Hellraisers on F1 wheels
February 24, 2008 12:27 PM Subscribe
When F1 was sex and drugs and rocky roads. Starring, of course, James Hunt. And Jody Scheckter's iconic 6-wheeled Tyrrell P34. And your crash of crashes, Niki Lauda at Nurburgring 1976. Despite falling into a coma and suffering extensive facial burns, Lauda was back in 6 weeks at Monza.
I went to the 1975 Monaco Grand Prix, what a blast that was for us kids, and maybe the only time I ever saw my dad excited. We sat behind chain link but only a few feet from the cars.
posted by Rumple at 12:58 PM on February 24, 2008
posted by Rumple at 12:58 PM on February 24, 2008
I think that article is complete nonsense, more back in the day tripe. There are just as many personalities and passion (but perhaps less assholes, heavily debatable) in F1 now as then, it's just that some love to glamorize particularly types. It leads to all this hatred we see for the most successful drivers these days (case in point, Lewis Hamilton.)
Use of "a breath of fresh air" in regard to Eddie Irvine is quite sad. Talking BS doesn't make it less BS than PR BS. Maybe it's just me though, because I couldn't care less about what people I do whom I don't know. I'm just happy to have drivers like Kimi, Fernando, Nico, Lewis, and some others in F1.
Kimi is a known drinker and partier. Whoop de doo.
posted by juiceCake at 1:12 PM on February 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Use of "a breath of fresh air" in regard to Eddie Irvine is quite sad. Talking BS doesn't make it less BS than PR BS. Maybe it's just me though, because I couldn't care less about what people I do whom I don't know. I'm just happy to have drivers like Kimi, Fernando, Nico, Lewis, and some others in F1.
Kimi is a known drinker and partier. Whoop de doo.
posted by juiceCake at 1:12 PM on February 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
That crash footage is incredible. Besides the spectacle of the flaming car, the camera work is extraordinary -- the cameraman managed to keep the car in the center of the frame for nearly the entire crash, and only lost the framing for a split second when the car was rammed by another. He manages to find the rammed car instantly. That's impressive work.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:28 PM on February 24, 2008
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:28 PM on February 24, 2008
I'm with Kraftmatic, that crash footage was crazy. Was the guy sitting there in that burning car until the fire extinguishers put it out?
posted by Mach5 at 2:50 PM on February 24, 2008
posted by Mach5 at 2:50 PM on February 24, 2008
some user the raised thing for months, but since they have cleared it, I have been going to put it I, don´t rating bad of the video. Here I leave a species of periodic, this you in German, (I create), reason why do not understand what if says, please, somebody knows it, envienme a message and will publish the information.
posted by smackfu at 3:04 PM on February 24, 2008
posted by smackfu at 3:04 PM on February 24, 2008
I don't know about the "fewer assholes", juiceCake. Fact is, while the pilots of the time were a pretty out-of-control bunch, I'd still take them over the current corporate robot sociopaths à la Schumacher/Alonso/Hamilton. In the footage over Lauda's accident, for instance, it is noted that Lauda was saved by three fellow pilots. Would three F1 pilots bother to stop and try to pull a fellow pilot out of his flaming car? I doubt it...
posted by Skeptic at 3:06 PM on February 24, 2008
posted by Skeptic at 3:06 PM on February 24, 2008
What does Nicki Lauda have in common with "Hot Lips" Houlihan?
Both got fucked by Major Burns.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:16 PM on February 24, 2008
Both got fucked by Major Burns.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:16 PM on February 24, 2008
F1 these days is sanitised, squeaky clean and safe. Too safe in fact. I remember reading an interview with Stirling Moss (I think - if I'm mis-attributing I apologise Sir Stirling) where he said that safety is the reason there are no real F1 heroes any more. Back in the day, when making a bad mistake meant almost certain death there was a genuine mystique about the drivers, these handsome playboys who chose to risk their lives on a regular basis for little more than the pure glory of it and as a result, posters of them were on the bedroom walls of every schoolboy. It's a totally non-PC perspective in a world where governments seem to believe that banning smoking, drinking, speeding, sex and a myriad of other things that make life living will mean people will live forever, but one which I believe to be true, all moral issues aside.
In the modern era (well, since Imola '92 at least), completely screwing up a corner or overtaking manouvre results in nothing more than a stiff neck and a $5m repair bill. That, combined with astronomical salaries has bred a generation of arrogant arseholes. Now we've lost Villeneuve and Montoya, what's left. A Finn who's allegedly a party animal but can't string two words together in TV interviews and a bunch of corporate drones.
So why do I still watch? Because there's still something about F1 that blows IRL, Champ Cars, NASCAR, WTC, WRC and everything else into the weeds. With the possible exception of the BTCC (but that's a different story).
posted by NeonSurge at 3:37 PM on February 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
In the modern era (well, since Imola '92 at least), completely screwing up a corner or overtaking manouvre results in nothing more than a stiff neck and a $5m repair bill. That, combined with astronomical salaries has bred a generation of arrogant arseholes. Now we've lost Villeneuve and Montoya, what's left. A Finn who's allegedly a party animal but can't string two words together in TV interviews and a bunch of corporate drones.
So why do I still watch? Because there's still something about F1 that blows IRL, Champ Cars, NASCAR, WTC, WRC and everything else into the weeds. With the possible exception of the BTCC (but that's a different story).
posted by NeonSurge at 3:37 PM on February 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Who was the driver that stopped to help Lauda out of his car?
And self sealing gas tanks ain't a bad idea, didn't that crash and the disastrous 74 Indy 500 ( I think it was 74 too lazy to check) lead to such "innovations."
Also haven't they in the last 10 years or so, narrowed the wheel base to make the F1 cars more unstable to put the element of driver's skill back into the mix?
posted by Max Power at 4:15 PM on February 24, 2008
And self sealing gas tanks ain't a bad idea, didn't that crash and the disastrous 74 Indy 500 ( I think it was 74 too lazy to check) lead to such "innovations."
Also haven't they in the last 10 years or so, narrowed the wheel base to make the F1 cars more unstable to put the element of driver's skill back into the mix?
posted by Max Power at 4:15 PM on February 24, 2008
Max Power, I'd like you to meet the CHOOLY GRATE Oz driver, Will Power.
Well said, NeonSurge.
Can I add from my old man's perspective (who was a massive fan – recently found some handwritten notes of his when he was a wee lad, charting the course of the championship over the year. Moss. Fangio, Damon Hill's dad – but I digress) that he thinks he may as well be watching toy RC cars. He enjoyed seeing the drivers struggle with their machines. Now it's just a helmet.
He begrudgingly switched to watching motorcycles because of this.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:52 PM on February 24, 2008
Well said, NeonSurge.
Can I add from my old man's perspective (who was a massive fan – recently found some handwritten notes of his when he was a wee lad, charting the course of the championship over the year. Moss. Fangio, Damon Hill's dad – but I digress) that he thinks he may as well be watching toy RC cars. He enjoyed seeing the drivers struggle with their machines. Now it's just a helmet.
He begrudgingly switched to watching motorcycles because of this.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:52 PM on February 24, 2008
Myself and a friend drove down to LA from Seattle for the 1982 Grand Prix. Broken car, blown turbo, pouring can after can of oil into the thing to get down there. It was a blast once we arrived, exotic cars all over the place, several custom-built 747's at the airport with garages that lowered their owners cars down out of the belly and of course the F1 cars and the drivers and the circus itself. Five days of boozing and partying, having a nice italian meal at a restaurant on the outside of one of the turns. Our table was so close you could almost reach out and touch the cars as they drove by. Gilles Villenueve was my big hero and I got his autograph while I was there, great man and sorely missed. . . I also ran into Jackie Stewart while walking through the pits, great guy and a good sense of humor; I was a young kid and asked a stupid question 'What's it like to be rich?' His reply: 'I get to sleep late'. Tons of 'show us your tits' signs and plenty of girls willing to show them. Niki Lauda won that year in the TAG/Porsche and Villenueve was I think 2nd or 3rd, later disqualified because of an unusual rear wing on the back of the turbo V-6 Ferrari he drove. I couldn't get over how small the cars were, yet putting out something close to 800 horsepower at the time. Nelson Piquet playing with a soccer ball in the pits, lots of very cute and scantily clad girls wandering around. . . On the way back my car's engine blew up and my friend and I had to take Greyhound back to Seattle.
The next race was the Belgian GP and while I was eating dinner with my family that night Wayne Cody, an overweight and obnoxious sportscaster came on to comment on the footage I watched of Villenueve's car cartwheeling across the track after he crossed tires with Jochen Mass. He was thrown out of the car and across the track, landing against the safety fence. I can't remember if it was the impact or his cartwheeling through the air that killed him. After the footage concluded Cody put on funny glasses with a fake nose and moustache and crowed about how these were being given away at the next local baseball game. The man had absolutely no class whatsoever. I'm glad he's off the air.
posted by mk1gti at 5:34 PM on February 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
The next race was the Belgian GP and while I was eating dinner with my family that night Wayne Cody, an overweight and obnoxious sportscaster came on to comment on the footage I watched of Villenueve's car cartwheeling across the track after he crossed tires with Jochen Mass. He was thrown out of the car and across the track, landing against the safety fence. I can't remember if it was the impact or his cartwheeling through the air that killed him. After the footage concluded Cody put on funny glasses with a fake nose and moustache and crowed about how these were being given away at the next local baseball game. The man had absolutely no class whatsoever. I'm glad he's off the air.
posted by mk1gti at 5:34 PM on February 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Hunt used to hang out in our local pub in Fulham in his later years- demolishing packs of Silk Cut and knocking back pints of beer, cutting a less than dashing dash.
Still, it's a shame that drivers no longer have a last drag on a cigarette before stubbing it out on the tarmac, pulling on a helmet and demolishing the opposition.
posted by marvin at 5:49 PM on February 24, 2008
Still, it's a shame that drivers no longer have a last drag on a cigarette before stubbing it out on the tarmac, pulling on a helmet and demolishing the opposition.
posted by marvin at 5:49 PM on February 24, 2008
Who was the driver that stopped to help Lauda out of his car?
Harald Ertl, Guy Edwards, Brett Lunger and Arturo Merzario all helped rescue Lauda. Ertl's and Lunger's cars also collided with the burning Ferrari. There's a good description of the rescue here. (scroll to mid-page)
Ertl died in a private plane crash (he was at the controls) in the early 80s.
posted by grounded at 6:14 PM on February 24, 2008
Harald Ertl, Guy Edwards, Brett Lunger and Arturo Merzario all helped rescue Lauda. Ertl's and Lunger's cars also collided with the burning Ferrari. There's a good description of the rescue here. (scroll to mid-page)
Ertl died in a private plane crash (he was at the controls) in the early 80s.
posted by grounded at 6:14 PM on February 24, 2008
I don't know about the "fewer assholes", juiceCake. Fact is, while the pilots of the time were a pretty out-of-control bunch, I'd still take them over the current corporate robot sociopaths à la Schumacher/Alonso/Hamilton.
That's fine. I think that's a load of dismissive bullshit, but that's fine. I just don't buy the it's squeaky clean, oh, those guys of yesteryear were real men nonsense. I didn't know those guys and I don't know these guys and what comes through the press is hardly something I'm going to use to make a real assessment.
Too safe in fact.
I disagree. These guys should just insist on destroying all of Jackie Stewart's and others' safety work over the years so they can appear more glamorous in the eyes of fans? I don't believe for a moment that had any of the current and recent drivers been born during or before Stewart's time that they wouldn't be racing if the could. Jackie had this sort of be a real man bullshit thrown at him, as did Prost, and as do most of the drivers now. I also don't believe for a moment that they're really concerned with being seen as PC, though of course I don't know them personally. I'm going to assume, perhaps without any grace, that safety is largely a matter of not wanting to be injured and die, and not seeing your mate suffer such a fate (I know, what a horrible, politically correct thought.)
Now it's just a helmet.
Indeed. It makes perfect sense. Micheal had a better helmet than his teammates. Aryton's was miles better than Gerhard's. Kimi's better than Montoya's and Coulthard's. Alonso's better than Fisi's and Trulli's. That's why these guys were world champions and their teammates, driving the same cars weren't. The helmets.
posted by juiceCake at 7:27 PM on February 24, 2008
That's fine. I think that's a load of dismissive bullshit, but that's fine. I just don't buy the it's squeaky clean, oh, those guys of yesteryear were real men nonsense. I didn't know those guys and I don't know these guys and what comes through the press is hardly something I'm going to use to make a real assessment.
Too safe in fact.
I disagree. These guys should just insist on destroying all of Jackie Stewart's and others' safety work over the years so they can appear more glamorous in the eyes of fans? I don't believe for a moment that had any of the current and recent drivers been born during or before Stewart's time that they wouldn't be racing if the could. Jackie had this sort of be a real man bullshit thrown at him, as did Prost, and as do most of the drivers now. I also don't believe for a moment that they're really concerned with being seen as PC, though of course I don't know them personally. I'm going to assume, perhaps without any grace, that safety is largely a matter of not wanting to be injured and die, and not seeing your mate suffer such a fate (I know, what a horrible, politically correct thought.)
Now it's just a helmet.
Indeed. It makes perfect sense. Micheal had a better helmet than his teammates. Aryton's was miles better than Gerhard's. Kimi's better than Montoya's and Coulthard's. Alonso's better than Fisi's and Trulli's. That's why these guys were world champions and their teammates, driving the same cars weren't. The helmets.
posted by juiceCake at 7:27 PM on February 24, 2008
Here's some on-board video of '67 F1 cars on Nurburgring, and some vintage coverage of the '67 Grand Prix Germany. I heard some commentary from Jackie Stewart on that track, describing that you didn't so much drive the cars around Nurburgring as *bounce* them from corner to corner.
400hp, 1000lbs, skinny-ass tires, no aerodynamic downforce, and virtually no safety gear. Amazing. Amazingly stupid, but still amazing. I would love to see modern F1 cars run there, but there's just... no way...
posted by LordSludge at 7:28 PM on February 24, 2008
400hp, 1000lbs, skinny-ass tires, no aerodynamic downforce, and virtually no safety gear. Amazing. Amazingly stupid, but still amazing. I would love to see modern F1 cars run there, but there's just... no way...
posted by LordSludge at 7:28 PM on February 24, 2008
And, oddly enough, I just ran across this article earlier today, scolding Jenson Button on his "playboy ways".
posted by LordSludge at 7:37 PM on February 24, 2008
posted by LordSludge at 7:37 PM on February 24, 2008
Indeed. It makes perfect sense. Micheal had a better helmet than his teammates. Aryton's was miles better than Gerhard's. Kimi's better than Montoya's and Coulthard's. Alonso's better than Fisi's and Trulli's. That's why these guys were world champions and their teammates, driving the same cars weren't. The helmets.
I have absolutely no idea what your point is, there.
That's fine. I think that's a load of dismissive bullshit, but that's fine.
Actually, it's pretty much right. As someone who trains the kind of drivers that will be (if all goes well for them) in F1 in future years, we go to great efforts to make sure they can learn how to keep any semblance of 'personality' (in the 70's sense) hidden or suppressed - especially in terms of dealing with sponsors; it simply isn't in their best interests to have any sort of chance of clashing with any image that might be linked to supporting them.
This, combined with the massive increase in dedication and work requirements of the modern driver means that they simply don't have the time to be the fun loving and larger than life characters that populated 70's and even 80's GP racing. A different kind of personality character excels now - from the past years of the daredevil with prolific skill, to the modern day fanatically dedicated, deeply analytical mind (allied with prolific skill).
The sport has pushed different personalities forward. The 'real men' type are still around, they just have different sports that they are better at now - extreme sports and the like. There's no scope for any fun in modern motor racing as it adversely affects your chances of success.
posted by Brockles at 8:36 PM on February 24, 2008
I have absolutely no idea what your point is, there.
That's fine. I think that's a load of dismissive bullshit, but that's fine.
Actually, it's pretty much right. As someone who trains the kind of drivers that will be (if all goes well for them) in F1 in future years, we go to great efforts to make sure they can learn how to keep any semblance of 'personality' (in the 70's sense) hidden or suppressed - especially in terms of dealing with sponsors; it simply isn't in their best interests to have any sort of chance of clashing with any image that might be linked to supporting them.
This, combined with the massive increase in dedication and work requirements of the modern driver means that they simply don't have the time to be the fun loving and larger than life characters that populated 70's and even 80's GP racing. A different kind of personality character excels now - from the past years of the daredevil with prolific skill, to the modern day fanatically dedicated, deeply analytical mind (allied with prolific skill).
The sport has pushed different personalities forward. The 'real men' type are still around, they just have different sports that they are better at now - extreme sports and the like. There's no scope for any fun in modern motor racing as it adversely affects your chances of success.
posted by Brockles at 8:36 PM on February 24, 2008
Interesting that Villeneuve is mentioned above... I'll always remember him trying to limp back to the pit with a wheel hanging off the back, sparks flying, as one of the key moments of watching Formula One as a kid.
Whilst the fact that it's not the lunatic risk to drivers (and spectators) any more is a good thing, it seems a shame that it just seems to one procession after another. I've not watched it in years.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:39 AM on February 25, 2008
Whilst the fact that it's not the lunatic risk to drivers (and spectators) any more is a good thing, it seems a shame that it just seems to one procession after another. I've not watched it in years.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:39 AM on February 25, 2008
The PR machine is better today than it was. This is true throughout "Professional Sports" and I don't think we know about a fraction of what really "Goes on." People don't change that much.
I remember reading about Alex Rodriguez (baseball player for the Yankees), landing in the local paper for going to illegal poker parlors in the city. Or think about Michael Jordan and his gambling. It all still goes on, it's just not as in the public eye.
They have pretty much designed the cars to the point now that the tracks are not big enough. It's similar in motorcycle racing (certainly MotoGp at least) where the real racing happens on days when there are mixed, rainy/dry conditions.
Nice post, nice links. Thanks.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:04 AM on February 25, 2008
I remember reading about Alex Rodriguez (baseball player for the Yankees), landing in the local paper for going to illegal poker parlors in the city. Or think about Michael Jordan and his gambling. It all still goes on, it's just not as in the public eye.
They have pretty much designed the cars to the point now that the tracks are not big enough. It's similar in motorcycle racing (certainly MotoGp at least) where the real racing happens on days when there are mixed, rainy/dry conditions.
Nice post, nice links. Thanks.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:04 AM on February 25, 2008
In the modern era (well, since Imola '92 at least), completely screwing up a corner or overtaking manouvre results in nothing more than a stiff neck and a $5m repair bill.
Screwing up a corner, etc, is pretty unlikely to kill you, but it still does something much worse than just getting killed -- it lets people pass you. It even makes you lose the race.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:09 AM on February 25, 2008
Screwing up a corner, etc, is pretty unlikely to kill you, but it still does something much worse than just getting killed -- it lets people pass you. It even makes you lose the race.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:09 AM on February 25, 2008
it seems a shame that it just seems to one procession after another. I've not watched it in years.
The past couple of seasons have been better in that regard. Last season had essentially a three-way tie for the championship.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:10 AM on February 25, 2008
The past couple of seasons have been better in that regard. Last season had essentially a three-way tie for the championship.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:10 AM on February 25, 2008
I love F1. I have done since I was a little kid and I watched it with my dad. I watch it now and I've watched in every season even when things were dull, dull, dull. Its true that things have become sanitized, but last season just proved that F1 can be great again. On top of the great driving and the occasional skulduggery, F1 is a soap-opera for boys, normally with the FIA playing the 'Christ what an asshole' role.
posted by ob at 7:29 AM on February 25, 2008
posted by ob at 7:29 AM on February 25, 2008
Too safe in fact
Eh, people don't have to be injured or dead for crashes to entertain, especially when wet weather or bad aerodynamics are involved.
Perhaps that's the deliniator; where once we found idols, now we find performers. Nevertheless, people still get injured and killed, and the safety measures they're taking twenty years from now will make today's safety measures look pathetic and today's drivers look relatively fearless.
posted by davejay at 7:09 PM on February 25, 2008
Eh, people don't have to be injured or dead for crashes to entertain, especially when wet weather or bad aerodynamics are involved.
Perhaps that's the deliniator; where once we found idols, now we find performers. Nevertheless, people still get injured and killed, and the safety measures they're taking twenty years from now will make today's safety measures look pathetic and today's drivers look relatively fearless.
posted by davejay at 7:09 PM on February 25, 2008
Lighten up, juiceCake. Crikey!
I'm very light. I'm sorry for expression a point-of-view that makes you believe otherwise. But you've convinced me that the drivers of yesteryear were real and the current one's lack their flair for life and ability.
posted by juiceCake at 8:58 AM on February 26, 2008
I'm very light. I'm sorry for expression a point-of-view that makes you believe otherwise. But you've convinced me that the drivers of yesteryear were real and the current one's lack their flair for life and ability.
posted by juiceCake at 8:58 AM on February 26, 2008
Indeed. It makes perfect sense. Micheal had a better helmet than his teammates. Aryton's was miles better than Gerhard's. Kimi's better than Montoya's and Coulthard's. Alonso's better than Fisi's and Trulli's. That's why these guys were world champions and their teammates, driving the same cars weren't. The helmets.
I have absolutely no idea what your point is, there.
uncanny hengeman implied that today's cars dont' require the same level of skill as the cars of yesteryear and said it's just helmets, and yet, drivers make a huge difference today, as they did in years previous.
Actually, it's pretty much right. As someone who trains the kind of drivers that will be (if all goes well for them) in F1 in future years, we go to great efforts to make sure they can learn how to keep any semblance of 'personality' (in the 70's sense) hidden or suppressed - especially in terms of dealing with sponsors; it simply isn't in their best interests to have any sort of chance of clashing with any image that might be linked to supporting them.
Which doesn't make them less manly or possess less personality than the old guard. As an F1 fan, I pay no attention to that nonsense anyway and I don't find many of the drivers do as well (though many of them, it seems, don't care to be followed about and photographed.) I do not believe, for a moment, that a sponsor is going to pull out if a winning driver is also some sort of 70s like personality.
There's no scope for any fun in modern motor racing as it adversely affects your chances of success.
I disagree. Kimi has quite a reputation for partying, womanizing, and drinking, and he's quite successful as well. I don't really see the glamour or relevance in it however and if yo have a different type of personality, it doesn't make you any less of a "dare-devil" than those who fuck around.
posted by juiceCake at 9:07 AM on February 26, 2008
I have absolutely no idea what your point is, there.
uncanny hengeman implied that today's cars dont' require the same level of skill as the cars of yesteryear and said it's just helmets, and yet, drivers make a huge difference today, as they did in years previous.
Actually, it's pretty much right. As someone who trains the kind of drivers that will be (if all goes well for them) in F1 in future years, we go to great efforts to make sure they can learn how to keep any semblance of 'personality' (in the 70's sense) hidden or suppressed - especially in terms of dealing with sponsors; it simply isn't in their best interests to have any sort of chance of clashing with any image that might be linked to supporting them.
Which doesn't make them less manly or possess less personality than the old guard. As an F1 fan, I pay no attention to that nonsense anyway and I don't find many of the drivers do as well (though many of them, it seems, don't care to be followed about and photographed.) I do not believe, for a moment, that a sponsor is going to pull out if a winning driver is also some sort of 70s like personality.
There's no scope for any fun in modern motor racing as it adversely affects your chances of success.
I disagree. Kimi has quite a reputation for partying, womanizing, and drinking, and he's quite successful as well. I don't really see the glamour or relevance in it however and if yo have a different type of personality, it doesn't make you any less of a "dare-devil" than those who fuck around.
posted by juiceCake at 9:07 AM on February 26, 2008
Which doesn't make them less manly or possess less personality than the old guard.
Well, that's not strictly true, although mostly in the 'personality' area. The wild, crazy styles of characters don't fit in modern racing - proof positive is that the two examples of this type of person are Irvine and Raikonnen. And, let's be honest, they're pretty bloody tame. Irvine just got laid lots and shot his mouth off, and Kimi gets drunk every now and then. But that's just one 'rebel' for each of the last ten years. In the 70's, the daredevil was the predominant character. Even in the 80's, some of the off track behaviour that I have witnessed and heard about/seen the aftermath are simply unacceptable in modern racing. You just can't have fun and do what you want anymore, as you answer to too many people and sponsors. This means that if the personality is there, it must be quelled. And, let's face it, Kimi is pretty mild. I remember him when he was 17, and he isn't exactly a barrel of joy. The coverage of his exploits paints a different picture to the kid I remember. The main element of this is that nowadays you hear about every time he is wild, and in the 70's you only heard about the more crazy exploits if someone blabbed. The truth of what actually happened then is just crazy. No driver would get away with having three way races in hire cars through the centre of cities on the way to tracks, any more. Or turning up at the circuit with a hangover in last nights clothes. Everyone was doing that in the 70's and 80's (myself included) and it was a much more relaxed, party atmosphere. The industry in general has been clamped down through corporate pressure. Even mechanics and engineers are less daredevil than they used to be - I know of one mechanic in the 80's/90's that was working on an F1 car with a diet coke bottle spiked with Bacardi beside him at all times - you just can't get away with that sort of thing (quite rightly) any more, but the chances of it getting out to the normal fan that this sort of craziness was rife is tiny. The sport as a whole has produced a requirement for more 'sensible' activities.
There's no scope for any fun in modern motor racing as it adversely affects your chances of success.
I'd change that to 'any fun can adversely affect your chances of retaining your job or sponsor'. The only thing that saved Kimi was his talent - he has always been an F1 champion waiting to happen, and anyone that saw him drive knew that (if they knew what they were looking at). A mate and I toyed with the idea of taking bets on him being an F1 driver within 3 years at the end of 1999, with the option for 'World Champ within 5 years of then' as an option. Kicking ourselves now for not sticking a few hundred on it, I can tell you. Any driver populating the back half of the grid that was caught like that would be out on their ear, rest assured. You just would probably be fed the usual corporate shite about why he was dropped instead.
uncanny hengeman implied that today's cars dont' require the same level of skill as the cars of yesteryear and said it's just helmets, and yet, drivers make a huge difference today, as they did in years previous.
Ah. It was his inference I didn't understand/missed, then. To suggest that the level of skill has gone anything other than up (as a basic requirement) is ridiculous and patently wrong. Car control was the predominant element in yesteryear, and you could get by, and further up the ladder, an awful lot easier if that was your only skill. Now brains are essential, as is massive attention to detail, fitness, control, focus, reactions and dedication. Those that had all that in the old day still excelled, Moss and Fangio are perfect examples, but the grid isn't filled so easily with the 'also rans' who just rely purely on car control. Now the basic requirements of a race driver are much tougher - the lower bar for qualification to drive has increased, is the best way that I can describe it. The overall calibre has improved, as a result of lower end racing being more accessible and producing a wider variety of drivers to choose from.
posted by Brockles at 10:14 AM on February 26, 2008
Well, that's not strictly true, although mostly in the 'personality' area. The wild, crazy styles of characters don't fit in modern racing - proof positive is that the two examples of this type of person are Irvine and Raikonnen. And, let's be honest, they're pretty bloody tame. Irvine just got laid lots and shot his mouth off, and Kimi gets drunk every now and then. But that's just one 'rebel' for each of the last ten years. In the 70's, the daredevil was the predominant character. Even in the 80's, some of the off track behaviour that I have witnessed and heard about/seen the aftermath are simply unacceptable in modern racing. You just can't have fun and do what you want anymore, as you answer to too many people and sponsors. This means that if the personality is there, it must be quelled. And, let's face it, Kimi is pretty mild. I remember him when he was 17, and he isn't exactly a barrel of joy. The coverage of his exploits paints a different picture to the kid I remember. The main element of this is that nowadays you hear about every time he is wild, and in the 70's you only heard about the more crazy exploits if someone blabbed. The truth of what actually happened then is just crazy. No driver would get away with having three way races in hire cars through the centre of cities on the way to tracks, any more. Or turning up at the circuit with a hangover in last nights clothes. Everyone was doing that in the 70's and 80's (myself included) and it was a much more relaxed, party atmosphere. The industry in general has been clamped down through corporate pressure. Even mechanics and engineers are less daredevil than they used to be - I know of one mechanic in the 80's/90's that was working on an F1 car with a diet coke bottle spiked with Bacardi beside him at all times - you just can't get away with that sort of thing (quite rightly) any more, but the chances of it getting out to the normal fan that this sort of craziness was rife is tiny. The sport as a whole has produced a requirement for more 'sensible' activities.
There's no scope for any fun in modern motor racing as it adversely affects your chances of success.
I'd change that to 'any fun can adversely affect your chances of retaining your job or sponsor'. The only thing that saved Kimi was his talent - he has always been an F1 champion waiting to happen, and anyone that saw him drive knew that (if they knew what they were looking at). A mate and I toyed with the idea of taking bets on him being an F1 driver within 3 years at the end of 1999, with the option for 'World Champ within 5 years of then' as an option. Kicking ourselves now for not sticking a few hundred on it, I can tell you. Any driver populating the back half of the grid that was caught like that would be out on their ear, rest assured. You just would probably be fed the usual corporate shite about why he was dropped instead.
uncanny hengeman implied that today's cars dont' require the same level of skill as the cars of yesteryear and said it's just helmets, and yet, drivers make a huge difference today, as they did in years previous.
Ah. It was his inference I didn't understand/missed, then. To suggest that the level of skill has gone anything other than up (as a basic requirement) is ridiculous and patently wrong. Car control was the predominant element in yesteryear, and you could get by, and further up the ladder, an awful lot easier if that was your only skill. Now brains are essential, as is massive attention to detail, fitness, control, focus, reactions and dedication. Those that had all that in the old day still excelled, Moss and Fangio are perfect examples, but the grid isn't filled so easily with the 'also rans' who just rely purely on car control. Now the basic requirements of a race driver are much tougher - the lower bar for qualification to drive has increased, is the best way that I can describe it. The overall calibre has improved, as a result of lower end racing being more accessible and producing a wider variety of drivers to choose from.
posted by Brockles at 10:14 AM on February 26, 2008
Frankly, I couldn't care less how tame or untame any of the drivers are. As I mentioned before, I hold such standards as, to put it bluntly, posturing bullshit. So on this, we'll just have to clearly disagree, or rather, agree that one of us is interested in it and the other isn't.
At least we have Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion involved in espionage no less. We still have wankers in F1 like we did then but the wankerism is irrelevant if you can drive and I'm pretty much only interested in the sport, not the personal lives of the drivers.
posted by juiceCake at 2:25 PM on February 26, 2008
At least we have Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion involved in espionage no less. We still have wankers in F1 like we did then but the wankerism is irrelevant if you can drive and I'm pretty much only interested in the sport, not the personal lives of the drivers.
posted by juiceCake at 2:25 PM on February 26, 2008
An interesting interview with Roebuck in which muses about how some of the modern drivers, like Schumacher, Raikkonnen, and Alonso, don't really bother to fulfill their PR obligations. I pay hardly any attention to the PR so I wouldn't know but it seems to be a matter of opinion.
posted by juiceCake at 2:28 PM on February 26, 2008
posted by juiceCake at 2:28 PM on February 26, 2008
At least we have Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion involved in espionage no less.
All teams and all drivers pass information about previous teams/employers around and try and make advantage of it. At every level of the sport, from Formula Ford mechanics, to F1 drivers and designers. The entire motor racing industry has been in fits of giggles that so much of this particular spate of 'espionage' furore has been perpetuated. Everyone does it. It's just this one got a bit too public/effective and had to be seen to be dealt with. It's all a bit pathetic, from where I sit. More a PR exercise than any attempt to genuinely curb information transfer. The fact that it 'damaged the perception of F1' is the only thing that was being punished, not any element of competitive advantage. I think it was great exposure, ironically, but it is a shame McLaren were punished.
Frankly, I couldn't care less how tame or untame any of the drivers are.
Nor do I, if I'm brutally honest. I'm not even all that interested in it, where I don't know/know of the drivers/team employees myself from previous contact. I just know a fair bit about it, what with it being my job and all. The 'real men' argument is badly put, but it absolutely does have merit as a gauge of the personality types shift in the sport.
posted by Brockles at 3:38 PM on February 26, 2008
All teams and all drivers pass information about previous teams/employers around and try and make advantage of it. At every level of the sport, from Formula Ford mechanics, to F1 drivers and designers. The entire motor racing industry has been in fits of giggles that so much of this particular spate of 'espionage' furore has been perpetuated. Everyone does it. It's just this one got a bit too public/effective and had to be seen to be dealt with. It's all a bit pathetic, from where I sit. More a PR exercise than any attempt to genuinely curb information transfer. The fact that it 'damaged the perception of F1' is the only thing that was being punished, not any element of competitive advantage. I think it was great exposure, ironically, but it is a shame McLaren were punished.
Frankly, I couldn't care less how tame or untame any of the drivers are.
Nor do I, if I'm brutally honest. I'm not even all that interested in it, where I don't know/know of the drivers/team employees myself from previous contact. I just know a fair bit about it, what with it being my job and all. The 'real men' argument is badly put, but it absolutely does have merit as a gauge of the personality types shift in the sport.
posted by Brockles at 3:38 PM on February 26, 2008
uncanny hengeman implied that today's cars dont' require the same level of skill as the cars of yesteryear and said it's just helmets, and yet, drivers make a huge difference today, as they did in years previous.
Er. No I didn't.
I said my old man enjoyed watching drivers struggle with their machines. (For instance, he said each driver had a unique cornering style. Body English. Ripping thru the gears. Wrestling with the steering wheel.) He doesn't see that anymore. All he see's is a helmet. And he doesn't enjoy watching competing helmets any more than he would enjoy the thills and spills of watching RC cars race.
So he's switched to watching motorbikes to get that aspect, and good the fuck on him I say. Proves he's not some moron just barracking for a certain coloured car. Yaaaaaay!
IMHO, even the in-cockpit camera adds fuck all in the "driver / machine interaction" respect.
No mention of skill requirements. But I forgive you for the misunderstanding even though my post was pretty clear I yam very tolerant.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:12 PM on February 26, 2008
Er. No I didn't.
I said my old man enjoyed watching drivers struggle with their machines. (For instance, he said each driver had a unique cornering style. Body English. Ripping thru the gears. Wrestling with the steering wheel.) He doesn't see that anymore. All he see's is a helmet. And he doesn't enjoy watching competing helmets any more than he would enjoy the thills and spills of watching RC cars race.
So he's switched to watching motorbikes to get that aspect, and good the fuck on him I say. Proves he's not some moron just barracking for a certain coloured car. Yaaaaaay!
IMHO, even the in-cockpit camera adds fuck all in the "driver / machine interaction" respect.
No mention of skill requirements. But I forgive you for the misunderstanding even though my post was pretty clear I yam very tolerant.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:12 PM on February 26, 2008
I said my old man enjoyed watching drivers struggle with their machines.
In which case, it's a very good point. Even the size of the corrections and reactions are so small, these days, that even if you could see what they were doing, you'd only see much action if they were already crashing. I watched a 1930's Bugatti (much like this one) getting thrown around Snetterton race track, some years ago, and it was awesome. The guy was all elbows and arms trying to get the power down and exited the chicane sideways every single lap. Great to watch.
posted by Brockles at 5:20 PM on February 26, 2008
In which case, it's a very good point. Even the size of the corrections and reactions are so small, these days, that even if you could see what they were doing, you'd only see much action if they were already crashing. I watched a 1930's Bugatti (much like this one) getting thrown around Snetterton race track, some years ago, and it was awesome. The guy was all elbows and arms trying to get the power down and exited the chicane sideways every single lap. Great to watch.
posted by Brockles at 5:20 PM on February 26, 2008
Er. No I didn't.
Fine, I misinterpreted the statement "now it's just helmets." I apologize.
I've seen modern F1 cars live and the drivers struggle with them as well (particularly the drivers who are not the top drivers) not to mention struggling with far more Gs these days. However, I couldn't care less about such things really. Gilles was fun to watch, but Alain was much smoother.
posted by juiceCake at 2:54 PM on March 2, 2008
Fine, I misinterpreted the statement "now it's just helmets." I apologize.
I've seen modern F1 cars live and the drivers struggle with them as well (particularly the drivers who are not the top drivers) not to mention struggling with far more Gs these days. However, I couldn't care less about such things really. Gilles was fun to watch, but Alain was much smoother.
posted by juiceCake at 2:54 PM on March 2, 2008
All teams and all drivers pass information about previous teams/employers around and try and make advantage of it. At every level of the sport, from Formula Ford mechanics, to F1 drivers and designers. The entire motor racing industry has been in fits of giggles that so much of this particular spate of 'espionage' furore has been perpetuated. Everyone does it. It's just this one got a bit too public/effective and had to be seen to be dealt with. It's all a bit pathetic, from where I sit. More a PR exercise than any attempt to genuinely curb information transfer. The fact that it 'damaged the perception of F1' is the only thing that was being punished, not any element of competitive advantage. I think it was great exposure, ironically, but it is a shame McLaren were punished.
I agree that people bring their brain power and information they have to other "previous" teams/employers, however, a large portion of the entire motor racing fanbase has been in fits and giggles that many people fail to see the difference between passing and receiving documents and direct emails throughout a season, from a rogue member of another team, than taking your knowledge with you when you move teams. It's a huge difference and it's bafflingly dismissed.
Nor do I, if I'm brutally honest. I'm not even all that interested in it, where I don't know/know of the drivers/team employees myself from previous contact. I just know a fair bit about it, what with it being my job and all. The 'real men' argument is badly put, but it absolutely does have merit as a gauge of the personality types shift in the sport.
I disagree and though I believe there has been a shfit in terms of the nature of the sport, as in what one has to do to be successful, I don't believe one can say there has been some sort of overall personality shift for the worse. Their are a number of different personalities in the sport then, just as now, and in the future even. Obviously you feel otherwise.
posted by juiceCake at 2:59 PM on March 2, 2008
I agree that people bring their brain power and information they have to other "previous" teams/employers, however, a large portion of the entire motor racing fanbase has been in fits and giggles that many people fail to see the difference between passing and receiving documents and direct emails throughout a season, from a rogue member of another team, than taking your knowledge with you when you move teams. It's a huge difference and it's bafflingly dismissed.
Nor do I, if I'm brutally honest. I'm not even all that interested in it, where I don't know/know of the drivers/team employees myself from previous contact. I just know a fair bit about it, what with it being my job and all. The 'real men' argument is badly put, but it absolutely does have merit as a gauge of the personality types shift in the sport.
I disagree and though I believe there has been a shfit in terms of the nature of the sport, as in what one has to do to be successful, I don't believe one can say there has been some sort of overall personality shift for the worse. Their are a number of different personalities in the sport then, just as now, and in the future even. Obviously you feel otherwise.
posted by juiceCake at 2:59 PM on March 2, 2008
It's a huge difference and it's bafflingly dismissed.
The only difference is that Stepney went too far, and didn't end up with a job at McLaren at the end of it. It's no different to every other transfer of personnel, trust me on that, except perhaps in the manner of the data transfer. He just took the 'selling of your worth to the other team' too far and got left out in the cold. When his approach to McLaren for employment was given the cold shoulder, he tried harder and harder to sell himself until it blew up in his face.
I don't believe one can say there has been some sort of overall personality shift for the worse.
I never at any point said it was for the worse. Not at all. But the shift in predominant types of personalities is absolutely correct. The gung-ho hero's of old simply can't survive in racing as it is today and the kind of people that excel at racing now are very different from the people that excelled in years gone by. You are disagreeing with the people that consider the bygone types to be somehow superior to the more analytical types now winning. I don't hold that opinion, that's for sure. I'd hardly be wasting my time working in an industry with a diminishing value and respect for the people I train - I'd rather paint toilets.
If you are disagreeing that the personality type shift has happened at all, however, then I am afraid you are patently wrong.
posted by Brockles at 3:15 PM on March 2, 2008
The only difference is that Stepney went too far, and didn't end up with a job at McLaren at the end of it. It's no different to every other transfer of personnel, trust me on that, except perhaps in the manner of the data transfer. He just took the 'selling of your worth to the other team' too far and got left out in the cold. When his approach to McLaren for employment was given the cold shoulder, he tried harder and harder to sell himself until it blew up in his face.
I don't believe one can say there has been some sort of overall personality shift for the worse.
I never at any point said it was for the worse. Not at all. But the shift in predominant types of personalities is absolutely correct. The gung-ho hero's of old simply can't survive in racing as it is today and the kind of people that excel at racing now are very different from the people that excelled in years gone by. You are disagreeing with the people that consider the bygone types to be somehow superior to the more analytical types now winning. I don't hold that opinion, that's for sure. I'd hardly be wasting my time working in an industry with a diminishing value and respect for the people I train - I'd rather paint toilets.
If you are disagreeing that the personality type shift has happened at all, however, then I am afraid you are patently wrong.
posted by Brockles at 3:15 PM on March 2, 2008
« Older The Amber Room found? | Design and the Elastic Mind Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Fascinating links, thanks.
posted by spiderskull at 12:42 PM on February 24, 2008