9/11 changed everything? And the NSA is only looking at overseas and terrorist-related phone and internet records?
October 13, 2007 12:04 PM Subscribe
to gather information about Americans' phone records --... the NSA had approached the company (Qwest) about participating in a warrantless surveillance program to gather information about Americans' phone records.
...Nacchio's account, which places the NSA proposal at a meeting on Feb. 27, 2001, suggests that the Bush administration was seeking to enlist telecommunications firms in programs without court oversight before the terrorist attacks on New York and the Pentagon. The Sept. 11 attacks have been cited by the government as the main impetus for its warrantless surveillance efforts. ... -- The Administration's crimes and illegal spying on all of us and Quest's punishment for not going along with their plans.
The problem is that only people who care enough about privacy to really fight for it politically are in the executive branch and the only privacy they care about is their own.
posted by srboisvert at 12:22 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by srboisvert at 12:22 PM on October 13, 2007
Qwest CEO Not Alone in Alleging NSA Started Domestic Phone Record Program 7 Months Before 9/11.
posted by ericb at 12:32 PM on October 13, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by ericb at 12:32 PM on October 13, 2007 [2 favorites]
We kept throwing up an occasional red herring to keep folks distracted. We'd hassle a cell network about getting call records, or try and get some data from an ISP. It was a little annoying to spend time on, but The Boss was right - it kept everyone looking the wrong way.
This still amazes me - in 2007, people thought we still wanted access to phone call records? The naivete required to think that we either didn't have whatever data we wanted or actually wanted something as indirect as phone records astounds me. But it was certainly very useful naivete to us.
So while we watched their gas purchases and driving patterns, back propagated their web searches and social networks, we made some noise about their library records. Hah - that one in particular was a stroke of brilliance and really fired up the natives. While we zoomed through the dataspace of their world we watched the shape of their tiny lives from a perspective they themselves would never share. As aliens looking down on ancients toiling away on the Nazca Lines, so were we to the very fabric of their day to day activity. While we extrapolated medical and insurance records out to lifetime expense and data leakage analyses, we leaked the odd hint that we might like to connect their social security numbers to their bank records, or - gasp - know if they called anyone on an international watchlist.
It was hard not to chuckle as we watched their lives from inside.
posted by freebird at 12:35 PM on October 13, 2007 [15 favorites]
This still amazes me - in 2007, people thought we still wanted access to phone call records? The naivete required to think that we either didn't have whatever data we wanted or actually wanted something as indirect as phone records astounds me. But it was certainly very useful naivete to us.
So while we watched their gas purchases and driving patterns, back propagated their web searches and social networks, we made some noise about their library records. Hah - that one in particular was a stroke of brilliance and really fired up the natives. While we zoomed through the dataspace of their world we watched the shape of their tiny lives from a perspective they themselves would never share. As aliens looking down on ancients toiling away on the Nazca Lines, so were we to the very fabric of their day to day activity. While we extrapolated medical and insurance records out to lifetime expense and data leakage analyses, we leaked the odd hint that we might like to connect their social security numbers to their bank records, or - gasp - know if they called anyone on an international watchlist.
It was hard not to chuckle as we watched their lives from inside.
posted by freebird at 12:35 PM on October 13, 2007 [15 favorites]
Durbin: No Immunity For Telecoms ‘Until We Understand What The Program Has Been About’
posted by ericb at 12:39 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by ericb at 12:39 PM on October 13, 2007
We can all read the Post without this post.
I don't read the Post so thank you amberglow for posting.
posted by ao4047 at 12:40 PM on October 13, 2007
I don't read the Post so thank you amberglow for posting.
posted by ao4047 at 12:40 PM on October 13, 2007
So while we watched their gas purchases and driving patterns...
Somebody's Watching Me.
posted by ericb at 12:46 PM on October 13, 2007
Somebody's Watching Me.
posted by ericb at 12:46 PM on October 13, 2007
We can all read the Post without this post. The NSA did some shitty stuff. News @ 11!!
We can enjoy this FPP without your post. Thanks for playing.
posted by ericb at 12:47 PM on October 13, 2007 [3 favorites]
We can enjoy this FPP without your post. Thanks for playing.
posted by ericb at 12:47 PM on October 13, 2007 [3 favorites]
Thanks for posting this AG, hadn't seen it either.
posted by Skygazer at 12:52 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by Skygazer at 12:52 PM on October 13, 2007
The NSA did some shitty stuff. News @ 11!!
Seen anything on the news really? Seems like Brittany 24/7.
I like to know -what- shitty stuff, because the key is intimidation not breadth.
Some people who are being watched are isolated or feel so and are thus intimidated from their usual courses of action.
That's what we call "bad" for a government to do.
If those of us who aren't particularly under the attention of the government don't know about it, the intimidation works perfectly and those people are marginalized. Therefore explication is necessary if we're going to render any aid.
Don't care? You don't have to act. While that might ensure you're not next, it doesn't change the kind of environment you'll be living in.
I s'pose there's something to be said for being the good German tho.
...nothing comes to mind.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:08 PM on October 13, 2007 [2 favorites]
Seen anything on the news really? Seems like Brittany 24/7.
I like to know -what- shitty stuff, because the key is intimidation not breadth.
Some people who are being watched are isolated or feel so and are thus intimidated from their usual courses of action.
That's what we call "bad" for a government to do.
If those of us who aren't particularly under the attention of the government don't know about it, the intimidation works perfectly and those people are marginalized. Therefore explication is necessary if we're going to render any aid.
Don't care? You don't have to act. While that might ensure you're not next, it doesn't change the kind of environment you'll be living in.
I s'pose there's something to be said for being the good German tho.
...nothing comes to mind.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:08 PM on October 13, 2007 [2 favorites]
We can all read the MetaFilter without the psmith (although he is not alone)
posted by wendell at 1:13 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by wendell at 1:13 PM on October 13, 2007
It's worthwhile to keep one eye on the NSA and another on the Bush administration's continued attempts to indemnify the phone companies like Verizon, Quest, and AT&T.
They broke the law, they know it, and they are scared of the public.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:13 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
They broke the law, they know it, and they are scared of the public.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:13 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
The thing that amazes me the most about this, is how totally unsurprised I am.
I stopped seeing our government as someone acting in my best interest years ago, now I view them as a group that is actively hostile to it's people.
posted by quin at 1:24 PM on October 13, 2007 [5 favorites]
I stopped seeing our government as someone acting in my best interest years ago, now I view them as a group that is actively hostile to it's people.
posted by quin at 1:24 PM on October 13, 2007 [5 favorites]
Former chief executive Joseph P. Nacchio, convicted in April of 19 counts of insider trading, said the NSA approached Qwest more than six months before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, according to court documents unsealed in Denver this week.
19 counts of insider trading? And I'm supposed to believe this criminal?
posted by three blind mice at 1:35 PM on October 13, 2007
19 counts of insider trading? And I'm supposed to believe this criminal?
posted by three blind mice at 1:35 PM on October 13, 2007
Thank you for posting this, amberglow -- I have been spreading the word too. It's a very important piece of the puzzle, not that there's much puzzle left.
posted by digaman at 1:36 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by digaman at 1:36 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
(don't mean to pile on. But seriously, I don't think people understand some of these connections and how it affects them. There is a genuine "why should I care" sort of thing in American culture which really bothers me in it's aggressiveness. What is it folks are doing otherwise that's so important? Obviously some are dressing up in multiple wet suits for some kinky things...which, actually, bothers me as well - there's always a 'party' at the perceived end of a civilization - but even in short discourse with some friends - they just don't want to hear about even elementary things - e.g. the draught - that affect them. Fear perhaps. Troubling. Only way I know to counter that trait in people is to make them more afraid of me.)
From article: "The real obligation is upon the Democrats to demand turnover of these documents"
Also troubling.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:37 PM on October 13, 2007 [2 favorites]
From article: "The real obligation is upon the Democrats to demand turnover of these documents"
Also troubling.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:37 PM on October 13, 2007 [2 favorites]
That's right, TBM -- don't believe him. Nor the climate scientists. Certainly not the liberal media. And not that snotnose 12 year old who went shilling for the Democrats on the radio. And definitely not the whining generals, the former detainees, or people from other countries. And not the phony soldiers. None of those moonbat "hard left" websites either, like nytimes.com.
Gosh, there's just so much untrustworthy information popping up everywhere these days.
posted by digaman at 1:41 PM on October 13, 2007 [9 favorites]
Gosh, there's just so much untrustworthy information popping up everywhere these days.
posted by digaman at 1:41 PM on October 13, 2007 [9 favorites]
And by no means, three blind mice, believe anything reported by Wired -- that publication/website which often publishes digaman's writings.
posted by ericb at 1:53 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
"And in May 2006, a lawsuit [PDF] filed against Verizon for allegedly turning over call records to the NSA alleged that AT&T began building a spying facility for the NSA just days after President Bush was inaugurated.Not only did Qwest speak about the Pioneer-Groundbreaker project (as per mention in the WaPo article), but so did AT&T and Verizon -- as above -- and as revealed further in this Wired article.'The project was described in the ATT sales division documents as calling for the construction of a facility to store and retain data gathered by the NSA from its domestic and foreign intelligence operations but was to be in actuality a duplicate ATT Network Operations Center for the use and possession of the NSA that would give the NSA direct, unlimited, unrestricted and unfettered access to all call information and internet and digital traffic on ATT's long distance network. [...]
The NSA program was initially conceived at least one year prior to 2001 but had been called off; it was reinstated within 11 days of the entry into office of defendant George W. Bush.
An ATT Solutions logbook reviewed by counsel confirms the Pioneer-Groundbreaker project start date of February 1, 2001.' [more]"
posted by ericb at 1:53 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Why Do You Need Immunity, If You Haven't Broken the Law?
"The Bush administration is desperately trying to get immunity for the telecom companies inserted into the next wiretapping bill. But let me ask a simple question - why would the telecom companies need immunity if they didn't break the law?posted by ericb at 1:57 PM on October 13, 2007 [11 favorites]
I'm not trying to be clever here. I'm asking a literal question. Isn't this an obvious admission that the administration did ask the large telecommunication companies to break the law for them? And if they did, why on God's green earth should we give them immunity without investigating what they did? In fact, shouldn't somebody be looking into doing the opposite - enforcing the law?
Has enforcing US law become so quaint and obsolete that when someone pretty much admits they broke the law and asks in essence for a preemptive pardon, no one looks into it? Do we have a Justice Department anymore? Isn't it comical that these guys ran on the 'rule of law' and restoring dignity back into the White House?
Here's another ironic twist. We are all supposed to go along with warrantless wiretapping because 'you don't have anything to worry about if you haven't done anything wrong.' If I had a nickel for every time a conservative said that to me, I'd have at least $37.50. So, let me throw it back at them: If the telecom companies didn't do anything wrong, they don't have anything to worry about. Right? So, why would they need immunity from US law?
...how about we don't give immunity for breaking the law? How about we prosecute it instead?
There were top level people inside the Justice Department and the CIA who quit over how illegal the warrantless wiretapping, the torture memos and the detainee detention programs were and are. They are all described as hardliners or conservative stalwarts. How about we ask these people why they think these programs are so illegal? How about we listen to them and change the programs back so that they are legal again instead of encouraging further law breaking? I know, very radical.
President Bush has threatened to veto any bill that doesn't have an immunity clause. I'm sorry I couldn't hear you, Mr. 29%. Why would anyone listen to the most unpopular president of all time?"
Similar issue that time I posted something from Truthout
posted by rxrfrx at 2:04 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by rxrfrx at 2:04 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Congresses approval ratings are on par with GWBs...
posted by rosswald at 2:13 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by rosswald at 2:13 PM on October 13, 2007
I've never seen a government so terrified of a populace that was so disinterested in doing it any harm.
posted by Legomancer at 2:24 PM on October 13, 2007 [5 favorites]
posted by Legomancer at 2:24 PM on October 13, 2007 [5 favorites]
There are no conspiracies of silence; only conspiracies of noise.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:32 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:32 PM on October 13, 2007
19 counts of insider trading? And I'm supposed to believe this criminal?
posted by three blind mice
Insider trading is practically ubiquitous among CEOs and other high corporate officials in the US under Bush, but is never prosecuted except for reasons of politics.
You should believe him because of those convictions. They were his punishment for refusing to play ball.
posted by jamjam at 2:36 PM on October 13, 2007 [8 favorites]
posted by three blind mice
Insider trading is practically ubiquitous among CEOs and other high corporate officials in the US under Bush, but is never prosecuted except for reasons of politics.
You should believe him because of those convictions. They were his punishment for refusing to play ball.
posted by jamjam at 2:36 PM on October 13, 2007 [8 favorites]
I've never seen a government so terrified of a populace that was so disinterested in doing it any harm.
I think that's just because we still don't know everything they've been doing. Once all the full stories come out--if ever--we'll all want to do someone harm--if we're still able to, that is.
By a margin of 52% to 43%, Americans want Congress to consider impeaching President Bush if he wiretapped American citizens without a judge's approval, (06 Zogby poll)
posted by amberglow at 2:48 PM on October 13, 2007 [3 favorites]
I think that's just because we still don't know everything they've been doing. Once all the full stories come out--if ever--we'll all want to do someone harm--if we're still able to, that is.
By a margin of 52% to 43%, Americans want Congress to consider impeaching President Bush if he wiretapped American citizens without a judge's approval, (06 Zogby poll)
posted by amberglow at 2:48 PM on October 13, 2007 [3 favorites]
I think that's just because we still don't know everything they've been doing. Once all the full stories come out--if ever--we'll all want to do someone harm--if we're still able to, that is.
Once the truth is available the democratic party will help cover it up for the sake of the nation and by nation they mean their campaign contributers and former/future employers.
posted by srboisvert at 2:54 PM on October 13, 2007
Once the truth is available the democratic party will help cover it up for the sake of the nation and by nation they mean their campaign contributers and former/future employers.
posted by srboisvert at 2:54 PM on October 13, 2007
Smedleyman: "Seen anything on the news really? Seems like Brittany 24/7."
People still watch the quote unquote news? That's more unsettling than anything else in this thread. Why are you still watching the quote unquote news, when we've got the Gnooze?
"There is a genuine "why should I care" sort of thing in American culture which really bothers me in it's aggressiveness. What is it folks are doing otherwise that's so important?"
Living. Surviving. Doing things we can do something about. A lobster in a pot of slowly boiling water can opt to scream and bang his manacled claws against the sides of his prison, or he can enjoy the sauna while it lasts. Nero fiddled while Rome burned: he had the right idea.
I can get an ulcer over all this if I chose. I got more than enough things in my life giving me ulcers. I don't need to worry about things I have no control over. People talk about how important it is to vote: that one person can make a difference. That is a lie.
Back in the days of slavery, plantation owners would marvel at how their slaves would celebrate in the death of their loved ones and mourn births. I used to be saddened on occasion that I know a day will come before this is all over that everyone -and I mean every human on this planet- will understand the reason why. However, now I get it. It's time to mourn beginnings and celebrate endings. I have my reservation to Milliways. Where'd you put yours?
Frankly, I was expecting the US to fall apart long before this, so it's amazing to watch it survive as long as it has. Those of us with no power are going to party like it's 1999. Simply for there is nothing more to do than enjoy what's left while it lasts. So either pick up a fiddle or stop running around in circles screaming about the sky falling. We know the sky is falling. This is cause to celebrate.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:20 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
People still watch the quote unquote news? That's more unsettling than anything else in this thread. Why are you still watching the quote unquote news, when we've got the Gnooze?
"There is a genuine "why should I care" sort of thing in American culture which really bothers me in it's aggressiveness. What is it folks are doing otherwise that's so important?"
Living. Surviving. Doing things we can do something about. A lobster in a pot of slowly boiling water can opt to scream and bang his manacled claws against the sides of his prison, or he can enjoy the sauna while it lasts. Nero fiddled while Rome burned: he had the right idea.
I can get an ulcer over all this if I chose. I got more than enough things in my life giving me ulcers. I don't need to worry about things I have no control over. People talk about how important it is to vote: that one person can make a difference. That is a lie.
Back in the days of slavery, plantation owners would marvel at how their slaves would celebrate in the death of their loved ones and mourn births. I used to be saddened on occasion that I know a day will come before this is all over that everyone -and I mean every human on this planet- will understand the reason why. However, now I get it. It's time to mourn beginnings and celebrate endings. I have my reservation to Milliways. Where'd you put yours?
Frankly, I was expecting the US to fall apart long before this, so it's amazing to watch it survive as long as it has. Those of us with no power are going to party like it's 1999. Simply for there is nothing more to do than enjoy what's left while it lasts. So either pick up a fiddle or stop running around in circles screaming about the sky falling. We know the sky is falling. This is cause to celebrate.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:20 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Can somebody other than Barbara please give Bush a blow job so we can impeach him?
I know it would be really gross, but just .. think of America!
posted by Maias at 3:36 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure what that Gnooze thing is ZM, but I think I like it.
posted by quin at 3:49 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by quin at 3:49 PM on October 13, 2007
Can somebody other than Barbara please give Bush a blow job so we can impeach him?
Well, I wish Barbara would give him a blow job. That'd be news. Whether it be his mother, Barbara or his daughter, Barbara.
posted by ericb at 3:50 PM on October 13, 2007
Well, I wish Barbara would give him a blow job. That'd be news. Whether it be his mother, Barbara or his daughter, Barbara.
posted by ericb at 3:50 PM on October 13, 2007
Quest, Verizon, AT&T. Who the hell am I supposed to get phone service from now?
posted by Brittanie at 3:59 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by Brittanie at 3:59 PM on October 13, 2007
Quest, Verizon, AT&T. Who the hell am I supposed to get phone service from now?
Wanna join my network?
posted by ericb at 4:23 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Wanna join my network?
posted by ericb at 4:23 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
It would be useful to read up on what NSA was supposed to be doing previous to what we are learning here. I suggest a reading of this book by Bamford:
http://tinyurl.com/3bw3p7
You will see what that group was authorized to do and how it differs substantially from what they have now been doing.
Next go to the net and search for docs posted by NSA--FOI--and you will discover that the organization went to Bush shortly after he took office and it was they that suggested a big widening of their "mandate"--(mandate in italic because though they have a mandate published you can not read it because it is not available for national security reasons).
Will he Dems restore things to the original purpose of NSA (see Bamford book)?; I doubt it, though they will probably require FISA to oversee this extension of operations.
posted by Postroad at 4:23 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
http://tinyurl.com/3bw3p7
You will see what that group was authorized to do and how it differs substantially from what they have now been doing.
Next go to the net and search for docs posted by NSA--FOI--and you will discover that the organization went to Bush shortly after he took office and it was they that suggested a big widening of their "mandate"--(mandate in italic because though they have a mandate published you can not read it because it is not available for national security reasons).
Will he Dems restore things to the original purpose of NSA (see Bamford book)?; I doubt it, though they will probably require FISA to oversee this extension of operations.
posted by Postroad at 4:23 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
related to Postroad's link, and backstory: What Nacchio Tells Us about the NSA-- a timeline from 97 thru 01 of all Govt work and meetings with Qwest
posted by amberglow at 4:40 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by amberglow at 4:40 PM on October 13, 2007
"There is a genuine "why should I care" sort of thing in American culture which really bothers me in it's aggressiveness. What is it folks are doing otherwise that's so important?"
Interestingly, the phenomenon of humans showing interest only in things that affect them directly did not exist until 1781, when it was invented by James Madison.
Anyway this is an interesting story and a very serious accusation.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:47 PM on October 13, 2007
Has anyone thought seriously about not just the relationship between the non-cooperation of Qwest and its subsequent legal problems but also the cooperation of AT&T and the subsequent mergers leading to what many call the "rebuilding of Ma Bell"? (Yes, I know that the core of the "new" AT&T is really the management of the old SBC, but it's smart to merge with a company with friends in high places).
posted by wendell at 5:14 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by wendell at 5:14 PM on October 13, 2007
Q-W-E-S-T.
Spell it right already. You're pissing off my inner pedant.
posted by dw at 5:23 PM on October 13, 2007
Spell it right already. You're pissing off my inner pedant.
posted by dw at 5:23 PM on October 13, 2007
We can all read the Post without this post. The NSA did some shitty stuff. News @ 11!!
lol your post was so stupid it got deleted.
posted by quarter waters and a bag of chips at 6:05 PM on October 13, 2007
lol your post was so stupid it got deleted.
posted by quarter waters and a bag of chips at 6:05 PM on October 13, 2007
Once the truth is available the democratic party will help cover it up for the sake of the nation and by nation they mean their campaign contributers and former/future employers. --srboisvert
Hmmm...smells like sarcasm, but I can't be sure...
Former Clinton officials lobby for amnesty for FISA lawbreaking
posted by jaronson at 7:22 PM on October 13, 2007
Hmmm...smells like sarcasm, but I can't be sure...
Former Clinton officials lobby for amnesty for FISA lawbreaking
posted by jaronson at 7:22 PM on October 13, 2007
May 06: President Bush Discusses NSA Surveillance Program --After September the 11th, I vowed to the American people that our government would do everything within the law to protect them against another terrorist attack. As part of this effort, I authorized the National Security Agency to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. ...
posted by amberglow at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by amberglow at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
and of course: ... If Qwest's competitors were already abetting this bloodless(?) coup before 9/11, then the "administration's" domestic spying not only has little if anything to do with response to terrorism, but it also objectively failed to prevent 9/11. ...</i?
posted by amberglow at 7:44 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by amberglow at 7:44 PM on October 13, 2007
And in VT: A law firm that represents clients at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan is warning its Vermont clients that it believes the federal government has been monitoring its phones and computer system. ...
posted by amberglow at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by amberglow at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2007
What are they hiding. What are they hiding. What are they hiding.
And will we ever know.
posted by digaman at 7:59 PM on October 13, 2007
And will we ever know.
posted by digaman at 7:59 PM on October 13, 2007
I have just finished rewatching Gene Hackman and Will Smith in ENEMY OF THE STATE. Watch it. Listen closely to Hackman, when, halfway through the film, he talks about what NSA can and has been doing.The film was made (I think) in 1998.
posted by Postroad at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by Postroad at 8:01 PM on October 13, 2007
That was a great film. Same metaparanoid rush as that sequence in the most recent Bourne installment when the British journalist utters the word "Blackbriar" into his cell phone in London, opening up an Echelon window on a screen at CIA headquarters.
posted by digaman at 8:03 PM on October 13, 2007
posted by digaman at 8:03 PM on October 13, 2007
I have just finished rewatching Gene Hackman and Will Smith in ENEMY OF THE STATE.
As per above: Somebody's Watching Me.
posted by ericb at 8:11 PM on October 13, 2007
As per above: Somebody's Watching Me.
posted by ericb at 8:11 PM on October 13, 2007
Can somebody other than Barbara please give Bush a blow job so we can impeach him?
Fine, I'll do it. shudders But will you all still respect me in the morning?
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:35 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Fine, I'll do it. shudders But will you all still respect me in the morning?
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:35 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
I have just finished rewatching Gene Hackman and Will Smith in ENEMY OF THE STATE. Watch it. Listen closely to Hackman, when, halfway through the film, he talks about what NSA can and has been doing. The film was made (I think) in 1998.
You might want to also rent another Hackman movie, The Conversation. It feeds into Enemy of the State nicely, and Coppola made it back in 1974.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:43 PM on October 13, 2007
You might want to also rent another Hackman movie, The Conversation. It feeds into Enemy of the State nicely, and Coppola made it back in 1974.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:43 PM on October 13, 2007
I can feel it.
They are almost finished with what they've wanted to accomplish.
The political classes don't even try to maintain the illusion that you or I or any other common man or woman may play a part in defining what the "American Experiment" is. There is so much noise, distraction, delusion and deprivation. Most citizens are consumed with their quiet desperations. The middle class is busy trying to keep their heads above water and there is no time to be concerned with thinking beyond daily life let alone thinking about just what those who swore to represent them have been up to. The working poor are just trying to stay alive, keep their kids clothed and out of trouble, and a roof over their heads. The upper-middle are too busy with self gratification, consequences be damned. The fixed income elderly are slowly fading away, ashamed of the sniveling worthless generations which their sacrifices begat. There really is no force in the American public sphere to challenge the morally bankrupt and those who are innately corrupt.
There is so much fear and doubt in the minds of America, and it has been placed there to allow for the piecemeal destrcution of a Republic, and the bloodless capitulation of it's inhabitants.
It's a sorry attempt, this long running false hope of an electoral change.
The way is set.
Bunk Busters over Baghdad, daisy cutters through Damascus, and Tomahawks to Tehran.
Russian sabers, and American bayonets. Rattling.
China choking on its industrial detritus, drowning in chemical filth , Musharrafs' head taken and brilliant blossoms over India's call canter capitals.
Drought weary Oz unable to feed itself, and an American west burning... forever under a harsh blazing star.
Acidified oceans, bare mountain tops, glaciers distant fading memories. The air thick, the water slick, with oxygen killing algae.
Last man standing.
I can feel it.
Last man standing.
I can feel it.
The way is set.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 9:40 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
They are almost finished with what they've wanted to accomplish.
The political classes don't even try to maintain the illusion that you or I or any other common man or woman may play a part in defining what the "American Experiment" is. There is so much noise, distraction, delusion and deprivation. Most citizens are consumed with their quiet desperations. The middle class is busy trying to keep their heads above water and there is no time to be concerned with thinking beyond daily life let alone thinking about just what those who swore to represent them have been up to. The working poor are just trying to stay alive, keep their kids clothed and out of trouble, and a roof over their heads. The upper-middle are too busy with self gratification, consequences be damned. The fixed income elderly are slowly fading away, ashamed of the sniveling worthless generations which their sacrifices begat. There really is no force in the American public sphere to challenge the morally bankrupt and those who are innately corrupt.
There is so much fear and doubt in the minds of America, and it has been placed there to allow for the piecemeal destrcution of a Republic, and the bloodless capitulation of it's inhabitants.
It's a sorry attempt, this long running false hope of an electoral change.
The way is set.
Bunk Busters over Baghdad, daisy cutters through Damascus, and Tomahawks to Tehran.
Russian sabers, and American bayonets. Rattling.
China choking on its industrial detritus, drowning in chemical filth , Musharrafs' head taken and brilliant blossoms over India's call canter capitals.
Drought weary Oz unable to feed itself, and an American west burning... forever under a harsh blazing star.
Acidified oceans, bare mountain tops, glaciers distant fading memories. The air thick, the water slick, with oxygen killing algae.
Last man standing.
I can feel it.
Last man standing.
I can feel it.
The way is set.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 9:40 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
"So either pick up a fiddle or stop running around in circles screaming about the sky falling. We know the sky is falling. This is cause to celebrate."
&
"The way is set."
Life, fortune, sacred honor.
I remember back when I died (the first time, for about 3 minutes) thinking how hard it was to struggle. I'm not exactly a soft man, but the situation I was in and the obvious fact I was dying (and in fact did for a bit until revived) had somewhat taken me aback.
There was no macho hard ass energy pushing me on there at the end. No heroism. Nothing about glory or even the most sacred ideals keeping me struggling for life.
Only a small but very very strong voice within me that said: "Well...what the hell else have to got to do?"
I'm not about to just roll over for some punks who want dominance because they interpret desiring freedom and not chasing power as weakness (seen Dogville?). It only takes one person. If I have to do it myself I will, and if I fail it's still time well spent. I mean what, you're just going to lie there in the final hours? Fuck that. I get bored too easily.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:11 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
&
"The way is set."
Life, fortune, sacred honor.
I remember back when I died (the first time, for about 3 minutes) thinking how hard it was to struggle. I'm not exactly a soft man, but the situation I was in and the obvious fact I was dying (and in fact did for a bit until revived) had somewhat taken me aback.
There was no macho hard ass energy pushing me on there at the end. No heroism. Nothing about glory or even the most sacred ideals keeping me struggling for life.
Only a small but very very strong voice within me that said: "Well...what the hell else have to got to do?"
I'm not about to just roll over for some punks who want dominance because they interpret desiring freedom and not chasing power as weakness (seen Dogville?). It only takes one person. If I have to do it myself I will, and if I fail it's still time well spent. I mean what, you're just going to lie there in the final hours? Fuck that. I get bored too easily.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:11 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
Ooops, I meant Laura... and Fiberoptic, not only will you be respected, but widely applauded as a hero who "took one for the team."
posted by Maias at 11:08 AM on October 14, 2007
posted by Maias at 11:08 AM on October 14, 2007
...I can feel it.
The way is set.
And Blackwater and others here at home "to maintain order".
I'm not about to just roll over for some punks who want dominance because they interpret desiring freedom and not chasing power as weakness
Amen.
posted by amberglow at 4:04 PM on October 14, 2007
The way is set.
And Blackwater and others here at home "to maintain order".
I'm not about to just roll over for some punks who want dominance because they interpret desiring freedom and not chasing power as weakness
Amen.
posted by amberglow at 4:04 PM on October 14, 2007
Hundreds of New Documents Reveal Expanded Military Role in Domestic Surveillance
posted by homunculus at 4:05 PM on October 14, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 4:05 PM on October 14, 2007 [1 favorite]
from there: A comprehensive analysis of 455 NSLs issued after 9/11 shows that the Defense Department seems to have collaborated with the FBI to circumvent the law, may have overstepped its legal authority to obtain financial and credit records, provided misleading information to Congress, and silenced NSL recipients from speaking out about the records requests, according to the ACLU.
I wonder what all the other Depts and Agencies have been doing?
posted by amberglow at 7:18 PM on October 14, 2007
I wonder what all the other Depts and Agencies have been doing?
posted by amberglow at 7:18 PM on October 14, 2007
NYT Editorial today: Spies, Lies and FISA -- ... President Bush has been telling Americans that any change would deny the government critical information, make it easier for terrorists to infiltrate, expose state secrets, and make it harder “to save American lives.”
There is no truth to any of those claims. ...
Mr. Bush says the law should give immunity to communications companies that gave data to the government over the last five years without a court order. He says they should not be punished for helping to protect America, but what Mr. Bush really wants is to avoid lawsuits that could uncover the extent of the illegal spying he authorized after 9/11.
...
posted by amberglow at 8:18 PM on October 14, 2007
There is no truth to any of those claims. ...
Mr. Bush says the law should give immunity to communications companies that gave data to the government over the last five years without a court order. He says they should not be punished for helping to protect America, but what Mr. Bush really wants is to avoid lawsuits that could uncover the extent of the illegal spying he authorized after 9/11.
...
posted by amberglow at 8:18 PM on October 14, 2007
Groups on left, right ask candidates to reject Bush's wider powers
posted by homunculus at 8:54 PM on October 14, 2007
posted by homunculus at 8:54 PM on October 14, 2007
So, once the paranoid bullies ran out of "real" enemies in the world, they turned on us.
Anyone surprised?
posted by zoogleplex at 2:34 PM on October 15, 2007
Anyone surprised?
posted by zoogleplex at 2:34 PM on October 15, 2007
Top Spy Asked to Explain Pre-9/11 Spying Allegations
posted by homunculus at 6:07 PM on October 15, 2007
posted by homunculus at 6:07 PM on October 15, 2007
Verizon Says It Turned Over Data Without Court Orders
To quote Frank Rich, we're all "good Germans" now.
posted by ericb at 11:20 AM on October 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
To quote Frank Rich, we're all "good Germans" now.
posted by ericb at 11:20 AM on October 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
and about that Verizon thing: ...Verizon also disclosed that the FBI, using administrative subpoenas, sought information identifying not just a person making a call, but all the people that customer called, as well as the people those people called. ...
posted by amberglow at 12:20 PM on October 16, 2007
posted by amberglow at 12:20 PM on October 16, 2007
Get this: it's a big moneymaker for them too! unbelievable!
What Does Uncle Sam Pay to Read Your E-Mail?-- According to an internal Comcast cable company document, the giant cable-Internet-phone provider charges the government $1,000 nearly every time the FBI or other intelligence or law enforcement agency wants to surveil a person's e-mail or digital phone account. ...
posted by amberglow at 8:15 PM on October 17, 2007
What Does Uncle Sam Pay to Read Your E-Mail?-- According to an internal Comcast cable company document, the giant cable-Internet-phone provider charges the government $1,000 nearly every time the FBI or other intelligence or law enforcement agency wants to surveil a person's e-mail or digital phone account. ...
posted by amberglow at 8:15 PM on October 17, 2007
Senate Dems Reportedly Agree To Immunize Spying Telecoms
Sounds like the clock needs to be moved up.
posted by homunculus at 10:07 AM on October 18, 2007
Sounds like the clock needs to be moved up.
posted by homunculus at 10:07 AM on October 18, 2007
Yes! Dodd puts a hold! Senator Chris Dodd plans to put a hold on the Senate FISA renewal bill because it reportedly grants retroactive immunity to telephone companies for any role they played in the Bush administration's warrantless eavesdropping program, Election Central has learned.
Dodd will send a letter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid this afternoon informing him of his decision. Dodd also plans to put up a page today at his campaign Web site where opponents of the immunity provision can register their opposition. ...
They should have been doing this years ago--even when in the minority.
posted by amberglow at 3:26 PM on October 18, 2007
Dodd will send a letter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid this afternoon informing him of his decision. Dodd also plans to put up a page today at his campaign Web site where opponents of the immunity provision can register their opposition. ...
They should have been doing this years ago--even when in the minority.
posted by amberglow at 3:26 PM on October 18, 2007
more on Dodd and new poll results on it all at Digby: You've Gotta Know When To Hold It
posted by amberglow at 3:45 PM on October 18, 2007
posted by amberglow at 3:45 PM on October 18, 2007
Reid and Pelosi (and many many other Congressional "leaders") need to go away.
posted by amberglow at 8:00 PM on October 18, 2007
posted by amberglow at 8:00 PM on October 18, 2007
Dodd says he is prepared to Filibuster the FISA/Telecom immunity bill
posted by homunculus at 1:37 PM on October 19, 2007
posted by homunculus at 1:37 PM on October 19, 2007
Democratic Lawmaker Pushing Immunity Is Newly Flush With Telco Cash
posted by homunculus at 1:58 PM on October 19, 2007
posted by homunculus at 1:58 PM on October 19, 2007
Democratic Lawmaker Pushing Immunity Is Newly Flush With Telco Cash
So is Hillary and many many many others. The New York senator and Democratic presidential candidate was the top recipient of funds from employees of AT&T, Verizon, Comcast and Time Warner through the first quarter of 2007.
posted by amberglow at 3:12 PM on October 19, 2007
So is Hillary and many many many others. The New York senator and Democratic presidential candidate was the top recipient of funds from employees of AT&T, Verizon, Comcast and Time Warner through the first quarter of 2007.
posted by amberglow at 3:12 PM on October 19, 2007
Only Senators Russ Feingold (D-WI) and Ron Wyden (D-OR) voted against the bill. The two holdouts got a proposal into the measure to "get a court order to eavesdrop on Americans wherever they are in the world," according to the AP. But that's unlikely to actually stay in the bill:
posted by amberglow at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2007
posted by amberglow at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2007
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More to the story, indeed. I hope the truth, whatever that may be, does eventually come out.
posted by malaprohibita at 12:18 PM on October 13, 2007