Nazis to March in Over-the-Rhine
April 10, 2007 6:43 AM Subscribe
In April of 2001, a Cincinnati police officer shot an unarmed African-American teenager in the Over-the-Rhine neighborhood of Cincinnati, sparking a summer of riots and violence. Now, a neo-Nazi group plans to march through Over-the-Rhine on April 20, with or without a permit, to celebrate the birthday of Adolph Hitler. The NAACP has demanded that police protection not be provided at taxpayer expense. In 2005, a march by the same group through a Toledo neighborhood did not end well.
I hate Cincinatti Nazis.
posted by psmealey at 6:57 AM on April 10, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by psmealey at 6:57 AM on April 10, 2007 [2 favorites]
Man, you gotta get up pretty early in the morning to be that kind of dumb.
posted by billysumday at 7:06 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by billysumday at 7:06 AM on April 10, 2007
Don't think so -- Ms. Schott, she daid.
Maybe her ghost can flit around going boooo! or something.
posted by jonmc at 7:13 AM on April 10, 2007
Maybe her ghost can flit around going boooo! or something.
posted by jonmc at 7:13 AM on April 10, 2007
As Anti-Fascist Action used to say, there's no such thing as a fascist march, only a police march.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:15 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:15 AM on April 10, 2007
I used to joke about my home state of South Carolina, "It's not the heat; it's the stupidity," but since I've relocated to Ohio, I've witnessed enough Nawthun dumbitude to understand that the South has no particular claim to idiotic @$$holery -- I'll put my KKK-march memories (right down Main Street in Columbia to hold a rally at the Confederate Memorial on the State House grounds) up against these guys any day.
(On reflection, I'll lump the Confederate Memorial Day folks in with 'em, since they're largely a bunch of apologists anyhow. Too bad homespun butternut doesn't look as sharp as NSDAP tailored uniforms, but you can't have everything.)
posted by pax digita at 7:15 AM on April 10, 2007
(On reflection, I'll lump the Confederate Memorial Day folks in with 'em, since they're largely a bunch of apologists anyhow. Too bad homespun butternut doesn't look as sharp as NSDAP tailored uniforms, but you can't have everything.)
posted by pax digita at 7:15 AM on April 10, 2007
From the last link:
The violence started around noon as police were getting ready to escort about 15 Nazis on a march
Wait, the Toledo police had actually planned to *escort* the Nazis down the streets of a black neighborhood, effectively giving them official support for a deliberately provocative and hateful expression of speech? There's nothing in the First Amendment that requires that kind of support, and it seems particularly strange given this from the 2nd-to-last link:
Authorities said there was little they could do to stop the group, because they did not apply for a parade permit and instead planned to walk along sidewalks.
So why were police going to escort the Nazis through a black neighborhood they deliberately avoided getting a parade permit for? Who was the genius who came up with that one?
posted by mediareport at 7:38 AM on April 10, 2007
The violence started around noon as police were getting ready to escort about 15 Nazis on a march
Wait, the Toledo police had actually planned to *escort* the Nazis down the streets of a black neighborhood, effectively giving them official support for a deliberately provocative and hateful expression of speech? There's nothing in the First Amendment that requires that kind of support, and it seems particularly strange given this from the 2nd-to-last link:
Authorities said there was little they could do to stop the group, because they did not apply for a parade permit and instead planned to walk along sidewalks.
So why were police going to escort the Nazis through a black neighborhood they deliberately avoided getting a parade permit for? Who was the genius who came up with that one?
posted by mediareport at 7:38 AM on April 10, 2007
Ah the nazis, such endless fun !
Questioned about her mom, Sigmund Schumuk denies his mother is fond of black cock ! "She is fond of cock alright, but only white ones ! " We are looking forward interviewing Mrs Schmuck, me and all the guys !
And this is taken fron stormfront :) (really!)
which immediately elicited this response
But fear not, Nazi3 has the final solution
posted by elpapacito at 7:44 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
Questioned about her mom, Sigmund Schumuk denies his mother is fond of black cock ! "She is fond of cock alright, but only white ones ! " We are looking forward interviewing Mrs Schmuck, me and all the guys !
And this is taken fron stormfront :) (really!)
Nazidude1: Imagine an America where wise leaders exiled (to Africa or the Middle East) everyone whose IQ fell under 115.
which immediately elicited this response
Nazidude2: 115 is awfully high.Nazidude2 is all for standards, expect standards that exile him to Africa !
exile everyone under 95
But fear not, Nazi3 has the final solution
I would propose that we had doctors and professors who were first schooled in our ideology (mine in this hand, seeing as I don't know your) and with them educated and enlightened and also with their knowledge of eugenics and hereditity they could make descisions on what happens to who based on both the cooperation of the knowlege they have plus the ideology our society would be based around.Few ideas, but confused !
posted by elpapacito at 7:44 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
The Neo-Nazi's WANT conflict, obviously. They are trying to evoke a reaction. And the black community is falling right into that trap.
However, I do find it unusual for the NAACP to try to deny them police protection. Looks like THEY want conflict, as well, which strikes me as odd.
The fact of the matter is that the Neo-Nazi's have the same right to peaceful assembly that any protesting black group has. The minute they are no longer peaceful, come down on them hard and swift. But they have the right to exercise their constitutional rights just as much as the Million Man March.
I can already imagine how this thread will go, but consider if this were a parade by the Black Panthers to celebrate Malcolm X's birthday, and it was to go through an exclusively white neighborhood, and the white neighborhood wanted to deny them a permit, and also deny them police protection because, well, "you know" *wink*... the reaction here, and in Cincinnati, and in the rest of the country, would be very very very very different.
The good news is that police protection isn't, and shouldn't be, democratic in nature. All lawful citizens are owed the protection of the police. If they are, again, exercising their right to peaceful assembly, and that assembly is threatened by violence, then they are absolutely due protection.
I want to preserve the freedom of peaceful assembly for all groups, be it Neo-Nazi's, or La Leche League breastfeed-ins, or Gay Pride Marches, or Sons of the Confederacy re-enactments, or Rich Guys Driving Ferrari's, or Left-Handed Guys Named Stu.
It's very easy to abandon constitutional freedoms when the person using those freedoms doesn't meet with your approval, isn't it?
posted by Ynoxas at 7:45 AM on April 10, 2007 [6 favorites]
However, I do find it unusual for the NAACP to try to deny them police protection. Looks like THEY want conflict, as well, which strikes me as odd.
The fact of the matter is that the Neo-Nazi's have the same right to peaceful assembly that any protesting black group has. The minute they are no longer peaceful, come down on them hard and swift. But they have the right to exercise their constitutional rights just as much as the Million Man March.
I can already imagine how this thread will go, but consider if this were a parade by the Black Panthers to celebrate Malcolm X's birthday, and it was to go through an exclusively white neighborhood, and the white neighborhood wanted to deny them a permit, and also deny them police protection because, well, "you know" *wink*... the reaction here, and in Cincinnati, and in the rest of the country, would be very very very very different.
The good news is that police protection isn't, and shouldn't be, democratic in nature. All lawful citizens are owed the protection of the police. If they are, again, exercising their right to peaceful assembly, and that assembly is threatened by violence, then they are absolutely due protection.
I want to preserve the freedom of peaceful assembly for all groups, be it Neo-Nazi's, or La Leche League breastfeed-ins, or Gay Pride Marches, or Sons of the Confederacy re-enactments, or Rich Guys Driving Ferrari's, or Left-Handed Guys Named Stu.
It's very easy to abandon constitutional freedoms when the person using those freedoms doesn't meet with your approval, isn't it?
posted by Ynoxas at 7:45 AM on April 10, 2007 [6 favorites]
So why were police going to escort the Nazis through a black neighborhood they deliberately avoided getting a parade permit for?
Because it's their job. If the forecast calls for a 100% chance of violence the police need to be on hand. Even if you think these chuckleheads deserve to be beaten and/or killed it's not for the police to stand idly by and watch it happen.
posted by MikeMc at 7:46 AM on April 10, 2007
Because it's their job. If the forecast calls for a 100% chance of violence the police need to be on hand. Even if you think these chuckleheads deserve to be beaten and/or killed it's not for the police to stand idly by and watch it happen.
posted by MikeMc at 7:46 AM on April 10, 2007
This is getting a lot of media attention around here. And the usual suspects are out and about.
1. Whenever the neo-nazis pull this, it is invariably the counter protesters that come off looking stupid. The neo-nazis are normally (not always) smart enough to not physically attack crowds. If the crowd attacks the neo-nazis it actually legitimize much of what they say. Ideally Neo-nazis wouldn't need police protection, because civilized people would be intent on showing their moral superiority and support of free-speech. Of course, as pie throwing, flag burning, students often show. It isn't the fringe loonies who always behave as lunatics
2. Paying attention to them is pointless. How many times do you think they will march if no one comes to pay attention to them? Really, are people really afraid that the next Hitler is afoot in America?
Why o why do people get upset? It's so pointless. It's for attention. They will always be on the fringe. The Neo-nazis stage a march relatively often in my neighborhood, which is very multicultural. And the only reason they come back is because my neighbors keep paying attention to them.
Americans dying because of a lack of healthcare
An unjust war going on
An imperialist state
Corporate subsidies
Excessive taxation without proportional benefits
A drug war that is perhaps the most unjust domestic policy.
Mentally ill people not getting treatment
The suicide rate
The homocide rate
The growing gap between the rich and middle class
The fact that the air is killing us
Obesity
Police corruption
and so forth
Yea, but it's just easy to strike a pose of outrage over Imus and Neo-Nazi marches. It's a lot more sexy.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 7:47 AM on April 10, 2007
The only solution is to line the streets of this "parade" with great moments from black and jewish history. Big, huge displays.
Or better yet, just a bunch of pretty white women, sitting quietly, waving signs that read "I don't date racists".
posted by The Behatted Wild Man of Greenfield at 7:57 AM on April 10, 2007 [7 favorites]
Or better yet, just a bunch of pretty white women, sitting quietly, waving signs that read "I don't date racists".
posted by The Behatted Wild Man of Greenfield at 7:57 AM on April 10, 2007 [7 favorites]
Woah, there. Attacking Nazis doesn't legitimise them- it demonstrates that the attackers have a good sense of the danger posed by tolerance of fascists. Refusing them the image of strength and power, which can be done by violence, eliminates one of their biggest appeals.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:04 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:04 AM on April 10, 2007
Whenever the neo-nazis pull this, it is invariably the counter protesters that come off looking stupid.
This is true. Whenever there is violence at a Neo-Nazi protest it's invariably the peace, love and tolerance crowd throwing rocks and bottles and overturning police cars. "See, we're having a peaceful, legal gathering to exercise our rights as Americans and these savages are attacking us." The counterprotesters play right into their hands.
posted by MikeMc at 8:06 AM on April 10, 2007
This is true. Whenever there is violence at a Neo-Nazi protest it's invariably the peace, love and tolerance crowd throwing rocks and bottles and overturning police cars. "See, we're having a peaceful, legal gathering to exercise our rights as Americans and these savages are attacking us." The counterprotesters play right into their hands.
posted by MikeMc at 8:06 AM on April 10, 2007
Yea, but it's just easy to strike a pose of outrage over Imus and Neo-Nazi marches. It's a lot more sexy.
Well, when there are troubling ties between the FBI and Neo-Nazi organizers, then yea, its very sexy . . .
posted by Boydrop at 8:07 AM on April 10, 2007
Well, when there are troubling ties between the FBI and Neo-Nazi organizers, then yea, its very sexy . . .
posted by Boydrop at 8:07 AM on April 10, 2007
Ynoxas pretty much articulated what I've been thinking, but better. I'm all for Freedom of Speech for everyone - even the dumbasses. I guess for it to really work, Freedom of Speech needs to be there especially for the dumbasses.
I say throw a concert nearby, and give everyone something better/positive to focus their attention on. Nothing says "Your march sucks" better than your back.
posted by avoision at 8:12 AM on April 10, 2007
I say throw a concert nearby, and give everyone something better/positive to focus their attention on. Nothing says "Your march sucks" better than your back.
posted by avoision at 8:12 AM on April 10, 2007
So what, the people who are clearly in favor of killing millions of people have some kind of free speech right? They're not good-faith participants in the national discourse- they quite openly intend to engage in mass murder and state terror. Treating them as equals gives them a false image of respectability and permits their filth to spread. Tolerating hate is complicity in it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:16 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:16 AM on April 10, 2007
Woah, there. Attacking Nazis doesn't legitimise them- it demonstrates that the attackers have a good sense of the danger posed by tolerance of fascists
There is no danger. The whole theme is "against black crime." They want images, yet again, of blacks rioting so that they can simply say, "See!". They know they have little appeal to America. This event is for their fence sitters and supporters who want "action." It's quite transparent. It's a win-win situation for them regardless now since they have attention (win) and will get new promotional material (win) if violence occurs.
There is a reason they are marching through OTR and not a middle class area. And I wonder if the residents of OTR are really going to fall for a trick so easily. Rioting isn't going to hurt the Neo-Nazis in any form. Maybe a few broken noses, but true believers are usually willing to take shots for the cause.
And conventional wisdom still holds true. When facism does come to America it ain't gonna be brownshirts clubbing people in the streets.
Also, this is a somewhat unrelated musing. But is it hypocritical for anarchists to march with police protection?
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 8:17 AM on April 10, 2007
There is no danger. The whole theme is "against black crime." They want images, yet again, of blacks rioting so that they can simply say, "See!". They know they have little appeal to America. This event is for their fence sitters and supporters who want "action." It's quite transparent. It's a win-win situation for them regardless now since they have attention (win) and will get new promotional material (win) if violence occurs.
There is a reason they are marching through OTR and not a middle class area. And I wonder if the residents of OTR are really going to fall for a trick so easily. Rioting isn't going to hurt the Neo-Nazis in any form. Maybe a few broken noses, but true believers are usually willing to take shots for the cause.
And conventional wisdom still holds true. When facism does come to America it ain't gonna be brownshirts clubbing people in the streets.
Also, this is a somewhat unrelated musing. But is it hypocritical for anarchists to march with police protection?
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 8:17 AM on April 10, 2007
And if you really don't think they're dangerous, I invite you to peruse the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:17 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:17 AM on April 10, 2007
it demonstrates that the attackers have a good sense of the danger posed by tolerance of fascists
Does anyone, other than the fund raising department at the SPLC, really think this handfull of Fourth Reich wannabes is a credible threat to American democracy? Seriously, these guys peaked in the '50s/'60s and been going down hill ever since. Hell, half the membership of these organizations are probably Federal informants.
posted by MikeMc at 8:18 AM on April 10, 2007
Does anyone, other than the fund raising department at the SPLC, really think this handfull of Fourth Reich wannabes is a credible threat to American democracy? Seriously, these guys peaked in the '50s/'60s and been going down hill ever since. Hell, half the membership of these organizations are probably Federal informants.
posted by MikeMc at 8:18 AM on April 10, 2007
Lorenzo Komboa Ervin describes the left's fascination with neo-Nazis as "vanguard vs. vanguard politics," in that tiny groups of activist anti-racists find it important to confront tiny groups activist racists, and, in truth, this behavior distracts from the day-to-day struggle against real, institutionalized racism. Speaking as a Jew, I am far more frightened of the Christian right than I am of neo-Nazis, who have no foothold in power, are profoundly marginalized, and tend to be a greater danger to themselves than anybody else.
I say let them march, ignore them, to hell with them, and, if they ever start owning large businesses or electing their own to congress, then we might start to worry about them. But, at this moment, I am far more likely t be kicked to death by a mule than have any sort of meaningful, accidental interaction with a neo-Nazi.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:22 AM on April 10, 2007 [3 favorites]
I say let them march, ignore them, to hell with them, and, if they ever start owning large businesses or electing their own to congress, then we might start to worry about them. But, at this moment, I am far more likely t be kicked to death by a mule than have any sort of meaningful, accidental interaction with a neo-Nazi.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:22 AM on April 10, 2007 [3 favorites]
The mindset that they're not dangerous is precisely the mindset that allowed the 30's to happen the way they did. Any fascism anywhere is a threat to humanity.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:25 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:25 AM on April 10, 2007
The mindset that they're not dangerous is precisely the mindset that allowed the 30's to happen the way they did.
This isn't the Weimar Republic. The '30s happened the way they due to global economic hardship and political upheaval. The conditions for Nazi style facism to take root in a significant way don't currently exist here.
Lorenzo Komboa Ervin describes the left's fascination with neo-Nazis as "vanguard vs. vanguard politics," in that tiny groups of activist anti-racists find it important to confront tiny groups activist racists
Nail. Head.
posted by MikeMc at 8:32 AM on April 10, 2007
This isn't the Weimar Republic. The '30s happened the way they due to global economic hardship and political upheaval. The conditions for Nazi style facism to take root in a significant way don't currently exist here.
Lorenzo Komboa Ervin describes the left's fascination with neo-Nazis as "vanguard vs. vanguard politics," in that tiny groups of activist anti-racists find it important to confront tiny groups activist racists
Nail. Head.
posted by MikeMc at 8:32 AM on April 10, 2007
Lumping Imus and these neo-Nazis together is unclear thinking. Imus is some kind of racist, sure; it's not the first time he's betrayed his feelings about blacks on the airwaves and been made to serve up a defensive and insincere apology. But his racism isn't what should get him kicked off the air (the racists Limbaugh, Sharpton, Farrakhan, and G.W. Bush all have radio shows). What is most disturbing about Imus, and what he deserves a beating for, is that he's an asshole, deliberately insulting and demeaning a team of almost-champions, egregiously calling into question the sexual mores of a group of women who just lost in the tournament final, just for a cheap laugh. He's a bully, kicking them when they're down, and the injection of race into the matter just distracts from the fact that Imus is a cock who could do with a good punching.
Now, these Aryan yo-yos have, under precedent, a right to police protection if they march in a permitted area; if they've run it through the Mayor's office, they can spout their unpopular speech in whatever place they have a permit for. But if they stray, the police shouldn't stray with them. The police shouldn't follow them, ready for violence. Once the knives start sticking in the bellies of the neo-Nazi fools, and the 911 calls start to trickle in, the police should respond at their usual pace when shit goes down in the hood. There's nothing wrong with dead Nazis.
Yes, of course, a violent reaction is what these racists are looking to spark, and violence would in some way play into their hands. And maybe if everyone could be convinced to ignore them, it would be somewhat effective rhetoric the other way. I don't really think killing is the best way to go. But I still think it would be pretty satisfying if the gutters ran red with Nazi blood. They have it coming to them.
And on preview, global economic hardship and political upheaval? Take a look around.
posted by breezeway at 8:37 AM on April 10, 2007
Now, these Aryan yo-yos have, under precedent, a right to police protection if they march in a permitted area; if they've run it through the Mayor's office, they can spout their unpopular speech in whatever place they have a permit for. But if they stray, the police shouldn't stray with them. The police shouldn't follow them, ready for violence. Once the knives start sticking in the bellies of the neo-Nazi fools, and the 911 calls start to trickle in, the police should respond at their usual pace when shit goes down in the hood. There's nothing wrong with dead Nazis.
Yes, of course, a violent reaction is what these racists are looking to spark, and violence would in some way play into their hands. And maybe if everyone could be convinced to ignore them, it would be somewhat effective rhetoric the other way. I don't really think killing is the best way to go. But I still think it would be pretty satisfying if the gutters ran red with Nazi blood. They have it coming to them.
And on preview, global economic hardship and political upheaval? Take a look around.
posted by breezeway at 8:37 AM on April 10, 2007
NAACP and Cincinnati gettin' trolled.
Oh, and we used to have a Nazi rally every year here, even after it turned into a giant riot (when I was in high school. We made national news because one of my black schoolmates shielded a white nazi with her body). Then, a couple years back, there was a counter-rally held far away, with free food and music. The Nazis got, like, 15 people to show up, the counter demonstration got hundreds, there was no violence, and hey, free food!
The did that for a couple more years, and the Nazi numbers dwindled even further, to the point where they wouldn't have enough people to put together a parade. And sure, there were still some hardcore NWROC folks, but they're trotsky-ite idiots, and after a couple of them got busted there was a flurry of trying to mobilize people to free 'em, but the community basically let the whole thing snuff itself out.
In fact, I kinda miss the Nazi marches now, because damn, I could go for some free food and a party.
posted by klangklangston at 8:39 AM on April 10, 2007
Oh, and we used to have a Nazi rally every year here, even after it turned into a giant riot (when I was in high school. We made national news because one of my black schoolmates shielded a white nazi with her body). Then, a couple years back, there was a counter-rally held far away, with free food and music. The Nazis got, like, 15 people to show up, the counter demonstration got hundreds, there was no violence, and hey, free food!
The did that for a couple more years, and the Nazi numbers dwindled even further, to the point where they wouldn't have enough people to put together a parade. And sure, there were still some hardcore NWROC folks, but they're trotsky-ite idiots, and after a couple of them got busted there was a flurry of trying to mobilize people to free 'em, but the community basically let the whole thing snuff itself out.
In fact, I kinda miss the Nazi marches now, because damn, I could go for some free food and a party.
posted by klangklangston at 8:39 AM on April 10, 2007
I fully support their right to march even as much as I abhor their principles and policies. As others have mentioned, violence (especially against neutral local businesses) only legitimizes their cause.
If they showed up to march and the streets were deserted they would find another neighborhood to provoke, because that's obviously what they wanted in the first place.
posted by puppet at 8:39 AM on April 10, 2007
If they showed up to march and the streets were deserted they would find another neighborhood to provoke, because that's obviously what they wanted in the first place.
posted by puppet at 8:39 AM on April 10, 2007
violence (especially against neutral local businesses) only legitimizes their cause.
How? How does it legitimize their cause? How could anything legitimize their cause?
posted by psmealey at 8:41 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
How? How does it legitimize their cause? How could anything legitimize their cause?
posted by psmealey at 8:41 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
The just recently elected president of the local NAACP is a bit of a jackass. He's looking for headlines so he can use his position as a stepping stone to something else.
Chris Smitherman doesn't care about black people.
posted by Mick at 8:45 AM on April 10, 2007
Chris Smitherman doesn't care about black people.
posted by Mick at 8:45 AM on April 10, 2007
How? How does it legitimize their cause? How could anything legitimize their cause?
Ok, bad choice of words I admit. Their cause could never be 'legitimate'.
Violence (especially against local businesses) only gives them more fodder for their racist stereotypes.
posted by puppet at 8:49 AM on April 10, 2007
Ok, bad choice of words I admit. Their cause could never be 'legitimate'.
Violence (especially against local businesses) only gives them more fodder for their racist stereotypes.
posted by puppet at 8:49 AM on April 10, 2007
There's nothing wrong with dead Nazis...But I still think it would be pretty satisfying if the gutters ran red with Nazi blood. They have it coming to them.
Because murder is always the best way to deal with people whose beliefs you find abhorrent, right? You should apply for a job with the CIA, maybe you'd get to satisfy your bloodlust on some Taliban.
posted by MikeMc at 8:49 AM on April 10, 2007
Because murder is always the best way to deal with people whose beliefs you find abhorrent, right? You should apply for a job with the CIA, maybe you'd get to satisfy your bloodlust on some Taliban.
posted by MikeMc at 8:49 AM on April 10, 2007
Look, what you do is this: You get a bunch of people in the neighborhood together and you dress 'em up in Nazi uniforms, get the little Hitler mustaches, the deaths head riding crops, the black leather trench coats, the whole deal. In fact, Dave Chapelle lives in Ohio right? Call him up, he'll love this. You get a hundred or so young black men and women to dress as SS troopers and you do up Dave Chapelle as Hitler and when the neo-nazis come strolling down the street you strike up some crazy marching band music and surround them and march on down the street with them shouting "Death to Darkies" and "Kill the Jews." You agree with them, see? If they make a speech get a chorus of agreement going. A hundred black Nazis dancing around and screaming "send 'em back to Africa!"
Of course they want to be attacked, that's what they want, but it's a waste of time. Confuse 'em, make them look stupid. Get them to sputter and say "bbbb-but you're black."
It'll be awesome.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:55 AM on April 10, 2007 [3 favorites]
Of course they want to be attacked, that's what they want, but it's a waste of time. Confuse 'em, make them look stupid. Get them to sputter and say "bbbb-but you're black."
It'll be awesome.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:55 AM on April 10, 2007 [3 favorites]
Because murder is always the best way to deal with people whose beliefs you find abhorrent, right? You should apply for a job with the CIA, maybe you'd get to satisfy your bloodlust on some Taliban.
It has nothing to do with abhorrence. I find epistemic postmodernism to be pretty damn abhorrent- it doesn't follow that epistemic postmodernists deserve to die. Advocacy of violence against fascists is based upon a recognition of the threat to humanity posed by the existence of fascists.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:59 AM on April 10, 2007
It has nothing to do with abhorrence. I find epistemic postmodernism to be pretty damn abhorrent- it doesn't follow that epistemic postmodernists deserve to die. Advocacy of violence against fascists is based upon a recognition of the threat to humanity posed by the existence of fascists.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:59 AM on April 10, 2007
A hundred black Nazis dancing around and screaming "send 'em back to Africa!"
And a midget dressed as Herman Goering spanking Hitler...
posted by MikeMc at 9:01 AM on April 10, 2007
And a midget dressed as Herman Goering spanking Hitler...
posted by MikeMc at 9:01 AM on April 10, 2007
breezeway: I agree with you on Imus. He's just a garden variety idiot and racist.
But like I said above, would you be okay with knives sticking in the bellies of Black Panthers who were shouting "Kill the White Devils" while walking through some white neighborhood? If you KNEW there was going to be blood spilled over nothing except charged slogans, don't you think you owe some responsibility, as the law, to help avoid that? Maybe the Chief of Police doesn't support the Black Panthers' viewpoint at all. Does that mean he takes his own sweet time and lets them die in the street? Of course not.
This is not as simple as just saying "Nazi's are bad". It is a little more complex than that.
Divine_Wino: I like your idea. Do you take PayPal?
How? How does it legitimize their cause? How could anything legitimize their cause?
posted by psmealey at 10:41 AM on April 10
"Look at these blacks, they are nothing but hoodlums. We try to have a peaceful march to express our political views, and they attack us and then riot and destroy their own neighborhood. See, they are lesser people, just like we said. They are stupid, violent, and can't be trusted. They aren't like you and me. Something needs to be done about all these poor inner-city blacks."
I'm not a Neo-Nazi and that took me all of 7 seconds to come up with. I expect their rhetoric is a bit more thought out and complex, but maybe not; I fancy myself as quite a bit smarter than the typical Neo-Nazi.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:06 AM on April 10, 2007
But like I said above, would you be okay with knives sticking in the bellies of Black Panthers who were shouting "Kill the White Devils" while walking through some white neighborhood? If you KNEW there was going to be blood spilled over nothing except charged slogans, don't you think you owe some responsibility, as the law, to help avoid that? Maybe the Chief of Police doesn't support the Black Panthers' viewpoint at all. Does that mean he takes his own sweet time and lets them die in the street? Of course not.
This is not as simple as just saying "Nazi's are bad". It is a little more complex than that.
Divine_Wino: I like your idea. Do you take PayPal?
How? How does it legitimize their cause? How could anything legitimize their cause?
posted by psmealey at 10:41 AM on April 10
"Look at these blacks, they are nothing but hoodlums. We try to have a peaceful march to express our political views, and they attack us and then riot and destroy their own neighborhood. See, they are lesser people, just like we said. They are stupid, violent, and can't be trusted. They aren't like you and me. Something needs to be done about all these poor inner-city blacks."
I'm not a Neo-Nazi and that took me all of 7 seconds to come up with. I expect their rhetoric is a bit more thought out and complex, but maybe not; I fancy myself as quite a bit smarter than the typical Neo-Nazi.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:06 AM on April 10, 2007
Nazis?....say, didn’t they LOSE already? Didn’t Hitler blow his own brains out because he couldn’t take it? That’s your guy? I mean even if you buy into the whole fascist national socialist concept there, it broke under stress. War settled that question. Do they honestly think marching through podunk Ohio with a little flag is going to do something the finely honed, excellently equipped and well-disciplined German war machine couldn’t do? The question has been settled. I understand rooting for the underdog, but hey, games’ over. Where are all the Soviet Socialists in the U.S. celebrating Stalin’s birthday? There aren’t any. Why? ‘Cause they’ve noticed it failed. Just some hipsters celebrating the kitch value of the hammer and sickle.
You really want to counter protest, bring some actual Germans. They’re pretty touchy about it. Although this is about as silly as the German hipster co-option of the whole cowboy thing or the Japanese co-option of bluegrass/hillbilly thing. Cross cultural stuff can get a little weird. I mean why call yourself a “nazi?” Why not just say “fascist” or make something up?
They want to go with “nazi” they should get a parade permit just like civil war re-enactors. Which is what the counter-protest should be. Bunch of guys dressed in Vichy uniforms, (someone to play Marshall Pétain) retreating in front of them. Some French underground mixed in amongst them carrying loaves of bread that look suspiciously like they have grease guns hidden inside. Italians on either side. Bunch of Soviet and American paratroopers behind them playing to stereotype.
+ what Ynoxas said.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:14 AM on April 10, 2007
You really want to counter protest, bring some actual Germans. They’re pretty touchy about it. Although this is about as silly as the German hipster co-option of the whole cowboy thing or the Japanese co-option of bluegrass/hillbilly thing. Cross cultural stuff can get a little weird. I mean why call yourself a “nazi?” Why not just say “fascist” or make something up?
They want to go with “nazi” they should get a parade permit just like civil war re-enactors. Which is what the counter-protest should be. Bunch of guys dressed in Vichy uniforms, (someone to play Marshall Pétain) retreating in front of them. Some French underground mixed in amongst them carrying loaves of bread that look suspiciously like they have grease guns hidden inside. Italians on either side. Bunch of Soviet and American paratroopers behind them playing to stereotype.
+ what Ynoxas said.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:14 AM on April 10, 2007
And to make sure I am being crystal clear: I do not support the Neo-Nazi's message. I only support their right to express it.
I also support the right of the Black Panthers to line the street with their backs turned to the marchers.
I also support the white churches of the area making calls for love and understanding, not hatred and bigotry.
I also support the libertarians protesting that the state shouldn't be wasting money on stuff like this.
I also support the lazy ass simpletons who sit at home watching TV and have no idea this is even happening in their community.
And of all those groups, the last draws most of my ire. But I still support their right to not get involved.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:15 AM on April 10, 2007
I also support the right of the Black Panthers to line the street with their backs turned to the marchers.
I also support the white churches of the area making calls for love and understanding, not hatred and bigotry.
I also support the libertarians protesting that the state shouldn't be wasting money on stuff like this.
I also support the lazy ass simpletons who sit at home watching TV and have no idea this is even happening in their community.
And of all those groups, the last draws most of my ire. But I still support their right to not get involved.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:15 AM on April 10, 2007
MikeMc (and more on preview), I guess with my wild rhetoric it's understandably easy to elide my saying "I don't really think killing is the best way to go." The Quakers taught me better. I'm being a whacko, and using this forum to say some of the more extreme things that pass through my head, as many folks do. It's wrong, and I'm sorry. But as far as satisfaction is concerned, I can see a case for murder (if I squint my eyes and make things go all fuzzy). The trouble is finding the person directly responsible for whatever it is you're avenging. When you have these groups claiming race war and supporting concentration camps and the like, it's easy to project responsibility for past horrors on them. My grandfather's German cousin died in a concentration camp because he was a trade unionist, along with more people than some care to remember. These neo-Nazis are celebrating those deaths, even as they're denying them (weird paradox), and it's easy and lazy for me to accept that as a claim of responsibility. I've been thinking a lot today about people who cheat vengeance, and my rhetoric got out of hand. On one hand, I'd love to see them bleed to death. On the other hand, I'd love to see them ignored. On yet another hand, I'd love to see them stabbed and then saved by quick thinking on the part of a black or Jewish paramedic. On a fourth hand, I'd love to see the skies open up and hear the booming voice of god roll over the land, "YOU ARE WRONG!" On one more hand, I'd love most for them to each have some afflatus, in which they realize the error of their ways and immediately stop thinking the way they do. I've got hands like Siva.
So yeah, you're right, my rhetoric got the better of me, and I apologize to everyone for my bloodthirstiness upthread. Calls for murder suck, even if they're for Nazis or Dick Cheney.
But you're wrong about the CIA; there are still plenty of hardworking, apolitical public servants trying their hardest in a very difficult time to improve the standing of the United States abroad, and to make individual countries all over the world a safer place for both visitors and their own citizens. Just because they work for a madman doesn't mean they're torturers, and just because you're ignorant of the good they do, doesn't mean good isn't done.
posted by breezeway at 9:26 AM on April 10, 2007
So yeah, you're right, my rhetoric got the better of me, and I apologize to everyone for my bloodthirstiness upthread. Calls for murder suck, even if they're for Nazis or Dick Cheney.
But you're wrong about the CIA; there are still plenty of hardworking, apolitical public servants trying their hardest in a very difficult time to improve the standing of the United States abroad, and to make individual countries all over the world a safer place for both visitors and their own citizens. Just because they work for a madman doesn't mean they're torturers, and just because you're ignorant of the good they do, doesn't mean good isn't done.
posted by breezeway at 9:26 AM on April 10, 2007
I live 30 miles north of Cincinnati. I agree this is a complex issue but the bottom line is people have the right to their opinion, no matter how ignorant or wrong YOU find it to be.
Of course, the best reaction would be to let the Nazis march and ignore them but that seems to be easier said than done. Nothing will please them more than to spark a riot. It only strengthens their position that anyone who opposes them is inferior.
The only thing I know for certain is that this will not end well.
posted by The Mermaid at 9:30 AM on April 10, 2007
Of course, the best reaction would be to let the Nazis march and ignore them but that seems to be easier said than done. Nothing will please them more than to spark a riot. It only strengthens their position that anyone who opposes them is inferior.
The only thing I know for certain is that this will not end well.
posted by The Mermaid at 9:30 AM on April 10, 2007
This discussion kind of reminds me of the afterschool special movie, White Lies, where the fetching Sarah Polley plays a young Ann Coulter.
posted by psmealey at 9:31 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by psmealey at 9:31 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
Smedleyman, I'm convinced it's the uniforms. These guys like the way those Allgemeine-SS uniforms look and the way they fancy themselves to look in them. So....yeah, I think you're way right about the re-enactors; it's like SCV, a vicarious power trip of sorts I was treated to (and asked to consider participating alongside as a Civil War re-enactor, to my great amusement). As far as the cross-cultural angle of re-enactment goes, I wish Roman legion re-enactment were more in vogue. Carthago delenda est!
I hope the NAACP throws a really good, klangklangstonesque sort of block party at least half a mile from the parade route -- I'd drive down for that, damn betcha.
posted by pax digita at 9:37 AM on April 10, 2007
I hope the NAACP throws a really good, klangklangstonesque sort of block party at least half a mile from the parade route -- I'd drive down for that, damn betcha.
posted by pax digita at 9:37 AM on April 10, 2007
Where are all the Soviet Socialists in the U.S. celebrating Stalin’s birthday? There aren’t any. Why? ‘Cause they’ve noticed it failed. Just some hipsters celebrating the kitch value of the hammer and sickle.
There are Marxists around, though, Smed. They tend to be college professors; as a history major, I had a couple myself. They generally consider Stalin an aberration, a sharp right turn that screwed up Marxism to the point where the big experiment had no chance, well before Hitler screwed up Germany, the rest of Europe, and finally brought his road show east. I'd be damned surprised if anybody anywhere wants to celebrate Stalin's birthday -- he wasn't about Marxism-Leninism, or socialism, or Russia, or really much anything but Stalin.
posted by pax digita at 9:46 AM on April 10, 2007
There are Marxists around, though, Smed. They tend to be college professors; as a history major, I had a couple myself. They generally consider Stalin an aberration, a sharp right turn that screwed up Marxism to the point where the big experiment had no chance, well before Hitler screwed up Germany, the rest of Europe, and finally brought his road show east. I'd be damned surprised if anybody anywhere wants to celebrate Stalin's birthday -- he wasn't about Marxism-Leninism, or socialism, or Russia, or really much anything but Stalin.
posted by pax digita at 9:46 AM on April 10, 2007
There are still Stalinists around. I used to run into them on the University of Minnesota's East Bank. They would hang out in bars and loudly, and ignorantly, argue that the Gulag's were overstated, the Stalin never actually starved anyone, that the mass murders and political oppression under Stalin didn't happen, and that the working man could never get justice without Stalin.
I couldn't believe it either.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:00 AM on April 10, 2007
I couldn't believe it either.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:00 AM on April 10, 2007
I'd love most for them to each have some afflatus, in which they realize the error of their ways and immediately stop thinking the way they do.
I often wonder how far removed from day to day reality these guys are that they don't get out of bed one morning and realize that RaHoWa isn't coming. I think the "Old Guard" of the extreme right knew this long ago but they keeping stoking what little fire is left in their movement for personal gain. It's just a matter of time until the "movement" fades away as the last old timers like William Pierce and Richard Butler die off.
posted by MikeMc at 10:00 AM on April 10, 2007
I often wonder how far removed from day to day reality these guys are that they don't get out of bed one morning and realize that RaHoWa isn't coming. I think the "Old Guard" of the extreme right knew this long ago but they keeping stoking what little fire is left in their movement for personal gain. It's just a matter of time until the "movement" fades away as the last old timers like William Pierce and Richard Butler die off.
posted by MikeMc at 10:00 AM on April 10, 2007
Not only Stalinists but Trots and Sparts and even Maoists.
It's like college campuses are where shitty ideologies go to die.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:04 AM on April 10, 2007
It's like college campuses are where shitty ideologies go to die.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:04 AM on April 10, 2007
There are still Stalinists around.
I'd love to meet some of these people and get a grip on their staggering stupidity.
Not only did Stalin murder a lot of people, indescrimintely, he systematically murdered an entire generation of political and military leaders, sold out people of neighboring countries by agreeing to the non-aggression pact with Hitler, and then allowed many more of his own citizens to be needlessly slaughtered when he failed to act.
Stalin set Russia and it's satellites back at least two generations, something that they arguably still have not recovered from, 50 years later.
If there is a worse leader in human history, it is very hard to think of one.*
* Ok, maybe Pol Pot was worse, but it's definitely hard to think of two.
posted by psmealey at 10:06 AM on April 10, 2007
I'd love to meet some of these people and get a grip on their staggering stupidity.
Not only did Stalin murder a lot of people, indescrimintely, he systematically murdered an entire generation of political and military leaders, sold out people of neighboring countries by agreeing to the non-aggression pact with Hitler, and then allowed many more of his own citizens to be needlessly slaughtered when he failed to act.
Stalin set Russia and it's satellites back at least two generations, something that they arguably still have not recovered from, 50 years later.
If there is a worse leader in human history, it is very hard to think of one.*
* Ok, maybe Pol Pot was worse, but it's definitely hard to think of two.
posted by psmealey at 10:06 AM on April 10, 2007
would the world
really
miss
a bunch of dead nazis?
i don't think there would be a period shortage.
posted by quarter waters and a bag of chips at 10:11 AM on April 10, 2007
really
miss
a bunch of dead nazis?
i don't think there would be a period shortage.
posted by quarter waters and a bag of chips at 10:11 AM on April 10, 2007
If you want to defeat racism, don't make it look like Satan, make it look like Bozo the Clown. Thankfully the KKK/neo-Nazi types have already given us a head start.
posted by jonmc at 10:33 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 10:33 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
I have not been to Cincinatti, so I can't speak for how the Neo-Nazi's there behave or their motivations. However, back in D.C. and Virginia while I lived there, I somehow managed to find every single little cult of Aryan Pride that was into being vangard at the time. Several of them, shortly after my initial dealings with them, ended up in prison for a long, long time (which doesn't improve anything in my opinion, since really what these boys needed was someone to discipline their minds out of the racist bullshit and get them to understand what they are so angry about in the first place). All of them were from blue-collar backgrounds. All of them had very aggressive personalities (and yet were very paranoid and defensive), and every single one of them was itching, nay twitching with anticipation, for a fight. They are not Hitler wanna-be's or fanboys. They do not wish to relive the Nazi German facist state. They simply want power, and they seek to increase their leverage and ability to use said power through the organization of like minded individuals, wrapped around the notion of "White Pride". Mind you, they're all mutts. German-Irish, Irish-Polish, Polish-Dutch, etc, etc. None of them are in any way "truly" White (and I think you have to be British to pull that off anyway, pasty motherfuckers). The closest they get to actual Nazi rhetoric is who "the enemy" is. The other.
But it's really not about being white. They just don't trust any other "race" because they can't identify readily with them. Most black people have entirely different backgrounds, grew up in different neighborhoods, are angry about different things. Same for hispanics, asians, arabs. They don't have the same excuses to get riled up over. They don't have the same focuses that they push off all their blame upon. They simply can't rally around the same common enemy.
But, anyway, I say fuck'em. Let the Cincinatti police escort them. Them them provoke _another_ riot. The riots in April 2001 were because the police were shooting black people first, asking questions later (at least from the way the black community saw things). Let the police make the same mistake again. Let the property damage, the fires, the death show them how badly they are mismanaging the situation, again. Some people need to learn not just what they are doing wrong, but why.
posted by daq at 10:36 AM on April 10, 2007
But it's really not about being white. They just don't trust any other "race" because they can't identify readily with them. Most black people have entirely different backgrounds, grew up in different neighborhoods, are angry about different things. Same for hispanics, asians, arabs. They don't have the same excuses to get riled up over. They don't have the same focuses that they push off all their blame upon. They simply can't rally around the same common enemy.
But, anyway, I say fuck'em. Let the Cincinatti police escort them. Them them provoke _another_ riot. The riots in April 2001 were because the police were shooting black people first, asking questions later (at least from the way the black community saw things). Let the police make the same mistake again. Let the property damage, the fires, the death show them how badly they are mismanaging the situation, again. Some people need to learn not just what they are doing wrong, but why.
posted by daq at 10:36 AM on April 10, 2007
If you want to defeat racism, don't make it look like Satan, make it look like Bozo the Clown.
That's pretty much the sentiment that inspired Mel Brooks to come up with the "Springtime for Hitler" shtick in The Producers: The ulitmate disarming of Hitler, he figured, was to reduce him to nothing but a punchline.
Having grown up with childhood friends's parents who were in the Klan, they're definitely unenlightened self-parody, I agree.
posted by pax digita at 10:45 AM on April 10, 2007
That's pretty much the sentiment that inspired Mel Brooks to come up with the "Springtime for Hitler" shtick in The Producers: The ulitmate disarming of Hitler, he figured, was to reduce him to nothing but a punchline.
Having grown up with childhood friends's parents who were in the Klan, they're definitely unenlightened self-parody, I agree.
posted by pax digita at 10:45 AM on April 10, 2007
“I wish Roman legion re-enactment were more in vogue.”
Now that would be cool. And I agree, divorced from ideology, those are some stylish nazi threads. (Although, y’know, roman orgies - you can’t beat that)
Hmm...anyone hanging on to any of Rome’s big losers?
Bunch of divine monarchist apologists trying to say Caligula was an ok guy?
Y’know, someone could do a Star Trek thing where they beamed down to the nazi planet as well. Walk around with a communicator commenting on the odd primative goings on.
And yeah - unenlightened self-parody indeed. Over-the-Rhine? C’mon man. How can they take themselves seriously?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:03 AM on April 10, 2007
Now that would be cool. And I agree, divorced from ideology, those are some stylish nazi threads. (Although, y’know, roman orgies - you can’t beat that)
Hmm...anyone hanging on to any of Rome’s big losers?
Bunch of divine monarchist apologists trying to say Caligula was an ok guy?
Y’know, someone could do a Star Trek thing where they beamed down to the nazi planet as well. Walk around with a communicator commenting on the odd primative goings on.
And yeah - unenlightened self-parody indeed. Over-the-Rhine? C’mon man. How can they take themselves seriously?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:03 AM on April 10, 2007
Over the Rhine is the name of the neighborhood. Has been for 200+ years.
posted by Mick at 11:10 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by Mick at 11:10 AM on April 10, 2007
On second thought, signs reading "Dark meat junkie."
posted by The Behatted Wild Man of Greenfield at 11:15 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by The Behatted Wild Man of Greenfield at 11:15 AM on April 10, 2007
goodness, people... it's
C I N C I N N A T I
there's only one 't'.
or, censor-nati. or cinci-nasty. etc.
posted by mrballistic at 11:31 AM on April 10, 2007
C I N C I N N A T I
there's only one 't'.
or, censor-nati. or cinci-nasty. etc.
posted by mrballistic at 11:31 AM on April 10, 2007
Over-the-Rhine? C’mon man.
Every time I hear that name I picture Patton leading a column of Sherman tanks across a bridge.
posted by MikeMc at 11:40 AM on April 10, 2007
Every time I hear that name I picture Patton leading a column of Sherman tanks across a bridge.
posted by MikeMc at 11:40 AM on April 10, 2007
I'm late to the tea party, but...
Attacking Nazis doesn't legitimise them- it demonstrates that the attackers have a good sense of the danger posed by tolerance of fascists. Refusing them the image of strength and power, which can be done by violence, eliminates one of their biggest appeals.
Attacking Nazis does legitimize them, not only for the propaganda images of rioting and crime, but also because, when they put on those uniforms and go on their march, they seek to be feared and hated. However, if you treat them like the idiots they are, then you truly disarm them.
The real danger in America is not hanging out at the National Vanguard messageboard.
The comments about vanguard vs. vanguard politics are spot-on as well. Focusing your energies into battling Neo-Nazi goons becomes a passion play about racism, and not an actual attempt to make anything better for anyone.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:43 AM on April 10, 2007
Attacking Nazis doesn't legitimise them- it demonstrates that the attackers have a good sense of the danger posed by tolerance of fascists. Refusing them the image of strength and power, which can be done by violence, eliminates one of their biggest appeals.
Attacking Nazis does legitimize them, not only for the propaganda images of rioting and crime, but also because, when they put on those uniforms and go on their march, they seek to be feared and hated. However, if you treat them like the idiots they are, then you truly disarm them.
The real danger in America is not hanging out at the National Vanguard messageboard.
The comments about vanguard vs. vanguard politics are spot-on as well. Focusing your energies into battling Neo-Nazi goons becomes a passion play about racism, and not an actual attempt to make anything better for anyone.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:43 AM on April 10, 2007
Cincinnazi, OH?
posted by joe lisboa at 11:46 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by joe lisboa at 11:46 AM on April 10, 2007
These wannabe fascists have a very limited, you're-either-with-us-or-against-us view of the world. If people refuse to behave in one of the two ways they expect people to behave, it confuses them and makes them very angry. Mel Brooks got it right- clown the hell out of the bastards.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:56 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by oneirodynia at 11:56 AM on April 10, 2007
breezeway: you should be the official spokesperson re: the Don Imus debacle, not Jesse Jackson
klangklangston: I remember that news story about your classmate. She's a better woman than I'll ever be.
posted by Jess the Mess at 12:33 PM on April 10, 2007
klangklangston: I remember that news story about your classmate. She's a better woman than I'll ever be.
posted by Jess the Mess at 12:33 PM on April 10, 2007
Maybe someone should hire Over the Rhine to put on a free outdoor concert near Over-the-Rhine to draw attention away from the Nazis.
As Lisa S. once sang: "Just don't look!"
posted by eustacescrubb at 1:57 PM on April 10, 2007
As Lisa S. once sang: "Just don't look!"
posted by eustacescrubb at 1:57 PM on April 10, 2007
I'll be there. First ball is free for Jews and blacks. Heh heh.
posted by racist dunk-tank clown at 2:27 PM on April 10, 2007
posted by racist dunk-tank clown at 2:27 PM on April 10, 2007
“Over the Rhine is the name of the neighborhood. Has been for 200+ years.”
All the funnier that they’d miss the irony.
“But is it hypocritical for anarchists to march with police protection?”
Yeah, I enjoy the peace protesters busting heads for pacifism as well.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:40 PM on April 10, 2007
All the funnier that they’d miss the irony.
“But is it hypocritical for anarchists to march with police protection?”
Yeah, I enjoy the peace protesters busting heads for pacifism as well.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:40 PM on April 10, 2007
I think that the Neo Nazis should get to have their say. They have first amendment rights like every other American. Even if their message is so, so stupid.
Dubya gets police protection everywhere he goes. I think that he registers more strongly on the Evil-O-Meter. Nazism is dead. I think that Sinclair Lewis said something like "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." I worry a lot more about what GWB says than what these fools do.
posted by SteveTheRed at 8:49 PM on April 10, 2007
Dubya gets police protection everywhere he goes. I think that he registers more strongly on the Evil-O-Meter. Nazism is dead. I think that Sinclair Lewis said something like "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." I worry a lot more about what GWB says than what these fools do.
posted by SteveTheRed at 8:49 PM on April 10, 2007
I'm not saying Nazis can't march - I'm saying that if they 1) don't bother to get a permit and 2) choose to march in a black neighborhood, they shouldn't get a police escort at taxpayer expense. It's a complex issue, yes, with no easy boundaries, but I think the "fighting words" exemption to completely unfettered free speech is indeed relevant here (and the city seems to be trying to use it). There are plenty of places racists can march to get their message heard, but marching in a black neighborhood is deliberately aggressive and crosses the line into something other than speech. The Nazis know this, that's why they're doing it; the situation puts the city in an impossible position, which the Nazis can sit back and laugh at.
Fuck 'em. They get a police presence if they get a permit. If they don't get a permit, they get a bill for whatever policework they wind up needing, and no "escort" down the streets of a black neighborhood. There's no guarantee in the Constitution for protection from your own stupidly aggressive behavior.
posted by mediareport at 10:09 PM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
Fuck 'em. They get a police presence if they get a permit. If they don't get a permit, they get a bill for whatever policework they wind up needing, and no "escort" down the streets of a black neighborhood. There's no guarantee in the Constitution for protection from your own stupidly aggressive behavior.
posted by mediareport at 10:09 PM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
something other than speech
"something more than just speech," I mean.
posted by mediareport at 10:10 PM on April 10, 2007
"something more than just speech," I mean.
posted by mediareport at 10:10 PM on April 10, 2007
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