness?" Who elected this clown?
posted by mmahaffie at 7:43 PM on November 18, 2005


Steve Buyer: We're all one, so let's not betray ourselves. "Can you hang with us, Congress?" say soldiers.
posted by Coda at 7:44 PM on November 18, 2005


The soliders are "an extension of us." "Can you hang with us, Congress? That's a very pertinent question for a soldier to ask of us."

The irony drips thick.
posted by ed at 7:44 PM on November 18, 2005


The house, apparently, is not in order.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005


Funky,

Ok, I'll see the GOP's call for an ethics investigation into Murtha, and I'll raise them a flipped Michael Scanlon.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005


Wow, Buyer sounds more like a WWI general. The French err... American troops will prevail because of their "martial spirit". Send 'em up into the machineguns!
posted by anthill at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005


Tom Lantos. Go dude.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005


I have never, EVER seen the US House like this... unbelievable.
posted by fet at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005


Tom Lantos looks like Count Chocula. Talks like him too.

And Congress is a racial epithet away from a riot right now.
posted by Coda at 7:46 PM on November 18, 2005


Buyer appologizes. Whee.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:46 PM on November 18, 2005


ed,

Buyer's "ears of my heart" was my favorite part. I peed a little.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:47 PM on November 18, 2005


Murtha calling Colin Powell's treatment an embarassment.
posted by ed at 7:48 PM on November 18, 2005


(Out of curiosity, does anyone think Murtha reading these letters is effective or not? Does this not qualify as an appeal to emotion?)
posted by fet at 7:49 PM on November 18, 2005


Gil Scott Heron was wrong
The revolution will be televised.
posted by Bighappyfunhouse at 7:49 PM on November 18, 2005


Geoff Davis: Your shouting and your rhetoric sends message to our enemies. (booooo!)
posted by ed at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005


Fet, it is an effective way of disproving the GOP's only argument, which is that supporting the troops means keeping them in Iraq.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005


Geoff Davis represents his peeps: the military. "Your shouting sends echos to our enemies..."
posted by Coda at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005


Hahaha... "your shouting and your rhetoric sends comfort to the ears of our enemies."

Man. Are these people adults?
posted by fet at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005


JD Hayworth. What a pain in the ass.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:51 PM on November 18, 2005


leapingsheep: Not as a logical argument, it isn't...
posted by fet at 7:51 PM on November 18, 2005


Is that Joe Isuzu?
posted by Coda at 7:51 PM on November 18, 2005


Hayworth: Evoking Declaration of Independence. Now he's digging up newspapers.
posted by ed at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2005


Rep. J.D. Hayworth, straight from Central Casting....

(seriously. Isn't that Leon Rippy up there?)
posted by kalimac at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2005


All due respoct to the soldiers. But who should make polic decisions? The soldiers. No. The Congress.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2005


GOP wants the last word and has right to close. Murtha mystified, "This is his resolution."
posted by ed at 7:53 PM on November 18, 2005


polic = policy
posted by mmahaffie at 7:53 PM on November 18, 2005


fet,

Does this not qualify as an appeal to emotion?

I think it borders on it, but he is a 25 yr veteran of the Marines. So maybe he gets a little slack? I don't know.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:54 PM on November 18, 2005


A bunch of campaign speeches. No one will change his position. Sigh.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005


Murtha again with, you know, actual people in his district.

Talking about billing a disabled soldier.
posted by kalimac at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005


Murtha: The gentleman from California has the right to close...it's his resolution.

Says it all right there.
posted by edverb at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005


kalimac: But, but... THE EARS OF STEVE BUYER'S HEART DO NOT LIE!
posted by Coda at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005


I don't think it's going to change any GOP votes, and I don't think Murtha does either, but maybe he just needs to vent.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:56 PM on November 18, 2005


curmudgeon: they're all politicians, so it's not like we could expect any sort of useful, reasoned debate. It's just depressing.
posted by fet at 7:56 PM on November 18, 2005


damned hearts with ears. Always gettin in the way, dadgummit.

(thank you for the laugh of the night!)
posted by kalimac at 7:57 PM on November 18, 2005


Probably not, curmudgeon. But I imagine that some of this stuff might be dug up during the midterm elections.

Is Buyer up for reelection in 2006? Because "the ears of my heart" is priceless.
posted by ed at 7:57 PM on November 18, 2005


Wait, this is sweeps week, isn't it? Awesome.
posted by Coda at 7:58 PM on November 18, 2005


Our tax dollars at work.
posted by whozyerdaddy at 7:58 PM on November 18, 2005


As to Murtha's friendly fire thing:

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

So, yeah.
posted by fet at 7:58 PM on November 18, 2005


And now, Hunter pulls, out of his...., who? Who? Someone with lots of medals. a real hero..

Yeah? And?
posted by mmahaffie at 7:59 PM on November 18, 2005


Last GOP speaker: Sam Johnson
posted by ed at 7:59 PM on November 18, 2005


Dueling veterans. Dueling I'm more patriotic than you. dueling I suffered more for my country.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:59 PM on November 18, 2005


"Our guys have more medals than yoooooooooooouuuur guys, neener neener neener"
posted by leapingsheep at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2005


Yup, Buyer up for reelection in 2006.
posted by ed at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2005


Interesting: all the appeals back to Vietnam.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2005


Sam Johnson: Withdrawl could hurt our misson.

Oh snap.
posted by Coda at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2005


Flag-waving. Military rah rah from Sam Johnson.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005


Vietnam was probably the biggest wound this country ever suffered, psychically, outside of the Civil War. It's not surprising that all military actions since reference back to it.
posted by fet at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005


Yo, Sam, maybe you might've giving them armor in the first place? You think that might've supported them?

The words he says, they are in English, but they don't make sense....
posted by kalimac at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005


we "must stand behind our men and women in uniform..." yeah well, well behind. Back here in DC. You gwan ahead and fight.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005


"We're making great progress in Iraq"
posted by mmahaffie at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005


Is Buyer up for reelection in 2006?

Every House member is up every two years. So yes.
posted by edverb at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005


Blue fingers! Blue fingers!
posted by mmahaffie at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005


Johnson: Al Jazeera. The withdrawal story's on the front page. Mr. Speaker, we're making great progress in Iraq.

Tin foil hat, Sam. Tin foil hat.
posted by ed at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005


Oh NOES!!! Purple Fingers!!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005


Why do the republicans keep referring to our pulling out of Vietnam as a bad thing? That fucking war would still be going on now if these idiots were in charge back then.
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005


yeah, that Iraq election. But that ended so well! Look, they're...already...independent. Huh.
posted by kalimac at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005


They all keep bringing up Vietnam... This whole thing is so confusing to me! Vietnam's not looking so bad today... the worst thing going on is Gary Glitter on the run for keeping an underage girl.
posted by anthill at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005


Everything the Repubs are saying is propped up by a false dichotomy. Somebody's got to kick it away.
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:04 PM on November 18, 2005


"Our work is paying off. Not just at the ballot box."

A Diebold moment of truth?
posted by ed at 8:04 PM on November 18, 2005


Wow. Rep. Johnson says we're doing great in Iraq! What was I worried about. I can go to bed now.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:04 PM on November 18, 2005


I thought bin Laden was the head of Al Quaeda? Oh yeah, we forgot about him....
posted by afx114 at 8:05 PM on November 18, 2005


Johnson has pronounced "al Qaeda" about six different ways.
posted by ed at 8:05 PM on November 18, 2005


Sam Johnson: Won't anyone think of the children?
posted by Coda at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005


Why is he talking about al quida? If we get out of Iraq, AQ will be on mian street? Wtf
posted by mmahaffie at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005


afx114 - Bin Laden is against FREEEEEEEEEDOM. So we ignore him - didn't you remember?
posted by kalimac at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005


Qaeda? Really.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005


Peaceniks? Did he really say that?
posted by mmahaffie at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005


edverb: Thanks. Too drunk to remember basic facts. :)
posted by ed at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005


PEACENIKS! HE SAID PEACENIKS!
posted by Coda at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005


yes. Yes he did. I don't think I've heard "peacenik" since I was eight.
posted by kalimac at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005


Peaceniks! Hippies!

GOD DAMN LONGHAIRS!
posted by fet at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005


Everyone finish their drink!
posted by Coda at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005


Jeebus! He saluted!
posted by mmahaffie at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005


whozyerdaddy ,

Our tax dollars at work.

Oh come on. I'd be a registered nihilist if I cared enough to send in the form, and even I find this encouraging.

For my tax dollar, I think hot air is a better value than the 5 years of smoke that's been blown up our collective asses.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005


"global war on terrorism" = applause? You'd think they could come up with better boiler plate for the applause machines.
posted by ed at 8:08 PM on November 18, 2005


[krove@samjohnson ~]# cat talkingpoints/gop/*.txt
posted by Vetinari at 8:08 PM on November 18, 2005


Hey Ma! I'm a Peacenik!
posted by mmahaffie at 8:08 PM on November 18, 2005


Vote! Vote! Vote!
posted by fet at 8:08 PM on November 18, 2005


Ok...the vote!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:08 PM on November 18, 2005


And we're off!
posted by Inkoate at 8:08 PM on November 18, 2005


Republicans insist on recorded vote.
posted by ed at 8:09 PM on November 18, 2005


One Dem has voted FOR immediate withdrawl! Balls. I like that.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:09 PM on November 18, 2005


I have to wait 15 minutes????

*drinks faster*
posted by kalimac at 8:09 PM on November 18, 2005


Awww..... awwww....
posted by Coda at 8:09 PM on November 18, 2005


Someone voted yes. Heh.
posted by fet at 8:09 PM on November 18, 2005


A Republican too.
posted by ed at 8:10 PM on November 18, 2005


Two Democrats!
posted by ed at 8:10 PM on November 18, 2005


dammit, I can't see it on the streamed screen.

also, "Hey Ma, I'm a peacenik!" is my new phrase of choice.
posted by kalimac at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005


I am shocked... shocked that this is not going to pass.
posted by fet at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005


Pathetic, the Democrats should have just voted Present, a refusal to participate in the theatrics would have been a better move.

I wish they wouldn't take calls from people durring these votes, it just illustrates ignorance.
posted by splatta at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005



I wish they wouldn't take calls from people durring these votes, it just illustrates ignorance.


Mute is your friend.
posted by Inkoate at 8:12 PM on November 18, 2005


Why has CSpan turned into a bad radio call in show?
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:12 PM on November 18, 2005


This has been interesing. If politics actually does give you a chance to speak from your heart sometimes, as Murtha appears to have been doing, it may be worth my while some day.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:14 PM on November 18, 2005


Jesus, they've got some freaks calling in.
posted by ed at 8:14 PM on November 18, 2005


Since when did CSpan take callers?
posted by kalimac at 8:15 PM on November 18, 2005


107 representatives, both Repub and Demo, have put in no vote.
posted by ed at 8:16 PM on November 18, 2005


5 Demos voting Present.
posted by ed at 8:16 PM on November 18, 2005


mmahaffie - I think that's the only reason an old roommate is going into politics. There's still that spark of hope...

(granted, he's looking at a more local level. But it's nice, to see people actually talking about what they believe.)
posted by kalimac at 8:16 PM on November 18, 2005


It might be best to think of the people who would call into CSPAN as freaks no matter which side of the debate they're on.
posted by splatta at 8:16 PM on November 18, 2005


...Pathetic, the Democrats should have just voted Present...

Yeah. I was a little unclear on that myself. Are there only five Democrats who know the House Rules, or what?
posted by Vetinari at 8:17 PM on November 18, 2005


I'd like to know which three voted yes.
posted by ed at 8:18 PM on November 18, 2005


Jesus, they've got some freaks calling in.

and I can't get through...busy, busy, busy. These people must get all that practice with QVC.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:18 PM on November 18, 2005


Vetinari - dude, you might not be far off.

I forget, sometimes, how stupid the general public is (referring to the callers).
posted by kalimac at 8:19 PM on November 18, 2005


I'd like to know which Republican voted yes.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:19 PM on November 18, 2005


Johnson implied that American troops would literally be left in Iraq with no way to get home.

Texas, sincerely--WTF?

Murtha wins.
posted by bardic at 8:19 PM on November 18, 2005


Apparently, one caller wants the Democrats to go to France.
posted by ed at 8:20 PM on November 18, 2005


These people are real! All the Democrats need to go to France, apparently, like the wimps they are!
posted by anthill at 8:20 PM on November 18, 2005


Robert Wesler, Jose Saranto, Don Linder (R) -- three votes.
posted by ed at 8:20 PM on November 18, 2005


Yes.
posted by ed at 8:21 PM on November 18, 2005


re: CSPAN call-in. I can't even get in on the "Others" line...jebus.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:22 PM on November 18, 2005


Curmudgeon: I tried too. No luck here either. Drink up.
posted by ed at 8:23 PM on November 18, 2005


Times up. Shush the damn callers.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:23 PM on November 18, 2005


Why are the lines: 1) Dems, 2) BUSH SUPPORTERS 3) Others?

Can't you be a Republican and NOT a Bush supporter? Does Cspan just assume they all drink the kool-aid?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:24 PM on November 18, 2005


um - is this still going? does anyone have a link for streaming video?
posted by stenseng at 8:24 PM on November 18, 2005


Total of 4 votes for yea, six Demos voting present.
posted by ed at 8:25 PM on November 18, 2005


stenseng - www.cspan.org streams it.
posted by kalimac at 8:25 PM on November 18, 2005


Well that was a lot like the Janet Jackson nipple slip during the Super Bowl -- initially a bit titillating, but overall fairly crass and repugnant.
posted by fet at 8:26 PM on November 18, 2005


curmudgeon: It's actually an episode of Lost.
posted by ed at 8:26 PM on November 18, 2005


It's over. Now it's time for some drinks and hookers! It's Friday night people, let's vote and go home.
posted by anthill at 8:26 PM on November 18, 2005


another Demo voted yes! Total of five votes.
posted by ed at 8:26 PM on November 18, 2005


Wait, now they are changing their cotes. I hate congress sometimes....
posted by mmahaffie at 8:27 PM on November 18, 2005


Wait a sec, what happened to the two GOP yea votes?
posted by ed at 8:27 PM on November 18, 2005


curmudgeon: It's actually an episode of Lost.

From your lips, to the ears of God's heart!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:27 PM on November 18, 2005


cotes=votes and late=bad typing
posted by mmahaffie at 8:28 PM on November 18, 2005


Bullshit debate followed by a vote on a sham resolution. I haven't been this disenfranchised since student council.
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:28 PM on November 18, 2005


I like how, when CSPAN isn't taking callers, and there's no action on the floor...the station is, like, DEAD SILENT...couldn't they play some frickin' lounge music or something?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005


heh. this is why politics is my Monday Night Football.

*takes another slug of Cuba Libre*
posted by kalimac at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005


Yea, seriously, what happened to the 2 Republican 'Yea' votes? Did Maxwell's silver hammer come down upon their heads?
posted by anthill at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005


My tax dollars are paying for this government, Democrat and Republican alike.

I want a refund.
posted by fet
amen.
posted by nola at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005


Odd. The stream on cspan.com does not match the CSpan I get on canle....
posted by mmahaffie at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005


sock puppet,

man, you guys are hard to please. What? You want a representative Democracy or something? Go to Iraq, Frenchy!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:30 PM on November 18, 2005


i'll see your cuba libre , and raise you johnnie walker red (taken neat)
posted by nola at 8:31 PM on November 18, 2005


Ah. Streaming delay of about 30 seconds on-line.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:32 PM on November 18, 2005


Bacardi straight, man. Drink up.
posted by ed at 8:32 PM on November 18, 2005


Mmm.

Next time our gov't implodes, someone let me know so I can blow a load of cash on good whisky?

(Metafilter's new cookbook: Drinks to watch CSPAN by)
posted by kalimac at 8:33 PM on November 18, 2005


Robert Wesler, Jose Saranto -- the two waffling Republicans.
posted by ed at 8:34 PM on November 18, 2005


And... we move on to other business. I think they should have a fistfight to close it out.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:34 PM on November 18, 2005


this is what you need then.
posted by nola at 8:34 PM on November 18, 2005


Booooo. Good night.
posted by leapingsheep at 8:35 PM on November 18, 2005


Oh. And the Clerk resigned. Good day to go.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:35 PM on November 18, 2005


A clerk has resigned, if anyone cares.
posted by ed at 8:35 PM on November 18, 2005


Dr Phil appears to the be the clerk
posted by kalimac at 8:36 PM on November 18, 2005


Oooh.. Oooh. He announced a new clek. KAren Hoss (sp?). Welcome Ms. Karen!
posted by mmahaffie at 8:36 PM on November 18, 2005


"I, the Clerk, can no longer take my job seriously, in light of the ridiculous timbre of current House procedures. Piss off and eat my shorts."
posted by ed at 8:36 PM on November 18, 2005


foxy.
posted by nola at 8:37 PM on November 18, 2005


This was the only way he could get anyone in the world to watch him resign.
posted by kalimac at 8:38 PM on November 18, 2005


Served by grand jury subpoena! Turns out the Clerk isn't exactly a golden boy.
posted by ed at 8:39 PM on November 18, 2005


Now I try to sleep. Goodnight to all the MeFites who sat trhough this circus this evening. You made it easier to take.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:41 PM on November 18, 2005


nola - bless :) cheaper than the Oban I had planned for a party tomorrow.
posted by kalimac at 8:41 PM on November 18, 2005


Yes, fantastic thread. I kiss you all.
posted by ed at 8:41 PM on November 18, 2005


agreed, this rocked. The best way to watch this all go down :)
posted by kalimac at 8:42 PM on November 18, 2005


i do what i can.
posted by nola at 8:43 PM on November 18, 2005


It's heating up again--a Rep. from AZ is accusing Democrats of hating the troops.

He is "desperately worried" about this. Cunt.
posted by bardic at 8:44 PM on November 18, 2005


Peaceniks for moving to France!
posted by kalimac at 8:44 PM on November 18, 2005


Here is a handy form letter you can send to your Republican representative:

Representative _______,

If you want to waste our money on loud, obnoxious entertainment, please buy the President a monster truck.

Thanks In Advance,
Tacos
posted by I Love Tacos at 8:45 PM on November 18, 2005


This isn't debate, now. This is where they ask for time to speak to what turns out to be an empty house. It gets on CSpan and they can use it later. Grandstanding. Not worth our time

G'Nite!
posted by mmahaffie at 8:45 PM on November 18, 2005


SEPTEMBER 11TH TERRORISTS MURDER SCARY WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA BLEAH



what a slimebag.
posted by stenseng at 8:46 PM on November 18, 2005


Aaaand there's the 9-11 reference!
posted by kalimac at 8:47 PM on November 18, 2005


Damn. Jim McDermott got old when I wasn't looking.
posted by stenseng at 8:50 PM on November 18, 2005


What the hell is McDermott going on about?
posted by 2sheets at 8:52 PM on November 18, 2005


its almost like what goes on in our country is our business.
i like our representatives , will be "getting behind our troops" by takin' 'er easy, and going to bed in a warm and safe bed.
posted by nola at 8:53 PM on November 18, 2005


These Arabs, are they musical?

McDermott sounds like an idiot.
posted by bardic at 8:54 PM on November 18, 2005


A warm and safe bed filled with hookers!

Thank you all for an entertaining evening. Stay safe and drink lots of water.
posted by anthill at 9:00 PM on November 18, 2005


Stay safe and drink lots of water.

Commie!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 9:04 PM on November 18, 2005


Wow. That was exciting.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:12 PM on November 18, 2005


Those voting yes on the resolution were Democrats Jose E. Serrano (N.Y.), Robert Wexler (Fla.) and Cynthia McKinney (Ga.).
posted by kirkaracha at 10:20 PM on November 18, 2005


Speaking of withdrawing from Iraq:
The top U.S. commander in Iraq has submitted a plan to the Pentagon for withdrawing troops in Iraq, according to a senior defense official.
Why do the troops hate the troops?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 PM on November 18, 2005


Wow guys, no better recap could there be than this thread. I missed the whole thing as my PBR cajoled me to sleep at 10 on a Friday night. You, sirs and madams, do a Great Serivce to our Nation.
posted by moonbird at 5:24 AM on November 19, 2005


Hmm...

Murtha's plan was for a withdrawal over the next six months, dependent on the safety of the troops, with Marine ready force nearby. It was called "cut and run" by its opponents.

This Pentagon plan, drafted by Casey, calls for significant withdrawals starting early next year. It sounds like Rumsfeld is on board with it, too.

Aside from the blatant hypocrisy of what just happenedin the House of Reps last night, when the Admin backs the Pentagon's plan, won't they essentially be implementing a proposal very similar to what Murtha was calling for?

And if so, then haven't the Dems won big on this issue, by getting out ahead of it and being the ones to champion a withdrawal in 2006?

If we withdraw in a timely way next year, the Dems will be seen as the ones whose leadership and aggressive proactivity brought it to pass and Murtha will look like a hero. If we don't withdraw, the Republicans will be seen as the ones counter to prevailing public sentiment, and Murtha will look like a prophet.

I'm not sure that this little bit of political theatre conjured up by the Republicans in the House is going to turn out like they'd hoped...
posted by darkstar at 5:27 AM on November 19, 2005


Of course, right wing bloggers think the whole thing was an example of Democrat perfidy... Here's an example from my neck of the woods. Feel free to post comments correcting this guy...
posted by mmahaffie at 5:50 AM on November 19, 2005


Feel free to post comments correcting this guy...

Just did...second comment down!
posted by darkstar at 6:09 AM on November 19, 2005


And so it begins.
From Fox News:


'Worth Our Sacrifice'
Bush rejects pullout from Iraq
Speaking in South Korea before heading to China,
Pres. Bush defends his war policies and says early withdrawal would be a mistake
Related Stories
Congress Rejects Iraq Exit Bill
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:16 AM on November 19, 2005


darkstar, cool. Very well put!
posted by mmahaffie at 6:18 AM on November 19, 2005


"severe penalties for early withdrawal". fuckers even talk like bankers.
posted by quonsar at 6:59 AM on November 19, 2005


I listened to the debate last night and would have posted something here, but I was too busy cowering from THE ENEMY.
posted by cillit bang at 7:21 AM on November 19, 2005


Good. Moronic sub-debate over. And so the downward spiral of the Left continues.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:33 AM on November 19, 2005


PP: As a Republican, I personally find your rhetoric to be singularly unconstructive.
posted by darkstar at 7:45 AM on November 19, 2005


Just keep smiling and clapping, PP.

The fact that the country is turning away from your position, quickly, must really chap your ass.
posted by Cycloptichorn at 7:46 AM on November 19, 2005


Good. Moronic sub-debate over. And so the downward spiral of the Left continues.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:33 AM PST on November 19


If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:57 AM PST on April 29


Stop posting.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:49 AM on November 19, 2005


Darkstar, sorry to hear that. I try to talk on Metafilter on the level of the dialog. Then again, I'm not a Republican, so I shouldn't be speaking for you in the first place.

Actually, the country is not turning away from "my position." Cutting and running is not a viable position, except if you are of the pacifist Left (or, perhaps, French). One can even disagree with me that going into Iraq was not a good idea, but even then, cutting and running is still an insane, frightening position.

The Democrats are now an intellectually bankrupt ensemble of politicians, many of whom should just retire (and to some extent, voters). They have no ideas. Will John Kerry run again? Gee, I hope so...
posted by ParisParamus at 7:56 AM on November 19, 2005


Just stop giving him attention. For fucks sake people.
posted by my sock puppet account at 7:57 AM on November 19, 2005


Sorry
posted by Cycloptichorn at 7:59 AM on November 19, 2005


cutting and running is still an insane, frightening position.

"cutting and running" is an execrable sophistry, as is "insane, frightening". smart people don't fall for it.
posted by quonsar at 8:27 AM on November 19, 2005


I was disappointed to see the Murtha story below the fold of my local paper (WaPo). Then again, they had to make room for Fitzgerald getting another grand jury and another Abramoff associate bein charged. Good times.
posted by bardic at 8:40 AM on November 19, 2005


God, PP is like a parody of a parody of a parody...of himself.

Cycloptichorn: The fact that the country is turning away from your position, quickly, must really chap your ass.

Well, according to PP's historic post (kindly provided by Optimus Chyme)...the country is apparently turning towards his position.

But that hasn't stopped him from moving the goalposts anyhow. What a coward.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:50 AM on November 19, 2005


In any event, I must say that watching CSPAN last night was a real thrill. I read reports today that congressional veterans called it one of the most visceral and animated exchanges they'd ever seen.

Getting a little "House-of-Commons-ish" and all...
posted by darkstar at 9:09 AM on November 19, 2005


The only thing embarrassing about the Democrats is that they voted for the war in the first place. People look at the situation and think the Democrats don't have backbones. Wrong. Democrats are merely the same as Republicans. On the major, important issues, they all vote the same while grandstanding on trivial differences.
posted by fleener at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2005




going down so very damn long, that it looks like up,to me..
posted by hortense at 9:55 AM on November 19, 2005


Bush: his sober judgment says stay in Iraq--... His war policies under siege at home, President Bush said Saturday there would be no early troop withdrawal because "sober judgment" must prevail over emotional calls to end the military mission before Iraq is stabilized. ...
posted by amberglow at 10:10 AM on November 19, 2005


Does that mean when Bush gets wicked drunk that he starts to say we should cut and run or that we need to nuke the place off the face of the earth? I guess it depends on the type of drunk he is.
posted by my sock puppet account at 10:25 AM on November 19, 2005


he's the mean, evil kind of drunk, i think. And of course, he's always lying so we'll see--i know the GOP in Congress desperately need something to change before the 06 elections.

GOP Lawmakers Float Ethics Probe of Murtha
posted by amberglow at 10:38 AM on November 19, 2005


fafblog: ...The only thing to do is for America to stay the course and remain in Iraq for the next five to twelvezenteen years, until either our resources are depleted or we have been chased from the roof of the American embassy in the middle of a full-blown civil war. That is the kind of blood-curdling, explosively crippling losingdom that terrorists can stand back and admire!

Because when America loses, America loses victoriously! The key is to lose with honor. ...

posted by amberglow at 11:32 AM on November 19, 2005


"Sorry, George, I'm In the Majority ...from Michael Moore
Dear Mr. Bush:

I would like to extend my hand and invite you to join us, the mainstream American majority. We, the people -- that's the majority of the people -- share these majority opinions:
1. Going to war was a mistake -- a big mistake. (link)

2. You and your administration misled us into this war. (link)

3. We want the war ended and our troops brought home. (link)

4. We don't trust you. (link)
Now, I know this is a bitter pill to swallow. Iraq was going to be your great legacy. Now, it's just your legacy. It didn't have to end up this way."
More Moore ...
posted by ericb at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2005


Has anyone found video of the floor fight? I've been checking cspan and no luck.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:42 PM on November 19, 2005


Video of Rep. Jean Schmidt (Quicktime)
posted by ericb at 1:03 PM on November 19, 2005


Video of Rep. John Murtha - clip 1, 2, 3, 4 (.wmv)
posted by ericb at 1:08 PM on November 19, 2005


CNN vote: 85% for pullout within 6 months.
posted by ericb at 1:30 PM on November 19, 2005


Jean Shmit is ugly. So un-hot that's so unhot it's like -4° kelven.
posted by Paris Hilton at 2:41 PM on November 19, 2005


Paris Hilton's vocabulary doesn't contain the word "fiasco". Nor "Kelvin", however spelt. You are a sub-par pup socket. "Sub-par". Look it up. In a "dictionary".
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:24 PM on November 19, 2005


CNN vote: 85% for pullout within 6 months.

Which is exactly what Murtha was calling for in his original resolution. Seems he represents the overwhelming majority of Americans on this...
posted by darkstar at 3:48 PM on November 19, 2005


mek wins
posted by mek at 8:16 PM CST on November 18 [!]"

posted by HyperBlue at 4:01 PM on November 19, 2005


We should just let the Iraqi people vote on US troop presence. That should bring out the Sunnis!

For good measure, we can round up all of the Diebold machines in use here and send them to Iraq for the vote. That way we are assured of being voted out, and we can finally leave with honor.

And the Iraqi people will learn how much freedom rocks!
posted by halcyon_daze at 4:19 PM on November 19, 2005


We should just let the Iraqi people vote on US troop presence.

No need to rely on Diebold machines --

A secret poll commissioned by the British Ministry of Defence examining Iraqi attitudes reveals:
• 82% are 'strongly opposed' to the presence of coalition troops

• 72% do not have confidence in the multi-national forces

• less than 1% of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security

• 67% of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation

• 43% of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened

• 45% of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65% in the British-controlled Maysan province
[Sunday Telegraph | October 23, 2005]
posted by ericb at 5:16 PM on November 19, 2005


Vice President Cheney on 'Meet the Press' -- Sunday, September 14, 2003
DICK CHENEY: "... I really do believe we will be greeted as liberators...." [videotape of Cheney speaking on March 16, 2003]

TIM RUSSERT: "We have not been greeted as liberators."

DICK CHENEY: "Well, I think we have by most Iraqis. I think the majority of Iraqis are thankful for the fact that the United States is there...you’ll find that, for the most part, a majority of Iraqis support what we did....I mean, if you go out and look at what’s happening on the ground, you’ll find that there is widespread support."

--------------------

TIM RUSSERT: "But is there a connection [between Saddam Hussein and the September 11 attacks]?"

DICK CHENEY: "We don’t know...."

---------------------

DICK CHENEY: "And what we’ve been able to accomplish...[is] what I think has been fairly significant success in terms of putting Iraq back together again..."
And now two-years later we find in the recent British poll of Iraqi citizens:
"Immediately after the war the coalition embarked on a campaign of reconstruction in which it hoped to improve the electricity supply and the quality of drinking water.

That appears to have failed, with the poll showing that 71 per cent of people rarely get safe clean water, 47 per cent never have enough electricity, 70 per cent say their sewerage system rarely works and 40 per cent of southern Iraqis are unemployed."
posted by ericb at 5:44 PM on November 19, 2005


The more I read about this, the more I have to marvel at it.

Our government is run by children. Children!

If only there was a way to send them all to boot camp.
posted by fungible at 7:21 PM on November 19, 2005




More Americans want out of Iraq now, than wanted out of Vietnam in 1970. “A USA Today/CNN/Gallup survey last week found that the percentage (52) of Americans who want to get out of Iraq fast, in 12 months or less, is even larger than the percentage (48) that favored a quick withdrawal from Vietnam when that war’s casualty toll neared 54,000 in the apocalyptic year of 1970,” reports Frank Rich.
posted by ericb at 10:18 PM on November 19, 2005


FOX News screencap of Schmidt ; >
posted by amberglow at 10:29 PM on November 19, 2005


Wow, Murtha is the man.

Murtha '08, baby.
posted by bshort at 11:32 AM on November 21, 2005


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