The impending storm over McCain's POW record?
March 31, 2008 5:56 AM Subscribe
In 1973, John McCain wrote an extensive article about his account as a POW in Vietnam. In that article he stated that he told his captors "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." Just what the military information was given away, he has never disclosed. However this former army intelligence officer, and his researcher wife [WMV] claim the information led directly to the deaths of many other airmen including possibly their own son, and constitutes treason. A group of Vietnam Vets have formed an organization to "correct the record" of John McCain behavior as a POW. Are we witnessing the beginning of Swift Vets 2008 ?
This post was deleted for the following reason: this is not a good political post for MetaFilter. If this turns out to be something, super, otherwise saying this *might* be something and adding a bunch of wikipedia and profie page links are really not particularly excellent. -- jessamyn
This can't happen. McCain's a Republican. If anything, within two weeks the media will be talking about what a patriot he was in doing so.
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:03 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:03 AM on March 31, 2008
Even if this is the most truest thing ever, I don't want to hear it because that's not how we should choose the president.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:03 AM on March 31, 2008 [9 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 6:03 AM on March 31, 2008 [9 favorites]
I'd like to see a group of Vietnam vets form an organization dedicated to eradicating the further influence of that stupid war on our national politics.
posted by DU at 6:04 AM on March 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by DU at 6:04 AM on March 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
This will distract from the craziness of McCain's ideas.
posted by oaf at 6:07 AM on March 31, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by oaf at 6:07 AM on March 31, 2008 [4 favorites]
(Also, while I understand the idea behind "the lesser of two evils is still evil", isn't the greater of two evils even more evil? Are rightwing nutjobs really going to let Barack Hussein Osama or Hitlery Rodham Clinton in the WH just because McCain isn't Jesus?)
posted by DU at 6:08 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by DU at 6:08 AM on March 31, 2008
Are we witnessing the beginning of Swift Vets 2008 ?
Ack, God, I hope not.
posted by mwhybark at 6:09 AM on March 31, 2008
Ack, God, I hope not.
posted by mwhybark at 6:09 AM on March 31, 2008
This can't happen. McCain's a Republican.
some on the right would rather bring the whole house down rather than see a "liberal" like mccain get the nomination - and they have their own media to talk with and treat the mainstream media as liars anyway
posted by pyramid termite at 6:09 AM on March 31, 2008
some on the right would rather bring the whole house down rather than see a "liberal" like mccain get the nomination - and they have their own media to talk with and treat the mainstream media as liars anyway
posted by pyramid termite at 6:09 AM on March 31, 2008
I'd like to see a group of Vietnam vets form an organization dedicated to eradicating the further influence of that stupid Baby Boomer generation on our national politics.
posted by cmonkey at 6:11 AM on March 31, 2008 [7 favorites]
posted by cmonkey at 6:11 AM on March 31, 2008 [7 favorites]
Do you realize you're part of the problem by posting this?
Amen. You Americans just like to smear shit all over everything you profess to hold dear, don't you?
McCain's a doddering old goober and a ludicrous choice for a president, but goddamn if this kind of asinine character assassination bullshit doesn't make me sympathize with the old bastard, and want to start clobbering the dimwit douchenozzles who think it's helping anyone or anything.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:17 AM on March 31, 2008 [10 favorites]
Amen. You Americans just like to smear shit all over everything you profess to hold dear, don't you?
McCain's a doddering old goober and a ludicrous choice for a president, but goddamn if this kind of asinine character assassination bullshit doesn't make me sympathize with the old bastard, and want to start clobbering the dimwit douchenozzles who think it's helping anyone or anything.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:17 AM on March 31, 2008 [10 favorites]
A group of Vietnam Vets have formed an organization to "correct the record" of John McCain behavior as a POW.
Uh-huh. Who's bankrolling it?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:18 AM on March 31, 2008
Uh-huh. Who's bankrolling it?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:18 AM on March 31, 2008
The fundamental question of electoral politics in America is this: do we want to play nice, or do we want to win?
If the price of preventing untold further loss of American life in Iraq, Afghanistan and possibly even Iran is hurting John McCain's feelings, that is... hell, that's no price at all.
I just hope it sticks.
posted by Makoto at 6:18 AM on March 31, 2008
If the price of preventing untold further loss of American life in Iraq, Afghanistan and possibly even Iran is hurting John McCain's feelings, that is... hell, that's no price at all.
I just hope it sticks.
posted by Makoto at 6:18 AM on March 31, 2008
If the price of preventing untold further loss of American life in Iraq, Afghanistan and possibly even Iran is hurting John McCain's feelings becoming assholes who are so self-righteous that they think any means justify the ends of themselves being power and then define that as being good for America, thus guaranteeing an endless cycle of shit and manipulation and evil… hell that's no price at all!
posted by shakespeherian at 6:23 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 6:23 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
hell, that's no price at all
To some degree I agree with you, but that gets us (KEEPS us, really) in this pattern of assured mutual destruction. Part of the problem, in my ever so humble opinion, is that by the time a person makes it to the oval office they have had so much dog shit thrown at them that they are impossible to respect. There has got to be a better way, and although I don't know what that way is I know for sure that the way to stop shit-flinging is not to fling more shit.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:24 AM on March 31, 2008
To some degree I agree with you, but that gets us (KEEPS us, really) in this pattern of assured mutual destruction. Part of the problem, in my ever so humble opinion, is that by the time a person makes it to the oval office they have had so much dog shit thrown at them that they are impossible to respect. There has got to be a better way, and although I don't know what that way is I know for sure that the way to stop shit-flinging is not to fling more shit.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:24 AM on March 31, 2008
start clobbering the dimwit douchenozzles who think it's helping anyone or anything
...and then for God's sake wash your hands!
posted by Molesome at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
...and then for God's sake wash your hands!
posted by Molesome at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
You ain't seen nothing yet.
We've got 8 more months of this to endure until November.
8. More. Months.
posted by Dizzy at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
We've got 8 more months of this to endure until November.
8. More. Months.
posted by Dizzy at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
If America keeps torturing logic will it confess?
posted by srboisvert at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [12 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [12 favorites]
Actually if you look at their website there's no reason at all to take them seriously. McCain was subjected to 5 ½ years of Soviet driven "brain perversion techniques." Is he fit to be President and Commander in Chief of the military?
Ummmmmmm.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:27 AM on March 31, 2008
Ummmmmmm.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:27 AM on March 31, 2008
Actually, I'd like to know all about all the candidates, each of whom will potentially have the power to execute executive orders. I don't care what party they are from.
I'm also sick of the government being treated as if they were special and above us all. They are our public servants, and as such, these candidates are being interviewed for the job of leading the country. It's time to stop resenting people based on their party affiliation and look at them as "who's the best person for the job? Would I hire them to run my company?"
I don't know what I would have done if I'd been in a POW camp, do any of you? So this doesn't necessarily sway me one way or the other. I want to look at policies and track records, as well as overall general character. Also, I think foreign policy as well as domestic has to be a huge factor in their experience.
I'm pretty much as liberal as they come, but I won't join some Republican shit-stomping pile-on. Enough is enough: let's address the issues.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 6:28 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
I'm also sick of the government being treated as if they were special and above us all. They are our public servants, and as such, these candidates are being interviewed for the job of leading the country. It's time to stop resenting people based on their party affiliation and look at them as "who's the best person for the job? Would I hire them to run my company?"
I don't know what I would have done if I'd been in a POW camp, do any of you? So this doesn't necessarily sway me one way or the other. I want to look at policies and track records, as well as overall general character. Also, I think foreign policy as well as domestic has to be a huge factor in their experience.
I'm pretty much as liberal as they come, but I won't join some Republican shit-stomping pile-on. Enough is enough: let's address the issues.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 6:28 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
I can't decide whether the problem with the Democrats is (a) the subject of the post or (b) the people in this thread being critical of it (e.g. Makoto's). Whichever way around it is, I don't see a quick solution!
posted by dickasso at 6:29 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by dickasso at 6:29 AM on March 31, 2008
The fundamental question of electoral politics in America is this: do we want to play nice, or do we want to win?
the democrats aren't behind this - and if they were, they would be rapidly characterized as traitorous, libelous scum and end up losing votes over it
right-wing veterans are the only people who might get away with this - and i'm not even sure they will
posted by pyramid termite at 6:31 AM on March 31, 2008
the democrats aren't behind this - and if they were, they would be rapidly characterized as traitorous, libelous scum and end up losing votes over it
right-wing veterans are the only people who might get away with this - and i'm not even sure they will
posted by pyramid termite at 6:31 AM on March 31, 2008
I'd like to see a group of Vietnam vets form an organization dedicated to eradicating the further influence of that stupid war on our national politics.
What's interesting was in 2004, when you had a guy who volunteered for service, was heroic during combat running against a guy who basically got out of service by being rich and well connected. Yet, somehow military service ended up cutting against Kerry. It was ridiculous.
If you take anyone's military service, you're going to be able to make all kinds of hard to disprove claims about it.
posted by delmoi at 6:31 AM on March 31, 2008
What's interesting was in 2004, when you had a guy who volunteered for service, was heroic during combat running against a guy who basically got out of service by being rich and well connected. Yet, somehow military service ended up cutting against Kerry. It was ridiculous.
If you take anyone's military service, you're going to be able to make all kinds of hard to disprove claims about it.
posted by delmoi at 6:31 AM on March 31, 2008
Let's stop talking about character assassination and get down to business: bad web design.
Someone should frag the site of vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain (not least which for its cumbersome URL.)
Looks like a 12-year-old on meth put it up.
posted by three blind mice at 6:31 AM on March 31, 2008
Someone should frag the site of vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain (not least which for its cumbersome URL.)
Looks like a 12-year-old on meth put it up.
posted by three blind mice at 6:31 AM on March 31, 2008
There has got to be a better way, and although I don't know what that way is I know for sure that the way to stop shit-flinging is not to fling more shit.
How about choosing your presidential candidates by lottery? You could end up with an insurance adjuster from Hawaii versus a retired nurse from Alabama. It would make more sense than the current bullshit.
posted by Jimbob at 6:34 AM on March 31, 2008
How about choosing your presidential candidates by lottery? You could end up with an insurance adjuster from Hawaii versus a retired nurse from Alabama. It would make more sense than the current bullshit.
posted by Jimbob at 6:34 AM on March 31, 2008
Hell an insurance adjusted from Hawaii would make an awesome executive.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:36 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by shakespeherian at 6:36 AM on March 31, 2008
Jesus. I'm agains't McCain for president as most people on this site but calling into question what the guy did whist a pow is kinda idiotic.
It comes from the same kind of idiots who went after Senator Kerry after he supposedly took his swift boat a little to close to the Cambodian border. These Democrats should know better after 2004 elections.
posted by Po0py at 6:37 AM on March 31, 2008
It comes from the same kind of idiots who went after Senator Kerry after he supposedly took his swift boat a little to close to the Cambodian border. These Democrats should know better after 2004 elections.
posted by Po0py at 6:37 AM on March 31, 2008
Why even have one president at all? Why not elect a cabinet, which could have a rotating president month by month or something. That way, we could elect the heads of different sub-branches separately. I mean, if you think about it why should we elect the same person to run the military that we elect to run the health care 'system' or the department of Housing and Urban development?
posted by delmoi at 6:39 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by delmoi at 6:39 AM on March 31, 2008
This has been comming for over a year now. It is the same guys who went after John Kerry, Jerry Kiley and Ted Sampley. Raw Story had this last year.
posted by humanfont at 6:39 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by humanfont at 6:39 AM on March 31, 2008
Why even have one president at all?
Why even have a president at all? I often wonder this, but that may be because as a non-American I haven't quite been able to wrap my head around what a president is for and why they're necessary to do what they do. I mean, parliamentary democracies survive without them, or at least they have heads of state who do nothing but sign bills and throw dinner parties. Meanwhile, countries that have presidents with some degree of power always seem to be in the shits. By the way, good luck to Zimbabwe, you go team!
posted by Jimbob at 6:45 AM on March 31, 2008
Why even have a president at all? I often wonder this, but that may be because as a non-American I haven't quite been able to wrap my head around what a president is for and why they're necessary to do what they do. I mean, parliamentary democracies survive without them, or at least they have heads of state who do nothing but sign bills and throw dinner parties. Meanwhile, countries that have presidents with some degree of power always seem to be in the shits. By the way, good luck to Zimbabwe, you go team!
posted by Jimbob at 6:45 AM on March 31, 2008
I can totally see why people don't bother voting in the US. Who wants to participate in all this junk?
posted by chunking express at 6:45 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by chunking express at 6:45 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't want McCain to get smeared but I don't think it's a problem to have him explain further what he said so that can be fact-checked as much as possible, and then he can explain his other positions about governments that perhaps he shouldn't support. If McCain is going to run as all-American, superduper American's American, then his service should be examined for everything - the high points and the low points. Not just the high points.
These guys might be quacks but I'd still like to see him talk about what military information he gave up, if he hasn't explained already. I don't plan on voting for him but I don't see anything wrong with asking for details, since he's running off this.
posted by cashman at 6:47 AM on March 31, 2008
These guys might be quacks but I'd still like to see him talk about what military information he gave up, if he hasn't explained already. I don't plan on voting for him but I don't see anything wrong with asking for details, since he's running off this.
posted by cashman at 6:47 AM on March 31, 2008
I don't know if I'm misreading you, shakespeherian, but if you're saying, "Not being perceived as a self-righteous asshole is more important to me than people not dying," then I don't think I'm operating in the same moral universe you are.
And it's not a false dichotomy. McCain has shown willingness and indeed eagerness to widen the "War on Terror," which I think most of us here categorize as somewhere between unnecessary and downright criminal. If he wins the presidency, there's a good chance that people will die who wouldn't have died if he lost, and needlessly at that. The idea that the Democrats should play by Marquess of Queensbury rules in a street fight may soothe the conscience after the inevitable beatdown, but I think it overlooks what's on the line in this election.
In any event, it looks like we can have our cake and eat it too, if this is the work of uninformed right-wingers. Oddly enough, I'm somewhat disappointed.
posted by Makoto at 6:49 AM on March 31, 2008
And it's not a false dichotomy. McCain has shown willingness and indeed eagerness to widen the "War on Terror," which I think most of us here categorize as somewhere between unnecessary and downright criminal. If he wins the presidency, there's a good chance that people will die who wouldn't have died if he lost, and needlessly at that. The idea that the Democrats should play by Marquess of Queensbury rules in a street fight may soothe the conscience after the inevitable beatdown, but I think it overlooks what's on the line in this election.
In any event, it looks like we can have our cake and eat it too, if this is the work of uninformed right-wingers. Oddly enough, I'm somewhat disappointed.
posted by Makoto at 6:49 AM on March 31, 2008
O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.
- At last you will tell us your military secrets, John McCain! So - please begin!
OK - take this down. Salt, pepper, paprika, oregano ...
- Ah, this is some kind of code, I take it?
No ... do you know Colonel Sanders? Kentucky Fried Chicken?
- You mean ... my God. Do you ... do you know all eleven?
Yes. But quickly, get a pen. So: rosemary, thyme ...
- It's the greatest secret of the US military! And we have it! Rosemary, thyme - go on, go on! Soon we will destory the imperialist American finger-licking hegemony! HA HA HA! What's that? Sage? Really? HA HA HA! Go on, tell us them all ... !
WOULD YOU VOTE FOR A MAN WHO BETRAYED AMERICA?
Brought to you by the Family Bucket Veterans for Truth
posted by the quidnunc kid at 7:03 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
- At last you will tell us your military secrets, John McCain! So - please begin!
OK - take this down. Salt, pepper, paprika, oregano ...
- Ah, this is some kind of code, I take it?
No ... do you know Colonel Sanders? Kentucky Fried Chicken?
- You mean ... my God. Do you ... do you know all eleven?
Yes. But quickly, get a pen. So: rosemary, thyme ...
- It's the greatest secret of the US military! And we have it! Rosemary, thyme - go on, go on! Soon we will destory the imperialist American finger-licking hegemony! HA HA HA! What's that? Sage? Really? HA HA HA! Go on, tell us them all ... !
WOULD YOU VOTE FOR A MAN WHO BETRAYED AMERICA?
Brought to you by the Family Bucket Veterans for Truth
posted by the quidnunc kid at 7:03 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
I absolutely think these character-assasination tactics are ridiculous, but I never really understood how getting shot down makes one a war hero.
I was actually in Hanoi last week on vacation and stopped by the "Hanoi Hilton" where McCain, and all the other US pilots spent their days. 90% of the museum is about French Oppression, but they do have McCain's flight suit. If you believe the Propoganda, the prisoners pretty much just decorated Christmas trees and watched movies the whole time.
posted by pencroft at 7:05 AM on March 31, 2008
I was actually in Hanoi last week on vacation and stopped by the "Hanoi Hilton" where McCain, and all the other US pilots spent their days. 90% of the museum is about French Oppression, but they do have McCain's flight suit. If you believe the Propoganda, the prisoners pretty much just decorated Christmas trees and watched movies the whole time.
posted by pencroft at 7:05 AM on March 31, 2008
Not a fan of McCain's politics.
But increasingly uncomfortable with anyone minimizing what this man has been through in service to his country.
Just saying.
posted by Dizzy at 7:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
But increasingly uncomfortable with anyone minimizing what this man has been through in service to his country.
Just saying.
posted by Dizzy at 7:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
Are rightwing nutjobs really going to let Barack Hussein Osama or Hitlery Rodham Clinton in the WH just because McCain isn't Jesus?
If Jesus were running, we'd be seeing Apostles For Truth emerging with the real dirt on the motherfucker.
posted by Wolfdog at 7:26 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
If Jesus were running, we'd be seeing Apostles For Truth emerging with the real dirt on the motherfucker.
posted by Wolfdog at 7:26 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
Why even have a president at all? I often wonder this, but that may be because as a non-American I haven't quite been able to wrap my head around what a president is for and why they're necessary to do what they do. I mean, parliamentary democracies survive without them, or at least they have heads of state who do nothing but sign bills and throw dinner parties. Meanwhile, countries that have presidents with some degree of power always seem to be in the shits. By the way, good luck to Zimbabwe, you go team!
Are you asking what he does? He sets foreign policy (negotiates treaties, commands the army, appoints ambassadors), plays top manager in the federal bureaucracy (appoints judges and all kinds of federal officers, gives them orders, prepares a budget for them), and gets to veto laws he disapproves of.
Or are you asking why all those jobs need to be done by one person? Because honestly, I don't think there's an answer — it seems pretty arbitrary.
It's how they set things up back in the 1700s, and I'm sure it made sense at the time. Remember, back then the Kings of England weren't the figureheads they are now. I think it may just have seemed incomprehensible, in those days, that a country could hold together without one big guy running the show at any given moment.
(Sadly, the idea of a presidency is a pretty important part of most Americans' idea of what the country stands for. As a nation, we're suckers for the idea that one guy with a vision and a strong personality can... well, ride into town, so to speak, and clean the place up: look at all those damn cowboy movies, right? I think secretly, we like to imagine that we could be that guy given the opportunity.
So as arbitrary as the system is, there wouldn't be any political will to change it, and so there's basically no discussion of alternatives. Reform-minded policy geeks here talk about changing the way we elect the president, not changing or eliminating the office itself.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:27 AM on March 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
Are you asking what he does? He sets foreign policy (negotiates treaties, commands the army, appoints ambassadors), plays top manager in the federal bureaucracy (appoints judges and all kinds of federal officers, gives them orders, prepares a budget for them), and gets to veto laws he disapproves of.
Or are you asking why all those jobs need to be done by one person? Because honestly, I don't think there's an answer — it seems pretty arbitrary.
It's how they set things up back in the 1700s, and I'm sure it made sense at the time. Remember, back then the Kings of England weren't the figureheads they are now. I think it may just have seemed incomprehensible, in those days, that a country could hold together without one big guy running the show at any given moment.
(Sadly, the idea of a presidency is a pretty important part of most Americans' idea of what the country stands for. As a nation, we're suckers for the idea that one guy with a vision and a strong personality can... well, ride into town, so to speak, and clean the place up: look at all those damn cowboy movies, right? I think secretly, we like to imagine that we could be that guy given the opportunity.
So as arbitrary as the system is, there wouldn't be any political will to change it, and so there's basically no discussion of alternatives. Reform-minded policy geeks here talk about changing the way we elect the president, not changing or eliminating the office itself.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:27 AM on March 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
Er, pretend I'd phrased that bit about the British monarchy in a more gender-neutral way. I was trying to compare the power the king had then with the power the queen's got now.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:29 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:29 AM on March 31, 2008
These Democrats should know better after 2004 elections. Who says it's the democrats??? Maybe the right wing, really rich, powers that be just don't like McCain?
posted by Mastercheddaar at 7:30 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by Mastercheddaar at 7:30 AM on March 31, 2008
I'm not a fan of McCain's either but I believe that he chose to fight for something he believed in and that I respect. I don't care if the report in the FPP is true or not but it is one more example of the kind of political hackery that turns my stomach. Sometimes I hate free speech.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:32 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by bluesky43 at 7:32 AM on March 31, 2008
If you believe the Propoganda, the prisoners pretty much just decorated Christmas trees and watched movies the whole time.
Yeah, but decorating Christmas trees in July? Totally crazy-making.
And those movies? "How to Stuff a Wild Bikini" over and over.
posted by klangklangston at 7:33 AM on March 31, 2008
Yeah, but decorating Christmas trees in July? Totally crazy-making.
And those movies? "How to Stuff a Wild Bikini" over and over.
posted by klangklangston at 7:33 AM on March 31, 2008
The fundamental question of electoral politics in America is this: do we want to play nice, or do we want to win?
If you have to win by tricking people, there's no point to having, or professing to believe in, a democratic system of government. In such conditions, the good ideas don't necessarily triumph over bad ones; rather, success will be determined based on playing the lowest card in a deck of public deceptions.
If he wins the presidency, there's a good chance that people will die who wouldn't have died if he lost, and needlessly at that.
So? People suffer because of trial verdicts; does that entitle a lawyer to violate rules of evidence and say anything to a jury?
posted by kid ichorous at 7:34 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you have to win by tricking people, there's no point to having, or professing to believe in, a democratic system of government. In such conditions, the good ideas don't necessarily triumph over bad ones; rather, success will be determined based on playing the lowest card in a deck of public deceptions.
If he wins the presidency, there's a good chance that people will die who wouldn't have died if he lost, and needlessly at that.
So? People suffer because of trial verdicts; does that entitle a lawyer to violate rules of evidence and say anything to a jury?
posted by kid ichorous at 7:34 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
The meme that Swift Boat-style attacks are bad is now a more pervasive meme than the one originally planted by the Swift Boat attacks. So if this character assassination is attempted, people will see through it and it will backfire immensely.
The narrative against McCain should be:
1) Four more years of Bush policies and wacky regime change adventures
2) Still says Iraq was a great idea, comfortable with 10,000 years of war
3) Power-hungry hypocrite with a temper
4) He old
in that order
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:38 AM on March 31, 2008
The narrative against McCain should be:
1) Four more years of Bush policies and wacky regime change adventures
2) Still says Iraq was a great idea, comfortable with 10,000 years of war
3) Power-hungry hypocrite with a temper
4) He old
in that order
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:38 AM on March 31, 2008
John McCain is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:41 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 7:41 AM on March 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
Part of me says this is bullshit.
Part of me says that two wrongs make a right - in this case, the Democratic president we should have had.
Part of me says that what they are going to do to Obama will make this seem like third grade recess.
Swiftboating wins with 67% of the vote!
posted by Saucy Intruder at 7:41 AM on March 31, 2008
Part of me says that two wrongs make a right - in this case, the Democratic president we should have had.
Part of me says that what they are going to do to Obama will make this seem like third grade recess.
Swiftboating wins with 67% of the vote!
posted by Saucy Intruder at 7:41 AM on March 31, 2008
If you believe the Propoganda, the prisoners pretty much just decorated Christmas trees and watched movies the whole time.
I can't tell if you're joking.
You raise a legitimate, debatable point that getting shot down doesn't make you a hero, but there is no doubt that he was tortured for years as a POW. The man can't lift his arms because of the torture he endured.
posted by ibmcginty at 7:54 AM on March 31, 2008
I can't tell if you're joking.
You raise a legitimate, debatable point that getting shot down doesn't make you a hero, but there is no doubt that he was tortured for years as a POW. The man can't lift his arms because of the torture he endured.
posted by ibmcginty at 7:54 AM on March 31, 2008
I was flipping channels about a week before the Texas primaries and came across an ad run by these folks. It wasn't until it was over that I realized that I hadn't stumbled across The Daily Show or SNL. While it was on I was thinking whatever show I was watching needed new writers because it wasn't funny at all, it was just poorly done.
posted by beowulf573 at 7:58 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by beowulf573 at 7:58 AM on March 31, 2008
The man can't lift his arms because of the torture he endured.
could be worse I guess
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:00 AM on March 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
could be worse I guess
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:00 AM on March 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
I mostly think if you're trained as a combat aviator, your higher ups pretty much assume that you'll be tortured if you are caught behind enemy lines, and they don't expect ANYONE to withstand torture indefinitely. Which is why everyone operates on a need to know basis. Particularly at his level... what, was he a lieutenant at the time? If he knew anything at all about strategic plans or force strengths and locations, it probably wasn't very valuable.
This whole thing is sickening and makes those of on left look every as bad as the amoral weasels on the right.
posted by psmealey at 8:01 AM on March 31, 2008
This whole thing is sickening and makes those of on left look every as bad as the amoral weasels on the right.
posted by psmealey at 8:01 AM on March 31, 2008
In third grade recess a kid with a broken thumb almost killed another kid with his cast. This may end up looking like third grade recess in comparison, but third grade recess can give you serious brain damage.
posted by MNDZ at 8:01 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by MNDZ at 8:01 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
You raise a legitimate, debatable point that getting shot down doesn't make you a hero, but there is no doubt that he was tortured for years as a POW. The man can't lift his arms because of the torture he endured.
Uh, no. He can't lift his arms over his head because he didn't get proper medical treatment right after his crash.
posted by delmoi at 8:02 AM on March 31, 2008
Uh, no. He can't lift his arms over his head because he didn't get proper medical treatment right after his crash.
posted by delmoi at 8:02 AM on March 31, 2008
Something I've never understood about McCain: his plane goes down and he's injured, while injured he's beaten etc.; he spends two years in solitary confinement; he is tortured to his breaking point and routinely beaten, he can't raise his arms above his head from the abuse he suffered; this treatment goes on for over five years and when he comes back he's a celebrity and hero of sorts but his career stalls in part because his body was such a mess he didn't qualify for a sea command. But the main point is 5.5 years of torture. Yet I never see any mention of psychiatric treatment. This man cannot possibly be sane (not that sanity has ever been a necessary attribute for American presidents). Did he ever receive anything more than physical therapy and no one bothers to mention it or what?
posted by Grod at 8:06 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by Grod at 8:06 AM on March 31, 2008
Why even have a president at all?
You're kidding right? You really want the executive branch to be a committee?!?
Just what we need: TWO congresses. sheesh.
posted by tadellin at 8:07 AM on March 31, 2008
You're kidding right? You really want the executive branch to be a committee?!?
Just what we need: TWO congresses. sheesh.
posted by tadellin at 8:07 AM on March 31, 2008
I can't tell if you're joking.
My point was, that at the Museum in Hanoi, the only pictures of the American prisoners are of them hanging out cooking turkeys together or watching movies. But, when you look at the condition of the prison and the surrounding areas, even now..it's pretty obvious they weren't sleeping on featherbeds.
I have no doubt that he was tortured. It was commendable that he endured many more years than he had to and did not play his family trump card. Experienced and brave? Absolutely. War Hero? I just think the term is overused.
posted by pencroft at 8:07 AM on March 31, 2008
My point was, that at the Museum in Hanoi, the only pictures of the American prisoners are of them hanging out cooking turkeys together or watching movies. But, when you look at the condition of the prison and the surrounding areas, even now..it's pretty obvious they weren't sleeping on featherbeds.
I have no doubt that he was tortured. It was commendable that he endured many more years than he had to and did not play his family trump card. Experienced and brave? Absolutely. War Hero? I just think the term is overused.
posted by pencroft at 8:07 AM on March 31, 2008
The current administration is torturing prisoners and McCain is not only not working for impeachment (or better yet, war crimes trials), he's actively courting the same base by allying himself with Bush/Cheney.
You can argue all day about whether being tortured is sufficient grounds to be President, but I would argue that being de facto pro-torture is sufficient grounds to be disqualified from the office.
posted by DU at 8:08 AM on March 31, 2008
You can argue all day about whether being tortured is sufficient grounds to be President, but I would argue that being de facto pro-torture is sufficient grounds to be disqualified from the office.
posted by DU at 8:08 AM on March 31, 2008
I was actually in Hanoi last week on vacation and stopped by the "Hanoi Hilton" where McCain, and all the other US pilots spent their days.
In David Foster Wallace's essay "Up, Simba", about McCain's 2000 campaign, he says that there's a statue of McCain by the lake where he was shot down with the inscription "John McCan: famous air pirate" [sic], but I've seen no confirmation of this on the internet or elsewhere. Has anyone ever heard of or seen this?
posted by gsteff at 8:11 AM on March 31, 2008
In David Foster Wallace's essay "Up, Simba", about McCain's 2000 campaign, he says that there's a statue of McCain by the lake where he was shot down with the inscription "John McCan: famous air pirate" [sic], but I've seen no confirmation of this on the internet or elsewhere. Has anyone ever heard of or seen this?
posted by gsteff at 8:11 AM on March 31, 2008
This is your handgun. You bought your handgun to protect your family. To protect your children. You keep your handgun on the top shelf of your closet, where you can always reach it in case you need to protect your children.
This is John McCain. John McCain says he would protect America in a crisis. But can he really protect your children? John McCain can't lift his arms above his head. John McCain can't reach your handgun.
John McCain can't protect your children.
Brought to you by Ball-and-Socket Joint Specialists for Truth.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:13 AM on March 31, 2008 [5 favorites]
This is John McCain. John McCain says he would protect America in a crisis. But can he really protect your children? John McCain can't lift his arms above his head. John McCain can't reach your handgun.
John McCain can't protect your children.
Brought to you by Ball-and-Socket Joint Specialists for Truth.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:13 AM on March 31, 2008 [5 favorites]
This swift boat shit will simply smear the Democrats, leaving McCain cleaner for it. Smart tactic.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:14 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:14 AM on March 31, 2008
an organization dedicated to eradicating the further influence of that stupid Baby Boomer generation
yeah, by eliminating some of their loudmouth know-it-all offspring.
posted by quonsar at 8:18 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
yeah, by eliminating some of their loudmouth know-it-all offspring.
posted by quonsar at 8:18 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
You know, after watching the second link I was left pondering how the single most dangerous element in American politics is the Crazy Half-Informed Old Coot. That's your lowest common denominator right there.
Just try to think of anything bad that the U.S. government has done in the last 40 years and imagine that there's not a group of half demented retired military codgers driving around in R.V.s plastered with American flags looking on approvingly.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:19 AM on March 31, 2008
Just try to think of anything bad that the U.S. government has done in the last 40 years and imagine that there's not a group of half demented retired military codgers driving around in R.V.s plastered with American flags looking on approvingly.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:19 AM on March 31, 2008
You really want the executive branch to be a committee?!?
As I said, it ain't unusual, you know. I could just as well ask, you want the executive branch to be just one guy?!? What if he's a complete fucking lunatic?
I mean, not that I'm expecting you to change anything. I can't even sell Americans on the idea of instant-runoff voting, or having more than two parties, or amending your constitution to clarify those clauses you're always arguing about. So, keep your president. I just can't see the things ever improving beyond petty bullshit like this post is about.
posted by Jimbob at 8:20 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
As I said, it ain't unusual, you know. I could just as well ask, you want the executive branch to be just one guy?!? What if he's a complete fucking lunatic?
I mean, not that I'm expecting you to change anything. I can't even sell Americans on the idea of instant-runoff voting, or having more than two parties, or amending your constitution to clarify those clauses you're always arguing about. So, keep your president. I just can't see the things ever improving beyond petty bullshit like this post is about.
posted by Jimbob at 8:20 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
What a joke. "OMG he gave out military info to stay alive and ate Communist tea and cakes [and stayed in solitary confinement in Vietnamese prisons something like four years longer than he'd have had to if he were really a collaborator, but we're not mentioning that part]!" Convincing, indeed.
News flash for these assholes: the time to have done something about McCain's Code of Conduct violations was thirty years ago, not now. Seeing as how the Navy was fine with it then and now, this is nothing but conveniently-timed sour grapes. Swift Boats indeed. I'm no fan of John "4eva war 4 oil" McCain's political career, but come on.
posted by vorfeed at 8:22 AM on March 31, 2008
News flash for these assholes: the time to have done something about McCain's Code of Conduct violations was thirty years ago, not now. Seeing as how the Navy was fine with it then and now, this is nothing but conveniently-timed sour grapes. Swift Boats indeed. I'm no fan of John "4eva war 4 oil" McCain's political career, but come on.
posted by vorfeed at 8:22 AM on March 31, 2008
You know what? This whole moralism where Democrats hem and haw and decide that they want to take the moral high road and not "sink to the level" of the Republicans?
You fuckers understand why you keep losing elections, right?
Everyone tells pollsters that they hate politicians going negative. But you know what? They can tell pollsters that all they want, every political strategist worth even a little bit of his/her salary knows damn well that going negative fucking works. And people respond to this sort of nonsense. Joe Random Voter doesn't give a shit about the policies; he doesn't really know what the positions are beyond whatever random soundbite he happened to hear in the news or read about in an email forward. What he cares about is his emotional response to the candidate, and years of slimy Republican campaigning and character assassination have demonstrated that while these tactics may be/feel morally problematic, goddammit they work.
The Democrats have this bizarre notion that they can stick to the "high ground" and talk about "issues" and avoid making emotional appeals; that's bullshit and nobody over the age of ten has any right to believe in it. That's why we hear inanities from the Clinton camp about the "cult of Obama"- to a lot of members of the Democratic Party, who turn up their noses at anything other than discussing the issues, the idea that one would attempt to rile up one's constituents' emotions is scary and weird.
I never again in my life want to see a Republican with any sort of power; they've demonstrated that a Republican with power is like a small child who's just found Daddy's gun and wants to play with his new toy. So enough with the moralism and the self-sabotage and the hemming and hawing. These kinds of tactics make you feel funny and you don't want to do them? Hey, wonderful, but stop whining about how you keep losing elections when you're not willing to fight for them.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
You fuckers understand why you keep losing elections, right?
Everyone tells pollsters that they hate politicians going negative. But you know what? They can tell pollsters that all they want, every political strategist worth even a little bit of his/her salary knows damn well that going negative fucking works. And people respond to this sort of nonsense. Joe Random Voter doesn't give a shit about the policies; he doesn't really know what the positions are beyond whatever random soundbite he happened to hear in the news or read about in an email forward. What he cares about is his emotional response to the candidate, and years of slimy Republican campaigning and character assassination have demonstrated that while these tactics may be/feel morally problematic, goddammit they work.
The Democrats have this bizarre notion that they can stick to the "high ground" and talk about "issues" and avoid making emotional appeals; that's bullshit and nobody over the age of ten has any right to believe in it. That's why we hear inanities from the Clinton camp about the "cult of Obama"- to a lot of members of the Democratic Party, who turn up their noses at anything other than discussing the issues, the idea that one would attempt to rile up one's constituents' emotions is scary and weird.
I never again in my life want to see a Republican with any sort of power; they've demonstrated that a Republican with power is like a small child who's just found Daddy's gun and wants to play with his new toy. So enough with the moralism and the self-sabotage and the hemming and hawing. These kinds of tactics make you feel funny and you don't want to do them? Hey, wonderful, but stop whining about how you keep losing elections when you're not willing to fight for them.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:25 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
People who are acting righteously indignant about this coming from the left/Democrats, need to check out this Raw Story article (linked to by humanfront much higher up in the thread, but relinked and quoted here for emphasis):
Two familiar faces will soon be dogging Senator John McCain on the campaign trail, as activist Vietnam Veterans Jerry Kiley and Ted Sampley resume a campaign they have conducted for years against the Arizona Republican and former prisoner of war....Kiley, as well as Ted Sampley, a North Carolina-based publisher who has been harshly criticizing McCain for more than 10 years. Sampley teamed up with Kiley in 2004 to found a similar group that targeted Senator John Kerry as he ran for president.
Yes, I know: this is messed up no matter who's behind it. However, I was deeply concerned by the automatic assumption that this must be the Democrats playing dirtyball, because what I hate most about election years here on Mefi is the "I'm pretty far to the left/pretty liberal but" crowd and its tendency to defend the Republican candidate, claiming that any and every shortcoming of his or attack on him will actually help him with the "normal, folksy" Americans, while bitching and moaning about anything the Democrats do that's less than 100% absolutely brilliant strategically, ethically, and morally.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:27 AM on March 31, 2008 [4 favorites]
Two familiar faces will soon be dogging Senator John McCain on the campaign trail, as activist Vietnam Veterans Jerry Kiley and Ted Sampley resume a campaign they have conducted for years against the Arizona Republican and former prisoner of war....Kiley, as well as Ted Sampley, a North Carolina-based publisher who has been harshly criticizing McCain for more than 10 years. Sampley teamed up with Kiley in 2004 to found a similar group that targeted Senator John Kerry as he ran for president.
Yes, I know: this is messed up no matter who's behind it. However, I was deeply concerned by the automatic assumption that this must be the Democrats playing dirtyball, because what I hate most about election years here on Mefi is the "I'm pretty far to the left/pretty liberal but" crowd and its tendency to defend the Republican candidate, claiming that any and every shortcoming of his or attack on him will actually help him with the "normal, folksy" Americans, while bitching and moaning about anything the Democrats do that's less than 100% absolutely brilliant strategically, ethically, and morally.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:27 AM on March 31, 2008 [4 favorites]
This whole thing is sickening and makes those of on left look every as bad as the amoral weasels on the right.
I think that was kind of the point.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 8:29 AM on March 31, 2008
I think that was kind of the point.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 8:29 AM on March 31, 2008
I hope to see these pigs pull the same stunt at the GOP convention.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:31 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:31 AM on March 31, 2008
You fuckers understand why you keep losing elections, right?
i understand there was a time when good governance was considered even more important than winning elections - but today's parties have simply settled for what they can accomplish, i suppose
posted by pyramid termite at 8:33 AM on March 31, 2008
i understand there was a time when good governance was considered even more important than winning elections - but today's parties have simply settled for what they can accomplish, i suppose
posted by pyramid termite at 8:33 AM on March 31, 2008
i understand there was a time when good governance was considered even more important than winning elections
Good governance starts after winning elections. If you're not willing to do what it takes to win elections, none of your big ideas about what constitutes good governance are worth a damn thing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:41 AM on March 31, 2008
Good governance starts after winning elections. If you're not willing to do what it takes to win elections, none of your big ideas about what constitutes good governance are worth a damn thing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:41 AM on March 31, 2008
I don't think Democrats should never go negative, it's just that when they do it in the same way Republicans do, it never works. It always kind of comes across as sniveling about technicalities (like the whole aWol thing that never got any traction) rather than anything really damaging. Republicans basically call their their opponents cowards (Carter, McGovern) and fags (Kerry), and this plays really well to their intolerant base.
I think the subtle stuff based on a kernel of truth is what works for Democrats. It makes the Republicans feel ashamed of their candidate. I think for example, the anecdote where George H W Bush outed himself as being an effete out of touch blue-blood for not knowing what the price of a gallon of milk was, was tremendously effective for Clinton. It worked for Clinton because he exuded regular guy-ness.
Contrast this to the story that ran when Bush ran against Dukakis four years earlier. Apparently, Bush left his co-pilot or some other comrade behind (I don't remember the exactly details), when his plaen crashed into the Pacific in WWII. All that did was re-enforce that Bush was a fighter pilot, which was on balance a huge a positive as his biggest negative was the perception that he was a wimp.
This story will have the same effect on McCain, emphasizing his toughness in living through 5+ years of torture. The only one that benefits from that is McCain.
If they really want to get McCain, they need to play on his age, his pig-headedness or his lack of intelligence. I think it would work to cast him as the second coming of George W Bush.
posted by psmealey at 8:47 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think the subtle stuff based on a kernel of truth is what works for Democrats. It makes the Republicans feel ashamed of their candidate. I think for example, the anecdote where George H W Bush outed himself as being an effete out of touch blue-blood for not knowing what the price of a gallon of milk was, was tremendously effective for Clinton. It worked for Clinton because he exuded regular guy-ness.
Contrast this to the story that ran when Bush ran against Dukakis four years earlier. Apparently, Bush left his co-pilot or some other comrade behind (I don't remember the exactly details), when his plaen crashed into the Pacific in WWII. All that did was re-enforce that Bush was a fighter pilot, which was on balance a huge a positive as his biggest negative was the perception that he was a wimp.
This story will have the same effect on McCain, emphasizing his toughness in living through 5+ years of torture. The only one that benefits from that is McCain.
If they really want to get McCain, they need to play on his age, his pig-headedness or his lack of intelligence. I think it would work to cast him as the second coming of George W Bush.
posted by psmealey at 8:47 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
Good governance starts after winning elections.
only if you have candidates who are willing to govern for all americans, not just the ones who vote for them - a candidate who practices divisive campaigning will practice divisive governance
and THAT is why we haven't had good governance in this country for decades
we will of course keep electing demagogues and dickweeds until we realize this - i suppose i should be thankful that we actually have a chance at electing someone who understands this
posted by pyramid termite at 8:49 AM on March 31, 2008
only if you have candidates who are willing to govern for all americans, not just the ones who vote for them - a candidate who practices divisive campaigning will practice divisive governance
and THAT is why we haven't had good governance in this country for decades
we will of course keep electing demagogues and dickweeds until we realize this - i suppose i should be thankful that we actually have a chance at electing someone who understands this
posted by pyramid termite at 8:49 AM on March 31, 2008
America makes democracy look bad. It's what we do, from elections through policy. Simple as that.
posted by Ragma at 8:52 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Ragma at 8:52 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
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