Unacceptable, period.
April 11, 2007 8:18 PM Subscribe
(news/outragefilter): BBC reports that the new appraisal forms for Indian civil service employees require women to disclose information about their menstrual histories and any pregnancy leave.
See the actual report here (pdf). Content in question is on page 58.
posted by aberrant at 8:34 PM on April 11, 2007
posted by aberrant at 8:34 PM on April 11, 2007
mr_crash_davis, that's an unacceptable period.
posted by davejay at 8:35 PM on April 11, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by davejay at 8:35 PM on April 11, 2007 [3 favorites]
It is apparent that India takes their health care and health care costs seriously. So a tad overdone by American standards you think?
Given that fifty percent of the population is women, what advisor to the state would NOT ask the same questions that any American gynecologist asks a new patient?
Oh? Maybe it is the "perception" of intrusion into personal life we are speaking of here?
Good thing no American gynecologists share any records with the state....when asked ever so politely.
posted by Penny Wise at 8:53 PM on April 11, 2007
Given that fifty percent of the population is women, what advisor to the state would NOT ask the same questions that any American gynecologist asks a new patient?
Oh? Maybe it is the "perception" of intrusion into personal life we are speaking of here?
Good thing no American gynecologists share any records with the state....when asked ever so politely.
posted by Penny Wise at 8:53 PM on April 11, 2007
Good thing no American gynecologists share any records with the state....when asked ever so politely.
I presume you're kidding. HIPAA makes this sort of information sharing pretty much against the law in the US. These women are not patients, they're employees, working for the state. There are many reasons your health information is private, one is so that it can not be used to discriminate against you illegally.
posted by jessamyn at 9:01 PM on April 11, 2007
I presume you're kidding. HIPAA makes this sort of information sharing pretty much against the law in the US. These women are not patients, they're employees, working for the state. There are many reasons your health information is private, one is so that it can not be used to discriminate against you illegally.
posted by jessamyn at 9:01 PM on April 11, 2007
The news stories don't seem to mention this is in the middle of a big wodge of other detailed medical questions. They'd have much more of a point if it was the only medical question.
Also, it says in the PDF:
posted by cillit bang at 9:39 PM on April 11, 2007
Also, it says in the PDF:
The health check is mandatory for all officers above the age of 40 and may be totally dispensed with officers below the age of 40, except in case of medical incident.I don't see that in the BBC article.
posted by cillit bang at 9:39 PM on April 11, 2007
Jessamyn, I am not against capturing the data, per se. Just saying that once captured, it is as private as any "secret" you told your best friend in high school.
The law you refer to may threaten with loss of job and severe financial penalties. Organizations spend huge amounts of dollars to educate their workers on the repercussions of not following this law.... but the people who have access to this data are STILL your best friends from high school, just a decade or two older.
posted by Penny Wise at 10:03 PM on April 11, 2007
The law you refer to may threaten with loss of job and severe financial penalties. Organizations spend huge amounts of dollars to educate their workers on the repercussions of not following this law.... but the people who have access to this data are STILL your best friends from high school, just a decade or two older.
posted by Penny Wise at 10:03 PM on April 11, 2007
Meh. These forms will only end up in a huge manila folder, tied up with a bright red ribbon, and left to gather dust for the next 200 years on top of a bank of filing cabinets in some office belonging to the Deputy District Assistant Sub-Inspector of Applications, lost amongst ten thousand similar manila folders, which probably contain information of equal uselessness & non-interest to anybody.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:01 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:01 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
It's worth mentioning that menstruation isn't as openly discussed in India as in eg. the USA. So, culturally, it's even more of an outrage.
posted by Firas at 12:40 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Firas at 12:40 AM on April 12, 2007
It seems like a tough line to walk, making allowances for real variability in performance due to real variability in hormones and dramatic, temporary, physiological and psychological changes.
This is in the context of performance reviews after all. America's answer to this sort of question is to pretend we're completely sex-blind and also to pretend we don't pay women less than men across the board on the assumption that they'll be absent for a third of their working life regardless of whether they're making and/or rearing babies.
posted by litfit at 1:00 AM on April 12, 2007
This is in the context of performance reviews after all. America's answer to this sort of question is to pretend we're completely sex-blind and also to pretend we don't pay women less than men across the board on the assumption that they'll be absent for a third of their working life regardless of whether they're making and/or rearing babies.
posted by litfit at 1:00 AM on April 12, 2007
Hundreds of pieces of paper describing cramps,clots and raging hormones. Would be a blast to read I'm sure.
posted by gomichild at 3:24 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by gomichild at 3:24 AM on April 12, 2007
Why stop there; why not ask them how many times they pee too and their quantity as well.
I can’t remember it clearly, but there was something similar to this concerning female students (14, or younger), who were asked to reveal their menstrual cycle to the school authorities for some reason. I wish I had saved the link; I think it was the principal who had ordered the data to be documented.
Also, I must remember to ask my neighbour about this. She’s a civil servant as well, but the only problem is, as someone pointed out on top, we don’t discuss things of this nature here. Maybe it’s time we do, god dammit!
posted by hadjiboy at 3:29 AM on April 12, 2007
I can’t remember it clearly, but there was something similar to this concerning female students (14, or younger), who were asked to reveal their menstrual cycle to the school authorities for some reason. I wish I had saved the link; I think it was the principal who had ordered the data to be documented.
Also, I must remember to ask my neighbour about this. She’s a civil servant as well, but the only problem is, as someone pointed out on top, we don’t discuss things of this nature here. Maybe it’s time we do, god dammit!
posted by hadjiboy at 3:29 AM on April 12, 2007
's funny, actually, because I worked recently for a US company (I'm British) and I was legally compelled to list my ethnic origin on a survey that was sent around. I was told that, while the company disapproved, there was no way to avoid this—US law required it. Curiously, the only category that applied to me was "Of European origin". I guess this is true, because I am of European origin. But I'm also still there—I'm still in Europe!
So outrage at surveys like this really depend on where you live and what you're used to. British forms sometimes include an ethnic origin component, but it's voluntary, and a pledge is usually stated that it's solely to help ensure minorities get the right level of help.
posted by humblepigeon at 5:11 AM on April 12, 2007
So outrage at surveys like this really depend on where you live and what you're used to. British forms sometimes include an ethnic origin component, but it's voluntary, and a pledge is usually stated that it's solely to help ensure minorities get the right level of help.
posted by humblepigeon at 5:11 AM on April 12, 2007
Penny Wise writes: The law you refer to may threaten with loss of job and severe financial penalties. Organizations spend huge amounts of dollars to educate their workers on the repercussions of not following this law.... but the people who have access to this data are STILL your best friends from high school, just a decade or two older.
Except HIPAA has huge, sharp teeth to compel people not to let the data slip out. It's not really a valid analogy, because if you think you've been discriminated against by an employer based on something like this, you have double recourse: the Feds can swoop in with the hand of justice, and then you can sue the everliving hell out of both the people who leaked the info, and the people who they leaked it to. Compare this to the situation in question, where you're basically screwed if the company you're interviewing with thinks you're more likely to go have a baby than are the other applicants.
Unless you're saying that in India, your medical records are the equivalent of gossiping to your best friend, in which case, sure, that's valid, but we're arguing that it's a really shitty setup for half the population.
Oh? Maybe it is the "perception" of intrusion into personal life we are speaking of here?
There's no "scare quotes" about it: that's the definition of intrusion into personal life. The laws governing what happens when you intrude are different, is all.
posted by Mayor West at 6:20 AM on April 12, 2007
Except HIPAA has huge, sharp teeth to compel people not to let the data slip out. It's not really a valid analogy, because if you think you've been discriminated against by an employer based on something like this, you have double recourse: the Feds can swoop in with the hand of justice, and then you can sue the everliving hell out of both the people who leaked the info, and the people who they leaked it to. Compare this to the situation in question, where you're basically screwed if the company you're interviewing with thinks you're more likely to go have a baby than are the other applicants.
Unless you're saying that in India, your medical records are the equivalent of gossiping to your best friend, in which case, sure, that's valid, but we're arguing that it's a really shitty setup for half the population.
Oh? Maybe it is the "perception" of intrusion into personal life we are speaking of here?
There's no "scare quotes" about it: that's the definition of intrusion into personal life. The laws governing what happens when you intrude are different, is all.
posted by Mayor West at 6:20 AM on April 12, 2007
The phrasing of the FPP made me think that it was Britain requiring such disclosures from civil servants of Indian ethnicity.
posted by eustacescrubb at 6:59 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by eustacescrubb at 6:59 AM on April 12, 2007
As an aside, HIPAA is an utter joke, because it just means that healthcare providers put little "You allow us to share your data with marketers" clauses into their informed consent forms.
...no, really, I've actually seen them. Right in there with the stuff about allowing them to send test samples to outside labs for analysis. They seem to phrase it so you think you're allowing them to submit your data to your insurer for automatic claims processing, but it also allows them to sell your info to marketing companies.
I started paying attention when my father saw an audiologist at a hospital, and the very next week started receiving ads from hearing-aid companies (which had never sent him an ad before in his life). Same thing with my mother and blood pressure medication companies -- see a doc, a week later start getting targeted ads.
posted by aramaic at 7:25 AM on April 12, 2007
...no, really, I've actually seen them. Right in there with the stuff about allowing them to send test samples to outside labs for analysis. They seem to phrase it so you think you're allowing them to submit your data to your insurer for automatic claims processing, but it also allows them to sell your info to marketing companies.
I started paying attention when my father saw an audiologist at a hospital, and the very next week started receiving ads from hearing-aid companies (which had never sent him an ad before in his life). Same thing with my mother and blood pressure medication companies -- see a doc, a week later start getting targeted ads.
posted by aramaic at 7:25 AM on April 12, 2007
If you really want some OutrageFilter, read some of the comments on the BBC story:
From a man (go figure):
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:27 AM on April 12, 2007
From a man (go figure):
Study after study has shown that women during their menstrual cycle have roughly twice the reaction times to unexpected incidents as people, men or women, who are at the drink driving limit. Clearly this is of concern to every right thinking person, or at least it should be. The question is when will I be able to sue a company that DOESN'T ask these questions of its female employees? Customer safety and service comes first so let's put the PC nonsense behind us and concentrate on the facts.To which I say WHAT? Come on, everybody knows men think about sex every seven seconds, so how can we trust them with customer safety and service?
It is a known fact that MOST women are extremely cantankerous, obnoxious, impatient, highly nervous, and loose tempers instantly for a portion of their menstrual times monthly. Benefits from knowing menstrual cycle data could be:Oh yes, the ol' "getting special privileges while bleedy" excuse. Gotta love that one. My personal favorite reply to this question, ever, came from Mimi Smartypants:
- Don't fire her for a strange overreaction, as it was during her menstrual time. At other times she is an excellent employee.
- Rate her objectively on the annual evaluation and overlook those menstrual days.
- Don't send her on official trips during that time.
Northwestern is a teaching hospital, so I got to put up with multiple residents asking me the same questions in the preoperative suite. They were all young guys, and I got sick of answering the question "What was the date of your last menstrual period?" with a staid, "Um, it's going on now" (which it was), so to the last resident who asked I replied with a chirpy "Currently flowing, sir!" I think I scared him.Everyone who gets asked a question like this should do something similar, or resort to extremely graphic, visual descriptions as recommended by another (female) BBC commenter.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:27 AM on April 12, 2007
bitter-girl.com, the second quote of yours does have a point right? There's no need for policymakers to be blind idealogues and insist that women and men respond the same ways to the same stimuli if they're wired differently.
litfit, the flipside is to offer similar amounts of paternity leave as maternity leave, an option I'm partial to. If you're going to ask that men and women work the same way in the workplace you should offer them a chance to be equal partners in the family too…
posted by Firas at 10:50 AM on April 12, 2007
litfit, the flipside is to offer similar amounts of paternity leave as maternity leave, an option I'm partial to. If you're going to ask that men and women work the same way in the workplace you should offer them a chance to be equal partners in the family too…
posted by Firas at 10:50 AM on April 12, 2007
I hear bears are attracted to menstruating women.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:30 PM on April 12, 2007
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:30 PM on April 12, 2007
Firas, how can you not find the quote "It is a known fact that MOST women are extremely cantankerous, obnoxious, impatient, highly nervous, and loose tempers instantly for a portion of their menstrual times monthly." offensive?
Sheesh. It IS a known fact that I am extremely cantankerous, obnoxious, and impatient before, say, the morning coffee is done brewing. It is NOT a known fact that "most" women are any of these things due solely to their period.
So yes, there is a point to my quoting it, namely that it is obnoxious, patently offensive and untrue. I'm not discounting the fact that some women are unduly affected by their menstrual cycle, I know plenty of women who are debilitated every month by cramps, etc. But to ask ALL women to provide this information, just in case or whatever dumbassed reason they had in mind? That is mindbogglingly stupid.
Unless you're a member of the Indian Federal Bear Wrestling Squad, because Astro Zombie's got that one right.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:20 PM on April 12, 2007
Sheesh. It IS a known fact that I am extremely cantankerous, obnoxious, and impatient before, say, the morning coffee is done brewing. It is NOT a known fact that "most" women are any of these things due solely to their period.
So yes, there is a point to my quoting it, namely that it is obnoxious, patently offensive and untrue. I'm not discounting the fact that some women are unduly affected by their menstrual cycle, I know plenty of women who are debilitated every month by cramps, etc. But to ask ALL women to provide this information, just in case or whatever dumbassed reason they had in mind? That is mindbogglingly stupid.
Unless you're a member of the Indian Federal Bear Wrestling Squad, because Astro Zombie's got that one right.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:20 PM on April 12, 2007
Firas, that's the sanest thing I've read all day. No matter how much I do, though, my partner's taking a heavy hit for the family for the first two years if we do have kids.
posted by litfit at 5:01 PM on April 12, 2007
posted by litfit at 5:01 PM on April 12, 2007
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posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:27 PM on April 11, 2007 [1 favorite]