Pending Immigration Legislation
April 2, 2006 7:23 PM Subscribe
we talked about this before:
if snsranch had waited for one more FPP to post this, the topic would've been covered in threads 50391, 50491 & 50591.
posted by pruner at 7:36 PM on April 2, 2006
if snsranch had waited for one more FPP to post this, the topic would've been covered in threads 50391, 50491 & 50591.
posted by pruner at 7:36 PM on April 2, 2006
The next time I post about immigrant protests I will have to remember to first search using the KeyWords; "stinky" and "olefactory". Thanks.
If this is indeed a double or triple, by all means, please, delete away!
posted by snsranch at 7:41 PM on April 2, 2006
If this is indeed a double or triple, by all means, please, delete away!
posted by snsranch at 7:41 PM on April 2, 2006
You know, if it were not for this post--plus the fact that the story has been on every news outlet for the last week, is constantly discussed at my work, and has been repeatedly posted before--I would never have heard of this story.
posted by LarryC at 7:49 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by LarryC at 7:49 PM on April 2, 2006
if snsranch had waited for one more FPP to post this, the topic would've been covered in threads 50391, 50491 & 50591.
That's pretty cool, actually.
posted by danb at 7:52 PM on April 2, 2006
That's pretty cool, actually.
posted by danb at 7:52 PM on April 2, 2006
Can anyone explain to me why this is a bad thing? Or if it even is?
posted by Ryvar at 7:52 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by Ryvar at 7:52 PM on April 2, 2006
Windfall profits for private prison corp.
The Department of Justice’s profits from prison labor grew along with the growth of federal prisoners the vast majority of whom were non-violent offenders. An April 12, 2004 story in Government Executive magazine, Prison labor program under fire by lawmakers, private industry, by K. Daniel Glover shows the rise of DOJ’s prison sales and labor force as more arrests and incarcerations are good for business.
scroll down past "the dark alliance" stuff, for the prison dirt.
posted by hortense at 7:55 PM on April 2, 2006
The Department of Justice’s profits from prison labor grew along with the growth of federal prisoners the vast majority of whom were non-violent offenders. An April 12, 2004 story in Government Executive magazine, Prison labor program under fire by lawmakers, private industry, by K. Daniel Glover shows the rise of DOJ’s prison sales and labor force as more arrests and incarcerations are good for business.
scroll down past "the dark alliance" stuff, for the prison dirt.
posted by hortense at 7:55 PM on April 2, 2006
It's bad because it was supported by so many republicans. No other reason needed.
posted by mischief at 7:56 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by mischief at 7:56 PM on April 2, 2006
Also because it effectively criminalizes running a food bank or homeless shelter, goes contrary to supreme court rulings against indefinite detention, hustles asylum-seekers back across the border without adjudication, involves building a *seven hundred mile long wall* across the southwest, and makes coming into this country to pick oranges at poverty wages the legal equivalent to holding up a liquor store with a shotgun. That and about fifteen other kinds of xenophobic pandering.
But, yeah, we hate it only because Republicans sponsored it.
posted by ook at 8:20 PM on April 2, 2006
But, yeah, we hate it only because Republicans sponsored it.
posted by ook at 8:20 PM on April 2, 2006
I doubt many illegals have $15k on them, does congress seriously intend to send all of them to prison, and pay for their stay? Seems absurd.
It's just a way of giving someone a life sentence of financial ruin. No biggie.
posted by nervousfritz at 8:20 PM on April 2, 2006
It's just a way of giving someone a life sentence of financial ruin. No biggie.
posted by nervousfritz at 8:20 PM on April 2, 2006
Okay, I don't quite get it.
Protests about how illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay in the country against the law? Why are they flying the Mexican flag when this is about staying in the US?
Is this a case of flaunting "We're here now, you can't make us leave", or am I just misreading/misunderstanding things?
posted by mrbill at 8:23 PM on April 2, 2006
Protests about how illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay in the country against the law? Why are they flying the Mexican flag when this is about staying in the US?
Is this a case of flaunting "We're here now, you can't make us leave", or am I just misreading/misunderstanding things?
posted by mrbill at 8:23 PM on April 2, 2006
Racist vs. Corporatist factions of the republican party. Either way, everyone loses.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:27 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by Space Coyote at 8:27 PM on April 2, 2006
Can a democracy deport 11 million people?
Who will wipe our asses, anyway? White people?
posted by bukharin at 8:30 PM on April 2, 2006
Is this the reason Haliburton has started building more prisons? Did they already get the ok, (and funding) before the law was ever passed? Who's paying for them? Er, out of what funds?
Whew! And here I thought they were to jail more American disenters, or bird flu victims, or natural disaster survivors, or the gays. Good thing it's only going to be the Mexicans. Or is it going to be the Canadians, too?
posted by shnoz-gobblin at 8:32 PM on April 2, 2006
Whew! And here I thought they were to jail more American disenters, or bird flu victims, or natural disaster survivors, or the gays. Good thing it's only going to be the Mexicans. Or is it going to be the Canadians, too?
posted by shnoz-gobblin at 8:32 PM on April 2, 2006
Name another wasteful spending bill that congress has failed to pass, and the president has failed to sign?
posted by shnoz-gobblin at 8:40 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by shnoz-gobblin at 8:40 PM on April 2, 2006
bukharin, if you ask Bill Frist, he'll say yes. But then, Bill Frist is a fucking moron.
More prisons? We need more prisons like we need Alfred E. Neuman as preside....nevermind, build away.
posted by fenriq at 8:41 PM on April 2, 2006
More prisons? We need more prisons like we need Alfred E. Neuman as preside....nevermind, build away.
posted by fenriq at 8:41 PM on April 2, 2006
Please write the bill to charge $15k to the country of emigration, e.g Mexico or Viet Nam or wherever. If there were a $ penalty, perhaps that country would do something constructive about finding opportunities at home for its citizenry.
posted by Cranberry at 8:47 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by Cranberry at 8:47 PM on April 2, 2006
I think what they're really protesting about is the part that would make it a felony to help an illegal immigrant. So people imagine someone giving water to a poor fellow lost in the desert and think that shouldn't be a felony.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:51 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:51 PM on April 2, 2006
It's also been a great excuse to skip school for many young Mexican-American students.
It's a terrible bill, but I'm not sure all those kids could really tell you why.
posted by Citizen Premier at 8:52 PM on April 2, 2006
It's a terrible bill, but I'm not sure all those kids could really tell you why.
posted by Citizen Premier at 8:52 PM on April 2, 2006
Brilliant, Cranberry. We should also impose a "poor tax" to give the poor in America motivation to be rich!
posted by Citizen Premier at 8:53 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by Citizen Premier at 8:53 PM on April 2, 2006
Did you read my comment? I proposed billing the country, not the people.
posted by Cranberry at 8:56 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by Cranberry at 8:56 PM on April 2, 2006
Why is this even an issue? We all know it's just a dog and pony show for the bottom-rung Republican party members.
The RNC needs illegal immigrants.
They need the cheap labor and they need a convenient group of "others" to scapegoat.
posted by RavinDave at 8:58 PM on April 2, 2006
The RNC needs illegal immigrants.
They need the cheap labor and they need a convenient group of "others" to scapegoat.
posted by RavinDave at 8:58 PM on April 2, 2006
bill the country all you want... without a treaty, it doesn't mean dick...
posted by WhipSmart at 9:04 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by WhipSmart at 9:04 PM on April 2, 2006
It's a terrible bill, but I'm not sure all those kids could really tell you why.
Most of those kids would be American citizens born in this country. I'm sure they are pretty well aware of the consequences of having their parents deported.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:13 PM on April 2, 2006
Most of those kids would be American citizens born in this country. I'm sure they are pretty well aware of the consequences of having their parents deported.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:13 PM on April 2, 2006
where is the quality control?
posted by matthewchen at 9:24 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by matthewchen at 9:24 PM on April 2, 2006
Heh. Way to link to clearly non biased sources, man. *snort*
Yeah. Flagged as a dup-dup-duplicate,,,
posted by drstein at 9:30 PM on April 2, 2006
Yeah. Flagged as a dup-dup-duplicate,,,
posted by drstein at 9:30 PM on April 2, 2006
Don't forget 49277 ("Illegal immigrants strike on February 14 to protest Bill 4437 - the Border Protection, Antiterrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005.")
posted by unmake at 9:31 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by unmake at 9:31 PM on April 2, 2006
Please write the bill to charge $15k to the country of emigration, e.g Mexico or Viet Nam or wherever. If there were a $ penalty, perhaps that country would do something constructive about finding opportunities at home for its citizenry.
Good luck collecting.
As for those people claming this law isn't a "bad idea". Well, if this law were perfectly enforced, it would mean putting 11 million people in federal prison. Currently the US is the world's leader in prison population, both in percentage and in raw numbers. We have 2 million prisoners, and china has 1.5 million.
In this country we have two different types of crimes. Felonies, and Misdemeanors. We also have civil infractions, which are not generally considered "crimes". Right now, immigration violations are (I believe) civil infractions, they're not even Misdemeanors.
Clearly, there is some reason why we have different gradations of crime and lawlessness with different gradations of punishment. Right now an immigration violation is similar in legal severity to a parking ticket, although you could end up getting deported. So the question now is, why should we 'elevate' to a crime and to a felony, like murder? Do you believe that a person inside the United States without a valid visa or green card is doing as much harm as a person who commits murder? As a person who commits armed robbery? Do you honestly believe a migrant worker is as damaging as an arsonist, or a rapist, or child molester?
I do not.
If you believe, that illegal immigrants should be felons, then please, tell us what other felonies you believe they are equivalent too and in what way?
posted by delmoi at 9:36 PM on April 2, 2006
Good luck collecting.
As for those people claming this law isn't a "bad idea". Well, if this law were perfectly enforced, it would mean putting 11 million people in federal prison. Currently the US is the world's leader in prison population, both in percentage and in raw numbers. We have 2 million prisoners, and china has 1.5 million.
In this country we have two different types of crimes. Felonies, and Misdemeanors. We also have civil infractions, which are not generally considered "crimes". Right now, immigration violations are (I believe) civil infractions, they're not even Misdemeanors.
Clearly, there is some reason why we have different gradations of crime and lawlessness with different gradations of punishment. Right now an immigration violation is similar in legal severity to a parking ticket, although you could end up getting deported. So the question now is, why should we 'elevate' to a crime and to a felony, like murder? Do you believe that a person inside the United States without a valid visa or green card is doing as much harm as a person who commits murder? As a person who commits armed robbery? Do you honestly believe a migrant worker is as damaging as an arsonist, or a rapist, or child molester?
I do not.
If you believe, that illegal immigrants should be felons, then please, tell us what other felonies you believe they are equivalent too and in what way?
posted by delmoi at 9:36 PM on April 2, 2006
Conservative Republicans are giving illegal immigrants a hard time because 1) they can't vote, and 2) if they do ever become naturalized citizens, they'll probably vote democrat.
posted by ZachsMind at 9:39 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by ZachsMind at 9:39 PM on April 2, 2006
Conservative Republicans are giving illegal immigrants a hard time because 1) they can't vote, and 2) if they do ever become naturalized citizens, they'll probably vote democrat.
Ironically bush had been working really hard to woo the hispanic vote. He got 44% in the last election.
posted by delmoi at 9:47 PM on April 2, 2006
Ironically bush had been working really hard to woo the hispanic vote. He got 44% in the last election.
posted by delmoi at 9:47 PM on April 2, 2006
It's also been a great excuse to skip school for many young Mexican-American students.
Indeed, during the week there were three protests involving thousands of students - yesterday (Sat. April 1) there was a protest where the cops outnumbered the protestors.
posted by SirOmega at 9:48 PM on April 2, 2006
Indeed, during the week there were three protests involving thousands of students - yesterday (Sat. April 1) there was a protest where the cops outnumbered the protestors.
posted by SirOmega at 9:48 PM on April 2, 2006
I don't support making illegal immigration an automatic felony, but I can't see the basis for opposing deportation of illegal immigrants. If you enter illegally, you (by definition) do not have a right to stay in the United States. To claim otherwise is silly.
posted by oaf at 9:57 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by oaf at 9:57 PM on April 2, 2006
I think it's silly to detain illegal immigrants. Can't we just shoot repeat offenders or something?
posted by keswick at 10:09 PM on April 2, 2006
posted by keswick at 10:09 PM on April 2, 2006
Hmm. I'm against illegal immigration, but I don't think this is a good idea. We can't possibly afford to stick all the illegal immigrants in prison, so what it'll end up being is a rarely enforced, but more severe penalty for rocking the boat. It won't get rid of the illegal immigrants, it'll just do more to strip them of rights and make them an underclass.
I like some parts, like fencing off a lot of the border and fining employers, but a lot of it is far too draconian or badly thought out. 3 years for housing illegal immigrants seems far too harsh, especially when employers, who would be required to electronically check their employers under this plan, are only fined even after 2 prior violations. 10 years for fraudulent documents is also ridiculously extreme.
Something needs to be done about illegal immigration, but not this. I'd prefer to just see major border security improvements, something done to force the INS to actually ENFORCE the immigration laws we have now, and harsher fines for companies that employ illegals. My idea for that is this; there would be a moderate fine for hiring an illegal immigrant over the table (i.e. negligence in checking papers), a moderate fine for hiring Americans under the table, and a very severe fine for hiring illegals under the table. If employers are forced to operate over the table and treat American and illegal immigrant employees equally, there would be a lot less incentive for them to hire illegals.
I also think that any company found hiring illegals under the table should be forced into a period of mandatory downtime - i.e. something like a month where they can do no business whatsoever. That's to hit the corporations and companies that can afford the fines.
posted by Mitrovarr at 10:15 PM on April 2, 2006
I like some parts, like fencing off a lot of the border and fining employers, but a lot of it is far too draconian or badly thought out. 3 years for housing illegal immigrants seems far too harsh, especially when employers, who would be required to electronically check their employers under this plan, are only fined even after 2 prior violations. 10 years for fraudulent documents is also ridiculously extreme.
Something needs to be done about illegal immigration, but not this. I'd prefer to just see major border security improvements, something done to force the INS to actually ENFORCE the immigration laws we have now, and harsher fines for companies that employ illegals. My idea for that is this; there would be a moderate fine for hiring an illegal immigrant over the table (i.e. negligence in checking papers), a moderate fine for hiring Americans under the table, and a very severe fine for hiring illegals under the table. If employers are forced to operate over the table and treat American and illegal immigrant employees equally, there would be a lot less incentive for them to hire illegals.
I also think that any company found hiring illegals under the table should be forced into a period of mandatory downtime - i.e. something like a month where they can do no business whatsoever. That's to hit the corporations and companies that can afford the fines.
posted by Mitrovarr at 10:15 PM on April 2, 2006
The problem with employment verification is that it would kill the day laborers. How does someone who go picks up two or three guys off the corner to verify their employment electronically? He just needs them to dig a ditch or something for 7 hours, they get paid in cash, etc.
Not that I'm defending this - I'd like to see the 11.5M deported and the unemployed Americans stand up and take those jobs the illegals are leaving (there might not be 11.5M "official" unemployed, but there are plenty that have given up looking).
posted by SirOmega at 10:26 PM on April 2, 2006
Not that I'm defending this - I'd like to see the 11.5M deported and the unemployed Americans stand up and take those jobs the illegals are leaving (there might not be 11.5M "official" unemployed, but there are plenty that have given up looking).
posted by SirOmega at 10:26 PM on April 2, 2006
You hit the nail on the head. No one wants this to pass. Some stand up and claim they want it to pass, but they only support it because they know it can't possibly survive.
This is win/win for the RNC. The bottom-feeders get to distract their districts from the war-travesty and pander to their zenophobic base while W will make a significant gain for the GOP among hispanic voters when he vetoes the bill (if it even gets there). No good can come from this.
posted by jmgorman at 11:01 PM on April 2, 2006
This is win/win for the RNC. The bottom-feeders get to distract their districts from the war-travesty and pander to their zenophobic base while W will make a significant gain for the GOP among hispanic voters when he vetoes the bill (if it even gets there). No good can come from this.
posted by jmgorman at 11:01 PM on April 2, 2006
Well put, jmg, but I doubt Hispanics will feel very warm toward Republicans after this.
posted by bukharin at 11:07 PM on April 2, 2006
W will make a significant gain for the GOP among hispanic voters when he vetoes the bill (if it even gets there).
Does W even know where his Veto Pen is? I've heard him reference it a couple times, but I think he lost it early in the first term, and was too proud to ask for another.
posted by shnoz-gobblin at 11:11 PM on April 2, 2006
Does W even know where his Veto Pen is? I've heard him reference it a couple times, but I think he lost it early in the first term, and was too proud to ask for another.
posted by shnoz-gobblin at 11:11 PM on April 2, 2006
Do you honestly believe a migrant worker is as damaging as an arsonist, or a rapist, or child molester?
I put a migrant worker right on par with other felons, especially potheads and music pirates.
posted by Kwantsar at 12:55 AM on April 3, 2006
I put a migrant worker right on par with other felons, especially potheads and music pirates.
posted by Kwantsar at 12:55 AM on April 3, 2006
This is win/win for the RNC. The bottom-feeders get to distract their districts from the war-travesty and pander to their zenophobic base while W will make a significant gain for the GOP among hispanic voters when he vetoes the bill (if it even gets there). No good can come from this.
Doesn't matter what W does, since he can't run again. Dick Cheney probably won't run, and he would never win. So all the people running in 08 are going to be either governors or people currently in the senate. It will either be McCain (who is thankfully against this) or some governor.
posted by delmoi at 1:10 AM on April 3, 2006
Doesn't matter what W does, since he can't run again. Dick Cheney probably won't run, and he would never win. So all the people running in 08 are going to be either governors or people currently in the senate. It will either be McCain (who is thankfully against this) or some governor.
posted by delmoi at 1:10 AM on April 3, 2006
I put a migrant worker right on par with other felons, especially potheads and music pirates.
potsmoking and music piracy should not be felonies either, IMO.
posted by delmoi at 1:11 AM on April 3, 2006
potsmoking and music piracy should not be felonies either, IMO.
posted by delmoi at 1:11 AM on April 3, 2006
Well, if you put them in jail, they'll become even cheaper labor.
posted by NewBornHippy at 1:31 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by NewBornHippy at 1:31 AM on April 3, 2006
I sold pot to an immigrant, once. Then synched up a dubbed copy of Fantasia to a burnt copy of Tool's Aenima. The VHS was mine, the cd was his and it totally blew both of our minds.
Say you've only got one pair of zip cuffs and no backup. We split down a fork in the road. Which one do you chase?
posted by elr at 1:58 AM on April 3, 2006
Say you've only got one pair of zip cuffs and no backup. We split down a fork in the road. Which one do you chase?
posted by elr at 1:58 AM on April 3, 2006
Who will wipe our asses, anyway? White people?
I'm a white person who once had a job that involved wiping other (old) people's asses. So yeah, white people will do it.
Of course, I would rather starve to death than ever do it again, and I think the minimum hourly pay for such work should be $30.
And no, I never expect anyone else to wipe my ass for any price, unless I am only merely *temporarily* incapacitated. I'd much rather be dead than incontinent, thanks. Diapers are for babies.
posted by beth at 2:03 AM on April 3, 2006
I'm a white person who once had a job that involved wiping other (old) people's asses. So yeah, white people will do it.
Of course, I would rather starve to death than ever do it again, and I think the minimum hourly pay for such work should be $30.
And no, I never expect anyone else to wipe my ass for any price, unless I am only merely *temporarily* incapacitated. I'd much rather be dead than incontinent, thanks. Diapers are for babies.
posted by beth at 2:03 AM on April 3, 2006
delmoi: Doesn't matter what W does ... [ etc.]
Yeah, but the hypocrisy factor is gonna rub off on several key players. Here we have bombastic calls for a new Berlin wall by many of the same people who had no problem selling ports to foreign governments. The disconnect is jarring and won't go unnoticed.
posted by RavinDave at 3:03 AM on April 3, 2006
Yeah, but the hypocrisy factor is gonna rub off on several key players. Here we have bombastic calls for a new Berlin wall by many of the same people who had no problem selling ports to foreign governments. The disconnect is jarring and won't go unnoticed.
posted by RavinDave at 3:03 AM on April 3, 2006
This problem would go away if American parents would stop giving spending money to their kids. Let them wipe asses for subminimum wages. Parents would save money. Incontinent people would get hot teenagers to do their dirty work. And kids... well, kids would learn a life lesson or something. Especially if dad was incontinent.
posted by pracowity at 3:37 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by pracowity at 3:37 AM on April 3, 2006
1) Import poor people to cover job positions
2) Pay them little
3) Sell to rich americans (for a while...)
4) Profit !
or
a) Export job positions to poor people in China
b) Pay them little or even less
3) Sell to rich people (for a while..) all over the wolrd
4) Even more profit !
Bottom line: in capitalist whatever, capitalism fucks you !
posted by elpapacito at 4:46 AM on April 3, 2006
Please write the bill to charge $15k to the country of emigration, e.g Mexico or Viet Nam or wherever. If there were a $ penalty, perhaps that country would do something constructive about finding opportunities at home for its citizenry.
posted by Cranberry at 8:47 PM PST on April 2 [!]
And here I thought the chain of events was something like this:
Immigrant comes to US because of American who pays them money.
So why not charge the $15,000 to the American who hires them?
Or is that too obvious Cranberry?
posted by rough ashlar at 5:32 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by Cranberry at 8:47 PM PST on April 2 [!]
And here I thought the chain of events was something like this:
Immigrant comes to US because of American who pays them money.
So why not charge the $15,000 to the American who hires them?
Or is that too obvious Cranberry?
posted by rough ashlar at 5:32 AM on April 3, 2006
It doesn't matter what W does, he can't run again...
Wrong (well, you are correct, he cannot run again), it does matter. Folks cannot vote for FDR, JFK or LBJ anymore, but that has hardly diminished the traditional (albeit eroding) support the DNC receives from African-American voters. All it takes is one bold stand by a courageous president and generations of voters could be in the pocket of of the RNC. The democrats need to get real loud real fast to fight this one.
posted by jmgorman at 6:17 AM on April 3, 2006
Wrong (well, you are correct, he cannot run again), it does matter. Folks cannot vote for FDR, JFK or LBJ anymore, but that has hardly diminished the traditional (albeit eroding) support the DNC receives from African-American voters. All it takes is one bold stand by a courageous president and generations of voters could be in the pocket of of the RNC. The democrats need to get real loud real fast to fight this one.
posted by jmgorman at 6:17 AM on April 3, 2006
Fareed Zakaria was on the Daily Show (can't find a link, sorry) the other night talking about how what's really funny with this whole issue is that we actually do immigration better than any othr country. I thought he made some good points, and it made me wonder... other than obvious concerns that illegal workers enable corporations to maintain an unregulated underpaid workforce (which in turn drives down legal wages, arguably), what problems do we really have from illegal immigration that we don't already have from legal citizens living in low wage/poverty conditions?
posted by illovich at 6:47 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by illovich at 6:47 AM on April 3, 2006
Putting them in jail seems like the very worst idea possible. Then they aren't working, they haven't left the country, and we are paying to house and feed them. The much touted felony thing will only be enforced on criminals that cannot be prosecuted for other crimes. For instance an illegal immigrant rapes and murders a family and there isn't evidence to convict? They will felony charge him with being an illegal immigrant. They are not going to start slapping felony charges against random farm workers.
posted by sophist at 6:55 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by sophist at 6:55 AM on April 3, 2006
btw, potsmoking (possesion) and music piracy(first offence) aren't felonies, they are misdemeanors.
posted by sophist at 7:02 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by sophist at 7:02 AM on April 3, 2006
The much touted felony thing will only be enforced on criminals that cannot be prosecuted for other crimes. For instance an illegal immigrant rapes and murders a family and there isn't evidence to convict? They will felony charge him with being an illegal immigrant.
It will be enforced against anyone a prosecutor feels like enforcing it against. There is simply no way that you can predict who those people will be, although Obviously I agree that it won't be enforced very often, as it would really fuck up or society if it were.
It's also possible that a person who there is not enough evidence to convict is, you know, not actually guilty. I mean, why not just make breathing a felony? That way prosecutors will always be able to put anyone they want in jail, no matter how little evidence of a crime there really is!
posted by delmoi at 7:17 AM on April 3, 2006
It will be enforced against anyone a prosecutor feels like enforcing it against. There is simply no way that you can predict who those people will be, although Obviously I agree that it won't be enforced very often, as it would really fuck up or society if it were.
It's also possible that a person who there is not enough evidence to convict is, you know, not actually guilty. I mean, why not just make breathing a felony? That way prosecutors will always be able to put anyone they want in jail, no matter how little evidence of a crime there really is!
posted by delmoi at 7:17 AM on April 3, 2006
since im short on time ill just say two things..
alot of us may not take this very seriously but working in the restaraunt industry where a good half of the employees are on visa, and their families are still in other countries it is VERY important to them.. important enough that while these protests were going on this last saturday our restaraunt as well as some others in the area almost had to close for the day because that half of employees simply didnt show up because they felt they had somewhere more important to be
second.. when i was living in texas i was made aware of a retainment center in Waco for illegal immigrants. they dont care if bills have been passed.. for several years they have been holding people there with absolutely NO rights, mostly until they starve to death. at least when they were deporting them back to mexico or wherever it was 'kinda' humane... after we found out about this place we took to protesting, the building is in the downtown area and we were immediately hassled by police. (we tried to get permission to close off half of the street, they laughed at us.) also take note that the following week there was an organized KKK rally on the steps of the courthouse that got all the closed streets and police help they wanted.
posted by trishthedish at 7:45 AM on April 3, 2006
alot of us may not take this very seriously but working in the restaraunt industry where a good half of the employees are on visa, and their families are still in other countries it is VERY important to them.. important enough that while these protests were going on this last saturday our restaraunt as well as some others in the area almost had to close for the day because that half of employees simply didnt show up because they felt they had somewhere more important to be
second.. when i was living in texas i was made aware of a retainment center in Waco for illegal immigrants. they dont care if bills have been passed.. for several years they have been holding people there with absolutely NO rights, mostly until they starve to death. at least when they were deporting them back to mexico or wherever it was 'kinda' humane... after we found out about this place we took to protesting, the building is in the downtown area and we were immediately hassled by police. (we tried to get permission to close off half of the street, they laughed at us.) also take note that the following week there was an organized KKK rally on the steps of the courthouse that got all the closed streets and police help they wanted.
posted by trishthedish at 7:45 AM on April 3, 2006
About the felony part of the bill: It clearly states that an illegal immigrant previously convicted of a felony will be charged with a felony if they try crossing illegally. Non-convicts will not be made into instant felons if they are caught as an illegal immigrant. This makes sense and I doubt that would account for very few actual illegals. Just to point out the obvious, any of these crimes and even some lesser convictions can mean instant deportation for even a legal alien.
posted by JJ86 at 8:29 AM on April 3, 2006
``(e)(1) Any alien described in paragraph (2)--
6 ``(A) shall be fined under title 18, United
7 States Code, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or
8 both, if the offense described in such paragraph was
9 committed subsequent to a conviction or convictions
10 for commission of three or more misdemeanors in-
11 volving drugs, crimes against the person, or both, or
12 a felony;
13 (B) whose violation was subsequent to con-
14 viction for a felony for which the alien received
15 a sentence of 30 months or more, shall be fined
16 under title 18, United States Code, imprisoned
17 not more than 10 years, or both; or
18 (C) whose violation was subsequent to con-
19 viction for a felony for which the alien received
20 a sentence of 60 months or more, shall be fined
21 under title 18, United States Code, imprisoned
22 not more than 20 years, or both.
23 ``(2) An alien described in this paragraph is an alien
24 who--
HR 4437 EH 46
1 ``(A) enters or attempts to enter the United
2 States at any time or place other than as designated
3 by immigration officers;
4 ``(B) eludes examination or inspection by immi-
5 gration officers;
6 ``(C) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the
7 United States by a willfully false or misleading rep-
8 resentation or the willful concealment of a material
9 fact; or
10 ``(D) is otherwise present in the United States
11 in violation of the immigration laws or the regula-
12 tions prescribed thereunder.
posted by JJ86 at 8:29 AM on April 3, 2006
trishthedish: good half of the employees are on visa, and their families are still in other countries it is VERY important to them.
I feel for them, sincerely. As my family had some emigrants to Us of A I happen to know something the misery, the exploitation, the feeling of loneliness and the enormous determination of emigrants.
Yet while sympathy for their conditions is well deserved some of the effects of their works are negative
1* they unwillingly (sometimes willingly) steal job positions : when an american is willing to do a X job for 10$ , some legal or illegal immigrant may accept the job X for 8$ or less. Why wasn't the job assigned to the american ? For the simple economic reason : its more profiteable to hire the 8$ guy, the $10 guy shall go to hell.
2* part of their wage goes to other countries. Considering that most people live with few dollars a day, it's party time when the check arrives. That currency is used to buy local products (less expensive) and other less expensive products, absolutely NO american products because they are more expensive than, for instance, Chinese. Round and round the dollar goes and maybe it will buy some american stuff someday somehow. Big capital can wait, you can't.
2B Also in the internal market they generate demand for comparatively cheap goods, because they are not high level wage earners.
3* if they are illegal they don't pay their share of taxes, yet they could (certainly unwillingly) generate expenditures in health care , policing and possibily (but not certainly) be recruited for illegal operations to get a quick dime.
Certainly they do increase the wealth possesed by private hands ; part of this value is passed down to consumers in the form of reduced price (because low price is attractive marketing, see Walmart) yet the consumers most likely lost their work in the same time or had a severely reduced income
At the same time two distinct factions emerge: the ones blaming the immigrant (a-la KKK) and the other blaming the lazy americans; the least to be heard is the faction that got it right : it is the enterpreneur and colluded administrations that are causing part of the problem.
The situation becomes dramatic when the ex-wage earners aren't cutting on luxury items ( because they already were cut or weren't bought to begin with) but when they start seeing unsecure financial future because of gas price / insurance prices / food price / house prices and the prospect of low wage / hard to find job perpetuating in the future.
posted by elpapacito at 8:43 AM on April 3, 2006
I feel for them, sincerely. As my family had some emigrants to Us of A I happen to know something the misery, the exploitation, the feeling of loneliness and the enormous determination of emigrants.
Yet while sympathy for their conditions is well deserved some of the effects of their works are negative
1* they unwillingly (sometimes willingly) steal job positions : when an american is willing to do a X job for 10$ , some legal or illegal immigrant may accept the job X for 8$ or less. Why wasn't the job assigned to the american ? For the simple economic reason : its more profiteable to hire the 8$ guy, the $10 guy shall go to hell.
2* part of their wage goes to other countries. Considering that most people live with few dollars a day, it's party time when the check arrives. That currency is used to buy local products (less expensive) and other less expensive products, absolutely NO american products because they are more expensive than, for instance, Chinese. Round and round the dollar goes and maybe it will buy some american stuff someday somehow. Big capital can wait, you can't.
2B Also in the internal market they generate demand for comparatively cheap goods, because they are not high level wage earners.
3* if they are illegal they don't pay their share of taxes, yet they could (certainly unwillingly) generate expenditures in health care , policing and possibily (but not certainly) be recruited for illegal operations to get a quick dime.
Certainly they do increase the wealth possesed by private hands ; part of this value is passed down to consumers in the form of reduced price (because low price is attractive marketing, see Walmart) yet the consumers most likely lost their work in the same time or had a severely reduced income
At the same time two distinct factions emerge: the ones blaming the immigrant (a-la KKK) and the other blaming the lazy americans; the least to be heard is the faction that got it right : it is the enterpreneur and colluded administrations that are causing part of the problem.
The situation becomes dramatic when the ex-wage earners aren't cutting on luxury items ( because they already were cut or weren't bought to begin with) but when they start seeing unsecure financial future because of gas price / insurance prices / food price / house prices and the prospect of low wage / hard to find job perpetuating in the future.
posted by elpapacito at 8:43 AM on April 3, 2006
Obviously, the only solution is to invade and conquer Mexico. Then we can turn the entire country into a prison, and incarcerate all our illegal immigrants there.
posted by davelog at 8:43 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by davelog at 8:43 AM on April 3, 2006
"Obviously, the only solution is to invade and conquer Mexico. Then we can turn the entire country into a prison, and incarcerate all our illegal immigrants there.
posted by davelog at 8:43 AM PST on April 3 [!]"
No way, dude! All that beachfront property? We could eminent domain the whole place and build affordable condos on the beaches!
Hawaii, your days are numbered.. we've got a new tourist state now! ;)
posted by drstein at 8:52 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by davelog at 8:43 AM PST on April 3 [!]"
No way, dude! All that beachfront property? We could eminent domain the whole place and build affordable condos on the beaches!
Hawaii, your days are numbered.. we've got a new tourist state now! ;)
posted by drstein at 8:52 AM on April 3, 2006
There's a bill in Congress to make being an illegal alien punishable as a felony. There's also a bill in Congress to have Federal prisoners pick fruits and vegetables.
Not that there's any connection between the two, and you'd be a traitor and a Communist to assume so.
While we're at it, we should put all the drug users and sodomizers in jail, so they'll never do drugs or sodomize again.
posted by basilwhite at 9:10 AM on April 3, 2006
Not that there's any connection between the two, and you'd be a traitor and a Communist to assume so.
While we're at it, we should put all the drug users and sodomizers in jail, so they'll never do drugs or sodomize again.
posted by basilwhite at 9:10 AM on April 3, 2006
A) Exporting service jobs to India: good.
B) Giving jobs to Mexicans in the U.S.: bad.
Why? Who knows?
It's bad because it was supported by so many republicans. No other reason needed.
posted by mischief at 7:56 PM PST on April 2
For someone who has benefitted from the largesse of your fellow human beings, you sure are quick to deny others the same opportunities.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:49 AM on April 3, 2006
B) Giving jobs to Mexicans in the U.S.: bad.
Why? Who knows?
It's bad because it was supported by so many republicans. No other reason needed.
posted by mischief at 7:56 PM PST on April 2
For someone who has benefitted from the largesse of your fellow human beings, you sure are quick to deny others the same opportunities.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:49 AM on April 3, 2006
Obviously, the only solution is to invade and conquer Mexico
You mean invading and renaming the Mexicans as Americans, ending the problem of who should earn what ?
Nice try :) except that it would only change name to problem.
posted by elpapacito at 10:51 AM on April 3, 2006
You mean invading and renaming the Mexicans as Americans, ending the problem of who should earn what ?
Nice try :) except that it would only change name to problem.
posted by elpapacito at 10:51 AM on April 3, 2006
A) Exporting service jobs to India: good.
B) Giving jobs to Mexicans in the U.S.: bad.
If you outsource the jobs, you don't have to actually live with the people.
posted by delmoi at 11:41 AM on April 3, 2006
B) Giving jobs to Mexicans in the U.S.: bad.
If you outsource the jobs, you don't have to actually live with the people.
posted by delmoi at 11:41 AM on April 3, 2006
You mean invading and renaming the Mexicans as Americans, ending the problem of who should earn what ?
No, I said nothing about renaming the Mexicans as Americans. I said we should make Mexico an American penal colony, and incarcerate all those felonious illegal immigrants there.
posted by davelog at 12:01 PM on April 3, 2006
No, I said nothing about renaming the Mexicans as Americans. I said we should make Mexico an American penal colony, and incarcerate all those felonious illegal immigrants there.
posted by davelog at 12:01 PM on April 3, 2006
It's embedded WMV, but here's the Daily Show interview with Fareed Zakaria mentioned upthread.
posted by joshuaconner at 2:16 PM on April 3, 2006
posted by joshuaconner at 2:16 PM on April 3, 2006
btw, potsmoking (possesion) and music piracy(first offence) aren't felonies, they are misdemeanors.
Wanna bet?
posted by Kwantsar at 2:37 PM on April 3, 2006
Wanna bet?
posted by Kwantsar at 2:37 PM on April 3, 2006
Largesse of whom? My insurance company?
posted by mischief at 2:34 PM PST on April 3
Don't be coy.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:40 PM on April 3, 2006
posted by mischief at 2:34 PM PST on April 3
Don't be coy.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:40 PM on April 3, 2006
posted by bukharin at 11:30 PM EST on April 2 [!]
Aren't you... dead?
posted by Krrrlson at 5:13 PM on April 3, 2006
Aren't you... dead?
posted by Krrrlson at 5:13 PM on April 3, 2006
I was under the impression that human traffickers are going to be prosecuted under this law, not run of the mill illegal immigrants. it's just not feasible to prosecute and imprison every illegal immigrant.
posted by Devils Slide at 6:17 PM on April 3, 2006
posted by Devils Slide at 6:17 PM on April 3, 2006
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posted by delmoi at 7:29 PM on April 2, 2006