Ron Kovic on returning vets
January 20, 2006 6:58 AM Subscribe
Ron Kovic writes about returning wounded vets There are things here you can never forget, images and sounds and smells that you will never see on TV or read about in the newspapers.
War is Hell: Pictures at 11.
See, he's asking people to empathise with pain, suffering and mutilation. What an optimist! Sorry Ron, I'm saving most of my empathy - and sympathy - for the people who suffered the pain and trauma you describe at the hands of the illegal invaders you're fretting about. Sorry if my perspective's all out of whack there, dude. I guess I'm just one twisted son of a bitch to care more about the victims of these soldiers than the soldiers themselves. Maybe I'll get around to feeling some sympathy for them when they stop being the willing tools of a bunch of murderous war criminals. Oh wait - that won't happen will it? There are college courses to be paid for! There's crippling US poverty to be escaped!
posted by Decani at 7:14 AM on January 20, 2006
See, he's asking people to empathise with pain, suffering and mutilation. What an optimist! Sorry Ron, I'm saving most of my empathy - and sympathy - for the people who suffered the pain and trauma you describe at the hands of the illegal invaders you're fretting about. Sorry if my perspective's all out of whack there, dude. I guess I'm just one twisted son of a bitch to care more about the victims of these soldiers than the soldiers themselves. Maybe I'll get around to feeling some sympathy for them when they stop being the willing tools of a bunch of murderous war criminals. Oh wait - that won't happen will it? There are college courses to be paid for! There's crippling US poverty to be escaped!
posted by Decani at 7:14 AM on January 20, 2006
Maybe I'll get around to feeling some sympathy for them when they stop being the willing tools of a bunch of murderous war criminals.
That's true: we don't have a draft, do we?
posted by Rothko at 7:17 AM on January 20, 2006
That's true: we don't have a draft, do we?
posted by Rothko at 7:17 AM on January 20, 2006
Sorry if my perspective's all out of whack
It is. Right here: willing tools.
Apology accepted.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:19 AM on January 20, 2006
It is. Right here: willing tools.
Apology accepted.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:19 AM on January 20, 2006
"I guess I'm just one twisted son of a bitch...."
Well, if anyone should know.....
posted by HuronBob at 7:20 AM on January 20, 2006
Well, if anyone should know.....
posted by HuronBob at 7:20 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani's attitude is precisely the problem, then and now.
posted by mcwetboy at 7:20 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by mcwetboy at 7:20 AM on January 20, 2006
That's the guy huh? I'm glad someone wrote about the wounded over there. Seems our administration is only concerned about ameliorating the 2000+ deaths in Iraq; seems it "pales" in comparison to other wars (more idiotic neo-logic). One of the many, 'not talked about' stories in Iraq is the tens of thousands of permanantly wounded that, much like Ron Kovic, will never forget and will always suffer.
I've seen a few twenty-somethings recently with missing limbs, inside I knew it was Iraq. Made me sick.
"The physical and psychological battles from the war in Iraq will rage on for decades, deeply impacting the lives of citizens in both our countries"
Obviously this guy is a subversive. Bush promises were going to 'win' the war on the etherial boogey man called, "terror". And, we are going to bring democracy and Playstations to all the new citizens of our 51st state. This Kovic guy should stop complaining.
posted by j.p. Hung at 7:27 AM on January 20, 2006
I've seen a few twenty-somethings recently with missing limbs, inside I knew it was Iraq. Made me sick.
"The physical and psychological battles from the war in Iraq will rage on for decades, deeply impacting the lives of citizens in both our countries"
Obviously this guy is a subversive. Bush promises were going to 'win' the war on the etherial boogey man called, "terror". And, we are going to bring democracy and Playstations to all the new citizens of our 51st state. This Kovic guy should stop complaining.
posted by j.p. Hung at 7:27 AM on January 20, 2006
"Sorry if my perspective's all out of whack there, dude."
A little? There's an understatement.
posted by j.p. Hung at 7:30 AM on January 20, 2006
A little? There's an understatement.
posted by j.p. Hung at 7:30 AM on January 20, 2006
I hold equal sympathies for both the soldier and the innocent victims. Death and injury is needless on both sides.
I don't blame the soldier, I blame their commander-in-chief. Certainly, some soldiers are doing trulely sadisctic and cruel shit on their own, but it still is their commander-in-chief that is ultimately accountable.
posted by birdherder at 7:30 AM on January 20, 2006
I don't blame the soldier, I blame their commander-in-chief. Certainly, some soldiers are doing trulely sadisctic and cruel shit on their own, but it still is their commander-in-chief that is ultimately accountable.
posted by birdherder at 7:30 AM on January 20, 2006
Having met the guy a few times, I'll listen to anything he has to say. He's a really decent fellow.
posted by LondonYank at 7:35 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by LondonYank at 7:35 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani, did you actually read the article? That's the only explanation I can imagine for your comments.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 7:38 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by GhostintheMachine at 7:38 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani's attitude is precisely the problem, then and now.
Definitely. I make the attitudes of George Bush's crew and those of knee-jerk troop supporters look like brilliant solutions, don't I?
Decani, did you actually read the article? That's the only explanation I can imagine for your comments.
Yes, I actually did, and you correctly spotted that my reading it was the explanation for my comments.
posted by Decani at 8:02 AM on January 20, 2006
Definitely. I make the attitudes of George Bush's crew and those of knee-jerk troop supporters look like brilliant solutions, don't I?
Decani, did you actually read the article? That's the only explanation I can imagine for your comments.
Yes, I actually did, and you correctly spotted that my reading it was the explanation for my comments.
posted by Decani at 8:02 AM on January 20, 2006
I don't blame the soldier, I blame their commander-in-chief
Or, "They were only obeying orders..."
Talk about problem attitudes. No. We are all ultimately responsible for what we do. Ourselves. Us. All of us. If you hand over your moral decision-making to another, that's a moral decision you made right there; you are responsible for it and you are responsible for the consequences of it.
Stop trying to excuse people for their decisions and actions. Because by hell, that is the problem here. And elsewhere.
posted by Decani at 8:06 AM on January 20, 2006
Or, "They were only obeying orders..."
Talk about problem attitudes. No. We are all ultimately responsible for what we do. Ourselves. Us. All of us. If you hand over your moral decision-making to another, that's a moral decision you made right there; you are responsible for it and you are responsible for the consequences of it.
Stop trying to excuse people for their decisions and actions. Because by hell, that is the problem here. And elsewhere.
posted by Decani at 8:06 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani, I understand that there certainly isn't enough coverage for the non-'merican dead and wounded, but by flaming other victims (certainly less innocent I admit) what is the point? This is pointing out some of the rank hypocrisy of those who put the support our troops ribbons out, but insist that the war can only be won by sending more troops into the meat grinder. I think maybe you would have been able to make you point without sounding like such a troll and perhaps actually have a chance to change someone's opinion in your favor instead of turning people away.
posted by Numenorian at 8:09 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by Numenorian at 8:09 AM on January 20, 2006
Complaints about soldiers give marvelous ammo to the right wing, who will be spinning "vets were spit on when they came home" stories about this war for years.
Never mind that most people who are anti-war are certainly pro-troops. You really can't blame someone who is poor and wants to get ahead via one of the only tools available for economic mobility in this country, but is then forced into an ill-conceived war by a corrupt administration.
Sure, they could refuse to fight the war, and some do, at considerable personal risk. Most try to do their best, and many, like Kovic, return from their war to become an antiwar activist.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:10 AM on January 20, 2006
Never mind that most people who are anti-war are certainly pro-troops. You really can't blame someone who is poor and wants to get ahead via one of the only tools available for economic mobility in this country, but is then forced into an ill-conceived war by a corrupt administration.
Sure, they could refuse to fight the war, and some do, at considerable personal risk. Most try to do their best, and many, like Kovic, return from their war to become an antiwar activist.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:10 AM on January 20, 2006
Speaking of understatement -- a very understated presentation, Mr. Kovic's making. And more powerful for that.
Decani, of course, if no one went, there'd be no war. But you're a fool if you think it's that simple. If no one goes to Iraq, why should any of them go anywhere? How do we make them go to Liberia, or the Sudan, or Kosovo?
If we are to keep dogs of war, we ought not whip them for getting hurt while obeying orders. That would be mere sadism, even as one dressed it up as pacifism.
And if we are not to keep dogs of war -- well, then, that's another discussion for another time. It's an arguable view -- but not a workable one, and one that ought to be admitted, and not hidden behind other arguments.
posted by lodurr at 8:15 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani, of course, if no one went, there'd be no war. But you're a fool if you think it's that simple. If no one goes to Iraq, why should any of them go anywhere? How do we make them go to Liberia, or the Sudan, or Kosovo?
If we are to keep dogs of war, we ought not whip them for getting hurt while obeying orders. That would be mere sadism, even as one dressed it up as pacifism.
And if we are not to keep dogs of war -- well, then, that's another discussion for another time. It's an arguable view -- but not a workable one, and one that ought to be admitted, and not hidden behind other arguments.
posted by lodurr at 8:15 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani, also I might add that perhaps the point here is to find something to help break up the power base that made the decision to go to war. Right or wrong, most folks tend to like a moderate voice. It's easy to be shrill and say that is what the fundies do or that is what the tree hugging liberals do. Why not start with helping folks break down the wall of lies by starting with an upper level brick (support our troops) and then work on the lower bricks (war in Iraq is right)?
posted by Numenorian at 8:15 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by Numenorian at 8:15 AM on January 20, 2006
Complaints about soldiers give marvelous ammo to the right wing, who will be spinning "vets were spit on when they came home" stories about this war for years.
That's not as cut-and-dried as they'd have you believe.
I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying it's a source of much debate, and would unlikely be an argument from the right because of said debate.
This is pointing out some of the rank hypocrisy of those who put the support our troops ribbons out, but insist that the war can only be won by sending more troops into the meat grinder.
Kinda makes you wonder how much of the ribbon-flying is motivated by sheer guilt from the memory of Vietnam.
On preview - well said, lodurr.
posted by TeamBilly at 8:29 AM on January 20, 2006
That's not as cut-and-dried as they'd have you believe.
I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying it's a source of much debate, and would unlikely be an argument from the right because of said debate.
This is pointing out some of the rank hypocrisy of those who put the support our troops ribbons out, but insist that the war can only be won by sending more troops into the meat grinder.
Kinda makes you wonder how much of the ribbon-flying is motivated by sheer guilt from the memory of Vietnam.
On preview - well said, lodurr.
posted by TeamBilly at 8:29 AM on January 20, 2006
I think maybe you would have been able to make you point without sounding like such a troll and perhaps actually have a chance to change someone's opinion in your favor instead of turning people away.
Decani's not trying to convince anyone of anything, unless it's how much he cares about one group of people by not caring about another. When GWB stands in front of soldiers to deliever a speech, he's using them as props. This is the same thing.
I'm guessing that much like myself, Decani's never lived in a place where he needed, relied on or even hoped for some "willing tool" to keep the bad people at bay. Yeah, I know that's a simplistic statement. But it would be equally simplistic to pretend such places never existed and won't exist again. And that 18 year-old kid you just chewed out for putting pickles on your Whopper can't go from zero to warrior in 3.5 seconds.
On preview:
If we are to keep dogs of war, we ought not whip them for getting hurt while obeying orders. That would be mere sadism, even as one dressed it up as pacifism.
lodurr says it better.
posted by Cyrano at 8:33 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani's not trying to convince anyone of anything, unless it's how much he cares about one group of people by not caring about another. When GWB stands in front of soldiers to deliever a speech, he's using them as props. This is the same thing.
I'm guessing that much like myself, Decani's never lived in a place where he needed, relied on or even hoped for some "willing tool" to keep the bad people at bay. Yeah, I know that's a simplistic statement. But it would be equally simplistic to pretend such places never existed and won't exist again. And that 18 year-old kid you just chewed out for putting pickles on your Whopper can't go from zero to warrior in 3.5 seconds.
On preview:
If we are to keep dogs of war, we ought not whip them for getting hurt while obeying orders. That would be mere sadism, even as one dressed it up as pacifism.
lodurr says it better.
posted by Cyrano at 8:33 AM on January 20, 2006
I'd like to get a hold of W, Cheney and Rumsfeld (and a few others) and make each of them read this out loud.
posted by alumshubby at 8:36 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by alumshubby at 8:36 AM on January 20, 2006
Oh, and the comments on that page, too.
posted by alumshubby at 8:38 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by alumshubby at 8:38 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani,
All wars are not immoral, and I for one am glad that men serve in the armed forces, and that they are trained to follow orders, and will fight and die just because their commander orders them to. Once you enlist, you MUST obey the orders of your superiors, its not really an option, plus you have unit loyalty and personal loyalty in play. (Please resist the urge to Godwin here) The fact that our duly (?) elected leaders are liars and fools make the soldier completely not responsible in the big picture, they deserve your support and admiration for the sacrifices that they have made. (\pontification)
posted by sfts2 at 8:48 AM on January 20, 2006
All wars are not immoral, and I for one am glad that men serve in the armed forces, and that they are trained to follow orders, and will fight and die just because their commander orders them to. Once you enlist, you MUST obey the orders of your superiors, its not really an option, plus you have unit loyalty and personal loyalty in play. (Please resist the urge to Godwin here) The fact that our duly (?) elected leaders are liars and fools make the soldier completely not responsible in the big picture, they deserve your support and admiration for the sacrifices that they have made. (\pontification)
posted by sfts2 at 8:48 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani,
Remind us when you need defending. We'll let you do it yourself.
I am so angry that I better stop posting.
posted by konolia at 8:58 AM on January 20, 2006
Remind us when you need defending. We'll let you do it yourself.
I am so angry that I better stop posting.
posted by konolia at 8:58 AM on January 20, 2006
My word, that is one self-righteous crowbar you have implanted up your ass there Decani.
Did you buy it at Wal-Mart?
posted by illiad at 9:08 AM on January 20, 2006
Did you buy it at Wal-Mart?
posted by illiad at 9:08 AM on January 20, 2006
“Oh wait - that won't happen will it?” - posted by Decani
Good thing you’re doing something about it Decani. Good job.
Yeah, those Vietnam draftees, how dare they not be as tremendously brilliant as you obviously are. Apparently Kovic bought into all the lies about God and Country and community service that were around him 24/7. What a sucker! Imagine believing the things people who have a great deal of respect tell you. The real problem is that Kovic speaks the language of the oppressor - English. If only we could somehow be born speaking another language.
Oh, if only we had all read Bertrand Russell and all the the philosophy you have instead of choosing to live in trailers and work at Burger King or choosing to be choir boys and getting raped by priests, or believing in the lies our society tells us.
Clearly we should all intuitively know such things instead of discovering them by experiance.
Much like yourself who was obviously born with such gifts.
Thankfully you’ve posted so many times about the people who suffered the pain and trauma at the hands of the illegal invaders that we all know a great deal about the issue.
“Decani has posted no links to MetaFilter”
...Well, perhaps your saving up that empathy - and sympathy to better uh....do whatever the hell it is you do...
I mean, it’s not like your just going into threads about wounded soldiers all the time and just shitting on them. I’m sure we’re going to see in depth posts about those victims real real soon. Because you’re just a “walk the walk” kinda guy, not just some shithead who feels the need to piss all over someone else’s pain just to feel self-righteous.
Those soldiers are evil because they took a path. They are responsible for believing when they are told that from Cromwell to Audie Murphy military service is an excellent tradition. And striking out down that path - whether they later discover it was wrong, right, whatever - makes them miscreants.
Clearly - by your example of not posting a single fucking link, the proper course is inaction, to lie in wait to discover what the truth is. Of course by then those types of folks are 40 year old cat hoarders living with their mothers.
But y’know, at least they didn’t get their hands dirty learning any truths as opposed to reading what other people had to say about it. And at least they didn’t have to stick their neck out for anything.
But since you prefer (somehow inherant) eruidition to experiance:
“War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” - John Stuart Mill
Oh, and tell me how Decani isn’t spitting on wounded soldiers - please. Enlighten me. (other than he is not actually expelling spittle, I know, I mean as metaphor.) Particularly Kovic who has done more for the anti-war cause than anyone I can think of offhand in the past 20 years.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:26 AM on January 20, 2006
Good thing you’re doing something about it Decani. Good job.
Yeah, those Vietnam draftees, how dare they not be as tremendously brilliant as you obviously are. Apparently Kovic bought into all the lies about God and Country and community service that were around him 24/7. What a sucker! Imagine believing the things people who have a great deal of respect tell you. The real problem is that Kovic speaks the language of the oppressor - English. If only we could somehow be born speaking another language.
Oh, if only we had all read Bertrand Russell and all the the philosophy you have instead of choosing to live in trailers and work at Burger King or choosing to be choir boys and getting raped by priests, or believing in the lies our society tells us.
Clearly we should all intuitively know such things instead of discovering them by experiance.
Much like yourself who was obviously born with such gifts.
Thankfully you’ve posted so many times about the people who suffered the pain and trauma at the hands of the illegal invaders that we all know a great deal about the issue.
“Decani has posted no links to MetaFilter”
...Well, perhaps your saving up that empathy - and sympathy to better uh....do whatever the hell it is you do...
I mean, it’s not like your just going into threads about wounded soldiers all the time and just shitting on them. I’m sure we’re going to see in depth posts about those victims real real soon. Because you’re just a “walk the walk” kinda guy, not just some shithead who feels the need to piss all over someone else’s pain just to feel self-righteous.
Those soldiers are evil because they took a path. They are responsible for believing when they are told that from Cromwell to Audie Murphy military service is an excellent tradition. And striking out down that path - whether they later discover it was wrong, right, whatever - makes them miscreants.
Clearly - by your example of not posting a single fucking link, the proper course is inaction, to lie in wait to discover what the truth is. Of course by then those types of folks are 40 year old cat hoarders living with their mothers.
But y’know, at least they didn’t get their hands dirty learning any truths as opposed to reading what other people had to say about it. And at least they didn’t have to stick their neck out for anything.
But since you prefer (somehow inherant) eruidition to experiance:
“War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” - John Stuart Mill
Oh, and tell me how Decani isn’t spitting on wounded soldiers - please. Enlighten me. (other than he is not actually expelling spittle, I know, I mean as metaphor.) Particularly Kovic who has done more for the anti-war cause than anyone I can think of offhand in the past 20 years.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:26 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani, I really am disappointed that this thread turned out to be about your attitude towards soldiers.
Anyway, you're wrong. Kovic is not asking people to empathize with wounded veterans - he's giving them his own empathy, as only one who has been where they are can do. That you apparently cannot feel anything but righteous anger toward them says a whole lot more about you than them.
Kovic's main thrust is to challenge the very forces that you supposedly hate - those who use military solutions to deal with international differences.
What's worse to you - some 20-year-old kids who allowed themselves to be deluded into becoming cannon fodder, or the power whores who fed them to the guns? It really looks like the former. If it isn't, maybe you can talk about that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:29 AM on January 20, 2006
Anyway, you're wrong. Kovic is not asking people to empathize with wounded veterans - he's giving them his own empathy, as only one who has been where they are can do. That you apparently cannot feel anything but righteous anger toward them says a whole lot more about you than them.
Kovic's main thrust is to challenge the very forces that you supposedly hate - those who use military solutions to deal with international differences.
What's worse to you - some 20-year-old kids who allowed themselves to be deluded into becoming cannon fodder, or the power whores who fed them to the guns? It really looks like the former. If it isn't, maybe you can talk about that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:29 AM on January 20, 2006
It's pretty clear that Decani's stirred up a hornets nest here.
The question is NOT whether we believe soldiers in Iraq are in an unjust, illegal and immoral war.
The question is: do soldiers in Iraq believe they are in an unjust, illegal and immoral war?
If so, then they are consciously commiting war crimes and should be culpable, legally and morally. They should object strongly and refuse to serve, at whatever cost. This applies up the command chain too.
The difficult question is when soldiers sincerely don't think what they are doing is immoral, illegal or unjust - usually the majority of soldiers think like this. Strict liability could never be a standard for soldiers - no matter what the cause, no act of self defense or dimunition of evil by force would ever be acceptable. Culpability has to be the standard here, and in this case culpapbility lies with the top of command chain.
Decani's venom should be reserved for the people that sent these soldiers to do the job, and the few that are "enlightened or aware" enough of the moral wrongness of their actions.
All others are to a greater or lesser extent, victims.
posted by lalochezia at 9:30 AM on January 20, 2006
The question is NOT whether we believe soldiers in Iraq are in an unjust, illegal and immoral war.
The question is: do soldiers in Iraq believe they are in an unjust, illegal and immoral war?
If so, then they are consciously commiting war crimes and should be culpable, legally and morally. They should object strongly and refuse to serve, at whatever cost. This applies up the command chain too.
The difficult question is when soldiers sincerely don't think what they are doing is immoral, illegal or unjust - usually the majority of soldiers think like this. Strict liability could never be a standard for soldiers - no matter what the cause, no act of self defense or dimunition of evil by force would ever be acceptable. Culpability has to be the standard here, and in this case culpapbility lies with the top of command chain.
Decani's venom should be reserved for the people that sent these soldiers to do the job, and the few that are "enlightened or aware" enough of the moral wrongness of their actions.
All others are to a greater or lesser extent, victims.
posted by lalochezia at 9:30 AM on January 20, 2006
Actually, I just came here to mention that back in November the DAV announced that House Veterans’ Affairs Committee Chairman Steve Buyer (R-Ind.) announced that veterans service organizations will no longer have the opportunity to present testimony before a joint hearing of the House and Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committees.
And the silence there is deafening. Those folks just don’t want to hear about it one way or the other. Not only the anti-war side, but the pro-troop side.
The DAV - Disabled American Veterans is dedicated to a single purpose: building better lives for our nation’s disabled veterans and their families (an abhorant disgusting blight on our society as Decani knows) .
But if you did want to get involved somehow (or not) - plenty of links here and
here
posted by Smedleyman at 9:37 AM on January 20, 2006
And the silence there is deafening. Those folks just don’t want to hear about it one way or the other. Not only the anti-war side, but the pro-troop side.
The DAV - Disabled American Veterans is dedicated to a single purpose: building better lives for our nation’s disabled veterans and their families (an abhorant disgusting blight on our society as Decani knows) .
But if you did want to get involved somehow (or not) - plenty of links here and
here
posted by Smedleyman at 9:37 AM on January 20, 2006
Remind us when you need defending. We'll let you do it yourself.
See, now this is why comments like Decani's bother me and why I assumed earlier that he's always had two big oceans between him and the people who would gladly do him harm just because of what it says on his passport (and, Decani, I knew the minute this thread hit the front page that you'd show up with a comment pretty much like the one you posted. Ok, actually I said, "I bet that one guy...his username begins with a "D" shows up and says something I won't like because he always seems to show up with comments like that in threads like this." I think I confuse you with a similar username for a guy who lives in London. Because there is simply no way in hell anyone living in England could have such a justifiable across-the-board anti-solider stance with the Battle of Britain in your last century of collective memory.)
Or maybe you've just moved.
Red Dawn or Amerika isn't going to happen (and does anyone else remember "Amerika?" And when people use that spelling online do you think, "yeah, you think you're all clever and shit, but you're really referencing a Kris Kristofferson mini-series. Dork.) But it seems someone born in a different country needs to show up on your porch with a gun, and unless a 3rd ID soldier stands in their way you're not going to appreciate what they're prepared to do for you.
And again on preview:
Smedleyman, I was hoping you'd show up. Thanks.
posted by Cyrano at 9:38 AM on January 20, 2006
See, now this is why comments like Decani's bother me and why I assumed earlier that he's always had two big oceans between him and the people who would gladly do him harm just because of what it says on his passport (and, Decani, I knew the minute this thread hit the front page that you'd show up with a comment pretty much like the one you posted. Ok, actually I said, "I bet that one guy...his username begins with a "D" shows up and says something I won't like because he always seems to show up with comments like that in threads like this." I think I confuse you with a similar username for a guy who lives in London. Because there is simply no way in hell anyone living in England could have such a justifiable across-the-board anti-solider stance with the Battle of Britain in your last century of collective memory.)
Or maybe you've just moved.
Red Dawn or Amerika isn't going to happen (and does anyone else remember "Amerika?" And when people use that spelling online do you think, "yeah, you think you're all clever and shit, but you're really referencing a Kris Kristofferson mini-series. Dork.) But it seems someone born in a different country needs to show up on your porch with a gun, and unless a 3rd ID soldier stands in their way you're not going to appreciate what they're prepared to do for you.
And again on preview:
Smedleyman, I was hoping you'd show up. Thanks.
posted by Cyrano at 9:38 AM on January 20, 2006
You know, on one level I kinda agree with Decani. I think all wars are unneccessary and immoral. I'm also a little concerned about folks that want to become soldiers and take orders regardless. But on the other, Decani's pure lack of empathy turns my stomach.
Yeah, Iraqis have died for no reason, so've our boys. Should we be over there? No. Did I do every thing I could personally do to prevent the war? Yeah. Did it do a damn bit of good? Nah. At this point, if I were Decani I would wash my hands of the whole affair and say "Them that wanted it can pay for it, in blood and money." But that's not how it works. That's not the righteous thing to do.
Growing up in the rural South, I've known too many young men and women who took the only way out of poverty. And that path is the armed forces. I've heard too many guidance counselors say that the only you'll grow up is to do some time in the military. And honestly, those kids that were lucky enough to join in a time of peace and serve through it, service did them good. Most of them needed that guidance and structure that they never got at home and grew into productive, decent citizens.
So these servicemen and women today, that are stuck in situation not of their own making are no more at fault for the casualties than the Iraqis. I understand how, when fed lines of patriotism and service that a free ride to college sounds damn good.
I don't fault the servicemen, I don't fault the Iraqis, I fault the man who sent them there. I fault the man who *never* served (no matter what the records show), who never went hungry, who has had a life that most Americans can only dream of, who in his hubris and greed decided to sacrifice American and Iraqi lives.
My heart breaks for all the broken people that will return from Iraq and Afganistan. Those that are broken on the outside will be easier to spot and show sympathy for, but the ones that are broken on the inside...that's where the challenge will lie.
I fear that there will be many more Sam Stones that we can imagine. And I'm sadly confident that the government and all the yellow ribboners will not help or know what to do with them. Just like in the last war.
posted by teleri025 at 9:55 AM on January 20, 2006
Yeah, Iraqis have died for no reason, so've our boys. Should we be over there? No. Did I do every thing I could personally do to prevent the war? Yeah. Did it do a damn bit of good? Nah. At this point, if I were Decani I would wash my hands of the whole affair and say "Them that wanted it can pay for it, in blood and money." But that's not how it works. That's not the righteous thing to do.
Growing up in the rural South, I've known too many young men and women who took the only way out of poverty. And that path is the armed forces. I've heard too many guidance counselors say that the only you'll grow up is to do some time in the military. And honestly, those kids that were lucky enough to join in a time of peace and serve through it, service did them good. Most of them needed that guidance and structure that they never got at home and grew into productive, decent citizens.
So these servicemen and women today, that are stuck in situation not of their own making are no more at fault for the casualties than the Iraqis. I understand how, when fed lines of patriotism and service that a free ride to college sounds damn good.
I don't fault the servicemen, I don't fault the Iraqis, I fault the man who sent them there. I fault the man who *never* served (no matter what the records show), who never went hungry, who has had a life that most Americans can only dream of, who in his hubris and greed decided to sacrifice American and Iraqi lives.
My heart breaks for all the broken people that will return from Iraq and Afganistan. Those that are broken on the outside will be easier to spot and show sympathy for, but the ones that are broken on the inside...that's where the challenge will lie.
I fear that there will be many more Sam Stones that we can imagine. And I'm sadly confident that the government and all the yellow ribboners will not help or know what to do with them. Just like in the last war.
posted by teleri025 at 9:55 AM on January 20, 2006
“You know, on one level I kinda agree with Decani. I think all wars are unneccessary and immoral. I'm also a little concerned about folks that want to become soldiers and take orders regardless. But on the other, Decani's pure lack of empathy turns my stomach.”
I empathize with your position teleri025
But I think that’s the thing.
That not everyone believes the war is wrong. Not everyone believes that what we’re doing in Iraq is a bad thing. People have different beliefs and different convictions. We might disagree with them, but that does not mean that their choices are that they are either stupid or evil. Some people believe that they are creating a democracy in Iraq. That there is justification for being there. That we have the right to do what it is we’re doing.
I’m not saying I agree with that opinion, but we must allow for and recognize it as a widely held perspective.
A person surrounded by others re-affirming their perspective is going to continue to hold that perspective. Indeed, it’s reinforced by a variety of media, blogs, etc. etc.
In addition - none of us here have a wide variety of constantly streaming primary information from which to draw conclusions.
Our opinions (that is - humans) are often based on the sources we choose to believe. Our analytical skills may be greater or lesser, or our sources may be better or worse or whatever - many permutations.
The point being there is a perspective out there that fighting in Iraq is a just and noble cause. And it is reenforced.
I don’t want to get Cartesian here, but we don’t absolutely know that what is happening in Iraq is not what the Administration is saying is happening.
*nearly throttles self*
It’s a tough point to defend because I disagree with the premise, but it is there. Not everyone is as well read or can see the pattern (abuse, detainment - this recent shit with Google - etc). Not all of us are all that smart or abstract minded. Some folks are quite guileless and literal, others might be a bit slow or whatever, still others are dogmatic or can’t see the forest for the trees.
Even then given the same data people just as smart or skilled as one another come to different conclusions.
That doesn’t make them evil or even stupid, that simply means they need more exposure to a wide variety of facts, ideas, and other perspectives and real interaction with others who think and feel that way to understand.
To communicate with the ‘other.’ To recognize the “other” as valid.
Hell, that’s why we’re all here (on metafilter) in the first place I thought.
So we find ourselves in similar straits teleri025,
intellectually I know that the war is wrong and people are being killed over what I’ve concluded is a series of lies. Which agrees with Decani’s position. I also know viscerally as well as intellectually that Decani’s callousness and indifference and indeed intellectual laziness and manifest unwillingness to sacrifice even the time it takes to post for his position (as opposed to comment in others’ threads) is EXACTLY what leads to wars.
This high and mighty distant ivory tower dogmatism coupled with callousness and self-righteousness is exactly the kind of perspective in a leader that sends men to their deaths regardless of the need or cost.
If I wasn’t describing Decani just now - who does that sound like? What leader(s) could be described as callous, self-righteous, callow, dogmatic....?
Now I don’t believe Decani would send men to war because of his principles. And I’m sure he possesses other qualities that are fabulous.
The point being however, that this disattachment is what leads to the horrors of war - not necessarily to war itself.
It is the horror that we should seek to avoid. And it can - and has - been done.
Every strategist from Sun Tzu to Musashi to Dunnigan knows you have to understand the enemy to defeat him. Not to massacre him or commit genocide. Understanding is key. This understanding is what avoids atrocity even as it leads to victory.
It is that we refuse to understand the pain of the other that we fall into the weakness of hatred. Which leads into overreaction and ultimately defeat.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:19 AM on January 20, 2006
I empathize with your position teleri025
But I think that’s the thing.
That not everyone believes the war is wrong. Not everyone believes that what we’re doing in Iraq is a bad thing. People have different beliefs and different convictions. We might disagree with them, but that does not mean that their choices are that they are either stupid or evil. Some people believe that they are creating a democracy in Iraq. That there is justification for being there. That we have the right to do what it is we’re doing.
I’m not saying I agree with that opinion, but we must allow for and recognize it as a widely held perspective.
A person surrounded by others re-affirming their perspective is going to continue to hold that perspective. Indeed, it’s reinforced by a variety of media, blogs, etc. etc.
In addition - none of us here have a wide variety of constantly streaming primary information from which to draw conclusions.
Our opinions (that is - humans) are often based on the sources we choose to believe. Our analytical skills may be greater or lesser, or our sources may be better or worse or whatever - many permutations.
The point being there is a perspective out there that fighting in Iraq is a just and noble cause. And it is reenforced.
I don’t want to get Cartesian here, but we don’t absolutely know that what is happening in Iraq is not what the Administration is saying is happening.
*nearly throttles self*
It’s a tough point to defend because I disagree with the premise, but it is there. Not everyone is as well read or can see the pattern (abuse, detainment - this recent shit with Google - etc). Not all of us are all that smart or abstract minded. Some folks are quite guileless and literal, others might be a bit slow or whatever, still others are dogmatic or can’t see the forest for the trees.
Even then given the same data people just as smart or skilled as one another come to different conclusions.
That doesn’t make them evil or even stupid, that simply means they need more exposure to a wide variety of facts, ideas, and other perspectives and real interaction with others who think and feel that way to understand.
To communicate with the ‘other.’ To recognize the “other” as valid.
Hell, that’s why we’re all here (on metafilter) in the first place I thought.
So we find ourselves in similar straits teleri025,
intellectually I know that the war is wrong and people are being killed over what I’ve concluded is a series of lies. Which agrees with Decani’s position. I also know viscerally as well as intellectually that Decani’s callousness and indifference and indeed intellectual laziness and manifest unwillingness to sacrifice even the time it takes to post for his position (as opposed to comment in others’ threads) is EXACTLY what leads to wars.
This high and mighty distant ivory tower dogmatism coupled with callousness and self-righteousness is exactly the kind of perspective in a leader that sends men to their deaths regardless of the need or cost.
If I wasn’t describing Decani just now - who does that sound like? What leader(s) could be described as callous, self-righteous, callow, dogmatic....?
Now I don’t believe Decani would send men to war because of his principles. And I’m sure he possesses other qualities that are fabulous.
The point being however, that this disattachment is what leads to the horrors of war - not necessarily to war itself.
It is the horror that we should seek to avoid. And it can - and has - been done.
Every strategist from Sun Tzu to Musashi to Dunnigan knows you have to understand the enemy to defeat him. Not to massacre him or commit genocide. Understanding is key. This understanding is what avoids atrocity even as it leads to victory.
It is that we refuse to understand the pain of the other that we fall into the weakness of hatred. Which leads into overreaction and ultimately defeat.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:19 AM on January 20, 2006
I empathize with your position teleri025
Thanks Smedleyman. You know, I've often felt that this is what makes liberals so easy to defeat. It's hard to be righteously indignant when you can see both sides of the argument.
Then again....
posted by teleri025 at 10:26 AM on January 20, 2006
Thanks Smedleyman. You know, I've often felt that this is what makes liberals so easy to defeat. It's hard to be righteously indignant when you can see both sides of the argument.
Then again....
posted by teleri025 at 10:26 AM on January 20, 2006
teleri025,
Please present evidence that "liberals" are so easy to defeat. Don't include GOPLite DLC candidates 'cause they're nowhere near "liberal." Thanks.
posted by nofundy at 10:30 AM on January 20, 2006
Please present evidence that "liberals" are so easy to defeat. Don't include GOPLite DLC candidates 'cause they're nowhere near "liberal." Thanks.
posted by nofundy at 10:30 AM on January 20, 2006
nofundy - I give you the evidence of day to day US politics. Can I claim my free badge now?
posted by longbaugh at 10:32 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by longbaugh at 10:32 AM on January 20, 2006
nofundy, heh.
I'd agree with longbaugh, that and the fact that no real liberal has ever gotten farther than local politics.
I personally have this problem all the time, because I'm willing to admit the other guy has a valid point, I often "lose" debates with my more conservative friends and family. There are very few points in the world that I am adamant that there is no alternative. In fact, the only one I can think of right now is that Writing in Library Books is WRONG.
Then again, I'm a bleeding heart liberal with fluid scale of morality and I'm not to be trusted on any matter. ;)
posted by teleri025 at 10:40 AM on January 20, 2006
I'd agree with longbaugh, that and the fact that no real liberal has ever gotten farther than local politics.
I personally have this problem all the time, because I'm willing to admit the other guy has a valid point, I often "lose" debates with my more conservative friends and family. There are very few points in the world that I am adamant that there is no alternative. In fact, the only one I can think of right now is that Writing in Library Books is WRONG.
Then again, I'm a bleeding heart liberal with fluid scale of morality and I'm not to be trusted on any matter. ;)
posted by teleri025 at 10:40 AM on January 20, 2006
Cyrano - I have used the word Amerika - I come from a different culture from you. Kris Kristofferson if I remember was a singer and minor movie star. I have no idea about your television mini series. I use Amerika to describe your country when it goes through its more fascistic evolutions. Does that make me a dork? I quite understand that not all americans live in Amerika however the controlling few seem to come from there at the moment.
posted by adamvasco at 10:50 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by adamvasco at 10:50 AM on January 20, 2006
If Decani pisses you off, please re-direct your anger at the US politicians who have been blithely cutting the VA for the past decades. I don't give a fuck if there's a yellow magnet on your car, and neither do crippled soldiers and vets faced with no long-term medical or financial support at home.
Poseurs, the lot of ya.
posted by bardic at 10:52 AM on January 20, 2006
Poseurs, the lot of ya.
posted by bardic at 10:52 AM on January 20, 2006
no real liberal has ever gotten farther than local politics.
Possibly an overstatement.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:54 AM on January 20, 2006
Possibly an overstatement.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:54 AM on January 20, 2006
Oh, and Kristofferson was much more than that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:57 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:57 AM on January 20, 2006
Thanks Kirth - I lost touch after he married Rita Coolidge - heartbreak I guess.
posted by adamvasco at 11:07 AM on January 20, 2006
posted by adamvasco at 11:07 AM on January 20, 2006
Decani, Kovic may be sympathizing with wounded soldiers in this piece, but that's not what the article is about.
Do you not get that there's a parallel to be drawn between the soldier and the public? That, in general, neither one questions the situation until the sacrifice hits home? Both start out in the "John Wayne-Audie Murphy movie" fantasy view, that there is something noble and virtuous about war. For the soldier, that fantasy is torn away the instant they're wounded. It's only then that they truly question the value of their actions. And bringing that reality home is what tears the fantasy away from the general public. That's Kovic's motivation for writing this, to wake up a jingoistic public to the harsh reality of war.
Kovic's concern for wounded soldiers is real, but his concern doesn't end with his sympathy for their physical suffering. He's concerned with the lesson learned by all of us, that we all need to learn that there is nothing heroic about war. It's very much in the same spirit at Wilfred Owen's Dulce et Decorum Est, where there is both pity for the soldier and a clarion call for those who send them to battle.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:13 AM on January 20, 2006
Do you not get that there's a parallel to be drawn between the soldier and the public? That, in general, neither one questions the situation until the sacrifice hits home? Both start out in the "John Wayne-Audie Murphy movie" fantasy view, that there is something noble and virtuous about war. For the soldier, that fantasy is torn away the instant they're wounded. It's only then that they truly question the value of their actions. And bringing that reality home is what tears the fantasy away from the general public. That's Kovic's motivation for writing this, to wake up a jingoistic public to the harsh reality of war.
Kovic's concern for wounded soldiers is real, but his concern doesn't end with his sympathy for their physical suffering. He's concerned with the lesson learned by all of us, that we all need to learn that there is nothing heroic about war. It's very much in the same spirit at Wilfred Owen's Dulce et Decorum Est, where there is both pity for the soldier and a clarion call for those who send them to battle.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:13 AM on January 20, 2006
Possibly an overstatement.
Kirth, I stand corrected.
posted by teleri025 at 11:18 AM on January 20, 2006
Kirth, I stand corrected.
posted by teleri025 at 11:18 AM on January 20, 2006
I think the “weak” liberal thing goes along with the stereotype that conservatives have no analytical skills or powers of reasoning.
The point of any argument is discovery, not “winning.” But assholes abound.
And - as has been pointed out here many times - what really do those labels mean?
I am a conservative - but if the tide goes out - even if you haven’t changed position - you’re no longer standing in water.
So what the hell.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:24 AM on January 20, 2006
The point of any argument is discovery, not “winning.” But assholes abound.
And - as has been pointed out here many times - what really do those labels mean?
I am a conservative - but if the tide goes out - even if you haven’t changed position - you’re no longer standing in water.
So what the hell.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:24 AM on January 20, 2006
I use Amerika to describe your country when it goes through its more fascistic evolutions. Does that make me a dork?
No more that the folks who think saying Micro$oft helps anything. We probably share many of the same concerns, but try to express them through a well-written paragraph, not some lame-ass intentional misspelling. You might as well use an IM smiley.
If Decani pisses you off, please re-direct your anger at the US politicians who have been blithely cutting the VA for the past decades.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
I don't give a fuck if there's a yellow magnet on your car.
I've never had a yellow ribbon, but I did have a United States Service flag up. And I'll keep it up even though he's home safe, because there's people who he considers family who aren't, which makes them part of my family. And a lot of that extended family has yellow ribbons up, and it's quite dissmissive of you to think that there is not honest concern behind any of them.
Maybe Decani has the same kind of connection with the Iraqi man on the street. Where he's sat down over a beer and listened to a man talk about what it's like to lose a friends in a war that isn't been fought in black and white on the History Channel, but by men and women, on both sides, who live in the same world you do. In which case I would welcome any such insights he could provide via such contacts.
Personally, I think they're all just tools for him to get his political wank on, though.
posted by Cyrano at 11:25 AM on January 20, 2006
No more that the folks who think saying Micro$oft helps anything. We probably share many of the same concerns, but try to express them through a well-written paragraph, not some lame-ass intentional misspelling. You might as well use an IM smiley.
If Decani pisses you off, please re-direct your anger at the US politicians who have been blithely cutting the VA for the past decades.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
I don't give a fuck if there's a yellow magnet on your car.
I've never had a yellow ribbon, but I did have a United States Service flag up. And I'll keep it up even though he's home safe, because there's people who he considers family who aren't, which makes them part of my family. And a lot of that extended family has yellow ribbons up, and it's quite dissmissive of you to think that there is not honest concern behind any of them.
Maybe Decani has the same kind of connection with the Iraqi man on the street. Where he's sat down over a beer and listened to a man talk about what it's like to lose a friends in a war that isn't been fought in black and white on the History Channel, but by men and women, on both sides, who live in the same world you do. In which case I would welcome any such insights he could provide via such contacts.
Personally, I think they're all just tools for him to get his political wank on, though.
posted by Cyrano at 11:25 AM on January 20, 2006
I notice you live in Tejas ....right?
This is true. I'm one of the blue dots.
posted by Cyrano at 12:31 PM on January 20, 2006
This is true. I'm one of the blue dots.
posted by Cyrano at 12:31 PM on January 20, 2006
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posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:00 AM on January 20, 2006