More Buk
June 8, 2006 7:39 AM   Subscribe

Bukowski. Complementary to previous Hank.
posted by liam (41 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
bukowski was my hero when I was fifteen, before I realized the value of being a good, kind, sober person.
posted by milarepa at 8:12 AM on June 8, 2006


I saw the first three letters, and thought -- great, a Bukakke link!

I'm all disappointed now.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:20 AM on June 8, 2006


"bukowski was my hero when I was fifteen"

I loved Bukowski before I ever knew who he really was. He was out there while I was growing up, and I would hear his name echo around Long Beach coffee houses and not know who people were talking about.

Sixties hipsters would say things like, "Man....Bukowski...Fucken A," would wonder what that meant.

It wasn't until the last few years that I actually discovered the real Bar Fly. My job takes me to the harbor area two days a week and his ghost is still hovering around San Pedro.

I love those photographs of him, especially with the ugly whore. I wonder if she's the one who stole his manuscript?
posted by BillyElmore at 8:25 AM on June 8, 2006


As I said in the last thread . . I liked his writing until I had the misfortune of meeting him.

I would not be able to pick up any book my him now.

milarepa nailed it.
posted by Danf at 8:29 AM on June 8, 2006


"thank your ugly asshole"
posted by isopraxis at 8:34 AM on June 8, 2006


Believe me, Danf -- you wouldn't have liked Gregory Corso either. ;-)
posted by digaman at 8:40 AM on June 8, 2006


Your favorite author was an asshole.
posted by airguitar at 8:56 AM on June 8, 2006


"Your favorite author was an asshole."

A lot of 'em are. But Bukowski was a poet.
posted by donfactor at 9:09 AM on June 8, 2006


There are lots or writers folks wouldn't have liked, mainly because writers are boring -- they sit and scribble or, lately, they sit and type, and they aren't necessarily one bit more interesting or likeable than a scribe or typist.

The ones who did do things other than write -- Hemingway, for instance -- well, you probably wouldn't have liked most of them, either, for one reason or another. And it doesn't matter. Writers weren't made for liking or disliking. You either like what they write or you don't, and that's all that matters about them, even if the writing is The Education of Little Tree or The Works of Ern Malley.
posted by pracowity at 9:17 AM on June 8, 2006


He has always struck me as not of any real merit as a writer. Or of much interest as a person.
posted by Postroad at 10:04 AM on June 8, 2006


Good thing I asked
posted by isopraxis at 10:33 AM on June 8, 2006


++milarepa.
posted by Artw at 10:35 AM on June 8, 2006


Those are good burgers, Walter.
posted by devbrain at 10:58 AM on June 8, 2006


Care to elaborate, Danf?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:07 AM on June 8, 2006


I like his work. It’s honest. Whatever stylistic choices he makes, there’s a likable quality to his poetry. I think I admire him most for not buying into his fan’s beat down bullshit. He is not noble for being poor or beat up or selfish or redeemed for loving classical music and having refined sensibilities and he doesn’t come off that way. In fact he seems at war with hyperreality all the time. Maybe it makes him an asshole, but at least an all the more human one.

“what can we do with it, this Humanity?

nothing.”
posted by Smedleyman at 11:24 AM on June 8, 2006


/someone can be a worthless individual, but a worthwhile artist.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:25 AM on June 8, 2006


Please enlighten us with a saucy anecdote, Danf. I've been waiting for one since that last thread.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:32 AM on June 8, 2006


"Your favorite author was an asshole."

One should avoid personally knowing one's heroes.

I don't doubt anything that anyone here has said about Bukowski, Corso, or any author. Authors are not, by nature, very sociable beings.

But I'll always love Bukowski, Henry Miller, Anais Nin, St. Kerouac, Vladimir Nabokov, because you've got to admit, they had a way of making those words touch you, and making you feel not so alone.
posted by rougy at 11:42 AM on June 8, 2006


Noone moves me like Bukowski. Once you can see past the whole stereotypical alcoholic artist thing and filter out his, and more annoyingly, many of his fans machismo you're left with a very talented, expressive and gifted writer. If you haven't read much of his work then you really can't pass comment validly.
posted by brautigan at 12:24 PM on June 8, 2006


Style is the answer to everything.
Fresh way to approach a dull or dangerous day.
To do a dull thing with style is preferable to doing a dangerous thing without style.
To do a dangerous thing with style, is what I call art.
Bullfighting can be an art.
Boxing can be an art.
Loving can be an art.
Opening a can of sardines can be an art.
Not many have style.
Not many can keep style.
I have seen dogs with more style than men.
Although not many dogs have style.
Cats have it with abundance.

------------ CB
posted by QuietDesperation at 12:39 PM on June 8, 2006


QuietDesperation, you're missing half the poem and are off on some of it, to my memory anyway:

Style is the answer to everything.
Fresh way to approach a dull or dangerous thing.
To do a dull thing with style is preferable to doing a dangerous thing without it.
To do a dangerous thing with style, is what I call art.
Bullfighting can be an art.
Boxing can be an art.
Loving can be an art.
Opening a can of sardines can be an art.
Not many have style.
Not many can keep style.
I have seen dogs with more style than men,
although not many dogs have style.
Cats have it with abundance.
When Hemingway put his brains to the wall with a shotgun,
that was style.
Or sometimes people give you style:
Joan of Arc had style.
John the Baptist.
Christ.
Socrates, Ceaser.
Garcia Lorca.
I've met men in jail with style.
I've met more men in jail with style than men out of jail.
Style is the difference:
a way of doing; a way of being done.
Six Herons standing quietly in a pool of water,
or you walking out of the bathroom naked
without seeing me.
posted by dobbs at 12:53 PM on June 8, 2006


And yeah, most great artists are assholes. Buk was apparently no exception.
posted by dobbs at 12:54 PM on June 8, 2006


Dobbs, I purposely chose the first stanza for brevity's sake. But it's good to read the whole thing (incidentally, it's recited by Ben Gazzara in Tales of Ordinary Madness, a film that I don't recommend except for the recitations that bookend it).

Apologies if my source was inaccurate. I 'm beginning to suspect that there are mistakes on the Internets.
posted by QuietDesperation at 1:45 PM on June 8, 2006


Kapowski.
posted by deadfather at 2:13 PM on June 8, 2006


I swapped a moneybelt for a copy of Women once. I quite liked it. It was good like baked beans is good - it's food and it doesn't taste like crud. If I ever come across anything else by him, I'll probably read it.
posted by Sparx at 2:19 PM on June 8, 2006


Bukowski inspired a generation of self-obsessed, nihilistic, misogynistic, drunk assholes into thinking they were poets.

In my experience, it goes like this:
Palahniuk > Easton-Ellis > Kerouac > Bukowski

Camus is probably in there somewhere too.

And then you fancy yourself a writer and you write short stories about how many drugs you do or how you drink all the time or what a gosh-darn misanthrope you are. You're a real wild spirit! You're a little crazy, a little on the fringe, but still lovable and probably just misunderstood but, hey, if you fuck me, that might fix things!

People like James Frey, for instance - and even then, he had to make it all up!

It's not to say those writers (Kerouac, Bukowski) are without merit or aren't worth reading. It's just the people who sit around trying to imitate them I can't stand.
posted by StopMakingSense at 3:12 PM on June 8, 2006


Alvy and goodnews. . email me if you really want to hear about it. I'm a bit nervous about telling this story in public.
posted by Danf at 4:10 PM on June 8, 2006


Factotum, with Matt Dillon and Lili Taylor, is a fun adaptation that didn't get a lot of attention.
posted by muckster at 5:36 PM on June 8, 2006


muckster -

Thanks.

Living out here in the sticks, I've never even heard of "Factotum." I'll definitely try to check it out.
posted by rougy at 5:44 PM on June 8, 2006


Writers weren't made for liking or disliking. You either like what they write or you don't, and that's all that matters about them, even if the writing is The Education of Little Tree or The Works of Ern Malley.

Quoted for truth.

Much has been written and said about Bukowski over the years, and much of it is no doubt bullshit. For my part, I think the man's writing was honest about the things that counted, and sometimes that's enough.

The man himself, and the drink? Well, a short anecdote might explain my feelings about that, beyond what pracowity said. When I was a much younger man, among the many writers whose work I loved with great fervor were Kerouac and the other beats.

Now, I am no homophobe by any stretch of the imagination, but years later, when I learned (random autodidact that I am, I sometimes miss a lot of what others better educated take for granted) how much time they'd spent sucking each others' dicks, I was, well, somehow discomfited. I mean, I knew that Burroughs was all over the map sexually ('Queer' was a bit of a giveaway) and Ginsberg was Big Gay Al, but somehow the reality of the writhing mass of roiling druggedup manmeat that was their gang hadn't percolated through to me.

It's hard to explain, a little: I suppose that because I had predicated no small amount of the things I believed, the way I looked at life, and the way I'd been forming my character as a young man were drawn from what I was reading, it felt a little... precarious all of a sudden. Because even though I was sensitive and writerly and all that, I perceived myself as fairly aggressively masculine. It confused me, mostly because I was young and hadn't thought these things out entirely. It wasn't wrong to be gay, of course, but it felt wrong for me. I discovered that I'd invested far too much of myself in the writers, and not enough perhaps, in their work.

Which does militate to some extent against what pracowity said, and what I quoted above, I know, but that was then and this is now.

But the thing is: I realized that it didn't matter. It didn't matter whether the beats were having a big mantrain down bunghole boulevard every night before getting high and writing some shit. It didn't matter if Bukowski was a drunken bastard, a misanthrope and a malevolent troll. It didn't matter that Henry Miller was a cadger and a bum and a misogynist.

It was their work that spoke to me, and even if they were writing autobiographically, as most of them were, loving the lessons that the work taught me was not the same as loving the people who produced the work. Both are possible, certainly, but not required. Heroes, literary of otherwise, I came to believe, are for the weak and confused. Corporeal stand-ins for the gods, lavished with idolatry out of the same kind of urge to personify the good as something external to ourselves.

Comforting, perhaps, but not very useful.

(Crikey, that turned out a bit long. Sorry.)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:51 PM on June 8, 2006


Factotum, with Matt Dillon and Lili Taylor, is a fun adaptation that didn't get a lot of attention.

I loathed it. I've been wanting to watch it again, but haven't been able to bring myself to do so. Much as I disliked Barfly way back when in many ways (and liked it a lot in others, I admit), Factotum missed the marks, all of them, even more widely.

With the recent resurgence of Mickey Rourke (I thought he was unexpectedly splendid in both Spun and Sin City), I recently rewatched Barfly, actually, and though it's heavy with Hollywood silliness, I still like it quite a lot.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:55 PM on June 8, 2006


I have not seen Factotum; it's one of my least fave of Bukowski's books, too, so no rush to check it out.

I like Barfly. I don't like Tales of Ordinary Madness. I've never been able to find Love is a Fat Woman, so can't comment on it.

Quiet Desperation: here's an mp3 of buk reading Style and one of Hot, another fave poem of mine that he wrote.

Palahniuk > Easton-Ellis > Kerouac > Bukowski

Are those arrows or greater than signs? If the latter, and you mean the quality of writing, I think you're off your tree, but mostly because I think Palahniuk is an awful writer with some terrific ideas.

And I don't know how anyone who reads Women can think Bukowski's a misogynist.
posted by dobbs at 6:12 PM on June 8, 2006


Oh! They're arrows. I should've given them little tails. Cute, cute little tails.
posted by StopMakingSense at 8:26 PM on June 8, 2006


dobbs -

Fucking a! Thanks for those *.mp3's. I had a really hip girlfriend back in Denver, and her brother found a video of Bukowski reading his stories to some students in a college. And unforgettable experience.

Stavros -

I don't get you, man. You seem to like the same authors that I like, but the fact that they were bisexual just... really didn't matter to me. I'm glad you had your epiphany. So many don’t.

And I disagree, regarding heroes. The hero as archetype is as old as mankind. To dispense with that imagery is like a ship discarding its rudder. A person without heroes, without people to look up to and emulate, rarely have much to offer. I think it's more unnatural and fruitless to go through life without a hero image.

Heroes: comforting, indeed, and absolutely vital.
posted by rougy at 9:11 PM on June 8, 2006


yeah, i've got some video of him reading as well as the 4 hr documentary that Barbet Schroeder made. I've also got about 4 albums of him reading. Those two mp3s above are from his best readin, imo: Poems and Insults.
posted by dobbs at 9:59 PM on June 8, 2006


I also have hours and hours of his readings. My favorite would have to be Hostage. I found it by chance in my small town K-mart when I was a teenager, and it blew my mind. If you can wangle yourself an Oink invite, you'll find most of his stuff available there (and much else).

Born Into This, the doco discussed in the link from the original post, is definitely good stuff, too.

And I disagree, regarding heroes. The hero as archetype is as old as mankind. To dispense with that imagery is like a ship discarding its rudder. A person without heroes, without people to look up to and emulate, rarely have much to offer. I think it's more unnatural and fruitless to go through life without a hero image.

Eh, that's cool. I was kind of riffing there, to be honest. I think that there are probably ways to have heroes (and deities) that are constructive and resonant and yield the good oil when squeezed, and ways that are not. The latter way leads us to celebrity worship and athlete idolatry, and to the kind of [opens can of worms] christianity that seems to hold sway in America these days [/closes can of worms], the kind that cherishes meaning and message less than tribalism and crowd control.

I should take care not to lump to two ways together. It's too easy to do.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:13 PM on June 8, 2006


Also: Stavros - I don't get you, man.

That's a bummer. I tried to explain something very nuanced as carefully and succinctly as I could, but I guess I failed. Good exercise, anyway, I guess.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:15 PM on June 8, 2006


I never have and never will meet Henry Charles Bukowski. I'll never know for sure what sort of a person he was, but I know that some of his writing is very, very good, indeed. And now I know that most of his paintings are very, very bad.
posted by bunglin jones at 10:51 PM on June 8, 2006


liam, Thank you for that link to a useful database.

I love Bukowski's poetry. Not all of it but many of his poems.
Sometimes just the titles were wonderful to read, like
The Days Run Away Like Wild Horses Over the Hills.

Two of my favorite poems of his are Bluebird and the other is Something For the Touts, the Nuns, the Grocery Clerks and You.

Here are some YouTube videos of various Bukowski related things, of his grave, of Buk walking and reading a poem, Buk reading a poem, Buk reading momentarily and people who knew him talking negatively about his acting out. An animated film of somebody reading a Bukowski poem about his childhood, called The Man with the Beautiful Eyes. A sardonic film of Buk reading to kindergarden kids, The Last Days of the Suicide Kid. Trailer for the movie, Factotum, with Matt Dillon playing Buk. Poem animation of a Buk poem, It's Ours. Bukowski interview #1, Bukowski interview #2.
posted by nickyskye at 11:14 PM on June 8, 2006


Palahniuk > Easton-Ellis > Kerouac > Bukowski

I hope this model isn't designed to represent artistic influence.
posted by mrmojoflying at 5:30 AM on June 9, 2006


Palahniuk > Easton-Ellis > Kerouac > Bukowski

Yeah, this is total bs, ANYway you look at it.
posted by nickyskye at 10:40 AM on June 9, 2006


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