Farang Men and Thai Bar Girls.
March 29, 2006 4:32 PM Subscribe
Farang men and Thai bar girls:
Some farangs quickly lose the plot; some know how to treat a bar girl; some run complicated "free sex" scams; some are exploitative creeps.
Bar girls can be sticky; some like to collect sponsors.
Is true love possible? The odds are against it.
Some farangs quickly lose the plot; some know how to treat a bar girl; some run complicated "free sex" scams; some are exploitative creeps.
Bar girls can be sticky; some like to collect sponsors.
Is true love possible? The odds are against it.
Erm, metabomb, there should be a NSFW on at least one of those links.
posted by jokeefe at 5:23 PM on March 29, 2006
posted by jokeefe at 5:23 PM on March 29, 2006
A Canadian guy I know here in Korea has used stickman's site for years to plan his frequent visits to Thailand.
Man, I hate that guy.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:30 PM on March 29, 2006
Man, I hate that guy.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:30 PM on March 29, 2006
I didn't read the earlier thread because I knew I'd end up full of frustration and anger, and I should maybe bow out of this one now, before it gets ugly.
But maybe it won't get ugly. Maybe everyone will agree that sex with Thai prostitutes is good manly consensual fun, and that those who think otherwise are ignorant Western liberals who just Don't Get It.
Or women. With their irritating, uninformed opinions, and who have no idea what it's like to be a drunken guy in a foreign country who just wants to get laid, goddamit. Because those women do pretty well out of the deal, buddy, and don't let those whiners back home tell you anything different. [/shuts up now]
posted by jokeefe at 5:39 PM on March 29, 2006
But maybe it won't get ugly. Maybe everyone will agree that sex with Thai prostitutes is good manly consensual fun, and that those who think otherwise are ignorant Western liberals who just Don't Get It.
Or women. With their irritating, uninformed opinions, and who have no idea what it's like to be a drunken guy in a foreign country who just wants to get laid, goddamit. Because those women do pretty well out of the deal, buddy, and don't let those whiners back home tell you anything different. [/shuts up now]
posted by jokeefe at 5:39 PM on March 29, 2006
Oh. And flagged for "offensive content". Probably because I'm getting my period, or something.
posted by jokeefe at 5:42 PM on March 29, 2006
posted by jokeefe at 5:42 PM on March 29, 2006
Free sex scams?
Man, what a messed up place.
So I’ve compiled my own personal stories of how I’ve succeeded in getting almost an entire 6 months of free sex by lying, cheating, and stealing in LOS. I’ve fxxxed over 100 women and some were told they were girlfriends to “keep them around and faithful” when their bars closed. On the average day, I could fxxx 3 different women a day all for free because I told them I was their boyfriend.
Prostitution is one thing, but that's just lame. But at the same time, it really says a lot about the idea that having sex with a woman because she actually wants to have sex with you rather then for money is somehow ripping them off.
posted by delmoi at 5:45 PM on March 29, 2006
Man, what a messed up place.
So I’ve compiled my own personal stories of how I’ve succeeded in getting almost an entire 6 months of free sex by lying, cheating, and stealing in LOS. I’ve fxxxed over 100 women and some were told they were girlfriends to “keep them around and faithful” when their bars closed. On the average day, I could fxxx 3 different women a day all for free because I told them I was their boyfriend.
Prostitution is one thing, but that's just lame. But at the same time, it really says a lot about the idea that having sex with a woman because she actually wants to have sex with you rather then for money is somehow ripping them off.
posted by delmoi at 5:45 PM on March 29, 2006
Hey, jokeefe, relax.
I found these stories fascinating, and have been reading a lot of them. Human interest, funny and interesting how people can live very different lives from you and I.
The way you judge / filter what you read on the Internet is entirely up to you, but you are really kind of stuffing it down our throats here, no?
posted by Meatbomb at 5:47 PM on March 29, 2006
I found these stories fascinating, and have been reading a lot of them. Human interest, funny and interesting how people can live very different lives from you and I.
The way you judge / filter what you read on the Internet is entirely up to you, but you are really kind of stuffing it down our throats here, no?
posted by Meatbomb at 5:47 PM on March 29, 2006
"... those who think otherwise are ignorant Western liberals who just Don't Get It."
How did you figure a card-carrying liberal would be against kinky consensual sex?
Interesting post. Kind of depressing, though.
Not downing it, look forward to doing it, but the desperation, the cheapness.
"One night in Bangkok makes a hard man humble."
Or so I've heard....
posted by rougy at 5:51 PM on March 29, 2006
How did you figure a card-carrying liberal would be against kinky consensual sex?
Interesting post. Kind of depressing, though.
Not downing it, look forward to doing it, but the desperation, the cheapness.
"One night in Bangkok makes a hard man humble."
Or so I've heard....
posted by rougy at 5:51 PM on March 29, 2006
I was wandering around Bangkok a while back and got really tired of seeing all the PBMAFs (Pot Bellied Middle Aged Farangs) with the inevitable tiny Thai woman in tow.
"Just once", I thought to myself, "I'd like to see a trim and fit farang with a Thai woman who was taller than him."
While waiting at the docks, my wish was granted. A young, well muscled Australian guy arrived with an absolutely stunning Thai woman with him. She was at least 5'10" without the spiky heels and had the most fantastic sexy long legs it's been my pleasure to behold. Needless to say she had long black hair, and her makeup was done exquisitely.
As we were all waiting for the ferry, her companion turned to her and said "Did you see a Men's room? I've got to take a leak." She replied, in a deep baritone, "Yeah, me too." and they went off to the men's room together.
At that point I decided that even if I was tempted, I was not hooking up with any Thai women without doing a plumbing check first.
posted by tkolar at 5:58 PM on March 29, 2006
"Just once", I thought to myself, "I'd like to see a trim and fit farang with a Thai woman who was taller than him."
While waiting at the docks, my wish was granted. A young, well muscled Australian guy arrived with an absolutely stunning Thai woman with him. She was at least 5'10" without the spiky heels and had the most fantastic sexy long legs it's been my pleasure to behold. Needless to say she had long black hair, and her makeup was done exquisitely.
As we were all waiting for the ferry, her companion turned to her and said "Did you see a Men's room? I've got to take a leak." She replied, in a deep baritone, "Yeah, me too." and they went off to the men's room together.
At that point I decided that even if I was tempted, I was not hooking up with any Thai women without doing a plumbing check first.
posted by tkolar at 5:58 PM on March 29, 2006
The way you judge / filter what you read on the Internet is entirely up to you, but you are really kind of stuffing it down our throats here, no?
I'm willing to admit that I'm probably responding to the stuff I read in the previous thread linked in your first comment (and particularly spoiledcowboy's posts), rather than comments yet to be posted here, but I suppose I'm anticipating them. As far as stuffing it down anybody's throats goes, much of the content of the linked sites is pretty vile in all the predictable ways, so yeah, I am posting kind of quickly and loudly, but it's hardly a trivial issue, and it's one that raises immediate and passionate reactions (and revulsion) for many.
posted by jokeefe at 5:58 PM on March 29, 2006
I'm willing to admit that I'm probably responding to the stuff I read in the previous thread linked in your first comment (and particularly spoiledcowboy's posts), rather than comments yet to be posted here, but I suppose I'm anticipating them. As far as stuffing it down anybody's throats goes, much of the content of the linked sites is pretty vile in all the predictable ways, so yeah, I am posting kind of quickly and loudly, but it's hardly a trivial issue, and it's one that raises immediate and passionate reactions (and revulsion) for many.
posted by jokeefe at 5:58 PM on March 29, 2006
HaHa! Hilarious that one about the farang falling in lurve with the bargirl.
I have a friend who still swears blind that one of the bargirls in Patpong road had a special thing for him that was not in *any way* commercial: "I can sense this sort of thing...it was real..."
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:03 PM on March 29, 2006
I have a friend who still swears blind that one of the bargirls in Patpong road had a special thing for him that was not in *any way* commercial: "I can sense this sort of thing...it was real..."
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:03 PM on March 29, 2006
"... those who think otherwise are ignorant Western liberals who just Don't Get It."
How did you figure a card-carrying liberal would be against kinky consensual sex?
I think part of what I was getting at was the fact that the sheer economic exchange of prostitution sometimes gets elided for the men who use these women, and who like to convince themselves that the women honestly enjoy their company, or enjoy what they're doing. The men can pretend that they are enjoying some kind of consensual exchange in which money figures somewhat, but this ignores the inherent nature of the power differential in these relationships, and the men's likely ignorance of what genuine poverty is.
posted by jokeefe at 6:06 PM on March 29, 2006
How did you figure a card-carrying liberal would be against kinky consensual sex?
I think part of what I was getting at was the fact that the sheer economic exchange of prostitution sometimes gets elided for the men who use these women, and who like to convince themselves that the women honestly enjoy their company, or enjoy what they're doing. The men can pretend that they are enjoying some kind of consensual exchange in which money figures somewhat, but this ignores the inherent nature of the power differential in these relationships, and the men's likely ignorance of what genuine poverty is.
posted by jokeefe at 6:06 PM on March 29, 2006
I have a friend who still swears blind that one of the bargirls in Patpong road had a special thing for him that was not in *any way* commercial: "I can sense this sort of thing...it was real..."
Exactly.
If you read the forums where men gather to compare notes on prostitutes (fascinating stuff-- a friend of mine directed me to one discussing prostitutes here in Vancouver) you'll find the same refrain over and over again: "I really did her. I made her come!" It's astonishing how many of these guys really want to believe that what's happening is not acting, faking, and doing what it takes to get well paid. There seems to be a willing blind spot there, which is even more egregious when the woman in question is an impoverished member of a foreign culture.
I'm not saying that some women, here in North America, don't choose the profession, at the higher, safer and well paid levels. But that's a different matter to the 16 year old bargirl in Bangkok, isn't it?
posted by jokeefe at 6:10 PM on March 29, 2006
Exactly.
If you read the forums where men gather to compare notes on prostitutes (fascinating stuff-- a friend of mine directed me to one discussing prostitutes here in Vancouver) you'll find the same refrain over and over again: "I really did her. I made her come!" It's astonishing how many of these guys really want to believe that what's happening is not acting, faking, and doing what it takes to get well paid. There seems to be a willing blind spot there, which is even more egregious when the woman in question is an impoverished member of a foreign culture.
I'm not saying that some women, here in North America, don't choose the profession, at the higher, safer and well paid levels. But that's a different matter to the 16 year old bargirl in Bangkok, isn't it?
posted by jokeefe at 6:10 PM on March 29, 2006
jokeefe wrote...
"Some" are exploitative creeps?
It's true, the men really are exploiting helpless women. I mean, check out this asshole in this story -- it's hard to imagine a more cold or manipulative guy.
--------------
The worst one I think was a Canadian guy when I was living up in Ekamai. He would have been about 32 - 33 years old and had fallen badly for some girl from a bar. Gosh, he got it bad. She moved in with him but still insisted on doing her thing in the bar. “It’s only work darleeng."
One day she went on holiday to some island with some tourist she met in the bar – his information on this being provided by a phone call. He was ever so upset so I took him across the main drag for some Mekhong and Sok Lek. Explaining was no option – so just talk, try to divert his thoughts. Two days later, he took the high dive from the eighth floor. Poor guy.
--------
posted by tkolar at 6:11 PM on March 29, 2006
"Some" are exploitative creeps?
It's true, the men really are exploiting helpless women. I mean, check out this asshole in this story -- it's hard to imagine a more cold or manipulative guy.
--------------
The worst one I think was a Canadian guy when I was living up in Ekamai. He would have been about 32 - 33 years old and had fallen badly for some girl from a bar. Gosh, he got it bad. She moved in with him but still insisted on doing her thing in the bar. “It’s only work darleeng."
One day she went on holiday to some island with some tourist she met in the bar – his information on this being provided by a phone call. He was ever so upset so I took him across the main drag for some Mekhong and Sok Lek. Explaining was no option – so just talk, try to divert his thoughts. Two days later, he took the high dive from the eighth floor. Poor guy.
--------
posted by tkolar at 6:11 PM on March 29, 2006
Erm, metabomb, there should be a NSFW on at least one of those links. Yes, "free sex scams" and "how to treat a Thai bar girl" could easily be confused with legitimate business websites. (O, the sarcasm!)
posted by longsleeves at 6:12 PM on March 29, 2006
posted by longsleeves at 6:12 PM on March 29, 2006
In my view prostitution is no more degrading then working as a telemarketer, or cleaning toilets. Certainly not great work, but people don't act like it's 'immoral'.
The only thing that makes prostitution "especially" exploitive is the fact that it involves sex. As if itself sex for a woman is inherently degrading if it's not done 'right'.
That view is itself linked in strongly conservative sexual mores that underlay our society from our puritanical roots, as well as "intrinsic" sexual taboos. People would be just as upset about hiring 3rd world people to eat insects and pig vomit, even if the 3rd worlders liked it, because to them eating insects and pig vomit is disgusting, but there is nothing intrinsically morally wrong with either, so there is nothing intrinsically morally wrong about paying someone to do it.
The fact that something grosses you out doesn't make it wrong. If that were the case Homosexuality would almost certainly be "wrong"
posted by delmoi at 6:12 PM on March 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
The only thing that makes prostitution "especially" exploitive is the fact that it involves sex. As if itself sex for a woman is inherently degrading if it's not done 'right'.
That view is itself linked in strongly conservative sexual mores that underlay our society from our puritanical roots, as well as "intrinsic" sexual taboos. People would be just as upset about hiring 3rd world people to eat insects and pig vomit, even if the 3rd worlders liked it, because to them eating insects and pig vomit is disgusting, but there is nothing intrinsically morally wrong with either, so there is nothing intrinsically morally wrong about paying someone to do it.
The fact that something grosses you out doesn't make it wrong. If that were the case Homosexuality would almost certainly be "wrong"
posted by delmoi at 6:12 PM on March 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
Yes, "free sex scams" and "how to treat a Thai bar girl" could easily be confused with legitimate business websites. (O, the sarcasm!)
O, the selective criticism! I was referring to the links in here: "Some are exploitative creeps. Bar girls can be sticky; some like to collect sponsors. Is true love possible? The odds are against it." Should one automatically know, clicking on "Is true love possible" that this isn't really SFW? And yes, I know I can hover and check the url. I just think it would have been an appropriate courtesy to indicate that some of the links, or rather the site they go to, was nsfw.
posted by jokeefe at 6:16 PM on March 29, 2006
O, the selective criticism! I was referring to the links in here: "Some are exploitative creeps. Bar girls can be sticky; some like to collect sponsors. Is true love possible? The odds are against it." Should one automatically know, clicking on "Is true love possible" that this isn't really SFW? And yes, I know I can hover and check the url. I just think it would have been an appropriate courtesy to indicate that some of the links, or rather the site they go to, was nsfw.
posted by jokeefe at 6:16 PM on March 29, 2006
In my view prostitution is no more degrading then working as a telemarketer, or cleaning toilets. Certainly not great work, but people don't act like it's 'immoral'.
Ever tried it, delmoi? You might change your mind if you had.
posted by jokeefe at 6:17 PM on March 29, 2006
Ever tried it, delmoi? You might change your mind if you had.
posted by jokeefe at 6:17 PM on March 29, 2006
I think part of what I was getting at was the fact that the sheer economic exchange of prostitution sometimes gets elided for the men who use these women, and who like to convince themselves that the women honestly enjoy their company, or enjoy what they're doing. The men can pretend that they are enjoying some kind of consensual exchange in which money figures somewhat, but this ignores the inherent nature of the power differential in these relationships, and the men's likely ignorance of what genuine poverty is.
I don't think those women are impoverished in any sense of the word, nor would they be particularly impoverished if they did not do sex work.
I have a problem with this 'fluid' definition of consent; all relationships have some sort of power imbalance. Is it really 'consent' if a woman doesn't want to have sex with her husband, but does because she loves him and wants to make him happy? What if he's a total asshole?
You'll probably say that's a ridiculous comparison, and it probably is. Oh well.
The point is that if there is some third factor in play compelling the woman to sleep with a man, she's still consenting to have sex with him. The fact that the woman is actively seducing the guy, and trying to convince him to have sex with her changes the equation a bit more.
posted by delmoi at 6:18 PM on March 29, 2006
I don't think those women are impoverished in any sense of the word, nor would they be particularly impoverished if they did not do sex work.
I have a problem with this 'fluid' definition of consent; all relationships have some sort of power imbalance. Is it really 'consent' if a woman doesn't want to have sex with her husband, but does because she loves him and wants to make him happy? What if he's a total asshole?
You'll probably say that's a ridiculous comparison, and it probably is. Oh well.
The point is that if there is some third factor in play compelling the woman to sleep with a man, she's still consenting to have sex with him. The fact that the woman is actively seducing the guy, and trying to convince him to have sex with her changes the equation a bit more.
posted by delmoi at 6:18 PM on March 29, 2006
The fact that something grosses you out doesn't make it wrong. If that were the case Homosexuality would almost certainly be "wrong"
Erm, homosexuality does not and has never grossed me out. It's even something I've enthusiastically engaged in.
Anyway, I'm going home. Catch you later.
posted by jokeefe at 6:19 PM on March 29, 2006
Erm, homosexuality does not and has never grossed me out. It's even something I've enthusiastically engaged in.
Anyway, I'm going home. Catch you later.
posted by jokeefe at 6:19 PM on March 29, 2006
Jokeefe, I agree with you utterly. You and I are behind the times on this, though. There are even a number of places like Germany and Holland where progressive thinkers have decided that being a "sex worker" is perfectly legal and moral and no different from being an office worker. In general, where progressive thinkers find they have to be anti-sex to be anti-exploitation, the exploitation will suddenly become quite invisible to them.
posted by jfuller at 6:21 PM on March 29, 2006
posted by jfuller at 6:21 PM on March 29, 2006
Exactly, the 'prostitution is exploitation' angle hangs too much on moralistic, sex-is-shameful, notions. Powerful, old, universal notions, but ridiculous nonetheless.
The complicated issue is that for the 16 year old bar girl, it doesn't matter whether it's ok to be ashamed of being a prostitute or whether random liberals think that anti-prostitution-stigma is ridiculous—as far as she's concerned, as are 99.99% of most people, the majority opinion in a society informs their personal esteem and judgement. Prostitution is a degrading lost resort.
Where this leaves her clientele is pretty much an open question in my mind. She chose to go that way to make more money, and being yet another person giving her that money is wrong? It smacks of the 'don't employ people in outsourced sweatshops' argument when those employees desperately want to work in an MNC-provided sweatshop (not saying the issues are analogous—not at all—just that there are similar factors of perception regarding 'what's fair' at play.)
posted by Firas at 6:22 PM on March 29, 2006
The complicated issue is that for the 16 year old bar girl, it doesn't matter whether it's ok to be ashamed of being a prostitute or whether random liberals think that anti-prostitution-stigma is ridiculous—as far as she's concerned, as are 99.99% of most people, the majority opinion in a society informs their personal esteem and judgement. Prostitution is a degrading lost resort.
Where this leaves her clientele is pretty much an open question in my mind. She chose to go that way to make more money, and being yet another person giving her that money is wrong? It smacks of the 'don't employ people in outsourced sweatshops' argument when those employees desperately want to work in an MNC-provided sweatshop (not saying the issues are analogous—not at all—just that there are similar factors of perception regarding 'what's fair' at play.)
posted by Firas at 6:22 PM on March 29, 2006
Ever tried it, delmoi? You might change your mind if you had.
posted by jokeefe at 9:17 PM EST on March 29 [!]
Again, it's about contexts, right? It's just physical services performed for a client. Just because we, as a species, attach shame to the action doesn't mean that it's rationally a degrading thing to engage in.
posted by Firas at 6:25 PM on March 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by jokeefe at 9:17 PM EST on March 29 [!]
Again, it's about contexts, right? It's just physical services performed for a client. Just because we, as a species, attach shame to the action doesn't mean that it's rationally a degrading thing to engage in.
posted by Firas at 6:25 PM on March 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
Ever tried it, delmoi? You might change your mind if you had.
Well I've never been in the situation of needing money badly enough to consider prostitution. I would much rather have sex with women for free then get paid for it, and I did get paid for it I think I would feel pretty shitty. Hmm.
I certainly wouldn't blame the women, or imagine that they are doing something wrong.
Of course for me probably about 30% of women could have sex with me if they just asked.
posted by delmoi at 6:28 PM on March 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
Well I've never been in the situation of needing money badly enough to consider prostitution. I would much rather have sex with women for free then get paid for it, and I did get paid for it I think I would feel pretty shitty. Hmm.
I certainly wouldn't blame the women, or imagine that they are doing something wrong.
Of course for me probably about 30% of women could have sex with me if they just asked.
posted by delmoi at 6:28 PM on March 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
Erm, homosexuality does not and has never grossed me out. It's even something I've enthusiastically engaged in.
Right, but you understand that it grosses a lot of people out, right?
posted by delmoi at 6:29 PM on March 29, 2006
Right, but you understand that it grosses a lot of people out, right?
posted by delmoi at 6:29 PM on March 29, 2006
Again, it's about contexts, right? It's just physical services performed for a client. Just because we, as a species, attach shame to the action doesn't mean that it's rationally a degrading thing to engage in.
Argh, I should have known better than to look in here again. Nevermind. Firas, the nature of sexual exchange makes it qualitiatively different from other physical acts which we might perform for a paying customer, such as hairdressing or massage. It isn't a matter of "shame", and this is important: it's a matter of intimacy.
Okay, really gone now. Thanks for the support, jfuller.
posted by jokeefe at 6:29 PM on March 29, 2006
Argh, I should have known better than to look in here again. Nevermind. Firas, the nature of sexual exchange makes it qualitiatively different from other physical acts which we might perform for a paying customer, such as hairdressing or massage. It isn't a matter of "shame", and this is important: it's a matter of intimacy.
Okay, really gone now. Thanks for the support, jfuller.
posted by jokeefe at 6:29 PM on March 29, 2006
So that I can be sure I am not exploiting anyone, when I go to Bangkok, how can I tell girls forced into prositution from the girls who chose, at age 16 or younger, to make money as a prostitute?
I am sure that this information would be useful to many men who want to make sure that the children they are paying to fuck have chosen that lifestyle.
Of course, we all know that every adult woman who is a prositute in Thailand chose that lifestyle and wasn't kidnapped and sold into it as a child. The children forced into prostitution graduate at 18 and get to move on to prestigious universities with all the money their exploiters saved up for them.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:32 PM on March 29, 2006
I am sure that this information would be useful to many men who want to make sure that the children they are paying to fuck have chosen that lifestyle.
Of course, we all know that every adult woman who is a prositute in Thailand chose that lifestyle and wasn't kidnapped and sold into it as a child. The children forced into prostitution graduate at 18 and get to move on to prestigious universities with all the money their exploiters saved up for them.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:32 PM on March 29, 2006
jokeefe, I'd have a much easier time listening to you rant if you had anything in common with Thai bar girls other than ovaries.
It's not clear to me at all why you believe that you know what these women are thinking of any more than any random man.
Which isn't to say that I know what they're thinking, but that's really the point.
MeatBomb has provided us with some links that (mainly) provide insight into what the men in these situations are actually thinking and experiencing. Perhaps you could find a similar site from the women's point of view? (and I assure you, these completely impoverished innocent natives that you seem to believe in do have and use internet access -- it's part of their business)
posted by tkolar at 6:37 PM on March 29, 2006
It's not clear to me at all why you believe that you know what these women are thinking of any more than any random man.
Which isn't to say that I know what they're thinking, but that's really the point.
MeatBomb has provided us with some links that (mainly) provide insight into what the men in these situations are actually thinking and experiencing. Perhaps you could find a similar site from the women's point of view? (and I assure you, these completely impoverished innocent natives that you seem to believe in do have and use internet access -- it's part of their business)
posted by tkolar at 6:37 PM on March 29, 2006
It isn't a matter of "shame", and this is important: it's a matter of intimacy.
Well, I think attaching a prerequisite of intimacy to sex is just a holdout of our moralistic/monogamist views about the issue. Yay for birth control?
I don't mean to be flippant. Look, I take intimacy and emotional obligations and the like very seriously. But we can't drag our notions of what is required before we engage in act X into judging other people engaging in the act.
We probably won't see eye to eye on this, but my basic stance is, let's seperate the layers here: is prostitution as a business transaction 'wrong'? No. Is choosing to be a prostitute unequivocally 'wrong'? No. Is being the client of a prostitute, especially prostitutes who'd much rather be doing something else, and 'participating in the system', even if your personal choice about the matter didn't affect the persistence of the system either way, 'wrong'? I don't know…
posted by Firas at 6:40 PM on March 29, 2006
Well, I think attaching a prerequisite of intimacy to sex is just a holdout of our moralistic/monogamist views about the issue. Yay for birth control?
I don't mean to be flippant. Look, I take intimacy and emotional obligations and the like very seriously. But we can't drag our notions of what is required before we engage in act X into judging other people engaging in the act.
We probably won't see eye to eye on this, but my basic stance is, let's seperate the layers here: is prostitution as a business transaction 'wrong'? No. Is choosing to be a prostitute unequivocally 'wrong'? No. Is being the client of a prostitute, especially prostitutes who'd much rather be doing something else, and 'participating in the system', even if your personal choice about the matter didn't affect the persistence of the system either way, 'wrong'? I don't know…
posted by Firas at 6:40 PM on March 29, 2006
Argh, I should have known better than to look in here again. Nevermind. Firas, the nature of sexual exchange makes it qualitiatively different from other physical acts which we might perform for a paying customer, such as hairdressing or massage. It isn't a matter of "shame", and this is important: it's a matter of intimacy.
First of all what do you mean? Are you saying that because of the intimacy a woman working as a prostitute is more likely to have her feelings hurt then someone getting screamed at all day while working at a telemarketer?
I don't think hookers feel too much intimacy anyway.
posted by delmoi at 6:41 PM on March 29, 2006
First of all what do you mean? Are you saying that because of the intimacy a woman working as a prostitute is more likely to have her feelings hurt then someone getting screamed at all day while working at a telemarketer?
I don't think hookers feel too much intimacy anyway.
posted by delmoi at 6:41 PM on March 29, 2006
Joey Michaels writes....
Of course, we all know that every adult woman who is a prositute in Thailand chose that lifestyle and wasn't kidnapped and sold into it as a child.
So are you suggesting that the world boycott the Thai sex industry because criminals do bad things?
This is even better than Bush's anti-drug messages. Remember, "Smoking pot funds terrorism!"
posted by tkolar at 6:44 PM on March 29, 2006
Of course, we all know that every adult woman who is a prositute in Thailand chose that lifestyle and wasn't kidnapped and sold into it as a child.
So are you suggesting that the world boycott the Thai sex industry because criminals do bad things?
This is even better than Bush's anti-drug messages. Remember, "Smoking pot funds terrorism!"
posted by tkolar at 6:44 PM on March 29, 2006
Well, I'm with Jokeefe on this one. Tawdry and depressing. Stuff like this always makes me ashamed of my sex. So does seeing people saying fat-headed things like, "the 'prostitution is exploitation' angle hangs too much on moralistic, sex-is-shameful, notions"
Bull. Shit. It may be something to do with guilt and prostitute murders, amongst other things, but not the exploitation.
posted by Decani at 6:45 PM on March 29, 2006
Bull. Shit. It may be something to do with guilt and prostitute murders, amongst other things, but not the exploitation.
posted by Decani at 6:45 PM on March 29, 2006
Of course, we all know that every adult woman who is a prositute in Thailand chose that lifestyle and wasn't kidnapped and sold into it as a child.
Well, I think if you licensed and regulated the industry you'd have issues of consent pretty much sorted out to the same ones you get in a variety of other menial jobs, if that.
You could say the issue we're going into here is prostitution as abstract concept vs. prostitution in reality, but it's actually mirrored by prostitution in developed, richer nations vs. prostitution in less prosperous ones.
posted by Firas at 6:47 PM on March 29, 2006
Well, I think if you licensed and regulated the industry you'd have issues of consent pretty much sorted out to the same ones you get in a variety of other menial jobs, if that.
You could say the issue we're going into here is prostitution as abstract concept vs. prostitution in reality, but it's actually mirrored by prostitution in developed, richer nations vs. prostitution in less prosperous ones.
posted by Firas at 6:47 PM on March 29, 2006
Joey: did you read your second link:
An important elements that emerged from our research was that young people who engaged in sex for favors rarely defined themselves as 'prostitutes' or linked their activities to work in the sex industry per se. The term prostitution, for all but one person interviewed, was not a way a describing their reality. Rea and I published about this in the National AIDS Bulletin in Australia where we subtitled our article "Prostitution is something other kids do." Heather Montgomery in her case study of a small village next to a tourist resort in Thailand had a similar research experience (see Montgomery, 1998). She discovered that the children and young people who engaged in what could be termed 'prostitution' with tourists as a way of supporting their families, considered it a deep insult to be called a 'child prostitute.' They would refer to their activities in other ways including 'going out for fun with foreigners', 'catching a foreigner' or even 'having guestsposted by delmoi at 6:47 PM on March 29, 2006
Decani, people are assholes, welcome to the world. I don't share the mindset of the storytellers in the FPP, but I recognize that it's a human story, from human experience, and of human reality. I'm not sure you'd go any further by denouncing the clients of prostitutes for their objectifying mindset than you'd go by denouncing men (and women) hanging out in bars and doing the same.
posted by Firas at 6:50 PM on March 29, 2006
posted by Firas at 6:50 PM on March 29, 2006
They would refer to their activities in other ways including 'going out for fun with foreigners', 'catching a foreigner' or even 'having guests'
Thanks, delmoi. I was wanting to post something about Thailand being, well, just kinda *wierd* sexually, but could not put a finger on it. I am not sure that it is something you could get a sense of without having been there...hoping somebody can provide more examples of this relaxed, kinda kooky attitude towards things...?
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:55 PM on March 29, 2006
Thanks, delmoi. I was wanting to post something about Thailand being, well, just kinda *wierd* sexually, but could not put a finger on it. I am not sure that it is something you could get a sense of without having been there...hoping somebody can provide more examples of this relaxed, kinda kooky attitude towards things...?
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:55 PM on March 29, 2006
BKK caters to a lot of creeps. Having had the fortunate circumstance of remaining faithful to my gf (who was back home at the time) I got to witness first hand a lot fascinating social behaviour in Thailand without ever indulging in any of it myself. All of the nitty gritty, the ladies paying the bar for access, the groups swarming in at a certain time of night, the mandatory ladyboy per copse of girls. The grinding on the dancefloor, the attachment and endearing smiles, promise of love and requests for stability, and of course the hilarious and very primal musical chairs scramble for a partner when the lights came at closing time.
Personally I couldn't bring myself to go to the parts of town that catered just to the sex trade (second hand ping pong ball stories were graphic enough thank you very much), but they serve a purpose, even if the ethical circumstances can be rather muddled and complicated. I'm no moralist though, otherwise my farang ass probably wouldn't have been in Thailand to begin with. Is it so wrong to enjoy culture on the cheap? Is it any different then if that happens to mean $30 for sex. In North America most males will gladly spend more than that if they have even the slightest chance of getting lucky.
I certainly don't consider myself in a position to judge any of the things that went on. I saw farang get taken for a ride, but it's also interesting, yet equally disappointing, to see that sometimes it goes the other way too. Such is life. Truth be told though, most of the time it isn't bad like that, and both parties leave with exactly what they wanted.
posted by furtive at 7:09 PM on March 29, 2006
Personally I couldn't bring myself to go to the parts of town that catered just to the sex trade (second hand ping pong ball stories were graphic enough thank you very much), but they serve a purpose, even if the ethical circumstances can be rather muddled and complicated. I'm no moralist though, otherwise my farang ass probably wouldn't have been in Thailand to begin with. Is it so wrong to enjoy culture on the cheap? Is it any different then if that happens to mean $30 for sex. In North America most males will gladly spend more than that if they have even the slightest chance of getting lucky.
I certainly don't consider myself in a position to judge any of the things that went on. I saw farang get taken for a ride, but it's also interesting, yet equally disappointing, to see that sometimes it goes the other way too. Such is life. Truth be told though, most of the time it isn't bad like that, and both parties leave with exactly what they wanted.
posted by furtive at 7:09 PM on March 29, 2006
NSFW is a courtesy, but certainly not required. Nobody else is responsible for what you click on.
Except for a certain site, but we're not going to talk about it.
posted by signal at 7:09 PM on March 29, 2006
Except for a certain site, but we're not going to talk about it.
posted by signal at 7:09 PM on March 29, 2006
By the way, on the behalf of the country of Thailand, I would like to correct some misconceptions:
Thailand ranks 22nd in the world for comparative purchasing power. As a place to live and work it's more affordable than quite a bit of Europe.
It's unemployment rate is 1.4%. U.S rate is 5.1%
The life expectancy for a Thai woman is 74 years, the same as the life expectancy for a U.S. man.
10% of the Thai population lives below the poverty line, as opposed to 12% in the United States.
They have 26.5 million cellphones for a population of 65 million people. The U.S. has 158 million phones for 295 million people.
In short, can we discard the notion of Thailand as a third world country full of impoverished brown people?
Thanks.
(Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/th.html)
posted by tkolar at 7:15 PM on March 29, 2006
Thailand ranks 22nd in the world for comparative purchasing power. As a place to live and work it's more affordable than quite a bit of Europe.
It's unemployment rate is 1.4%. U.S rate is 5.1%
The life expectancy for a Thai woman is 74 years, the same as the life expectancy for a U.S. man.
10% of the Thai population lives below the poverty line, as opposed to 12% in the United States.
They have 26.5 million cellphones for a population of 65 million people. The U.S. has 158 million phones for 295 million people.
In short, can we discard the notion of Thailand as a third world country full of impoverished brown people?
Thanks.
(Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/th.html)
posted by tkolar at 7:15 PM on March 29, 2006
I read that part of the link, Delmoi. It would have been foolish of me to only link things there that provided one side of the argument when I knew both sides existed. My point was that I am not sure how one can tell the difference between a child selling sex to help put food on the table and a child who was sold to a slaver so that the familty could put food on the table. Is there a way to tell the difference?
Is it ok for men not allowed to fuck children in their own countries going to Thailand to fuck children - paid or otherwise? If so, that would be good news for the pedophiles of South Carolina.
Most contemporary societies view sex with children as wrong. Do the men from those societies who have sex with children in Thailand get a pass because it is ok culturally in Thailand?
tkolar: So are you suggesting that the world boycott the Thai sex industry because criminals do bad things?
This is even better than Bush's anti-drug messages. Remember, "Smoking pot funds terrorism!"
Well, no. I am suggesting that there is no way of knowing whether a woman in Thailand chose to be a prostitute or not. Furthermore, I am suggesting that the "they chose that lifestyle so don't argue against it" argument is weak in light of the fact that some of them did not choose that lifestyle.
Legalize it and license it and make sure everyone who is doing it has made the choice to do it and I'm 100% cool with it. As it turns out, some aspects of prostitution are illegal in Bangkok and many of the sex workers there are not there by choice. Hey, if you want to go to Bangkok and pay somebody for sex and have no qualms about whether they are being forced to work as a prositute or not, be my guest. No terrorists will have won, though you may or may not have supported slavery.
Finally, there is a difference between buying a dimebag of pot from your local dealer (who has very likely chosen his line of work, illegal though it may be) and paying for sex with a skidnapped ixteen year old Thai girl. Surely you can see that.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:24 PM on March 29, 2006
Is it ok for men not allowed to fuck children in their own countries going to Thailand to fuck children - paid or otherwise? If so, that would be good news for the pedophiles of South Carolina.
Most contemporary societies view sex with children as wrong. Do the men from those societies who have sex with children in Thailand get a pass because it is ok culturally in Thailand?
tkolar: So are you suggesting that the world boycott the Thai sex industry because criminals do bad things?
This is even better than Bush's anti-drug messages. Remember, "Smoking pot funds terrorism!"
Well, no. I am suggesting that there is no way of knowing whether a woman in Thailand chose to be a prostitute or not. Furthermore, I am suggesting that the "they chose that lifestyle so don't argue against it" argument is weak in light of the fact that some of them did not choose that lifestyle.
Legalize it and license it and make sure everyone who is doing it has made the choice to do it and I'm 100% cool with it. As it turns out, some aspects of prostitution are illegal in Bangkok and many of the sex workers there are not there by choice. Hey, if you want to go to Bangkok and pay somebody for sex and have no qualms about whether they are being forced to work as a prositute or not, be my guest. No terrorists will have won, though you may or may not have supported slavery.
Finally, there is a difference between buying a dimebag of pot from your local dealer (who has very likely chosen his line of work, illegal though it may be) and paying for sex with a skidnapped ixteen year old Thai girl. Surely you can see that.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:24 PM on March 29, 2006
Yes, "free sex scams" and "how to treat a Thai bar girl" could easily be confused with legitimate business websites. (O, the sarcasm!)
O, the selective criticism! I was referring to the links in here: "Some are exploitative creeps. Bar girls can be sticky; some like to collect sponsors. Is true love possible? The odds are against it." Should one automatically know, clicking on "Is true love possible" that this isn't really SFW? And yes, I know I can hover and check the url. I just think it would have been an appropriate courtesy to indicate that some of the links, or rather the site they go to, was nsfw.
Bar girls can be tricky. They may lie!
posted by longsleeves at 7:26 PM on March 29, 2006
O, the selective criticism! I was referring to the links in here: "Some are exploitative creeps. Bar girls can be sticky; some like to collect sponsors. Is true love possible? The odds are against it." Should one automatically know, clicking on "Is true love possible" that this isn't really SFW? And yes, I know I can hover and check the url. I just think it would have been an appropriate courtesy to indicate that some of the links, or rather the site they go to, was nsfw.
Bar girls can be tricky. They may lie!
posted by longsleeves at 7:26 PM on March 29, 2006
What I find most funny / tragic is that in so many of these stories the guys think "with me, it's special"... and some keep thinking this all the way up to / through marriage, while even then the girl is still seeing it as "milking a good customer"...
posted by Meatbomb at 7:32 PM on March 29, 2006
posted by Meatbomb at 7:32 PM on March 29, 2006
Gah. What jokeefe, jfuller, and Decani said.
So are you suggesting that the world boycott the Thai sex industry because criminals do bad things?
Why, perish the thought! Obviously, the two things exist in entirely seperate and unrelated spheres, kind of like how all that Abu Ghraib stuff was really just a few bad apples and didn't have anything to do with official US policy at all.
posted by a louis wain cat at 7:36 PM on March 29, 2006
So are you suggesting that the world boycott the Thai sex industry because criminals do bad things?
Why, perish the thought! Obviously, the two things exist in entirely seperate and unrelated spheres, kind of like how all that Abu Ghraib stuff was really just a few bad apples and didn't have anything to do with official US policy at all.
posted by a louis wain cat at 7:36 PM on March 29, 2006
Thanks, delmoi. I was wanting to post something about Thailand being, well, just kinda *wierd* sexually, but could not put a finger on it. I am not sure that it is something you could get a sense of without having been there...hoping somebody can provide more examples of this relaxed, kinda kooky attitude towards things...?
We're talking about a country where transvestitism has been socially accepted for centuries here...
posted by delmoi at 7:54 PM on March 29, 2006
We're talking about a country where transvestitism has been socially accepted for centuries here...
posted by delmoi at 7:54 PM on March 29, 2006
a louis wain cat wrote....
Why, perish the thought! Obviously, the two things exist in entirely seperate and unrelated spheres, kind of like how all that Abu Ghraib stuff was really just a few bad apples and didn't have anything to do with official US policy at all.
I assume your point is that crime and prostitution go hand and hand, just like crime and alco... oh wait, prohibition's been repealed... just like crime and drugs?
posted by tkolar at 8:03 PM on March 29, 2006
Why, perish the thought! Obviously, the two things exist in entirely seperate and unrelated spheres, kind of like how all that Abu Ghraib stuff was really just a few bad apples and didn't have anything to do with official US policy at all.
I assume your point is that crime and prostitution go hand and hand, just like crime and alco... oh wait, prohibition's been repealed... just like crime and drugs?
posted by tkolar at 8:03 PM on March 29, 2006
What I find most funny / tragic is that in so many of these stories the guys think "with me, it's special"... and some keep thinking this all the way up to / through marriage, while even then the girl is still seeing it as "milking a good customer"...
Would it be overly cynical of me to point out that this dynamic is hardly unique to relationships in which the medium of exchange is folding cash?
posted by IshmaelGraves at 8:20 PM on March 29, 2006
Would it be overly cynical of me to point out that this dynamic is hardly unique to relationships in which the medium of exchange is folding cash?
posted by IshmaelGraves at 8:20 PM on March 29, 2006
Would it be overly cynical of me to point out that this dynamic is hardly unique to relationships in which the medium of exchange is folding cash?
Hush. We're coming to the rescue of poor, abused women here. If you connect it to the real world in any way, the whole illusion collapses and we have to admit that our generalizations are pretty much useless.
posted by tkolar at 8:29 PM on March 29, 2006
Hush. We're coming to the rescue of poor, abused women here. If you connect it to the real world in any way, the whole illusion collapses and we have to admit that our generalizations are pretty much useless.
posted by tkolar at 8:29 PM on March 29, 2006
We're talking about a country where transvestitism has been socially accepted for centuries here...
Yes, and there are heaps of ladyboys.
Another quirk is that (from memory) it is quite openly tolerated for a married man to keep a "mistress", who is effectively nothing other than a regular prostitute. In fact, having such a mistress is not a source of shame for the man unless he neglects to set her up nicely in her own apartment, buy her nice clothes & gifts etc.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:30 PM on March 29, 2006
Yes, and there are heaps of ladyboys.
Another quirk is that (from memory) it is quite openly tolerated for a married man to keep a "mistress", who is effectively nothing other than a regular prostitute. In fact, having such a mistress is not a source of shame for the man unless he neglects to set her up nicely in her own apartment, buy her nice clothes & gifts etc.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:30 PM on March 29, 2006
In short, can we discard the notion of Thailand as a third world country full of impoverished brown people?
My observations is that it's a "half and half" kind of country. In Bangkok you'll see hordes of beggars on the street near an upscale shopping mall. Homeless children next to BMWs and Lexuses. It's a real mixed bag. I imagine China to be in the same half-in, half-out phase.
As for the bar girls, I can attest to personal experience of my young and wild days. Many, many of the bars are obviously full of pros--at 5 or 6 in the evening some bars are already packed full with a mini-harem of beautiful girls who catcall the guys to come in for a drink. Other places are more subtle and much like a meat market/sports bar like you'd find in the West.
I met a girl (and yes, she was in fact a girl) who was quite cool and we hit it off. We spent a couple of days together. She wasn't a pro--we split costs for everything, though I bought her a drink every now and then--and it was a rather perfect, friends-with-benefits setup for that short time. She was a secretary at a car dealership and was planning to start her own hair salon (that's what she told me anyway). I kept an ear open and my eyes peeled for some kind of scam but it never materialized. Just a friendly, cool chick who liked Western guys. Which, of course, provides its own dangers, but I was very careful in that regard.
With all this talk about prositution, a little perspective is worthy--the experience that a lot of guys have (like mine) vs. the underage exploitation in brothels couldn't be more different. It's just the natural outcome of different cultures that have differing attitudes (to a large extent) about sex.
posted by zardoz at 8:34 PM on March 29, 2006
My observations is that it's a "half and half" kind of country. In Bangkok you'll see hordes of beggars on the street near an upscale shopping mall. Homeless children next to BMWs and Lexuses. It's a real mixed bag. I imagine China to be in the same half-in, half-out phase.
As for the bar girls, I can attest to personal experience of my young and wild days. Many, many of the bars are obviously full of pros--at 5 or 6 in the evening some bars are already packed full with a mini-harem of beautiful girls who catcall the guys to come in for a drink. Other places are more subtle and much like a meat market/sports bar like you'd find in the West.
I met a girl (and yes, she was in fact a girl) who was quite cool and we hit it off. We spent a couple of days together. She wasn't a pro--we split costs for everything, though I bought her a drink every now and then--and it was a rather perfect, friends-with-benefits setup for that short time. She was a secretary at a car dealership and was planning to start her own hair salon (that's what she told me anyway). I kept an ear open and my eyes peeled for some kind of scam but it never materialized. Just a friendly, cool chick who liked Western guys. Which, of course, provides its own dangers, but I was very careful in that regard.
With all this talk about prositution, a little perspective is worthy--the experience that a lot of guys have (like mine) vs. the underage exploitation in brothels couldn't be more different. It's just the natural outcome of different cultures that have differing attitudes (to a large extent) about sex.
posted by zardoz at 8:34 PM on March 29, 2006
Joey Micheals writes...
Well, no. I am suggesting that there is no way of knowing whether a woman in Thailand chose to be a prostitute or not.
This is true, although all Thais are required to carry their national ID, which includes a birthdate. Needless to say such things can be counterfeited.
My original point, however, was that there is a huge sex industry in Thailand. How many people should be forced out of work so that no slaves are employed? Should the honest bar girls lose their jobs because some criminal slimebags are cutting costs in a reprehensible way?
[I must mention, in researching this a bit I went out looking for articles on how johns might detect that they are dealing with slaves (other than the obvious) and was surprised to find none. Very odd, I would have expected the pro-prostitution sites to have some references. Now I'm curious.]
posted by tkolar at 8:42 PM on March 29, 2006
Well, no. I am suggesting that there is no way of knowing whether a woman in Thailand chose to be a prostitute or not.
This is true, although all Thais are required to carry their national ID, which includes a birthdate. Needless to say such things can be counterfeited.
My original point, however, was that there is a huge sex industry in Thailand. How many people should be forced out of work so that no slaves are employed? Should the honest bar girls lose their jobs because some criminal slimebags are cutting costs in a reprehensible way?
[I must mention, in researching this a bit I went out looking for articles on how johns might detect that they are dealing with slaves (other than the obvious) and was surprised to find none. Very odd, I would have expected the pro-prostitution sites to have some references. Now I'm curious.]
posted by tkolar at 8:42 PM on March 29, 2006
zardoz wrote...
My observations is that it's a "half and half" kind of country. In Bangkok...
This was my observation in Bangkok as well. But if the World Factbook has it right and the poverty rate is in fact 10%, Bangkok may very well be an exception.
Chiang-mai was certainly a lot more even in its wealth distribution...
posted by tkolar at 8:47 PM on March 29, 2006
My observations is that it's a "half and half" kind of country. In Bangkok...
This was my observation in Bangkok as well. But if the World Factbook has it right and the poverty rate is in fact 10%, Bangkok may very well be an exception.
Chiang-mai was certainly a lot more even in its wealth distribution...
posted by tkolar at 8:47 PM on March 29, 2006
Meatbomb wrote...
What I find most funny / tragic is that in so many of these stories the guys think "with me, it's special"... and some keep thinking this all the way up to / through marriage, while even then the girl is still seeing it as "milking a good customer"...
Yes, and it is particularly ironic that a set of links full of those stories has mainly resulted in people arguing about how men are taking advantage of those poor creatures. Not that we as a society have any hangups, of course...
posted by tkolar at 8:51 PM on March 29, 2006
What I find most funny / tragic is that in so many of these stories the guys think "with me, it's special"... and some keep thinking this all the way up to / through marriage, while even then the girl is still seeing it as "milking a good customer"...
Yes, and it is particularly ironic that a set of links full of those stories has mainly resulted in people arguing about how men are taking advantage of those poor creatures. Not that we as a society have any hangups, of course...
posted by tkolar at 8:51 PM on March 29, 2006
There are beggars on the street in every major city in the US.
posted by delmoi at 9:06 PM on March 29, 2006
posted by delmoi at 9:06 PM on March 29, 2006
I've always thought prostitution was depressing because it stripped the meaning from something that was supposed to have some and reduced it to the level of a business transaction. It's like paying someone to be your friend, only far worse. I don't think it should be illegal, since it doesn't hurt anyone outside the participants, but I do think it's sad.
I really can't imagine what's going through the minds of the people that go to these places for sex. Talk about setting up a spoke and hub topology for STD transmission. You can't just assume any given one has been careful about using protection (even if it's legislated), and you'd have to worry about catching any of those things that bypass condoms. And after all that, there's the land mines that the transvestites(and worse) represent. I don't even want to think about how much therapy that would cause a person to need. It all just seems like such a terribly bad idea.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:13 PM on March 29, 2006
I really can't imagine what's going through the minds of the people that go to these places for sex. Talk about setting up a spoke and hub topology for STD transmission. You can't just assume any given one has been careful about using protection (even if it's legislated), and you'd have to worry about catching any of those things that bypass condoms. And after all that, there's the land mines that the transvestites(and worse) represent. I don't even want to think about how much therapy that would cause a person to need. It all just seems like such a terribly bad idea.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:13 PM on March 29, 2006
Delmoi: In my view prostitution is no more degrading then working as a telemarketer, or cleaning toilets. Certainly not great work, but people don't act like it's 'immoral'.
Ever tried it, delmoi? You might change your mind if you had.
Oh please. Encouraging someone to be a telemarketer is degrading and insulting.
Besides, lobsters don't feel any pain when you boil them.
posted by craniac at 9:17 PM on March 29, 2006
Ever tried it, delmoi? You might change your mind if you had.
Oh please. Encouraging someone to be a telemarketer is degrading and insulting.
Besides, lobsters don't feel any pain when you boil them.
posted by craniac at 9:17 PM on March 29, 2006
"Found money: I reserve this tactic for girls with attitude, starfishes, and smelly girls..."
Starfishes? Urban Dictionary fails me on this one. Dare I ask?
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 9:24 PM on March 29, 2006
Starfishes? Urban Dictionary fails me on this one. Dare I ask?
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 9:24 PM on March 29, 2006
I assume your point is that crime and prostitution go hand and hand, just like crime and alco... oh wait, prohibition's been repealed... just like crime and drugs?
I do believe that prostitution is inherently exploitative in a patriarchal society(which would be pretty much all of them), but that's a bit beside the point, which was about the Thai sex industry in particular. My unfashionable, outdated feminist beliefs aside, the links that Joey Michaels posted indicate that Thailand, specifically, has some serious problems with regards to trafficking and slavery.
[I must mention, in researching this a bit I went out looking for articles on how johns might detect that they are dealing with slaves (other than the obvious) and was surprised to find none. Very odd, I would have expected the pro-prostitution sites to have some references. Now I'm curious.]
...and there, you have a perfect illustration of why I fall into the anti-sex industry camp. I believe that there is a reason why this is so, and it does not reflect well on the johns at all.
posted by a louis wain cat at 9:32 PM on March 29, 2006
I do believe that prostitution is inherently exploitative in a patriarchal society(which would be pretty much all of them), but that's a bit beside the point, which was about the Thai sex industry in particular. My unfashionable, outdated feminist beliefs aside, the links that Joey Michaels posted indicate that Thailand, specifically, has some serious problems with regards to trafficking and slavery.
[I must mention, in researching this a bit I went out looking for articles on how johns might detect that they are dealing with slaves (other than the obvious) and was surprised to find none. Very odd, I would have expected the pro-prostitution sites to have some references. Now I'm curious.]
...and there, you have a perfect illustration of why I fall into the anti-sex industry camp. I believe that there is a reason why this is so, and it does not reflect well on the johns at all.
posted by a louis wain cat at 9:32 PM on March 29, 2006
My god. Clearly there is a whole hell of a lot that I missed out on when I traveled through Asia. I was too busy thinking about BBQ and foreign beers to notice all the cheap sex. :-(
posted by drstein at 9:34 PM on March 29, 2006
posted by drstein at 9:34 PM on March 29, 2006
Is it ok for men not allowed to fuck children in their own countries going to Thailand to fuck children - paid or otherwise?
1 conviction in France, 4 in the UK, 14 in the US, 1 in Canada. May there be many more. "...Novel experience that will never be discovered so far from home," feh.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 9:41 PM on March 29, 2006
1 conviction in France, 4 in the UK, 14 in the US, 1 in Canada. May there be many more. "...Novel experience that will never be discovered so far from home," feh.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 9:41 PM on March 29, 2006
Could be worse, could be a katoey.That's a shitty thing to say. Kathoey are no better or worse than anyone else.
...
My favorite book on this whole topic is Patpong Sisters, by Cleo Odzer. Not really scholarly, but very insightful and compelling.
posted by jiawen at 9:51 PM on March 29, 2006
tkolar: My original point, however, was that there is a huge sex industry in Thailand. How many people should be forced out of work so that no slaves are employed? Should the honest bar girls lose their jobs because some criminal slimebags are cutting costs in a reprehensible way?
This gets back to my original point, which is that there isn't really a way to know if the bar girl you are hiring is a pro or a slave. Go to a cathouse in Nevada and they do everything they can to make sure that the girls are of legal age and are entering into the job willingly. I am 100% in support of this.
I think those would be the closest U.S. analogue to the Thai bars, though we are still talking apples and oranges here.
If the Thai government would legalize it 100% and enforce some sort of licensing system, the problem might not vanish, but sex tourists could know that the girl they were renting was legal and willing. It is a succesful business model and one that would help reduce the amount of child exploitation.
cybercoitus interruptus: Interesting information - thank you. it makes me wonder if there are other laws in the west that we can be prosecuted for if we break them in another country.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:20 PM on March 29, 2006
This gets back to my original point, which is that there isn't really a way to know if the bar girl you are hiring is a pro or a slave. Go to a cathouse in Nevada and they do everything they can to make sure that the girls are of legal age and are entering into the job willingly. I am 100% in support of this.
I think those would be the closest U.S. analogue to the Thai bars, though we are still talking apples and oranges here.
If the Thai government would legalize it 100% and enforce some sort of licensing system, the problem might not vanish, but sex tourists could know that the girl they were renting was legal and willing. It is a succesful business model and one that would help reduce the amount of child exploitation.
cybercoitus interruptus: Interesting information - thank you. it makes me wonder if there are other laws in the west that we can be prosecuted for if we break them in another country.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:20 PM on March 29, 2006
This gets back to my original point, which is that there isn't really a way to know if the bar girl you are hiring is a pro or a slave.
From what I understand, the vast majority of enslaved girls work in the rural areas for locals, rather then in the cities.
posted by delmoi at 10:29 PM on March 29, 2006
From what I understand, the vast majority of enslaved girls work in the rural areas for locals, rather then in the cities.
posted by delmoi at 10:29 PM on March 29, 2006
Everybody loves to drop the child exploitation bomb, but I'd be surprised if it's particularly common among western visitors.
Fact is that most Western men despise pedophilia and pedophiles. As such, the idea that kids are sold out of these bars seems a bit ludicrous.
For the guys out there... imagine you're at a strip club.. and all the sudden a 14 year old girl is on the stage. Would you:
a) buy a lap dance
b) quietly pretend you didn't watch a 14 year old strip
c) cause all sorts of trouble for that place
Maybe I'm just an optimist, but my money is on C.
posted by I Love Tacos at 11:45 PM on March 29, 2006
Fact is that most Western men despise pedophilia and pedophiles. As such, the idea that kids are sold out of these bars seems a bit ludicrous.
For the guys out there... imagine you're at a strip club.. and all the sudden a 14 year old girl is on the stage. Would you:
a) buy a lap dance
b) quietly pretend you didn't watch a 14 year old strip
c) cause all sorts of trouble for that place
Maybe I'm just an optimist, but my money is on C.
posted by I Love Tacos at 11:45 PM on March 29, 2006
I do believe that prostitution is inherently exploitative in a patriarchal society
What, even male prostitution?
Which particular side of the equation is being exploited when a man sells sex to another man?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:48 PM on March 29, 2006
What, even male prostitution?
Which particular side of the equation is being exploited when a man sells sex to another man?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:48 PM on March 29, 2006
Peter, where is your logic?
Patriarchy is exploitative.
Prostitution is exploitative.
Therefore, prostitution is patriarchy.
Hope this clears things up.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:37 AM on March 30, 2006
Patriarchy is exploitative.
Prostitution is exploitative.
Therefore, prostitution is patriarchy.
Hope this clears things up.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:37 AM on March 30, 2006
Let me mention the rampant Aids epidemic in Thailand.
Let me also mention I have been there, and the poverty is pretty bad especially when you get up in hill tribe territory. Not everyone is poor but poverty here and poverty there are way, way, different.
posted by konolia at 4:22 AM on March 30, 2006
Let me also mention I have been there, and the poverty is pretty bad especially when you get up in hill tribe territory. Not everyone is poor but poverty here and poverty there are way, way, different.
posted by konolia at 4:22 AM on March 30, 2006
Let me mention the rampant Aids epidemic in Thailand.
Let me mention that Kolonia is full of shit.
"There are very few developing countries in the world where public policy has been effective in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS on a national scale, but Thailand is an exception. A massive programme to control HIV has reduced visits to commercial sex workers by half, raised condom usage, decreased STDs (Sexually Transmitted Diseases) dramatically, and achieved substantial reductions in new HIV infections."
posted by magullo at 4:56 AM on March 30, 2006
Let me mention that Kolonia is full of shit.
"There are very few developing countries in the world where public policy has been effective in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS on a national scale, but Thailand is an exception. A massive programme to control HIV has reduced visits to commercial sex workers by half, raised condom usage, decreased STDs (Sexually Transmitted Diseases) dramatically, and achieved substantial reductions in new HIV infections."
posted by magullo at 4:56 AM on March 30, 2006
When I went to Thailand one of the people on our trip was a medical doctor who was going to be going to an Aids conference while there.
So you can look at a bar girl and know whether she carries the virus? Good luck with that.
posted by konolia at 5:44 AM on March 30, 2006
So you can look at a bar girl and know whether she carries the virus? Good luck with that.
posted by konolia at 5:44 AM on March 30, 2006
The timing of this is wild. A salesguy at my office just quit his job after coming back married on a brief visit to Thailand so he can go back here and "live like a king" on his american money.
posted by dr_dank at 6:59 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by dr_dank at 6:59 AM on March 30, 2006
"In seedy and impoverished Manila, the bars were the fast-buck stuff of a puritan's nightmare; while in high-tech and prosperous Bangkok, they were quicksilver riddles, less alarming for their sleaze than for their cunning refinement, established by the country's exquisite sense of design, softened by the ease of Buddhism, invigorated by the culture of 'sanuk' (a good time). In Manila girls tried to sell themselves out of sheer desperation; in Bangkok, the crystal palaces of sex were only extra adornments in a bejeweled city that already glittered with ambiguities…In Bangkok, moreover, the ambivalence of the girls only intensified the ambiguity of the bars…no gaze was direct, and no smile clear-cut in the city of mirrors. And the mirrors were everywhere: one way mirrors walling the massage parlors, mirrors lining the ceilings of the 'curtain hotels,' mirrors shimmering in the bars, pocket mirrors in which each girl converted herself into a reflection of her admirer's wishes. Look into a bar girl's eyes, and you'd see nothing but the image of your own needs; ask her what she wanted, and she'd flash back a transparent 'up to you.' Everything here was in the eye of the beholder; everything was just a trick of the light." Pico Iyer, Video Night In Kathmandu
posted by jrb223 at 7:33 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by jrb223 at 7:33 AM on March 30, 2006
Great post.
I never bought into the whole exploitation thing. There's this desperate need for some to declare that sex is sacred and must be protected from market forces but this is just their problem. There's no logical reason why sex, like most everything else, shouldn't be subjected to the laws of supply and demand. The most interesting thing about the stories on the site really is the confuzzlement between "girlfriends" and "prostitutes."
posted by nixerman at 7:52 AM on March 30, 2006
I never bought into the whole exploitation thing. There's this desperate need for some to declare that sex is sacred and must be protected from market forces but this is just their problem. There's no logical reason why sex, like most everything else, shouldn't be subjected to the laws of supply and demand. The most interesting thing about the stories on the site really is the confuzzlement between "girlfriends" and "prostitutes."
posted by nixerman at 7:52 AM on March 30, 2006
When I was in Bangkok, I felt really sorry for the pretty young Thai women on the arms of fugly, fat old white guys. I understand that, whether girlfriends or not, they are being paid for, and as long as it's consensual, I suppose it's fair transaction. Still, it bummed me out to see such beautiful young women with dumpy old dudes. You're only young and beautiful once. It's sad to me that these young women see being the arm candy for some western guy as the best "career" move they could make.
For the guys out there... imagine you're at a strip club.. and all the sudden a 14 year old girl is on the stage. Would you:
a) buy a lap dance
b) quietly pretend you didn't watch a 14 year old strip
c) cause all sorts of trouble for that place
Maybe I'm just an optimist, but my money is on C.
posted by I Love Tacos at 11:45 PM PST on March 29 [!]
Yes, I would say you're a bit overly optimistic there. Not to toot my own horn, but I was pretty hot when I was 14 and I flaunted it. There were a hell of a lot of adult men who knew goddamn well how old I was who wanted to date and/or have sex with me.
posted by apis mellifera at 8:07 AM on March 30, 2006
For the guys out there... imagine you're at a strip club.. and all the sudden a 14 year old girl is on the stage. Would you:
a) buy a lap dance
b) quietly pretend you didn't watch a 14 year old strip
c) cause all sorts of trouble for that place
Maybe I'm just an optimist, but my money is on C.
posted by I Love Tacos at 11:45 PM PST on March 29 [!]
Yes, I would say you're a bit overly optimistic there. Not to toot my own horn, but I was pretty hot when I was 14 and I flaunted it. There were a hell of a lot of adult men who knew goddamn well how old I was who wanted to date and/or have sex with me.
posted by apis mellifera at 8:07 AM on March 30, 2006
nixerman wrote...
There's this desperate need for some to declare that sex is sacred
I suspect that it's more than just a sex is sacred thing.
Talking to opponents of prostitution often feels like talking to opponents of homosexuality. They feel in their heart of hearts that prostitution is evil, and no amount of facts, figures or quotations is going to alter that.
Fair enough. People don't need to defend their heart of hearts.
The only issue is when they decide that they need to inflict their views on large numbers of people who disagree with them. The same issues always arise (it's an aberration, it's forced on people, children are being molested) like clockwork. It seems to be a script that humans play out when we know something is evil, but we're having a hard time explaining why two consenting adults shouldn't do it.
Anyways, this is all OT. Just musing in the morning.
posted by tkolar at 8:40 AM on March 30, 2006 [1 favorite]
There's this desperate need for some to declare that sex is sacred
I suspect that it's more than just a sex is sacred thing.
Talking to opponents of prostitution often feels like talking to opponents of homosexuality. They feel in their heart of hearts that prostitution is evil, and no amount of facts, figures or quotations is going to alter that.
Fair enough. People don't need to defend their heart of hearts.
The only issue is when they decide that they need to inflict their views on large numbers of people who disagree with them. The same issues always arise (it's an aberration, it's forced on people, children are being molested) like clockwork. It seems to be a script that humans play out when we know something is evil, but we're having a hard time explaining why two consenting adults shouldn't do it.
Anyways, this is all OT. Just musing in the morning.
posted by tkolar at 8:40 AM on March 30, 2006 [1 favorite]
Remember that 14 year olds are fully developed sexual beings. The only reason that adults aren't allowed to have sex with them is the idea that 14 year olds can't give proper consent. Is that idea backed by cognitive development research? I'd assume so.
posted by Firas at 9:01 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by Firas at 9:01 AM on March 30, 2006
Talking to opponents of prostitution often feels like talking to opponents of homosexuality. They feel in their heart of hearts that prostitution is evil, and no amount of facts, figures or quotations is going to alter that.
Fair enough. People don't need to defend their heart of hearts.
The only issue is when they decide that they need to inflict their views on large numbers of people who disagree with them. The same issues always arise (it's an aberration, it's forced on people, children are being molested) like clockwork. It seems to be a script that humans play out when we know something is evil, but we're having a hard time explaining why two consenting adults shouldn't do it.
It's not a matter of arguing that it's "evil". It's a matter of looking at the larger social dynamic at work here, and questioning whether the relationship between a prostitute and a client, in the abstract (and not the particular, which is important) can ever be exactly consensual, because consent implies equality. When only one party has the economic power in the transaction, then they are, broadly speaking, unequal. This state of things-- where men have economic power and women provide sexual services in exchange for money-- is so normalized in our society, and has been for so long, that it doesn't appear odd to us. But it is weird. Why does this huge social mechanism exist to offer men sexual satisfaction, at what I think we can agree is often a high cost for the women (and men) who participate in the industry?
I'd rather talk about this whole thing at that level, because when you get down to individual stories, of course it gets complicated and confusing, and for every documented study of sexual slavery in any part of the world there is another rash of anecdotes of women "milking" their customers for money. (And who can blame them, really?)
I think prostitution in general of the type we are discussing here is a bad thing, yes. I do know women who have worked as escorts, for agencies where their safety was treated as paramount and where their customers paid very, very well. At least one found the experience deeply personally destructive, despite all that (she was incredulous one day to hear one of her regulars say, 'I wish I could have your life, just having sex for money all day', because it implied his complete ignorance of its emotional cost for her). But again, for every study which links prostitution to drug addiction and social dislocation and so on, there are going to be a handful of anecdotes about women who worked happily in brothels in Nevada and sent their kids to private school. Fine. What I'm interested in is why prostitution exists in the first place-- and no, flippant answers about male sex drives and so on don't help.
posted by jokeefe at 10:43 AM on March 30, 2006
Fair enough. People don't need to defend their heart of hearts.
The only issue is when they decide that they need to inflict their views on large numbers of people who disagree with them. The same issues always arise (it's an aberration, it's forced on people, children are being molested) like clockwork. It seems to be a script that humans play out when we know something is evil, but we're having a hard time explaining why two consenting adults shouldn't do it.
It's not a matter of arguing that it's "evil". It's a matter of looking at the larger social dynamic at work here, and questioning whether the relationship between a prostitute and a client, in the abstract (and not the particular, which is important) can ever be exactly consensual, because consent implies equality. When only one party has the economic power in the transaction, then they are, broadly speaking, unequal. This state of things-- where men have economic power and women provide sexual services in exchange for money-- is so normalized in our society, and has been for so long, that it doesn't appear odd to us. But it is weird. Why does this huge social mechanism exist to offer men sexual satisfaction, at what I think we can agree is often a high cost for the women (and men) who participate in the industry?
I'd rather talk about this whole thing at that level, because when you get down to individual stories, of course it gets complicated and confusing, and for every documented study of sexual slavery in any part of the world there is another rash of anecdotes of women "milking" their customers for money. (And who can blame them, really?)
I think prostitution in general of the type we are discussing here is a bad thing, yes. I do know women who have worked as escorts, for agencies where their safety was treated as paramount and where their customers paid very, very well. At least one found the experience deeply personally destructive, despite all that (she was incredulous one day to hear one of her regulars say, 'I wish I could have your life, just having sex for money all day', because it implied his complete ignorance of its emotional cost for her). But again, for every study which links prostitution to drug addiction and social dislocation and so on, there are going to be a handful of anecdotes about women who worked happily in brothels in Nevada and sent their kids to private school. Fine. What I'm interested in is why prostitution exists in the first place-- and no, flippant answers about male sex drives and so on don't help.
posted by jokeefe at 10:43 AM on March 30, 2006
I was pretty hot when I was 14 and I flaunted it. There were a hell of a lot of adult men who knew goddamn well how old I was who wanted to date and/or have sex with me.
I was having sex when I was 14, and was busily cutting notches on my bedpost, too.
I guess my question here is really to do with this model and why it's so entrenched:
1. Women have something men want.
2. Men want to get it, so they exchange money or social position or bribes for it.
3 Women profit (temporarily).
There's just no room in that equation for women to be autonomous sexual beings with their own desires, you know?
Anyway, I should get some work done.
posted by jokeefe at 10:49 AM on March 30, 2006
I was having sex when I was 14, and was busily cutting notches on my bedpost, too.
I guess my question here is really to do with this model and why it's so entrenched:
1. Women have something men want.
2. Men want to get it, so they exchange money or social position or bribes for it.
3 Women profit (temporarily).
There's just no room in that equation for women to be autonomous sexual beings with their own desires, you know?
Anyway, I should get some work done.
posted by jokeefe at 10:49 AM on March 30, 2006
I'll take a stab at your question, jokeefe. Why does prostitution exist? Because at its most basic level it is a convenient way to satisfy an urge.
To elucidate. The urge for sex sits in the same landscape as other biological urges. Drugs, affection, food, satisfaction. All nice things to have but easily addictive and abused.
posted by surplus at 10:57 AM on March 30, 2006
To elucidate. The urge for sex sits in the same landscape as other biological urges. Drugs, affection, food, satisfaction. All nice things to have but easily addictive and abused.
posted by surplus at 10:57 AM on March 30, 2006
jokeefe, I think the feminist inquiry you're putting forth for the existence of prostitution isn't as favoured by 'go for the simplest possible theory' way of analysis as the 'A wants x and will provide y for it, B wants y and will provide x for it' explanation, ie., trade is a basic solution to certain situations. The feminist inquiry doesn't cover male-male prostitution either. So it's an important question, but is unlikely to be the most satisfying answer for the question of "why does this activity exist."
posted by Firas at 11:07 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by Firas at 11:07 AM on March 30, 2006
But I do think that in a world that didn't socialize women into different roles than it did men, there would be more balance in the proportion of male and female clientele of the opposite gender's prostitution.
posted by Firas at 11:12 AM on March 30, 2006
posted by Firas at 11:12 AM on March 30, 2006
jokeefe wrote...
What I'm interested in is why prostitution exists in the first place-- and no, flippant answers about male sex drives and so on don't help.
I don't think there's much of a mystery about why men would be interested in prostitutes. The idea of "I want something, and I'm willing to barter for it" is a basic building block of human relations. You want a nice meal? You pay for it. You want a nice house? You pay for it. You want sex with no emotional strings attached, and maybe for a woman to tell you how great you are in bed? You can pay for that too.
(and don't tell me that women don't pay to be emotionally pampered. I've been to too many spas for that)
I believe (and do correct me if I'm wrong) that your question is really about why women would be interested in being prostitutes. As far as I can tell, this breaks down into three categories:
1) Adventure. Daddy's litte girl is all grown up and wants to play naughty. My mother worked as a student counselor at CMU for years, and encountered many of these young women.
2) Pay Scale. A woman working as a prostitute is capable of making more money per hour than any other job, male or female, especially in the 18-25 age range. Sure, she could work the drive-through window with the men her age, but she's got a unique earning opportunity here.
3) It's the only game in town. This is where things get icky, where virtually the only opportunity open to women is to become prostitutes. There are places in the world that are like this, although Thailand is not one of them.
The proto-feminist take on prostitution has usually been that that nature of our society makes #3 the inevitable and only case, with the other two being instances of women fooling themselves. Some have gone as far as to say that all male-female sex is actually prostitution.
I flatly reject this reasoning, as it implies that women are somehow robotlike creatures who carry out their social programming, but -- and this is the kicker -- men aren't.
The idea that men have access to a free will and decision making power that women do not possess just does not match up to what I've experienced in the world. Anyone who believes that women aren't capable of defying social expectations and setting their own course simply hasn't been paying attention for the last 40 years or so.
In any case, I've gone off on a lot of 'if's here. It's not my intention to strawman, simply to anticipate. My apologies if I've misunderstood where you were going with this.
posted by tkolar at 11:57 AM on March 30, 2006
What I'm interested in is why prostitution exists in the first place-- and no, flippant answers about male sex drives and so on don't help.
I don't think there's much of a mystery about why men would be interested in prostitutes. The idea of "I want something, and I'm willing to barter for it" is a basic building block of human relations. You want a nice meal? You pay for it. You want a nice house? You pay for it. You want sex with no emotional strings attached, and maybe for a woman to tell you how great you are in bed? You can pay for that too.
(and don't tell me that women don't pay to be emotionally pampered. I've been to too many spas for that)
I believe (and do correct me if I'm wrong) that your question is really about why women would be interested in being prostitutes. As far as I can tell, this breaks down into three categories:
1) Adventure. Daddy's litte girl is all grown up and wants to play naughty. My mother worked as a student counselor at CMU for years, and encountered many of these young women.
2) Pay Scale. A woman working as a prostitute is capable of making more money per hour than any other job, male or female, especially in the 18-25 age range. Sure, she could work the drive-through window with the men her age, but she's got a unique earning opportunity here.
3) It's the only game in town. This is where things get icky, where virtually the only opportunity open to women is to become prostitutes. There are places in the world that are like this, although Thailand is not one of them.
The proto-feminist take on prostitution has usually been that that nature of our society makes #3 the inevitable and only case, with the other two being instances of women fooling themselves. Some have gone as far as to say that all male-female sex is actually prostitution.
I flatly reject this reasoning, as it implies that women are somehow robotlike creatures who carry out their social programming, but -- and this is the kicker -- men aren't.
The idea that men have access to a free will and decision making power that women do not possess just does not match up to what I've experienced in the world. Anyone who believes that women aren't capable of defying social expectations and setting their own course simply hasn't been paying attention for the last 40 years or so.
In any case, I've gone off on a lot of 'if's here. It's not my intention to strawman, simply to anticipate. My apologies if I've misunderstood where you were going with this.
posted by tkolar at 11:57 AM on March 30, 2006
My apologies if I've misunderstood where you were going with this
Just wondering out loud, mostly. Surely there's a model of social relations out there that isn't built on payment?
posted by jokeefe at 12:13 PM on March 30, 2006
Just wondering out loud, mostly. Surely there's a model of social relations out there that isn't built on payment?
posted by jokeefe at 12:13 PM on March 30, 2006
If you can't get laid without a prostitute, there is a problem somewhere in your life. Either you're fat, an idiot, or married. In all cases the burden should be on your shoulders, not poor teenagers in Southeast Asia. But money buys a lot of things.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:26 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:26 PM on March 30, 2006
The Jesse Helms writes...
If you can't get laid without a prostitute...
This reflects a very simplistic view of why men would visit a prostitute. If were simply matter of find a most, warm hole, thrust and repeat, most men would stick with livestock.
posted by tkolar at 12:28 PM on March 30, 2006
If you can't get laid without a prostitute...
This reflects a very simplistic view of why men would visit a prostitute. If were simply matter of find a most, warm hole, thrust and repeat, most men would stick with livestock.
posted by tkolar at 12:28 PM on March 30, 2006
Sigh... "If it were simply a matter of find a moist warm..."
posted by tkolar at 12:29 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by tkolar at 12:29 PM on March 30, 2006
tkolar, the last time I tried getting a blowjob from Dolly I was rushed to the emergency room.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:33 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:33 PM on March 30, 2006
I guess my question here is really to do with this model and why it's so entrenched:
1. Women have something men want.
2. Men want to get it, so they exchange money or social position or bribes for it.
3 Women profit (temporarily).
There's just no room in that equation for women to be autonomous sexual beings with their own desires, you know?
Well, sure there is. I'm confident that there are a fair number of prostitutes who are sexually aroused by the fact that people are willing to pay them for sex. There also appear to be a fair number of prostitutes that limit their services to acts that they prefer, dominatrices for example. I don't think that either of these cover the majority of prostitutes, but I think they exist in significant numbers.
But even if there weren't, it's not the only equation in town.
Surely there's a model of social relations out there that isn't built on payment?
Wouldn't that be the model that encompasses sex that isn't paid for?
posted by me & my monkey at 12:36 PM on March 30, 2006
1. Women have something men want.
2. Men want to get it, so they exchange money or social position or bribes for it.
3 Women profit (temporarily).
There's just no room in that equation for women to be autonomous sexual beings with their own desires, you know?
Well, sure there is. I'm confident that there are a fair number of prostitutes who are sexually aroused by the fact that people are willing to pay them for sex. There also appear to be a fair number of prostitutes that limit their services to acts that they prefer, dominatrices for example. I don't think that either of these cover the majority of prostitutes, but I think they exist in significant numbers.
But even if there weren't, it's not the only equation in town.
Surely there's a model of social relations out there that isn't built on payment?
Wouldn't that be the model that encompasses sex that isn't paid for?
posted by me & my monkey at 12:36 PM on March 30, 2006
If you patronize a prostitute there is something fucked up in your life. And you are a louse for dealing it with it by keeping a young girl in bondage.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:37 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:37 PM on March 30, 2006
jokeefe wrote...
Surely there's a model of social relations out there that isn't built on payment?
I'd say that business transactions are a subset of social relations. Business transactions pretty much involve barter of some kind or another, but there are plenty of other types of social relations.
Prostitution definitely blurs some lines here. In my own life I've found these same lines blurred with therapy, where I can have a supporting, kind person listen to me unburden my problems for hours on end -- but if I stopped paying him, it would come to a screeching halt.
Mixing money with human emotions is very weird territory.
posted by tkolar at 12:39 PM on March 30, 2006
Surely there's a model of social relations out there that isn't built on payment?
I'd say that business transactions are a subset of social relations. Business transactions pretty much involve barter of some kind or another, but there are plenty of other types of social relations.
Prostitution definitely blurs some lines here. In my own life I've found these same lines blurred with therapy, where I can have a supporting, kind person listen to me unburden my problems for hours on end -- but if I stopped paying him, it would come to a screeching halt.
Mixing money with human emotions is very weird territory.
posted by tkolar at 12:39 PM on March 30, 2006
The Jessy Helms (living up to his name) wrote...
And you are a louse for dealing it with it by keeping a young girl in bondage.
What if I pay her to keep me in bondage?
Just askin'.
posted by tkolar at 12:44 PM on March 30, 2006
And you are a louse for dealing it with it by keeping a young girl in bondage.
What if I pay her to keep me in bondage?
Just askin'.
posted by tkolar at 12:44 PM on March 30, 2006
If you patronize a prostitute there is something fucked up in your life.
That's why they call it "vice." But, as vices go, it seems to be pretty common, so it's unlikely that moral suasion in general or your disgust in particular will stop it. And, as vices go, it seems to be relatively minor.
And you are a louse for dealing it with it by keeping a young girl in bondage.
I've patronized prostitutes twice. In both cases, they were older than I was, and I suspect that both were as well-off financially as I was, at least. Their hourly rate was certainly higher than mine.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:37 PM on March 30, 2006
That's why they call it "vice." But, as vices go, it seems to be pretty common, so it's unlikely that moral suasion in general or your disgust in particular will stop it. And, as vices go, it seems to be relatively minor.
And you are a louse for dealing it with it by keeping a young girl in bondage.
I've patronized prostitutes twice. In both cases, they were older than I was, and I suspect that both were as well-off financially as I was, at least. Their hourly rate was certainly higher than mine.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:37 PM on March 30, 2006
Regarding sex at 14 as commented on earlier, in many places it is entirely legal for adults to have sex with someone of that age.
Interesting that a 14 year old cannot legally dance at a strip bar for older men, but could go home and have sex with them instead.
posted by skinnydipp at 2:16 PM on March 30, 2006
Interesting that a 14 year old cannot legally dance at a strip bar for older men, but could go home and have sex with them instead.
posted by skinnydipp at 2:16 PM on March 30, 2006
I'm confident that there are a fair number of prostitutes who are sexually aroused by the fact that people are willing to pay them for sex.
I think this is what I was referring to earlier (or maybe I didn't get to that bit) about the mental gymnastics that many men seem to employ when it comes to rationalizing going to prostitutes.
You might want to talk to people who work in the industry.
posted by jokeefe at 3:58 PM on March 30, 2006
I think this is what I was referring to earlier (or maybe I didn't get to that bit) about the mental gymnastics that many men seem to employ when it comes to rationalizing going to prostitutes.
You might want to talk to people who work in the industry.
posted by jokeefe at 3:58 PM on March 30, 2006
jokeefe writes...
You might want to talk to people who work in the industry.
Does talking to their therapist count?
Wielding power is very sexy for some people. Wielding power over men, particularly obstensibly powerful men, can be even sexier for some young women.
I invited you earlier to prop up this thread with some websites where prostitutes talk about their side of the story, and I still wish you would. The stories I've found and read often start out with talk of enjoying the power, enjoying being an object of desire, before they trail off into the inevitable emotional burnout.
posted by tkolar at 4:19 PM on March 30, 2006
I'm confident that there are a fair number of prostitutes who are sexually aroused by the fact that people are willing to pay them for sex.I think this is what I was referring to earlier (or maybe I didn't get to that bit) about the mental gymnastics that many men seem to employ when it comes to rationalizing going to prostitutes.
You might want to talk to people who work in the industry.
Does talking to their therapist count?
Wielding power is very sexy for some people. Wielding power over men, particularly obstensibly powerful men, can be even sexier for some young women.
I invited you earlier to prop up this thread with some websites where prostitutes talk about their side of the story, and I still wish you would. The stories I've found and read often start out with talk of enjoying the power, enjoying being an object of desire, before they trail off into the inevitable emotional burnout.
posted by tkolar at 4:19 PM on March 30, 2006
If were simply matter of find a most, warm hole, thrust and repeat, most men would stick with livestock.
It's not easy finding sheep in the city.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 4:50 PM on March 30, 2006
It's not easy finding sheep in the city.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 4:50 PM on March 30, 2006
prop up this thread with some websites where prostitutes talk about their side of the story, and I still wish you would. The stories I've found and read often start out with talk of enjoying the power, enjoying being an object of desire, before they trail off into the inevitable emotional burnout.
Getting enjoyment (which is not the same thing as sexual arousal) out of men's willingness to pay them for sex can, in fact, co-exist with faking orgasms as part of the job. Jeannette Angell's Callgirl discusses "enjoying the power, enjoying being an object of desire" in her early callgirl days. She also makes the point throughout the book that for her and most of her colleagues, most of the time, sex with clients was just a job. Meaning, most of the time, she pretended to have orgasms for men who were too insecure and ego-driven to figure out that making them feel like studs, no matter how sexually selfish they really were, was what they were paying her to do. (Yes, there were a couple of clients who really were good in bed, but she talks about many more of the other kind.)
I tried to find excerpts to illustrate, but the only excerpt I could find is from her first chapter, describing how she made the decision to become a callgirl in the first place.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 5:40 PM on March 30, 2006 [1 favorite]
Getting enjoyment (which is not the same thing as sexual arousal) out of men's willingness to pay them for sex can, in fact, co-exist with faking orgasms as part of the job. Jeannette Angell's Callgirl discusses "enjoying the power, enjoying being an object of desire" in her early callgirl days. She also makes the point throughout the book that for her and most of her colleagues, most of the time, sex with clients was just a job. Meaning, most of the time, she pretended to have orgasms for men who were too insecure and ego-driven to figure out that making them feel like studs, no matter how sexually selfish they really were, was what they were paying her to do. (Yes, there were a couple of clients who really were good in bed, but she talks about many more of the other kind.)
I tried to find excerpts to illustrate, but the only excerpt I could find is from her first chapter, describing how she made the decision to become a callgirl in the first place.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 5:40 PM on March 30, 2006 [1 favorite]
An old friend of mine found out some time ago that, one by one, three women he dated had at one time or another turned a trick or two. (really did his head in -- he kept wondering if there was something wrong with him that he kept choosing these women, or if this was far more common than either of us had guessed) The explanations in all three cases boiled down to the same thing: power. They liked being flirted with, chased, and they fantasized about being so desirable that men would pay them for sex. Then, unlike most women (I would think), they followed through. Money was not an issue, except as emotional payoff. I suppose it would be different to do that day in day out as a job (the way any voluntary activity can be when turned into a means to pay bills) but take it for what it's worth.
posted by dreamsign at 7:32 PM on March 30, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by dreamsign at 7:32 PM on March 30, 2006 [1 favorite]
Sorry to be late to the party.
Those guys live in their own constructed universe is all I can say. This is like a mutual support group where people who can't talk to their friends and colleagues (who would find their behaviour shameful) get to share their self-justifications for reinforcement.
As to the exploitation angle, I think we could draw one of those consultant four way matrices. One axis would have "driven by economic/external compulsion" vs "freely chosen profession". And the other would have "suffers emotional harm from forced pseudo-intimacy" vs "happily employed". I'd bet that you could find sex workers in all four squares. I'd also bet that nonetheless, a large number, perhaps a majority, are in the external compulsion/emotional harm square.
Specifically addressing tkolar, your Mum's clients are hardly a representative sample. Likewise, the online writing you have read not only may not be representative, but quite likely has a role as marketing/wank-material for potential clients.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:28 PM on March 30, 2006
Those guys live in their own constructed universe is all I can say. This is like a mutual support group where people who can't talk to their friends and colleagues (who would find their behaviour shameful) get to share their self-justifications for reinforcement.
As to the exploitation angle, I think we could draw one of those consultant four way matrices. One axis would have "driven by economic/external compulsion" vs "freely chosen profession". And the other would have "suffers emotional harm from forced pseudo-intimacy" vs "happily employed". I'd bet that you could find sex workers in all four squares. I'd also bet that nonetheless, a large number, perhaps a majority, are in the external compulsion/emotional harm square.
Specifically addressing tkolar, your Mum's clients are hardly a representative sample. Likewise, the online writing you have read not only may not be representative, but quite likely has a role as marketing/wank-material for potential clients.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:28 PM on March 30, 2006
For those interested, a fictional perspective is in Nick McDonell's 'The Third Brother'.
posted by d-no at 10:06 PM on March 30, 2006
posted by d-no at 10:06 PM on March 30, 2006
i_am_joe's_spleen writes...
This is like a mutual support group where people who can't talk to their friends and colleagues (who would find their behaviour shameful) get to share their self-justifications for reinforcement.
Yeah, prostitution is pretty much in the same place homosexuality was in 30 years ago.
Shameful secrets, repression, society at large "knowing" that homosexuality was a deep dark sin, practiced by sad, pathetic and often outright evil individuals.
And joe schmoe on the street "knew" all about them homos. Come to think of it, from my time working blue collar in Pittsburgh, I can tell you that joe schmoe on the street still does "know" all about them homos.
While I don't find prostitutes (or men, for that matter) particularly sexually interesting, I'll fight for your right to fuck them all day long if you're not hurting anyone.
Specifically addressing tkolar, your Mum's clients are hardly a representative sample.
Really? Why not? The proposition has been put forth that prostitution is an evil practice that always oppresses the prostitute. I can tell you for certain that the women my mother counseled at CMU had their counterparts over at UPitt, and I'm pretty sure at every other major University -- it wasn't just a CMU thing, if that's what you're implying.
I don't think anyone at any time on this thread has suggested that fucking a crack addict in a portapotty for $20 is a moral or ethical thing to do. Then again, nobody here would purposefully buy from a sweatshop, either.
Likewise, the online writing you have read not only may not be representative, but quite likely has a role as marketing/wank-material for potential clients.
Please. If you'd like to talk about this, I find it an interesting topic. Let's start with the idea that both of us have a certain amount of common sense.
I'd also bet that nonetheless, a large number, perhaps a majority, are in the external compulsion/emotional harm square.
Emotional wear and tear (I'll stop short of harm) appears to be endemic, through everything I've read. Prostitutes don't burn out as quickly as people in call centers, but its in the same ballpark. "Happily Employed" is not a phrase I apply to many people in this world.
Compulsory vs. Freely Chosen: Up until a few years ago, I "knew" that most prostitution was compulsory. After chatting with a number of therapists (including good old mom) in a variety of settings, I revised my view to include the fact that there is an awful lot of prostitution going on in the wealthier (read: both client and prostitute can afford private therapists) classes.
Having made room in my worldview for a very large group of well educated high-class prostitutes, I still clung to the fact that in third world countries people were forced into prostitution. I still do cling to this fact, actually.
The bargirls of Bangkok are a different matter, however. First, as I mentioned before in this thread, Thailand is not a third world country. Second, as many a farang has found out (see the links), these are not naive country girls. Last, I can't claim to understand the Thai people, but from what I've read about their culture, sex is ...different. Whether that's good or bad I don't know, but I do know that judging their actions from Western culture's point of view is not going to work.
My personal point of view, however, is that whatever goes on between consenting adults is their own business. People who are fighting to prohibit prostitution are not only fighting an impossible battle, they are also fighting an immoral one.
posted by tkolar at 10:48 PM on March 30, 2006
This is like a mutual support group where people who can't talk to their friends and colleagues (who would find their behaviour shameful) get to share their self-justifications for reinforcement.
Yeah, prostitution is pretty much in the same place homosexuality was in 30 years ago.
Shameful secrets, repression, society at large "knowing" that homosexuality was a deep dark sin, practiced by sad, pathetic and often outright evil individuals.
And joe schmoe on the street "knew" all about them homos. Come to think of it, from my time working blue collar in Pittsburgh, I can tell you that joe schmoe on the street still does "know" all about them homos.
While I don't find prostitutes (or men, for that matter) particularly sexually interesting, I'll fight for your right to fuck them all day long if you're not hurting anyone.
Specifically addressing tkolar, your Mum's clients are hardly a representative sample.
Really? Why not? The proposition has been put forth that prostitution is an evil practice that always oppresses the prostitute. I can tell you for certain that the women my mother counseled at CMU had their counterparts over at UPitt, and I'm pretty sure at every other major University -- it wasn't just a CMU thing, if that's what you're implying.
I don't think anyone at any time on this thread has suggested that fucking a crack addict in a portapotty for $20 is a moral or ethical thing to do. Then again, nobody here would purposefully buy from a sweatshop, either.
Likewise, the online writing you have read not only may not be representative, but quite likely has a role as marketing/wank-material for potential clients.
Please. If you'd like to talk about this, I find it an interesting topic. Let's start with the idea that both of us have a certain amount of common sense.
I'd also bet that nonetheless, a large number, perhaps a majority, are in the external compulsion/emotional harm square.
Emotional wear and tear (I'll stop short of harm) appears to be endemic, through everything I've read. Prostitutes don't burn out as quickly as people in call centers, but its in the same ballpark. "Happily Employed" is not a phrase I apply to many people in this world.
Compulsory vs. Freely Chosen: Up until a few years ago, I "knew" that most prostitution was compulsory. After chatting with a number of therapists (including good old mom) in a variety of settings, I revised my view to include the fact that there is an awful lot of prostitution going on in the wealthier (read: both client and prostitute can afford private therapists) classes.
Having made room in my worldview for a very large group of well educated high-class prostitutes, I still clung to the fact that in third world countries people were forced into prostitution. I still do cling to this fact, actually.
The bargirls of Bangkok are a different matter, however. First, as I mentioned before in this thread, Thailand is not a third world country. Second, as many a farang has found out (see the links), these are not naive country girls. Last, I can't claim to understand the Thai people, but from what I've read about their culture, sex is ...different. Whether that's good or bad I don't know, but I do know that judging their actions from Western culture's point of view is not going to work.
My personal point of view, however, is that whatever goes on between consenting adults is their own business. People who are fighting to prohibit prostitution are not only fighting an impossible battle, they are also fighting an immoral one.
posted by tkolar at 10:48 PM on March 30, 2006
When I was in thailand I mainly partied with backpackers, fullmoon party ect, I thought I all the thai girls would want money. But I found out that you just have to go to the late clubs or beach raves and alot of the thai girls there just wanted to have fun, buy them some drinks, but thats it. Earlier in the evening you might have seen the same girl at one of the barfine bars, but those all shut down at around 1 or so. So im pretty sure they would be classed as prostitutes, but I didnt care, we all had a good time.
So Im pretty sure all the girls are not slaves. From what I heard most of the slavery is for the locals in the countryside in thailand and cambodia. If they speak english well I would think they wouldn't be a slave for too much longer.
posted by Iax at 11:49 PM on March 30, 2006
So Im pretty sure all the girls are not slaves. From what I heard most of the slavery is for the locals in the countryside in thailand and cambodia. If they speak english well I would think they wouldn't be a slave for too much longer.
posted by Iax at 11:49 PM on March 30, 2006
it wasn't just a CMU thing, if that's what you're implying.
No, I was implying that university students in the US are an atypical group.
whatever goes on between consenting adults is their own business.
I think just about every Mefite would agree with that. The issues are a) does informed consent exist in a context of extreme economic pressures and b) people who exercise informed consent can still make make what look like bad decisions to others, and we can feel concerned about them. There are many people in our lives where we can say "X is a grown-up and whatever X does is up to X" and yet still worry about X's welfare. Certainly when I have discovered people I knew were on the game it gave me cause for concern and in a couple of cases that turned out to be entirely justified.
When I mentioned online writing, I was thinking of Belle de Jour, or Nancy Whatserface on Salon, both of which are in a direct line from Fanny Hill if you ask me, ie written mainly for the prurient interest of the reader.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:08 AM on March 31, 2006
No, I was implying that university students in the US are an atypical group.
whatever goes on between consenting adults is their own business.
I think just about every Mefite would agree with that. The issues are a) does informed consent exist in a context of extreme economic pressures and b) people who exercise informed consent can still make make what look like bad decisions to others, and we can feel concerned about them. There are many people in our lives where we can say "X is a grown-up and whatever X does is up to X" and yet still worry about X's welfare. Certainly when I have discovered people I knew were on the game it gave me cause for concern and in a couple of cases that turned out to be entirely justified.
When I mentioned online writing, I was thinking of Belle de Jour, or Nancy Whatserface on Salon, both of which are in a direct line from Fanny Hill if you ask me, ie written mainly for the prurient interest of the reader.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:08 AM on March 31, 2006
as I mentioned before in this thread, Thailand is not a third world country
It sounds to me like you haven't been there.
posted by the cuban at 4:36 AM on March 31, 2006
It sounds to me like you haven't been there.
posted by the cuban at 4:36 AM on March 31, 2006
The issues are a) does informed consent exist in a context of extreme economic pressures
But many Thai prostitutes, especially the huge number of middle-class men and women who exchange sex for money or are supported by wealthier Thai patrons, often have other economic opportunities available to them. And many of the working-class bar girls also can find jobs outside the sex trade.
b) people who exercise informed consent can still make make what look like bad decisions to others, and we can feel concerned about them.
And the Thai view of sex is very different from a Western view, so what looks like a bad decision to you can be seen as normal and reasonable in Thailand.
posted by soiled cowboy at 7:48 AM on March 31, 2006
But many Thai prostitutes, especially the huge number of middle-class men and women who exchange sex for money or are supported by wealthier Thai patrons, often have other economic opportunities available to them. And many of the working-class bar girls also can find jobs outside the sex trade.
b) people who exercise informed consent can still make make what look like bad decisions to others, and we can feel concerned about them.
And the Thai view of sex is very different from a Western view, so what looks like a bad decision to you can be seen as normal and reasonable in Thailand.
posted by soiled cowboy at 7:48 AM on March 31, 2006
the cuban...
As I mentioned before in the thread, I have in fact been to Thailand. In fact, I've given a good amount of thought to moving to Chiang-mai, as it would mean that I could retire immediately.
Please go back and read the post I made on the economic facts for Thailand. They will certainly surprise you, as they did me when I first encountered them.
posted by tkolar at 8:50 AM on March 31, 2006
as I mentioned before in this thread, Thailand is not a third world countryIt sounds to me like you haven't been there.
As I mentioned before in the thread, I have in fact been to Thailand. In fact, I've given a good amount of thought to moving to Chiang-mai, as it would mean that I could retire immediately.
Please go back and read the post I made on the economic facts for Thailand. They will certainly surprise you, as they did me when I first encountered them.
posted by tkolar at 8:50 AM on March 31, 2006
i_am_joe's_spleen wrote...
a) does informed consent exist in a context of extreme economic pressures
Forget "informed", I'm pretty sure "consent" doesn't exist under extreme economic pressures.
b) people who exercise informed consent can still make make what look like bad decisions to others, and we can feel concerned about them.
Concern I can understand. Rock solid belief that one person knows what is best for other people is where I start to get worried.
posted by tkolar at 9:06 AM on March 31, 2006
a) does informed consent exist in a context of extreme economic pressures
Forget "informed", I'm pretty sure "consent" doesn't exist under extreme economic pressures.
b) people who exercise informed consent can still make make what look like bad decisions to others, and we can feel concerned about them.
Concern I can understand. Rock solid belief that one person knows what is best for other people is where I start to get worried.
posted by tkolar at 9:06 AM on March 31, 2006
You might want to talk to people who work in the industry.
Actually, that's where I got my confidence. Most of my experience with prostitutes is outside of any business relationship. I'm not trying to say that they're typical of prostitutes in general, they're just some people I know.
posted by me & my monkey at 9:24 AM on March 31, 2006
Actually, that's where I got my confidence. Most of my experience with prostitutes is outside of any business relationship. I'm not trying to say that they're typical of prostitutes in general, they're just some people I know.
posted by me & my monkey at 9:24 AM on March 31, 2006
Surely there's a model of social relations out there that isn't built on payment?
To go on a tangent, I'd say because of the basic issue that we need to ration our resources because everybody can't have what they want, transactions that aren't based on trade necessarily revert to being pre-liberal (illiberal) because the parties in the transaction aren't 'equals' anymore. I'd much rather pay someone for a chair and be free of any further obligations to him, while he decides that the best way for him to capitalize on his skills is to make chairs, than have him make chairs because he's bound to me somehow and now I'm left with owing him something abstract. Perhaps the only way to have trade outside of a market process is caste systems, slavery, feudalism, etc.
In a sense, bleak capitalism is an incredibly elegent sort of design, in that you harness people's ultimate desires (self-interest) to produce a way of rationing things (the marketplace) and make that rationing system efficient by virtue of the involved entities' selfishness (competition). The fact that letting leaving everyone free to be selfish empirically shows that the groups involved in capitalism are generally more prosperous kinda seals the deal, and liberalism = prosperity is a yummy combination.
I'm (very) familiar with the leftist liberal criticism of this, that a free-yet-poor person is not really free to self-actualize, that liberalism is also about equality, not just freedom, etc., but still, props to Adam Smith.
posted by Firas at 10:23 AM on March 31, 2006
To go on a tangent, I'd say because of the basic issue that we need to ration our resources because everybody can't have what they want, transactions that aren't based on trade necessarily revert to being pre-liberal (illiberal) because the parties in the transaction aren't 'equals' anymore. I'd much rather pay someone for a chair and be free of any further obligations to him, while he decides that the best way for him to capitalize on his skills is to make chairs, than have him make chairs because he's bound to me somehow and now I'm left with owing him something abstract. Perhaps the only way to have trade outside of a market process is caste systems, slavery, feudalism, etc.
In a sense, bleak capitalism is an incredibly elegent sort of design, in that you harness people's ultimate desires (self-interest) to produce a way of rationing things (the marketplace) and make that rationing system efficient by virtue of the involved entities' selfishness (competition). The fact that letting leaving everyone free to be selfish empirically shows that the groups involved in capitalism are generally more prosperous kinda seals the deal, and liberalism = prosperity is a yummy combination.
I'm (very) familiar with the leftist liberal criticism of this, that a free-yet-poor person is not really free to self-actualize, that liberalism is also about equality, not just freedom, etc., but still, props to Adam Smith.
posted by Firas at 10:23 AM on March 31, 2006
Firas wrote...
Wow, Firas. I think that may have set a record for distance off-topic in a non-accidental post. :-)
posted by tkolar at 10:25 AM on March 31, 2006
Wow, Firas. I think that may have set a record for distance off-topic in a non-accidental post. :-)
posted by tkolar at 10:25 AM on March 31, 2006
Please go back and read the post I made on the economic facts for Thailand. They will certainly surprise you, as they did me when I first encountered them.
I'd rather rely on my own experience and the living condtions I saw in Issan were pretty much third world.
Stats for cell phone penetration doesnt change this.
posted by the cuban at 10:54 AM on March 31, 2006
I'd rather rely on my own experience
This, of all threads, is a lousy place to try to generalize based on your personal experience.
To quote from Wikipedia....
Countries are often loosely placed into four categories of development:
1) Developed countries, and their dependencies (For a list of countries, see developed country.)
2) Countries with an economy consistency and fairly strongly developing over a longer period (China, Mexico, India, Brazil, South Africa, Turkey, the Philippines, Egypt, much of South America, several of the Persian Gulf Arab States, Malaysia, Thailand, Possibly the former Warsaw Pact, etc.)
3) Countries with a patchy record of development (most countries in Africa, Central America, and the Caribbean excepting Jamaica (category 2); much of the Arab world falls in this category); also much of Southeast Asia, falls under this category excepting Singapore, Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia and Thailand (category 2). 76% of the world's countries fall under this category.
4) Countries with long-term civil war or large-scale breakdown of rule of law or non-development-oriented dictatorship ("failed states") (e.g. Haiti, Somalia, Sudan, Burma, perhaps North Korea)
posted by tkolar at 11:14 AM on March 31, 2006
This, of all threads, is a lousy place to try to generalize based on your personal experience.
To quote from Wikipedia....
Countries are often loosely placed into four categories of development:
1) Developed countries, and their dependencies (For a list of countries, see developed country.)
2) Countries with an economy consistency and fairly strongly developing over a longer period (China, Mexico, India, Brazil, South Africa, Turkey, the Philippines, Egypt, much of South America, several of the Persian Gulf Arab States, Malaysia, Thailand, Possibly the former Warsaw Pact, etc.)
3) Countries with a patchy record of development (most countries in Africa, Central America, and the Caribbean excepting Jamaica (category 2); much of the Arab world falls in this category); also much of Southeast Asia, falls under this category excepting Singapore, Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia and Thailand (category 2). 76% of the world's countries fall under this category.
4) Countries with long-term civil war or large-scale breakdown of rule of law or non-development-oriented dictatorship ("failed states") (e.g. Haiti, Somalia, Sudan, Burma, perhaps North Korea)
posted by tkolar at 11:14 AM on March 31, 2006
The Asian tigers - South Korea, Malaysia, and Thailand, except for their big cities, their maquiladora-type production facilities, a small middle class and a much smaller ruling elite should probably be considered Third World countries as well, since their populations are overwhelmingly rural, agrarian and poor.
You'd be hard pressed to distinguish between much of Issan and Laos or Cambodia. You should go there and see for yourself, instead of relying on Wiki or the CIA factbook.
posted by the cuban at 11:41 AM on March 31, 2006
You'd be hard pressed to distinguish between much of Issan and Laos or Cambodia. You should go there and see for yourself, instead of relying on Wiki or the CIA factbook.
posted by the cuban at 11:41 AM on March 31, 2006
You'd be hard pressed to distinguish between much of Issan and Laos or Cambodia.
I'd rather go to Detroit, or rural Alabama. I can find all the grinding poverty I want right here in the U.S.
posted by tkolar at 11:44 AM on March 31, 2006
I'd rather go to Detroit, or rural Alabama. I can find all the grinding poverty I want right here in the U.S.
posted by tkolar at 11:44 AM on March 31, 2006
... South Korea ... should probably be considered Third World countries as well, since their populations are overwhelmingly rural, agrarian and poor.
Really? That sounds wildly inaccurate in the case of South Korea at least. I will admit I've never been there, but my spouse is Korean, and has.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:50 AM on March 31, 2006
Really? That sounds wildly inaccurate in the case of South Korea at least. I will admit I've never been there, but my spouse is Korean, and has.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:50 AM on March 31, 2006
You'd be hard pressed to distinguish between much of Issan and Laos or Cambodia.
I'd say there are very distinguishable differences between Isaan and Cambodia. Compare the provincial seats of Isaan, which have large and functioning marketplaces, sealed roads, hospitals -- with smaller Cambodian cities like Poipet, which have little more than filth and desperation. The less accessible areas of Laos I understand are also pretty bleak. Not to say Isaan isn't impoverished, but it's several degrees above its neighbors.
posted by soiled cowboy at 1:02 PM on March 31, 2006
I'd say there are very distinguishable differences between Isaan and Cambodia. Compare the provincial seats of Isaan, which have large and functioning marketplaces, sealed roads, hospitals -- with smaller Cambodian cities like Poipet, which have little more than filth and desperation. The less accessible areas of Laos I understand are also pretty bleak. Not to say Isaan isn't impoverished, but it's several degrees above its neighbors.
posted by soiled cowboy at 1:02 PM on March 31, 2006
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