YouTube: Korean Missionaries in Afghanistan
July 26, 2007 10:30 AM Subscribe
Formerly 23, now 22 Korean Christian missionaries have been taken hostage in Afghanistan. The group's leader and pastor was killed on his 42nd birthday. Hostages have been taken before in Afghanistan, but a video on YouTube, perhaps connected with the missionaries, has been creating a stir. Here.
Uncle Darwin & his double-barreled Evolver.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 10:37 AM on July 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 10:37 AM on July 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
Uh, just the photographs of the leader/pastor, nothing else.
posted by suedehead at 10:40 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by suedehead at 10:40 AM on July 26, 2007
On retrospect, that might have been a bad link choice.
posted by suedehead at 10:41 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by suedehead at 10:41 AM on July 26, 2007
Huh? Harshly damning? Who's damned? The girls? The Korean missionaries? How does a lack of context make this damning? No comprendo amigo.
posted by Mister_A at 10:42 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by Mister_A at 10:42 AM on July 26, 2007
Oh my God. Iraqis speaking Korean. Two-thirds of the Axis of Evil in one room.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:43 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:43 AM on July 26, 2007
Yo, why are all these arabs called Al? Al Kider, Al J. Zera, and so forth?
posted by Mister_A at 10:46 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by Mister_A at 10:46 AM on July 26, 2007
This morning on NPR there was a surprisingly good interview with a relative of the dead guy (brother of a brother-in-law, or something like that). It is 4+ minutes, but worth a listen. Spoiler: He isn't supportive.
posted by found missing at 10:47 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by found missing at 10:47 AM on July 26, 2007
Al means "The" in Arabic. Al Jazeera means "The Peninsula", Al Quada means "The foundation/base/database/etc"
posted by delmoi at 10:49 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by delmoi at 10:49 AM on July 26, 2007
Huh? Harshly damning? Who's damned? The girls? The Korean missionaries? How does a lack of context make this damning? No comprendo amigo.
Mister_A, perhaps more like 'incriminating'. I mean, I really do hope the remaning missionaries return safe and sound, but it really doesn't look very good, no matter which way you look at it.
posted by suedehead at 10:52 AM on July 26, 2007
Mister_A, perhaps more like 'incriminating'. I mean, I really do hope the remaning missionaries return safe and sound, but it really doesn't look very good, no matter which way you look at it.
posted by suedehead at 10:52 AM on July 26, 2007
I can assure you the poor victims in the video have NO IDEA what they are saying. A big FUCK YOU to these missionaries. I don't condone hostage taking and murder, but I can understand where the motivation comes from.
Christian missionaries need to understand that the Muslim reactionaries are much more hardcore than they are, that Allah is bigger and more brutal than Jesus, and that there is no chance in hell that they can replace the ugly dogma that is currently there with their own brand of bullshit.
It also makes me sick that in many cases the missionaries pretend they are English teachers or aid workers. I am willing to bet these kids ended up in that room with a promise to their parents of a meal, some clothes, and "learning Korean music".
I suppose I am a hypocrite to some extent, though. My work in Afghanistan is also missionary work, but I am trying to spread critical thought, education, human rights, individualism and liberalism. But at least I don't pretend that isn't what I am doing, or make people do things they don't understand or don't want to do.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:54 AM on July 26, 2007 [6 favorites]
Christian missionaries need to understand that the Muslim reactionaries are much more hardcore than they are, that Allah is bigger and more brutal than Jesus, and that there is no chance in hell that they can replace the ugly dogma that is currently there with their own brand of bullshit.
It also makes me sick that in many cases the missionaries pretend they are English teachers or aid workers. I am willing to bet these kids ended up in that room with a promise to their parents of a meal, some clothes, and "learning Korean music".
I suppose I am a hypocrite to some extent, though. My work in Afghanistan is also missionary work, but I am trying to spread critical thought, education, human rights, individualism and liberalism. But at least I don't pretend that isn't what I am doing, or make people do things they don't understand or don't want to do.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:54 AM on July 26, 2007 [6 favorites]
They definitely deserve a beheading for that. While they are at it they should behead that brainwashing bitch that made me sing "Father Abraham" all those times.
The power that her organ-operating, Mary-Kay selling voice held over us was astounding! ASTOUNDING!
I still fall into robotic lockstep when I hear the imbedded trigger words:
Father Abraham had many sons;
Many sons had Father Abraham.
I am one of them;
And so are you;
So let's just praise the Lord!
posted by Pollomacho at 10:55 AM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
The power that her organ-operating, Mary-Kay selling voice held over us was astounding! ASTOUNDING!
I still fall into robotic lockstep when I hear the imbedded trigger words:
Father Abraham had many sons;
Many sons had Father Abraham.
I am one of them;
And so are you;
So let's just praise the Lord!
posted by Pollomacho at 10:55 AM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Remember when the United States invaded Afghanistan and defeated the Taliban?
Yeah, me either. Pretty impressive that a bunch of religious wackos survived an all-out assault by the world's lone superpower. I'm not sure if this means that the United States military is completely hollow, or that the Taliban are fucking badasses.
posted by mullingitover at 10:55 AM on July 26, 2007
Yeah, me either. Pretty impressive that a bunch of religious wackos survived an all-out assault by the world's lone superpower. I'm not sure if this means that the United States military is completely hollow, or that the Taliban are fucking badasses.
posted by mullingitover at 10:55 AM on July 26, 2007
Pollomacho-- you just sent shivers up my spine. I remember hosting an English Festival in Korea during my brief stint as an ESL teacher there, and when a group of kids started singing that song... I. Was. Livid. It was pure brainwashing, nothing less.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:01 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:01 AM on July 26, 2007
The invasion in Afghanistan could have ended differently. Poor planning, greed, and a monumental lack of cultural understanding or a willingness to put in the work required to rebuild a country destroyed it.
I think modern Americans have forgotten what it's like to have a war on US soil. A real war--Pearl Harbor and 9/11, while terrible tragedies, did not wreak the kind of devastation that extended battles and changing enemy and allied positions do. We've not faced the things Iraq or Afghanistan or Europe or most other countries in the world have faced. We've lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers over the past 100 years to wars on foreign soil, but our cities haven't been leveled, we haven't had riots in the streets, and we've never undergone occupation. We haven't had civilian casualties the way countries actually seeing battles have.
We're lucky, but it also means anyone who was born in the past 100 years and hasn't gone over and participated in WWI or II or Korea or Vietnam or any of those struggles doesn't have a real appreciation for the gut-punch costs of war beyond the military sacrifices.
Well, that's completely off-topic. I don't support the Korean missionaries probable method of having Afghanistani kids chant prayers in a language they don't understand. But they sure as hell don't deserve kidnapping and death.
posted by Anonymous at 11:06 AM on July 26, 2007
I think modern Americans have forgotten what it's like to have a war on US soil. A real war--Pearl Harbor and 9/11, while terrible tragedies, did not wreak the kind of devastation that extended battles and changing enemy and allied positions do. We've not faced the things Iraq or Afghanistan or Europe or most other countries in the world have faced. We've lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers over the past 100 years to wars on foreign soil, but our cities haven't been leveled, we haven't had riots in the streets, and we've never undergone occupation. We haven't had civilian casualties the way countries actually seeing battles have.
We're lucky, but it also means anyone who was born in the past 100 years and hasn't gone over and participated in WWI or II or Korea or Vietnam or any of those struggles doesn't have a real appreciation for the gut-punch costs of war beyond the military sacrifices.
Well, that's completely off-topic. I don't support the Korean missionaries probable method of having Afghanistani kids chant prayers in a language they don't understand. But they sure as hell don't deserve kidnapping and death.
posted by Anonymous at 11:06 AM on July 26, 2007
There are very few things in life that warrant being kidnapped and shot to death. Missionary work, though obnoxious, is not one of those things.
posted by chunking express at 11:10 AM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by chunking express at 11:10 AM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
Praise Jesus! May all these committable Xian missionaries be martyred in testament to their deep and abiding faith in the Holy Bible, even if they are Korean! Verily, verily, God is Love!
posted by davy at 11:17 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by davy at 11:17 AM on July 26, 2007
Wait we don't care about people being brutally murdered if they're missionaries?
posted by shakespeherian at 11:21 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by shakespeherian at 11:21 AM on July 26, 2007
I think it's more that they've purposefully inserted themselves into a situation where religion is war by other means, kind of like terrorism. In a country which has been invaded by Christians, people trying to convert others are obvious targets. It's not as though it makes it any less horrific that they have been taken hostage and their leader killed, but there are levels of surprise, outrage, and disgust that diminish when someone has purposefully put themselves in a situation where they are, essentially, warriors of faith.
posted by cell divide at 11:26 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by cell divide at 11:26 AM on July 26, 2007
One of the the basic tenets of Xianity is that a good Christian must be willing to suffer and die as Jesus did. Judaism also values one's willingness to die "to sanctify The Name of G_d." What, you thought only Islam loves martyrs? Where do you think they got that?
Surely missionaries to a "heathen" country run by fanatics who hate them understand what they're getting into, right? And surely they're prepared for the worst, to pray as they suffer? If they're not up for maryrdom they should stay in their own countries and go bowling.
posted by davy at 11:27 AM on July 26, 2007
Surely missionaries to a "heathen" country run by fanatics who hate them understand what they're getting into, right? And surely they're prepared for the worst, to pray as they suffer? If they're not up for maryrdom they should stay in their own countries and go bowling.
posted by davy at 11:27 AM on July 26, 2007
suedehead, this video seems to implicate some Korean folks in performing missionary work. That is not "incriminating", though I am no fan of the missionary brand of cultural imperialism. When you go around saying things like, "My buddies and I have captured this band of hapless people and we're going to kill them unless our demands are met", that's a fairly incriminating statement.
More simply:
Kidnappers/murderers= bad people
Kaptured Koreans = hapless schmucks
posted by Mister_A at 11:28 AM on July 26, 2007
More simply:
Kidnappers/murderers= bad people
Kaptured Koreans = hapless schmucks
posted by Mister_A at 11:28 AM on July 26, 2007
It's important to note that many have been denying that the Koreans were there as missionaries. Also, there have been many in Korea outraged by a photograph that appeared to depict a Korean Christian holding up a cross and placing his hand on the head of a Buddhist alms-seeker. This has led some Koreans to email the Taliban (which seems odd) and encourage the beheading of the missionaries.
So Korea seems to have a lot of people with Fred Phelps-like instincts when it comes to human life.
posted by allen.spaulding at 11:32 AM on July 26, 2007
So Korea seems to have a lot of people with Fred Phelps-like instincts when it comes to human life.
posted by allen.spaulding at 11:32 AM on July 26, 2007
This is pretty rich though—Afghani provincial governor from the WaPo article:
"Keeping women as captives has not happened in Afghanistan's history. They should release the women," the governor said.
Not held captive? Getting stoned for not wearing a bee-keeper's get-up is not being held captive?
posted by Mister_A at 11:32 AM on July 26, 2007
"Keeping women as captives has not happened in Afghanistan's history. They should release the women," the governor said.
Not held captive? Getting stoned for not wearing a bee-keeper's get-up is not being held captive?
posted by Mister_A at 11:32 AM on July 26, 2007
There are very few things in life that warrant being kidnapped and shot to death. Missionary work, though obnoxious, is not one of those things.
Agreed. Anyone who says they deserved this fate is a soulless bastard. But the situation is a lot more complicated than that. For whatever reason, Korean missionaries tend to be extremely aggressive and seem to place proselytizing over concern for personal safety. These folks weren't just tempting fate, they were actively courting tragedy. found missing's NPR link should make that abundantly clear.
The nearest analogy I can reach for here is how I feel whenever I hear that a mountain climber has died. For murky, personal reasons, these people took an incredible risk and are now suffering the consequences. The US and Korean governments ought to be doing more to prevent this sort of thing.
posted by felix betachat at 11:36 AM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
Agreed. Anyone who says they deserved this fate is a soulless bastard. But the situation is a lot more complicated than that. For whatever reason, Korean missionaries tend to be extremely aggressive and seem to place proselytizing over concern for personal safety. These folks weren't just tempting fate, they were actively courting tragedy. found missing's NPR link should make that abundantly clear.
The nearest analogy I can reach for here is how I feel whenever I hear that a mountain climber has died. For murky, personal reasons, these people took an incredible risk and are now suffering the consequences. The US and Korean governments ought to be doing more to prevent this sort of thing.
posted by felix betachat at 11:36 AM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
The civilized thing to do is to run them out of town on a rail, not behead them. That said, I retire from this lousy discussion of a lousy post.
posted by Mister_A at 11:40 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by Mister_A at 11:40 AM on July 26, 2007
Expecting "civilized" behavior from Muslim fanatics is about as futile as expecting prudence from Xian ones. (Or in this case pity from a cynical atheist.)
posted by davy at 11:44 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by davy at 11:44 AM on July 26, 2007
I'd rather see more of Lindsay Lohan's luscious breasts. Are they all real?
posted by davy at 11:47 AM on July 26, 2007
posted by davy at 11:47 AM on July 26, 2007
suedehead, this video seems to implicate some Korean folks in performing missionary work. That is not "incriminating", though I am no fan of the missionary brand of cultural imperialism.
Okay, again, maybe bad word choice. But:
Some person, in Afghanistan, is making a group of young, presumably innocent kids chant Christian words in Korean saying I know the love of Jesus, I know the love of Jesus, Amen, Amen, I am clean now, born anew, etc etc. The voice has a very teacher-like, preachy tone ("repeat after me, one more time"). The camera's filming from above these kids, looking down on them, and it seems as if all of them are girls. At no point do you see any Koreans, not even the subject of the voice. The camera continuously rotates around, like it's trying to shoot a documentary, the girls keep on looking up into the camera, and the sheer difference in height and the fact that they're crouching makes these kids seem young and vulnerable.
In many ways, it's the worst possible video of "peaceful Korean missionaries in Afghanistan".
That's what I meant by 'incriminating': it seems to make any viewer reach the worst conclusions. Anyone learned enough in terms of politics, or interactions with other cultures, or just how to deal with kids -- anyone rational, in any country or culture, will probably look at this video and think, I can't believe they did what they did, considering Afghanistan is a war zone, that these kids are clearly young, etc etc etc etc etc.
posted by suedehead at 12:01 PM on July 26, 2007
Okay, again, maybe bad word choice. But:
Some person, in Afghanistan, is making a group of young, presumably innocent kids chant Christian words in Korean saying I know the love of Jesus, I know the love of Jesus, Amen, Amen, I am clean now, born anew, etc etc. The voice has a very teacher-like, preachy tone ("repeat after me, one more time"). The camera's filming from above these kids, looking down on them, and it seems as if all of them are girls. At no point do you see any Koreans, not even the subject of the voice. The camera continuously rotates around, like it's trying to shoot a documentary, the girls keep on looking up into the camera, and the sheer difference in height and the fact that they're crouching makes these kids seem young and vulnerable.
In many ways, it's the worst possible video of "peaceful Korean missionaries in Afghanistan".
That's what I meant by 'incriminating': it seems to make any viewer reach the worst conclusions. Anyone learned enough in terms of politics, or interactions with other cultures, or just how to deal with kids -- anyone rational, in any country or culture, will probably look at this video and think, I can't believe they did what they did, considering Afghanistan is a war zone, that these kids are clearly young, etc etc etc etc etc.
posted by suedehead at 12:01 PM on July 26, 2007
Are these missionaries "ordinary" Christians or are they Moonies? And what's the point of making Afghan kids chant in Korean?
posted by davy at 12:07 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by davy at 12:07 PM on July 26, 2007
It was pure brainwashing, nothing less.
because singing children are always a sign of brainwashing.
"MY HUMPS MY HUMPS!"
posted by quonsar at 12:11 PM on July 26, 2007
because singing children are always a sign of brainwashing.
"MY HUMPS MY HUMPS!"
posted by quonsar at 12:11 PM on July 26, 2007
Brainwashing people is best done in their own language anyway.
posted by davy at 12:13 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by davy at 12:13 PM on July 26, 2007
Yo, why are all these arabs called Al? Al Kider, Al J. Zera, and so forth?
Muslims are huge Paul Simon fans.
Also, Afghans aren't Arabs.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:18 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Suedehead, I take it you've never been to bible school. What you are looking at is an amateur video done of an amateur bible school activity. The kids do not know what they are saying, much less understand the deeper sentiments expressed, but regardless, they don't care, they get to sing songs and play games! There might even be candy and treats!
The rotating camera is because the camera operator is bad. The voice is from someone not pictured, we don't know if it is the camera-person. The clip is taken totally out of context.
Incidentally, "knowing the love of Jesus" could be a Muslim sentiment as well. Jesus is a prophet, a very highly respected and revered prophet.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:26 PM on July 26, 2007
The rotating camera is because the camera operator is bad. The voice is from someone not pictured, we don't know if it is the camera-person. The clip is taken totally out of context.
Incidentally, "knowing the love of Jesus" could be a Muslim sentiment as well. Jesus is a prophet, a very highly respected and revered prophet.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:26 PM on July 26, 2007
I don't like the Teacher's Head Getting Sawed Off game. Tell us again about the Loaves & Fishes.
posted by davy at 12:44 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by davy at 12:44 PM on July 26, 2007
In my worldview, proselytization to children or those who do not 'consent' to it is a form of inhuman and degrading treatment, which is equivalent to the definition of torture. How do I think torturers should be treated? Well, frankly I won't jump to defend those that are lined up in a firing squad. At the same time, I would not advocate that they be shot. I do believe some form of punishment is warranted (whether public shaming, social ostracism, or something more punitive is for another discussion), and may well be sanctioned under Afghan law. I don't think kidnapping or killing is the humane thing to do. Were I South Korean, however, I would not want a single won of my taxpayer money expended on getting them released.
Pollomacho, while Jesus was a prophet, there is nothing about knowing his 'love' in the Muslim tradition. Nice try. That concept of his love is inextricably linked to the Christian notion of the holy trinity: that Jesus is the filial embodiment of God.
posted by Azaadistani at 12:47 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Pollomacho, while Jesus was a prophet, there is nothing about knowing his 'love' in the Muslim tradition. Nice try. That concept of his love is inextricably linked to the Christian notion of the holy trinity: that Jesus is the filial embodiment of God.
posted by Azaadistani at 12:47 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Wow, davy. You're clocking in at 7/37 comments in this thread. I'm guessing the harmonic convergence of death, ideology and religion is working you over like Mexican food in a colon cancer patient. Time for a pepto, maybe?
posted by felix betachat at 12:51 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by felix betachat at 12:51 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
In my worldview, proselytization to children or those who do not 'consent' to it is a form of inhuman and degrading treatment, which is equivalent to the definition of torture.
Your worldview is idiotic.
posted by OmieWise at 12:56 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Your worldview is idiotic.
posted by OmieWise at 12:56 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
It's funny because the rapture isn't even mentioned in the New Testament. It was invented by a Scottish minister in 1834.
posted by parmanparman at 12:56 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by parmanparman at 12:56 PM on July 26, 2007
"Wow, davy. You're clocking in at 7/37 comments in this thread."
I've got my work cut out for me.
posted by davy at 12:58 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
I've got my work cut out for me.
posted by davy at 12:58 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Pollomacho, although I'm not Christian, I have been to bible study groups, and more specifically, to Korean bible study groups. I understand and recognize that this stuff is normal in that context -- but see, this isn't that context. This isn't Korea, this is (apparently) Afghanistan, those kids aren't Korean and don't understand the language, and that changes so many things.
It doesn't matter whether the camera operator is bad or what not -- my point is, intentionally or not (I'm pretty certain it was unintentional), it's a video that makes that group look pretty bad. It has all the techniques and all the elements that I would use if I were to make a "portray-this-missionary-group-in-a-bad-light" video. Roving camera from above? Check. Young girls, crouching on the floor? Check. Can't see any of the missionaries? Check. Disembodied, preachy voice? Check.
posted by suedehead at 1:14 PM on July 26, 2007
It doesn't matter whether the camera operator is bad or what not -- my point is, intentionally or not (I'm pretty certain it was unintentional), it's a video that makes that group look pretty bad. It has all the techniques and all the elements that I would use if I were to make a "portray-this-missionary-group-in-a-bad-light" video. Roving camera from above? Check. Young girls, crouching on the floor? Check. Can't see any of the missionaries? Check. Disembodied, preachy voice? Check.
posted by suedehead at 1:14 PM on July 26, 2007
I've got my work cut out for me.
I see the new 'How-To MeFi' tutorial is up.
posted by IronLizard at 1:23 PM on July 26, 2007
I see the new 'How-To MeFi' tutorial is up.
posted by IronLizard at 1:23 PM on July 26, 2007
girls, crouching on the floor? Check. Can't see any of the missionaries? Check. Disembodied, preachy voice? Check.
You forgot Kool-aid.
posted by felix betachat at 1:24 PM on July 26, 2007
You forgot Kool-aid.
posted by felix betachat at 1:24 PM on July 26, 2007
I'm pretty sure you could take a selected minute long segment from my family picnic videos from 1985 and you could use it to portray my family as a satanic cult of roving child murderer/molesters. We may or may not actually be a cult of molesters, but a snippet of our video is not proof of that.
Really, I was raised in a very Christian home as the child of a minister and was forced to go to a hell of a lot of bible schools, Sunday schools, church camps, youth group meetings, and general evangelical mass orgies. Today I am pretty much cured of any desire to darken the door of a religious organization except for curiosity and to mock them, but really, honestly, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that seems to raise my suspicions in this tiny out of context clip.
If this were part of several hours of footage like this, I'd be right there with you. But as it is, it's simply a sliver. I'd bet instead you'd find a lot of story telling and singing, and maybe some activities where kids sit in a circle if you had the whole thing.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:36 PM on July 26, 2007
Really, I was raised in a very Christian home as the child of a minister and was forced to go to a hell of a lot of bible schools, Sunday schools, church camps, youth group meetings, and general evangelical mass orgies. Today I am pretty much cured of any desire to darken the door of a religious organization except for curiosity and to mock them, but really, honestly, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that seems to raise my suspicions in this tiny out of context clip.
If this were part of several hours of footage like this, I'd be right there with you. But as it is, it's simply a sliver. I'd bet instead you'd find a lot of story telling and singing, and maybe some activities where kids sit in a circle if you had the whole thing.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:36 PM on July 26, 2007
The US and Korean governments ought to be doing more to prevent this sort of thing.
Felix - what to do you mean by that? I'm not sure why it is a government's problem to prevent people from making poor choices. Or did I misunderstand?
posted by the_royal_we at 2:05 PM on July 26, 2007
Felix - what to do you mean by that? I'm not sure why it is a government's problem to prevent people from making poor choices. Or did I misunderstand?
posted by the_royal_we at 2:05 PM on July 26, 2007
It's funny because the rapture isn't even mentioned in the New Testament. It was invented by a Scottish minister in 1834.
Hmm. Not getting it. Did you mean "funny" in the davy's comments sense?
posted by yerfatma at 2:12 PM on July 26, 2007
Hmm. Not getting it. Did you mean "funny" in the davy's comments sense?
posted by yerfatma at 2:12 PM on July 26, 2007
Felix - what to do you mean by that? I'm not sure why it is a government's problem to prevent people from making poor choices.
In this case, I think it is. I mean, Afghanistan is effectively a NATO protectorate and the US is heavily involved in guaranteeing its security. Under these conditions, the government should be exercising rigorous control over the activities of foreigners in the country, especially where sensitive issues like religion are concerned. To continue the analogy I presented above, the government restricts access to wildlife areas which are threatened and to areas which pose a danger to those who are unprepared for them.
Why shouldn't the US, being aware of local sensitivities, be restricting foreign missionaries from plying their trade at such a volatile moment?
posted by felix betachat at 2:26 PM on July 26, 2007
In this case, I think it is. I mean, Afghanistan is effectively a NATO protectorate and the US is heavily involved in guaranteeing its security. Under these conditions, the government should be exercising rigorous control over the activities of foreigners in the country, especially where sensitive issues like religion are concerned. To continue the analogy I presented above, the government restricts access to wildlife areas which are threatened and to areas which pose a danger to those who are unprepared for them.
Why shouldn't the US, being aware of local sensitivities, be restricting foreign missionaries from plying their trade at such a volatile moment?
posted by felix betachat at 2:26 PM on July 26, 2007
I call this poem, “Check”:
Roving camera from above
Check
Young girls, crouching on the floor
Check
Can't see any of the missionaries
Check
Disembodied, preachy voice
Check.
posted by found missing at 2:28 PM on July 26, 2007
Roving camera from above
Check
Young girls, crouching on the floor
Check
Can't see any of the missionaries
Check
Disembodied, preachy voice
Check.
posted by found missing at 2:28 PM on July 26, 2007
The S. Korean government is in fact moving to make it a criminal act for its citizens to travel to any of a number of banned countries. Afghanistan will be one of them.
I understand it's mainly a way to prevent the missionaries from getting themselves in trouble in other Muslim countries and having the government come bail them out, as is happening here.
The missionaries in this case are not Moonies, but members of a Presbyterian church.
The group had apparently promised the Afghan government that it would do no proselytizing in the country, only operate aid facilities. If this is indeed their video, then they would seem to have broken that promise.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:54 PM on July 26, 2007
I understand it's mainly a way to prevent the missionaries from getting themselves in trouble in other Muslim countries and having the government come bail them out, as is happening here.
The missionaries in this case are not Moonies, but members of a Presbyterian church.
The group had apparently promised the Afghan government that it would do no proselytizing in the country, only operate aid facilities. If this is indeed their video, then they would seem to have broken that promise.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:54 PM on July 26, 2007
Because one of the few good things that the United States still stands for is religious freedom, and the primary bad thing that the Taliban stood for was religious oppression.
Woah there, Famous. Precisely whose religious freedom is being protected here? The Afghanis or the Koreans? We owe the former a lot. The latter, exactly nothing.
We also stand for free markets, would you be in favor of US industry moving wholesale and exploiting the raw materials of Afghanistan or Iraq? We also stand for the right to keep and bear arms, should that protection be extended to locations where US troops are active? We also stand for protection from unreasonable search and seizure, what does that mean in a war zone? etc etc.
Look, this is a gray area. Occupation means balancing the sensitivities of the occupied against the values and strategic objectives of the occupiers. I would argue that, when you have the risk of kidnapping and execution, you err on the side of extreme caution.
posted by felix betachat at 3:02 PM on July 26, 2007
Woah there, Famous. Precisely whose religious freedom is being protected here? The Afghanis or the Koreans? We owe the former a lot. The latter, exactly nothing.
We also stand for free markets, would you be in favor of US industry moving wholesale and exploiting the raw materials of Afghanistan or Iraq? We also stand for the right to keep and bear arms, should that protection be extended to locations where US troops are active? We also stand for protection from unreasonable search and seizure, what does that mean in a war zone? etc etc.
Look, this is a gray area. Occupation means balancing the sensitivities of the occupied against the values and strategic objectives of the occupiers. I would argue that, when you have the risk of kidnapping and execution, you err on the side of extreme caution.
posted by felix betachat at 3:02 PM on July 26, 2007
Thanks, Omie Wise ... I was kinda being flippant ... but in any event; I will never proselytize, and therefore am not in the unenviable soup these Jesu-luvvahs are. I think its fairly clear who has been idiotic in this case.
Felix Betachat: kudos to you, and your excellent point re: the 2nd and 4th amendments of the US Constitution.
Also, every occupying power (in this case NATO, or whichever country exercises control in the region in which these loonies were engaging in degrading treatment) is under international law obligations to act in a certain way. Not sure what the law of occupation says about encouraging or even permitting religious proselytization, but it could be a violation of international law (in addition to being utterly imprudent).
What these South Koreans have done is endangered every social worker, NGO-wallah, humanitarian aid person in a country that explicitly does not want proselytizers, who will now be viewed with increasing suspicion. And preying on children in a poor country to convert people to their ludicrous notion of a God who disappeared and re-appeared and in whose name the Christian right is advocating the extinction of all those who do not embrace Jesus (the rapture, Armageddon, etc), while invoking the protection of NATO forces really sends the right message, doesn't it? These proselytizers are mentally sick and need to be institutionalized rather than unleashed around the world.
posted by Azaadistani at 3:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Felix Betachat: kudos to you, and your excellent point re: the 2nd and 4th amendments of the US Constitution.
Also, every occupying power (in this case NATO, or whichever country exercises control in the region in which these loonies were engaging in degrading treatment) is under international law obligations to act in a certain way. Not sure what the law of occupation says about encouraging or even permitting religious proselytization, but it could be a violation of international law (in addition to being utterly imprudent).
What these South Koreans have done is endangered every social worker, NGO-wallah, humanitarian aid person in a country that explicitly does not want proselytizers, who will now be viewed with increasing suspicion. And preying on children in a poor country to convert people to their ludicrous notion of a God who disappeared and re-appeared and in whose name the Christian right is advocating the extinction of all those who do not embrace Jesus (the rapture, Armageddon, etc), while invoking the protection of NATO forces really sends the right message, doesn't it? These proselytizers are mentally sick and need to be institutionalized rather than unleashed around the world.
posted by Azaadistani at 3:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Look, seriously, in my opinion Korean Presbyterians have every right to go to Afghanistan and prosyletize, whether the local kids know a word of Korean or the missionaries of Pashtun or Dari. They just have to ready to be beheaded in the process; if not they should go home, or evangelize someplace safer like Provo or the South Bronx.
posted by davy at 3:33 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by davy at 3:33 PM on July 26, 2007
The World Famous: while you may argue that all Afghans should have the right to bear arms and be free from search and seizure, that is not something that the NATO forces are going to uphold. So why should they uphold the right of the unwanted, scheming South Koreans' right to free religious expression?
A major point here is that Afghanistan is under foreign occupation. These South Koreans are not asking their God to get them out of this mess (if he exists, he should work His miracles now), but the NATO forces. Were the South Koreans there while Afghanistan was a sovereign nation, the calculus would be different (though I still vehemently object to religious proselytization unless it is to convert the Godful into Godless unbelievers).
posted by Azaadistani at 3:34 PM on July 26, 2007
A major point here is that Afghanistan is under foreign occupation. These South Koreans are not asking their God to get them out of this mess (if he exists, he should work His miracles now), but the NATO forces. Were the South Koreans there while Afghanistan was a sovereign nation, the calculus would be different (though I still vehemently object to religious proselytization unless it is to convert the Godful into Godless unbelievers).
posted by Azaadistani at 3:34 PM on July 26, 2007
Why so obtuse, The World Famous? I am suggesting that the US has two, incompletely reconcilable obligations at work in Afghanistan. The first is custodianship: protecting Afghanis and preserving their culture and customs. The second is pursuing its own strategic aims: in this case, getting rid of the Taliban, rooting out Al Qaeda and attempting to (re)construct a stable, functional civil society.
On both counts, Korean missions fail the test. The locals obviously don't want them indoctrinating their children in exchange for a bowl of gruel. And their presence evidently adds to the sense that NATO forces are a Christian, crusader army, which makes it harder for the troops to do their job.
Can you not acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference between guaranteeing human rights in, say, Salt Lake City and guaranteeing them in Kabul? Even more importantly, the Koreans are exploiting these people ideologically. If you can't see that, there's something severely wrong with you.
posted by felix betachat at 3:35 PM on July 26, 2007
On both counts, Korean missions fail the test. The locals obviously don't want them indoctrinating their children in exchange for a bowl of gruel. And their presence evidently adds to the sense that NATO forces are a Christian, crusader army, which makes it harder for the troops to do their job.
Can you not acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference between guaranteeing human rights in, say, Salt Lake City and guaranteeing them in Kabul? Even more importantly, the Koreans are exploiting these people ideologically. If you can't see that, there's something severely wrong with you.
posted by felix betachat at 3:35 PM on July 26, 2007
I suspect that in addition to endangering themselves, the South Korean missionaries are also putting the lives of those children in jeopardy. If daddy lets his daughter go to a supposedly secular event, and she comes back spouting christian slogans, there's a non-zero probability of deadly retribution against the child, if not by their own father, but by their neighbors.
posted by nomisxid at 3:57 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by nomisxid at 3:57 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
"That was unforgivable fraud.
Even Jesus can't forgiveness."
"I agitate against Korean christianity group."
"Don't touch pure child of Afghanistan by dirty hands of person who eats pork!
"Afghan women is not debauchery like Korean women of Korean christianity group."
Aside from lots more golden quotes like the ones above, this blog (which is linked to on the YouTube page) has a lot of pictures of these missionary's activities in Afghanistan.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:07 PM on July 26, 2007
Even Jesus can't forgiveness."
"I agitate against Korean christianity group."
"Don't touch pure child of Afghanistan by dirty hands of person who eats pork!
"Afghan women is not debauchery like Korean women of Korean christianity group."
Aside from lots more golden quotes like the ones above, this blog (which is linked to on the YouTube page) has a lot of pictures of these missionary's activities in Afghanistan.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:07 PM on July 26, 2007
Ok, TWF, I get it. Your unshrinking insistence on the every person's full exercise of each and every right at all times in all places has won me over. Please, let me be the first to encourage you to carry this message of truth directly to the Afghanis themselves.
One suggestion: wear something with a loose collar.
posted by felix betachat at 4:08 PM on July 26, 2007
One suggestion: wear something with a loose collar.
posted by felix betachat at 4:08 PM on July 26, 2007
So Korea seems to have a lot of people with Fred Phelps-like instincts when it comes to human life.
Well, I'm quite sure how to parse that, but I will say that after 20 years of wandering around the world, and about 8 years total in Korea, I've never been anywhere where people are so unconcerned if someone has a different religious faith than their own, or none at all. There is a quite surprising acceptance of different faiths here, surprising and impressive given the xenophobic tendencies of other parts of the culture.
The exceptions to the let-it-be attitudes, if there are any, tend to be the evangelical Protestants here, who can be positively rabid, and are always zooming off on missionary trips to hellholes all over the planet.
A few interesting data points as background: about as many Koreans identify as 'Christian' as 'Buddhist' -- around 40%.
In common parlance, when Koreans say "Christian" they tend to mean Protestant only. Catholics are perceived as an almost entirely different faith.
The Protestant churches -- the majority -- are often, rightly, perceived as rich persons' social clubs. Many join up expressly to meet and rub shoulders with the right people -- not different from what happened in decades past in America or Canada, of course.
The Catholic church here allows Koreans to perform the chae sa ceremony -- the annual ritual in which offerings and respects are paid to the dead which is effectively ancestor worship -- but the Protestant churches forbid it. The respect for ancestors and the ceremony are a deep part of most Koreans' systems of belief, and so many people these days are reconsidering Catholicism in a more positive light for that reason (and other lenience) alone, and joining up.
There is much in the historical resistance to the Japanese occupation which is tied up with Christian churches, a good part of the reason why there are so many more here than over in Japan.
As far as this group of abductees goes, well, it's a bit sad on all counts, and reveals amongst much else how utterly naive many Koreans are about the rest of the world.
Hopefully there will be no more deaths.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:28 PM on July 26, 2007
Well, I'm quite sure how to parse that, but I will say that after 20 years of wandering around the world, and about 8 years total in Korea, I've never been anywhere where people are so unconcerned if someone has a different religious faith than their own, or none at all. There is a quite surprising acceptance of different faiths here, surprising and impressive given the xenophobic tendencies of other parts of the culture.
The exceptions to the let-it-be attitudes, if there are any, tend to be the evangelical Protestants here, who can be positively rabid, and are always zooming off on missionary trips to hellholes all over the planet.
A few interesting data points as background: about as many Koreans identify as 'Christian' as 'Buddhist' -- around 40%.
In common parlance, when Koreans say "Christian" they tend to mean Protestant only. Catholics are perceived as an almost entirely different faith.
The Protestant churches -- the majority -- are often, rightly, perceived as rich persons' social clubs. Many join up expressly to meet and rub shoulders with the right people -- not different from what happened in decades past in America or Canada, of course.
The Catholic church here allows Koreans to perform the chae sa ceremony -- the annual ritual in which offerings and respects are paid to the dead which is effectively ancestor worship -- but the Protestant churches forbid it. The respect for ancestors and the ceremony are a deep part of most Koreans' systems of belief, and so many people these days are reconsidering Catholicism in a more positive light for that reason (and other lenience) alone, and joining up.
There is much in the historical resistance to the Japanese occupation which is tied up with Christian churches, a good part of the reason why there are so many more here than over in Japan.
As far as this group of abductees goes, well, it's a bit sad on all counts, and reveals amongst much else how utterly naive many Koreans are about the rest of the world.
Hopefully there will be no more deaths.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:28 PM on July 26, 2007
starvos - That line was in reference to those in Korea who are emailing the kidnappers and encouraging them to behead the missionaries. I'm sure Korea is the land-of-milk-and-honey and all that, but I don't believe you actually think that encouraging the death of kidnapped countrymates is merely naivite.
posted by allen.spaulding at 7:33 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by allen.spaulding at 7:33 PM on July 26, 2007
Korea is far from the land of milk and honey. It's a hellish urban futurist-retro-dystopian nightmare in many ways, believe me.
don't believe you actually think that encouraging the death of kidnapped countrymates is merely naivite.
Not at all.
There are assholes everywhere, of course. I was merely offering some possibly new information to those unfamiliar with the country, as a counterpoint to the (possibly not deliberate) suggestion that there are any more of them in Korea, particularly when it comes to religious factionalism, than there are anywhere else. I've found that there are fewer; certainly fewer than in contemporary America.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:41 PM on July 26, 2007
don't believe you actually think that encouraging the death of kidnapped countrymates is merely naivite.
Not at all.
There are assholes everywhere, of course. I was merely offering some possibly new information to those unfamiliar with the country, as a counterpoint to the (possibly not deliberate) suggestion that there are any more of them in Korea, particularly when it comes to religious factionalism, than there are anywhere else. I've found that there are fewer; certainly fewer than in contemporary America.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:41 PM on July 26, 2007
Ok, I get it. I didn't mean that line to refer to religious factionalism but instead a willingness to publically advocate for the death of those with whom you disagree.
Other than Phelps, I think America only has anti-abortionists who advocate the death of doctors and that's died down since the mid-90s (but is by no means gone). Even on the hard left/right, you rarely see people openly wish for other Americans to be killed. That seems taboo.
posted by allen.spaulding at 7:52 PM on July 26, 2007
Other than Phelps, I think America only has anti-abortionists who advocate the death of doctors and that's died down since the mid-90s (but is by no means gone). Even on the hard left/right, you rarely see people openly wish for other Americans to be killed. That seems taboo.
posted by allen.spaulding at 7:52 PM on July 26, 2007
Which Afghanis? The ones who you believe the U.S. should eradicate because of their religious belief that Christian missionaries should be kidnapped and executed?
It isn't just "the Taliban" that thinks that way. Death to converts and proselytizers is the moderate view in mainstream Afghan culture.
...the South Korean missionaries are also putting the lives of those children in jeopardy.
Exactly. When I was working there, local English teachers explained to me that in a co-ed class, females would give a false name, because for a non-family member to know her name could bring shame upon a girl and her family.
What these Koreans were doing was reckless, selfish, and can't in any normal sense be considered as "trying to help". But then, I don't expect anything more from Korean missionaries.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:37 PM on July 26, 2007
It isn't just "the Taliban" that thinks that way. Death to converts and proselytizers is the moderate view in mainstream Afghan culture.
...the South Korean missionaries are also putting the lives of those children in jeopardy.
Exactly. When I was working there, local English teachers explained to me that in a co-ed class, females would give a false name, because for a non-family member to know her name could bring shame upon a girl and her family.
What these Koreans were doing was reckless, selfish, and can't in any normal sense be considered as "trying to help". But then, I don't expect anything more from Korean missionaries.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:37 PM on July 26, 2007
Al means "The" in Arabic. Al Jazeera means "The Peninsula", Al Quada means "The foundation/base/database/etc"
Splitting hairs really, but I believe Al Jazeera means "the island" not "the peninsula." Not like I'm at all fluent in Arabic, but that's what I seem to remember anyhow.
posted by miss lynnster at 1:20 AM on July 27, 2007
Splitting hairs really, but I believe Al Jazeera means "the island" not "the peninsula." Not like I'm at all fluent in Arabic, but that's what I seem to remember anyhow.
posted by miss lynnster at 1:20 AM on July 27, 2007
I suspect that in addition to endangering themselves, the South Korean missionaries are also putting the lives of those children in jeopardy. If daddy lets his daughter go to a supposedly secular event, and she comes back spouting christian slogans, there's a non-zero probability of deadly retribution against the child, if not by their own father, but by their neighbors.
Wow, this statement shows a whole heck of a lot of bigotry and ignorance. Do you have even one shred of evidence that this is true? Yes, all Afghans beat their children to death because they learn something at a meeting that they themselves sent the kid to.
What sort of inhuman monsters do you think Afghans are?
posted by Pollomacho at 6:23 AM on July 27, 2007
Wow, this statement shows a whole heck of a lot of bigotry and ignorance. Do you have even one shred of evidence that this is true? Yes, all Afghans beat their children to death because they learn something at a meeting that they themselves sent the kid to.
What sort of inhuman monsters do you think Afghans are?
posted by Pollomacho at 6:23 AM on July 27, 2007
"Even on the hard left/right, you rarely see people openly wish for other Americans to be killed."
"You're soaking in it."
posted by davy at 10:25 AM on July 27, 2007
"You're soaking in it."
posted by davy at 10:25 AM on July 27, 2007
Pollomacho, did you read my most recent comment above? I've been there, and have spoken to many Afghans about these issues.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:58 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by Meatbomb at 1:58 AM on July 29, 2007
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Who knows if these were Christian Afghanistans, or not, or whether they understood what they were saying or not. Either way, the sense of power that the invisible, camera-operating voice has, and the lack of context creates a pretty harsly damning video.
posted by suedehead at 10:37 AM on July 26, 2007