Pot O' Gold on the Astral Plane
November 28, 2006 12:41 AM Subscribe
"We have an academic community in which people are free to explore ideas." Art student expelled after questioning a fellow classmate's belief in leprechauns. To be fair, he was actually expelled for his "aggressive, demeaning, and threatening" behavior. Oh, and he blogs.
How odd -- I didn't think you could get expelled from art school for being annoying in your interactions with others. Isn't some annoying behavior part and parcel of being a student generally, and an art student specifically?
His blog is out of date -- perhaps he used a school computer?
Side note: this could be the result of community rules (treat everyone with respect, etc.), procedures (here is how you file a grievance re lack of respect), and "consequences" -- all of which function better in principle than in reality.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 1:29 AM on November 28, 2006
His blog is out of date -- perhaps he used a school computer?
Side note: this could be the result of community rules (treat everyone with respect, etc.), procedures (here is how you file a grievance re lack of respect), and "consequences" -- all of which function better in principle than in reality.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 1:29 AM on November 28, 2006
If he's really "aggressive, demeaning, and threatening" and especially if this isn't the first complaint of that, then throw the asshole out. But I wonder, if he'd been an evangelical Christian instead of an atheist, would he have been tossed or would they have decided that his Christian evangelism (pushing his religion on others) was protected?
More importantly: there are people who actually believe in leprechauns? Why do I waste my time working when the frequency of sucker birth obviously has not diminished? And with so many religious schools out there, how come no one has started an atheist university?
posted by pracowity at 2:05 AM on November 28, 2006
More importantly: there are people who actually believe in leprechauns? Why do I waste my time working when the frequency of sucker birth obviously has not diminished? And with so many religious schools out there, how come no one has started an atheist university?
posted by pracowity at 2:05 AM on November 28, 2006
The guy in question also posted about it here.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 2:31 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 2:31 AM on November 28, 2006
it's well known that one must always be careful about what one says about the sidhe ...
posted by pyramid termite at 2:41 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by pyramid termite at 2:41 AM on November 28, 2006
Their mantra was 'no discussing religion in school,'
So now believing in leprechauns is classified as religion in the US?
posted by pleeker at 3:43 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
So now believing in leprechauns is classified as religion in the US?
posted by pleeker at 3:43 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
“According to an emailed letter from Engeldinger, Averill had violated the student conduct policy. The decision to dismiss Averill was "not the result of a single action on your part, but a series of actions. I believe that, in several instances, your actions have been aggressive, demeaning, and threatening and that this demonstrates a pattern of inappropriate and unacceptable behavior," Engeldinger wrote.”
I'm willing to reserve my opinion about the institution if what Engeldinger wrote is correct, and this student had already been involved several “inappropriate and unacceptable” actions.
Also, after reading the Penny Arcade forum link, the atheist student seems pretty level-headed.
I guess I'd have to through my hat in with the “there-must-be-more-to-it” camp.
That being said, and according to Wikipedia, “the Art Institutes (often abbreviated as Ai) is a collection of private, for-profit educational institutions...”
As a private institution, not a federal or state run institution, can't they throw out whoever for violation of their policies and bylaws?
posted by Colloquial Collision at 3:51 AM on November 28, 2006
I'm willing to reserve my opinion about the institution if what Engeldinger wrote is correct, and this student had already been involved several “inappropriate and unacceptable” actions.
Also, after reading the Penny Arcade forum link, the atheist student seems pretty level-headed.
I guess I'd have to through my hat in with the “there-must-be-more-to-it” camp.
That being said, and according to Wikipedia, “the Art Institutes (often abbreviated as Ai) is a collection of private, for-profit educational institutions...”
As a private institution, not a federal or state run institution, can't they throw out whoever for violation of their policies and bylaws?
posted by Colloquial Collision at 3:51 AM on November 28, 2006
The science fair entry on his blog is deeply disturbing.
posted by jacalata at 3:51 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by jacalata at 3:51 AM on November 28, 2006
“through my hat in...”
throw...throw...
Sorry about that. I even meant to correct it on preview.
posted by Colloquial Collision at 4:03 AM on November 28, 2006
throw...throw...
Sorry about that. I even meant to correct it on preview.
posted by Colloquial Collision at 4:03 AM on November 28, 2006
> If he's really "aggressive, demeaning, and threatening" and especially if this isn't the first
> complaint of that, then throw the asshole out.
Also, give the guy a mefi account quick. His peoples are right here.
> Why do I waste my time working when the frequency of sucker birth obviously has not
> diminished?
You were seriously expecting this to happen? Sucker! There you are, contributing to the other side.
posted by jfuller at 4:06 AM on November 28, 2006
> complaint of that, then throw the asshole out.
Also, give the guy a mefi account quick. His peoples are right here.
> Why do I waste my time working when the frequency of sucker birth obviously has not
> diminished?
You were seriously expecting this to happen? Sucker! There you are, contributing to the other side.
posted by jfuller at 4:06 AM on November 28, 2006
After reading the article and checking out his blog a bit, I'm left wonering, with pracowity, if maybe this Bovril kid simply IS "aggressive, demeaning, and threatening." It seems like he's always gone out of his way, since childhood, to try and be "provocative" and piss off Christians and people of other religious groups. Maybe the school just got tired of him making people feel uncomfortable.
posted by Pollomacho at 4:08 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by Pollomacho at 4:08 AM on November 28, 2006
Isn't demeaning aggressiveness the norm at these joints? I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that the usual inter-student vibe at art schools was about as mutually supportive and non-competitive as that of the gladiator green room in the Colloseum.
On the one hand, people with a long history of being confrontational creeps always act surprised when they're finally called on it; on the other, administrators aren't above inventing a "pattern" to retroactively justify various ill-thought decisions.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:42 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, people with a long history of being confrontational creeps always act surprised when they're finally called on it; on the other, administrators aren't above inventing a "pattern" to retroactively justify various ill-thought decisions.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:42 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
It's hardly as if art schools are bastions of serious academic discussion of *anything.* A class in "character development," for real? I am not surprised Ms. Freaky Deaky New Age was in his class, or that she turned out to be a ranting moron who pissed him off. Especially in Portland.
It's OK to hate atheists in America. We see proof every day. We have freedom of religion, but we aren't free *from* religion.
I think a few hundred emails to the school's dean of students are in order.
After a while, the idiocy of believers, especially New Age fundamentalists (and they are), would make anyone aggressive and obnoxious. They don't believe reason or evidence matter. But the morons who run the school are the real idiots here.
And hey kids, unless you go to the top 5 or so MFA programs, your art school is just an excuse to steal student loan money from taxpayers -- so you can learn about leprachauns, and not be challenged, apparently.
posted by spitbull at 5:23 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
It's OK to hate atheists in America. We see proof every day. We have freedom of religion, but we aren't free *from* religion.
I think a few hundred emails to the school's dean of students are in order.
After a while, the idiocy of believers, especially New Age fundamentalists (and they are), would make anyone aggressive and obnoxious. They don't believe reason or evidence matter. But the morons who run the school are the real idiots here.
And hey kids, unless you go to the top 5 or so MFA programs, your art school is just an excuse to steal student loan money from taxpayers -- so you can learn about leprachauns, and not be challenged, apparently.
posted by spitbull at 5:23 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
Maybe the school just got tired of him making people feel uncomfortable.
Because school is about making people comfortable, not maybe offering them an education?
Like the teacher's comment reported in his blog entry - "This was supposed to be a self esteem building excercise, something to make everyone feel equal and talented" - is that an acceptable standard for education?
Look I like anyone else here don't know the full details, but as far as I know the usual concept of 'aggressive threatening behaviour' that's worthy of expelling from school - and here it's a college! - is either physical violence towards other students, or threats of violence towards other students, or the like. Even if it's just words, at the very least, insults, overtly threatening language, and so on. I'd never dreamed being argumentative to the point of annoyance would be enough. Actually, in theory shouldn't higher education promote being argumentative?
Nevermind the leprechauns vs atheist angle, I'm trying to picture even the most annoying, unlikeable personality, and I just can't see how that alone is grounds for getting kicked out of school. A lot of teachers wouldn't make it if that was the standard.
And if the girl who reported him really had that kind of breakdown, crying like he'd beaten her up or something, well isn't this just a case of the school refusing to treat the students as adults and just caving in to whoever whines louder?
posted by pleeker at 5:24 AM on November 28, 2006
Because school is about making people comfortable, not maybe offering them an education?
Like the teacher's comment reported in his blog entry - "This was supposed to be a self esteem building excercise, something to make everyone feel equal and talented" - is that an acceptable standard for education?
Look I like anyone else here don't know the full details, but as far as I know the usual concept of 'aggressive threatening behaviour' that's worthy of expelling from school - and here it's a college! - is either physical violence towards other students, or threats of violence towards other students, or the like. Even if it's just words, at the very least, insults, overtly threatening language, and so on. I'd never dreamed being argumentative to the point of annoyance would be enough. Actually, in theory shouldn't higher education promote being argumentative?
Nevermind the leprechauns vs atheist angle, I'm trying to picture even the most annoying, unlikeable personality, and I just can't see how that alone is grounds for getting kicked out of school. A lot of teachers wouldn't make it if that was the standard.
And if the girl who reported him really had that kind of breakdown, crying like he'd beaten her up or something, well isn't this just a case of the school refusing to treat the students as adults and just caving in to whoever whines louder?
posted by pleeker at 5:24 AM on November 28, 2006
"This was supposed to be a self esteem building excercise, something to make everyone feel equal and talented" - is that an acceptable standard for education?
Law Student: Sir, in this case, Marbury argued that the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction over petitions for writs of mandamus.
Prof. Kingsfield: And how does this make you feeeeeeeel about yourself, Mistuh Hart?
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:57 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
Law Student: Sir, in this case, Marbury argued that the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction over petitions for writs of mandamus.
Prof. Kingsfield: And how does this make you feeeeeeeel about yourself, Mistuh Hart?
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:57 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
people with a long history of being confrontational creeps always act surprised when they're finally called on it
Maybe he's just misunderstood.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:18 AM on November 28, 2006
Maybe he's just misunderstood.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:18 AM on November 28, 2006
Do all people in Portalnd look like Dandy Warhol castoffs?
posted by Dagobert at 6:31 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by Dagobert at 6:31 AM on November 28, 2006
I never believed in neochauns, but look at what happened to America! One may wish to reconsider the case for the leprechauns as well.
But clearly this guy got kicked out of artschool for not being a flake.
posted by Goofyy at 6:32 AM on November 28, 2006
But clearly this guy got kicked out of artschool for not being a flake.
posted by Goofyy at 6:32 AM on November 28, 2006
Everyone knows leprechauns are extinct!
posted by sonofsamiam at 6:44 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by sonofsamiam at 6:44 AM on November 28, 2006
there are people who actually believe in leprechauns?
Practicioners of biodynamic farming sprinkle shiny crystals around their crops to entertain the sprites and elfs.
In a study comparing to conventional farms, "Biodynamic farms proved in most enterprises to have soils of higher biological and physical quality: significantly greater in organic matter, content and microbial activity, more earthworms, better soil structure, lower bulk density, easier penetrability, and thicker topsoil."
The spiritual ministrations of Biodynamic farming probably contribute most to the social cohesiveness and happiness of the workers, but the positive results are real and significant.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:48 AM on November 28, 2006
Practicioners of biodynamic farming sprinkle shiny crystals around their crops to entertain the sprites and elfs.
In a study comparing to conventional farms, "Biodynamic farms proved in most enterprises to have soils of higher biological and physical quality: significantly greater in organic matter, content and microbial activity, more earthworms, better soil structure, lower bulk density, easier penetrability, and thicker topsoil."
The spiritual ministrations of Biodynamic farming probably contribute most to the social cohesiveness and happiness of the workers, but the positive results are real and significant.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:48 AM on November 28, 2006
But clearly this guy got kicked out of artschool for not being a flake.
His account doesn't make sense, and < judge judy> if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true. < /judge judy>
I find it far easier to believe that he has a track record of being an aggressive asshole and got kicked out for that reason than his contention that he got kicked out because he politely objected to another student's belief in leprechauns. I mean, come on.
posted by norm at 6:54 AM on November 28, 2006
His account doesn't make sense, and < judge judy> if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true. < /judge judy>
I find it far easier to believe that he has a track record of being an aggressive asshole and got kicked out for that reason than his contention that he got kicked out because he politely objected to another student's belief in leprechauns. I mean, come on.
posted by norm at 6:54 AM on November 28, 2006
Practicioners of biodynamic farming sprinkle shiny crystals around their crops to entertain the sprites and elfs.
"A central aspect of biodynamics is that the farm as a whole is seen as an organism, and therefore should be a closedselfelf-nourishing system, which the preparations nourish."
But clearly this guy got kicked out of artschool for not being a flake.
He got kicked out for not humoring flakes. Humoring other people is a valuable social skill. You can scoff privately, behind whole/new/underage leprechaun girl's back, but you can't mock her to her face, in front of her colleagues, at her place of study. Not much, anyway.
posted by pracowity at 7:31 AM on November 28, 2006
"A central aspect of biodynamics is that the farm as a whole is seen as an organism, and therefore should be a closed
But clearly this guy got kicked out of artschool for not being a flake.
He got kicked out for not humoring flakes. Humoring other people is a valuable social skill. You can scoff privately, behind whole/new/underage leprechaun girl's back, but you can't mock her to her face, in front of her colleagues, at her place of study. Not much, anyway.
posted by pracowity at 7:31 AM on November 28, 2006
What's really bizarre about this is they apparently thought he was being rude and belligerent to the associate dean
Plus the idea of stifling discourse like that at any school is just bizarre.
posted by delmoi at 7:43 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
"They didn't respond well," Averill told the Mercury. "Their mantra was 'no discussing religion in school,' which is fine except that I did not initiate the conversation, she had." Averill was suspended for four days, until a judicial hearing with the dean of student affairs.What the hell? What exactly is wrong with being 'rude and belligerent' at some crazy-ass kangaroo court? That’s bullshit The dean didn’t even want to talk to the witness The real problem here is the behavior of the dean. I suggest the student sue.
Immediately after the meeting with the deans, Averill found a classmate who had witnessed the initial conversation, and dragged him to the dean's office. "I thought I could clear this up, this is just a misunderstanding." (The witness did not respond to an inquiry from the Mercury.)
But the associate dean, Averill says, "told me she didn't want to hear from me again that day. So she reported it to the dean as rude and belligerent behavior."
Plus the idea of stifling discourse like that at any school is just bizarre.
posted by delmoi at 7:43 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
His account doesn't make sense, and < judge judy> if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true. < /judge judy>
That's an idiotic metric.
posted by delmoi at 7:44 AM on November 28, 2006
That's an idiotic metric.
posted by delmoi at 7:44 AM on November 28, 2006
The science fair entry on his blog is deeply disturbing.
It also stinks of bullshit. Too perfect, to utterly suited to frame his view of the world and make him the outcast protagonist.
The Merc is great at printing funny, snarky stuff. Their journalism, on the other hand...
posted by cortex at 7:50 AM on November 28, 2006
It also stinks of bullshit. Too perfect, to utterly suited to frame his view of the world and make him the outcast protagonist.
The Merc is great at printing funny, snarky stuff. Their journalism, on the other hand...
posted by cortex at 7:50 AM on November 28, 2006
And no, we don't all look like that. Some of us lean toward unkempt hippie.
posted by cortex at 7:51 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by cortex at 7:51 AM on November 28, 2006
you can't mock her to her face, in front of her colleagues, at her place of study. Not much, anyway.
I disagree, sort of. If he physically assaults people, throw him out. If he threatens to physically assault people, throw him out. If he is so annoying and confrontational as to completely disrupt classes, throw him out. But if he's just a dick in general? Barring actual codes of conduct in the school that say "thou shalt not be a dick," he shouldn't be thrown out. It doesn't matter if he went up to every single person and said, "Your beliefs are bullshit and you are dumb." As long as he didn't do it in the middle of class and didn't punch them in the face at the same time, then whatever.
posted by papakwanz at 7:59 AM on November 28, 2006
I disagree, sort of. If he physically assaults people, throw him out. If he threatens to physically assault people, throw him out. If he is so annoying and confrontational as to completely disrupt classes, throw him out. But if he's just a dick in general? Barring actual codes of conduct in the school that say "thou shalt not be a dick," he shouldn't be thrown out. It doesn't matter if he went up to every single person and said, "Your beliefs are bullshit and you are dumb." As long as he didn't do it in the middle of class and didn't punch them in the face at the same time, then whatever.
posted by papakwanz at 7:59 AM on November 28, 2006
this kid seems to be trying very hard to make a case for himself, but it seems clear to me that his stories just don't add up.
i suspect he really is somewhat of an asshole, and probably likes to lord his oh so lofty 'video game art skillz' over those other pretentious 'traditional art' students with their flaky new age hairdos and silly leprechaun believing ways.
leprechauns ain't science? it might not be true, but i wouldn't want to be the one who broke the news to that hottie either.
posted by sophist at 8:02 AM on November 28, 2006
i suspect he really is somewhat of an asshole, and probably likes to lord his oh so lofty 'video game art skillz' over those other pretentious 'traditional art' students with their flaky new age hairdos and silly leprechaun believing ways.
leprechauns ain't science? it might not be true, but i wouldn't want to be the one who broke the news to that hottie either.
posted by sophist at 8:02 AM on November 28, 2006
We have an academic community in which people are free to explore ideas.
Explore, but not debate apparently.
posted by washburn at 8:22 AM on November 28, 2006
Explore, but not debate apparently.
posted by washburn at 8:22 AM on November 28, 2006
i wouldn't want to be the one who broke the news to that hottie either
You have pics? My own views on religion are potentially ... flexible.
As a private institution, not a federal or state run institution, can't they throw out whoever for violation of their policies and bylaws?
(These stupid TV-advertising Art Institutes are not to be confused with the Art Institute of Chicago, a world-class museum, which has its own school.) Even if private, assuming they take any federal money (including student loans), they are bound by federal anti-discrimination laws.
posted by dhartung at 8:22 AM on November 28, 2006
You have pics? My own views on religion are potentially ... flexible.
As a private institution, not a federal or state run institution, can't they throw out whoever for violation of their policies and bylaws?
(These stupid TV-advertising Art Institutes are not to be confused with the Art Institute of Chicago, a world-class museum, which has its own school.) Even if private, assuming they take any federal money (including student loans), they are bound by federal anti-discrimination laws.
posted by dhartung at 8:22 AM on November 28, 2006
Portland Mercury: "But the associate dean, Averill says, "told me she didn't want to hear from me again that day."
delmoi : "That’s bullshit The dean didn’t even want to talk to the witness"
I think the operative expression is "that day". I don't think the guy should be kicked out of school for being a jerk, either, but I don't think the situation leading up to the unfair dismissal was nearly as one-sided as he makes it out to be.
I suppose, before coming to MeFi, I might have just taken the situation as the Portland Mercury reported it, but now, being tainted by MetaTalk, I just imagine a MeFite in the same position, and a possible scenario comes to mind:
It's 6 pm. You've just had a two hour argument with a jerk who may be totally correct about Flying Spaghetti Monsters, but can't comport himself civilly when discussing it. You're getting your stuff gathered to go home, and he busts in again with someone in tow.
You: "Look, we'll talk about it tomorrow, OK?"
MeFite Dawkins: "Fuck that, we're going to discuss this NOW".
You: "Look, there's a judicial hearing in 4 days. You can bring all the witnesses you want, that's the entire point of the judicial hearing. Heck, if you want, we can discuss it tomorrow morning, in advance of the judicial hearing. But nothing needs to be resolved in the next 10 minutes, so let's just talk about it tomorrow."
MeFite Dawkins: "No! You're just saying that because you're offended that by decrying the existence of leprechauns, I've thoroughly disproven your entire world-view about skygods! I'm not going to let you use your Rovian tactics to suppress my views."
You: "Look, fine, we can talk about all that tomorrow. Now, please, get out of my office, and let me go home."
MeFite Dawkins: "You want to go home because you know I'm right. For the record, I bet my right hand against her lies. Under any amount of torture, she will break first, because she is lying. If I break first, I will surrender my right hand."
At which point you go talk to your boss, the dean, and tell him about this rude, belligerent guy.
I still don't believe even that case would remotely justify expulsion. I just don't believe it was such a clean "I was correct and polite the whole way, but they were unreasonable and draconian throughout" situation.
posted by Bugbread at 8:39 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
delmoi : "That’s bullshit The dean didn’t even want to talk to the witness"
I think the operative expression is "that day". I don't think the guy should be kicked out of school for being a jerk, either, but I don't think the situation leading up to the unfair dismissal was nearly as one-sided as he makes it out to be.
I suppose, before coming to MeFi, I might have just taken the situation as the Portland Mercury reported it, but now, being tainted by MetaTalk, I just imagine a MeFite in the same position, and a possible scenario comes to mind:
It's 6 pm. You've just had a two hour argument with a jerk who may be totally correct about Flying Spaghetti Monsters, but can't comport himself civilly when discussing it. You're getting your stuff gathered to go home, and he busts in again with someone in tow.
You: "Look, we'll talk about it tomorrow, OK?"
MeFite Dawkins: "Fuck that, we're going to discuss this NOW".
You: "Look, there's a judicial hearing in 4 days. You can bring all the witnesses you want, that's the entire point of the judicial hearing. Heck, if you want, we can discuss it tomorrow morning, in advance of the judicial hearing. But nothing needs to be resolved in the next 10 minutes, so let's just talk about it tomorrow."
MeFite Dawkins: "No! You're just saying that because you're offended that by decrying the existence of leprechauns, I've thoroughly disproven your entire world-view about skygods! I'm not going to let you use your Rovian tactics to suppress my views."
You: "Look, fine, we can talk about all that tomorrow. Now, please, get out of my office, and let me go home."
MeFite Dawkins: "You want to go home because you know I'm right. For the record, I bet my right hand against her lies. Under any amount of torture, she will break first, because she is lying. If I break first, I will surrender my right hand."
At which point you go talk to your boss, the dean, and tell him about this rude, belligerent guy.
I still don't believe even that case would remotely justify expulsion. I just don't believe it was such a clean "I was correct and polite the whole way, but they were unreasonable and draconian throughout" situation.
posted by Bugbread at 8:39 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
The student who complained on November 8 wished to remain anonymous, but her account backs up Engeldinger's letter. Her complaint was not the only reason he was sent into the Dean's office. "The teacher even told me that my complaint was the 'last straw' as SEVERAL other complaints were stated before mine."That's what's really ridiculous about this; I mean the girl wasn't even that offended. She didn't care, and wouldn't have complained if she had known what would happen. It seems like the administration just wanted to use this as an excuse to get rid of him.
posted by delmoi at 8:50 AM on November 28, 2006
Now these students can all get back to drawing that cute little cap-wearing turtle.
posted by washburn at 9:05 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by washburn at 9:05 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
delmoi : "I mean the girl wasn't even that offended. She didn't care, and wouldn't have complained if she had known what would happen. It seems like the administration just wanted to use this as an excuse to get rid of him."
They didn't use this as an excuse, though, did they?
posted by Bugbread at 9:13 AM on November 28, 2006
They didn't use this as an excuse, though, did they?
At the judicial hearing, on November 17, Dean of Student Affairs Ron Engeldinger was more focused on the "rude and belligerent behavior" report from the associate dean, Averill says, than on the initial conversation about religion.The only people I see pinning the cause for this on the disagreement about leprechauns are the Portland Mercury. The school seems pretty adamant that this isn't about the leprechaun issue.
According to an emailed letter from Engeldinger, Averill had violated the student conduct policy. The decision to dismiss Averill was "not the result of a single action on your part, but a series of actions. I believe that, in several instances, your actions have been aggressive, demeaning, and threatening and that this demonstrates a pattern of inappropriate and unacceptable behavior," Engeldinger wrote.
posted by Bugbread at 9:13 AM on November 28, 2006
Do all people in Portland look like Dandy Warhol castoffs?
No, I think it's the other way around. Ahem.
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:19 AM on November 28, 2006
No, I think it's the other way around. Ahem.
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:19 AM on November 28, 2006
Do all people in Portland look like Dandy Warhol castoffs?
No, I think it's the other way around. Ahem.
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:20 AM on November 28, 2006
No, I think it's the other way around. Ahem.
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:20 AM on November 28, 2006
"I expressed that I felt discriminated against as an atheist, and he informed me that mine was not a protected class of people," Averill says.
Not protected and least trusted.
Sorry, but the original link I had for this is dead, so that's a forum post right there.
posted by brundlefly at 9:23 AM on November 28, 2006
Not protected and least trusted.
Sorry, but the original link I had for this is dead, so that's a forum post right there.
posted by brundlefly at 9:23 AM on November 28, 2006
This goes to prove my point that leprechauns are not only real, they are out to kill you. Kill you for messing with their poit of gold and shit.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:30 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:30 AM on November 28, 2006
Read his blog. He sounds like a dick, and like he's been a dick all his life.
It's not about the leprechauns, it's because he's a dick to everyone around him.
His blog is pretty clear on the matter, IMHO.
posted by MythMaker at 9:58 AM on November 28, 2006
It's not about the leprechauns, it's because he's a dick to everyone around him.
His blog is pretty clear on the matter, IMHO.
posted by MythMaker at 9:58 AM on November 28, 2006
Read his blog. He sounds like a dick, and like he's been a dick all his life.
Another interpretation is that he feels he has an important message that he wants to communicate.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:08 AM on November 28, 2006
Another interpretation is that he feels he has an important message that he wants to communicate.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:08 AM on November 28, 2006
And hey kids, unless you go to the top 5 or so MFA programs, your art school is just an excuse to steal student loan money from taxpayers
You can steal student loan money? Boy do I feel stupid.
posted by undule at 10:17 AM on November 28, 2006
You can steal student loan money? Boy do I feel stupid.
posted by undule at 10:17 AM on November 28, 2006
Smart kid, but maybe kinda self-centered & immature. I got the strong feeling looking at his blog that most of it was either made up or heavily embellished. Sucks to be kicked out of school, but when you look for negative attention as hard as this kid did you're going to find it.
posted by facetious at 10:25 AM on November 28, 2006
posted by facetious at 10:25 AM on November 28, 2006
I still don't believe even that case would remotely justify expulsion.
Well, that's the important part, isn't it?
posted by pleeker at 10:36 AM on November 28, 2006
Well, that's the important part, isn't it?
posted by pleeker at 10:36 AM on November 28, 2006
If being a self-centred dick was enough to get you kicked out of school, there'd be no higher education in this country.
And I don't see how bugbread "nails" it by concocting a story that while plausible may also be completely false considering we don't know what happened in the associate dean's office. Yes, it's possible that the student was rude and belligerent, but it's also possible that the associate dean is a fascist cock who overreacts at the slightest hint of resistance to his/her authoritai. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the school is concocting a story to justify their initial overreaction at expelling the guy.
posted by papakwanz at 10:43 AM on November 28, 2006
And I don't see how bugbread "nails" it by concocting a story that while plausible may also be completely false considering we don't know what happened in the associate dean's office. Yes, it's possible that the student was rude and belligerent, but it's also possible that the associate dean is a fascist cock who overreacts at the slightest hint of resistance to his/her authoritai. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the school is concocting a story to justify their initial overreaction at expelling the guy.
posted by papakwanz at 10:43 AM on November 28, 2006
Yes, it's possible that the student was rude and belligerent, but it's also possible that the associate dean is a fascist cock who overreacts at the slightest hint of resistance to his/her authoritai.
And it's even more likely—almost certain, in fact—that the truth lies somewhere between, which is notably not the image being presented by the self-righteous aggrieved party.
Argument by anecdote is no proof, granted, but I have never, ever, ever heard a personal "I did nothing wrong, it was entirely that other party's fault, I am immaculate" story in this sort of situation that matched the reality of the situation.
posted by cortex at 10:54 AM on November 28, 2006
And it's even more likely—almost certain, in fact—that the truth lies somewhere between, which is notably not the image being presented by the self-righteous aggrieved party.
Argument by anecdote is no proof, granted, but I have never, ever, ever heard a personal "I did nothing wrong, it was entirely that other party's fault, I am immaculate" story in this sort of situation that matched the reality of the situation.
posted by cortex at 10:54 AM on November 28, 2006
pleeker : "Well, that's the important part, isn't it?"
Important to whom? To us? Well, since half this discussion is about whether a person should be thrown out for being a jerk, and the other half is about whether a person should be thrown out for challenging someone's religious beliefs, that's only the important part to half of this discussion.
papakwanz : "And I don't see how bugbread 'nails' it by concocting a story that while plausible may also be completely false considering we don't know what happened in the associate dean's office."
Yeah. My conjecture above was not meant to "nail" anything, it's pure conjecture. I just meant that it's one possible alternative that I don't think is too farfetched. "Possible alternative", not "this is probably what really happened".
posted by Bugbread at 10:56 AM on November 28, 2006
Important to whom? To us? Well, since half this discussion is about whether a person should be thrown out for being a jerk, and the other half is about whether a person should be thrown out for challenging someone's religious beliefs, that's only the important part to half of this discussion.
papakwanz : "And I don't see how bugbread 'nails' it by concocting a story that while plausible may also be completely false considering we don't know what happened in the associate dean's office."
Yeah. My conjecture above was not meant to "nail" anything, it's pure conjecture. I just meant that it's one possible alternative that I don't think is too farfetched. "Possible alternative", not "this is probably what really happened".
posted by Bugbread at 10:56 AM on November 28, 2006
Important to whom? To us?
Huh? I just meant, the one undisputed thing is this student was not just rebuked, disciplined in some way, suspended, etc. but expelled from his college, which is usually a rather extreme measure, which usually requires rather extreme forms of behaviour.
Now, whatever possible scenario of events we can come up with, it's as valid as belief in leprechauns, since we weren't there, and for some reason the school hasn't specified what exactly were the previous straws before this final straw, and hasn't cared to define how exactly aggressive and threatening the student's behaviour has been. We're just asked to believe that it was really, really bad.
So, we sure can also disbelieve his obviously interested account of being polite all we like, but that extreme measure still seems unjustified, just like you said yourself...
... just after you engaged in your lovely little caricature with the poor saintly school authorities burdened by a hard day's work and the dickhead retarded student looking for a fight with the dean.
If we are inclined to be skeptical that the kid was polite throughout, then I don't see why be more inclined to conjecture that there's no way the dean or assistant dean were being dickheads in their own right, or that the girl was overreacting. I for one can't picture reporting another student for an argument that didn't involve kicking and punching or repeated threats to that effect. Whatever the argument was about.
Still, leprechauns, dude... What's the point of going to school at all?
posted by pleeker at 11:34 AM on November 28, 2006
Huh? I just meant, the one undisputed thing is this student was not just rebuked, disciplined in some way, suspended, etc. but expelled from his college, which is usually a rather extreme measure, which usually requires rather extreme forms of behaviour.
Now, whatever possible scenario of events we can come up with, it's as valid as belief in leprechauns, since we weren't there, and for some reason the school hasn't specified what exactly were the previous straws before this final straw, and hasn't cared to define how exactly aggressive and threatening the student's behaviour has been. We're just asked to believe that it was really, really bad.
So, we sure can also disbelieve his obviously interested account of being polite all we like, but that extreme measure still seems unjustified, just like you said yourself...
... just after you engaged in your lovely little caricature with the poor saintly school authorities burdened by a hard day's work and the dickhead retarded student looking for a fight with the dean.
If we are inclined to be skeptical that the kid was polite throughout, then I don't see why be more inclined to conjecture that there's no way the dean or assistant dean were being dickheads in their own right, or that the girl was overreacting. I for one can't picture reporting another student for an argument that didn't involve kicking and punching or repeated threats to that effect. Whatever the argument was about.
Still, leprechauns, dude... What's the point of going to school at all?
posted by pleeker at 11:34 AM on November 28, 2006
I thought belief in leprechauns is entirely congruent with some variants of string theory.
Also, unless movies and TV have lied to me, it's a crusty, bitter old Dean.
posted by sour cream at 11:42 AM on November 28, 2006
Also, unless movies and TV have lied to me, it's a crusty, bitter old Dean.
posted by sour cream at 11:42 AM on November 28, 2006
While I am pleased (in the abstract) that it appears that there are occasionally consequences for being an asshole, I have to say that any educational institution (and I use that loosely) which takes my money for tuition had better have a lawyer-proof record of my misanthropic behavior before they expell me, or they had better issue me a full refund.
...not that anyone should conjure a mental image of Gollum standing at the lip of the crater, fondling his Portland Art Institute Degree and crooning, "My precious..."
posted by FYKshun at 11:51 AM on November 28, 2006
...not that anyone should conjure a mental image of Gollum standing at the lip of the crater, fondling his Portland Art Institute Degree and crooning, "My precious..."
posted by FYKshun at 11:51 AM on November 28, 2006
Well, whenever someone is expelled, fired, or detained indefinitely by the authorities, it's always for "a series of events" that are confidential and that you're expected to believe was pretty bad on the word of the authorities alone.
If they can't demonstrate pretty convincingly that this person did any single thing worthy of expulsion, then he ought to be back in that class, period. At least if this school wants to have has any legitimate pretensions to the academic "freedom to explore" that they claim to espouse.
The fact that some administrator told this student that he not a member of a "protected class" is a tip-off that something bad was going on here, which wouldn't have happened if this kid was defending some other kind of belief.
It seems like anyone interested in a serious education should think twice about signing up at the Art Institute of Portland.
posted by washburn at 11:53 AM on November 28, 2006
If they can't demonstrate pretty convincingly that this person did any single thing worthy of expulsion, then he ought to be back in that class, period. At least if this school wants to have has any legitimate pretensions to the academic "freedom to explore" that they claim to espouse.
The fact that some administrator told this student that he not a member of a "protected class" is a tip-off that something bad was going on here, which wouldn't have happened if this kid was defending some other kind of belief.
It seems like anyone interested in a serious education should think twice about signing up at the Art Institute of Portland.
posted by washburn at 11:53 AM on November 28, 2006
Noah's Ark had leprechauns
posted by Rancid Badger at 12:03 PM on November 28, 2006
posted by Rancid Badger at 12:03 PM on November 28, 2006
pleeker : "If we are inclined to be skeptical that the kid was polite throughout, then I don't see why be more inclined to conjecture that there's no way the dean or assistant dean were being dickheads in their own right, or that the girl was overreacting."
I'm not intending to be more inclined. The situation, as presented, is "A good, B bad, result C occurs". I'm saying "A bad, B good, result C occurs is also plausible". "Also plausible" doesn't mean "more plausible". I may have expressed myself poorly earlier (I'm on a night shift, so it happens). Sorry.
washburn : "The fact that some administrator told this student that he not a member of a 'protected class' is a tip-off that something bad was going on here, which wouldn't have happened if this kid was defending some other kind of belief."
It could also indicate that the kid played the protected class card first, and the administrator was responding.
Mr. Plausible-but-in-no-way-more-or-less-probable-than-other-plausible-situations: "You wouldn't kick a Jew out for being Jewish, because they are a legally protected class. So you can't kick me out for being an atheist"
Assistant Dean Not-more-probable-just-another-plausible-case: "I'm not kicking you out for being an atheist, which, by the way, isn't a legally protected class anyway, I'm kicking you out for your rude and disruptive behaviour."
So, basically, it all comes down to: We're talking about a story with almost no concrete information, but plenty of hearsay. Taking one side or the other, based on how little we know, is just a reflection of our own personal prejudices, not really a reflection of the case at hand. I'm prejudiced against both sides, so I end up vaguely neutral.
posted by Bugbread at 12:31 PM on November 28, 2006
I'm not intending to be more inclined. The situation, as presented, is "A good, B bad, result C occurs". I'm saying "A bad, B good, result C occurs is also plausible". "Also plausible" doesn't mean "more plausible". I may have expressed myself poorly earlier (I'm on a night shift, so it happens). Sorry.
washburn : "The fact that some administrator told this student that he not a member of a 'protected class' is a tip-off that something bad was going on here, which wouldn't have happened if this kid was defending some other kind of belief."
It could also indicate that the kid played the protected class card first, and the administrator was responding.
Mr. Plausible-but-in-no-way-more-or-less-probable-than-other-plausible-situations: "You wouldn't kick a Jew out for being Jewish, because they are a legally protected class. So you can't kick me out for being an atheist"
Assistant Dean Not-more-probable-just-another-plausible-case: "I'm not kicking you out for being an atheist, which, by the way, isn't a legally protected class anyway, I'm kicking you out for your rude and disruptive behaviour."
So, basically, it all comes down to: We're talking about a story with almost no concrete information, but plenty of hearsay. Taking one side or the other, based on how little we know, is just a reflection of our own personal prejudices, not really a reflection of the case at hand. I'm prejudiced against both sides, so I end up vaguely neutral.
posted by Bugbread at 12:31 PM on November 28, 2006
i wouldn't want to be the one who broke the news to that hottie either
"Well, I mean to say, when a girl suddenly asks you out of a blue sky if you don't sometimes feel that the stars are God's daisy-chain, you begin to think a bit."
Yes, you do. Maybe this girl was flirting with Averill and he was just too nerdy to tell.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:52 PM on November 28, 2006
"Well, I mean to say, when a girl suddenly asks you out of a blue sky if you don't sometimes feel that the stars are God's daisy-chain, you begin to think a bit."
Yes, you do. Maybe this girl was flirting with Averill and he was just too nerdy to tell.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:52 PM on November 28, 2006
Yeah, perhaps he was after her lucky charms.
“Another interpretation is that he feels he has an important message that he wants to communicate.”
You know who else felt he had an important message that he wanted to communicate?
Bugbread.
Oh, no, wait, he’s vaguely neutral. Um, er, uh... Francisco de Salva!
posted by Smedleyman at 1:28 PM on November 28, 2006
“Another interpretation is that he feels he has an important message that he wants to communicate.”
You know who else felt he had an important message that he wanted to communicate?
Bugbread.
Oh, no, wait, he’s vaguely neutral. Um, er, uh... Francisco de Salva!
posted by Smedleyman at 1:28 PM on November 28, 2006
It's very important that I communicate my wavering neutrality!
posted by Bugbread at 1:53 PM on November 28, 2006
posted by Bugbread at 1:53 PM on November 28, 2006
facetious writes "Smart kid, but maybe kinda self-centered & immature. "
At an art school? Surely you jest..
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:35 PM on November 28, 2006
At an art school? Surely you jest..
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:35 PM on November 28, 2006
this guy's a damned good writer. i'd say the whole thing's performance art.
posted by RedEmma at 3:52 PM on November 28, 2006
posted by RedEmma at 3:52 PM on November 28, 2006
And I don't see how bugbread "nails" it by concocting a story that while plausible may also be completely false considering we don't know what happened in the associate dean's office.
When I said bugbreag nails it, I just meant that his scenario struck me as dead on. Not that he was all-seeing. It's just that reading the blog, and having known folks who sound like this kid, I buy that he was a total dick. I mean, it's fucking art school, you think they've never met an athiest before?
posted by Bookhouse at 4:29 PM on November 28, 2006
When I said bugbreag nails it, I just meant that his scenario struck me as dead on. Not that he was all-seeing. It's just that reading the blog, and having known folks who sound like this kid, I buy that he was a total dick. I mean, it's fucking art school, you think they've never met an athiest before?
posted by Bookhouse at 4:29 PM on November 28, 2006
It's not about the leprechauns, it's because he's a dick to everyone around him.
Fair enough. So how is that grounds for expulsion, exactly?
posted by Target Practice at 4:46 PM on November 28, 2006
Fair enough. So how is that grounds for expulsion, exactly?
posted by Target Practice at 4:46 PM on November 28, 2006
I have a slightly unrelated question for those who know string theory: how the fuck could anyone think that it proves the existence of leprechauns?
posted by papakwanz at 5:15 PM on November 28, 2006
posted by papakwanz at 5:15 PM on November 28, 2006
That science fair blog post is almost certainly a total lie. In fact, most of his personal story blog posts read like lies. I can't think of a witty or polite way to say that he sounds like he needs a good tire iron to the face, so I won't say that.
posted by Kwine at 5:29 PM on November 28, 2006
posted by Kwine at 5:29 PM on November 28, 2006
Agreed, the science fair post was what really put me over the edge. He's just a big phony, and a self important ass to boot. When you make a fool of yourself, don't do it on the internets. It's forever there.
posted by caddis at 5:52 PM on November 28, 2006
posted by caddis at 5:52 PM on November 28, 2006
papakwanz writes "If being a self-centred dick was enough to get you kicked out of school, there'd be no higher education in this country."
Yeah, but if you stand out enough to be called out as one at a college, that's got to be grounds for something.
posted by concrete at 8:29 PM on November 28, 2006
Yeah, but if you stand out enough to be called out as one at a college, that's got to be grounds for something.
posted by concrete at 8:29 PM on November 28, 2006
Yeah, but if you stand out enough to be called out as one at a college, that's got to be grounds for something.
Tenure?
posted by papakwanz at 9:33 PM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
Tenure?
posted by papakwanz at 9:33 PM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
Wait... his blog might be fiction...
Leprechauns also might be fiction...
Ergo, he is a leprechaun intent on convincing us he is fiction so we don't go looking for his pot of gold.
Which you shouldn't go looking for anyways because he'll kill you and shit. I saw the movie. I know.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:39 PM on November 28, 2006
Leprechauns also might be fiction...
Ergo, he is a leprechaun intent on convincing us he is fiction so we don't go looking for his pot of gold.
Which you shouldn't go looking for anyways because he'll kill you and shit. I saw the movie. I know.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:39 PM on November 28, 2006
Cute username, r-at.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:13 PM on November 28, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 11:13 PM on November 28, 2006
If this guy can't handle classmates with batshit insane belief systems, he picked the wrong major.
Seriously though, after hearing about what that college is like, I can't help but think kicking him out was the nicest thing they could have done for him. Maybe he'll go to a real education institution now.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:25 PM on November 28, 2006
Seriously though, after hearing about what that college is like, I can't help but think kicking him out was the nicest thing they could have done for him. Maybe he'll go to a real education institution now.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:25 PM on November 28, 2006
You think he likes the song "Dreamweaver"?
(Tell my wife I said 'Hello')
posted by Smedleyman at 10:35 AM on November 29, 2006
(Tell my wife I said 'Hello')
posted by Smedleyman at 10:35 AM on November 29, 2006
I have a slightly unrelated question for those who know string theory: how the fuck could anyone think that it proves the existence of leprechauns?
green strings, laddiebuck, green strings
posted by pyramid termite at 7:24 PM on November 29, 2006
green strings, laddiebuck, green strings
posted by pyramid termite at 7:24 PM on November 29, 2006
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