Comma Chameleon
August 7, 2006 8:37 AM Subscribe
The Importance of Punctuation. A single misplaced comma in a 14-page contact costs Rogers Cable a couple million dollars, and could have cost them tens of millions. Remember, folks, punctuation has meaning!
!
posted by lemonfridge at 8:41 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by lemonfridge at 8:41 AM on August 7, 2006
I'm sure you mean 'contract' and not 'contact.' No matter, you still owe me $2.13 million.
posted by Tacodog at 8:44 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by Tacodog at 8:44 AM on August 7, 2006
I meant "!", of course.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:46 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:46 AM on August 7, 2006
This kind of nitpickiness means that everyone who deals with Aliant in the future will be expecting to get ripped off by them.
I wouldn't do business with a company like that.
posted by nyxxxx at 8:50 AM on August 7, 2006
I wouldn't do business with a company like that.
posted by nyxxxx at 8:50 AM on August 7, 2006
The agreement...
"shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made, and thereafter for successive five year terms, unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party."
"shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made, and thereafter for successive five year terms unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party."
Wow, that sucks. I'm surprised the article didn't include info about the average length of this kind of contract between other companies; it seems relevant to determining if Aliant originally signed on to the 2nd meaning, then realized later they could weasel out on a grammar technicality to get more money. Stupid court decision, if a one-year cancellation notice is rare in that business.
posted by mediareport at 8:55 AM on August 7, 2006
"shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made, and thereafter for successive five year terms, unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party."
"shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made, and thereafter for successive five year terms unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party."
Wow, that sucks. I'm surprised the article didn't include info about the average length of this kind of contract between other companies; it seems relevant to determining if Aliant originally signed on to the 2nd meaning, then realized later they could weasel out on a grammar technicality to get more money. Stupid court decision, if a one-year cancellation notice is rare in that business.
posted by mediareport at 8:55 AM on August 7, 2006
Er, Commision decision.
posted by mediareport at 8:56 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by mediareport at 8:56 AM on August 7, 2006
This kind of nitpickiness means that everyone who deals with Aliant in the future will be expecting to get ripped off by them.
Really? Perhaps they actually read it in the way that it was worded and entered into the contract in that manner. What if Rogers claimed they meant ten years instead of five, and it was just a typo? Would it be okay for Aliant to disagree, or would that be nitpickiness, too?
posted by Plutor at 8:56 AM on August 7, 2006
Really? Perhaps they actually read it in the way that it was worded and entered into the contract in that manner. What if Rogers claimed they meant ten years instead of five, and it was just a typo? Would it be okay for Aliant to disagree, or would that be nitpickiness, too?
posted by Plutor at 8:56 AM on August 7, 2006
And that's the problem with loopholes in the real world. They only work in hostile situations since they poison the waters.
posted by smackfu at 9:00 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by smackfu at 9:00 AM on August 7, 2006
It's not a loophole. Either the contract allows cancellation within the first five years or it doesn't; you have to read the contract to know which it is.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:06 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:06 AM on August 7, 2006
They'd like to dedicate that contract to their parents, Ayn Rand and God.
Commas are important, kids. With that extra comma, the contract clause stated that prices were negotiated in five year blocks, but could be cancelled with one year notice.
Of course, the lawyer who approved that contract is going to feel some heat.
It's not just commas. Capital letters can be critical as well. See the famous sentence "I helped my uncle Jack off the horse."
posted by eriko at 9:09 AM on August 7, 2006
Commas are important, kids. With that extra comma, the contract clause stated that prices were negotiated in five year blocks, but could be cancelled with one year notice.
Of course, the lawyer who approved that contract is going to feel some heat.
It's not just commas. Capital letters can be critical as well. See the famous sentence "I helped my uncle Jack off the horse."
posted by eriko at 9:09 AM on August 7, 2006
They'd like to dedicate that contract to their parents, Ayn Rand and God.
Commas are important, kids. With that extra comma, the contract clause stated that prices were negotiated in five year blocks, but could be cancelled with one year notice.
Of course, the lawyer who approved that contract is going to feel some heat.
It's not just commas. Capital letters can be critical as well. See the famous sentence "I helped my uncle Jack off the horse."
posted by eriko at 9:09 AM on August 7, 2006
Commas are important, kids. With that extra comma, the contract clause stated that prices were negotiated in five year blocks, but could be cancelled with one year notice.
Of course, the lawyer who approved that contract is going to feel some heat.
It's not just commas. Capital letters can be critical as well. See the famous sentence "I helped my uncle Jack off the horse."
posted by eriko at 9:09 AM on August 7, 2006
Does "anal retentive" have a hyphen?
The Well-Tempered Sentence — A Punctuation Handbook for the Innocent, the Eager, and the Doomed is always a handy reference while writing that big contract.
posted by cenoxo at 9:09 AM on August 7, 2006
The Well-Tempered Sentence — A Punctuation Handbook for the Innocent, the Eager, and the Doomed is always a handy reference while writing that big contract.
posted by cenoxo at 9:09 AM on August 7, 2006
Does "anal retentive" have a hyphen?
Only if used as an adjective.
Q: How many copyeditors does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Well, it took 47 on page 25.
posted by eriko at 9:13 AM on August 7, 2006
Only if used as an adjective.
Q: How many copyeditors does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Well, it took 47 on page 25.
posted by eriko at 9:13 AM on August 7, 2006
Proper comma, use is important.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:16 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:16 AM on August 7, 2006
"A kiss can be a comma, a question mark, or an excalamation point. That's a basic spelling that every woman should know."
-Jeanne Bourgeois
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:22 AM on August 7, 2006
-Jeanne Bourgeois
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:22 AM on August 7, 2006
I'm curious who wrote that sentence. Was it one of Aliant's lawyers or Rogers's?
posted by justkevin at 9:24 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by justkevin at 9:24 AM on August 7, 2006
Ha, ha!
posted by orthogonality at 9:41 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by orthogonality at 9:41 AM on August 7, 2006
After winning the case, it's unfortunate that Alliant followed up with “This is a classic case of where the placement of a comma has great importance.”
posted by nickmark at 9:42 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by nickmark at 9:42 AM on August 7, 2006
The second comma would make the mention of a specific contractual timeframe irrelevant and even more ridiculously irrelevant the idea of renewing for successive terms. By insisting the comma is legit it’s like saying the contract may as well have meant:
“shall continue in force for a period of eternity/irrelevant from the date it is made, unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party”.
So why include all this “5 years” and “successive 5 years” business? That was just fun filler, the lawyers being random and pointless, etc. – all the stuff lawyers are notorious for.
posted by Chuckly at 9:58 AM on August 7, 2006
“shall continue in force for a period of eternity/irrelevant from the date it is made, unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party”.
So why include all this “5 years” and “successive 5 years” business? That was just fun filler, the lawyers being random and pointless, etc. – all the stuff lawyers are notorious for.
posted by Chuckly at 9:58 AM on August 7, 2006
"I helped my uncle Jack off the horse."
Which, of course, needs two commas around "Jack."
Meaning, "I helped my uncle, jack, off the horse" isn't as confusing as you'd think.
And to nitpick further, everyone knows it only takes one person to jack off a horse. Sheesh.
posted by Terminal Verbosity at 10:03 AM on August 7, 2006
Which, of course, needs two commas around "Jack."
Meaning, "I helped my uncle, jack, off the horse" isn't as confusing as you'd think.
And to nitpick further, everyone knows it only takes one person to jack off a horse. Sheesh.
posted by Terminal Verbosity at 10:03 AM on August 7, 2006
I don't see why the comma makes any real difference. The sentence is ambiguous either way. Rogers' lawyers should be ashamed of themselves not for allowing the comma to be included, but for drafting a sentence that sucky.
posted by meeeeeep at 10:06 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by meeeeeep at 10:06 AM on August 7, 2006
I'm sure you mean 'contract' and not 'contact.'
Opps.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:18 AM on August 7, 2006
Opps.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:18 AM on August 7, 2006
"I helped my uncle Jack off the horse."
Which, of course, needs two commas around "Jack."
Meaning, "I helped my uncle, jack, off the horse" isn't as confusing as you'd think.
Okey dokey. How about just
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 10:28 AM on August 7, 2006
Which, of course, needs two commas around "Jack."
Meaning, "I helped my uncle, jack, off the horse" isn't as confusing as you'd think.
Okey dokey. How about just
I helped Jack off the horse.Where do the commas go now?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 10:28 AM on August 7, 2006
MeFi: Where we argue about how to help jack off a horse.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:52 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 10:52 AM on August 7, 2006
PinkStainlessTail - you wouldn't need commas. The sentence is correct as it stands. If you wanted to write the more pornographic sentence, it would be constructed as such:
I helped jack-off the horse.
posted by jivadravya at 10:52 AM on August 7, 2006
I helped jack-off the horse.
posted by jivadravya at 10:52 AM on August 7, 2006
Typically, phrasal verbs only take a hyphen when used as an adjective or noun, jivadravya.
posted by hilker at 11:12 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by hilker at 11:12 AM on August 7, 2006
I would use this... I was going to help "jack-off" the horse, but this bunch of jack-offs would not stop arguing about punctuation.
posted by Megafly at 11:20 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by Megafly at 11:20 AM on August 7, 2006
hilker: typically, yes. My usage was directly lifted from OED usage for "jerk-off" which has the same meaning as "jack-off", to wit:
jerk-off, a.
[f. vbl. phr. to jerk off (JERK v.1 8).]
(adjective, yes, which further reiforces your call-out).
Stupid slang! Be more normal!
Perhaps "jackoff" would be better, but would have changed PinkStainlessTail's sentence too much?
Dammit.
posted by jivadravya at 11:32 AM on August 7, 2006
jerk-off, a.
[f. vbl. phr. to jerk off (JERK v.1 8).]
(adjective, yes, which further reiforces your call-out).
Stupid slang! Be more normal!
Perhaps "jackoff" would be better, but would have changed PinkStainlessTail's sentence too much?
Dammit.
posted by jivadravya at 11:32 AM on August 7, 2006
I would use this... I was going to help "jack-off" the horse, but this bunch of jack-offs would not stop arguing about punctuation.
The noun takes a hyphen: "He is a jack-off." The verb does not: "He is going to jack off."
I helped my uncle Jack off the horse = I helped my uncle, who is named Jack, kill the horse, perhaps a mafia guy called the horse.
I helped my uncle, jack-off the horse = I helped my uncle. His mafia name is jack-off the horse.
I helped my uncle jack off, the horse = I helped my uncle masturbate, and he's like a horse!
I helped, my uncle, jack off the horse = I am explaining, dear reader, to my uncle that I helped to masturbate the horse.
I helped my uncle; Jack off the horse = I did my part; you do yours.
posted by pracowity at 11:35 AM on August 7, 2006 [13 favorites]
The noun takes a hyphen: "He is a jack-off." The verb does not: "He is going to jack off."
I helped my uncle Jack off the horse = I helped my uncle, who is named Jack, kill the horse, perhaps a mafia guy called the horse.
I helped my uncle, jack-off the horse = I helped my uncle. His mafia name is jack-off the horse.
I helped my uncle jack off, the horse = I helped my uncle masturbate, and he's like a horse!
I helped, my uncle, jack off the horse = I am explaining, dear reader, to my uncle that I helped to masturbate the horse.
I helped my uncle; Jack off the horse = I did my part; you do yours.
posted by pracowity at 11:35 AM on August 7, 2006 [13 favorites]
"I helped my uncle Jack off the horse."
Which, of course, needs two commas around "Jack."
Well, actually, it needs commas only if you have but one uncle. Otherwise, no.
(Also, eriko, that is excellent.)
posted by dame at 11:38 AM on August 7, 2006
Which, of course, needs two commas around "Jack."
Well, actually, it needs commas only if you have but one uncle. Otherwise, no.
(Also, eriko, that is excellent.)
posted by dame at 11:38 AM on August 7, 2006
Hey you kids! Get my horse off!
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:39 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:39 AM on August 7, 2006
Now I know why I pay my attorneys $600 an hour.
posted by jason's_planet at 11:42 AM on August 7, 2006
posted by jason's_planet at 11:42 AM on August 7, 2006
Don't forget the ten flagrant grammar mistakes that make you look stupid, and that using all caps causes mild retardation.
posted by nlindstrom at 12:30 PM on August 7, 2006
posted by nlindstrom at 12:30 PM on August 7, 2006
Speakers of Portuguese will appreciate the importance of a comma in these sentences when spoken by your lover:
hoje não, tenho dor de cabeça.
hoje, não tenho dor de cabeça.
posted by jewzilla at 12:38 PM on August 7, 2006
hoje não, tenho dor de cabeça.
hoje, não tenho dor de cabeça.
posted by jewzilla at 12:38 PM on August 7, 2006
-Your portuguese lover said the second one to me last night.
posted by isopraxis at 12:43 PM on August 7, 2006
posted by isopraxis at 12:43 PM on August 7, 2006
"He made the robot fast."
1. He quickly constructed the robot.
2. He quickly picked out the robot hiding among the non-robots.
3. He quickly had sex with the robot.
4. He improved the robot so as to increase its speed.
5. He tied the robot down.
6. He deprived the robot of food.
7. He arrived in time to attend the festival of robots at which they gave up eating for a period of time.
Others?
Also, for fun, move the first word of the following sentence to any position. Hilarity ensues.
"Only he broke his leg."
posted by The Bellman at 12:49 PM on August 7, 2006 [1 favorite]
1. He quickly constructed the robot.
2. He quickly picked out the robot hiding among the non-robots.
3. He quickly had sex with the robot.
4. He improved the robot so as to increase its speed.
5. He tied the robot down.
6. He deprived the robot of food.
7. He arrived in time to attend the festival of robots at which they gave up eating for a period of time.
Others?
Also, for fun, move the first word of the following sentence to any position. Hilarity ensues.
"Only he broke his leg."
posted by The Bellman at 12:49 PM on August 7, 2006 [1 favorite]
What's interesting is that the intent of the parties to execute the contract carries a legal meaning unto itself. So, yeah, Aliant's argument in this case had to have been expressly, "Yes, we meant to do that. This isn't a loophole or a mistake or something we just now realized. We intended to word the contract that way from the beginning. If you misunderstood our intent ... bummer."
Which either makes them brilliant or liars. Or perhaps brilliant liars.
posted by frogan at 12:53 PM on August 7, 2006
Which either makes them brilliant or liars. Or perhaps brilliant liars.
posted by frogan at 12:53 PM on August 7, 2006
The comma that saved a human life:
Sentencing a man to Siberian exile and death, Czar Alexander III wrote the warrant that refused his last attempt at a pardon: "Pardon impossible, to be sent to Siberia." His wife, the Czarina moved the comma: "Pardon, impossible to be sent to Siberia."
source
posted by Pliskie at 1:13 PM on August 7, 2006
Sentencing a man to Siberian exile and death, Czar Alexander III wrote the warrant that refused his last attempt at a pardon: "Pardon impossible, to be sent to Siberia." His wife, the Czarina moved the comma: "Pardon, impossible to be sent to Siberia."
source
posted by Pliskie at 1:13 PM on August 7, 2006
"He made the robot fast."
I don't know if this is a dialect thing, but I don't understand where meaning #2 comes from and #3 is borderline.
The noun takes a hyphen: "He is a jack-off."
Whatever, jagoff.
posted by kittyprecious at 2:04 PM on August 7, 2006
I don't know if this is a dialect thing, but I don't understand where meaning #2 comes from and #3 is borderline.
The noun takes a hyphen: "He is a jack-off."
Whatever, jagoff.
posted by kittyprecious at 2:04 PM on August 7, 2006
Kitty: It might be dialect. To "make" someone who is in disguise means to see through the disguise. Undercover officers talk about being "made" -- it means your cover is blown. Now that I mention it there is also:
3a. He quickly bestowed on the robot the rights and privileges of a high ranking member of his mafia family.
And so on . . .
posted by The Bellman at 2:26 PM on August 7, 2006
3a. He quickly bestowed on the robot the rights and privileges of a high ranking member of his mafia family.
And so on . . .
posted by The Bellman at 2:26 PM on August 7, 2006
Wonderful post, fff (and extra points for the title). In his Fumblerules, William Safire noted that we should "Avoid commas, that are not necessary."
posted by LeLiLo at 3:23 PM on August 7, 2006
posted by LeLiLo at 3:23 PM on August 7, 2006
It would have been simple for both parties to clearly state rules for terminating the contract in another sentence or another part of the contract altogether--it's actually very important, legally--they didn't do so, and now Rogers is paying for not having caught that before signing. I'd be upset for them, but if they're like other Cable companies, they can easily afford it, and will pass it on to consumers anyway.
posted by amberglow at 3:58 PM on August 7, 2006
posted by amberglow at 3:58 PM on August 7, 2006
Dang, Lynne Truss was right. I guess I owe her a coke.
posted by Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson at 4:01 PM on August 7, 2006
posted by Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson at 4:01 PM on August 7, 2006
Ah. In that case:
8. He quickly shat the robot out.
posted by kittyprecious at 5:43 PM on August 7, 2006
8. He quickly shat the robot out.
posted by kittyprecious at 5:43 PM on August 7, 2006
I can't say as I'm especially surprised it happened. It's a cut-throat industry. Frankly, I see this with a little Schadenfreude: had it been Rogers at the advantage, they'd have gloated all the way to the bank.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:46 PM on August 7, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 5:46 PM on August 7, 2006
"He?" quickly shat the robot: "Out."
posted by five fresh fish at 5:47 PM on August 7, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 5:47 PM on August 7, 2006
No punctuation:
bush sucks
dick cheney too
Punctuation:
Bush sucks dick. Cheney, too.
posted by leftcoastbob at 7:44 AM on August 8, 2006
bush sucks
dick cheney too
Punctuation:
Bush sucks dick. Cheney, too.
posted by leftcoastbob at 7:44 AM on August 8, 2006
9. He quickly ensured that the robot would have the mafia's protection and perks.
10. He quickly received his payment, which was the robot.
11. He ensured that the robot's color would not fade.
12. He quickly reached his destination, which was the robot.
13. He buffed the robot's surface, so it offered less friction to tiny vehicles.
14. He quickly drew the robot.
15. He programmed the robot to have lax morals.
16. The robot was incomplete, until he was quickly incorporated into it.
17. Helium aided the robot's speed.
posted by Terminal Verbosity at 7:46 AM on August 8, 2006
10. He quickly received his payment, which was the robot.
11. He ensured that the robot's color would not fade.
12. He quickly reached his destination, which was the robot.
13. He buffed the robot's surface, so it offered less friction to tiny vehicles.
14. He quickly drew the robot.
15. He programmed the robot to have lax morals.
16. The robot was incomplete, until he was quickly incorporated into it.
17. Helium aided the robot's speed.
posted by Terminal Verbosity at 7:46 AM on August 8, 2006
TV: I'm not sure about some of those but I love #15.
posted by The Bellman at 8:16 AM on August 8, 2006
posted by The Bellman at 8:16 AM on August 8, 2006
The trick to "He made the robot fast" lies in the number of different definitions for the words "make" and "fast". In the American Heritage dictionary, make has 41 transitive verb and 7 intransitive verb meanings, and fast has 15 adjective, 17 adverb, 2 intransitive verb, and 2 noun meanings.
posted by Plutor at 10:19 AM on August 8, 2006
posted by Plutor at 10:19 AM on August 8, 2006
I have not the foggiest idea what y'all are talking about. Please enlighten!
posted by five fresh fish at 7:24 PM on August 8, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 7:24 PM on August 8, 2006
16b. The robot was not very speedy until he was incorporated into it.
posted by lodurr at 4:28 AM on August 9, 2006
posted by lodurr at 4:28 AM on August 9, 2006
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posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:39 AM on August 7, 2006