Marine's Single Finger Salute
February 1, 2006 9:00 PM Subscribe
Marine's One Finger Salute becomes an iconic image in the Iraqi War. Analysis and politics aside, this guy is one tough mother.
Ah, the one-finger salute. What was that about winning hearts and minds again?
posted by Pontius Pilate at 9:06 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by Pontius Pilate at 9:06 PM on February 1, 2006
Those IED disposal guys are hard core. Showing heroism by preventing deaths, instead of.. you know.. the usual stuff... That said, why is this an FPP? Do all new chain letters that make it into Snopes fit the bill?
posted by brundlefly at 9:08 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by brundlefly at 9:08 PM on February 1, 2006
Now, to be as succinct as possible (seeing that I really need to get to bed), I am vehemently against this war, and violence in general, but such a response from a guy who just got blown the fuck up, I've got to say, "Good on you, Mike."
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 9:12 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 9:12 PM on February 1, 2006
Yes to Mulp, no to the FPP. Single link to Snopes? What, was Wikipedia busy?
posted by klangklangston at 9:28 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 9:28 PM on February 1, 2006
Ah, the one-finger salute. What was that about winning hearts and minds again?
Right, because we're sure to win the hearts and minds of people who just pulled the trigger on an explosive device if only we can extend them simple courtesy as the medics bandage up our severe bomb wounds.
This war is crap, but criticizing a soldier for giving the finger to the guy who just blew him up is also crap.
posted by JekPorkins at 9:29 PM on February 1, 2006
Right, because we're sure to win the hearts and minds of people who just pulled the trigger on an explosive device if only we can extend them simple courtesy as the medics bandage up our severe bomb wounds.
This war is crap, but criticizing a soldier for giving the finger to the guy who just blew him up is also crap.
posted by JekPorkins at 9:29 PM on February 1, 2006
I certainly won't criticize the guy, but the people watching thinking this is like some football game...it just makes me crazy.
posted by gingembre at 9:31 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by gingembre at 9:31 PM on February 1, 2006
I like the one of the shark trying to get the guy in the helicopter too.
posted by fenriq at 9:38 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by fenriq at 9:38 PM on February 1, 2006
Ah, the one-finger salute. What was that about winning hearts and minds again?
Are you serious? Even Mother Teresa would be waving the finger if that happened to her (and then she would go back to covertly supporting totalitarian dictatorships and financial criminals).
posted by Falconetti at 9:57 PM on February 1, 2006
Are you serious? Even Mother Teresa would be waving the finger if that happened to her (and then she would go back to covertly supporting totalitarian dictatorships and financial criminals).
posted by Falconetti at 9:57 PM on February 1, 2006
I don't like the way the picture is going to be used, but hats off to Sgt. Burghardt. I hope he makes it home in one piece.
posted by Loudmax at 10:00 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by Loudmax at 10:00 PM on February 1, 2006
This guy has clearly saved many lives thanks to his expertise and, more importantly, his willingness to take such an incredible risk.
But one gets the impression that he enjoys the carnage, violence and chaos that surrounds him. It's the sort of thing better left to grade school fantasies of cowboys and GI Joe. While I appreciate his defiance in the face of adversity, glorifying it does more harm than good.
One can envision Bush and Rumsfeld using the experience of this single soldier to characterize the overall presence in Iraq. "Look!" They'll exclaim, "Our fighting men and women are doing a heckavua job, morale is high and the forces of evil can't keep us down."
posted by aladfar at 10:03 PM on February 1, 2006
But one gets the impression that he enjoys the carnage, violence and chaos that surrounds him. It's the sort of thing better left to grade school fantasies of cowboys and GI Joe. While I appreciate his defiance in the face of adversity, glorifying it does more harm than good.
One can envision Bush and Rumsfeld using the experience of this single soldier to characterize the overall presence in Iraq. "Look!" They'll exclaim, "Our fighting men and women are doing a heckavua job, morale is high and the forces of evil can't keep us down."
posted by aladfar at 10:03 PM on February 1, 2006
It always surprises and bewilders me when I see the stiff central digit blurred out on American television. So weirdly arbitrary. Makes me laugh, though, so that's cool.
If any one finger salute is iconic of the Iraq war, though, I reckon it's this one:
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:11 PM on February 1, 2006
If any one finger salute is iconic of the Iraq war, though, I reckon it's this one:
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:11 PM on February 1, 2006
All politics and other shit aside...
This guy is a badass.
I'd be sucking my thumb and soiling myself at that point.
posted by BobFrapples at 10:17 PM on February 1, 2006
This guy is a badass.
I'd be sucking my thumb and soiling myself at that point.
posted by BobFrapples at 10:17 PM on February 1, 2006
I find myself not caring, resenting people who do, and desirous of snarking about it.
posted by delmoi at 10:18 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by delmoi at 10:18 PM on February 1, 2006
did you know the plural of 'desired' is desiderata? Now you do.
posted by delmoi at 10:20 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by delmoi at 10:20 PM on February 1, 2006
To state the obvious, Gunnery Sergeant Burghard was incredibly lucky to survive with all of his bits intact (I'm assuming, despite the fact the detcord exploded between his feet, his nuts are still attached).
That said, something tells me this guy has a genuine death wish.
posted by Ritchie at 10:21 PM on February 1, 2006
That said, something tells me this guy has a genuine death wish.
posted by Ritchie at 10:21 PM on February 1, 2006
But one gets the impression that he enjoys the carnage, violence and chaos that surrounds him.
Yep, which is why he disables and destroys pieces of ordnance.
posted by justgary at 10:40 PM on February 1, 2006
Yep, which is why he disables and destroys pieces of ordnance.
posted by justgary at 10:40 PM on February 1, 2006
Obviously I am not suggesting that we need to turn the other cheek, as it were, to the persons attempting to blow us up. I just find it somewhat unfortunate that this kind of "fuck you and yours" defiance has become the symbol for our presence in Iraq (at least according to the linked article). Don't get me wrong - I admire the guy's tenacity and desire to keep fighting the good fight, but we've certainly come a long way from talk of liberation, freedom on the march, etc.
posted by Pontius Pilate at 10:45 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by Pontius Pilate at 10:45 PM on February 1, 2006
Yeah, I'm not happy about the fighting either, but if we have to be fighting, I'm happy this guy is on our side. Bad. Ass.
How about an off-thread snark: delmoi, the plural of 'desire' is actually 'desires'. The plural of 'desideratum' is 'desiderata'. Desiderata are the objects of desire, not the desire itself. If you're using the past tense verb 'desired', then it has no plural. There is an archaic form of that verb, though--desiderate. But again, no plural.
/end snark :)
posted by LooseFilter at 10:46 PM on February 1, 2006
How about an off-thread snark: delmoi, the plural of 'desire' is actually 'desires'. The plural of 'desideratum' is 'desiderata'. Desiderata are the objects of desire, not the desire itself. If you're using the past tense verb 'desired', then it has no plural. There is an archaic form of that verb, though--desiderate. But again, no plural.
/end snark :)
posted by LooseFilter at 10:46 PM on February 1, 2006
This picture is awesome.
/hate the war
//voted for Kerry
///own an ipod
posted by craniac at 10:46 PM on February 1, 2006
/hate the war
//voted for Kerry
///own an ipod
posted by craniac at 10:46 PM on February 1, 2006
but we've certainly come a long way from talk of liberation, freedom on the march, etc.
But what else could armed conflict be? It's killing people--don't see how it could ever be anything other than what it is.
"Winning hearts and minds" was always bullshit rhetoric.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:49 PM on February 1, 2006
But what else could armed conflict be? It's killing people--don't see how it could ever be anything other than what it is.
"Winning hearts and minds" was always bullshit rhetoric.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:49 PM on February 1, 2006
I'm sure "Gunny" would hand all you snarky fools a one-finger salute, too. I hate the war and think Bush should be tossed on his oily ear, but I'm damn glad to have this guy around, and would glady double my taxes if I could be ensured it would go to pay these guys' salaries. Somehow I think we'd do a whole lot less fighting and less paying off silly deficits overall if we had more guys like this sgt. running Congress.
posted by frogan at 10:52 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by frogan at 10:52 PM on February 1, 2006
The man's a twat. A lucky twat, it's true, but a twat nonetheless. I find it odd that people who claim to be against the war are hero-worshipping this tosser.
Oh, and he didn't give the finger 'to the guy who just blew him up', he just gave the finger to Iraqis in general. How very brave.
posted by MrMustard at 11:00 PM on February 1, 2006
Oh, and he didn't give the finger 'to the guy who just blew him up', he just gave the finger to Iraqis in general. How very brave.
posted by MrMustard at 11:00 PM on February 1, 2006
Sorry. He was assisted from the scene sans trousers. Nothing else matters.
He was p0wnd.
Ya can't be flippin' the bird with no pants on.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 11:10 PM on February 1, 2006
I should also mention that he is a total badass and can go to war buck naked if he wants to.
posted by fenriq at 11:14 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by fenriq at 11:14 PM on February 1, 2006
Oh, and he didn't give the finger 'to the guy who just blew him up', he just gave the finger to Iraqis in general. How very brave.
posted by MrMustard
Am I missing something you read?
He stood and gave the insurgents who had blown him up a one-fingered salute. "I flipped them one. It was like, 'OK, I lost that round but I'll be back next week'."
And no one's saying the flipping off is the brave part, but I'm sure you knew that.
posted by justgary at 11:14 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by MrMustard
Am I missing something you read?
He stood and gave the insurgents who had blown him up a one-fingered salute. "I flipped them one. It was like, 'OK, I lost that round but I'll be back next week'."
And no one's saying the flipping off is the brave part, but I'm sure you knew that.
posted by justgary at 11:14 PM on February 1, 2006
Right, so he knew exactly where the 'insurgents' were? Cool. Makes you wonder why he gave them the finger instead of calling down airstrikes.
Erm, I thought everyone was saying that the flipping off was the brave part. That's what the post is about.
posted by MrMustard at 11:45 PM on February 1, 2006
Erm, I thought everyone was saying that the flipping off was the brave part. That's what the post is about.
posted by MrMustard at 11:45 PM on February 1, 2006
I would pay $1000 to see an Ultimate Fighting bout between Pontius Pilate and the finger-giving guy.
posted by shoos at 11:45 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by shoos at 11:45 PM on February 1, 2006
I mean Pontius Pilate + MrMustard simultaneously vs. the finger-giving guy.
posted by shoos at 11:47 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by shoos at 11:47 PM on February 1, 2006
I'd take him. No problem. (And by 'take him' I mean 'run really fast away from him because he's way harder than me').
posted by MrMustard at 11:49 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by MrMustard at 11:49 PM on February 1, 2006
You cant run away when you're in the Octagon, dude. And where does it say no airstrikes were called in?
posted by shoos at 11:57 PM on February 1, 2006
posted by shoos at 11:57 PM on February 1, 2006
I'm with Mr Mustard. Everyone secrectly wants to be a tough guy, some going so far as to "put politics aside" to sing the praises of some gung-ho military buffoon. Check this out: "Iron Mike" ain't there doing humanitarian work. He's there because he's part of an aggressive invading force.
posted by baklavabaklava at 12:01 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by baklavabaklava at 12:01 AM on February 2, 2006
Man in pain signals anger with impotent gesture. What exactly are we supposed to be celebrating?
posted by beniamino at 12:10 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by beniamino at 12:10 AM on February 2, 2006
MrMustard, did it hurt when you were castrated? How young were you?
(baklavabaklava too)
posted by b_thinky at 12:11 AM on February 2, 2006
(baklavabaklava too)
posted by b_thinky at 12:11 AM on February 2, 2006
It was a vasectomy, and it only hurt afterwards when it swelled up.
posted by baklavabaklava at 12:13 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by baklavabaklava at 12:13 AM on February 2, 2006
It's one thing to be against the war and all, but it's ridiculous when you can't put away your wussiness to avoid bitching about a guy flipping the bird when he just survived a terrorist attack.
posted by b_thinky at 12:14 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by b_thinky at 12:14 AM on February 2, 2006
It's even another thing after that when the guy "flipping the bird" is the terrorist.
posted by baklavabaklava at 12:15 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by baklavabaklava at 12:15 AM on February 2, 2006
call in some airstrikes and let's have more indiscriminate killing to add to the 100,000.
posted by dydecker at 12:18 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by dydecker at 12:18 AM on February 2, 2006
that way, the Iraqis thought they had blown up his four other fingers
posted by matteo at 12:20 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by matteo at 12:20 AM on February 2, 2006
Fair point. But neither does it say that one of his more intelligent marine buddies later kicked the shit out of him for doing his own mini version of infamous Bush's 'Bring It On' speech. Do we assume that happened too?
And b_thinky, as far as I'm aware I've never been castrated. I'm struggling to see the relevance of your question there.
posted by MrMustard at 12:22 AM on February 2, 2006
And b_thinky, as far as I'm aware I've never been castrated. I'm struggling to see the relevance of your question there.
posted by MrMustard at 12:22 AM on February 2, 2006
Check this out: "Iron Mike" ain't there doing humanitarian work.
Check this out: No one claimed he was.
posted by justgary at 12:31 AM on February 2, 2006
Check this out: No one claimed he was.
posted by justgary at 12:31 AM on February 2, 2006
It's even another thing after that when the guy "flipping the bird" is the terrorist.
Yes, terrorists are quite well known for defusing bombs, aren't they?
posted by b_thinky at 12:42 AM on February 2, 2006
Yes, terrorists are quite well known for defusing bombs, aren't they?
posted by b_thinky at 12:42 AM on February 2, 2006
When I was in third grade, I got my ass kicked by a fifth grader and flipped him off and yelled obscenities at him as he walked away. And I didn't even have an armed escort. Praise me.
posted by Devils Slide at 12:50 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by Devils Slide at 12:50 AM on February 2, 2006
Uh, LooseFilter, you've "corrected" delmoi that the plural of "desire" is "desires," but you've misquoted him. He actually said that the plural of "desired" (used here not as a verb, but as a noun and the contemporary synonym of "desideratum") is "desiderata," and so it is.
Note: IANA linguist. Apologies if I've missed some esoteric distinction between "desired" (the noun, not the past-tense verb) and "desideratum."
Sorry to respond to the off-topic comment and ensuing snark, but I couldn't help myself. My sense of justice gets perturbed when people get taken to task for being right, or at least not for really being wrong.
Okay y'all, please return to arguing about whether a guy who lives through an IED exploding between his legs and flips off the insurgents *in their general direction* is a hero or an asshole. I vote "hero" but I also suspect "asshole." But maybe he's neither. Maybe he's just a guy who grew up wanting to be just like his dad, who's just like his dad.
posted by jenii at 1:01 AM on February 2, 2006
Note: IANA linguist. Apologies if I've missed some esoteric distinction between "desired" (the noun, not the past-tense verb) and "desideratum."
Sorry to respond to the off-topic comment and ensuing snark, but I couldn't help myself. My sense of justice gets perturbed when people get taken to task for being right, or at least not for really being wrong.
Okay y'all, please return to arguing about whether a guy who lives through an IED exploding between his legs and flips off the insurgents *in their general direction* is a hero or an asshole. I vote "hero" but I also suspect "asshole." But maybe he's neither. Maybe he's just a guy who grew up wanting to be just like his dad, who's just like his dad.
posted by jenii at 1:01 AM on February 2, 2006
As long as we're doing some pedantic derailing...
uncanny hengeman: He was p0wnd.
Ya can't be flippin' the bird with no pants on.
The term you're looking for is "pwned". It makes me happier than anything in the world that there's an extensive Wikipedia entry on that word.
hengeman, I mean no disrespect, and I totally agree with your statement.
posted by medialyte at 1:46 AM on February 2, 2006
uncanny hengeman: He was p0wnd.
Ya can't be flippin' the bird with no pants on.
The term you're looking for is "pwned". It makes me happier than anything in the world that there's an extensive Wikipedia entry on that word.
hengeman, I mean no disrespect, and I totally agree with your statement.
posted by medialyte at 1:46 AM on February 2, 2006
Right, so he knew exactly where the 'insurgents' were?
He knew that the insurgents had to be watching, in order to detonate the bomb at the precise moment that he's directly above it.
Makes you wonder why he gave them the finger instead of calling down airstrikes.
The guy thought he'd just had his bollocks blown off. Presumably, at that point he'd be leaving subsequent tactical decisions to smarter minds like yours...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:52 AM on February 2, 2006
He knew that the insurgents had to be watching, in order to detonate the bomb at the precise moment that he's directly above it.
Makes you wonder why he gave them the finger instead of calling down airstrikes.
The guy thought he'd just had his bollocks blown off. Presumably, at that point he'd be leaving subsequent tactical decisions to smarter minds like yours...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:52 AM on February 2, 2006
Whatever. It was a more interesting photograph than the other recently posted "iconic" picture.
Even though the other guy was more hardcore because he was actually SMOKING A CIGARETTE!
posted by Joeforking at 1:57 AM on February 2, 2006
Even though the other guy was more hardcore because he was actually SMOKING A CIGARETTE!
posted by Joeforking at 1:57 AM on February 2, 2006
Young men (even commie, liberal, pacifist men) get all wrapped up in being physically tough. I guess it's our bid at immortality and controlling our own destiny. Life eventually teaches (most of) us that: You do not have your way with life, life has it's way with you. The key for guys like Mike is to arrive at that understanding in one piece. My money is against him accomplishing this. Mike: you are flesh and bone, dude. Be careful.
posted by a_day_late at 2:42 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by a_day_late at 2:42 AM on February 2, 2006
This story isn't really that interesting. They should have made it where he heroically killed dozens of Iraqi terrorists after his convoy was ambushed and before he was wounded and captured and then later rescued by a crack team of Navy Seals from the empty hospital where evil Iraqi terrorist doctors saved his life. And it would be even more exciting and sexy if they made him a girl.
Oh wait, they already did that one. Ok I guess this one's cool too.
Can't we at least make him a pro football player?
posted by sic at 3:26 AM on February 2, 2006
Oh wait, they already did that one. Ok I guess this one's cool too.
Can't we at least make him a pro football player?
posted by sic at 3:26 AM on February 2, 2006
Ah, the one-finger salute. What was that about winning hearts and minds again?Yeah, because you should kiss the guy who tried to blow you up on the lips, full and hard.
posted by substrate at 3:40 AM on February 2, 2006
it's way with you = its way with you
posted by a_day_late at 3:51 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by a_day_late at 3:51 AM on February 2, 2006
I don't see any cognitive dissonance in not supporting the war but appreciating this image as iconic of the war, especially considering some of the issues brought up here.
Personally, I like the military. I grew up near Fort Dix and McGuire Air Force Base and I got to know a lot of people from the mil. If you have an affection for the military, you shouldn't want to see them wasted, in any sense of the term. Iraq is a waste and I don't like to see the military gummed up in this occupation. So when you get a story like this where one of them gets blown up, in only a technical sense, and surviving with everything, including his attitude, intact, then it makes me happy.
Sure, he was trying to give the finger to the insurgents but more than insurgents were watching and maybe the local innocent Iraqis thought he was giving them the finger, or Allah. So in defiance of his near-disaster, he sends a confused message to the world. "We're here to help... bitch." Taking the administration and his cheering section at face value, this is iconic of our mission in Iraq.
posted by effwerd at 4:18 AM on February 2, 2006
Personally, I like the military. I grew up near Fort Dix and McGuire Air Force Base and I got to know a lot of people from the mil. If you have an affection for the military, you shouldn't want to see them wasted, in any sense of the term. Iraq is a waste and I don't like to see the military gummed up in this occupation. So when you get a story like this where one of them gets blown up, in only a technical sense, and surviving with everything, including his attitude, intact, then it makes me happy.
Sure, he was trying to give the finger to the insurgents but more than insurgents were watching and maybe the local innocent Iraqis thought he was giving them the finger, or Allah. So in defiance of his near-disaster, he sends a confused message to the world. "We're here to help... bitch." Taking the administration and his cheering section at face value, this is iconic of our mission in Iraq.
posted by effwerd at 4:18 AM on February 2, 2006
Wow. This guy's a fugitive from the law of averages.
posted by alumshubby at 4:24 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by alumshubby at 4:24 AM on February 2, 2006
The part that really got to me was that this guy was on his third tour.
With every 'tour' his chances, and the chances of those who are with him become slimmer and slimmer he will make it out without severe injury, being maimed or being killed.
That is what gets to me. This is a country who's sending a few generations to a game of russian roulette on a lie and not letting them leave due to 'stop loss' because the rest of the country's young is too smart to follow in these guy's footsteps to validate that lie and continue that sick and murderous tick of the clock closer to getting that 'golden wound' that gets you rotated out permanently, to experience the life of a cripple from one's youth onwards to death or ends up with a one way ticket to the morgue.
And with each of these guys being subjected to increasing tension from these extended tours it's only a matter of time before any of them blow up like a living time bomb and do something desperate, whether over there in Iraq to innocent civilians or here back in the states to the civilian population who they will feel 'owes them something' that they will not obtain once they're out of uniform and back in the civilian world.
posted by mk1gti at 4:36 AM on February 2, 2006
With every 'tour' his chances, and the chances of those who are with him become slimmer and slimmer he will make it out without severe injury, being maimed or being killed.
That is what gets to me. This is a country who's sending a few generations to a game of russian roulette on a lie and not letting them leave due to 'stop loss' because the rest of the country's young is too smart to follow in these guy's footsteps to validate that lie and continue that sick and murderous tick of the clock closer to getting that 'golden wound' that gets you rotated out permanently, to experience the life of a cripple from one's youth onwards to death or ends up with a one way ticket to the morgue.
And with each of these guys being subjected to increasing tension from these extended tours it's only a matter of time before any of them blow up like a living time bomb and do something desperate, whether over there in Iraq to innocent civilians or here back in the states to the civilian population who they will feel 'owes them something' that they will not obtain once they're out of uniform and back in the civilian world.
posted by mk1gti at 4:36 AM on February 2, 2006
"I'll do 30 years, as long as I'm having fun. Unless I die."
This dude is like the anti-Yossarian.
posted by The God Complex at 5:07 AM on February 2, 2006
This dude is like the anti-Yossarian.
posted by The God Complex at 5:07 AM on February 2, 2006
Yeah, he's not Yossarian, he's more like Kurtz.
EOD guys are pretty crazy. I met one who was clearing a minefield in Afghanistan by crawling around with armor on poking the ground with a bayonet (that's how they do it). My friend asked what his name was, to which the guy replied, "They call me Maddog." Without pause my friend said, "Of course they do."
I guess I should say that we had accidentally "parked" a plane in their minefield so those EOD guys saved our lives that day.
posted by tcobretti at 5:23 AM on February 2, 2006
EOD guys are pretty crazy. I met one who was clearing a minefield in Afghanistan by crawling around with armor on poking the ground with a bayonet (that's how they do it). My friend asked what his name was, to which the guy replied, "They call me Maddog." Without pause my friend said, "Of course they do."
I guess I should say that we had accidentally "parked" a plane in their minefield so those EOD guys saved our lives that day.
posted by tcobretti at 5:23 AM on February 2, 2006
I just find it somewhat unfortunate that this kind of "fuck you and yours" defiance has become the symbol for our presence in Iraq (at least according to the linked article)
Pontius Pilate.... Are you SERIOUS? I am against the war, but these guys are out there every fucking day getting shot at and killed by the people who our country has set them against - sins of the father and all. i wouldn't just be giving the the finger....i dont think that would be enough. hell, i don't think goatse would be enough. this guy is badass and you know it.
posted by Doorstop at 5:34 AM on February 2, 2006
Pontius Pilate.... Are you SERIOUS? I am against the war, but these guys are out there every fucking day getting shot at and killed by the people who our country has set them against - sins of the father and all. i wouldn't just be giving the the finger....i dont think that would be enough. hell, i don't think goatse would be enough. this guy is badass and you know it.
posted by Doorstop at 5:34 AM on February 2, 2006
With every 'tour' his chances, and the chances of those who are with him become slimmer and slimmer he will make it out without severe injury, being maimed or being killed.
I think you might want to stats again. Pay attention to the section on probability and independent events.
posted by srboisvert at 5:34 AM on February 2, 2006
I think you might want to stats again. Pay attention to the section on probability and independent events.
posted by srboisvert at 5:34 AM on February 2, 2006
hengeman, I mean no disrespect
That's cool. Always appreciate a heads-up. I have this lazy(?) tactic of sometimes using Google to check spelling. Throw in all the options and choose the one with the most hits.
I couldn't remember if it was p0wned (13800) results or p0wnd (2130 results) but it turns our it was neither!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 5:41 AM on February 2, 2006
That's cool. Always appreciate a heads-up. I have this lazy(?) tactic of sometimes using Google to check spelling. Throw in all the options and choose the one with the most hits.
I couldn't remember if it was p0wned (13800) results or p0wnd (2130 results) but it turns our it was neither!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 5:41 AM on February 2, 2006
I think you might want to stats again. Pay attention to the section on probability and independent events.
-------------------------
are you refering to the stats saying that you have a likelier chance of suffering a fatal motor accident in California than dying in Iraq or Afghanistan?
posted by mk1gti at 6:19 AM on February 2, 2006
-------------------------
are you refering to the stats saying that you have a likelier chance of suffering a fatal motor accident in California than dying in Iraq or Afghanistan?
posted by mk1gti at 6:19 AM on February 2, 2006
are you refering to the stats saying that you have a likelier chance of suffering a fatal motor accident in California than dying in Iraq or Afghanistan?
posted by mk1gti at 9:19 AM EST on February 2 [!]
No, he's refering to the basic laws of statistics, the ones you learn in math class. The ones that say that if you flip a coin 5 times, and it comes up heads every time, you still have 50-50 odds for that 6th coin toss. Probability and independent events laws state that this guy has the same probability of being killed on his next tour as he did on his first one. Seriously. It's not a political debate, it's math class. Read a STAT 101 textbook if you don't believe me.
posted by unreason at 6:49 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by mk1gti at 9:19 AM EST on February 2 [!]
No, he's refering to the basic laws of statistics, the ones you learn in math class. The ones that say that if you flip a coin 5 times, and it comes up heads every time, you still have 50-50 odds for that 6th coin toss. Probability and independent events laws state that this guy has the same probability of being killed on his next tour as he did on his first one. Seriously. It's not a political debate, it's math class. Read a STAT 101 textbook if you don't believe me.
posted by unreason at 6:49 AM on February 2, 2006
Allegedly there's a bumper sticker or t-shirt slogan for these guys that says "I'm EOD. If you see me running...CATCH UP."
posted by alumshubby at 7:01 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by alumshubby at 7:01 AM on February 2, 2006
Yeah, because you should kiss the guy who tried to blow you up on the lips, full and hard.
Unfortunately that's the kind of "bad ass" it takes to win hearts and minds. However, given that that goal is an impossibility, the next best thing is to just try to be bad ass as possible as we pull out (or stick around and play civil war police).
As far as statistics go...this guy is pushing it. Flipping coins in the air is a metaphor. What's going on here is defusing bombs. You have to flips heads EVERY TIME to win that game. In such a case, the overall odds of survival drop dramatically with each 'flip'.
He got lucky (and probably moreso because he was good and luck favors the prepared), and is fully entitled to flipping the bird to whoever he wants, at least in my book.
There are a number of great stories like this that come out of wars. Unfortunately there are a greater number of not so great stories.
posted by wah at 7:37 AM on February 2, 2006
Unfortunately that's the kind of "bad ass" it takes to win hearts and minds. However, given that that goal is an impossibility, the next best thing is to just try to be bad ass as possible as we pull out (or stick around and play civil war police).
As far as statistics go...this guy is pushing it. Flipping coins in the air is a metaphor. What's going on here is defusing bombs. You have to flips heads EVERY TIME to win that game. In such a case, the overall odds of survival drop dramatically with each 'flip'.
He got lucky (and probably moreso because he was good and luck favors the prepared), and is fully entitled to flipping the bird to whoever he wants, at least in my book.
There are a number of great stories like this that come out of wars. Unfortunately there are a greater number of not so great stories.
posted by wah at 7:37 AM on February 2, 2006
Flipping coins in the air is a metaphor. What's going on here is defusing bombs. You have to flips heads EVERY TIME to win that game. In such a case, the overall odds of survival drop dramatically with each 'flip'.
Huh? The bomb he's defusing today doesn't have any way of knowing that he's already defused 234123 bombs, so the probability of him safely defusing that bomb isn't any lower than it would be if he'd only defused 50 bombs.
If anything, we'd expect the probability of safe defusing to increase as the soldier gains more experience.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:58 AM on February 2, 2006
Huh? The bomb he's defusing today doesn't have any way of knowing that he's already defused 234123 bombs, so the probability of him safely defusing that bomb isn't any lower than it would be if he'd only defused 50 bombs.
If anything, we'd expect the probability of safe defusing to increase as the soldier gains more experience.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:58 AM on February 2, 2006
Huh? The bomb he's defusing today doesn't have any way of knowing that he's already defused 234123 bombs
not to contribute to the statistics derail -- and i am most certainly not a statitician (sp?) or math person of any kind -- but i thought that for situations like this, it's not quite the same as flipping a coin over and over, it's closer to flipping a different coin each time and having to get heads every time, as wah said.
so he's not defusing the same bomb each time, there are variations in each bomb; and, further, just as the soldier can gain more experience, so can the bomb makers, adding to the complexity.
consequently, it seems like the "independent event" model doesn't quite fit here, but i have no idea what kind of probability table you can make for what he's doing. of course, as i said, i'm not a math person, and i'm possibly talking so deeply out of my ass, my words are coming out brown; so please feel free to ignore me.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:09 AM on February 2, 2006
not to contribute to the statistics derail -- and i am most certainly not a statitician (sp?) or math person of any kind -- but i thought that for situations like this, it's not quite the same as flipping a coin over and over, it's closer to flipping a different coin each time and having to get heads every time, as wah said.
so he's not defusing the same bomb each time, there are variations in each bomb; and, further, just as the soldier can gain more experience, so can the bomb makers, adding to the complexity.
consequently, it seems like the "independent event" model doesn't quite fit here, but i have no idea what kind of probability table you can make for what he's doing. of course, as i said, i'm not a math person, and i'm possibly talking so deeply out of my ass, my words are coming out brown; so please feel free to ignore me.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:09 AM on February 2, 2006
Huh? The bomb he's defusing today doesn't have any way of knowing that he's already defused 234123 bombs, so the probability of him safely defusing that bomb isn't any lower than it would be if he'd only defused 50 bombs.
That's not the probability I was talking about. As you noted, he's probably getting better at it on an individual basis. The probability I was talking about what the TOTAL chance of him coming home on his own two feet (i.e. 'flipping heads' 64 times in a row [1]).
[1...winning the Bronze Star for disabling 64 IEDs and destroying 1,548 pieces of ordnance during his second tour.]
Regardless, the guy is a bad ass, IMHO, and the picture is pretty awesome.
posted by wah at 8:20 AM on February 2, 2006
That's not the probability I was talking about. As you noted, he's probably getting better at it on an individual basis. The probability I was talking about what the TOTAL chance of him coming home on his own two feet (i.e. 'flipping heads' 64 times in a row [1]).
[1...winning the Bronze Star for disabling 64 IEDs and destroying 1,548 pieces of ordnance during his second tour.]
Regardless, the guy is a bad ass, IMHO, and the picture is pretty awesome.
posted by wah at 8:20 AM on February 2, 2006
Huh? The bomb he's defusing today doesn't have any way of knowing that he's already defused 234123 bombs, so the probability of him safely defusing that bomb isn't any lower than it would be if he'd only defused 50 bombs.
That's not the probability I was talking about. As you noted, he's probably getting better at it on an individual basis. The probability I was talking about what the TOTAL chance of him coming home on his own two feet (i.e. 'flipping heads' 64 times in a row [1]).
[1...winning the Bronze Star for disabling 64 IEDs and destroying 1,548 pieces of ordnance during his second tour.]
Regardless, the guy is a bad ass, IMHO, and the picture is pretty awesome.
posted by wah at 8:20 AM on February 2, 2006
That's not the probability I was talking about. As you noted, he's probably getting better at it on an individual basis. The probability I was talking about what the TOTAL chance of him coming home on his own two feet (i.e. 'flipping heads' 64 times in a row [1]).
[1...winning the Bronze Star for disabling 64 IEDs and destroying 1,548 pieces of ordnance during his second tour.]
Regardless, the guy is a bad ass, IMHO, and the picture is pretty awesome.
posted by wah at 8:20 AM on February 2, 2006
How about an off-thread snark: delmoi, the plural of 'desire' is actually 'desires'. The plural of 'desideratum' is 'desiderata'. Desiderata are the objects of desire, not the desire itself.
Oops, your right. for some reason I was thinking desideratum = desired. Like you could use desired where you would use desideratum.
Anyway.
posted by delmoi at 9:19 AM on February 2, 2006
“Winning hearts and minds" was always bullshit rhetoric.” -posted by LooseFilter
It works as a tactic. But I agree politically it seems that it’s often only given lip service.
Gotta love EOD. I knew a guy with UXO* tattooed just above his package (large enough to see in the shower). They have wacky senses of humor.
*acr. = unexploded ordinance
I’d rather plant ‘em than disarm ‘em. There’s just something sad about unexpended ordinance.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:33 AM on February 2, 2006
It works as a tactic. But I agree politically it seems that it’s often only given lip service.
Gotta love EOD. I knew a guy with UXO* tattooed just above his package (large enough to see in the shower). They have wacky senses of humor.
*acr. = unexploded ordinance
I’d rather plant ‘em than disarm ‘em. There’s just something sad about unexpended ordinance.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:33 AM on February 2, 2006
The war is wrong. The soldiers being ordered to fight it are not.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:42 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by Ironmouth at 9:42 AM on February 2, 2006
Anyone who can almost get his balls blown off and come out thinking "I lost that round but I'll be back next week," is OK in my book.
posted by Cyrano at 9:42 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by Cyrano at 9:42 AM on February 2, 2006
"The probability I was talking about what the TOTAL chance of him coming home on his own two feet (i.e. 'flipping heads' 64 times in a row)"
Isn't that the Gambler's Fallacy?
posted by klangklangston at 9:43 AM on February 2, 2006
Isn't that the Gambler's Fallacy?
posted by klangklangston at 9:43 AM on February 2, 2006
"Allegedly there's a bumper sticker or t-shirt slogan for these guys that says 'I'm EOD. If you see me running...CATCH UP.'"
This one?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:04 AM on February 2, 2006
This one?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:04 AM on February 2, 2006
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 10:08 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 10:08 AM on February 2, 2006
"The war is wrong. The soldiers being ordered to fight it are not."
please see
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:09 AM on February 2, 2006
please see
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:09 AM on February 2, 2006
Granted - the guys going around disarming bombs are definitely right. But killing is wrong. Always was, always is. (Unless that's not part of your belief system. Personally, my holy book outlaws the taking of life.)
This whole idea that the "poor soldiers" were forced into shooting others against their will is hogwash.
I believe killing is against the rules. Unless they're wearing some sort of CIA brain-scrambling device, they don't get abdicated from killing just because they're soldiers.
I wish all the soldiers were going around, taking away guns, dismantling bombs and spreading the peace.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:14 AM on February 2, 2006
This whole idea that the "poor soldiers" were forced into shooting others against their will is hogwash.
I believe killing is against the rules. Unless they're wearing some sort of CIA brain-scrambling device, they don't get abdicated from killing just because they're soldiers.
I wish all the soldiers were going around, taking away guns, dismantling bombs and spreading the peace.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:14 AM on February 2, 2006
I wish unicorns would shoot rainbows from their horns, rainbows that turn into flowers and fall to earth, eradicating war, poverty, hunger and hatred wherever they land.
posted by you just lost the game at 11:34 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by you just lost the game at 11:34 AM on February 2, 2006
the people watching thinking this is like some football game...it just makes me crazy.
It is a football game. Fighting over territory, helmets and armor.
What do you think football is? It's indoctrination in warfare and mind control for kids who would otherwise be playing peaceful games, like baseball, track or gymnastics.
Soccer is just a less blatant version of this kind of war. So don't go holding it up as superior.
posted by nyxxxx at 12:09 PM on February 2, 2006
It is a football game. Fighting over territory, helmets and armor.
What do you think football is? It's indoctrination in warfare and mind control for kids who would otherwise be playing peaceful games, like baseball, track or gymnastics.
Soccer is just a less blatant version of this kind of war. So don't go holding it up as superior.
posted by nyxxxx at 12:09 PM on February 2, 2006
Christ, haters could you please stop whining for one fucking minute. I'm not American, and even I think the guy is a dude. Perhaps a little devil-may-care, but a dude nonetheless.
Suck it.
posted by The Monkey at 2:48 PM on February 2, 2006
Suck it.
posted by The Monkey at 2:48 PM on February 2, 2006
Yeah uncanny hengeman that's why it's the most popular sport in the world. You cock.
On preview: I'm talking about football. Again.
posted by MrMustard at 2:50 PM on February 2, 2006
On preview: I'm talking about football. Again.
posted by MrMustard at 2:50 PM on February 2, 2006
How is he a dude? He nearly gets blown up and raises his middle digit when he realises he still has both legs and his knackers. He got lucky. I'm not upset that he survived, but for fuck's sake, he's hardly a hero.
posted by MrMustard at 2:54 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by MrMustard at 2:54 PM on February 2, 2006
MrMustard, that was a 100% troll comment. Probably a bit our of order but not to be taken seriously.
Having said that, I notice that your argument is nearly always the go-to argument employed by soccer lovers worldwide. And I don't buy your "more people do it so it must be the best" argument at all. Apply that line of reasoning across the board for other pastimes and beliefs and see what crazy results you get.
I have a number of theories why such a gay sport has become so popular, but, alas, that's for another thread.
And I agree with your other post. Being lucky doth not a hero make.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:08 PM on February 2, 2006
Having said that, I notice that your argument is nearly always the go-to argument employed by soccer lovers worldwide. And I don't buy your "more people do it so it must be the best" argument at all. Apply that line of reasoning across the board for other pastimes and beliefs and see what crazy results you get.
I have a number of theories why such a gay sport has become so popular, but, alas, that's for another thread.
And I agree with your other post. Being lucky doth not a hero make.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:08 PM on February 2, 2006
Being lucky doth not a hero make.
Aaah, but you'll have a tough time finding a hero upon whom Lady Luck hath not smiled.
posted by wah at 3:20 PM on February 2, 2006
Aaah, but you'll have a tough time finding a hero upon whom Lady Luck hath not smiled.
posted by wah at 3:20 PM on February 2, 2006
I'll do all the ye olde English, wah. :)
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:23 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:23 PM on February 2, 2006
Just intrigued by the 'gay' thing. Does 'gay' equal 'bad'? Of course, you're a tough guy Aussie and not a whinging Pom, so, well, whatever that means. Anyway I love Stan, so I'm glad not all your fellow countrymen hate the greatest sport ever.
PS - Glad we agree on the topic at hand though.
posted by MrMustard at 3:30 PM on February 2, 2006
PS - Glad we agree on the topic at hand though.
posted by MrMustard at 3:30 PM on February 2, 2006
Gay = troll!!!
And yes, I meant it in the "bad" sense.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:33 PM on February 2, 2006
Ah. Well, earlier in the thread I meant 'twat' in the bad sense. So I guess we're even. You twat.
posted by MrMustard at 3:38 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by MrMustard at 3:38 PM on February 2, 2006
Mr mustard, I went to Uni with Stan Lazaridis. Just after he signed his big contract and was off to the UK to become a millionaire we had the interfaculty soccer coming up. So we're all begging him, "Stan, ya just gotta. Go on Stan, please please, pretty please."
And he's like, "Well, I really shouldn't be risking injury, and this is TOTALLY against the contract I just signed… but what the heck."
Go Stan!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:38 PM on February 2, 2006
And he's like, "Well, I really shouldn't be risking injury, and this is TOTALLY against the contract I just signed… but what the heck."
Go Stan!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:38 PM on February 2, 2006
Stan's done alright, but I doubt West Ham and Birmingham have made him a millionaire. He must have played a bit of rugby as well though. No one gets a face like his without having taken a few hits!
posted by MrMustard at 3:45 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by MrMustard at 3:45 PM on February 2, 2006
Yeah, and only people who've been castrated play it, eh? Cock.
posted by MrMustard at 4:02 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by MrMustard at 4:02 PM on February 2, 2006
Soccer, and Basketball and any other sissy sport where it is to your sissy advantage to cry and pretend to be hurt, stink.
Also, the digitus impudicus of this man was not for us, or all the Iraqi people, it is just for the one Iraqi bomber who was watching and waiting to murder him. This EOD guy goes out every day to be the mouse in a game of cat and mouse , knowing that he is never going to have any way to strike back at the guys who try to kill him every day. He doesn't kill women and children, he doesnt kick in doors and harrass people, he doesn't drop bombs on villages, he finds them waiting in public areas and disarms them.
posted by Megafly at 6:02 PM on February 2, 2006
Also, the digitus impudicus of this man was not for us, or all the Iraqi people, it is just for the one Iraqi bomber who was watching and waiting to murder him. This EOD guy goes out every day to be the mouse in a game of cat and mouse , knowing that he is never going to have any way to strike back at the guys who try to kill him every day. He doesn't kill women and children, he doesnt kick in doors and harrass people, he doesn't drop bombs on villages, he finds them waiting in public areas and disarms them.
posted by Megafly at 6:02 PM on February 2, 2006
Once again, to clarify.
Do I think this guy was right to flip off the insurgent who just tried to kill him? Absolutely.
Do I think that he should have instead kissed him on the lips, "full and hard"? No, but thanks for the absurd argument.
Here's why I took issue with this story. It's not the fact that a lone guy flipped off an insurgent; rather, it's the fact that this has become a symbol for our presence in Iraq. The popularity of the image bespeaks the underlying "us vs. them" philosophy, and quite frankly, I don't think that this philosophy is refined enough for a lot of troops to distinguish an Iraqi civilian from an insurgent in every single case between. That is the problem, and that's why I wrote the original post.
posted by Pontius Pilate at 6:39 PM on February 2, 2006
Do I think this guy was right to flip off the insurgent who just tried to kill him? Absolutely.
Do I think that he should have instead kissed him on the lips, "full and hard"? No, but thanks for the absurd argument.
Here's why I took issue with this story. It's not the fact that a lone guy flipped off an insurgent; rather, it's the fact that this has become a symbol for our presence in Iraq. The popularity of the image bespeaks the underlying "us vs. them" philosophy, and quite frankly, I don't think that this philosophy is refined enough for a lot of troops to distinguish an Iraqi civilian from an insurgent in every single case between. That is the problem, and that's why I wrote the original post.
posted by Pontius Pilate at 6:39 PM on February 2, 2006
To summarise:
Marine with pants blown off, still a dude.
MrMustard, still a wanker.
Look, he disables bombs for a living. That's a pretty tough job. You suck mustard covered cocks for a living, which is tough as well, but when a cock explodes, you just get an eye full not an eye out.
posted by The Monkey at 9:04 PM on February 2, 2006
Marine with pants blown off, still a dude.
MrMustard, still a wanker.
Look, he disables bombs for a living. That's a pretty tough job. You suck mustard covered cocks for a living, which is tough as well, but when a cock explodes, you just get an eye full not an eye out.
posted by The Monkey at 9:04 PM on February 2, 2006
Funny how those who love this 'dude' are pretty quick with the homophobic insults.
The Monkey - I don't even like mustard, but thanks for the image.
posted by MrMustard at 10:44 PM on February 2, 2006
The Monkey - I don't even like mustard, but thanks for the image.
posted by MrMustard at 10:44 PM on February 2, 2006
I don't love the dude, I just fully recognise his dudehood. I wish that if I'd been blown up in the air by a bomb, and had my arse scorched, and my pants burned off, that I'd be able to stand up and bust a symbol of defiance. But I fear I'd just lie on the stretcher and cry, so someone who doesn't lie on the stretcher and cry? Dude.
On the mustard front, don't be so coy. We know your secrets. You soccer loving little scallywag.
posted by The Monkey at 3:07 AM on February 3, 2006
On the mustard front, don't be so coy. We know your secrets. You soccer loving little scallywag.
posted by The Monkey at 3:07 AM on February 3, 2006
Yeah, wtf is up with you people? Are you in junior high or something?
I expect people to call things "gay" on WoW and crap like that, but this place has been, I thought, one where homophobes were not welcome to emit their gay-bashing bullshit.
Grow up.
posted by beth at 3:16 AM on February 3, 2006
I expect people to call things "gay" on WoW and crap like that, but this place has been, I thought, one where homophobes were not welcome to emit their gay-bashing bullshit.
Grow up.
posted by beth at 3:16 AM on February 3, 2006
Hi beth, it wasn't gay bashing, it was MrMustard bashing.
posted by The Monkey at 6:49 PM on February 4, 2006
posted by The Monkey at 6:49 PM on February 4, 2006
Why, The Monkey, if no one sucked cocks, I would never get a blowjob. And that's just no fun.
No way to insult someone.
Try something more along the lines of "You seem, to me, to display the mental capacities of a particularly dim-witted anemone, you trogloditic dunderpate." Now there's an insult.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 7:11 PM on February 4, 2006
No way to insult someone.
Try something more along the lines of "You seem, to me, to display the mental capacities of a particularly dim-witted anemone, you trogloditic dunderpate." Now there's an insult.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 7:11 PM on February 4, 2006
Good one, Mulp. Yet The Monkey salutes dudehood nicely.
posted by stirfry at 7:19 PM on February 4, 2006
posted by stirfry at 7:19 PM on February 4, 2006
Mulp, I don't agree with you at all, as insults go, that's hopeless. I'll tell you what, you do the encyclopedophilia stuff, I'll do the mustard gags.
Actually, I guess MrMustard will be the one doing the gagging.
posted by The Monkey at 8:44 PM on February 4, 2006
Actually, I guess MrMustard will be the one doing the gagging.
posted by The Monkey at 8:44 PM on February 4, 2006
« Older Gentlemen take polaroids | New Book Exposes Massive Fraud Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Glad to hear he's having such a good time.
posted by baklavabaklava at 9:03 PM on February 1, 2006