Not just for hanging on the doorknob

May 26, 2007 10:55 AM

How to tie a Prince Albert. Or, a four-in-hand, a full Windsor, a bowtie, an ascot, and a few others to suit your particular fancy/fetish.
posted by psmealey (77 comments total)

I call bullshit. The laws of physics prevent the possibility of correctly tying a bowtie.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 11:03 AM on May 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

Heh, as a student I had to tie a bowtie to go with the white tie dress code for going to a students ball. Great fun.
posted by jouke at 11:06 AM on May 26, 2007

Until I realised you were talking about ties, I was rather taken aback at the idea of tying a prince albert.
posted by rhymer at 11:06 AM on May 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

Good... i'm being a groomsman soon and I don't want to have to ask the other guys for help. Thanks for this little resource.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 11:08 AM on May 26, 2007

As if I'm going to take sartorial advice from someone who wears button-down collars.
posted by chrismear at 11:10 AM on May 26, 2007 [3 favorites]

The ascot is my personal favorite, but when was the last time I saw someone wearing an ascot?
posted by heatherbeth at 11:15 AM on May 26, 2007

Clearly you didn't come to Lord Hawkley-Smythe's regatta, heatherbeth!
posted by jonson at 11:21 AM on May 26, 2007

Robert Redford in Gatsby? I like them too, but I don't think I have ever actually seen anyone try to pull it off in public.
posted by psmealey at 11:22 AM on May 26, 2007

I remember my always impeccably dressed Grandfather teaching me how to tie a full windsor before I started high school (even the girls had to wear ties with the school uniform).

It's a skill I maintain to this day - and has actually come in handy sometimes.
posted by gomichild at 11:30 AM on May 26, 2007

Full windsor is awesome. Tying a bowtie isn't actually that hard; it just takes practice. Plus, it looks a hell of a lot better than those awful pre-tied ties.
posted by kdar at 11:35 AM on May 26, 2007

I'm a fan of the full Windsor (which I always believed was called the "double Windsor"). The Wikipedia article on the knot claims that James Bond refers to the Windsor as "the mark of a cad" in one of the Fleming novels.
posted by the_bone at 11:35 AM on May 26, 2007

I always tied the half-windsor, which takes about two seconds, and I'm not sure I fully understand what the benefit of all those extra steps is.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:46 AM on May 26, 2007

Thanks, dad.
posted by chuckdarwin at 11:51 AM on May 26, 2007

However compared to tying an obi some of this pales in comparison...
posted by gomichild at 11:51 AM on May 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

In the Netherlands the Windsor tie became popular in the eighties. To me it still is a kind of obnoxious 'power-tie' that only tasteless upstarts would wear.
I prefer the slightly asymmetric prince Albert, it's more refined I think. Although the half-Windsor, which is also asymmetric, would be fine too I guess.
Since I'm quite tall tie-knots have a tendency to become horrible small shoe-lace like. So I give the knot one more twist during tying to give it more body.
posted by jouke at 11:52 AM on May 26, 2007

I always tied the half-windsor, which takes about two seconds, and I'm not sure I fully understand what the benefit of all those extra steps is.

The extra steps gives you a sexier knot.
posted by gomichild at 11:52 AM on May 26, 2007

An hour on the Front Page and nobody has asked yet if they have Prince Albert in a can? You people are slipping!!!
posted by wendell at 11:53 AM on May 26, 2007

Oh dear jouke and I are knot in agreement!

Right I am definitely off to bed now.
posted by gomichild at 11:54 AM on May 26, 2007

if the Windsor is "the mark of a cad" Then Columbian Necktie must be the mark of a dirty, doublecrossing, dime-dropping Fredo Iscariot.
posted by isopraxis at 11:54 AM on May 26, 2007

(even the girls had to wear ties with the school uniform)

High school girls... in uniforms... with ties?!

That's hot.
posted by papakwanz at 12:03 PM on May 26, 2007

gomichild: Oh dear jouke and I are knot in agreement!
Yes, dear?
posted by jouke at 12:11 PM on May 26, 2007

Related: Tie-a-tie.net
posted by blue_beetle at 12:22 PM on May 26, 2007

No bolos?
posted by Frank Grimes at 12:24 PM on May 26, 2007

This is fantastic psmealey, thanks for the post.
posted by folktrash at 12:38 PM on May 26, 2007

When I think of ascots it makes me remember a guy that I met at a pub in Pasadena in the late 80s. He introduced himself as Sam Winston, Jr., the son of Sam Winston the Tire Mogul. He wore an ascot under a blazer and smoked a pipe. He was barely 21, if that. I called him Thurston all night. He didn't get it.
posted by miss lynnster at 12:38 PM on May 26, 2007

BTW, I used to have to wear a tie when I was a waitress. To this day I can't tie someone else's tie for them unless I imagine I'm tying it for myself from the other direction.
posted by miss lynnster at 12:40 PM on May 26, 2007

Can I just say that all the knots in this FPP look exactly the same to me?


Can someone explain to a reprehensible cad such as myself how these are supposed to be any different?



And for the love of Thor, who still wears ascots nowadays, aside from tall blonde guys at the Annual Scooby-Doo Convention?
posted by Avenger at 12:42 PM on May 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

I can tie a mean half windsor, but never could master the full windsor. But I've learned to accept my shortcomings.
posted by vronsky at 12:54 PM on May 26, 2007

Fabulous. I used to tie a Windsor knot in my school tie, preposterous micro-fop that I was. No one ever noticed, except a certain Latin teacher, a compliment from whom was always unwelcome.

I called him Thurston all night. He didn't get it.

Completely irrelevant, and referring to a very different Thurston, but a lyric that's always stuck in my head is the Yummy Fur's dismissal of British indie bands who adopt a mid-Atlantic brogue: "I'm not American/Don't call me Thurston/I like my accent!"
posted by jack_mo at 12:59 PM on May 26, 2007

The four-in-hand always looks like crap. I learned that one from the (I think) Bear book in Cub Scouts. As soon as I could I learned the Windsor.

The irony of all this is I now wear a tie maybe once or twice a year at most. But I look good.
posted by tommasz at 1:01 PM on May 26, 2007

Can someone explain to a reprehensible cad such as myself how these are supposed to be any different?

The full Windsor has a perceptible heft, an ever-so-slightly decadent thickness, when compared to a four-in-hand. But as I say, the only people likely to notice are elderly ephebophile Latinists.
posted by jack_mo at 1:03 PM on May 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

The colourful ascots as shown worn beneath a shirt are horrible. But the similar silver grey tie that's worn outside of a shirt with a morning-coat, mostly at a wedding, is stylish.
Is that called an Ascot too? It's called a plastron in German and Dutch.

And of course there's the pocket square. I've learned from wikipedia that we wore reversed puffs at university.

From the wikipedia article:
In the US for instance, the Crips gang use blue handkerchiefs, and their rivals, the Bloods, use red, wearing the bandanas in various manners though generally not in the breast pocket of a jacket.
posted by jouke at 1:04 PM on May 26, 2007

how do British guys get those massive tie knots? do the ties not narrow as much as normal ties, or do they just do it up so loosely that end is somewhere near their nipples?
posted by krunk at 1:05 PM on May 26, 2007

Can someone explain to a reprehensible cad such as myself how these are supposed to be any different?

The full Windsor has a perceptible heft, an ever-so-slightly decadent thickness, when compared to a four-in-hand.

The 'heft' or 'thickness' can be achieved using other knots by making an extra twist. The Prince Albert f.i. makes an extra twist compared to the four in hand which indeed looks a lot better.
Good ties contain a thicker lining which makes the knot look better too.

But the full Windsor stands apart from the other knots in forming a perfectly symmetrical triangle.
posted by jouke at 1:11 PM on May 26, 2007

how do British guys get those massive tie knots?

Do you mean those really wide, shapeless knots? I'm not sure how they tie them, but it's a knot generally associated with footballers, particularly for court appearances. Not a style to emulate.
posted by Aloysius Bear at 1:23 PM on May 26, 2007

Don't forget the dimple.

God, I am so glad for all you gen-Xers, and the internet start-up boom of the 90's, who brought corporate casual to the East Coast stodgy firms. They had to change if they wanted to hire you. I can now go to work without a noose around my neck every day and I thank you.
posted by caddis at 1:27 PM on May 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

the cross-knot and half-windsor, as displayed, are mirrors of each other. but their descriptions both say to start with the broad end on the right. so these tutorials may not have been rigorously tested.

this knot-tying bible does not mention the cross-knot, so i'm going to the claim it's just a renamed mirror of the half-windsor.
posted by bruceo at 1:29 PM on May 26, 2007

I thought a half-windsor was a maneuver done in diving competitions. No wonder I never made the Olympic team.
posted by wendell at 1:51 PM on May 26, 2007

Btw; Aloysius Bear, now we're on the subject of foppishness, do I understand your pseudonym correctly as a reference to the works of Evelyn Waugh?
posted by jouke at 1:51 PM on May 26, 2007

If you are not of gigantic stature, and you do not tighten your tie very much, the full Windsor will end up approximately as big as your head. Especially if you like your ties made out of woven silk.

For me, the problem with the four-in-hand was twofold--the knot would slip, requiring frequent adjustment. It was a revelation to discover the half Windsor, which was not as big as my head and did not slip. It's stood me in good stead at ceremonies, job interviews, and meetings with fussier clients (though frankly I wouldn't mind wearing a tie more often).
posted by lackutrol at 1:57 PM on May 26, 2007

I'm surprised it took that many comments until The 85 Ways to Tie a Tie came up, courtesy of bruceo. One of its authors, Thomas Fink, has a webpage where the mathematically-minded can get an introduction to the findings of the book.

I use the Pratt all the time.
posted by sappidus at 1:57 PM on May 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

You do indeed, jouke. I regret my username choice horribly. First, it's rather pretentious, and I've decided I don't actually like Brideshead Revisited. Second, it's hypocritical, since I remember ruthlessly mocking a friend who, as a child, named her teddy bear Aloysius. Third, shortly after signing up I discovered a teddy bear name that makes 'Aloysius' look distinctly second-rate: John Betjeman's bear, who accompanied him to Oxford, bore the magnificent "Archibald Ormsby-Gore".
posted by Aloysius Bear at 2:10 PM on May 26, 2007 [2 favorites]

Huh. I've been tying a cross knot all these years, thanks to being left-handed.
posted by dw at 2:18 PM on May 26, 2007

Nice to learn about tie knotting, psmealey, knew about the Prince Albert, didn't know the name, and was always somewhat mystified by how men tied the other knots. Still don't understand the four-in-hand yet. Would have to see it done in person or a video.

How to tie a dhoti (traditional Hindu Indian men's sarong) video, kind of gently sexy. About the dhoti. Tying a long lungi and short lungi. About the lungi. Tying a turban. About the turban. Fun cute how to tie/put on a sari. About the sari.
posted by nickyskye at 2:58 PM on May 26, 2007 [3 favorites]

heatherbeth: when was the last time I saw someone wearing an ascot?

Paul Linde in the center square?
posted by zippy at 3:05 PM on May 26, 2007

Well that was educational. Twenty years ago my father taught me how to tie a tie and he called it a Windsor. I just discovered that it's actually a Prince Albert. Then again, Dad never claimed to be an expert.
posted by cali at 3:27 PM on May 26, 2007

That's all well and good, but how do you tie a Fat Albert?
posted by dirigibleman at 3:49 PM on May 26, 2007

It'll be cool -or not- or maybe just distracting in the future, when they make ties or clothing using razor thin, flexible video screens. It would be kinda cool to have a men's shirt with collar and cuffs of video screen with matching or contrasting video tie.

Wonder if they'll wear ties in the future?
posted by nickyskye at 3:49 PM on May 26, 2007

Wonder if they'll wear ties in the future?

I kind of doubt it, sadly. As Kennedy liberated us from the tyranny of the hat, so I fear, has Ahmadinejad freed us from the hegemony of neckwear.

There have been so many other styles (the lace cravatte?) that have passed into extinction already. I was (pleasantly) surprised to see mention of the ascot, even though - in America at least - it's really more of an affectation than a fashion statement.
posted by psmealey at 3:59 PM on May 26, 2007

Those windsor knots are going to look foolish now that ties are thinner again. Stick with the half-windsor.
posted by wfc123 at 4:11 PM on May 26, 2007

psmealey, I am probably missing a joke there; as you probably know, the Iranian revolution of 1979 rejected the tie as "Western," and none of their government officials ever wear ties since then. Interestingly, they are apparently becoming relatively common again in Tehran among men who do not work for the government.

As much as I like Obama, his habit of wearing open-collared shirts without ties is an aspect of his image I don't really care for. Americans don't really need more encouragement to dress informally.

Of course I am just a big fuddy-duddy. You kids go ahead and wear yur crazy pegged pants and zoot suits.
posted by lackutrol at 4:16 PM on May 26, 2007

The half-windsor is definitely inferior as it's asymmetric.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:27 PM on May 26, 2007 [2 favorites]

And thinner ties make for a smaller and more elegant full-windsor, a knot that can be rather bulky on a wide tie.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:32 PM on May 26, 2007

I wore a Prince Albert tie to school, but I like the Windsor. Only thing is, I've got a really long torso, and if I tie one with a standard tie, I end up with my tie ending above my navel. I wonder if you can buy long ties?
posted by bonaldi at 4:37 PM on May 26, 2007

God, "tie" standing for a knotted cloth, the act of knotting the cloth and the piece of cloth you knot is confusing.
posted by bonaldi at 4:39 PM on May 26, 2007

I kind of doubt it, sadly. As Kennedy liberated us from the tyranny of the hat, so I fear, has Ahmadinejad freed us from the hegemony of neckwear.

Less of a liberation, more of an impoverishment to my mind. Whereas in the fifties, men had a rich sartorial repertoire available to them, today, that range has pretty well narrowed for most of the population to the baseball cap.

Oh for the days when you could reach on your hatstand, and select something that better reflected your style and mood. A homburg, perhaps? Or a Borsalino? In summer, a fine Panama?

Over the last few years, I've taken to acquiring fine hats -- as much as anything for the beautiful craftsmanship that goes into their manufacture. But I don't wear them very often at all, because these days it's rare to find an occasion for which it's appropriate. But the only time you'll ever catch me wearing a baseball cap is if you happen to see me playing baseball, ie. never.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:47 PM on May 26, 2007

If I understand the directions correctly, the "right" way I learned to tie a necktie is a full Windsor, which produces a nicely compact triangular knot. I'd also tried a Prince Albert but always thought they looked weird -- asymmetrical, as if somebody just threw on a tie without thinking about how the knot would look. On the rare occasions when I feel necktie-ish, I can still tie one without having to think about it.

The hard part with tying a tie, for me, has always been to get the lengths right. Ideally the wide end ought to be just at the belt line, and I usually had to test-tie a couple of times to get it adjusted.

You can buy longer ties, and I've been careless tie-shopping and wound up with a couple. Not a huge problem, since nearly all the ties I've bought for last decade came from thrift shops.
posted by pax digita at 5:06 PM on May 26, 2007

I remember my always impeccably dressed Grandfather teaching me how to tie a full windsor before I started high school (even the girls had to wear ties with the school uniform). It's a skill I maintain to this day - and has actually come in handy sometimes.

I know the feeling. I went to a similar over-pompous school for 6^th grade (I got the hell out after that) and had to know how to tie a full windsor. In my case it was my father, an attourney, who taught me. The only upside was that the school allowed us to bring our own ties if we didn't want the uniform ones, assuming they weren't offensive.

My father always had an impressive collection of unusual ties (strangely, every last one was silk - a tradition I uphold with all but my military dress uniform tie) so one day I'd walk in wearing Edvard Munsch's "The Scream", and the next it would be the periodic table. This actually had it's own side story, as the first time I wore the latter I had a chemistry pop-quiz on the elements from a teacher named Ms. Krypton!

Ahh, the memories...And I still know how to tie that full windsor.
posted by mystyk at 5:06 PM on May 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wonder if they'll wear ties in the future?

I'm thinking they will. Ties provide formality and gravity to an outfit. I like it when my doctor wears one, because to me it implies it's a serious field with serious people that I pay serious money for.

OTOH, ties are increasingly becoming stodgy. We don't smoke pipes, drink brandy, or wear French collars or tweed coats anymore. So maybe they will fade. I just know that people treat me differently when I wear a tie. Like I'm important. Or a git.
posted by dw at 6:18 PM on May 26, 2007

MetaEsquiremagazine
posted by longsleeves at 6:45 PM on May 26, 2007

i think a PA would hurt like hell
posted by shockingbluamp at 7:45 PM on May 26, 2007

The ascot is my personal favorite, but when was the last time I saw someone wearing an ascot?

There's a wonderful line in the film Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead:

Girl [after date]: Do you want to come in?

Boy: More than I want the Ascot to come back into style.
posted by dobbs at 8:07 PM on May 26, 2007

I went to a similar over-pompous school for 6th grade (I got the hell out after that) and had to know how to tie a full windsor.

Actually mystyk I have a different perspective to you in that regard - uniforms are pretty standard in Australian schools, as well as in Japan for both state/public and private schools - so wearing a tie is not such a big deal.

As for the pompousity level of the school I went to - that's an interesting question. It was a state school with a long history and traditions and was seen as pompous by other state schools - but as a posh-wannabee by the private schools.
posted by gomichild at 8:47 PM on May 26, 2007

Great post. But I think to flesh it out a bit more, you need this site. They have the Balthus, the Cavendish, the Plattsburgh and more.

bruceo - I have that book! And I rarely wear ties anymore. Go figure...
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 8:49 PM on May 26, 2007

Much as I appreciate not needing ties anymore, corporate casual can get terribly boring. To the eyes of a late boomer, "corproate casual" looks exactly like what we called "school clothes", when I was a child.
posted by Goofyy at 12:24 AM on May 27, 2007

I forgot to add, school uniforms with jackets and ties look especially odd now that so many people only wear corporate casual.
posted by Goofyy at 12:25 AM on May 27, 2007

A related manskill.
posted by carsonb at 1:20 AM on May 27, 2007

We don't smoke pipes, drink brandy, or wear French collars or tweed coats anymore.

I'm not sure what a "French collar" is, but hey, I like my Calvados, my grey herringbone Harris overcoat, and Latakia or Virginia/Perique blends smoked in old briar pipes.
posted by pax digita at 3:56 AM on May 27, 2007

Dimple -- good or bad?
posted by teem at 5:00 AM on May 27, 2007

the knot without the dimple is a sign of a rank amateur
posted by caddis at 6:38 AM on May 27, 2007

Forget ties and hats, I want these to come back into fashion: Proper cravats
posted by h00py at 7:00 AM on May 27, 2007

Yes! This is my kind of post. What I want to know is when will women realize how sexy and cute they look wearing neck ties?
posted by weathermachine at 7:41 AM on May 27, 2007

You're obviously not going to enough schoolgirl disco nights.
posted by chrismear at 7:56 AM on May 27, 2007

You're obviously not going to enough schoolgirl disco nights.
I guess you're from the UK chrismear.
I saw such a thing once in London. Rather strange; going out and dressing up as children.
posted by jouke at 8:49 AM on May 27, 2007

Bonaldi - look for "extra long" ties, useful if you're tying a full Windsor or if (like me) you're over 6 feet tall. Helps to ensure that the tie doesn't end up so short that you look like you've owned it since you were 10. (Even then, I often end up with the thin end of the tie much, much shorter than the wide end - I usually put in a tie tack strategically placed to capture the tip of the thin end, preventing it from sneaking out if it is too short to tuck into the provided loop on the wide end.)
posted by caution live frogs at 9:03 AM on May 27, 2007

I’m an exclusive Pratt-Shelby man myself, though the Oriental knot works well if you’re in a rush. Something about wearing a tie with the seam out around the neck makes me feel subversive.
posted by ijoshua at 7:09 PM on May 27, 2007

Ah, ijoshua I was wondering when somebody would introduce the king of knots, The Pratt-Shelby.

10 times easier than other knots and it shortens the tie less if you are a taller gentleman with a large neck.
posted by Megafly at 3:14 PM on May 29, 2007