It must be election season
October 19, 2006 11:16 AM Subscribe
A letter, written in Spanish, sent to an estimated 14,000 Democratic voters in central Orange County, tells recipients: "You are advised that if your residence in this country is illegal or you are an immigrant, voting in a federal election is a crime that could result in jail time." A fine example of often-GOP tactic called "caging" but you can call it good ol' intimidation, and just for sake of irony the guilty appears to be the campaign of GOP Congressional candidate Tan Nguyen who is himself an immigrant. You may also recall his party is fond of drafting legislation to complicate the ballot process with voter id requirements and thus make caging a little more legal.
Who'd think I'd ever be in agreement with an Orange County Republican:
Scott Baugh, chairman of the Orange County Republican Party, condemned the letter as "an obnoxious, grotesque piece of work."
"Regardless of who did it — Republican or Democrat — if it's a crime, then whoever did it should be prosecuted," Baugh said.
posted by vacapinta at 11:28 AM on October 19, 2006
Scott Baugh, chairman of the Orange County Republican Party, condemned the letter as "an obnoxious, grotesque piece of work."
"Regardless of who did it — Republican or Democrat — if it's a crime, then whoever did it should be prosecuted," Baugh said.
posted by vacapinta at 11:28 AM on October 19, 2006
2sheets, LGF is over there somewhere.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:28 AM on October 19, 2006
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:28 AM on October 19, 2006
you know, im going to go for it. the first article states:
It is illegal to threaten or intimidate voters, though, and the complaints about the letters that began surfacing this week prompted state and federal investigations.
technically, the letter only serves to threaten non-naturalized and/or illegal immigrants, who are not eligible to vote. so you're intimidating non-voters?
plus whats with the "complicate the ballot process"... "with voter id requirements"? that was not the party's justification for the id legislation, plus a lot of democrats were behind it. i refuse to believe that there are people so poor, or disenfranchised, that they cant get their shit together to obtain state identification, yet they vote.
posted by phaedon at 11:30 AM on October 19, 2006
It is illegal to threaten or intimidate voters, though, and the complaints about the letters that began surfacing this week prompted state and federal investigations.
technically, the letter only serves to threaten non-naturalized and/or illegal immigrants, who are not eligible to vote. so you're intimidating non-voters?
plus whats with the "complicate the ballot process"... "with voter id requirements"? that was not the party's justification for the id legislation, plus a lot of democrats were behind it. i refuse to believe that there are people so poor, or disenfranchised, that they cant get their shit together to obtain state identification, yet they vote.
posted by phaedon at 11:30 AM on October 19, 2006
poor ted kennedy. in the year 2536, neocons (who will then just be called "cons") will still be trotting him out as their one and only whipping-boy.
it'll be sorta like the mother in "Psycho".
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 11:31 AM on October 19, 2006
it'll be sorta like the mother in "Psycho".
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 11:31 AM on October 19, 2006
What, phaedon, haven't you read it?
"You are advised that if your residence in this country is illegal or you are an immigrant, voting in a federal election is a crime that could result in jail time."
posted by imperium at 11:32 AM on October 19, 2006
"You are advised that if your residence in this country is illegal or you are an immigrant, voting in a federal election is a crime that could result in jail time."
posted by imperium at 11:32 AM on October 19, 2006
I'm stunned. Is there any way they will get in trouble for sending such a letter?
posted by agregoli at 11:38 AM on October 19, 2006
posted by agregoli at 11:38 AM on October 19, 2006
i was just trying to elevate the discussion past "the guy who wrote this letter is obviously a moron" and get to the meat of question, namely, how far will the republican party go to "defend" the election system against fraudulent acts that - it has been implied over the years - tend to favor democratic candidates.. in so doing, i used the phrase "illegal" immigrants where the phrase "immigrants" was improperly used.. and im not going to defend that..
posted by phaedon at 11:39 AM on October 19, 2006
posted by phaedon at 11:39 AM on October 19, 2006
OOOHHHH!!!
wow, at first I was about to post something to the effect that "I am a D, but it _is_ a crime to vote if you are illegally in this country"......but after imperium was kind enough to provide emphasis...holy shit, that is messed up. That HAS to be illegal...or at least a very, very unfortunate typo.
posted by das_2099 at 11:41 AM on October 19, 2006
wow, at first I was about to post something to the effect that "I am a D, but it _is_ a crime to vote if you are illegally in this country"......but after imperium was kind enough to provide emphasis...holy shit, that is messed up. That HAS to be illegal...or at least a very, very unfortunate typo.
posted by das_2099 at 11:41 AM on October 19, 2006
Does the fact that they are registered Democratic voters not imply they are not illegal?
posted by Ynoxas at 11:44 AM on October 19, 2006
posted by Ynoxas at 11:44 AM on October 19, 2006
phaedon, your suggestion is that this letter attempts to to "defend the election system against fraudulent acts"? A very generous supposition indeed. I think pretty much everyone else is assuming its purpose is to intimidate eligable voters who weren't born in this country (not unlike the candidate itself) into being afraid to vote.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:44 AM on October 19, 2006
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:44 AM on October 19, 2006
can somebody find me a relatively contemporary instance of illegal immigrants actually voting in the US? it seems like that would be incredibly difficult to accomplish. OBVIOUSLY this letter is meant to scare off legal immigrants from voting.
posted by punkbitch at 11:44 AM on October 19, 2006
posted by punkbitch at 11:44 AM on October 19, 2006
Nice, hopefully they'll make sure the police plenty visible are at all the polling centers to make certain that those damn immigrants know that if they try to vote, they'll be goin' down.
Ideally, the day of the election they could also have some vans painted up with INS to drive through the barrios. Just to, you know, keep the foreigners hidden in their houses.
It would be good to hear that Baugh actually makes an attempt to go after whoever sent these out. It would be nice to see someone on the right take a principled stand on something that goes against the best interests of the GOP.
posted by quin at 11:46 AM on October 19, 2006
Ideally, the day of the election they could also have some vans painted up with INS to drive through the barrios. Just to, you know, keep the foreigners hidden in their houses.
It would be good to hear that Baugh actually makes an attempt to go after whoever sent these out. It would be nice to see someone on the right take a principled stand on something that goes against the best interests of the GOP.
posted by quin at 11:46 AM on October 19, 2006
plus whats with the "complicate the ballot process"... "with voter id requirements"?
FWIW Missouri's Republican-controlled legislature passed a voter ID requirement last session. It required voters to show a state-issued ID at the time of voting.
A couple of days ago the state Supreme Court struck it down.
posted by flug at 11:47 AM on October 19, 2006
FWIW Missouri's Republican-controlled legislature passed a voter ID requirement last session. It required voters to show a state-issued ID at the time of voting.
A couple of days ago the state Supreme Court struck it down.
posted by flug at 11:47 AM on October 19, 2006
can somebody find me a relatively contemporary instance of illegal immigrants actually voting in the US?
None to speak of. This is just a Republican talking point to try and steal the "vote integrity" issue away from the Democrats.
The gall they have to pretend they are protecting voting rights when they passed HAVA and are in bed with the voting machine companies is astounding.
Sounds like an unfortunate typo to me.
You never cease to fail to amaze me.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:02 PM on October 19, 2006
None to speak of. This is just a Republican talking point to try and steal the "vote integrity" issue away from the Democrats.
The gall they have to pretend they are protecting voting rights when they passed HAVA and are in bed with the voting machine companies is astounding.
Sounds like an unfortunate typo to me.
You never cease to fail to amaze me.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:02 PM on October 19, 2006
technically, the letter only serves to threaten non-naturalized and/or illegal immigrants, who are not eligible to vote. so you're intimidating non-voters?
No, technically the letter says that all immigrants, anyone born outside of the country, cannot vote. Most people would understand that they probably only mean non-citizens, but they don't say that. They say all immigrants cannot vote.
During the last cycle I remember a local fox affiliate broadcasting a story about how out of state students at Arizona State registering to vote were violating some law, even though federal law made it explicitly legal to vote where you go to school. The entire point of the story was to scare people.
i refuse to believe that there are people so poor, or disenfranchised, that they cant get their shit together to obtain state identification, yet they vote.
Oh, you refuse to believe it eh? Well then, obviously it can't be true. A sterling example of logic, sir!
posted by delmoi at 12:03 PM on October 19, 2006
No, technically the letter says that all immigrants, anyone born outside of the country, cannot vote. Most people would understand that they probably only mean non-citizens, but they don't say that. They say all immigrants cannot vote.
During the last cycle I remember a local fox affiliate broadcasting a story about how out of state students at Arizona State registering to vote were violating some law, even though federal law made it explicitly legal to vote where you go to school. The entire point of the story was to scare people.
i refuse to believe that there are people so poor, or disenfranchised, that they cant get their shit together to obtain state identification, yet they vote.
Oh, you refuse to believe it eh? Well then, obviously it can't be true. A sterling example of logic, sir!
posted by delmoi at 12:03 PM on October 19, 2006
One thing about these debates that suprises me is when people ask things like "how can you vote without ID, I do it!" as if everything is exactly the same in their state. For the record, I have never once had to show ID in the four elections I've participated in.
In Iowa, identification is done by comparing your signature with the signature you put on your voter registration form. Simple, effective, and requires no technology or effort.
posted by delmoi at 12:06 PM on October 19, 2006
In Iowa, identification is done by comparing your signature with the signature you put on your voter registration form. Simple, effective, and requires no technology or effort.
posted by delmoi at 12:06 PM on October 19, 2006
You never cease to fail to amaze me.
Are you serious? Have you seen how well the average person writes? They probably wrote it in English, threw the goddamned text in Babelfish and called it good.
posted by keswick at 12:10 PM on October 19, 2006
Are you serious? Have you seen how well the average person writes? They probably wrote it in English, threw the goddamned text in Babelfish and called it good.
posted by keswick at 12:10 PM on October 19, 2006
As superficially reasonable as that interpretation sounds, what you fail to realize is that it gives me no opportunity to dis you.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:12 PM on October 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:12 PM on October 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
Sounds like an unfortunate typo to me.
That would certainly be my response if I were associated with the Nguyen campaign or the company that sent these letters out.
I wonder if it matters whether they claim it's a typo, though. I mean, theletters were sent to registered voters who are not illegal. Claiming that it's a typo would just make them look incompetent as well as bullying.
posted by gurple at 12:12 PM on October 19, 2006
That would certainly be my response if I were associated with the Nguyen campaign or the company that sent these letters out.
I wonder if it matters whether they claim it's a typo, though. I mean, theletters were sent to registered voters who are not illegal. Claiming that it's a typo would just make them look incompetent as well as bullying.
posted by gurple at 12:12 PM on October 19, 2006
"Regardless of who did it — Republican or Democrat — if it's a crime, then whoever did it should be prosecuted," Baugh said.
I agree. If it was Tan Nguyen, Bush could declare him an 'Enemy Combatant' and have him disappeared forever. That's what you get for threatening Democracy, punk!
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:16 PM on October 19, 2006
I agree. If it was Tan Nguyen, Bush could declare him an 'Enemy Combatant' and have him disappeared forever. That's what you get for threatening Democracy, punk!
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:16 PM on October 19, 2006
except i'm trying to imagine the syntax that would allow for "residing in this county illegally" and then "OR an immigrant."
it would be odd to say 'O un inmigrante' after saying 'siendo ilegal' or even 'residiendo (or viviendo) ilegalmente.'
posted by punkbitch at 12:19 PM on October 19, 2006
it would be odd to say 'O un inmigrante' after saying 'siendo ilegal' or even 'residiendo (or viviendo) ilegalmente.'
posted by punkbitch at 12:19 PM on October 19, 2006
quin writes "Nice, hopefully they'll make sure the police plenty visible are at all the polling centers to make certain that those damn immigrants know that if they try to vote, they'll be goin' down."
They tried that one back in '88. You're gonna have a hard time coming up with a voter intimidation tactic that the OC GOP hasn't already tried....
posted by mr_roboto at 12:22 PM on October 19, 2006
They tried that one back in '88. You're gonna have a hard time coming up with a voter intimidation tactic that the OC GOP hasn't already tried....
posted by mr_roboto at 12:22 PM on October 19, 2006
As superficially reasonable as that interpretation sounds, what you fail to realize is that it gives me no opportunity to dis you.
Yes, but there are plenty of other reasons to dis me.
posted by keswick at 12:36 PM on October 19, 2006
Yes, but there are plenty of other reasons to dis me.
posted by keswick at 12:36 PM on October 19, 2006
This LA Times article has more details and video clip, and states that the letter "also warns that the state has developed a tracking system that will allow the names of Latino voters to be handed over to anti-immigrant groups." Wow.
I haven't found a copy of the original letter online.
posted by StarForce5 at 12:41 PM on October 19, 2006
I haven't found a copy of the original letter online.
posted by StarForce5 at 12:41 PM on October 19, 2006
They probably wrote it in English, threw the goddamned text in Babelfish and called it good.
Who knows? you may be right. Can anyone dig up for me the text of this letter in Spanish?
If so, I could quickly tell you the fluency of the person who wrote it and thus leave no doubts about that the intention was...
posted by vacapinta at 12:47 PM on October 19, 2006
Who knows? you may be right. Can anyone dig up for me the text of this letter in Spanish?
If so, I could quickly tell you the fluency of the person who wrote it and thus leave no doubts about that the intention was...
posted by vacapinta at 12:47 PM on October 19, 2006
punkbitch writes "it would be odd to say 'O un inmigrante' after saying 'siendo ilegal' or even 'residiendo (or viviendo) ilegalmente.'"
OK; I finally managed to find a PDF of "The Letter." The exact wording is "Se le avisa que si su residencia en este pais es ilegal o si es emigrado...." Seems pretty unambiguous to me. I don't know how it would be a typo... it's tough for your fingers to slip and leave out the entirety of the words "who has not been naturalized as a US citizen".
posted by mr_roboto at 12:49 PM on October 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
OK; I finally managed to find a PDF of "The Letter." The exact wording is "Se le avisa que si su residencia en este pais es ilegal o si es emigrado...." Seems pretty unambiguous to me. I don't know how it would be a typo... it's tough for your fingers to slip and leave out the entirety of the words "who has not been naturalized as a US citizen".
posted by mr_roboto at 12:49 PM on October 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
Why isn't trickery that wrongly disfranchises people from voting also considered fraud? The mainstream discussion on voter fraud concedes way too much to how Republicans define "fraud."
posted by jonp72 at 1:04 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by jonp72 at 1:04 PM on October 19, 2006
yeah. the 'si es emigrado' is redundant if your intention in writing it is to say 'if you are illegal in this country' - given that that's already expressed by 'si su residencia...es ilegal.'
posted by punkbitch at 1:08 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by punkbitch at 1:08 PM on October 19, 2006
Why isn't trickery that wrongly disfranchises people from voting also considered fraud?
Why isn't screwing with the democratic process considered treason?
posted by Western Infidels at 1:15 PM on October 19, 2006 [3 favorites]
Why isn't screwing with the democratic process considered treason?
posted by Western Infidels at 1:15 PM on October 19, 2006 [3 favorites]
Innocent lives extinguished by Ted Kennedy: >0.
Innocent lives extinguished by George W. Bush: >600,000 (and counting!).
posted by jamjam at 1:19 PM on October 19, 2006
Innocent lives extinguished by George W. Bush: >600,000 (and counting!).
posted by jamjam at 1:19 PM on October 19, 2006
Does it matter if it was "just a typo" that failed to exclude naturalized US citizens? What other possible justification, other than voter intimidation, could there have been for spending upward of $4000 to send these letters?
posted by zennie at 1:40 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by zennie at 1:40 PM on October 19, 2006
Innocent lives extinguished by Ted Kennedy: >0.
Innocent lives extinguished by George W. Bush: >600,000 (and counting!).
See, Ted Kennedy just isn't working hard enough to protect your freedoms!
posted by C.Batt at 1:48 PM on October 19, 2006
Innocent lives extinguished by George W. Bush: >600,000 (and counting!).
See, Ted Kennedy just isn't working hard enough to protect your freedoms!
posted by C.Batt at 1:48 PM on October 19, 2006
California
Phantom planet
We've be on the run
Driving in the sun
Looking out for number one
California, here we come
Right back where we started from
posted by srboisvert at 1:48 PM on October 19, 2006
Phantom planet
We've be on the run
Driving in the sun
Looking out for number one
California, here we come
Right back where we started from
posted by srboisvert at 1:48 PM on October 19, 2006
Intent and action are two seperate things, even if the intent was to not intimidate, the letter seems worded that it is reasonible to conclude there is intimidating in nature, tone and substance. Rarely does "Honest copper my intent was to drive the speed limit" work.
I think mr_roboto's got it. Seems to be a bit contrived to use typo as a defense, although we could call it the George Allen defense.
If I say "Fuck you" it seems a bit odd to come back and say, actually that is a typo, I ment to say "In no way do I want to say Fuck you".
Not sure how that's realivant to the topic jamjam.
posted by edgeways at 1:58 PM on October 19, 2006
I think mr_roboto's got it. Seems to be a bit contrived to use typo as a defense, although we could call it the George Allen defense.
If I say "Fuck you" it seems a bit odd to come back and say, actually that is a typo, I ment to say "In no way do I want to say Fuck you".
Not sure how that's realivant to the topic jamjam.
posted by edgeways at 1:58 PM on October 19, 2006
here is another intreesting story relating to immigrants and voting
posted by edgeways at 2:01 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by edgeways at 2:01 PM on October 19, 2006
This wasn't any typo. The Republican GOP wants the candidate to withdraw.
posted by ericb at 2:55 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by ericb at 2:55 PM on October 19, 2006
Sounds like an unfortunate typo to me.
Yep. It was a typo that caused it to read "or an immigrant". It was also an unfortunate mailing list error that caused it to be sent only to legal immigrants registered to vote Democratic. Aaaaaaaaaaand...it was a mere coincidence that there appears to be a link from the mailing list company back to the Republican running in that race (referring to the name the mailing list company gave investigators.)
Makes perfect sense to me. Right up there with the "computer glitches" that produce voting machine errors that, when noticed, disproportionally skew extra votes toward Republicans.
[takes a sip of kool-aid]
Ah! Refreshing.
posted by davejay at 3:10 PM on October 19, 2006 [2 favorites]
Yep. It was a typo that caused it to read "or an immigrant". It was also an unfortunate mailing list error that caused it to be sent only to legal immigrants registered to vote Democratic. Aaaaaaaaaaand...it was a mere coincidence that there appears to be a link from the mailing list company back to the Republican running in that race (referring to the name the mailing list company gave investigators.)
Makes perfect sense to me. Right up there with the "computer glitches" that produce voting machine errors that, when noticed, disproportionally skew extra votes toward Republicans.
[takes a sip of kool-aid]
Ah! Refreshing.
posted by davejay at 3:10 PM on October 19, 2006 [2 favorites]
Some of those "glitches" literally swap the tallies in the D/R columns.
posted by sonofsamiam at 3:11 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by sonofsamiam at 3:11 PM on October 19, 2006
Tan Nguyen has fired one of his minions, saying the letter "was disseminated without his authorization or approval." 73,000 letters mailed without his approval? Is this standard operating procedure during a campaign? (not a rhetorical question, I really don't know.)
posted by killy willy at 4:20 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by killy willy at 4:20 PM on October 19, 2006
apparently the DOJ is involved. I'd love to see this idiot go to jail over this, just like those phone jamming idiots from 2004.
posted by delmoi at 4:23 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by delmoi at 4:23 PM on October 19, 2006
73,000 letters mailed without his approval?
73k or 14k?
posted by smackfu at 4:41 PM on October 19, 2006
73k or 14k?
posted by smackfu at 4:41 PM on October 19, 2006
I don't think I understand the depth of stupidity.
TAN NGUYEN WAS BORN IN DANANG, VIETNAM IN 1973.
Tan is now threatening immigrants, illegal or naturalized? For shame, bastard!
posted by snsranch at 4:42 PM on October 19, 2006
TAN NGUYEN WAS BORN IN DANANG, VIETNAM IN 1973.
Tan is now threatening immigrants, illegal or naturalized? For shame, bastard!
posted by snsranch at 4:42 PM on October 19, 2006
There's history here. Mr. Tan's opponent is Lauren Sanchez. In 1996 she defeated Bob Dornan, a conservative republican and became the first latina representative from Orange County. For years afterward Dornan was squeaking about election fraud. Some election fraud was uncovered but not enough to invalidate the election. Dornan was being a sore loser and complaining, in code, about the demographic changes that OC was undergoing. It got pretty nasty.
posted by rdr at 5:37 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by rdr at 5:37 PM on October 19, 2006
Tan Nguyen should be publicly executed. I'm pretty tired of people interfering with the electoral process and it's about time to start cutting off heads.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:39 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:39 PM on October 19, 2006
What kind of message does this send about a party, that they give up (in places, ok) on winning by the strength of their message and move on to intimidation, fraud, placemen judges, gerrymandering, purchase of election machine companies, and the like?
This thread should link to the Taibbi one. Kick the bums out, American brothers and sisters. The other bums can't be 100% as bad.
posted by imperium at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2006
This thread should link to the Taibbi one. Kick the bums out, American brothers and sisters. The other bums can't be 100% as bad.
posted by imperium at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2006
A more stringent bound would be:
Innocent lives extinguished by Ted Kennedy <= 1
posted by snoktruix at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2006
Innocent lives extinguished by Ted Kennedy <= 1
posted by snoktruix at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2006
I'd be in favor of "complicating the voting system" by switching to the Canadian method ... paper ballots counted in the open where any voter can watch.
(And, oh yes, they get results in in a timely fashion. Presumably because their educational system works.)
That, and a couple of disabled Vets with shotguns for anyone that comes in with some "last minute" Diebold software changes.
posted by Twang at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2006
(And, oh yes, they get results in in a timely fashion. Presumably because their educational system works.)
That, and a couple of disabled Vets with shotguns for anyone that comes in with some "last minute" Diebold software changes.
posted by Twang at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2006
This FPP is a leeetle misleading. It would've been fair to point out that the guy himself is an immigrant, that he claims he had no knowledge before or after until it was brought to his attention, and that he fired the staffer he said was responsible.
#2 is an easy lie, #3 still simple to do, but #1? And all three together? I dunno. I just feel like the candidate should be innocent until/unless proven guilty, but I'm old-fashioned that way.
If he was at all responsible for sending out a letter that stated immigrants couldn't vote (period, end of story), then I'm all for the torches and pitchforks, though.
posted by booksandlibretti at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2006
#2 is an easy lie, #3 still simple to do, but #1? And all three together? I dunno. I just feel like the candidate should be innocent until/unless proven guilty, but I'm old-fashioned that way.
If he was at all responsible for sending out a letter that stated immigrants couldn't vote (period, end of story), then I'm all for the torches and pitchforks, though.
posted by booksandlibretti at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2006
Interestingly, according to the AP, "In 2004, he unsuccessfully ran in the Democratic primary to challenge GOP Rep. Dana Rohrabacher in a heavily Republican coastal district." So the guy ran as a Democrat in a heavily Republican district, now runs as a Republican in a Democratic district, and sends an anti-immigrant letter even though he's an immigrant himself. It's almost as if he likes losing elections.
posted by gyc at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by gyc at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2006
#2 is an easy lie, #3 still simple to do, but #1? And all three together? I dunno. I just feel like the candidate should be innocent until/unless proven guilty, but I'm old-fashioned that way.
One who gives Republicans the benefit of the doubt will invariably come to regret it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2006
One who gives Republicans the benefit of the doubt will invariably come to regret it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2006
booksandlibretti, I have to disagree. Who would know better than he what fear could be instilled by those letters? Hang him high! And yea, bring out the pitchforks already!
posted by snsranch at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by snsranch at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2006
I don't know whether this guy did it or not. I certainly don't consider him guilty beyond reasonable doubt -- that's all I'm saying.
And I think that taking rights/privileges away from subgroups of people based only on their affiliations is a bad thing.
posted by booksandlibretti at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2006
And I think that taking rights/privileges away from subgroups of people based only on their affiliations is a bad thing.
posted by booksandlibretti at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2006
booksandlibretti, just because he didn't personally draft the letter doesn't make him any less responsible for its content.
posted by curie at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by curie at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2006
No, it doesn't. My employer could be sued if I defrauded our clients. Similarly, the buck stops with Nguyen.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:05 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:05 PM on October 19, 2006
Ok. Suppose Nguyen didn't draft the letter. What other purpose other than intimidation could his campaign have for sending a letter to immigrant democratic voters? His campaign is mostly about appealing to the anti-immigrant crowd. I know he's an immigrant but in this context when people say anti-immigrant they mean anti-hispanic. In order to believe that Nguyen is innocent you have to believe that a rogue staffer sent out a mailing with him having no knowledge of the whole thing. To me that's not very believable.
posted by charm at 8:29 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by charm at 8:29 PM on October 19, 2006
Just to be clear charm is my sock puppet. I didn't mean to give the impression that I was someone else.
posted by rdr at 10:04 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by rdr at 10:04 PM on October 19, 2006
I don't understand. Why were these letters sent to registered Democratic voters? Surely the GOP, with its strong stand for morality, wouldn't want illegals voting Republican, would they?
posted by Goofyy at 11:27 PM on October 19, 2006
posted by Goofyy at 11:27 PM on October 19, 2006
I was tempted to go off on a tirade about how almost every US election process of any consequence ends up as a farce.
The world is laughing at your political system and government, Iraq and A-Q are bleeding you, NK is giving you the finger and China is about to steal your economy.
You're mostly great people, but wake the hell up.
posted by flippant at 2:08 AM on October 20, 2006
The world is laughing at your political system and government, Iraq and A-Q are bleeding you, NK is giving you the finger and China is about to steal your economy.
You're mostly great people, but wake the hell up.
posted by flippant at 2:08 AM on October 20, 2006
I just feel like the candidate should be innocent until/unless proven guilty, but I'm old-fashioned that way.
Jesus Christ, this isn't a court of law and you're not on a jury. This is real life, and you're entitled to use all available information plus your reasoning faculties to reach an appropriate conclusion. It isn't "old-fashioned" to assume yet another Republican asshole isn't pulling yet more Republican dirty tricks, it's... *looks down at caveat about "a healthy, respectful discussion"* ...not very sensible.
posted by languagehat at 5:48 AM on October 20, 2006 [1 favorite]
Jesus Christ, this isn't a court of law and you're not on a jury. This is real life, and you're entitled to use all available information plus your reasoning faculties to reach an appropriate conclusion. It isn't "old-fashioned" to assume yet another Republican asshole isn't pulling yet more Republican dirty tricks, it's... *looks down at caveat about "a healthy, respectful discussion"* ...not very sensible.
posted by languagehat at 5:48 AM on October 20, 2006 [1 favorite]
Preventing someone who would vote against you from voting has the same effect as getting someone additional to vote for you. -1 to the other side is the same as +1 to your side.
posted by talitha at 7:49 AM on October 20, 2006
posted by talitha at 7:49 AM on October 20, 2006
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IN YOUR FACE, LIBERALS
posted by 2sheets at 11:21 AM on October 19, 2006